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Hyrule Warriors Ganon(dorf) is pretty much just BotW Ganon but if it managed to fully awaken without getting disturbed by Zelda.
BotW Ganon is Ganondorfs literal anger taking form (and maybe a bit of his magic, but mostly his anger.)
Why does Zelda in BoTW state that Ganon gave up his ability to reincarnate to turn into his final form? Is it a bad translation or am I misremembering?
It’s a mistranslation because the English version says he has given up on his goal to reincarnate to become dark beast Ganon and the Japanese said that dark beast Ganon is born out of his refusal to give up on reincarnation
Nope, the entire side quest has almost no romantic themes in the original Japanese text. Any mention of love came directly from Finley, who is ACTUALLY a child in this localization
It is a bad translation, but it's also just a common misunderstanding.
Calamity Ganon "gave up on reincarnation" because Link got in the way. Calamity Ganon had built a cocoon to create a new body for itself. Link intervened before this new body was completely finished. So Calamity Ganon gave up on creating a new body for itself and tried to kill Link and Zelda with just its current form.
It had nothing to do with literal death and reincarnation. It was just about the metaphorical reincarnation of a formless being giving itself a new body (and then giving up on that new body).
I thought it was because it had Astor to use as a base plus some extra future malice in AOC, while the spider from BOTW was thrown together in a rush when Link woke up.
This does make the most sense. I think of it as being like the Greek mythos. Yes, they use the same characters, but none of it actually makes sense in a linear canon since the stories were mostly designed as plays to teach morals to people. The stories are disjointed, some might reference a past story, but ultimately they aren't some perfect scripture.
I think the Zelda Timeline only exists because fans demanded it.
Anything prior to BotW was shoehorned into a timeline as a cope. Like the original comment said, only direct sequels make sense, and maybe a couple other instances, but clearly not all were designed to fit together.
That's not entirely true, there's a reason why they called it A Link to the Past. The timeline stuff started to get more confusing with TP/WW but they definitely intended them to be sequels to OoT
A Link to the Past was pure USA marketing. The game is called Triforce of the Gods. LTTP was made up later because they didnt want religious references in Nintendo games at the time.
Nah it’s all pretty obvious. There’s tons of videos on YouTube explaining the timelines and what order everything takes place. Once it’s laid out in front of you and explained, it’s not that confusing. A lot of people really struggle with it for some reason.
The timeline was always a mess. References and sequels don’t change that. Some Zelda games take place after other Zelda games but to shoehorn all Zelda games into a timeline has never worked without issues.
Yeah but prior to BOTW Nintendo had always been explicit as to what games were sequels or prequels to other games. Zelda 2 was explicitly a sequel to Zelda 1, ALTTP was a prequel to Zelda 1, OOT a prequel to ALTTP, Wind Waker a sequel to OOT, TP a sequel to OOT and SS a prequel to OOT.
There is a pretty solid chance, given the overall lack of major universe destroying paradoxes, that every time someone time travels, a new, parallel timeline is created. New Link, new Zelda, new everything starting at the moment something in time was changed and reflecting that new reality in the present when a new alternate timeline is created. These possibilities are infinite.
Some of the events of some of the games are on the same timeline, like Zelda 1 and 2, etc.
The "Legend" is basically a Mandella effect from the creation (and occasional intermingling) of these parallel worlds.
That, plus tens of thousands of years of cataclysms erasing history, and even the timeline of each parallel world gets fuzzy.
If you can square with that, it makes sense. If not, youre going to chase your tail trying to figure it out. If you really want to save the frustration, just imagine every game as a different retelling of the same legend.
Botw’s Ganon is TotK’s Ganondorfs power leaking from under hyrule castle. It’s actually scary to think that the Ganon you killed in the first game was only a fraction of the power of Ganondorf….
Works as a great contrast to just how powerful his hate is, Ganondorf's hatred for this world was so powerful that even in imprisonment, his power leaks and causes a fucking apocalypse.
His raw hatred alone allowed him to take over an army of robots? Are we sure he’s not the true triforce of wisdom? I wish my uncontrolled hatred allows me to control an army of robots.
I mean technically it was the Demon King. Ganondorf was not even close to being that powerful before (spoiler ahead) >!killing Sonia and stealing her secret stone!<.
Skyward Sword explains that Ganondorf is the reincarnated being following Demise, a villain in Skyward sword who hated the gods and wished to destroy the world and form it as his own. So Ganondorf's intent was ultimately Demise's intent, Ganondorf is only an incarnation of him.
So for 10k years, ganon's power has been periodically leaking from the sealed ganondorf and causing havoc across hyrul, and nobody ever thought to check the damn basement?
I forgot where I read it but I think it was a plaque under the castle grounds somewhere. It said the castle was built to keep people away so the seal wouldn't be broken. Seemed to me they knew how fragile it was and the castle was meant to quite literally serve as a buffer.
Then since Zelda wasn't handed knowledge by her dumb ass father she was kept in the dark an inevitably did the exact thing the Royal family was supposed to prevent.
They went in to investigate yeah, but they went in knowing nothing instead of being aware of the situation ahead of time. To me it seems Ganon used the situation to switch strategy once the institutional knowledge of his seal was destroyed. He was outpouring malice and did so every 10,000 years but this time he switched strategy. Not only that but he did so only a few years after his defeat right when doing so would be the most advantageous to him. That's not very believable as a coincidence to me.
I mean didn’t they go down there because gloom had been leaking out in the kingdom already? It wasn’t like they just went down for fun she was investigating the source.
"Maybe I should give the daughter whose last memories of me were when I was being a total hardass some closure and a heads up before I go.
"...Nah, Rhoam out!"
I only had 4 hearts due to gloom, no gloom healing items or ingredients, and only a couple hearty foods... It felt like a goddamn souls boss. 10/10 would recommend
fool that I was I went down there with no gloom healing items and just got bodied time after time. I had to load a save from before I triggered the boss fight and come back with a ton of sunny meat to manage it.
But that was with a pretty barebones health/weapon pool. It would probably be a cakewalk now that I'm at 100 hours
So that body we found in the beginning of the game is Ganondorf? Which is way stronger?
Sorry im new to the game and i dont know these characters. Ganon and Ganondorf confuses me.
Ganondorf is always used to refer to the actual man himself, the name Ganon refers to the different monstrous forms he's taken over the series. They're both the same character.
During BotW Ganondorf is sealed under the castle all that time, but his hatred and power manifested into Calamity Ganon. Defeating the calamity was only a temporary fix, but now his actual body has been freed in TotK, and of course that means he is able to use his full strength.
The Calamity Ganon in both Botw and Age of Calamity are creations made of gloom(malice) that Totk Ganondorf releases when sealed. We don't know if they followed his will or if they just wanted to destroy Hyrule because they wanted to.
If you go to Impa in Kakariko after finishing some main quests, she actually talks to you about the Calamity and confirms that Calamity Ganon is a manifestation of the Demon King's hatred.
So I assume that Ganondorf was so pissed about being locked up for 10's of thousands of years that Calamity Ganon and Malice formed and therefore are probably going of pure hatred, I don't think they have much of a mind to begin with.
To be fair, 10’s of thousands could be anywhere between 10,000 and 100,000 really
We don’t exactly know how long ago it was but I’d wager it’s not longer than 100,000
no. unless they ret connect the history of botw. 10 000 yesrs ago was the first successful fend off of calamity ganon with the shiekah tech/ guardians.
If you’ve done every main quest except for destroy Ganondorf and find Princess Zelda (which were the ones I’ve not done cause you literally can’t) and you’ve talked to Impa and she’s said that she’ll go back to Kakariko, she should be in Paya’s room in the chief’s house upstairs.
HW: AoC Ganon is not canon
BotW Calamity Ganon is the manifestation of Ganondorf's Malice
TotK Ganondorf is the origin of the Malice and Gloom that plagues the world. He is a corpse that resides under Hyrule Castle.
So Ganondorf the corpse is the origin of the power that is Calamity Ganon. Calamity Canon isn't a character as much as it is just power given form
Where does it state that Ganon is a demon that inhabits Ganondorf???
Impa actually states in TotK that Calamity Ganon is a manifestation of the demon king's (Ganondorf's) hatred while he's been sealed under Hyrule Castle.
yeah, Ganon is his Demon formbut the commenter above was saying that Ganon is a demon inhabiting Ganondorf
There's a difference between Ganon being a demon inhabiting Ganondorf and Ganon being Ganondorf's Demon form (The first implying they're two separate entities, and the second implying they are the same person taking on different forms)
OP saying Ganon inhabits Ganondorf isn't at all correct.
