I like to think of the primarchs as being all kinda samey in their raw attributes. Sure Magnus is an anomaly and Vulcan and Mr hands are probably 2a and 2b after Magnus but I think the physically weaker primarchs like Lorgar aren't nearly as far away from Vulcan as you might think. I like this interpretation because it helps make sense of primarchs pulling out random Ws over other primarchs they really shouldn't be defeating.
I always wondered why every ranking I see has Lorgar as the weakest. He always was my least favorite but what made him weaker? Was it because he was never given something he was better than everyone else was at something?
Lorgar had really strong psychic powers that didn’t manifest until later in his life, once he’d dabbles in chaos. He was also just in general more quiet and peaceful than other primarchs, which led to the more aggressive ones like Russ and Angron labelling him as a weakling. But he never was, he took two shots from a Titan at point blank range and survived.
It’s been a while since I read it but I thought his psychic powers didn’t fully bloom until they’re invading the Ultramarine world and he’s fighting Guilliman? I’m probably wrong I cant remember the timeline right now
To help you recall—his powers began developing prior to the drop site massacre, but he didn’t develop more of mastery of them until around the start of the Shadow Crusade into the 500 worlds. It’s during that Crusade that Lorgar is able to tank hits from the Titan and that’s because his psychic kinetic shield ate up the first shot.
Even then he didn't just tank the shots either. He was roasted and barely hanging on to life, hence the whole angron stopped a titans foot bit as it went to crush Primarch shaped bugs
Lorgar dislikes fighting and being a general. In the First Heretic when he finally pulls himself together for a big awesome protagonist moment he rushes forward and is smacked down by Corax. In other novels like Wolfsbane Leman Russ says he could kill Lorgar by spitting on him he's so weak. On the Tabletop he's also one of the weakest fighters stat wise.
But it should be noted that after the Heresy kicks off Magnus thinks Lorgar looks whole for the first time and like he's finally found his role. He develops as a psyker and grows immensely in confidence. It's also important to remember that a weak Primarch is still a Primarch.
No, they fought after istvaan but that was not a full 10,000 years, Lorgar broke his meditation about 1000 years in to assist the word bearers and has been meditating ever since his fight with Warp Corax.
Ah, I thought it was more recently than that
Still, after Lorgar had developed his powers and become a Demon Prince, no? So my overall point that even powered up he's getting his arse kicked by Corax still stands
Ehhh, he got his ass handed by Corax on Istvan, only surviving because Curze of all people intervened. But when he fought Warpform Corax he held his own. He eventually did retreat but both were significantly wounded. So Corax did "win" but it was close, which is a stark contract to Istvaan where Corax didn't even break a sweat.
That's not how it went down. Lorgar pretty clearly lost their second fight, was severely wounded (certainly much more than Corax) and was helped by his entire legion while Corax was fighting alone.
I might be misremembering but I thought Lorgar was keeping his marines safe from outside influence while at the same time fighting Corvax while his marines basically stood by and watched. Been a while though.
Iirc Lorgar was initially regarded as the weakest because he spent more time preaching and travelling around than fighting notably to the point that the Emperor has to call him out because his compliance rate during the Crusade was so low and eventually sending the Ultramarines after him (and also for the religious stuff). Still a godlike fighter compared to most other things in the universe but martially couldn't hold a candle to any of his brothers. By the start of the Heresy that had changed as he was a better combatant and had started embracing his Psyker powers.
As of 40k he's obviously a Daemon Primarch so has incredibly physical power but has focused more on his psychic might which puts him pretty far up in the psyker tier list. Apparently he's also mastered Enuncia, something nobody else including the Emperor has managed to do which makes him pretty singularly powerful as Enuncia is basically a language of ridiculously strong and high level power words capable of just about anything. Still got bodied by Corax though lmao
Lorgar himself admits he's weak, as he doesn't see himself as a fighter and doesn't really understand what's been happening with himself psychically. He also spent his life being more of a preacher and less fighting
He's not inherently weaker or less skilled. His fighting ability and generalship just wasn't as developed as the others because he went down a path on Colchis that resulted in him having the least interest in being a warrior or soldier.
We've seen BL authors echoing this. Who wins a primarch fights basically comes down to context is the throughline. A good example being Russ vs Magnus, where it was obvious that Magnus was more powerful but Russ won because of contextual factors and a bit of luck.
It wouldn't make much sense for the Emperor to create them with massive gaps in physical ability.
Magnus is obviously the main outlier as the only immensely powerful psychic and there's Vulkan's immortality being a real unknown in purpose...after all why not make them all perpetual respawners? But for stuff like strength, speed, brainpower, durability, etc...it makes a lot more sense to have the deviation be small.
In elite sports, small differences can lead to significant outcomes.
