The weirdest thing around this time was in another X-Book a writer had Iceman flirting with Firestar, then this issue happens and in the other book Bobby and Angelica don't talk to each other after that lol.
This is a great example of what happens when a writer comes up with an agenda and pushes it regardless of the character's history or current events.
Not against gay characters but this was a poor editorial decision, that's my opinion.
Gotta love Bendis:
“Bobby… you’re gay.”
“I’m what?”
“You’re gay”
“He’s gay?”
“He’s gay”
“What does that even mean?”
“It means you’re gay!”
“Oh god I gotta call Northstar…”
“He’s gay too!”
“What?”
“What!”
“What the what?!?!”
“Peter you need to calm down!”
“I’m BOBBY!!”
Worst dialogue writer of all time. He also thinks that continuity counts as a shortcut for his own ends. And I defend his overall macro stuff because I love that era of Marvel. But this is stupid.
I don’t think anyone is a worse dialogue writer than Gerry “I’m syncing with” Duggan. The only reason I made it through his X-men run was for Polaris content
The best thing to come out of bendis's writing style was the joke about the rocket and Racoon book being written by him because Gwenpool saw kitty Pryde in a place Kitty would never normally be.
See, comments like this make me feel like there’s a pretty clear divide between the Gen Z set and millennials/Gen Xers, when it comes to Bendis.
Like, it’s not an exaggeration to call his pre-Avengers stuff *revolutionary* - for better or worse, his Daredevil, Alias, and USM have had as massive an influence on comics storytelling as anything since Miller and Moore…and I’d hold that we’ve yet to reach the next paradigm shift.
He also lost his fastball 10-15 years ago!
And that didn’t stop Marvel and DC from putting him on massive books with which his remaining strengths are very much misaligned!
It's so jarring to see people say that his dialogue style isn't how anyone actually talks. It's how GenX urban Jews talked. You know, like Seinfeld, the most successful tv comedy? And also Bendis himself.
Readers at the time absolutely got the voice. The criticism was that the voice didn't work when he applied it too broad (like Doom during Mighty), but when it was the New Yorkers, people absolutely got it, and thought it fit!
But you highlighted the problem with your own comment. You called it “The Voice”. There is almost never any differentiation between characters. Spider-man could sound like Carol Danvers who could sound like Wong who could sound like Parker Robbins. It’s all just “The Voice”.
Just because it worked for a while doesn’t mean it was a good choice.
Eh, it was versatile enough and he's a good enough writer that it pretty much worked on every character between 20 and 40 that was based in New York. Which did cover Carol.
It's conversational and distinctive but didn't detract unless the character just wasn't conversational at all (Like Wong in your example).
There's a reason he was comics' biggest writer for almost 20 years. It wasn't a fluke.
Honestly I just disagree and I have a feeling both of us can go back and forth for a while which I have no interest in doing. I definitely agree he was the biggest writer in Marvel due to his architecture and macro storytelling which I actually love. From Disassembled even all the way to Siege it felt like actions had consequences in 616 in a way I hadn’t seen before. Granted that changed as it always does but for a while the universe felt lived in.
But I swear you could pluck a dialogue tree out of any Bendis written event and drop it into another and 8 times out of 10 you wouldn’t notice the switch.
But I hear your point and you’re right, he was huge and made good comics. I just think his strengths were run into the ground when they shouldn’t have been. And his strengths haven’t been strong recently.
Yeah…neither u/TheBrobe nor I are talking about his late-2000s Avengers stuff, haha.
Matt, Foggy, Ben, Fisk, Jessica, Luke, Danny, Pete, MJ, Christian, Deena, etc all have clearly distinct voices, even as they fall under the broad archetype of sharp, tough-talking New Yorkers.
The problem is that he writes *everyone* like a sharp, tough-talking New Yorker, even when it doesn’t fit the character.
I know. I’ve also read his Daredevil and Alias stuff and some of his Image stuff like Powers and Jinx. I get what you’re saying, but the contemporary voice he uses today is so bad it actually makes me think less of his writing where it does work. It seems like he got lucky back in the day. Broken clocks and all that.
I really don’t think it’s about “luck” so much as it’s about *limitations*.
Bendis is, fundamentally, a crime writer.
Those are the stories he’s naturally good at telling.
His “Big Avengers Idea” from Disassembled through Siege was *so damn good* that his inability to write dialogue besides “sharp sarcastic New Yorker” *didn’t matter*.
After, they continued to put him on non-crime books and he kept taking the jobs…and now he’s a meme.
That's the problem he was dope when it was Spider-man. But the quirkiness fit with his personality. It's like he's stuck in this groove and can't adapt.
Yep I totally agree. He had great runs on Ultimate Spidey and Daredevil/Alias etc… but reading those runs again after reading stuff he made 15 years later actually makes me think less of the initial run. The recycling of character interaction is crazy.
It was even more unbearable when Teen-Jean dragged Teen-Bobby and Adult-Bobby into the same room and then they had a three-way discussion in the same exact voice.
He has no concept of individual character tones - he even fucked up writing dialogue for Doctor Doom of all people (seriously, Doom has possibly the most distinctive “voice” of any comic character. If you can’t get him right you might as well give up).
Jean wasn’t as bad as people say but this was a pretty dick way to handle it. Yes it was good talking to him alone but being promoted to throw it in his face cause he called magik hot felt like reactionary response. They could have made a nice filler issue where they chill out and Bobby meets a guy or other teen hero and before they leave he gets that one stray thought that Jean picks up on. Make it fully clear she can’t control what she hears and give him a psychic message her lips are sealed so he can address and handle it how he wants too. Making her tell him what he should do after invading his privacy (albeit on accident) wasn’t right of her.
She handled it clumsily but she is a teenage girl. And as far as I remember this wasn't a one time reaction to him calling Magik hot. Bobby had been kind of creepy with women a few times at this point. The only thing she told him is that she thinks he's gay and he should talk to adult Bobby about it.
To be honest as a queer person that came out in my late 20s I would have appreciated a friend that actually talked to me about this when I was younger, instead of many of them saying that they always knew/suspected 🥲.
I think this is complicated (as anything this personal will always be). We all have fictions we build about ourselves, and sometimes those fictions are as important to our mental well-being as breaking them down might be in other cases. You run a pretty massive risk by just deciding to confront someone about their most deeply held personal beliefs. Sometimes it might be just what someone needed to find the courage to be themselves, other times it might be... not that.
While I appreciate what I think is your intent, I really don't agree on one part. Saying that a fiction like this can be helpful to our mental health really minimizes the very real and personal struggles that come with staying in the closet. Lying to yourself about who you are is never going to be truly healthy in the long-term. Self-reflection and self-acceptance are incredibly important.
Yes everybody is different and in an ideal world nobody would lie to themselves about who they are but people sometimes do need an external trigger. Should that trigger come in the form of a telepathic mutant girl? Maybe not. In the case of Bobby? Maybe yes. As you said it's complicated.
You're basically completely missing my point. My point is YOU, a bystander, don't know who needs that external trigger or not. They might, you're right. They ABSOLUTELY might, but assuming that you are the arbiter of that need is incredibly arrogant and if you're wrong when you're discussing stuff that is this complex, personal, and potentially tied to their self-identity and self-worth, the consequences could be massive.
That was my point. Getting involved in stuff like this for another person is a risk. It might pay off. It might also end with them doing something terrible and you regretting your choice for life. It's not just 'honesty is always the best policy.'
And to be clear I'm not just talking about coming out. There are LOTS of things that humans lie to ourselves about or, to perhaps use less loaded language, keep hidden from others for a variety of reasons. Some good, some bad.
I knew a guy from China years ago who, as I knew him, was openly gay. However he had never told his mother because, as a Chinese person, he had no siblings. He had no cousins. Add to that, shortly after I met him his father committed suicide. This means that he was literally all his mother had. There was no one else. He chose to stay closeted for her becuase he felt that the dream of being a grandmother was a big part of what was keeping her together. For all I know (lost contact after we graduated) he eventually got married and had a kid simply to keep his mom happy.
Now, there are a multitude of ways you could choose to criticize his choice, but when you're talking about people's lives like this and things that are so fraught, it's dangerous for an outsider to assume they have anywhere near enough information to make that decision. I'm not saying it's wrong exactly, and sometimes people are going to take that risk and it may turn out well, but it IS a risk.
> You're basically completely missing my point. My point is YOU, a bystander, don't know who needs that external trigger or not. They might, you're right. They ABSOLUTELY might, but assuming that you are the arbiter of that need is incredibly arrogant and if you're wrong when you're discussing stuff that is this complex, personal, and potentially tied to their self-identity and self-worth, the consequences could be massive.
I'll be honest, I find this a strange accusation considering I agreed with you about this. I understand your point completely and am confused about this weirdly antagonistic response. I did not suggest that anybody should be the arbiter of other peoples needs and certainly don't think I hold that knowledge. What I was trying to convey is that, based on my personal experience, having someone bring that up for me could have been helpful.
> And to be clear I'm not just talking about coming out. There are LOTS of things that humans lie to ourselves about or, to perhaps use less loaded language, keep hidden from others for a variety of reasons. Some good, some bad.
This is the thing I disagreed with you on. And I still disagree even if it's not specific to coming out. Maybe you can list a specific example where lying to yourself might be good.
