They’ve already been walking it back since Marvel bought Fox, they have a paternal relationship Magneto again, and just like Franklin Richards not being a Mutant has just been retconned by his own power, I’m guessing we’ll get something similar relating to back Wanda more than likely.
> they have a paternal relationship Magneto again
Ironically Magneto never had that paternal relationship with Wanda. Wanda's most warm moments with Magneto has come AFTER the retcon.
I personally think Wanda altered reality to make it so she is no longer Magneto’s child. That way she was Magneto’s child, isn’t currently, and it fits her personality.
Oh sure Wanda takes the X gene from millions of people and she’s a monster Jean Grey meanwhile annihilated an entire solar system and she gets to be part of the ruling class of the ethnostate
I think one more day is worse but I still think this is bad.
Also Franklin going from being an omega level mutant to not just because the writer doesn’t want to deal with that.
Its not the WORST decision ever but like...thats only because of all the dumb things that Marvel has done over the years.
Avengers 200
OMD
Heroes Reborn
The list could go on...
Oh god this shit.... They have only done that cause X-Men right was still with Fox, yeah super just go and change literally the origin story of two important characters.
Good luck to do a better movie than X-Men 2 or DOFP
Wanda and Pietro were a weird case of the movie rights being held jointly by both Fox and Marvel due to their wacky comics history (mutants who debuted in X-Men but who very quickly became long-term Avengers characters governed by the Avengers office rather than the X-Office). The rights to the term "Mutant" were a part of the Fox license though, which is why Wanda and Pietro were able to be used in the MCU but weren't able to be mutants. At the time, Ike Perlmutter had a fixation on trying to devalue the X-Men properties in an effort to harm Fox's license, because he is, as the kids say, a bit of a dick. This led to the period where the Inhumans were pushed heavily, the X-Men were minimized, and Wanda and Pietro were changed to no longer be mutants so that they aligned with the MCU versions and not the Fox versions. Since Magneto was a part of the Fox licence he was also off the table.
Of course, the Inhumans television show ended up being critically panned hot garbage, the comics push to popularize the Inhumans over Mutants didn't go nearly as well as was hoped, and eventually the Fox license was brought back to Marvel Studios, rendering the entire exercise pointless. But for a brief moment in time, one petty executive was really able to stick it to the competition I guess.
By God were the Inhumans unbearable in that show.
Pro tip: if your superhero protagonist is going to be a King, make them at least as charismatic as T'Challa or Namor. If they're going to be mostly mute, make them very phyisically expressive (Dragon Prince did this right!).
And Black ~~Adam~~Bolt sucking was the least of the problems in the show.
In the comics, Kamala ~~Harris~~Khan had her origin story under that regime, which I remember confused me immensely. But in practice the Inhumans felt like a distant non-entity. And Medusa was just this generic authority figure, might as well have been Princess Celestia for all the fucks that were given.
Right? And if your main protagonist's superpower is controlling her hair, don't shave her head to save on the visual effects budget. It will end up seeming really, really stupid.
Kamala being an Inhuman was one of the greatest accidents to ever happen. She was force to not be part of the Xmen which kept her as her own entity entirely, while they didn't want to actually include her in and Inhumans stuff because they suck. If Kamala had started as a mutant (despite that she was obviously imagined as one) I doubt she would have shot into the spotlight like she did.
Good for her. Yeah, other mutants tend to get swallowed into the black hole of drama that is the Summers/Xavier/Logan/Lehnherr/Darkhölme Family Tree. Entertaining though this may be, new stars tend to get devoured and discarded by the maelstrom at a depressing rate. Hell, they even brought back the OG XMen through time travel rather than let the newbies shine. *'All-New* X-Men' my ass.
>Pro tip: if your superhero protagonist is going to be a King, make them at least as charismatic as T'Challa or Namor. If they're going to be mostly mute, make them very phyisically expressive (Dragon Prince did this right!).
Black Bolt was pretty good in MoM.
I’m glad Anson Mount got a little piece of MCU royalty after the disaster of the Inhumans show, and that he then got a truly great franchise role over at Strange New Worlds.
Because the Marvel Studios wanted to use Wanda & Pietro for their movies/TV but Marvel Comics under strict orders from Ike Perlmutter (may the fucker burn in hell) to forbid any mutants from being used due to their competitors Fox having the rights to mutants and the X-Men. Hence this "Wanda & Pietro aren't mutants" bs to get around the embargo.
Cause Disney didn't have rights to X-Men at the time and they wanted Pietro and Wanda in Avengers movie.
So comics had to change the backstory to match them not being mutants because it was trademarked to Marvel and Fox at the time.
When in doubt blame Ike Perlmutter. He messed with so many things in the comics all because they didn't have one set of movie rights or another and was being spiteful
Yeah, after 50+ years and two major X-men stories - Days of Future Past and Onslaught - relying heavily on Franklin Richards being a mutant and suddenly he's not one. What a fucking joke.
I always assumed that what Reed whispered to Xavier at the second Hellfire gala had something to do with Franklin.
Honestly the whole Fantastic Four/X-Men miniseries made the X-Men out to be some weird child snatching cult by trying to emotionally manipulate Franklin into running away from his parents.
The implication was that or a threat but they did actually reveal how Reed did it during one of the post-mutant Ms. Marvel runs (something about how being an Inhuman masks the X-gene).
And at the end it just ends up "Actually Franklin you aren't a mutant. You aren't special enough for our island".
All that effort taken to get him on the island and then nothing.
Though now I wonder what it was like for non superhero parents who had children that were mutants.
I think Reed threatened Xavior in some way to get him to sever ties with Franklin
We know that Reed made a bargain with Kitty to regain the memories of what Xavier took from him and it didn't take much for Reed to "regain" his memories about how to mask the X-gene when Rasputin IV went rooting around in his head.
My theory is that Reed created some sort of anti-mutant tech and threatened to release it into the wild if Xavior didn't make some excuse to keep Franklin off Krakoa.
This. This is why I don’t like the Krakoan era. Not because I have a problem with the island. Or really even the resurrections . It’s the X-men acting like horny cultists.
Yeah Cyclops straight up telling Reed and Sue that Franklin has "family" after what he went through with Nathan as a baby left a bad taste in my mouth?