Demise is the demon that inhabits Ganondorf and Ganon is their hybrid.
Zelda is Demise's counter and they are locked in constant reincarnation since Demise cursed Zelda in Skyward Sword. Link helped once and got dragged into the reincarnation cycle along with Impa, Beedle, and possibly Tingle.
Demise doesn't inhabit Ganondorf
Ganondorf is just a reincarnation of Demise's Hatred
Demise's curse is that an incarnation of his hatred will follow the Hero's Spirit (Link) and those with the blood of the Goddess (Zelda)
Demise and Ganondorf are completely different beings until Demise cursed Ganondorf, imparting a portion of his soul. Ganondorf was just one of the few male Gerudo born and his body was prime for Demise to use in taking over Hyrule and finally obtaining the missing pieces of triforce and eliminating the goddess.
Where is this said?
Demise says: "*Though this is not the end. My hate... never perishes. It is born anew in a cycle with no end! I will rise again! Those like you... Those who share the blood of the goddess and the spirit of the hero... They are eternally bound to this curse. An incarnation of my hatred shall ever follow your kind, dooming them to wander a blood-soaked sea of darkness for all time!*"
Demise then gets sealed away in the Master Sword, there's nothing saying that a portion of his soul is in Ganondorf. Ganondorf is just an incarnation of Demise's hatred.
This is true, although anytime “Ganon” is featured it is a pig like beast and “Ganondorf” is a Gerudo male born once every 100 years.
Now that we have both Ganon and Ganondorf appear in a canonical setting, it stands to reason that Ganon is a metaphysical incarnation of Demise’s power. Primal, evil, chaotic. Ganondorf, on the other hand, is often depicted as a human with tendencies of malice that drive him to obtain power. He seems to “unlock” his full potential passed to him by Demise.
I find it a poetic interpretation to view Link, Zelda, and Ganondorf as a trio of cursed individuals doomed to repeat a destiny they have no control over until the end of time. And endless battle between light and dark. Ganondorf may be an incarnation of evil but he may not be literally the thinking mind of Demise until he is possessed by that force.
Ganon really has nothing to do with Demise at all. Ganondorf has always been an instrument of Demise's curse, but that alone didn't make Ganon.
Ocarina of Time makes it pretty clear that "Ganon" is a result of the Triforce of Power or some other magical element that brings what's inside Ganondorf's heart to the surface.
He's a boarish pig, and Ganon is his outsides finally matching his insides.
Usually it's the Triforce of Power that forces Gaondorf's true colors to the surface, but it's been other things before as well, like the Trident, or just existing in places like The Dark World.
These things have been shown to apply to Link as well, but less frequently, like how the Hero of Twilight was turned into a Wolf by his triforce piece in TP, or how The Hero of Legend became a bunny when he first entered the Dark World in ALTTP.
You're right up until the very end. The other people who appear are entirely coincidental. The Sheikah people commonly use the name Impa, Beedle is only in a few games, and same with Tingle.
If they were in the cycle they'd be in every game. It's literally just "for whatever reason there have been multiple instances in history of a man named Beedle becoming a travelling Beetle-based merchant".
Total of 5 Beedles have existed (7 games, but two games are the same Beedles). I guess 5 Beedles is pushing "a few" but the main point is that he's clearly not tied to the cycle of rebirth or anything like that (otherwise he'd be in *every* game)
Seven by my count: OoT, MM, FSA, TMC, TP, BotW, TotK.
Link is also shown riding a horse that looks like Epona in the Oracles, though it isn’t named.
This is not counting Hyrule Warriors.
Demise is the demon who planted a curse on Ganondorf to resurrect while also granting him power. Ganon is not a separate entity. Ganon is a phase or form in which Ganondorf taps into Demise' energy.
Yes, I mean when he himself turns into Ganon it’s usually because of the triforce. The blights, phantoms, puppets, and calamities are not Ganondorf himself
Interesting thin with calamity Ganon and the reincarnation thing, in English zelda states Ganon has given up on it and assumed the pure enraged form of dark beast, but in Japanese she stated that Ganon is *obsesed* with reincarnation, and assumed the form of dark beast
Some folks are incredibly passionate about disputing that. Back in April I stated that HW isn't canon and a certain user got so upset that they started a whole new topic just to "prove" that it was canon, but most folks downvoted them to oblivion lol
Hyrule warriors isn’t canon
Botw ganon is Totk ganondorf’s hatred being cast into the world, not being a physical threat but a corrupting one
Totk ganondorf is the real deal, having escaped containment beneath the castle
It's basically its own thing. It is canon to BOTW, as in it connects to BOTW to tell its story (instead of just doing whatever it wants, like the first HW), but it's not part of the mainline games and their timelines. HW has its own timeline, while TOTK is the canonical sequel to BOTW.
Hyrule warriors- different thing
TOTK Ganondorf the demon king who got sealed
BOTW Calamity Ganon who was born out of Ganondorfs power leaking trough the castle. Call it his anger, despair whatever you want but that power which was leaking out of him is what formed Calamity Ganon.
To put it simple Calamity Ganon is just a fraction of Ganondorfs power who couldn't be fully sealed
BOTW Ganon is his malice and attempt to break free, then realizing he couldn't so he played dead and let his puppet appear to die
TOTK Ganondorf, he got more time to break his imprisonment and his malice / calamity became more concentrated.
(Interesting note)
>!In the Spirit Temple the construct that he has stolen from Mineru looks like one of the blights and seems to have both Gloom and Malice inside it and both dissipate when you beat the construct (they are distinctly two different colors)!<
So you're implying that he tried to control that construct during the calamity but couldn't do it completely? But now with gloom he can. Or he could control it but it's more powerful with gloom.
The way I understand it, Calamity Ganon is the pure incarnation of Demise’s curse. He shows up 10,000 years prior to the events of BotW, and again 100 years prior. Ganondorf is a humanoid manifestation of that curse that showed up at the founding of the Kingdom of Hyrule, untold years before TotK, but presumably thousands of years before the original Shiekah Tech helped Link and Zelda to seal away calamity Ganon (I would bet on many 10s of thousands of years before TotK, because knowledge of the Zonai in BotW is even harder to come by than the ancient Sheikah tech). All this to say that Demise’s curse can manifest itself in several forms and needn’t necessarily be limited to one. Ganondorf slumbered beneath Hyrule castle during both of the times Calamity Ganon revealed itself, and who knows how long before that.
So Demise's curse isn't actually a literal magic curse. It's more of a threat/promise than an actual curse. It was mistranslated pretty badly outside of Japan, but the Japanese version makes it clear that Demise isn't casting a curse to make an incarnation of his hatred keep appearing; he's actually informing Link and Zelda that he has made it so that all of the demons he has created are able to reincarnate, so they will keep appearing time and again in Hyrule forever. This is the explanation for why Octoroks, Keese, Moblins, etc. keep appearing in Hyrule.
Ganondorf wasn't born a demon. He was a man who used magic to transform himself into a demon. Because he's not naturally a demon, that means he wasn't part of the demon tribe that Demise created with the ability to reincarnate. Ganondorf is simply able to reincarnate because all natives of the Light World are naturally able to reincarnate. Ganondorf is able to elevate himself to the level of Demon King and take control of the demon tribe for himself, but that's as much as he is related to Demise. They don't really have that much of a connection.
HW/BoTW is just a manifestation of ToTK sealed Ganondorf's anger I believe, it would make sense as BoTW's Ganon and the gloom from ToTK look awfully similar
Ganondorf was sealed during the Imprisoning War >10,000 years ago. His malice slowly leaked out and manifested in the form of the Calamity Ganon, which attacked Hyrule countless times throughout its history.
The seal binding Ganondorf slowly decayed during that time, and finally broke at the beginning of Tears of the Kingdom.
That’s basically it.
As ever though, this game retcons or contradicts previously established lore. I haven't finished the game yet but so far, this Ganondorf was sealed away by Hyrule's first king, even though according to previous canon, the Imprisoning War happened long after Ocarina of Time, in which the kingdom of Hyrule has already been established for presumably quite some time. So the timeline is in disarray again. They really need to just admit at this point that the timeline is improvised bs or that BotW is a completely alternate universe rather than timeline.
I’ve honestly always been open to there being more than one mortal incarnation of Ganon. The entire mcguffin of a male Gerudo being born once a century, destined to become the Gerudo King; has always seemed like justification enough for the concept.
So if a new encyclopedia or Aonuma himself stats that this is the case; I wouldn’t even consider it a retcon. The groundwork for such an explanation already exists.