Even still, we're talking about a specific comic scene about coming out so I don't see what the relevance is.
> I knew a guy from China years ago who, as I knew him, was openly gay. However he had never told his mother because, as a Chinese person, he had no siblings. He had no cousins. Add to that, shortly after I met him his father committed suicide. This means that he was literally all his mother had. There was no one else. He chose to stay closeted for her because he felt that the dream of being a grandmother was a big part of what was keeping her together. For all I know (lost contact after we graduated) he eventually got married and had a kid simply to keep his mom happy.
This is why I think that you missed my point. This example you provided about your friend from China is poignant, but it addresses a different issue: the choice to hide one's identity from others, in this case, his mother, due to cultural and familial pressures. This is distinct from the internal struggle of self-acceptance and the harm that can come from self-deception which is what I was addressing.
That’s fair i still think it was an improper response. She could have shut down the comments and behavior and dealt with him being gay separately. Throwing a curveball to him like that in the situation didn’t sit well with Bobby who even went on to call her on it as their adult selves.
someone saying I knew/suspected always felt weirdly passive aggressive too me 😂. Imagine you tell someone you can’t fit a suit and they say it’s obvious. Much rather have someone talk directly (not in a Jean fashion) then let it out like that.
As someone who had friends and family theorise that I was gay both behind my back and in the open, the ideal situation is actually for people to mind their own business and create a welcoming environment for you to come out to.
Well to be fair, she saw that if they minded their business, 15 years in the future he'd still be in the closet, repressed/depressed, self depreciating with multiple failed relationships, and i guess she didn't want him to end up that way
Which is interesting, given they return to the past and have their memories locked away until the exact moment they left in the present, so Bobby still went through that closeted period.
Imo that was the most fucked thing about having to go back. Bobby managed to come out and accept himself and even experience some young love, but then he has to go back into the closet for the greater good. The end result is that Bobby got to retroactively be out as a teenager, but that doesn’t undo the misery
As a gay man (out for about 35 years now) I get your point and I agree that LGBTQIA+ representation like this in comics is great for young people and even for straight allies. This Reddit conversation on this thread is fantastic!
Geneshift, I respect your take but have a different one: Jean stole something from Bobby. She stole his right and opportunity to face this truth his own, stand and look at it, get okay with it, and then choose to tell others accordingly. There is something immensely powerful about that "facing yourself" moment(s) and forcing the vulnerability and courage from deep within to say, "I'm gay." That's a priceless, unrepeatable moment of turning that journey of crisis/faith/aloneness, whatever it is for that person, into strength. That moment in a young queer person's life can only happen once. She took it from him.
You know how you're not supposed to help a butterfly out of a chrysalis or they won't be strong enough? Yah. Sameish.
GeneShift, I appreciate your point that friends who can point that out might have made your journey easier. That works for you. Cool. I still think well-meaning friends who bring it up first ruin the proud and powerful moment to say, "This is who I am and I'm letting you see me."
Thanks for sharing that. I respect the importance of "facing yourself" and understand how powerful it can be to come out on your own terms. My argument is mostly that I would have preferred to have had 10+ years of truly knowing and living as who I am rather than spending that time constantly lying to myself and fighting it in or order to have that powerful moment of self-realization on my own. And the truth is some people never (or far later in life) discover that about themselves. And that's true for Bobby as well given we know Adult Bobby is still around lying to himself, which Jean also knows.
I understand that it might feel like theft and can appreciate that, but I think that's kind of the wrong framing. Looking past the LGBTQIA+ aspect, there's a lot of things about myself that I have found out because of the help and work of other people (therapists/friends/family). I would never consider my conversations with those friends or family to have stolen something from me.
Jean offered Bobby a mirror to see himself more clearly. As someone who came out later in life, I know firsthand how confusing and isolating those feelings can be. With Bobby the way he handled that confusion is by creeping on women. Having someone point out something you might be struggling to acknowledge can be a form of support and validation, not necessarily a theft of your moment.
Bobby still has the power to define his journey and his narrative. Jean's intervention might just be the catalyst he needs to start that journey, but it doesn't diminish the bravery and significance of his eventual coming out. He still has to confront his truth, accept it, and decide when and how to share it with others. Jean doesn't force that on him, that process is still very much his own.
Sorry for the mini-rant and thanks for reading it. It's something that I have a lot of thoughts about and not all of them are consistent lol. At the end of the day I think I come down on the side of everyone's experience with coming out being unique, and there's no one "right" or "ideal" way for it to happen. Well I guess that's not true, the ideal way would be growing up in a supportive household and community where there's no internal struggle and coming out as gay or trans or whatever is no different than anything else.
I was enjoying your reply until you informed me I had “the wrong kind of framing” for a way of thinking that was different than yours. A different opinion isn’t wrong because it’s not yours. It’s different. I was careful to emphasize that in my reply to you. Wish you had done the same instead of shaming me as wrong. Dang.
I apologize about that. I probably should have phrased it differently then. I wasn't trying to say your opinion is wrong. By saying "I think" I was more trying to highlight that it's a point where I disagree with you. I wish that the rest of that paragraph would have made it clear that it's my opinion, but I guess I failed in communicating it properly.
They did it this way with lots of exposition so it couldn't be reversed later. They wanted to lock in the "Iceman is gay" retcon so no one could come along in 10 or 15 years and retcon their retcon.
HE'S GAY AND THERE'S NOTHING YOU CAN DO ABOUT IT! Ridiculous, the whole thing just felt really forced.
I feel like the X-books have come a long way in handling LGBTQ characters in series like Amazing X-Men, NYC Generation X, Krakoa X-Factor and Krakoa New Mutants. New Mutants Lethal Legion is also a really good mix of action and comedy featuring some newer trans characters. I'm hoping they continue this more organic treatment of LGBTQ mutants in NYX and Exceptional X-Men, fingers crossed.
It was forced and marvel retcons everything now and this won't stop someone who wanted to un-retcon it.
The only thing that ever made sense about iceman being gay was that he had 40+ years of comics with few and short lived relationships (Opal and like 1 or 2 others).
Edit: To the person who replied to me it was hinted at in the 90s and blocked me, you are a true coward.
I replied to another person claiming it was "hinted at", when I pulled copies of the issues they referred to there was nothing of the sort.
You are the person who didn't care about the truth.
It wasn't forced it was hinted at since the early 90's. I know straight people like you don't care about the truth but queer people come out late in life all the time, gay men before they come out often have brief relationships with women that end badly like Bobby did. Many gay men read him as gay for a long time because of that, and then writers started hinting at it for a while before they were allowed to make it canon. Just because you missed the foreshadowing doesn't mean it wasn't there.
Sexuality is VERY hard to retcon back, which is one of the reasons they really shouldn't just do it to everyone. The optics would be awful if they ever tried to undo it. Look how pissed people are about the non-throuple.
Character has barely been used since. Such a shame. They turned a character with 50 years of continuity into a stunt.
To be clear I’m fine with gay characters. I’m not fine with retcons that damage a half century of storytelling.
You can dislike retcons and not have a problem with queer people.
I got a whole list of retcons I don't like, and this isn't really one that gets my attention. The whole Deadly Genesis thing was a stupid retcon along with many others.
My unpopular opinion. How he came out. I would have loved a story of older Bobby discovering it and learning to love himself and who he really is. Then seeing his younger self and having a honest heart to heart talk to his younger self about this realization, past choices, … etc a whole life of Bobby and his realization and accepting of who he truly is and how he got to this point. I think the younger Bobby coming out just kinda weakened it and felt forcedish like what does that mean for all the other relationships.
As someone who stopped reading xmen in 98ish and started again in 2018ish with iceman as my fav character of all time, this was abrupt.
Especially because jim lee bobby was a grizzled 40 yrs old in the early 90s but somehow he came out when he was a teenager?
Ive come around though, but would prefer a top bobby not bottom
X-Men 2 (2003) had a scene of Iceman coming out to his parents as a mutant that was played out similar to how some children come out to their parents, including the "Have you tried not being a mutant?" reply from his mother.
That was 3 years prior to the Family Guy scene and other comics that allude to Bobby as being gay, such as the panel with Deadpool in Marvel Girl's costume. If I had to guess, that scene planted a seed in people's minds that linked 'Iceman' with 'potentially gay' that sprouted into bloom when people were coming up with comedic scenes. The rest just snowballed (pun intended).
The one where he wants Jean to help unlock his powers after Emma Frost took control of his body and showed him all the things he could do but was too afraid of trying?
That was kind of Lobdell's thing with Iceman: showing him how powerful he was if he'd stop being scared of his powers. Mikhail Rasputin did pretty much the same thing with Bobby a few years before. Age of Apocalypse also showed a world where he 'let go.'
That's also why Lobdell basically ended his run with Iceman vs Bastion. Part of his goal on that run was to make him a more popular character. It's debatable whether or not he pulled it off.
Bro. It was an X-MEN movie. By a gay director who leaned into the gay allegories, which were ALREADY a parallel in the comics for decades previous. Nobody watched that scene and thought “this must mean Iceman specifically is gay!”
Yeah, that'd be a jump. I don't love sexuality switches for this reason. I think Bobby's is one of the better handled ones simply because the whole joke that gave birth to it is true, he'd never really had much in the way of romance that was lost by doing this anyway, so while it is abrupt, it's also not in that meaningful of a way, compared to something like Tim Drake.