I thought the point was going to be that Xavier, magneto and Moira were altering the mutants personalities to keep them more in line. The horn cultist thing was like a side effect. I thought thats why kurt was starting to question his faith after everything he's been through. Then they just never did anything with it.
After rereading HOX/POX, it seems like Hickman was writing it that way. It was a creepy cult-ish ethnostate, The panel with Xavier walking sassily around the resurrected naked mutants is so weird to me.
It's all clicking. Krakoa would have been its own downfall. ORCHIS was still a Hickman creation, but really it would have been internal fighting and mutants questioning the morality of the island, as well as other mutants wanting to take over, what would have weakened it brutally. Sinister and Apocalypse as authorities? Come on!
It's actually already been undone sorta. Franklin altered his own reality to take away his powers so he can live a normal life. Every birthday he gets his powers and memories back and can choose to keep them or take them away again. So he is technically a mutant still, just not currently by choice.
I came here to say this too. Mags is my favorite character, and I hated that xorn ended up being magneto. Then I hated that xorn pretended or believed himself to be magneto. Yucky.
No no, Xorn as Magneto Is brilliant and it's not a retcon, it's clearly a twist Morrison had planned all along. I love how Morrison's magneto is a twisted and self centered asshole. The way the character evolved now, going from noble villain to antihero to just hero, that reading couldn't work anymore, but as a way to critique Magneto's writing as "noble villain" it was genius and fun.
I enjoyed everything about Wolverine Origins but Romulus. I like mystery as a component of wolverines story but the reveal of a new master manipulator BEHIND IT ALL…sucked ass.
Like I actually like Romulus’s design and premise but in a very ironic and over the top way. The issue is we’re supposed to take him seriously. If there was a retcon with him essentially saying “yeah I made everything I did and told Logan up just to see what he’d do lmao” I don’t doubt that it would work.
Honestly, I look back at the whole Romulus thing and see so much missed potential. It could have been a really interesting addition to Wolverine’s lore and mythos, but they just blew past that for what they chose to go with instead.
Most of Austen’s run I try to pretend never happened, but Angel’s “mutants don’t get AIDS” thing really didn’t sit right with me. It just felt extremely tone deaf and unnecessary, which was the running theme of Austen’s run.
I absolutely hate when writers shit over real-life suffering of so many people for the sake of stupid jokes. Did you know that it's also Marvel canon that Wakanda has the cure of cancer, but doesn't share with the rest of the world because other nations would find a way to weaponise it?
It's also more annoying if you understand cancer and have lost loved ones to it. That's not how cancer works. It's a whole class of diseases with a tremendous variety of causes. There's certainly no one size fits all solution for it. Whenever anyone casually spouts off about the "cure for cancer" it really drives me insane. It's like saying we developed a deathproof vest.
I mean, I buy some mutants not being able to catch or transmit the HIV virus. I can buy that, that tracks. But all of them being immune to it? Nope, that's too much.
It would have made sense if Angel said he couldn’t, due to his healing powers or whatever Angel/Demon mutant nonsense Austen was trying to push, but no mutants? Stupid.
There are tons of mutants with healing factors who logically should have a much harder time getting sick. But also logically, there should be a few who have the right genetics to get sick. Fuck, what if a mutant who is also a bat person gets it? Like, they don't get sick themselves, but it incubated and mutates into something worse?
It was right when Angel learned he had blood-based healing power, that needed a live transfusion to work. Someone made a comment asking if Angel was worried about getting AIDS, and then that garbage came tumbling out of his mouth.
They bent over backwards and forwards to make the Inhumans really something just so they could set it up for the MCU. Then the Inhumans tv show was a bust and we’ve now just got a good 5 years of random Inhuman-centric events.
That one panel from the 60s where Xavier thinks he's in love with Jean, and anything that references it.
Laura being anything less than like 97% genetically Logan. It makes her so much less interesting to say she's more of a biological daughter than an imperfect clone.
Okay, so I am way, way, WAY overthinking this, but I have never liked or understood the whole "imperfect" clone thing and *especially* clones that are another gender. Like, at what point does an altered clone become a genetically engineered daughter?
It's one of those sci-fi concepts that makes my brain hurt. I just think of her as Lil' Wolverine and move on...
Honestly, I think that genetically any gender-swapped clone pretty much has to be either potentially unhealthy or essentially a child. In this case the sample they had of Logan's DNA had a damaged Y chromosome, meaning they used the X, hence Laura being female. However, double up on a single X chromosome can lead to all sorts of possible complications or biological/cognitive problems, which seems like a bad idea for a super soldier assassin. The only way to (relatively) ensure a healthy "clone" would be to use Logan's X chromosome along with another healthy chromosome and hope that the desired characteristics are both expressed from Logan's DNA as well as contained on that chromosome in the first place. Going the other way - a female original to a male clone - I think would absolutely necessitate a Y chromosome from somewhere else. That's why I wasn't really shocked by Laura being effectively Logan's daughter. Really the most shocking thing is that with how often Logan gets into bar fights or gets cut open by supervillains that they could just go get a fresh DNA sample off a pool cue or broken beer bottle. Heck, maybe pay some of his enemies to just tear off a hunk and hightail it.
The original origin story **as I've always remembered it** was that Logan's Y chromosome was too damaged to replicate so they duplicated his X chromosome.
That's one chromosome pair out of 23 that's not the same between Laura and Logan, but Laura's two X chromosomes are identical and therefore identical Logan's one X chromosome. Let's take this to mean 45/46 chromosomes are the same = nearly 98%.
The critical thing for your question is that 100% of Laura's DNA is Logan's DNA (so in that sense she's a clone), but Laura doesn't have 100% of Logan's DNA (so in that sense, she's not a clone). This is where I'd put the limit. As long as 100% of the subject's DNA is from the target, it's fair to say the subject is a clone, and if it's not one to one, they're an imperfect clone of the target. If they're not one to one *and* it's simultaneously true that 100% of their DNA is from the target but they don't have 100% of the target's DNA, then they can be (in science fiction, at least) an opposite sex clone.
>at what point does an altered clone become a genetically engineered daughter?