It's honestly not difficult to fix. We know that BotW/TotK Hyrule is different from OoT Hyrule. It has the Great Plateau as its birthplace. Its Zora's Domain was only founded 10,000 years before BotW, around the time the Divine Beasts first defeated Calamity Ganon. Since it's not the same Hyrule, Rauru can easily be the first king of BotW/TotK Hyrule, and the game can take place well after Ocarina of Time. We know that there have been previous disasters in the kingdom in which Hyrule and the royal family have ceased to be (see TWW's back story and SS's back story), so something like that having happened before TotK's back story, and the Hylians not remembering old Hyrule/the old royal family allows Rauru to be the first king of this new Hyrule without any issue.
And two different wars both being called the Imprisoning War despite their events being wildly different and happening at very different times is another very minor issue in the grand scheme of things.
The real canon question: Ganondorf in Wind Waker is supposed to be the same guy as in Twilight Princess, who is supposed to be the same guy as Ganon in Link to the Past and the Original NES Zeldas (albeit in different branches of the timeline) who is the same Ganondorf as in Ocarina of Time.
Does TOTK retcon Ganondorf’s origin from Ocarina of Time, or is it saying that the whole time every other post-Minish Cap game was going on was there a second Ganondorf sealed beneath the castle and them having the same name is a coincidence?
I think the Switch games are on their own timeline.
I've never given the concept much weight honestly, trying to fit such a cyclical story into a linear history barely worked in Castlevania, and they genuinely tried.
> The real canon question: Ganondorf in Wind Waker is supposed to be the same guy as in Twilight Princess, who is supposed to be the same guy as Ganon in Link to the Past and the Original NES Zeldas (albeit in different branches of the timeline) who is the same Ganondorf as in Ocarina of Time.
This is the case in the books that Nintendo released, but not necessarily the case in the games. Nintendo said that the books were just what was believed to be true at the time, that their contents weren't final, and that readers were invited to have their own interpretations of the games.
The games confirm that The Wind Waker Ganondorf is the same guy as Ocarina of Time Ganondorf, but the others may or may not be separate Ganons.
>Does TOTK retcon Ganondorf’s origin from Ocarina of Time, or is it saying that the whole time every other post-Minish Cap game was going on was there a second Ganondorf sealed beneath the castle and them having the same name is a coincidence?
BotW and TotK seem to reference the events of OoT as having happened in the past and don't seem to be intentionally retconning anything that happened.
So basically there are three options:
1) TotK Ganondorf was sealed underground very early in the series underneath Hyrule Castle. However, Hyrule Castle was in a part of the kingdom that was hidden/lost to time, and a new Hyrule Castle was created at some point thereafter. And other Ganondorfs were born and attacked Hyrule throughout time. And when new Ganondorfs weren't attacking, the Calamity Ganon born from TotK Ganon would attack Hyrule from time to time. Also somehow the flood didn't destroy the forgotten Hyrule Castle that TotK Ganondorf was sealed underneath. And then many years later the forgotten Hyrule Castle was found and begun to be used again by the royal family until the events of BotW.
2) TotK Ganondorf was sealed underground very early in the series underneath Hyrule Castle. However, since TotK revealed that if Hyrule Castle is destroyed, TotK Ganondorf's seal would be broken, the destruction of Hyrule Castle in OoT, TP, and the end of TWW have now been retconned away somehow.
3) Rauru is the first king of TotK Hyrule, but not the first king ever in the Zelda universe. TotK's Hyrule calls the Great Plateau its birthplace despite the Great Plateau appearing in no other games (apart from BotW). TotK's royal family is said to have its origin also be the origin of Calamity Ganon. TotK's Hyrule Castle has never been destroyed. TotK's Zora's Domain was only established about 10,000 years ago in this Hyrule, around the time the Divine Beasts defeated Calamity Ganon for the first time, long after TotK Ganondorf was sealed. In other words, TotK's back story takes place well after the events of OoT, after something caused the old Hyrule and royal family to fall apart. (We've already seen Hyrule and the royal family fall apart in TWW's back story and SS's back story, so there's precedent for this.)
Option 3 is the simplest solution that fits all the data unless we're really picky about how to interpret "first king".
Are you talking about Ganondorf from the original _Hyrule Warriors_ or from _Age of Calamity_? I like the Game Theory idea of _Hyrule Warriors_ following _Twilight Princess_, so I'd say it's the same Ganondorf. (I don't care whether it's “officially” canon. Neither does Nintendo.)
As for Ganon in _Age of Calamity_, we know that Calamity Ganon was trying to grow himself a body, but he was interrupted. In _Breath of the Wild_, he had to make due with Guardian parts and Sheikah technology. But in _Age of Calamity_, he stole Astor's life force and combined it with his own, giving him a much more humanoid body.
I haven't played it but my headcanon is that hyrule Warriors Ganondorf is turned into calamity Ganon and calamity Ganon is Ganon from BOTW. It even says that he gave up his power of regeneration (the endless cycle of link, Zelda, and Ganondorf being reborn) to turn into his ultimate beast form that you fight right at the end of the game, so that Ganon is gone now. Dead-dead. He could be the twilight Princess Ganondorf because nothing is saying he couldn't be. It's never fully explained how Ganondorf turns into Ganon, I think ocarina is the only one to do it. Perhaps when calamity Ganon escaped, that was his transformation.
Because a Gerudo king is born every 100 years, you could potentially have an infinite amount of ganons and ganondorfs running around, like TOTK. That Ganondorf is a completely separate one from an ancient time, and skyward sword is the first in the timeline to start the cycle. This means that the zonai stuff was during or AFTER skyward sword, which doesn't make sense because you never see anything zonai apart from the ancient robots, but don't think about it too much. Daemon-king Ganondorf is awoken in the present, and is NOT the BOTW Ganondorf like a lot of people keep assuming. I haven't finished the game so I don't know if it mentions anything related to skyward sword, but my partner thinks that TOTK dorf is the dorf from skyward sword, possessed by 'Demise'. The daemon-king IS Demise, but reborn in a different Ganondorf body. Skyward sword set the theme that demise inhabits every Ganondorf born every 100 years which gives him his evil power, but it's the zonai stone that turns him into the daemon-king. It's a different Ganondorf from an ancient time, sealed beneath Hyrule castle... Again. Like every other Ganon.
The statement in English saying Calamity Ganon has given up on reincarnation is a well-known mistranslation. The original intent in Japanese is basically the opposite.
The "[Ganon]dorf from Skyward Sword?" There wasn't a Ganondorf in Skyward Sword...
Demise doesn't inhabit or possess every Ganondorf. Demise himself is, as far as we know, long gone: Link (Hero of the Sky) killed him, and his spiritual remains were drawn into the Master Sword where they would be trapped and decay into nothing. Each Ganondorf is simply an incarnation of Demise's hatred, part of a cycle put into motion by the latter's curse.
You're not entirely wrong. TotK Ganon's secret stone produced the malice that would eventually manifest as BotW Calamity Ganon. It's unknown whether TotK Ganon's consciousness was piloting Calamity Ganon or if Calamity Ganon had its own consciousness.
So they're kind of the same incarnations as BotW Ganon is born from TotK Ganon, but they might technically be separate things.
Just posted a response claiming this. Ganondorf is unaware of Calamity and Calamity was smart enough to plan and prep, to control the guardians, and to rebuild a resurrection for himself, and he can also turn boar Ganon; just like the original Ganondorf.
I'm kinda thinking of them as a modern adaptation or reinterpretation. They pretty much threw the timeline out the window again by linking the Imprisoning War with the first king of Hyrule.
What does Hyrule Warriors Ganondorf have to do with anything? That game is non-canon and years older than BotW. That game features an original Link, Zelda, and Ganondorf with no connection to any games before or since.
Ganondorf isn't in seen Breath of the Wild.
well botw calamity ganon is a manifestation of totk’s ganon’s evilness and stuff so you can count them as the same ganon..idk about hyrule warriors tho
I don't know, throw demise into the mix and it gets even more confusing. Demise is technically where Ganondorf gets his evil power, so demise is the gloom. Demise is inside Ganondorf, which is Ganon and the Daemon-king simultaneously.
At the end of Skyward Sword Demise says his hatred will plague Link and Zelda for eternity, so as I understand, all the different Ganondorfs are Demise's hatred incarnating at different points in time. So I think Ganondorf is part of Demise that basically keeps getting reincarnated.
That's actually a misconception. Demise and Ganondorf are kind of unrelated, but Skyward Sword was mistranslated outside of Japan, so this has confused a lot of people.