> I think Bobby's is one of the better handled ones
Eh... compare it to something like Dr Charlene McGowan in Immortal Hulk where she is a scientist and important plot character first, and her being transgender only comes up later and is treated as not as important as her other attributes.
If kept Iceman's personality and treated him being gay as a secondary characteristic instead of his now primary characteristic, I'd argue that it was handled well. Heck, even Northstar is primarily treated as an arrogant jerk superhero first and gay man second, though that's becoming less so over the years.
Was it really that abrupt, though? Lobdell was doing some *heavy* subtextual hinting all throughout the early-to-mid-'90s (Emma knowing Bobby's "secret" after they switched bodies, that issue when he and Rogue go on a road trip to see Bobby's parents and his dad's reaction makes it clear he thinks Rogue is another beard, etc.)
The "secret" was how much of a slacker he was with his powers. His dad had a problem with Rogue being a mutant.
The only thing that ever really made sense is the character went 40+ years worth of comics and had few relationships (Opal and like 2 others) which were all short lived.
What are you on about?
Is it this scene when Bobby has a gaping hole in his chest and he can't change back? Is that the "secret?"
[https://www.reddit.com/r/xmen/comments/yjqe0c/iceman\_emma\_frost/](https://www.reddit.com/r/xmen/comments/yjqe0c/iceman_emma_frost/)
Is it this scene where Bobby's dad has a problem with him dating non-white girlfriends?
[https://shelfdust.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/12/unc3193-e1620941995305.png](https://shelfdust.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/12/unc3193-e1620941995305.png)
I can't fathom how anyone looks at either of those scenes thinks that hints at being a homosexual. I don't know if Lobdell was pandering later on or what. Him not having any long term serious relationships is a way bigger hint than either of those things.
Are there some other scenes you are referring to?
No, she was making fun of him for being a loser because he didn't know how to use his powers as well as she did when she switched bodies with him.
Edit: Oh, you must be referring to the interior decorating joke. That's kind of a stretch, "not cut out to be an X-Man" . Not every joke like that implies someone is a homosexual. Especially in the context of his "secret" this conversation refers to where she doesn't even use that word.
The discussion is a bit pointless because that interpretation has already been made canon, but I would not give credit to the authors.
You either wrote a gay character or you didn't. You don't get to collect social credit afterward when back when it happened, your character was straight. It's just like JK Rowling with Dumbledore.
They did write him has gay as much as they were allowed they deserve credit for trying just as much as editorial deserves to be called out for being to bigoted to let it happen.
I think anybody, any real person could have telepathy and they would have handled this better than how this scene was written. Also, please don’t invade someone’s privacy and then out them on the spot.
They were alone. She’s like fifteen years old. People aren’t perfect, especially not in dramatic fiction.
Teen Jean’s not committing a war crime here. This is just some stupid meme opinion that’s been floating around since the rise of Web 2.0 intersected with late-Bendis fatigue.
I get this is kind of a joke. But as Hickman said, canon is what people remember. I’ve been rereading this era. It’s maddening how everybody on the Internet only wants to remember these panels out of context, like Rogue’s ass from the screenshot of TAS.
Remember, this isn’t even the true coming out scene. It’s the first half, and the first time it’s introduced officially to readers, but the other one is the part where Bobby chooses to talk to his older self. (Who writers had been trying to make gay for a while.) *That’s* the part where we see his two voices from both sides of the alternate experience. Ice tears when you realize another version of you could have made a different choice to live more freely in a different era. Call me sentimental, but it was actually touching.
As to the Jean of it all:
Reminder that Beast begins the era by outing Jean to her telepathic power (which she didn’t know about/remember yet), then outing her to her *multiple* future deaths, then outing all of them by experience to their future lives, which are filled with a lot of torture, misery, and disappointment. The entire experience is an outing and a violation of knowledge they shouldn’t have. Bobby’s sexuality is the least of it. Even the sweet things, like Scott finding his own marriage invitation in a safety deposit box then becomes kind of a problem because knowing this ahead of time makes it feel like destiny instead of a choice, so understandably, they rebel.
And then in this setting, teen Jean, yes, behaves like a brat with boundary issues—who wouldn’t? all people have to learn social boundaries, psychics would be no different—in this setting Jean looks around and goes, “Okay, I’m dead and destined to be entangled with a cosmic force, Scott killed our teacher, Angel gets mutilated and becomes evil and then gets mind wiped, Beast apparently doesn’t care about being scientifically unethical, and Bobby’s big problems is… that he’s closeted and miserable? Oh come on, Bobby you have the fixable problem here! You’re gay!”
Nobody said the story was about Jean doing the right thing all the time. (When has a good Jean story *ever* been about Jean doing the right thing all the time?) However, it absolutely makes sense as a character beat.
Plus, what is “the right thing” anyway? That question is part of the time travel plot. Teen Scott can’t imagine working with Magneto, but do we find adult Scott wrong? Adult Jean never talked to Bobby about these feelings directly. Was he any happier for it? Would you weigh one blunt conversation with a close friend against a lifetime of greater acceptance?
The most controversial gay moment in modern Marvel history.
Well, actually, the Mystique wedding stuff should probably be more controversial for reasons outlined by Anole but...
I don't care on the details of Mystique's relationship, Azazel, who looks just like freaking Nightcrawler even with similar powers is his dad. Bobby being a closet homosexual makes way more sense than that.
This…. Was something that could have been an amazing addition to Bobby Drake as a character but…. Bendis gotta Bendis so… ham fisted and half assed it is.
The panels aren't well done but the idea of Jean helping Bobby come to terms with his sexuality isn't a bad one. Considering the history of bigotry in his family and his subconscious repression of his mutant ability after M Day, there is a lot that can be explored with this. I don't think Jean is wrong here.
What she did to Warren was way worse than this.
In the old days, most gay guys were with girls their entire life. You do know Bobby is from that era right? This whole he can’t be gay cause he had a girlfriend is one of the dumbest things I’ve heard.
It just goes both ways, really. I think it's fine when people don't think Bobby was written as gay, he wasn't always intended to be. It feels disingenuous to ignore / repurpose all past stories and characterization because of a new direction someone took a character in, or dismiss people's opinions because of it.
But at the same time, yeah, it's not like "guy dated women in the past = he can't be gay", because that's very much a normal thing, and lots of people can relate to it. Not everyone comes to terms with their sexuality in the same way, and there's been people who DID write Bobby with him being gay in mind, even before this happened.
It's just as disingenuous to act like writers like Scott Lobdell, Chuck Austen and Marjorie Liu weren't dropping hints or trying to have Bobby come out for *years* only to have editorial block them. Bendis was just the first one with enough clout to push it through.
Lobdell said he wrote Bobby's relationship with his parents like an out gay man's. Austen said that after his run and Bendis's , but in addition to Northstar, he had Bobby affected by a female mutant whose powers only worked on people attracted to her. It seemed like he was trying to prove Bobby wasn't gay, which he'd hardly admit after his outing.
I mean, that's why I specifically mentioned that people did write him with that intention too, before the reveal. People should be able to accept both sides of it - Bobby has been around for a long time with different writers.
There's people who don't in bad faith, but that's a different issue.
Of course he wasn’t initially written as gay. Back then it was only straight and white. Should we not have any minority characters either? The O5 were all white after all. Times change. Those still complaining about Iceman being gay? Deal with it suckers! I’m not talking to you btw, just the “only obscure characters should be gay” crowd.
Nope! That can be worse than being an “obscure” character. Representation needs to be seen amongst MAIN characters. The MAIN characters from decades ago are still the main characters NOW with very rare exceptions (Magik, Laura, Ms Marvel). There were no original minority MAIN XMEN characters because of hateful/ignorant beliefs like racism and homophobia.
The problem there is that by necessity almost every character in marvel has a history of failed relationships, and it doesn't reflect on their sexuality.
People are afraid to admit that Bobby was not meant to always be gay and it was a retcon of his character, which is weird because it doesn't diminish anything about him being gay now (although frankly nothing else about him changing when it's supposed to be a deeply rooted problem he's been dealing with is.. a choice).
> People are afraid to admit that Bobby was not meant to always be gay and it was a retcon of his character
Nobody is actually afraid to admit this. Nobody thinks Stan Lee meant for Bobby to be gay. Just like nobody thinks that he meant for Xavier to be a morally compromised character, or for Magneto to be a holocaust survivor, or for Beast to be a hairy blue war criminal and on and on.
None of that means we can't try to make sense of original characterization in light of new information/retcons. That's how long running comics work.
This has nothing to do with being gay because Bobby "Iceman" Drake is not real. He is a fictional character whose life is dictated by writers and editors. If he was real, you'd be right. But this is nothing more than a retcon.
They could do the same thing to Cyclops or Wolverine if they weren't too afraid of potential backlash or mucking up the continuity.
So there is no real experience to draw on? There are no situations in which a man exclusively dated women to appear to be straight until they came to terms with being gay? That doesn’t happen at all? There is no parallel?
You genuinely have no idea what you are talking about.
Again, not a real person. Bobby was never intended to be gay from the jump. It was merely fortunate circumstance that the characters history worked out in a way where the change worked.