Well, Jurassic Park supplemented the DNA of dinosaurs with frogs and they're widely considered to be cloned dinosaurs, so for consistency with the most famous cloning science fiction franchise I guess we should say "some considerable percentage of the subject's DNA is not the target's DNA". However, the way I just approached the question, the subject becomes a child of the target whenever less than 100% of their DNA is from the target.
>especially clones that are another gender
That one is much easier to explain: epigenetics, no further detail required.
Well no, you're not wrong. It's basically a semantic difference but what the two things imply is different. In the end, we're all just genetic material, it's just that most people are a 50/50 mix of their parents, and most people's parents created them the conventional way.
What I don't like about it is it attempts to reframe Laura into the daughter of Logan and Sarah: two people who never knew each other and never consented to have a child together. What Laura IS is fucked up, and that's the point- she rises above it. Logan wasn't her dad and Sarah wasn't her mom. Logan was an unwilling and unknowing genetic material donor and Sarah was a surrogate who caught feelings and did the right thing AFTER doing the horrific thing of creating a person as a weapon.
I think of Laura referring to Sarah as her mom is her way of coping with the truth, which is fine. Then throwing "oh actually some of Sarah's dna is in you so she was your real mommy after all" undercuts not her whole story but certainly aspects of it. Sorry, I do ramble. If I ever have to do a filibuster, a lot of government people are gonna hear a lot of facts and opinions about Laura Kinney.
Agreed on the Xavier and Jean thing. Like, it was one panel in one random issue of the book that is probably otherwise unconsequential, but then Mark fucking Waid had to come in, bring it back for a massive X-Men event and help completely derail the character forever after that point.
She was Logans clone for years.
Also I don’t have a problem with "Laura is 93% Logan but Sarah patched up the missing DNA with her own" but making her Sarah and Logans biological daughter changes what she was.
It also changes Sarahs relationship to her to some extent as Laura is no longer a clone she made to be a weapon but grew to care for as a daughter, she was always her daughter
Let’s just add that those the reason the sentient bacteria hates mutants is because of a war between the bacteria and mutants and Atlantis 3 billion years ago and also stryfe was there for reasons!
Aaron’s Avengers run. He seemed bored with the core team to me and was constantly giving them power ups like the Phoenix or creating alternate reality versions of characters.
A group of heroes, I think villains as well, had to have 1 on 1 fights to determine who would be worthy. It was a mess and ended with echo claiming the prize.
Isn’t kinda canon that two mutants are capable of conceiving a human child like w sabertooth and mystique’s kid or wasp and havok’s daughter as well as other incidents that prove mutants and humans are the same?
Sure. But the anti-mutant bigots don't see it that way. Hells, humans built entire genocidal WMDs who immediately turned on them because their internal logic engines dictate that mutants are no different than humans.
See, this is what I tell people about Grant. They're capable of writing some amazing stuff but every now and then if the editor gets lax, an absolutely bonkers idea slips through.
Kang the Conqueror's speech about why he doesn't interact with Mutants much revealing that in the future the Mutants have murdered all the humans and evolved into infertile eldritch horrors. When you take into account the fact that Mutants are supposed to be a metaphor for real world marginalized communities it kinda sounds like the writer either genuinely believes in Great Replacement conspiracy bullshit, or got so caught up in their high concept science fiction lore that they forgot the intended narrative the IP thru were writing was and didn't think to check the implications.
To be fair, any Kang that shows up, in any comic, comes from a different future - none of which is the definitive 616 future because of how fucked up Kang's existence is. I can live in peace with that.
Colossus’s age when he joined the X-men. I’m going with 14-15. It makes sense for everyone at the time calling him a kid, his naïveté, repeat discussions about him getting stronger as he grows up, and especially his relationship with Kitty.
The Draco
Wanda and Pietro non-mutant retcons.
Franklin Richards non-mutant retcons.
Romulus.
And despite the clumsiness of the Xorn retcons they stay. Magneto as an Auschwitz survivor putting other people in gas chambers doesn't work for me in a narrative sense. Someone who joined the X-Men (both before and after) would have far more self awareness.
I'm shocked that no one has mentioned the Deadly Genesis retcon of Xavier using Moira's second team and one of them being the third Summers Brother. Literally none of it works -- it stains Xavier's character even further, it makes Moira look like a chump, and Vulcan is just a boring, awful character that not even Al Ewing could make interesting.
Vulcan IS kinda boring, you're right! Although Hickman made him funny in that Krakoa-era re-introduction but now I'm confused if it was actually him... gah forget it
Most of the Ultimate timeline is crazy bullshit, I only liked the ultimate Spider-Man. I honestly can't pick the craziest part: Logan possibly being the twins real dad or the twins having a incestuous relationship 🤮
Xavier wanting to bang Jean is pretty high up there for things I like to ignore.
Feral Wolverine.
Every resurrected Wolverine came with a shiny new adamantium skeleton that just gets left out whenever he dies.
Xavier creeping on Jean in the early books.
On the reverse, I like to remember how absolutely mustache-twirlingly villainous Emma was before they rehabilitated her character.
If marvel could stop ignoring the Eternals, and write a story that brings back Gideon, Nicodermous (why didn’t the five bring them back), and do it in a way where their immortality is relevant (in a comic world where no one truly dies), that’d be cool.
Hell - what is immortality worth when the Five can bring you back?!
Inhumans V X-Men. I never even read it but I've heard enough about it to know I never want to. (Emma using Sentinels? Wtf?)
Also Wanda/Pietro as everyone else says. Franklin not being a mutant too.. A lot of the pettiness that came from the pre Fox buy out era. So dumb, such lack of foresight and the biggest issue with synergy ever.
Other than those: Prof X being in love with Jean (nonononono, fuck you Onslaught for bringing that back), Blink with dreads being the same as AoA Blink (my own pettiness probably, just hated that look), the Draco (thank you X-Men Blue), Romulus (so dumb), Angel and Husk banging in the sky over Husks family (most of Austen tbf),
Oh and Bobby being gay
(Joking, happy pride month!)
Other things I want to ignore and block out:
X Men Green, it was a bad story and Nature Girl killing an innocent dude who just happens to work in a store, is insane. He might have been environmentally friendly however, he was killed simply for working at a place where a bag choked a sea turtle.