In the English version of SS Demise says that an incarnation of his hatred will forever reappear in Hyrule and cause trouble for its inhabitants. So a lot of people assumed that Ganondorf and/or Vaati and/or the other big bad demons from each of the games is an incarnation of Demise's hatred.
However, the Japanese version of the game actually has Demise saying that the demon tribe that he created is able to reincarnate, and they will forever reappear in Hyrule and cause trouble for its inhabitants.
So SS is actually intending to explain where all of the little demons come from, e.g., the Octoroks, the Keese, the Moblins. All of the smaller monsters we fight throughout the games. It's saying that they are the incarnation of Demise's hatred that keeps returning. They are the demons that he created and let loose in the world.
Ganondorf wasn't born a demon. He was born a man and used magic to transform himself into a demon. So he's not one of the demons that Demise created and therefore isn't part of Demise's metaphorical curse.
My question is... who could be the big bad for the NEXT LoZ game? Ganondorf still, but we're in another timeline? Or is it BotW 3 and there's a completely new enemy? The outcome of the final fight seemed pretty conclusive on Ganondorf's fate, and it seems like most of the comments agree he was the real big G... so is he gone forever in this timeline?
I feel it is canon, but in the sense that it happened in an alternate timeline. We have 3 of those already. Like the reason why BotW happened was because the little robot got destroyed by the guardian blast and didn't go through the time portal. AoC is what happened when it did make it through the time portal. It's not canon to BotW, but it is its own canon with its own timeline. I also learned not to think about it too much because then you confuse yourself and everyone else you talk to about it.
1) Hyrule Warriors isn't canon, so no need to worry about it at all. Age of Calamity also isn't canon, but since it is more based in a canon story, I'll expand on it in the next point.
2) TotK Ganondorf is a brand new Ganondorf who hasn't appeared in any of the other games yet. He stole Sonia's secret stone, which granted him immense dark power including the ability to manifest a substance called Malice. When Ganondorf was sealed underground, the Malice was still able to escape his body, and eventually that Malice manifested into the form of Calamity Ganon. In BotW Calamity Ganon created a cocoon to try to create a new body for itself, incorporating Sheikah tech into it, but Link interrupted that process, and together with Zelda they managed to destroy Calamity Ganon at the end of the game. But Ganondorf's dark energy continued to pour out of him, now in the form of gloom until it drew Link and Zelda to Ganondorf and the events of TotK happened. As for Age of Calamity, it's a hypothetical event where some of Calamity Ganon traveled back in time and fused itself with Sheikah tech and a sorcerer to create a new body for itself. But like I said, not canon, so you don't have to worry about that.
3) We know for sure that OoT Ganondorf and TWW Ganondorf are the same guy. We know for sure that FSA Ganondorf is a different guy than OoT/TWW Ganondorf and TotK Ganondorf (unless you want to insert an arbitrary split into the timeline before FSA, in which case FSA Ganondorf could theoretically be the same guy as TotK Ganondorf, but ultimately that doesn't really make a ton of sense). Everyone else is technically up in the air. The books that Nintendo published (but didn't write) speculate that OoT/TWW Ganondorf is also the same guy as LoZ Ganon, ALttP Ganon, Oracles Ganon, and TP Ganon, but the games have provided evidence that this may or may not be the case. Furthermore, ALBW Ganon has a new origin compared to all other existing Ganons, so he might be unrelated to previous Ganons as well.
Ok I will make it easy for you. BoTW and ToTK are not set on the timeline and are there own entities. The Zelda timeline has never been a stable thing and gets retconned every game.
HWs Dorf is either TP Dorf brought back from the dead or FSA Dorf unsealed. BotW Ganon is the lingering Malice of TotK Dorf, who was born after Hyrule had fallen and was refounded.
IMO Calamity Ganon is OG Ganondorf channeling through TOKT Ganondorf, mostly because of the Boar transformation as that power can only be attributed to Triforce of power Ganondorf - which TOKT Ganondorf is blissfully unaware of. TOKT Ganondorf does not even seem to know about the Calamity, yet this Calamity tries to "resurrect" into a new built body. Which is kinda funny as in "Wait, I did what for how many years?!".
It could have been more impactful if he did though, as it would have made Link's personal strife with him more meaningful. But that's my headcanon as to why I think Calamity is the original one.
AoC is non canon but if you were to speculate - same as calamity but managed to resurrect after stealing a body. We know from japanese folklore that spirits and deities grow more powerful with worship and cults to them - so Astor's fanaticism, dark magic and actions helped to channel him back to life without a mechanical construct.
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Hyrule Warriors Ganon(dorf) is pretty much just BotW Ganon but if it managed to fully awaken without getting disturbed by Zelda. BotW Ganon is Ganondorfs literal anger taking form (and maybe a bit of his magic, but mostly his anger.)
Why does Zelda in BoTW state that Ganon gave up his ability to reincarnate to turn into his final form? Is it a bad translation or am I misremembering?
Mistranslation
I don't think so, he didn't reincarnated, he was Resurrected
It’s a mistranslation because the English version says he has given up on his goal to reincarnate to become dark beast Ganon and the Japanese said that dark beast Ganon is born out of his refusal to give up on reincarnation
Wow so the English is literally the opposite of what it's supposed to be?
Jesus the Japanese version makes that sound much more metal.
Why is the botw and totk localization such a clusterfuck, they really didn't give the games what they deserved.
Don't forget the sidequest with a fully grown adult man and the "actually adult" zora child falling in love
I hate that too, but I think that was Japan being weird and not a problem *created* by the localization.
Nope, the entire side quest has almost no romantic themes in the original Japanese text. Any mention of love came directly from Finley, who is ACTUALLY a child in this localization
It is a bad translation, but it's also just a common misunderstanding. Calamity Ganon "gave up on reincarnation" because Link got in the way. Calamity Ganon had built a cocoon to create a new body for itself. Link intervened before this new body was completely finished. So Calamity Ganon gave up on creating a new body for itself and tried to kill Link and Zelda with just its current form. It had nothing to do with literal death and reincarnation. It was just about the metaphorical reincarnation of a formless being giving itself a new body (and then giving up on that new body).
Are you talking regular Hyrule Warriors or Age of Calamity?
Age of calamity, that’s why it’s humanoid and not spider like
Spider like? I really need to play Hyrule Warriors sometime.
It’s spider like in the final battle of Botw, the first stage
Oh, I thought they were referring to something in Hyrule Warriors, but yeah I forgot about that part of the fight.
I thought it was because it had Astor to use as a base plus some extra future malice in AOC, while the spider from BOTW was thrown together in a rush when Link woke up.
Hyrule Warriors is actually easy! Just set the game after FSA and say it's an older version of that game's Ganondorf.
You don’t even have to do that cause it was confirmed not canon
I just like to think that none of the games are in each others’ canon except for the direct sequels. It’s really the only way it makes any sense.
This does make the most sense. I think of it as being like the Greek mythos. Yes, they use the same characters, but none of it actually makes sense in a linear canon since the stories were mostly designed as plays to teach morals to people. The stories are disjointed, some might reference a past story, but ultimately they aren't some perfect scripture. I think the Zelda Timeline only exists because fans demanded it.
Were you describing Greek mythos or the zelda games ?
If you can't tell, then my point was made lol
Bingo.
Prior to BOTW Nintendo was very clear as to where each of the games took place in the timeline.
Anything prior to BotW was shoehorned into a timeline as a cope. Like the original comment said, only direct sequels make sense, and maybe a couple other instances, but clearly not all were designed to fit together.
Wind waker is by far the game that directly references a previous game the most and it is not a direct sequel at all.
Doesn't Twilight Princess also make references to OoT?
Yeah they want to "cope" with the fact they can't grasp the storyline but it is factually there lol.
That's not entirely true, there's a reason why they called it A Link to the Past. The timeline stuff started to get more confusing with TP/WW but they definitely intended them to be sequels to OoT
A Link to the Past was pure USA marketing. The game is called Triforce of the Gods. LTTP was made up later because they didnt want religious references in Nintendo games at the time.
Nah it’s all pretty obvious. There’s tons of videos on YouTube explaining the timelines and what order everything takes place. Once it’s laid out in front of you and explained, it’s not that confusing. A lot of people really struggle with it for some reason.
And none of it made much sense
Yeah like how you literally see all the OOT sages in Wind Waker that definitely did not make sense.
The timeline was always a mess. References and sequels don’t change that. Some Zelda games take place after other Zelda games but to shoehorn all Zelda games into a timeline has never worked without issues.