🤣 Okay, not being a real person doesn’t mean the character doesn’t draw on parallels to real life. Iceman was chosen because his story most lined up with a lived experience of gay men. I’m sorry Bobby being gay bothers you 🤷🏻♂️
Just because on one as every felt safe enough around you to come out later in life doesn't mean it doesn't happen. A lot of gay men have a history of chasing after and dating women, it doesn't make them any less guy. They deserve to see themselves in stories as well.
I think Jean did it because she saw that future Bobby was still deeply in the closet and had a history of failed relationships. Seeing this she figured it was best if she ripped the bandaid and tell him to his face. It has to be frustrating seeing a good friend stay in the closet for decades when you know for certain they are gay.
Yes, there's a lot of scenes that can be interpreted as subtext thought the 60's through the 80's, but starting in the 90's several writers have intentionally written him as gay, and him "refusing to accept a part of himself" having a limiting effect on his power.
In the late 70s. There is a flash back when jean joins the group. Charles welcome here in the entrance of the mansion and the rest of the team watch her from a window. Angel, Beast and Cyclops say things about she being hot. (It's a flashback about the frst time Scott saw her). Bobby Say something like "it's just a girl" and leaves. Only thing i can remember, but Also bobby was the youngest so You can read that like he was not into women yet or he was not as a horny as the rest of his Friends
The weird part is that at the time Present Day Bobby and Kitty Pryde were dating (or starting to date at least) over in Wolverine and the X-Men when Young Bobby came out.
Then suddenly Bendis immediately had Kitty Pryde start Dating Star Lord (When we was writing GotG and Star Lord's solo book).
which is suspicious when the same thing happened in Ultimate Spider-Man. Since she started dating Peter Parker the first chance Bendis got to pair the two. Coupled with the fact that Colossus was Gay in that universe, it really seems suspicious that Bendis immediately shuts down Bobby being Bi (Which would have made so much more sense, let's be honest) to the point it becomes "Did Bendis reveal Bobby Drake was Gay (But makes a point to shut down him being Bi) just so he could write Kitty Pryde dating a Peter he was writing?" for a while.
Because by this point, Bobby Drake being Gay is established and has a dedicated fan base. But back then it raised so many issues
I will die on the hill that if ur going to change Bobby’s sexuality being gay makes way more sense then bi. Him specifically not being happy with his female partners is a huge part of his character and holding himself back completely explains why he doesn’t ever use the full extent of his powers, if he’s bi he’s still being himself to some extent. I also just think that from my experience bi men don’t relate to that coming out experience but that’s not for me as a gay man to say.
The most annoying thing about this was that there were writers who wanted to have Bobby be gay/bi for years, but Marvel always said no, but then it becomes profitable to have an major gay character and they force Bendis to put it into his first issue despite it already being overly full leading to this infamous scene. If they had given this to a writer interested in telling this story, it could be great, but instead it just feels forced.
How did you get *so much wrong*?
They didn't force Bendis to do it. Bendis convinced them to finally make it happen.
It wasn't Bendis' first issue, it was All New X-Men *#40*. Over three years after he started. There were plenty of hints and the dynamic between him and Jean which flowed into this was established.
You can not like the scene, that's a perfectly valid and popular opinion. But you're just making shit up to justify your points.
I just read Bendis’ All-New X-Men story for the first time a few weeks ago. This scene was NOT in the first issue. I’m not sure where you’re getting that but that’s objectively wrong. It’s issue #40 which is a far cry from issue #1 like you said. You might have misremembered, maybe. I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt for that. You don’t have to like the revelation itself but your reasoning is incorrect
This. Iceman has been my favorite X-men/ superhero since I was 7. I remember specifically a day at KB Toys my mom said I could get one toy and I picked the Iceman with the slide that you could actually freeze water in. I have no issues with him being Gay, I am Bi myself, but how it was done I find so… hollow.
It *does* feel forced, but that's because whenever Bendis does *anything* it always feels forced, his one plot is "things happen just because". But he's always been very clear that it was his initiative, and that it had nothing to do with being profitable (ANX #40 wasn't some big anniversary issue, and wasn't marketed as The Big Bobby's Gay Issue).
This is one of those comic moments that facilitated a lot of toxic discourse. Probably doesn't help that some people really hate Jean, some really hate that Bobby is gay, and some really hate Bendis. Also a lot of time has passed and this specific panel has been memed to oblivion, so a lot of context before and after this is lost.
And somehow reddit is worse about this one than twitter.
I'll cop to being a Bendis hater, especially considering how Bobby's coming out *could* have been handled if it'd been written by Liu or Gillen or Aaron or literally anyone else in the talent pool.
The best/worst part of this is that Bobby acts like a character who is being rewritten on the fly, like that old Daffy Duck cartoon.
And the end of the book, they should've given us Iceman with flower petals around his head going "I've been bamboozled!"
Bisexual or Pansexual Bobby always seemed fit for me. Him being gay strikes me as weird because, yes, gay people could have dated women in their past. But Bobby has a strange history. Like a full-on womanizer and some stories have him head-over-heels about women. His relationships with men post-Bendis have been written will too. Surpisingly, Scott Lobdell also wrote stories implying Bobby as a closeted man before this. Maybe reach a middle ground? It sounds insensitive to decide a character's sexuality that way, but I can't think of a better one that keeps the retcon AND the previous history.
Aside from that, anyone notice how Bobby has become younger over the years? Both in the way he's drawn and in attitude.
It's weird, even around issue 300 of Uncanny X-Men, 30 years after he had been created, it's like he still hadn't grown up. Around issue 400 they describe him as a senior member of the team.
And ya, it's weird how he was written as a full on womanizer and then they try and retcon that he never was.
I love Jean and Bobby and I love all the queer characters but man this was the single worst thing they did to Bobby and to Jean. He became a stereotype one dimensional character and she outed someone with her invasive powers. Neither experience is right for the characters. I thought I would love it since I had a crush on Bobby since i was a teen but nope they just make him look younger and younger even now that he is back to his older self. Meh at best.
I tried to drawl a version where bobby is replaced by Billy, and jean says "Billy... you're straight" instead. I gave up part way through. I instead got Chinese food and played Pathfinder with some friends. I'm glad I have my proprieties right.
Except she forced Bobby out of the closet the better moment would be younger Bobby and older Bobby talking and embracing his younger selfs courage and finally accepting his true self for pride month
You’re gay
No, you're gay
We're gay
This was a Mr Show sketch.
“Okay, now Tobias, you be Lindsay.”
The weirdest thing around this time was in another X-Book a writer had Iceman flirting with Firestar, then this issue happens and in the other book Bobby and Angelica don't talk to each other after that lol.
This is a great example of what happens when a writer comes up with an agenda and pushes it regardless of the character's history or current events. Not against gay characters but this was a poor editorial decision, that's my opinion.
To be fair, Fabian Nicieza said that he and the other 90s writers often tried to out Bobby but editorial kept saying no.
Is this a joke or serious? I just saw him apparently saying Juggernaut was gay.
Even then it was out of place. Since inception Iceman was straight even in his inner monologues.
the agenda being…what, exactly?
Literally nothing changes with the bobby being gay, anyone who bitches about an "agenda" being pushed is so annoying
Agreed. Leave Bobby alone.
Unfortunately, I don't see Marvel undoing this..
Gotta love Bendis: “Bobby… you’re gay.” “I’m what?” “You’re gay” “He’s gay?” “He’s gay” “What does that even mean?” “It means you’re gay!” “Oh god I gotta call Northstar…” “He’s gay too!” “What?” “What!” “What the what?!?!” “Peter you need to calm down!” “I’m BOBBY!!” Worst dialogue writer of all time. He also thinks that continuity counts as a shortcut for his own ends. And I defend his overall macro stuff because I love that era of Marvel. But this is stupid.
The way he writes his dialogue was so innovative when was doing Daredevil and Alias, but today it's just... Yeah, Bendis.
They're gay now? They're gay now!
I hate the sequels
I hate sand.
I like turtles.
I also like turtles
I like trains.
I like lamp.
He believes he’s interpreting Mamet and Sorkin’s writing in comic form
I don’t think anyone is a worse dialogue writer than Gerry “I’m syncing with” Duggan. The only reason I made it through his X-men run was for Polaris content
Mmm. Coffee.
His cringe narration boxes still haunt me
The best thing to come out of bendis's writing style was the joke about the rocket and Racoon book being written by him because Gwenpool saw kitty Pryde in a place Kitty would never normally be.
See, comments like this make me feel like there’s a pretty clear divide between the Gen Z set and millennials/Gen Xers, when it comes to Bendis. Like, it’s not an exaggeration to call his pre-Avengers stuff *revolutionary* - for better or worse, his Daredevil, Alias, and USM have had as massive an influence on comics storytelling as anything since Miller and Moore…and I’d hold that we’ve yet to reach the next paradigm shift. He also lost his fastball 10-15 years ago! And that didn’t stop Marvel and DC from putting him on massive books with which his remaining strengths are very much misaligned!
It's so jarring to see people say that his dialogue style isn't how anyone actually talks. It's how GenX urban Jews talked. You know, like Seinfeld, the most successful tv comedy? And also Bendis himself. Readers at the time absolutely got the voice. The criticism was that the voice didn't work when he applied it too broad (like Doom during Mighty), but when it was the New Yorkers, people absolutely got it, and thought it fit!