Krakoa Era, why on Earth where mutant babies left abandoned by their MUTANT parents. Weren't some citizens abandoned by their parents when it was found out that they were mutants? One or two mutant citizens were born mutants and they were abandoned. What's the difference between the two?
As others said said Wanda/Pietro, Franklin Richards but also everything to do with Avengers getting the Phoenix force oh and Alex’s Mutant speech although it’s probably slightly in character
The **entirety** of the very painful 6 year span that told the tale of Beast’s ingenious plan to kidnap the teenaged first class of X-Men from the past and use them to heal the wounds of a divided mutantkind through the power of nostalgia and friendship…I guess. There’s far too much to criticize here but I just really dislike much of All-New X-men. The immense implications of and issues with the time travel and the sheer idiocy of the endeavor are staggering. Also, teen Jean invading teen Bobby’s mind and just casually outing him, then the two of them immediately ambushing adult Bobby was just goofy. It wasn’t even narratively compelling either, it just felt sort of mean in my opinion. But that’s just the surface of the myriad of criticisms I have for All-New to eXtermination. I try to forget the baby X-Men we’re running around confusing things basically up until Krakoa.
I like this idea, I had fun with it, but Beast should have caught way more shit for it. It was so cruel, especially for Warren given what was going on with his adult-self at the time.
That already isn't 616 canon, it was Ultimate.
Which reminds me, any incursion of Ultimate characters (or Old Man Logan or other "too edgy for 616" continuites) into main continuity is non-canon for me.
The Tony Stark not being Howard and Maria’s biological child stuff. It’s stupid, needlessly complicates the lore, and doesn’t add anything to the character.
It's still better than Anna Marie (maiden name [STILL] unknown). After getting married she became Anna Marie LeBeau, but for a character who has been a part of almost all main X-Teams and Titles over decades, we should at least have been told her maiden surname when we got told her actual first name (which also took too long to get out).
Agreed. Especially when you consider that canonically his biological father is Thomas Logan; simply going by singular name “Logan” is far more fitting than taking the name of his unwitting step-father.
Ignoring that bullshit as well….. I ignore anything about Wanda and Pietro not being Erik’s kids.
Oh man, I am 100% with you.
They'll retcon that back as soon as the MCU is done with her.
They’ve already been walking it back since Marvel bought Fox, they have a paternal relationship Magneto again, and just like Franklin Richards not being a Mutant has just been retconned by his own power, I’m guessing we’ll get something similar relating to back Wanda more than likely.
> they have a paternal relationship Magneto again Ironically Magneto never had that paternal relationship with Wanda. Wanda's most warm moments with Magneto has come AFTER the retcon.
Wait, Franklin's a mutant again?
He's been a mutant this whole time apparently.
I personally think Wanda altered reality to make it so she is no longer Magneto’s child. That way she was Magneto’s child, isn’t currently, and it fits her personality.
# NO MORE MUTANTS
(A few years later) NO. MORE MUTANTS!
So you don’t work on a contingency basis?
No, money down!
The biggest MCU fumble was them not using her story for Xmen purposes instead they went with multiverse bs.
Oh sure Wanda takes the X gene from millions of people and she’s a monster Jean Grey meanwhile annihilated an entire solar system and she gets to be part of the ruling class of the ethnostate
What's anyone gonna do about it? Kill her for a 80th time?
I ignore it while simultaneously loving any X-Men calling her pretender.
Exodus hated her ass for the longest time and I was living for it.
Exodus is so sassy
I love that krakoa era took that generic vilan that was exodus before, and turned him into a glamourous sassy fanatic thing.
I've been saying it since AXE- I will never forgive Gillen for making me like *Exodus* of all characters. Insane writing skill showboating.
Worst decision ever
I think one more day is worse but I still think this is bad. Also Franklin going from being an omega level mutant to not just because the writer doesn’t want to deal with that.
Its not the WORST decision ever but like...thats only because of all the dumb things that Marvel has done over the years. Avengers 200 OMD Heroes Reborn The list could go on...
X vs Inhumans was the worst decision ever.
*One More Day has entered the chat.*
Oh god this shit.... They have only done that cause X-Men right was still with Fox, yeah super just go and change literally the origin story of two important characters. Good luck to do a better movie than X-Men 2 or DOFP
Maximoff twins not being mutants and not being Magneto's children
Seriously like why the hell did they decide to do that?
Wanda and Pietro were a weird case of the movie rights being held jointly by both Fox and Marvel due to their wacky comics history (mutants who debuted in X-Men but who very quickly became long-term Avengers characters governed by the Avengers office rather than the X-Office). The rights to the term "Mutant" were a part of the Fox license though, which is why Wanda and Pietro were able to be used in the MCU but weren't able to be mutants. At the time, Ike Perlmutter had a fixation on trying to devalue the X-Men properties in an effort to harm Fox's license, because he is, as the kids say, a bit of a dick. This led to the period where the Inhumans were pushed heavily, the X-Men were minimized, and Wanda and Pietro were changed to no longer be mutants so that they aligned with the MCU versions and not the Fox versions. Since Magneto was a part of the Fox licence he was also off the table. Of course, the Inhumans television show ended up being critically panned hot garbage, the comics push to popularize the Inhumans over Mutants didn't go nearly as well as was hoped, and eventually the Fox license was brought back to Marvel Studios, rendering the entire exercise pointless. But for a brief moment in time, one petty executive was really able to stick it to the competition I guess.
By God were the Inhumans unbearable in that show. Pro tip: if your superhero protagonist is going to be a King, make them at least as charismatic as T'Challa or Namor. If they're going to be mostly mute, make them very phyisically expressive (Dragon Prince did this right!). And Black ~~Adam~~Bolt sucking was the least of the problems in the show. In the comics, Kamala ~~Harris~~Khan had her origin story under that regime, which I remember confused me immensely. But in practice the Inhumans felt like a distant non-entity. And Medusa was just this generic authority figure, might as well have been Princess Celestia for all the fucks that were given.
Right? And if your main protagonist's superpower is controlling her hair, don't shave her head to save on the visual effects budget. It will end up seeming really, really stupid.
Kamala Harris?
Every time the Vice President speaks she does seem Inhuman.
I haven't seen her speak since 2021.
Black Adam is a DC property, Black Bolt is king of Attilan.