Yeah but prior to BOTW Nintendo had always been explicit as to what games were sequels or prequels to other games. Zelda 2 was explicitly a sequel to Zelda 1, ALTTP was a prequel to Zelda 1, OOT a prequel to ALTTP, Wind Waker a sequel to OOT, TP a sequel to OOT and SS a prequel to OOT.
OOT is after minish cap which is after Zelda 2
There is a pretty solid chance, given the overall lack of major universe destroying paradoxes, that every time someone time travels, a new, parallel timeline is created. New Link, new Zelda, new everything starting at the moment something in time was changed and reflecting that new reality in the present when a new alternate timeline is created. These possibilities are infinite. Some of the events of some of the games are on the same timeline, like Zelda 1 and 2, etc. The "Legend" is basically a Mandella effect from the creation (and occasional intermingling) of these parallel worlds. That, plus tens of thousands of years of cataclysms erasing history, and even the timeline of each parallel world gets fuzzy. If you can square with that, it makes sense. If not, youre going to chase your tail trying to figure it out. If you really want to save the frustration, just imagine every game as a different retelling of the same legend.
Yeah I do the same. I feel like it's intended to be different universes
Yeah it's another timeline cus timetravel egg
Botw’s Ganon is TotK’s Ganondorfs power leaking from under hyrule castle. It’s actually scary to think that the Ganon you killed in the first game was only a fraction of the power of Ganondorf….
Works as a great contrast to just how powerful his hate is, Ganondorf's hatred for this world was so powerful that even in imprisonment, his power leaks and causes a fucking apocalypse.
His raw hatred alone allowed him to take over an army of robots? Are we sure he’s not the true triforce of wisdom? I wish my uncontrolled hatred allows me to control an army of robots.
It's not just normal hatred it's ~magic~ hatred
Imagine him being an emo, the whole world would go💀💀💀💀💀💀💀
I mean technically it was the Demon King. Ganondorf was not even close to being that powerful before (spoiler ahead) >!killing Sonia and stealing her secret stone!<.
Does lore say any where the heck ganondorfs problem is and why he hates everything and everyone so much?
Skyward Sword explains that Ganondorf is the reincarnated being following Demise, a villain in Skyward sword who hated the gods and wished to destroy the world and form it as his own. So Ganondorf's intent was ultimately Demise's intent, Ganondorf is only an incarnation of him.
So for 10k years, ganon's power has been periodically leaking from the sealed ganondorf and causing havoc across hyrul, and nobody ever thought to check the damn basement?
In the beginning of totk they say that doing so was forbidden.
I forgot where I read it but I think it was a plaque under the castle grounds somewhere. It said the castle was built to keep people away so the seal wouldn't be broken. Seemed to me they knew how fragile it was and the castle was meant to quite literally serve as a buffer. Then since Zelda wasn't handed knowledge by her dumb ass father she was kept in the dark an inevitably did the exact thing the Royal family was supposed to prevent.
The plaque is at the bottom of the spiral staircase leading to the emergency exit tunnel.
That was it! Thank you!
"If you are reading this, you have already fucked up and are running for your life"
I think most of the knowledge about what exactly is below castle was lost. And probably even entrance was hidden.
They went in to investigate yeah, but they went in knowing nothing instead of being aware of the situation ahead of time. To me it seems Ganon used the situation to switch strategy once the institutional knowledge of his seal was destroyed. He was outpouring malice and did so every 10,000 years but this time he switched strategy. Not only that but he did so only a few years after his defeat right when doing so would be the most advantageous to him. That's not very believable as a coincidence to me.
I mean didn’t they go down there because gloom had been leaking out in the kingdom already? It wasn’t like they just went down for fun she was investigating the source.
I guess King Rhoam conveniently forgot he can manifest his spirit and tell her.
Pretty sure his and the champions spirits went to the afterlife (or whatever hyrule's equivalent is) at the end of botw.
"Maybe I should give the daughter whose last memories of me were when I was being a total hardass some closure and a heads up before I go. "...Nah, Rhoam out!"
yall are assuming a hell of alot you assume Rhoam knows yall assume the knowledge is frequent and known
I mean he quite literally says its passed down knowledge in the Royal Family. So assuming he knows makes perfect sense.
actiually it makes no sense Information passed down gets diluted and to the point where it no longer exsists as it was
Thats a lot of assumption on a little given information.
longer
We walked through the door and the seal broke. Wasn't exactly tourist friendly
Explains why he was so easy to kill. Very underwhelming boss fight.
The TOTK end boss fight is much better than the BOTW one.
Much harder too
I almost died. Can you believe that you can almost die? Sounds impossible to Botw players.
I only had 4 hearts due to gloom, no gloom healing items or ingredients, and only a couple hearty foods... It felt like a goddamn souls boss. 10/10 would recommend
fool that I was I went down there with no gloom healing items and just got bodied time after time. I had to load a save from before I triggered the boss fight and come back with a ton of sunny meat to manage it. But that was with a pretty barebones health/weapon pool. It would probably be a cakewalk now that I'm at 100 hours
So that body we found in the beginning of the game is Ganondorf? Which is way stronger? Sorry im new to the game and i dont know these characters. Ganon and Ganondorf confuses me.
Ganondorf is always used to refer to the actual man himself, the name Ganon refers to the different monstrous forms he's taken over the series. They're both the same character. During BotW Ganondorf is sealed under the castle all that time, but his hatred and power manifested into Calamity Ganon. Defeating the calamity was only a temporary fix, but now his actual body has been freed in TotK, and of course that means he is able to use his full strength.
Gotcha ok!! I get it! Damn silly Zelda created a mess then vanished.
Dunno, seemed like quite a bit of his power seeing as his Totk form wasn't much harder to kill.
The Calamity Ganon in both Botw and Age of Calamity are creations made of gloom(malice) that Totk Ganondorf releases when sealed. We don't know if they followed his will or if they just wanted to destroy Hyrule because they wanted to.
If you go to Impa in Kakariko after finishing some main quests, she actually talks to you about the Calamity and confirms that Calamity Ganon is a manifestation of the Demon King's hatred. So I assume that Ganondorf was so pissed about being locked up for 10's of thousands of years that Calamity Ganon and Malice formed and therefore are probably going of pure hatred, I don't think they have much of a mind to begin with.
longer than 10s of thousands of years
To be fair, 10’s of thousands could be anywhere between 10,000 and 100,000 really We don’t exactly know how long ago it was but I’d wager it’s not longer than 100,000
210,000 years would still be 21 10,000s of years. Could be ten million, still expressed as 10ks.
That is also fair
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no. unless they ret connect the history of botw. 10 000 yesrs ago was the first successful fend off of calamity ganon with the shiekah tech/ guardians.
I kept looking for her in Kakariko and could never find her after she said she was heading back. And I've done all main quests lol
If you’ve done every main quest except for destroy Ganondorf and find Princess Zelda (which were the ones I’ve not done cause you literally can’t) and you’ve talked to Impa and she’s said that she’ll go back to Kakariko, she should be in Paya’s room in the chief’s house upstairs.
malice isnt gloom
HW: AoC Ganon is not canon BotW Calamity Ganon is the manifestation of Ganondorf's Malice TotK Ganondorf is the origin of the Malice and Gloom that plagues the world. He is a corpse that resides under Hyrule Castle. So Ganondorf the corpse is the origin of the power that is Calamity Ganon. Calamity Canon isn't a character as much as it is just power given form
Ok this makes so much sense. New to this game and i was so confused with these names.
HW Ganondorf: Non-canon BOTW Ganon: A construct of Ganondorf’s malice TOTK Ganondorf: An ancient Gerudo king turned demon
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Where does it state that Ganon is a demon that inhabits Ganondorf??? Impa actually states in TotK that Calamity Ganon is a manifestation of the demon king's (Ganondorf's) hatred while he's been sealed under Hyrule Castle.
The other Zelda games make this distinction. Ganon is his demon form. Ganondorf is his human form.
No, Ganondorf is the doctor. You’re thinking of Ganondorf’s monster
yeah, Ganon is his Demon formbut the commenter above was saying that Ganon is a demon inhabiting Ganondorf There's a difference between Ganon being a demon inhabiting Ganondorf and Ganon being Ganondorf's Demon form (The first implying they're two separate entities, and the second implying they are the same person taking on different forms)
OP saying Ganon inhabits Ganondorf isn't at all correct. Demise is the demon that inhabits Ganondorf and Ganon is their hybrid. Zelda is Demise's counter and they are locked in constant reincarnation since Demise cursed Zelda in Skyward Sword. Link helped once and got dragged into the reincarnation cycle along with Impa, Beedle, and possibly Tingle.