But you highlighted the problem with your own comment. You called it “The Voice”. There is almost never any differentiation between characters. Spider-man could sound like Carol Danvers who could sound like Wong who could sound like Parker Robbins. It’s all just “The Voice”. Just because it worked for a while doesn’t mean it was a good choice.
Eh, it was versatile enough and he's a good enough writer that it pretty much worked on every character between 20 and 40 that was based in New York. Which did cover Carol. It's conversational and distinctive but didn't detract unless the character just wasn't conversational at all (Like Wong in your example). There's a reason he was comics' biggest writer for almost 20 years. It wasn't a fluke.
Honestly I just disagree and I have a feeling both of us can go back and forth for a while which I have no interest in doing. I definitely agree he was the biggest writer in Marvel due to his architecture and macro storytelling which I actually love. From Disassembled even all the way to Siege it felt like actions had consequences in 616 in a way I hadn’t seen before. Granted that changed as it always does but for a while the universe felt lived in. But I swear you could pluck a dialogue tree out of any Bendis written event and drop it into another and 8 times out of 10 you wouldn’t notice the switch. But I hear your point and you’re right, he was huge and made good comics. I just think his strengths were run into the ground when they shouldn’t have been. And his strengths haven’t been strong recently.
Yeah…neither u/TheBrobe nor I are talking about his late-2000s Avengers stuff, haha. Matt, Foggy, Ben, Fisk, Jessica, Luke, Danny, Pete, MJ, Christian, Deena, etc all have clearly distinct voices, even as they fall under the broad archetype of sharp, tough-talking New Yorkers. The problem is that he writes *everyone* like a sharp, tough-talking New Yorker, even when it doesn’t fit the character.
I know. I’ve also read his Daredevil and Alias stuff and some of his Image stuff like Powers and Jinx. I get what you’re saying, but the contemporary voice he uses today is so bad it actually makes me think less of his writing where it does work. It seems like he got lucky back in the day. Broken clocks and all that.
I really don’t think it’s about “luck” so much as it’s about *limitations*. Bendis is, fundamentally, a crime writer. Those are the stories he’s naturally good at telling. His “Big Avengers Idea” from Disassembled through Siege was *so damn good* that his inability to write dialogue besides “sharp sarcastic New Yorker” *didn’t matter*. After, they continued to put him on non-crime books and he kept taking the jobs…and now he’s a meme.
Can you help me understand what is Bendis writing style? I’m not too familiar with his work
It’s decompressed. Basically, he takes a dozen speech bubbles to say what one would. He has characters repeat the things they’ve heard.
Thank you
What’s Bendis’s writing style? Like, the writing style that Bendis uses? That writing style?
that was such a good joke, sad it had to come out of a sucky OOC Gwenpool cameo 😔
That's the problem he was dope when it was Spider-man. But the quirkiness fit with his personality. It's like he's stuck in this groove and can't adapt.
Yep I totally agree. He had great runs on Ultimate Spidey and Daredevil/Alias etc… but reading those runs again after reading stuff he made 15 years later actually makes me think less of the initial run. The recycling of character interaction is crazy.
It was even more unbearable when Teen-Jean dragged Teen-Bobby and Adult-Bobby into the same room and then they had a three-way discussion in the same exact voice. He has no concept of individual character tones - he even fucked up writing dialogue for Doctor Doom of all people (seriously, Doom has possibly the most distinctive “voice” of any comic character. If you can’t get him right you might as well give up).
Jean wasn’t as bad as people say but this was a pretty dick way to handle it. Yes it was good talking to him alone but being promoted to throw it in his face cause he called magik hot felt like reactionary response. They could have made a nice filler issue where they chill out and Bobby meets a guy or other teen hero and before they leave he gets that one stray thought that Jean picks up on. Make it fully clear she can’t control what she hears and give him a psychic message her lips are sealed so he can address and handle it how he wants too. Making her tell him what he should do after invading his privacy (albeit on accident) wasn’t right of her.
She handled it clumsily but she is a teenage girl. And as far as I remember this wasn't a one time reaction to him calling Magik hot. Bobby had been kind of creepy with women a few times at this point. The only thing she told him is that she thinks he's gay and he should talk to adult Bobby about it. To be honest as a queer person that came out in my late 20s I would have appreciated a friend that actually talked to me about this when I was younger, instead of many of them saying that they always knew/suspected 🥲.
I think this is complicated (as anything this personal will always be). We all have fictions we build about ourselves, and sometimes those fictions are as important to our mental well-being as breaking them down might be in other cases. You run a pretty massive risk by just deciding to confront someone about their most deeply held personal beliefs. Sometimes it might be just what someone needed to find the courage to be themselves, other times it might be... not that.
While I appreciate what I think is your intent, I really don't agree on one part. Saying that a fiction like this can be helpful to our mental health really minimizes the very real and personal struggles that come with staying in the closet. Lying to yourself about who you are is never going to be truly healthy in the long-term. Self-reflection and self-acceptance are incredibly important. Yes everybody is different and in an ideal world nobody would lie to themselves about who they are but people sometimes do need an external trigger. Should that trigger come in the form of a telepathic mutant girl? Maybe not. In the case of Bobby? Maybe yes. As you said it's complicated.
You're basically completely missing my point. My point is YOU, a bystander, don't know who needs that external trigger or not. They might, you're right. They ABSOLUTELY might, but assuming that you are the arbiter of that need is incredibly arrogant and if you're wrong when you're discussing stuff that is this complex, personal, and potentially tied to their self-identity and self-worth, the consequences could be massive. That was my point. Getting involved in stuff like this for another person is a risk. It might pay off. It might also end with them doing something terrible and you regretting your choice for life. It's not just 'honesty is always the best policy.' And to be clear I'm not just talking about coming out. There are LOTS of things that humans lie to ourselves about or, to perhaps use less loaded language, keep hidden from others for a variety of reasons. Some good, some bad. I knew a guy from China years ago who, as I knew him, was openly gay. However he had never told his mother because, as a Chinese person, he had no siblings. He had no cousins. Add to that, shortly after I met him his father committed suicide. This means that he was literally all his mother had. There was no one else. He chose to stay closeted for her becuase he felt that the dream of being a grandmother was a big part of what was keeping her together. For all I know (lost contact after we graduated) he eventually got married and had a kid simply to keep his mom happy. Now, there are a multitude of ways you could choose to criticize his choice, but when you're talking about people's lives like this and things that are so fraught, it's dangerous for an outsider to assume they have anywhere near enough information to make that decision. I'm not saying it's wrong exactly, and sometimes people are going to take that risk and it may turn out well, but it IS a risk.
> You're basically completely missing my point. My point is YOU, a bystander, don't know who needs that external trigger or not. They might, you're right. They ABSOLUTELY might, but assuming that you are the arbiter of that need is incredibly arrogant and if you're wrong when you're discussing stuff that is this complex, personal, and potentially tied to their self-identity and self-worth, the consequences could be massive. I'll be honest, I find this a strange accusation considering I agreed with you about this. I understand your point completely and am confused about this weirdly antagonistic response. I did not suggest that anybody should be the arbiter of other peoples needs and certainly don't think I hold that knowledge. What I was trying to convey is that, based on my personal experience, having someone bring that up for me could have been helpful. > And to be clear I'm not just talking about coming out. There are LOTS of things that humans lie to ourselves about or, to perhaps use less loaded language, keep hidden from others for a variety of reasons. Some good, some bad. This is the thing I disagreed with you on. And I still disagree even if it's not specific to coming out. Maybe you can list a specific example where lying to yourself might be good. Even still, we're talking about a specific comic scene about coming out so I don't see what the relevance is. > I knew a guy from China years ago who, as I knew him, was openly gay. However he had never told his mother because, as a Chinese person, he had no siblings. He had no cousins. Add to that, shortly after I met him his father committed suicide. This means that he was literally all his mother had. There was no one else. He chose to stay closeted for her because he felt that the dream of being a grandmother was a big part of what was keeping her together. For all I know (lost contact after we graduated) he eventually got married and had a kid simply to keep his mom happy. This is why I think that you missed my point. This example you provided about your friend from China is poignant, but it addresses a different issue: the choice to hide one's identity from others, in this case, his mother, due to cultural and familial pressures. This is distinct from the internal struggle of self-acceptance and the harm that can come from self-deception which is what I was addressing.
That’s fair i still think it was an improper response. She could have shut down the comments and behavior and dealt with him being gay separately. Throwing a curveball to him like that in the situation didn’t sit well with Bobby who even went on to call her on it as their adult selves. someone saying I knew/suspected always felt weirdly passive aggressive too me 😂. Imagine you tell someone you can’t fit a suit and they say it’s obvious. Much rather have someone talk directly (not in a Jean fashion) then let it out like that.
As someone who had friends and family theorise that I was gay both behind my back and in the open, the ideal situation is actually for people to mind their own business and create a welcoming environment for you to come out to.
Well to be fair, she saw that if they minded their business, 15 years in the future he'd still be in the closet, repressed/depressed, self depreciating with multiple failed relationships, and i guess she didn't want him to end up that way
Which is interesting, given they return to the past and have their memories locked away until the exact moment they left in the present, so Bobby still went through that closeted period.