Kamala being an Inhuman was one of the greatest accidents to ever happen. She was force to not be part of the Xmen which kept her as her own entity entirely, while they didn't want to actually include her in and Inhumans stuff because they suck. If Kamala had started as a mutant (despite that she was obviously imagined as one) I doubt she would have shot into the spotlight like she did.
Good for her. Yeah, other mutants tend to get swallowed into the black hole of drama that is the Summers/Xavier/Logan/Lehnherr/Darkhölme Family Tree. Entertaining though this may be, new stars tend to get devoured and discarded by the maelstrom at a depressing rate. Hell, they even brought back the OG XMen through time travel rather than let the newbies shine. *'All-New* X-Men' my ass.
>Pro tip: if your superhero protagonist is going to be a King, make them at least as charismatic as T'Challa or Namor. If they're going to be mostly mute, make them very phyisically expressive (Dragon Prince did this right!). Black Bolt was pretty good in MoM.
I’m glad Anson Mount got a little piece of MCU royalty after the disaster of the Inhumans show, and that he then got a truly great franchise role over at Strange New Worlds.
Because the Marvel Studios wanted to use Wanda & Pietro for their movies/TV but Marvel Comics under strict orders from Ike Perlmutter (may the fucker burn in hell) to forbid any mutants from being used due to their competitors Fox having the rights to mutants and the X-Men. Hence this "Wanda & Pietro aren't mutants" bs to get around the embargo.
Cause Disney didn't have rights to X-Men at the time and they wanted Pietro and Wanda in Avengers movie. So comics had to change the backstory to match them not being mutants because it was trademarked to Marvel and Fox at the time.
When in doubt blame Ike Perlmutter. He messed with so many things in the comics all because they didn't have one set of movie rights or another and was being spiteful
Franklin Richard not being a mutant like come on
Yeah, after 50+ years and two major X-men stories - Days of Future Past and Onslaught - relying heavily on Franklin Richards being a mutant and suddenly he's not one. What a fucking joke.
> two major X-men stories - Days of Future Past and Onslaught Don't forget **Days of Future Present**.
It wasn't important that he was a mutant in DOFP. He wasn't even called one. He didn't even get a chance to use his powers.
They probably meant Days of Future Present
I always thought that it was because Reed and Xavier made a deal of some sort to keep Franklin out of karakoa's business
I always assumed that what Reed whispered to Xavier at the second Hellfire gala had something to do with Franklin. Honestly the whole Fantastic Four/X-Men miniseries made the X-Men out to be some weird child snatching cult by trying to emotionally manipulate Franklin into running away from his parents.
I always took it as Reed told Xavier that he know what he made him forget.
The implication was that or a threat but they did actually reveal how Reed did it during one of the post-mutant Ms. Marvel runs (something about how being an Inhuman masks the X-gene).
If it was a threat I could easily see Reed saying something along the lines of, “I figured it out before and I can do it again, don’t fuck with me.”
And at the end it just ends up "Actually Franklin you aren't a mutant. You aren't special enough for our island". All that effort taken to get him on the island and then nothing. Though now I wonder what it was like for non superhero parents who had children that were mutants.
I think Reed threatened Xavior in some way to get him to sever ties with Franklin We know that Reed made a bargain with Kitty to regain the memories of what Xavier took from him and it didn't take much for Reed to "regain" his memories about how to mask the X-gene when Rasputin IV went rooting around in his head. My theory is that Reed created some sort of anti-mutant tech and threatened to release it into the wild if Xavior didn't make some excuse to keep Franklin off Krakoa.
Yep, I think that's what happened. He's a mutant but under threat by Reed. they conspired to make him think otherwise.
This. This is why I don’t like the Krakoan era. Not because I have a problem with the island. Or really even the resurrections . It’s the X-men acting like horny cultists.
Yeah Cyclops straight up telling Reed and Sue that Franklin has "family" after what he went through with Nathan as a baby left a bad taste in my mouth?
I thought the point was going to be that Xavier, magneto and Moira were altering the mutants personalities to keep them more in line. The horn cultist thing was like a side effect. I thought thats why kurt was starting to question his faith after everything he's been through. Then they just never did anything with it.
I thought the horny cultist vibe was intentional. Gave the too good to be true feeling and that paradise/resurrection came at a cost.
After rereading HOX/POX, it seems like Hickman was writing it that way. It was a creepy cult-ish ethnostate, The panel with Xavier walking sassily around the resurrected naked mutants is so weird to me. It's all clicking. Krakoa would have been its own downfall. ORCHIS was still a Hickman creation, but really it would have been internal fighting and mutants questioning the morality of the island, as well as other mutants wanting to take over, what would have weakened it brutally. Sinister and Apocalypse as authorities? Come on!
THIS
Still a mutant to me and at least he still has his powers
That was my impression as well. Technically, he is a mutant.
I still maintain Franklin used his powers to disguise his x-gene.
That's esentially what he did, he is hiding his powers from himself and oncw a year he uses them to protect the world.
Is Franklin Santa?
No, He's God. "To Me My Herald, MY GALACTUS." When full power you has Galactus as his Herald, welp, what can you call him?
It's actually already been undone sorta. Franklin altered his own reality to take away his powers so he can live a normal life. Every birthday he gets his powers and memories back and can choose to keep them or take them away again. So he is technically a mutant still, just not currently by choice.
“I’m fucking done with this shit man.”-Franklin
He is again I think he is hiding his powers from himself currently
It also creates some uncomfortable interplay with the themes of the recent X-Men/Fantastic Four mini
All the Xorn retcons
I remember when Bendis said something like, “It’s not my mess, but I’ll clean it up.” Then proceeded to make it 10x as confusing in The New Avengers.
Seemed like his motto for the entire marvel universe.
I came here to say this!
I came here to say this too. Mags is my favorite character, and I hated that xorn ended up being magneto. Then I hated that xorn pretended or believed himself to be magneto. Yucky.
No no, Xorn as Magneto Is brilliant and it's not a retcon, it's clearly a twist Morrison had planned all along. I love how Morrison's magneto is a twisted and self centered asshole. The way the character evolved now, going from noble villain to antihero to just hero, that reading couldn't work anymore, but as a way to critique Magneto's writing as "noble villain" it was genius and fun.