Demise doesn't inhabit Ganondorf Ganondorf is just a reincarnation of Demise's Hatred Demise's curse is that an incarnation of his hatred will follow the Hero's Spirit (Link) and those with the blood of the Goddess (Zelda)
These timelines; so confusing, right? I mean which is it, McAvoy or Stewart?
Demise and Ganondorf are completely different beings until Demise cursed Ganondorf, imparting a portion of his soul. Ganondorf was just one of the few male Gerudo born and his body was prime for Demise to use in taking over Hyrule and finally obtaining the missing pieces of triforce and eliminating the goddess.
Where is this said? Demise says: "*Though this is not the end. My hate... never perishes. It is born anew in a cycle with no end! I will rise again! Those like you... Those who share the blood of the goddess and the spirit of the hero... They are eternally bound to this curse. An incarnation of my hatred shall ever follow your kind, dooming them to wander a blood-soaked sea of darkness for all time!*" Demise then gets sealed away in the Master Sword, there's nothing saying that a portion of his soul is in Ganondorf. Ganondorf is just an incarnation of Demise's hatred.
This is true, although anytime “Ganon” is featured it is a pig like beast and “Ganondorf” is a Gerudo male born once every 100 years. Now that we have both Ganon and Ganondorf appear in a canonical setting, it stands to reason that Ganon is a metaphysical incarnation of Demise’s power. Primal, evil, chaotic. Ganondorf, on the other hand, is often depicted as a human with tendencies of malice that drive him to obtain power. He seems to “unlock” his full potential passed to him by Demise. I find it a poetic interpretation to view Link, Zelda, and Ganondorf as a trio of cursed individuals doomed to repeat a destiny they have no control over until the end of time. And endless battle between light and dark. Ganondorf may be an incarnation of evil but he may not be literally the thinking mind of Demise until he is possessed by that force.
Ganon really has nothing to do with Demise at all. Ganondorf has always been an instrument of Demise's curse, but that alone didn't make Ganon. Ocarina of Time makes it pretty clear that "Ganon" is a result of the Triforce of Power or some other magical element that brings what's inside Ganondorf's heart to the surface. He's a boarish pig, and Ganon is his outsides finally matching his insides. Usually it's the Triforce of Power that forces Gaondorf's true colors to the surface, but it's been other things before as well, like the Trident, or just existing in places like The Dark World. These things have been shown to apply to Link as well, but less frequently, like how the Hero of Twilight was turned into a Wolf by his triforce piece in TP, or how The Hero of Legend became a bunny when he first entered the Dark World in ALTTP.
You're right up until the very end. The other people who appear are entirely coincidental. The Sheikah people commonly use the name Impa, Beedle is only in a few games, and same with Tingle. If they were in the cycle they'd be in every game. It's literally just "for whatever reason there have been multiple instances in history of a man named Beedle becoming a travelling Beetle-based merchant".
Beedle's in more than a few games.
Total of 5 Beedles have existed (7 games, but two games are the same Beedles). I guess 5 Beedles is pushing "a few" but the main point is that he's clearly not tied to the cycle of rebirth or anything like that (otherwise he'd be in *every* game)
Tbf, I've not played too many zelda games. Just seemed like he was in more.. but when I'm wrong, I'm wrong!
Something's up with Beedle. He may not be there every time, but he's been there since the beginning, and he'll be there at the end.
Isn’t Epona’s soul bound up in the cycle as well? Connected to Link’s or something? Or am I just remembering canon weirdly?
Epona is in like three games lol
Seven by my count: OoT, MM, FSA, TMC, TP, BotW, TotK. Link is also shown riding a horse that looks like Epona in the Oracles, though it isn’t named. This is not counting Hyrule Warriors.
Epona in TOTK and BOTW isn't a canon thing though, it can only be obtained through amiibo
You've got a point in that. Cool concept thinking of Ganon being the demon and Ganondorf just being a man possessed by it, though.
that is a neat idea, I think I saw a comic with a similar premise about a good Ganondorf who was possessed to do evil things
Growing up Gerudo
Except in Wind Waker where the Gerudo man is Ganon
Isn’t Ganondorf a Gerudo man?
WW Ganondorf is literally the same Ganondorf as OoT. Explicitly stated.
How old does that make that ganondorf??
He’s been giving his age as ‘probably thirty-four’ for years
Yeah and he’s referred to as Ganon, thus breaking the Ganon vs Ganondorf pattern
I always find it interesting how people post speculation as clear facts.
Ganondorf and Ganon are the same thing, Ganondorf becomes Ganon when he fully embraces the triforce of power and his powers
Ganondorf and Ganon are different, Ganondorf is the actual man while Ganon is the beast form
Demise is the demon who planted a curse on Ganondorf to resurrect while also granting him power. Ganon is not a separate entity. Ganon is a phase or form in which Ganondorf taps into Demise' energy.
My bad meant beast form, I fixed it
The blight/beast/phantom Ganons from botw and totk aren't actually triforce powered. They're based on his own existing magic and on the secret stone.
Yes, I mean when he himself turns into Ganon it’s usually because of the triforce. The blights, phantoms, puppets, and calamities are not Ganondorf himself
Interesting thin with calamity Ganon and the reincarnation thing, in English zelda states Ganon has given up on it and assumed the pure enraged form of dark beast, but in Japanese she stated that Ganon is *obsesed* with reincarnation, and assumed the form of dark beast
Your spoiler tags are broken.
Your spoilers aren't working.
So what youre saying is the next game has the demon ganon himself as the villain?
Remove the spaces from the beginning/end of your spoilers. >!Working spoiler.!< >! Broken spoiler. !<
hyrule warriors is *not* and never will be canon IMO.
Doesn’t even need to be an opinion. It’s a fact.
Some folks are incredibly passionate about disputing that. Back in April I stated that HW isn't canon and a certain user got so upset that they started a whole new topic just to "prove" that it was canon, but most folks downvoted them to oblivion lol
See, it makes sense to be canon and gives credence to the "unified timeline" theory but many people don't like that theory. Oh well
Hyrule warriors isnt canom
Just read all the comments and im even more confused now.
Same, I don't think anyone else can decide which Ganon[dorf] is which.
Hyrule warriors isn’t canon Botw ganon is Totk ganondorf’s hatred being cast into the world, not being a physical threat but a corrupting one Totk ganondorf is the real deal, having escaped containment beneath the castle
i mean techincally its Canon but not mainline canon more like seperate line canon
Yah, putting it easier for OP since they seemed a bid overwhelmed/confused anyways
It's basically its own thing. It is canon to BOTW, as in it connects to BOTW to tell its story (instead of just doing whatever it wants, like the first HW), but it's not part of the mainline games and their timelines. HW has its own timeline, while TOTK is the canonical sequel to BOTW.
Hyrule warriors- different thing TOTK Ganondorf the demon king who got sealed BOTW Calamity Ganon who was born out of Ganondorfs power leaking trough the castle. Call it his anger, despair whatever you want but that power which was leaking out of him is what formed Calamity Ganon. To put it simple Calamity Ganon is just a fraction of Ganondorfs power who couldn't be fully sealed
Easy Hyrule warriors isn't cannon, and Ganon isn't physical in botw. He influences the world with malice by corrupting the Sheika tech.
BOTW Ganon is his malice and attempt to break free, then realizing he couldn't so he played dead and let his puppet appear to die TOTK Ganondorf, he got more time to break his imprisonment and his malice / calamity became more concentrated. (Interesting note) >!In the Spirit Temple the construct that he has stolen from Mineru looks like one of the blights and seems to have both Gloom and Malice inside it and both dissipate when you beat the construct (they are distinctly two different colors)!<
So you're implying that he tried to control that construct during the calamity but couldn't do it completely? But now with gloom he can. Or he could control it but it's more powerful with gloom.
I surmise it was stuck there the whole time, you can see it die here, and see the difference [I'm a spoiler](https://youtu.be/uRZhN2F07ow?t=782)
Oh yeah, also this might not be related but when >!dragon ganon dies he also shoots malice instead of gloom!< [Spoiler ](https://youtu.be/wMm8UEF3gR4)
The way I understand it, Calamity Ganon is the pure incarnation of Demise’s curse. He shows up 10,000 years prior to the events of BotW, and again 100 years prior. Ganondorf is a humanoid manifestation of that curse that showed up at the founding of the Kingdom of Hyrule, untold years before TotK, but presumably thousands of years before the original Shiekah Tech helped Link and Zelda to seal away calamity Ganon (I would bet on many 10s of thousands of years before TotK, because knowledge of the Zonai in BotW is even harder to come by than the ancient Sheikah tech). All this to say that Demise’s curse can manifest itself in several forms and needn’t necessarily be limited to one. Ganondorf slumbered beneath Hyrule castle during both of the times Calamity Ganon revealed itself, and who knows how long before that.