Imo that was the most fucked thing about having to go back. Bobby managed to come out and accept himself and even experience some young love, but then he has to go back into the closet for the greater good. The end result is that Bobby got to retroactively be out as a teenager, but that doesn’t undo the misery
Well, to be fair, that's not her call. She doesn't get to decide how people should live.
As a gay man (out for about 35 years now) I get your point and I agree that LGBTQIA+ representation like this in comics is great for young people and even for straight allies. This Reddit conversation on this thread is fantastic! Geneshift, I respect your take but have a different one: Jean stole something from Bobby. She stole his right and opportunity to face this truth his own, stand and look at it, get okay with it, and then choose to tell others accordingly. There is something immensely powerful about that "facing yourself" moment(s) and forcing the vulnerability and courage from deep within to say, "I'm gay." That's a priceless, unrepeatable moment of turning that journey of crisis/faith/aloneness, whatever it is for that person, into strength. That moment in a young queer person's life can only happen once. She took it from him. You know how you're not supposed to help a butterfly out of a chrysalis or they won't be strong enough? Yah. Sameish. GeneShift, I appreciate your point that friends who can point that out might have made your journey easier. That works for you. Cool. I still think well-meaning friends who bring it up first ruin the proud and powerful moment to say, "This is who I am and I'm letting you see me."
Thanks for sharing that. I respect the importance of "facing yourself" and understand how powerful it can be to come out on your own terms. My argument is mostly that I would have preferred to have had 10+ years of truly knowing and living as who I am rather than spending that time constantly lying to myself and fighting it in or order to have that powerful moment of self-realization on my own. And the truth is some people never (or far later in life) discover that about themselves. And that's true for Bobby as well given we know Adult Bobby is still around lying to himself, which Jean also knows. I understand that it might feel like theft and can appreciate that, but I think that's kind of the wrong framing. Looking past the LGBTQIA+ aspect, there's a lot of things about myself that I have found out because of the help and work of other people (therapists/friends/family). I would never consider my conversations with those friends or family to have stolen something from me. Jean offered Bobby a mirror to see himself more clearly. As someone who came out later in life, I know firsthand how confusing and isolating those feelings can be. With Bobby the way he handled that confusion is by creeping on women. Having someone point out something you might be struggling to acknowledge can be a form of support and validation, not necessarily a theft of your moment. Bobby still has the power to define his journey and his narrative. Jean's intervention might just be the catalyst he needs to start that journey, but it doesn't diminish the bravery and significance of his eventual coming out. He still has to confront his truth, accept it, and decide when and how to share it with others. Jean doesn't force that on him, that process is still very much his own. Sorry for the mini-rant and thanks for reading it. It's something that I have a lot of thoughts about and not all of them are consistent lol. At the end of the day I think I come down on the side of everyone's experience with coming out being unique, and there's no one "right" or "ideal" way for it to happen. Well I guess that's not true, the ideal way would be growing up in a supportive household and community where there's no internal struggle and coming out as gay or trans or whatever is no different than anything else.
I was enjoying your reply until you informed me I had “the wrong kind of framing” for a way of thinking that was different than yours. A different opinion isn’t wrong because it’s not yours. It’s different. I was careful to emphasize that in my reply to you. Wish you had done the same instead of shaming me as wrong. Dang.
I apologize about that. I probably should have phrased it differently then. I wasn't trying to say your opinion is wrong. By saying "I think" I was more trying to highlight that it's a point where I disagree with you. I wish that the rest of that paragraph would have made it clear that it's my opinion, but I guess I failed in communicating it properly.
Your disagreement is welcome. And thanks for the nice apology.
They did it this way with lots of exposition so it couldn't be reversed later. They wanted to lock in the "Iceman is gay" retcon so no one could come along in 10 or 15 years and retcon their retcon. HE'S GAY AND THERE'S NOTHING YOU CAN DO ABOUT IT! Ridiculous, the whole thing just felt really forced. I feel like the X-books have come a long way in handling LGBTQ characters in series like Amazing X-Men, NYC Generation X, Krakoa X-Factor and Krakoa New Mutants. New Mutants Lethal Legion is also a really good mix of action and comedy featuring some newer trans characters. I'm hoping they continue this more organic treatment of LGBTQ mutants in NYX and Exceptional X-Men, fingers crossed.
It was forced and marvel retcons everything now and this won't stop someone who wanted to un-retcon it. The only thing that ever made sense about iceman being gay was that he had 40+ years of comics with few and short lived relationships (Opal and like 1 or 2 others). Edit: To the person who replied to me it was hinted at in the 90s and blocked me, you are a true coward. I replied to another person claiming it was "hinted at", when I pulled copies of the issues they referred to there was nothing of the sort. You are the person who didn't care about the truth.
It wasn't forced it was hinted at since the early 90's. I know straight people like you don't care about the truth but queer people come out late in life all the time, gay men before they come out often have brief relationships with women that end badly like Bobby did. Many gay men read him as gay for a long time because of that, and then writers started hinting at it for a while before they were allowed to make it canon. Just because you missed the foreshadowing doesn't mean it wasn't there.
Sexuality is VERY hard to retcon back, which is one of the reasons they really shouldn't just do it to everyone. The optics would be awful if they ever tried to undo it. Look how pissed people are about the non-throuple.
Character has barely been used since. Such a shame. They turned a character with 50 years of continuity into a stunt. To be clear I’m fine with gay characters. I’m not fine with retcons that damage a half century of storytelling.
I mean…those “50 years of history” largely consist of hum being a side character in a side book, when he’s used at all.
The fact you think him being gay damanged his storytelling shows you are not okay with queer people.
You can dislike retcons and not have a problem with queer people. I got a whole list of retcons I don't like, and this isn't really one that gets my attention. The whole Deadly Genesis thing was a stupid retcon along with many others.
She was every bit as bad as people say.
My unpopular opinion. How he came out. I would have loved a story of older Bobby discovering it and learning to love himself and who he really is. Then seeing his younger self and having a honest heart to heart talk to his younger self about this realization, past choices, … etc a whole life of Bobby and his realization and accepting of who he truly is and how he got to this point. I think the younger Bobby coming out just kinda weakened it and felt forcedish like what does that mean for all the other relationships.
As someone who stopped reading xmen in 98ish and started again in 2018ish with iceman as my fav character of all time, this was abrupt. Especially because jim lee bobby was a grizzled 40 yrs old in the early 90s but somehow he came out when he was a teenager? Ive come around though, but would prefer a top bobby not bottom
Family Guy actually called Iceman being gay years before this.
X-Men 2 (2003) had a scene of Iceman coming out to his parents as a mutant that was played out similar to how some children come out to their parents, including the "Have you tried not being a mutant?" reply from his mother. That was 3 years prior to the Family Guy scene and other comics that allude to Bobby as being gay, such as the panel with Deadpool in Marvel Girl's costume. If I had to guess, that scene planted a seed in people's minds that linked 'Iceman' with 'potentially gay' that sprouted into bloom when people were coming up with comedic scenes. The rest just snowballed (pun intended).
Have you seen that 90s comic with him and Jean in the book store?
The one where he wants Jean to help unlock his powers after Emma Frost took control of his body and showed him all the things he could do but was too afraid of trying? That was kind of Lobdell's thing with Iceman: showing him how powerful he was if he'd stop being scared of his powers. Mikhail Rasputin did pretty much the same thing with Bobby a few years before. Age of Apocalypse also showed a world where he 'let go.' That's also why Lobdell basically ended his run with Iceman vs Bastion. Part of his goal on that run was to make him a more popular character. It's debatable whether or not he pulled it off.
Bro. It was an X-MEN movie. By a gay director who leaned into the gay allegories, which were ALREADY a parallel in the comics for decades previous. Nobody watched that scene and thought “this must mean Iceman specifically is gay!”
https://youtu.be/hO7v_8dyrl0?si=ITRMKj8yCbyKw3Y_
“At least they know how to touch a man!”
Yeah, that'd be a jump. I don't love sexuality switches for this reason. I think Bobby's is one of the better handled ones simply because the whole joke that gave birth to it is true, he'd never really had much in the way of romance that was lost by doing this anyway, so while it is abrupt, it's also not in that meaningful of a way, compared to something like Tim Drake.
> I think Bobby's is one of the better handled ones Eh... compare it to something like Dr Charlene McGowan in Immortal Hulk where she is a scientist and important plot character first, and her being transgender only comes up later and is treated as not as important as her other attributes. If kept Iceman's personality and treated him being gay as a secondary characteristic instead of his now primary characteristic, I'd argue that it was handled well. Heck, even Northstar is primarily treated as an arrogant jerk superhero first and gay man second, though that's becoming less so over the years.
Was it really that abrupt, though? Lobdell was doing some *heavy* subtextual hinting all throughout the early-to-mid-'90s (Emma knowing Bobby's "secret" after they switched bodies, that issue when he and Rogue go on a road trip to see Bobby's parents and his dad's reaction makes it clear he thinks Rogue is another beard, etc.)
The "secret" was how much of a slacker he was with his powers. His dad had a problem with Rogue being a mutant. The only thing that ever really made sense is the character went 40+ years worth of comics and had few relationships (Opal and like 2 others) which were all short lived.
Lobdell has literally stated now that those were to imply Iceman was gay what’re u on about.