Wanda and Pietro not being Magneto's kids
The maximof twins not being the biological children of Magneto or even mutants at all
I like to believe Romulus was a complete bullshiter. Like his fake claws everything about his story was fake
I enjoyed everything about Wolverine Origins but Romulus. I like mystery as a component of wolverines story but the reveal of a new master manipulator BEHIND IT ALL…sucked ass.
Like I actually like Romulus’s design and premise but in a very ironic and over the top way. The issue is we’re supposed to take him seriously. If there was a retcon with him essentially saying “yeah I made everything I did and told Logan up just to see what he’d do lmao” I don’t doubt that it would work.
Honestly, I look back at the whole Romulus thing and see so much missed potential. It could have been a really interesting addition to Wolverine’s lore and mythos, but they just blew past that for what they chose to go with instead.
The lupine stuff was retconned when Romulus’ sister Remus said he made it up to control people
Most of Austen’s run I try to pretend never happened, but Angel’s “mutants don’t get AIDS” thing really didn’t sit right with me. It just felt extremely tone deaf and unnecessary, which was the running theme of Austen’s run.
It’s doubly weird as the Legacy Virus was the in-universe metaphor for AIDS and they had JUST gotten rid of that with the death of Colossus.
I suppose getting both would be a bit much.
X-Men fans often disagree, but the awfulness of Austen’s run seems almost unanimously agreed upon.
I don't think all of Austen's run was bad but the Draco stuff was 100% awful.
I absolutely hate when writers shit over real-life suffering of so many people for the sake of stupid jokes. Did you know that it's also Marvel canon that Wakanda has the cure of cancer, but doesn't share with the rest of the world because other nations would find a way to weaponise it?
Coincidentally, Sauron also has the ability to cure cancer, but he just wants to turn people into dinosaurs
That I can get behind, a man Dinossaur should follow his heart dammit.
Ah yes. A tale as old as time.
It's also more annoying if you understand cancer and have lost loved ones to it. That's not how cancer works. It's a whole class of diseases with a tremendous variety of causes. There's certainly no one size fits all solution for it. Whenever anyone casually spouts off about the "cure for cancer" it really drives me insane. It's like saying we developed a deathproof vest.
I mean, I buy some mutants not being able to catch or transmit the HIV virus. I can buy that, that tracks. But all of them being immune to it? Nope, that's too much.
It would have made sense if Angel said he couldn’t, due to his healing powers or whatever Angel/Demon mutant nonsense Austen was trying to push, but no mutants? Stupid.
There are tons of mutants with healing factors who logically should have a much harder time getting sick. But also logically, there should be a few who have the right genetics to get sick. Fuck, what if a mutant who is also a bat person gets it? Like, they don't get sick themselves, but it incubated and mutates into something worse?
Wait what? That’s insanely fucked up (on Austen’s part). Don’t know how I’ve never heard about that.
It was right when Angel learned he had blood-based healing power, that needed a live transfusion to work. Someone made a comment asking if Angel was worried about getting AIDS, and then that garbage came tumbling out of his mouth.
That’s… wow
Inhumans vs. X-men. Waste of time. Almost nothing important/meaningful happened
They bent over backwards and forwards to make the Inhumans really something just so they could set it up for the MCU. Then the Inhumans tv show was a bust and we’ve now just got a good 5 years of random Inhuman-centric events.
They were really really trying to replace the X-Men with the Inhumans when Fox had the movie rights. It was so stupid.
Any story with conflicts that could have been avoided with a 5 minute talk is a poor story.
I love how they did everything they could to make the Inhumans the "victims" but I still was like "Nah, fuck 'em up X-Men."
That one panel from the 60s where Xavier thinks he's in love with Jean, and anything that references it. Laura being anything less than like 97% genetically Logan. It makes her so much less interesting to say she's more of a biological daughter than an imperfect clone.
Okay, so I am way, way, WAY overthinking this, but I have never liked or understood the whole "imperfect" clone thing and *especially* clones that are another gender. Like, at what point does an altered clone become a genetically engineered daughter? It's one of those sci-fi concepts that makes my brain hurt. I just think of her as Lil' Wolverine and move on...
Honestly, I think that genetically any gender-swapped clone pretty much has to be either potentially unhealthy or essentially a child. In this case the sample they had of Logan's DNA had a damaged Y chromosome, meaning they used the X, hence Laura being female. However, double up on a single X chromosome can lead to all sorts of possible complications or biological/cognitive problems, which seems like a bad idea for a super soldier assassin. The only way to (relatively) ensure a healthy "clone" would be to use Logan's X chromosome along with another healthy chromosome and hope that the desired characteristics are both expressed from Logan's DNA as well as contained on that chromosome in the first place. Going the other way - a female original to a male clone - I think would absolutely necessitate a Y chromosome from somewhere else. That's why I wasn't really shocked by Laura being effectively Logan's daughter. Really the most shocking thing is that with how often Logan gets into bar fights or gets cut open by supervillains that they could just go get a fresh DNA sample off a pool cue or broken beer bottle. Heck, maybe pay some of his enemies to just tear off a hunk and hightail it.
The original origin story **as I've always remembered it** was that Logan's Y chromosome was too damaged to replicate so they duplicated his X chromosome. That's one chromosome pair out of 23 that's not the same between Laura and Logan, but Laura's two X chromosomes are identical and therefore identical Logan's one X chromosome. Let's take this to mean 45/46 chromosomes are the same = nearly 98%. The critical thing for your question is that 100% of Laura's DNA is Logan's DNA (so in that sense she's a clone), but Laura doesn't have 100% of Logan's DNA (so in that sense, she's not a clone). This is where I'd put the limit. As long as 100% of the subject's DNA is from the target, it's fair to say the subject is a clone, and if it's not one to one, they're an imperfect clone of the target. If they're not one to one *and* it's simultaneously true that 100% of their DNA is from the target but they don't have 100% of the target's DNA, then they can be (in science fiction, at least) an opposite sex clone. >at what point does an altered clone become a genetically engineered daughter? Well, Jurassic Park supplemented the DNA of dinosaurs with frogs and they're widely considered to be cloned dinosaurs, so for consistency with the most famous cloning science fiction franchise I guess we should say "some considerable percentage of the subject's DNA is not the target's DNA". However, the way I just approached the question, the subject becomes a child of the target whenever less than 100% of their DNA is from the target. >especially clones that are another gender That one is much easier to explain: epigenetics, no further detail required.