So Demise's curse isn't actually a literal magic curse. It's more of a threat/promise than an actual curse. It was mistranslated pretty badly outside of Japan, but the Japanese version makes it clear that Demise isn't casting a curse to make an incarnation of his hatred keep appearing; he's actually informing Link and Zelda that he has made it so that all of the demons he has created are able to reincarnate, so they will keep appearing time and again in Hyrule forever. This is the explanation for why Octoroks, Keese, Moblins, etc. keep appearing in Hyrule. Ganondorf wasn't born a demon. He was a man who used magic to transform himself into a demon. Because he's not naturally a demon, that means he wasn't part of the demon tribe that Demise created with the ability to reincarnate. Ganondorf is simply able to reincarnate because all natives of the Light World are naturally able to reincarnate. Ganondorf is able to elevate himself to the level of Demon King and take control of the demon tribe for himself, but that's as much as he is related to Demise. They don't really have that much of a connection.
Hyrule warriors is not canon. Calamity ganon is a spectral construct formed from ganondorfs magic/hatred that seeps out of him. There, fixed.
HW/BoTW is just a manifestation of ToTK sealed Ganondorf's anger I believe, it would make sense as BoTW's Ganon and the gloom from ToTK look awfully similar
Ganondorf was sealed during the Imprisoning War >10,000 years ago. His malice slowly leaked out and manifested in the form of the Calamity Ganon, which attacked Hyrule countless times throughout its history. The seal binding Ganondorf slowly decayed during that time, and finally broke at the beginning of Tears of the Kingdom. That’s basically it.
As ever though, this game retcons or contradicts previously established lore. I haven't finished the game yet but so far, this Ganondorf was sealed away by Hyrule's first king, even though according to previous canon, the Imprisoning War happened long after Ocarina of Time, in which the kingdom of Hyrule has already been established for presumably quite some time. So the timeline is in disarray again. They really need to just admit at this point that the timeline is improvised bs or that BotW is a completely alternate universe rather than timeline.
I’ve honestly always been open to there being more than one mortal incarnation of Ganon. The entire mcguffin of a male Gerudo being born once a century, destined to become the Gerudo King; has always seemed like justification enough for the concept. So if a new encyclopedia or Aonuma himself stats that this is the case; I wouldn’t even consider it a retcon. The groundwork for such an explanation already exists.
It's honestly not difficult to fix. We know that BotW/TotK Hyrule is different from OoT Hyrule. It has the Great Plateau as its birthplace. Its Zora's Domain was only founded 10,000 years before BotW, around the time the Divine Beasts first defeated Calamity Ganon. Since it's not the same Hyrule, Rauru can easily be the first king of BotW/TotK Hyrule, and the game can take place well after Ocarina of Time. We know that there have been previous disasters in the kingdom in which Hyrule and the royal family have ceased to be (see TWW's back story and SS's back story), so something like that having happened before TotK's back story, and the Hylians not remembering old Hyrule/the old royal family allows Rauru to be the first king of this new Hyrule without any issue. And two different wars both being called the Imprisoning War despite their events being wildly different and happening at very different times is another very minor issue in the grand scheme of things.
The real canon question: Ganondorf in Wind Waker is supposed to be the same guy as in Twilight Princess, who is supposed to be the same guy as Ganon in Link to the Past and the Original NES Zeldas (albeit in different branches of the timeline) who is the same Ganondorf as in Ocarina of Time. Does TOTK retcon Ganondorf’s origin from Ocarina of Time, or is it saying that the whole time every other post-Minish Cap game was going on was there a second Ganondorf sealed beneath the castle and them having the same name is a coincidence?
I think the Switch games are on their own timeline. I've never given the concept much weight honestly, trying to fit such a cyclical story into a linear history barely worked in Castlevania, and they genuinely tried.
> The real canon question: Ganondorf in Wind Waker is supposed to be the same guy as in Twilight Princess, who is supposed to be the same guy as Ganon in Link to the Past and the Original NES Zeldas (albeit in different branches of the timeline) who is the same Ganondorf as in Ocarina of Time. This is the case in the books that Nintendo released, but not necessarily the case in the games. Nintendo said that the books were just what was believed to be true at the time, that their contents weren't final, and that readers were invited to have their own interpretations of the games. The games confirm that The Wind Waker Ganondorf is the same guy as Ocarina of Time Ganondorf, but the others may or may not be separate Ganons. >Does TOTK retcon Ganondorf’s origin from Ocarina of Time, or is it saying that the whole time every other post-Minish Cap game was going on was there a second Ganondorf sealed beneath the castle and them having the same name is a coincidence? BotW and TotK seem to reference the events of OoT as having happened in the past and don't seem to be intentionally retconning anything that happened. So basically there are three options: 1) TotK Ganondorf was sealed underground very early in the series underneath Hyrule Castle. However, Hyrule Castle was in a part of the kingdom that was hidden/lost to time, and a new Hyrule Castle was created at some point thereafter. And other Ganondorfs were born and attacked Hyrule throughout time. And when new Ganondorfs weren't attacking, the Calamity Ganon born from TotK Ganon would attack Hyrule from time to time. Also somehow the flood didn't destroy the forgotten Hyrule Castle that TotK Ganondorf was sealed underneath. And then many years later the forgotten Hyrule Castle was found and begun to be used again by the royal family until the events of BotW. 2) TotK Ganondorf was sealed underground very early in the series underneath Hyrule Castle. However, since TotK revealed that if Hyrule Castle is destroyed, TotK Ganondorf's seal would be broken, the destruction of Hyrule Castle in OoT, TP, and the end of TWW have now been retconned away somehow. 3) Rauru is the first king of TotK Hyrule, but not the first king ever in the Zelda universe. TotK's Hyrule calls the Great Plateau its birthplace despite the Great Plateau appearing in no other games (apart from BotW). TotK's royal family is said to have its origin also be the origin of Calamity Ganon. TotK's Hyrule Castle has never been destroyed. TotK's Zora's Domain was only established about 10,000 years ago in this Hyrule, around the time the Divine Beasts defeated Calamity Ganon for the first time, long after TotK Ganondorf was sealed. In other words, TotK's back story takes place well after the events of OoT, after something caused the old Hyrule and royal family to fall apart. (We've already seen Hyrule and the royal family fall apart in TWW's back story and SS's back story, so there's precedent for this.) Option 3 is the simplest solution that fits all the data unless we're really picky about how to interpret "first king".
Are you talking about Ganondorf from the original _Hyrule Warriors_ or from _Age of Calamity_? I like the Game Theory idea of _Hyrule Warriors_ following _Twilight Princess_, so I'd say it's the same Ganondorf. (I don't care whether it's “officially” canon. Neither does Nintendo.) As for Ganon in _Age of Calamity_, we know that Calamity Ganon was trying to grow himself a body, but he was interrupted. In _Breath of the Wild_, he had to make due with Guardian parts and Sheikah technology. But in _Age of Calamity_, he stole Astor's life force and combined it with his own, giving him a much more humanoid body.
I haven't played it but my headcanon is that hyrule Warriors Ganondorf is turned into calamity Ganon and calamity Ganon is Ganon from BOTW. It even says that he gave up his power of regeneration (the endless cycle of link, Zelda, and Ganondorf being reborn) to turn into his ultimate beast form that you fight right at the end of the game, so that Ganon is gone now. Dead-dead. He could be the twilight Princess Ganondorf because nothing is saying he couldn't be. It's never fully explained how Ganondorf turns into Ganon, I think ocarina is the only one to do it. Perhaps when calamity Ganon escaped, that was his transformation. Because a Gerudo king is born every 100 years, you could potentially have an infinite amount of ganons and ganondorfs running around, like TOTK. That Ganondorf is a completely separate one from an ancient time, and skyward sword is the first in the timeline to start the cycle. This means that the zonai stuff was during or AFTER skyward sword, which doesn't make sense because you never see anything zonai apart from the ancient robots, but don't think about it too much. Daemon-king Ganondorf is awoken in the present, and is NOT the BOTW Ganondorf like a lot of people keep assuming. I haven't finished the game so I don't know if it mentions anything related to skyward sword, but my partner thinks that TOTK dorf is the dorf from skyward sword, possessed by 'Demise'. The daemon-king IS Demise, but reborn in a different Ganondorf body. Skyward sword set the theme that demise inhabits every Ganondorf born every 100 years which gives him his evil power, but it's the zonai stone that turns him into the daemon-king. It's a different Ganondorf from an ancient time, sealed beneath Hyrule castle... Again. Like every other Ganon.