What are you on about? Is it this scene when Bobby has a gaping hole in his chest and he can't change back? Is that the "secret?" [https://www.reddit.com/r/xmen/comments/yjqe0c/iceman\_emma\_frost/](https://www.reddit.com/r/xmen/comments/yjqe0c/iceman_emma_frost/) Is it this scene where Bobby's dad has a problem with him dating non-white girlfriends? [https://shelfdust.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/12/unc3193-e1620941995305.png](https://shelfdust.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/12/unc3193-e1620941995305.png) I can't fathom how anyone looks at either of those scenes thinks that hints at being a homosexual. I don't know if Lobdell was pandering later on or what. Him not having any long term serious relationships is a way bigger hint than either of those things. Are there some other scenes you are referring to?
The way that first scene is clearly Emma making fun of Bobby for being in the closet, idk how else u would read that lmao
No, she was making fun of him for being a loser because he didn't know how to use his powers as well as she did when she switched bodies with him. Edit: Oh, you must be referring to the interior decorating joke. That's kind of a stretch, "not cut out to be an X-Man" . Not every joke like that implies someone is a homosexual. Especially in the context of his "secret" this conversation refers to where she doesn't even use that word.
Baby The writer has literally said that that was the intention of the scene what else can u ask for 😭
The discussion is a bit pointless because that interpretation has already been made canon, but I would not give credit to the authors. You either wrote a gay character or you didn't. You don't get to collect social credit afterward when back when it happened, your character was straight. It's just like JK Rowling with Dumbledore.
They did write him has gay as much as they were allowed they deserve credit for trying just as much as editorial deserves to be called out for being to bigoted to let it happen.
This. Even writer's explanations have to be taken with a grain of salt when it comes to stuff like this. Especially years later.
If the writer said 2+2 = 5, I wouldn't just buy it. Also why the name calling? Personal insults are unnecessary.
I think anybody, any real person could have telepathy and they would have handled this better than how this scene was written. Also, please don’t invade someone’s privacy and then out them on the spot.
Who did Jean out Bobby to?
The Watcher
Lmao
They were alone. She’s like fifteen years old. People aren’t perfect, especially not in dramatic fiction. Teen Jean’s not committing a war crime here. This is just some stupid meme opinion that’s been floating around since the rise of Web 2.0 intersected with late-Bendis fatigue.
Saying someone is fifteen isn't a defense, it's an explanation. It's still a stupid thing to do, being fifteen is just why they did that stupid thing.
Thank you!!!
Don’t worry. Telepaths aren’t a real thing.
…that’s exactly what a telepath WOULD say
It was shit back then, it still is.
I get this is kind of a joke. But as Hickman said, canon is what people remember. I’ve been rereading this era. It’s maddening how everybody on the Internet only wants to remember these panels out of context, like Rogue’s ass from the screenshot of TAS. Remember, this isn’t even the true coming out scene. It’s the first half, and the first time it’s introduced officially to readers, but the other one is the part where Bobby chooses to talk to his older self. (Who writers had been trying to make gay for a while.) *That’s* the part where we see his two voices from both sides of the alternate experience. Ice tears when you realize another version of you could have made a different choice to live more freely in a different era. Call me sentimental, but it was actually touching. As to the Jean of it all: Reminder that Beast begins the era by outing Jean to her telepathic power (which she didn’t know about/remember yet), then outing her to her *multiple* future deaths, then outing all of them by experience to their future lives, which are filled with a lot of torture, misery, and disappointment. The entire experience is an outing and a violation of knowledge they shouldn’t have. Bobby’s sexuality is the least of it. Even the sweet things, like Scott finding his own marriage invitation in a safety deposit box then becomes kind of a problem because knowing this ahead of time makes it feel like destiny instead of a choice, so understandably, they rebel. And then in this setting, teen Jean, yes, behaves like a brat with boundary issues—who wouldn’t? all people have to learn social boundaries, psychics would be no different—in this setting Jean looks around and goes, “Okay, I’m dead and destined to be entangled with a cosmic force, Scott killed our teacher, Angel gets mutilated and becomes evil and then gets mind wiped, Beast apparently doesn’t care about being scientifically unethical, and Bobby’s big problems is… that he’s closeted and miserable? Oh come on, Bobby you have the fixable problem here! You’re gay!” Nobody said the story was about Jean doing the right thing all the time. (When has a good Jean story *ever* been about Jean doing the right thing all the time?) However, it absolutely makes sense as a character beat. Plus, what is “the right thing” anyway? That question is part of the time travel plot. Teen Scott can’t imagine working with Magneto, but do we find adult Scott wrong? Adult Jean never talked to Bobby about these feelings directly. Was he any happier for it? Would you weigh one blunt conversation with a close friend against a lifetime of greater acceptance?
The most controversial gay moment in modern Marvel history. Well, actually, the Mystique wedding stuff should probably be more controversial for reasons outlined by Anole but...
I don't care on the details of Mystique's relationship, Azazel, who looks just like freaking Nightcrawler even with similar powers is his dad. Bobby being a closet homosexual makes way more sense than that.
Kinda dig teen jean being flawed. Not like this, maybe, but still..
This…. Was something that could have been an amazing addition to Bobby Drake as a character but…. Bendis gotta Bendis so… ham fisted and half assed it is.
The panels aren't well done but the idea of Jean helping Bobby come to terms with his sexuality isn't a bad one. Considering the history of bigotry in his family and his subconscious repression of his mutant ability after M Day, there is a lot that can be explored with this. I don't think Jean is wrong here. What she did to Warren was way worse than this.
This moment makes no sense. Bobby was into girls for like his entire life then all of a sudden. 'Bobby your gay.' I hate retcons.
In the old days, most gay guys were with girls their entire life. You do know Bobby is from that era right? This whole he can’t be gay cause he had a girlfriend is one of the dumbest things I’ve heard.
It just goes both ways, really. I think it's fine when people don't think Bobby was written as gay, he wasn't always intended to be. It feels disingenuous to ignore / repurpose all past stories and characterization because of a new direction someone took a character in, or dismiss people's opinions because of it. But at the same time, yeah, it's not like "guy dated women in the past = he can't be gay", because that's very much a normal thing, and lots of people can relate to it. Not everyone comes to terms with their sexuality in the same way, and there's been people who DID write Bobby with him being gay in mind, even before this happened.
It's just as disingenuous to act like writers like Scott Lobdell, Chuck Austen and Marjorie Liu weren't dropping hints or trying to have Bobby come out for *years* only to have editorial block them. Bendis was just the first one with enough clout to push it through.
Lobdell says he wasn't, intending for him to have a romance with Emma Frost, and Austen did his best to disprove it by having Northstar deny it.
Both lobdell and Austen have said they wrote Bobby as in the closet what’re u on about?
Lobdell said he wrote Bobby's relationship with his parents like an out gay man's. Austen said that after his run and Bendis's , but in addition to Northstar, he had Bobby affected by a female mutant whose powers only worked on people attracted to her. It seemed like he was trying to prove Bobby wasn't gay, which he'd hardly admit after his outing.
Austen has said he was going to make Bobby bi not gay which explains that choice
I mean, that's why I specifically mentioned that people did write him with that intention too, before the reveal. People should be able to accept both sides of it - Bobby has been around for a long time with different writers. There's people who don't in bad faith, but that's a different issue.
Of course he wasn’t initially written as gay. Back then it was only straight and white. Should we not have any minority characters either? The O5 were all white after all. Times change. Those still complaining about Iceman being gay? Deal with it suckers! I’m not talking to you btw, just the “only obscure characters should be gay” crowd.
tbf you can also create new characters for that, they just did with the kid juggernaut some weeks ago who happens to be gay
Nope! That can be worse than being an “obscure” character. Representation needs to be seen amongst MAIN characters. The MAIN characters from decades ago are still the main characters NOW with very rare exceptions (Magik, Laura, Ms Marvel). There were no original minority MAIN XMEN characters because of hateful/ignorant beliefs like racism and homophobia.
I mean, you can make a new main character. There’s no reason why not. Like Storm. New character, minority, also main character.
And why wouldn't the guaranteed huge support for this new minority character immediately make them a main character?
Next you’ll tell me that Rock Hudson was gay!
Okay I'm sorry I just noticed he's been with girls before and I thought that'd mean he's into girls.
Compulsive heterosexuality is a real thing dude look it up
Okay I'm sorry I wrote it four times I assumed he's into girls. 😐
I dated plenty of girls before I started kneeling for boys
Good for you.
Actually, it was analyzed that he had a history of FAILED relationships that easily fit a deeply closeted man who was trying too hard.
The problem there is that by necessity almost every character in marvel has a history of failed relationships, and it doesn't reflect on their sexuality. People are afraid to admit that Bobby was not meant to always be gay and it was a retcon of his character, which is weird because it doesn't diminish anything about him being gay now (although frankly nothing else about him changing when it's supposed to be a deeply rooted problem he's been dealing with is.. a choice).
> People are afraid to admit that Bobby was not meant to always be gay and it was a retcon of his character Nobody is actually afraid to admit this. Nobody thinks Stan Lee meant for Bobby to be gay. Just like nobody thinks that he meant for Xavier to be a morally compromised character, or for Magneto to be a holocaust survivor, or for Beast to be a hairy blue war criminal and on and on. None of that means we can't try to make sense of original characterization in light of new information/retcons. That's how long running comics work.
Not a single person acts like the original creator thought Bobby was gay. That has never once been argued.