The point where an altered clone becomes a genetically engineered daughter is somewhere in the 50% - 75% DNA range
Well no, you're not wrong. It's basically a semantic difference but what the two things imply is different. In the end, we're all just genetic material, it's just that most people are a 50/50 mix of their parents, and most people's parents created them the conventional way. What I don't like about it is it attempts to reframe Laura into the daughter of Logan and Sarah: two people who never knew each other and never consented to have a child together. What Laura IS is fucked up, and that's the point- she rises above it. Logan wasn't her dad and Sarah wasn't her mom. Logan was an unwilling and unknowing genetic material donor and Sarah was a surrogate who caught feelings and did the right thing AFTER doing the horrific thing of creating a person as a weapon. I think of Laura referring to Sarah as her mom is her way of coping with the truth, which is fine. Then throwing "oh actually some of Sarah's dna is in you so she was your real mommy after all" undercuts not her whole story but certainly aspects of it. Sorry, I do ramble. If I ever have to do a filibuster, a lot of government people are gonna hear a lot of facts and opinions about Laura Kinney.
Agreed on the Xavier and Jean thing. Like, it was one panel in one random issue of the book that is probably otherwise unconsequential, but then Mark fucking Waid had to come in, bring it back for a massive X-Men event and help completely derail the character forever after that point.
Oh man, I had forgotten about that. Why? Why would you make her Sarah and Logans biological daughter? What purpose did it serve
She looks too much like Sarah to be logans's clone
She was Logans clone for years. Also I don’t have a problem with "Laura is 93% Logan but Sarah patched up the missing DNA with her own" but making her Sarah and Logans biological daughter changes what she was. It also changes Sarahs relationship to her to some extent as Laura is no longer a clone she made to be a weapon but grew to care for as a daughter, she was always her daughter
She literally carried Laura in her womb for 9 months, if that isn't being her daughter than I don't know what that is
Humanity hated mutants because of sentient bacteria.
Let’s just add that those the reason the sentient bacteria hates mutants is because of a war between the bacteria and mutants and Atlantis 3 billion years ago and also stryfe was there for reasons!
Like midichlorians?
It was sublimely stupid.
Echo being Phoenix. That whole mess of a story arc
Care to elaborate? Never read any Echo comic
Aaron’s Avengers run. He seemed bored with the core team to me and was constantly giving them power ups like the Phoenix or creating alternate reality versions of characters.
Aaron's run was basically him fucking around and taking a dump in various spaces of the Marvel universe.
A group of heroes, I think villains as well, had to have 1 on 1 fights to determine who would be worthy. It was a mess and ended with echo claiming the prize.
Wolverine's "hot claws"
The writers ignored that too.
But they are so good for barbecues
I really hope whoever thought of that was made to dig his own grave
Humanity have a gene that kills them when the mutant population goes up is some fucked up fanfic as far as anyone is concerned.
Wait WHAT
Isn’t kinda canon that two mutants are capable of conceiving a human child like w sabertooth and mystique’s kid or wasp and havok’s daughter as well as other incidents that prove mutants and humans are the same?
Sure. But the anti-mutant bigots don't see it that way. Hells, humans built entire genocidal WMDs who immediately turned on them because their internal logic engines dictate that mutants are no different than humans.
In fact the main bad guy from the latest Ironman run is a human child of two mutants and is a member of orchis
That one's just another case of mutant envy, almost no different than Cameron Hodge.
See, this is what I tell people about Grant. They're capable of writing some amazing stuff but every now and then if the editor gets lax, an absolutely bonkers idea slips through.
Marvel doesn’t know how followup on storylines and just leaves cliffhangers: Examples being the ending to NextWave and West Coast Avengers
Chat is this real?
[Yes](https://marvel.fandom.com/wiki/Extinction_Gene).
Was that ever brought up during Krakoa?
Nope. Like I said, the Extinction Gene concept is so bad that even main canon more or less stopped acknowledging it.
Kang the Conqueror's speech about why he doesn't interact with Mutants much revealing that in the future the Mutants have murdered all the humans and evolved into infertile eldritch horrors. When you take into account the fact that Mutants are supposed to be a metaphor for real world marginalized communities it kinda sounds like the writer either genuinely believes in Great Replacement conspiracy bullshit, or got so caught up in their high concept science fiction lore that they forgot the intended narrative the IP thru were writing was and didn't think to check the implications.
That's real? I've seen that panel a few times and assumed it was an edit.
To be fair, any Kang that shows up, in any comic, comes from a different future - none of which is the definitive 616 future because of how fucked up Kang's existence is. I can live in peace with that.
Kang is a bad guy, and all he sees are the bad futures. Krakoa was also sus as fuck to be fair.
Any of the Logan/Jean shit. I think Logan/Ororo is *much* better, and it leaves Logan out of the messy Grey/Summers canon.
I grew up watching X-Men Evolution, where Logan is an adult and Jean is a teenager. I’m relieved they didn’t pull that there.
Colossus’s age when he joined the X-men. I’m going with 14-15. It makes sense for everyone at the time calling him a kid, his naïveté, repeat discussions about him getting stronger as he grows up, and especially his relationship with Kitty.
The Draco Wanda and Pietro non-mutant retcons. Franklin Richards non-mutant retcons. Romulus. And despite the clumsiness of the Xorn retcons they stay. Magneto as an Auschwitz survivor putting other people in gas chambers doesn't work for me in a narrative sense. Someone who joined the X-Men (both before and after) would have far more self awareness.
When Moira wore the banshee skin. I find it in very bad taste. And somnus, I hate that character.
I'm shocked that no one has mentioned the Deadly Genesis retcon of Xavier using Moira's second team and one of them being the third Summers Brother. Literally none of it works -- it stains Xavier's character even further, it makes Moira look like a chump, and Vulcan is just a boring, awful character that not even Al Ewing could make interesting.
Vulcan IS kinda boring, you're right! Although Hickman made him funny in that Krakoa-era re-introduction but now I'm confused if it was actually him... gah forget it
I found my hero. You my good Sir wrote so eloquently how I feel about that story & Vulcan as a character.