The statement in English saying Calamity Ganon has given up on reincarnation is a well-known mistranslation. The original intent in Japanese is basically the opposite. The "[Ganon]dorf from Skyward Sword?" There wasn't a Ganondorf in Skyward Sword... Demise doesn't inhabit or possess every Ganondorf. Demise himself is, as far as we know, long gone: Link (Hero of the Sky) killed him, and his spiritual remains were drawn into the Master Sword where they would be trapped and decay into nothing. Each Ganondorf is simply an incarnation of Demise's hatred, part of a cycle put into motion by the latter's curse.
Am I the only one who thought totk Ganon and botw Ganon were just different incarnations entirely?
You're not entirely wrong. TotK Ganon's secret stone produced the malice that would eventually manifest as BotW Calamity Ganon. It's unknown whether TotK Ganon's consciousness was piloting Calamity Ganon or if Calamity Ganon had its own consciousness. So they're kind of the same incarnations as BotW Ganon is born from TotK Ganon, but they might technically be separate things.
Just posted a response claiming this. Ganondorf is unaware of Calamity and Calamity was smart enough to plan and prep, to control the guardians, and to rebuild a resurrection for himself, and he can also turn boar Ganon; just like the original Ganondorf.
Yeah i just consider the wild era games to be non canon at this point
I'm kinda thinking of them as a modern adaptation or reinterpretation. They pretty much threw the timeline out the window again by linking the Imprisoning War with the first king of Hyrule.
What does Hyrule Warriors Ganondorf have to do with anything? That game is non-canon and years older than BotW. That game features an original Link, Zelda, and Ganondorf with no connection to any games before or since. Ganondorf isn't in seen Breath of the Wild.
Don’t question Ganon(dorf)! He’s the villain we expect to see and will work his way into every Zelda game he can because he’s awesome
Wild-era doesn't use the Triforce at all. Put both of them in their own separate parallel Hyrule and everything sits fine.
Credit to me, btw. Original post.
well botw calamity ganon is a manifestation of totk’s ganon’s evilness and stuff so you can count them as the same ganon..idk about hyrule warriors tho
Doesn't Skyward Sword answer this? Also, heard HW isn't canon.
I don't know, throw demise into the mix and it gets even more confusing. Demise is technically where Ganondorf gets his evil power, so demise is the gloom. Demise is inside Ganondorf, which is Ganon and the Daemon-king simultaneously.
That's why I try not to think of the timeline, but good luck!
At the end of Skyward Sword Demise says his hatred will plague Link and Zelda for eternity, so as I understand, all the different Ganondorfs are Demise's hatred incarnating at different points in time. So I think Ganondorf is part of Demise that basically keeps getting reincarnated.
That's actually a misconception. Demise and Ganondorf are kind of unrelated, but Skyward Sword was mistranslated outside of Japan, so this has confused a lot of people. In the English version of SS Demise says that an incarnation of his hatred will forever reappear in Hyrule and cause trouble for its inhabitants. So a lot of people assumed that Ganondorf and/or Vaati and/or the other big bad demons from each of the games is an incarnation of Demise's hatred. However, the Japanese version of the game actually has Demise saying that the demon tribe that he created is able to reincarnate, and they will forever reappear in Hyrule and cause trouble for its inhabitants. So SS is actually intending to explain where all of the little demons come from, e.g., the Octoroks, the Keese, the Moblins. All of the smaller monsters we fight throughout the games. It's saying that they are the incarnation of Demise's hatred that keeps returning. They are the demons that he created and let loose in the world. Ganondorf wasn't born a demon. He was born a man and used magic to transform himself into a demon. So he's not one of the demons that Demise created and therefore isn't part of Demise's metaphorical curse.
Doesn't Skyward Sword answer this? Also, heard HW isn't canon.
HW AoC is canon though, Aouma kinda confirmed this? When Terrako went back in time, created a new timeline - simple as that.
It's not canon.
Spider-Man wasn’t that thicc before… right?
My question is... who could be the big bad for the NEXT LoZ game? Ganondorf still, but we're in another timeline? Or is it BotW 3 and there's a completely new enemy? The outcome of the final fight seemed pretty conclusive on Ganondorf's fate, and it seems like most of the comments agree he was the real big G... so is he gone forever in this timeline?
Warriors ain't canon, and Ganondorf created Calamity Ganon
I feel it is canon, but in the sense that it happened in an alternate timeline. We have 3 of those already. Like the reason why BotW happened was because the little robot got destroyed by the guardian blast and didn't go through the time portal. AoC is what happened when it did make it through the time portal. It's not canon to BotW, but it is its own canon with its own timeline. I also learned not to think about it too much because then you confuse yourself and everyone else you talk to about it.
As far as the official timeline is concerned, Hyrule Warriors doesn't exist.
Not on the timeline, but in my heart it exists.
You missed one. Four Swords mentions another Ganondorf. With TotK, we have 3 canonical Ganondorfs
The timeline is so fcked rn it's not even funny
1) Hyrule Warriors isn't canon, so no need to worry about it at all. Age of Calamity also isn't canon, but since it is more based in a canon story, I'll expand on it in the next point. 2) TotK Ganondorf is a brand new Ganondorf who hasn't appeared in any of the other games yet. He stole Sonia's secret stone, which granted him immense dark power including the ability to manifest a substance called Malice. When Ganondorf was sealed underground, the Malice was still able to escape his body, and eventually that Malice manifested into the form of Calamity Ganon. In BotW Calamity Ganon created a cocoon to try to create a new body for itself, incorporating Sheikah tech into it, but Link interrupted that process, and together with Zelda they managed to destroy Calamity Ganon at the end of the game. But Ganondorf's dark energy continued to pour out of him, now in the form of gloom until it drew Link and Zelda to Ganondorf and the events of TotK happened. As for Age of Calamity, it's a hypothetical event where some of Calamity Ganon traveled back in time and fused itself with Sheikah tech and a sorcerer to create a new body for itself. But like I said, not canon, so you don't have to worry about that. 3) We know for sure that OoT Ganondorf and TWW Ganondorf are the same guy. We know for sure that FSA Ganondorf is a different guy than OoT/TWW Ganondorf and TotK Ganondorf (unless you want to insert an arbitrary split into the timeline before FSA, in which case FSA Ganondorf could theoretically be the same guy as TotK Ganondorf, but ultimately that doesn't really make a ton of sense). Everyone else is technically up in the air. The books that Nintendo published (but didn't write) speculate that OoT/TWW Ganondorf is also the same guy as LoZ Ganon, ALttP Ganon, Oracles Ganon, and TP Ganon, but the games have provided evidence that this may or may not be the case. Furthermore, ALBW Ganon has a new origin compared to all other existing Ganons, so he might be unrelated to previous Ganons as well.
The devil comes in many forms
Ok I will make it easy for you. BoTW and ToTK are not set on the timeline and are there own entities. The Zelda timeline has never been a stable thing and gets retconned every game.
TOTK Ganondorf is the first Ganondorf in Zelda history. BOTW and Age of Calamity Ganon is the same Ganon from Ocarina of time, Twilight princess, etc.
HWs Dorf is either TP Dorf brought back from the dead or FSA Dorf unsealed. BotW Ganon is the lingering Malice of TotK Dorf, who was born after Hyrule had fallen and was refounded.
IMO Calamity Ganon is OG Ganondorf channeling through TOKT Ganondorf, mostly because of the Boar transformation as that power can only be attributed to Triforce of power Ganondorf - which TOKT Ganondorf is blissfully unaware of. TOKT Ganondorf does not even seem to know about the Calamity, yet this Calamity tries to "resurrect" into a new built body. Which is kinda funny as in "Wait, I did what for how many years?!". It could have been more impactful if he did though, as it would have made Link's personal strife with him more meaningful. But that's my headcanon as to why I think Calamity is the original one. AoC is non canon but if you were to speculate - same as calamity but managed to resurrect after stealing a body. We know from japanese folklore that spirits and deities grow more powerful with worship and cults to them - so Astor's fanaticism, dark magic and actions helped to channel him back to life without a mechanical construct.
he JUST. KEEPS. COMING. BACK!!!!!!!!!!