I KNOW I JUST ASSUMED HE LIKED GIRLS BECAUSE HE DATED KITTY PYRDE AND A FEW OTHER FEMALE CHARACTERS.
Soooo, you know nothing about Bobby, or being gay, got it.
Y'all do know he's a fictional character, right
Yes, a fictional story with a character history who also happens to be gay.
A fictional character with a history who was straight before and then editorial decided to make him gay.
So you don’t understand anything about being gay, got it.
This has nothing to do with being gay because Bobby "Iceman" Drake is not real. He is a fictional character whose life is dictated by writers and editors. If he was real, you'd be right. But this is nothing more than a retcon. They could do the same thing to Cyclops or Wolverine if they weren't too afraid of potential backlash or mucking up the continuity.
So there is no real experience to draw on? There are no situations in which a man exclusively dated women to appear to be straight until they came to terms with being gay? That doesn’t happen at all? There is no parallel? You genuinely have no idea what you are talking about.
Again, not a real person. Bobby was never intended to be gay from the jump. It was merely fortunate circumstance that the characters history worked out in a way where the change worked.
🤣 Okay, not being a real person doesn’t mean the character doesn’t draw on parallels to real life. Iceman was chosen because his story most lined up with a lived experience of gay men. I’m sorry Bobby being gay bothers you 🤷🏻♂️
Just because on one as every felt safe enough around you to come out later in life doesn't mean it doesn't happen. A lot of gay men have a history of chasing after and dating women, it doesn't make them any less guy. They deserve to see themselves in stories as well.
Wow, who would've thought.
I literally quote "Bobby you're gay" like twice a week
I like the idea that it would take a time traveler to make Bobby come out of the closet albeit awkwardly, so powerful is X-Drama lol.
I think Jean did it because she saw that future Bobby was still deeply in the closet and had a history of failed relationships. Seeing this she figured it was best if she ripped the bandaid and tell him to his face. It has to be frustrating seeing a good friend stay in the closet for decades when you know for certain they are gay.
Is there any hints that he was gay in the last 40 years or am I gonna get called a bigot for asking this question?
Yes, there's a lot of scenes that can be interpreted as subtext thought the 60's through the 80's, but starting in the 90's several writers have intentionally written him as gay, and him "refusing to accept a part of himself" having a limiting effect on his power.
In the late 70s. There is a flash back when jean joins the group. Charles welcome here in the entrance of the mansion and the rest of the team watch her from a window. Angel, Beast and Cyclops say things about she being hot. (It's a flashback about the frst time Scott saw her). Bobby Say something like "it's just a girl" and leaves. Only thing i can remember, but Also bobby was the youngest so You can read that like he was not into women yet or he was not as a horny as the rest of his Friends
Man that's some Reed Richards level of stretch
The weird part is that at the time Present Day Bobby and Kitty Pryde were dating (or starting to date at least) over in Wolverine and the X-Men when Young Bobby came out. Then suddenly Bendis immediately had Kitty Pryde start Dating Star Lord (When we was writing GotG and Star Lord's solo book). which is suspicious when the same thing happened in Ultimate Spider-Man. Since she started dating Peter Parker the first chance Bendis got to pair the two. Coupled with the fact that Colossus was Gay in that universe, it really seems suspicious that Bendis immediately shuts down Bobby being Bi (Which would have made so much more sense, let's be honest) to the point it becomes "Did Bendis reveal Bobby Drake was Gay (But makes a point to shut down him being Bi) just so he could write Kitty Pryde dating a Peter he was writing?" for a while. Because by this point, Bobby Drake being Gay is established and has a dedicated fan base. But back then it raised so many issues
I will die on the hill that if ur going to change Bobby’s sexuality being gay makes way more sense then bi. Him specifically not being happy with his female partners is a huge part of his character and holding himself back completely explains why he doesn’t ever use the full extent of his powers, if he’s bi he’s still being himself to some extent. I also just think that from my experience bi men don’t relate to that coming out experience but that’s not for me as a gay man to say.
Without context. So Jean made Bobby gay? She can do that?
It would be an interesting thing if telepaths can change people's identities or likes and see how long it lasts.
shes a telekinetic as well, so she can activate the gay gene in bobby
Yea lol 😂
This scene really became iconic for all the wrong reasons.
The most annoying thing about this was that there were writers who wanted to have Bobby be gay/bi for years, but Marvel always said no, but then it becomes profitable to have an major gay character and they force Bendis to put it into his first issue despite it already being overly full leading to this infamous scene. If they had given this to a writer interested in telling this story, it could be great, but instead it just feels forced.
How did you get *so much wrong*? They didn't force Bendis to do it. Bendis convinced them to finally make it happen. It wasn't Bendis' first issue, it was All New X-Men *#40*. Over three years after he started. There were plenty of hints and the dynamic between him and Jean which flowed into this was established. You can not like the scene, that's a perfectly valid and popular opinion. But you're just making shit up to justify your points.
I just read Bendis’ All-New X-Men story for the first time a few weeks ago. This scene was NOT in the first issue. I’m not sure where you’re getting that but that’s objectively wrong. It’s issue #40 which is a far cry from issue #1 like you said. You might have misremembered, maybe. I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt for that. You don’t have to like the revelation itself but your reasoning is incorrect
This isn't from his first issue, based off the costumes this is from the mid-late part of ANX
This. Iceman has been my favorite X-men/ superhero since I was 7. I remember specifically a day at KB Toys my mom said I could get one toy and I picked the Iceman with the slide that you could actually freeze water in. I have no issues with him being Gay, I am Bi myself, but how it was done I find so… hollow.
Probably because it never amounted to anything substantial for his character other than an increase in sassy dialogue
It *does* feel forced, but that's because whenever Bendis does *anything* it always feels forced, his one plot is "things happen just because". But he's always been very clear that it was his initiative, and that it had nothing to do with being profitable (ANX #40 wasn't some big anniversary issue, and wasn't marketed as The Big Bobby's Gay Issue).
This retcon is not to be celebrated instead celebrate characters like Northstar or Anole.
When was this a thing?
He's been gay for like at least a decade 💀
Well then..learned something new.
😁👍
They originally had it only as a back then moment in an original X-Men retelling, then they made it mainstream later on.
Wait, don't cut off the art depicting Jean waving her hands like ...\*waves hands around suggestively\* you know..
I did not think this would cause such a stir lmao 🤣✋
This is one of those comic moments that facilitated a lot of toxic discourse. Probably doesn't help that some people really hate Jean, some really hate that Bobby is gay, and some really hate Bendis. Also a lot of time has passed and this specific panel has been memed to oblivion, so a lot of context before and after this is lost. And somehow reddit is worse about this one than twitter.
I'll cop to being a Bendis hater, especially considering how Bobby's coming out *could* have been handled if it'd been written by Liu or Gillen or Aaron or literally anyone else in the talent pool.
The best/worst part of this is that Bobby acts like a character who is being rewritten on the fly, like that old Daffy Duck cartoon. And the end of the book, they should've given us Iceman with flower petals around his head going "I've been bamboozled!"
Bisexual or Pansexual Bobby always seemed fit for me. Him being gay strikes me as weird because, yes, gay people could have dated women in their past. But Bobby has a strange history. Like a full-on womanizer and some stories have him head-over-heels about women. His relationships with men post-Bendis have been written will too. Surpisingly, Scott Lobdell also wrote stories implying Bobby as a closeted man before this. Maybe reach a middle ground? It sounds insensitive to decide a character's sexuality that way, but I can't think of a better one that keeps the retcon AND the previous history. Aside from that, anyone notice how Bobby has become younger over the years? Both in the way he's drawn and in attitude.
It's weird, even around issue 300 of Uncanny X-Men, 30 years after he had been created, it's like he still hadn't grown up. Around issue 400 they describe him as a senior member of the team. And ya, it's weird how he was written as a full on womanizer and then they try and retcon that he never was.
Still don’t like this
I still think it's written as her brainwashing him. I know it's not what happen, but it should have been better written
We actually don’t know if Jean brainwashed him. It’s as plausible as pretending that 50 years from now Bobby not being gay never happened.
That was rude. Some of the worst writing in marvel comics.
I love Jean and Bobby and I love all the queer characters but man this was the single worst thing they did to Bobby and to Jean. He became a stereotype one dimensional character and she outed someone with her invasive powers. Neither experience is right for the characters. I thought I would love it since I had a crush on Bobby since i was a teen but nope they just make him look younger and younger even now that he is back to his older self. Meh at best.
I tried to drawl a version where bobby is replaced by Billy, and jean says "Billy... you're straight" instead. I gave up part way through. I instead got Chinese food and played Pathfinder with some friends. I'm glad I have my proprieties right.
I wonder which of the many women he banged and dated long term turned him. Probably Mystique.
That's not how this works. That's not how any of this works.
I was joking. Iceman was not gay for a very, very long time. Then they made him gay.
Probably the psychic redhead
Except she forced Bobby out of the closet the better moment would be younger Bobby and older Bobby talking and embracing his younger selfs courage and finally accepting his true self for pride month
I think the post was a joke (the joke being how terrible and cringe-worthy this panel was/is)
Guys please it was a joke 😰
Should I call you mistah??
This is still completely out of the blue and unnecessary change
They ruined the character
The funniest retcon of all time
Pick a better image. Jean was so shitty here.