The whole NYX Laura being a prostitute
Magneto will always be Erik Lehnsherr / Magnus. I don’t acknowledge Max Eisenhardt.
I’m pretending like the X-Men weren’t in the Ultimate Universe. There was too much weird stuff that went on in that universe…
Wasn't Wolverine American? Like, C'mon let the Canadians have this one cool person so they're not stuck with fucking Puck.
Don’t talk shit about Puck, the sexiest man on earth! I hope if he ever comes to the MCU he’s played by Danny DeVito.
Most of the Ultimate timeline is crazy bullshit, I only liked the ultimate Spider-Man. I honestly can't pick the craziest part: Logan possibly being the twins real dad or the twins having a incestuous relationship 🤮
I like how 80% of the comments are about Wanda and Pietro
Wanda & Pietro not being Magneto’s mutant children Wolverine & Jean Grey’s relationship
Xavier wanting to bang Jean is pretty high up there for things I like to ignore. Feral Wolverine. Every resurrected Wolverine came with a shiny new adamantium skeleton that just gets left out whenever he dies.
I'm the Ultimate Universe where Pietro and Wanda are banging 🤢🤮
Xavier creeping on Jean in the early books. On the reverse, I like to remember how absolutely mustache-twirlingly villainous Emma was before they rehabilitated her character.
If marvel could stop ignoring the Eternals, and write a story that brings back Gideon, Nicodermous (why didn’t the five bring them back), and do it in a way where their immortality is relevant (in a comic world where no one truly dies), that’d be cool. Hell - what is immortality worth when the Five can bring you back?!
The Externals were alive and well in the final arc of Unlimited. Some of the best characterization they've ever had, and a great Selene story.
Yeah, it’s Romulus. His mutant gift is the ability to wipe his ass and disembowel himself at the same time.
The entire drako arc
Magneto being eh eh eheh eevil. Liked his whole Krakoa vibe, loved his dadneto era, his 3 seconds with the outback era team was a highlight
The part that doesn't make more room for MAGGOTT!!!
I’m aware it’s an alternate universe but Wanda and Pietro’s incestous (is that even a word?) relationship
Inhumans V X-Men. I never even read it but I've heard enough about it to know I never want to. (Emma using Sentinels? Wtf?) Also Wanda/Pietro as everyone else says. Franklin not being a mutant too.. A lot of the pettiness that came from the pre Fox buy out era. So dumb, such lack of foresight and the biggest issue with synergy ever. Other than those: Prof X being in love with Jean (nonononono, fuck you Onslaught for bringing that back), Blink with dreads being the same as AoA Blink (my own pettiness probably, just hated that look), the Draco (thank you X-Men Blue), Romulus (so dumb), Angel and Husk banging in the sky over Husks family (most of Austen tbf), Oh and Bobby being gay (Joking, happy pride month!)
Most of the stuff by Chuck austen except for juggernauts friendship with Sammy. Marauders volume 2.
I've just chosen to ignore Krakoa since I don't vibe with the horny cultist vibe also Pietro and Wanda not being Erik's kids, like what???
Other things I want to ignore and block out: X Men Green, it was a bad story and Nature Girl killing an innocent dude who just happens to work in a store, is insane. He might have been environmentally friendly however, he was killed simply for working at a place where a bag choked a sea turtle. Krakoa Era, why on Earth where mutant babies left abandoned by their MUTANT parents. Weren't some citizens abandoned by their parents when it was found out that they were mutants? One or two mutant citizens were born mutants and they were abandoned. What's the difference between the two?
Mutant origin in the OG Ultimate run, if it counts.
As others said said Wanda/Pietro, Franklin Richards but also everything to do with Avengers getting the Phoenix force oh and Alex’s Mutant speech although it’s probably slightly in character
The **entirety** of the very painful 6 year span that told the tale of Beast’s ingenious plan to kidnap the teenaged first class of X-Men from the past and use them to heal the wounds of a divided mutantkind through the power of nostalgia and friendship…I guess. There’s far too much to criticize here but I just really dislike much of All-New X-men. The immense implications of and issues with the time travel and the sheer idiocy of the endeavor are staggering. Also, teen Jean invading teen Bobby’s mind and just casually outing him, then the two of them immediately ambushing adult Bobby was just goofy. It wasn’t even narratively compelling either, it just felt sort of mean in my opinion. But that’s just the surface of the myriad of criticisms I have for All-New to eXtermination. I try to forget the baby X-Men we’re running around confusing things basically up until Krakoa.
I like this idea, I had fun with it, but Beast should have caught way more shit for it. It was so cruel, especially for Warren given what was going on with his adult-self at the time.
the whole Logan and Spidey switching bodies thing, especially the whole situation with MJ that was disgusting
That already isn't 616 canon, it was Ultimate. Which reminds me, any incursion of Ultimate characters (or Old Man Logan or other "too edgy for 616" continuites) into main continuity is non-canon for me.
thank god 😭
The Tony Stark not being Howard and Maria’s biological child stuff. It’s stupid, needlessly complicates the lore, and doesn’t add anything to the character.
I pretend Daken doesn’t have that dumb fucking forearm claw.
The forearm claw looks stupid, but we have seen it used to great effect as a sort of "surprise" weapon in certain fights.
I just try to forget about Daken.
Get off your alt Logan
I ignore everything BUT Romulus, Onslaught, Warhawk, and Azazel.
I thought that his sister Remus was like "nah, he is full of shit"
Anything to do with Onslaught after the original storyline.
Logan being named James Howlett
Nah, Howlett, because he's an animal, like Howl, get it, howl?
It's still better than Anna Marie (maiden name [STILL] unknown). After getting married she became Anna Marie LeBeau, but for a character who has been a part of almost all main X-Teams and Titles over decades, we should at least have been told her maiden surname when we got told her actual first name (which also took too long to get out).
Same. He’s Logan.
Agreed. Especially when you consider that canonically his biological father is Thomas Logan; simply going by singular name “Logan” is far more fitting than taking the name of his unwitting step-father.
Phoenix not being Jean.
The young o5
Chuck Austen.
Are Ink, Greymalkin and Cipher (with an I) still canon? if yes, they really shouldn't be. other than that, Rogue fucking Sentry.