Take tennis, for example. The gap between players ranked 1-100 and those ranked 101-200 can be significant in outcomes but is often small in skill and potential. Top 100 players are more consistent and refined, performing reliably at the highest level. Those ranked 101-200 are often close to breaking through, needing minor improvements to advance. While impactful for earnings and wins, these differences are minor compared to the overall tennis population.
A second-tier player can beat a first-tier player on a good day and can move up with changes in mindset, training, or tactics.
In the 30k reality, Primarchs would fight in complex contexts, choosing battlefields and times to their advantage. A second-tier duelling l Primarch like Guilliman could gain an edge over a top-tier duelling Primarch like Fulgrim by manipulating battle circumstances. It's akin to a second-tier tennis player forcing a top-tier player to play on a hill, creating an uneven playing field. In tennis, that would be regarded as cheating. In battle, it's considered a core part of the 'game'. One might regard Alpharius as a weak Primarch, but there's a good chance he could put a lethal bullet from a sniper rifle into the Lion's skull under the right circumstances.
Only Magnus stands out as an anomaly. Even his more talented offspring can assassinate targets from planetary distances.
Russ is also a psyker but with anti-psyker powers. His howl, for instance, disrupted the Tson’s sorcery. Him vs Magnus was a good matchup for Russ. He also brought along a bunch of Sisters of Silence to further dampen Magnus’ abilities.
“Complaining” is not the right word.
To me, Magnus vs Russ is the worst possible matchup for Magnus. It’s why Russ was sent after him.
I don’t think Russ is the strongest Primarch because I think he would lose a fight to some of the most martially accomplished Primarchs like Lion, Khan, or Angron.
Meanwhile, Russ and maybe Sangy are the only primarchs to even have a reasonable chance against Magnus.
The Lion doesn't seem as confident as you are:
*The Lion wastes no more time with words. He has fought Leman Russ before, and he knows that such things only end when the Wolf King is either incapacitated or chooses to stop of his own accord. He sidesteps Russ’ lunge, then swings a fist. He knocked Russ unconscious once, on Dulan, but his brother was laughing then. Russ is not laughing now. He swats the blow aside and slams a punch of his own into the Lion’s chest, his face twisted in rage.*
*The foolish see the savagery of the Space Wolves and dismiss it as nothing more than that, but Lion El’Jonson knows better. There is a calculated rage within his brother that longs to spring forward and lay waste, but Russ usually keeps it under tight control, and only lets loose when sanctioned. He is no mindless berserker; every action has a purpose, which is the destruction of his enemy as efficiently as possible.*
.....
*‘A fair fight?’ Angron roars, throwing the Lion off. He piles forward in a furious rush of blows that have all of Russ’ savagery, but none of the control.*
~ **The Lion: Son of the Forest**
The truth is that any of the martial primarchs could take the win depending on the day. Russ is a terrifying opponent to face and is quite capable of defeating his brothers.
Lion properly respecting Russ’ martial ability doesn’t take away from what I said. I think if it came down to a lethal fight, Lion would win. Him recognizing the truth of Russ is a part of that. It certainly would not be an easy win. It would take everything the Lion has, but I think he would win.
It's certainly a bold claim considering the Lion notably struggles against brawlers (something Russ is famed for) which we see in his fight against Curze in *Savage Weapons* and against Russ himself in *Leman Russ: The Great Wolf*. The Lion recognising the danger of his brother isn't an advantage because the same is true in reverse for Russ.
The fight could go either way, they are expressly said and shown to be equals.
I think Vulcan showed pretty decisively that he was the only one who could have faced Magnus head on.
Russ relied on some industrial grade luck to survive his fight with Magnus.
The primarchs may all be equal overall, but there's some rock-paper-scissors to it as well.
I think you are giving too much credit to Vulkan and not enough to Russ.
Vulkan is a perpetual which fucks up a lot of discussions, and tbh is kind of poor writing.
Russ is the Scissors to Magnus’ Paper.
I don't know, I see the opposite here. The big difference the psychic abilities make is mostly giving Magnus the kind of striking power no one else can match since he doesn't use it in a loki-like clever games sort of way. The only primarch who could hope to withstand what Magnus can dish out is Vulkan. Their second fight during the siege showed what Magnus can do, even with his soul shattered.
Russ was getting mangled by Magnus until he got immersion-breakingly lucky multiple times in a row. Magnus falcon punched him and he was on death's door. Frankly I think there's a better argument to be made that Magnus is the paper to Russ's rock.
I agree the perpetual thing screws up these conversations and isn't great writing.
Magnus was defeated by Tzeentch not Russ.
>Ahriman looked past the approaching monsters to see Magnus and Russ locked in battle high above the causeway, the furious horror of their struggle obscured by ethereal fire and bursts of lightning. A flare of black light erupted and Russ cried out in agony. His blade lashed out blindly and struck a fateful blow against his foe’s most dreaded weapon: his eye.
From A Thousand Sons
It's not subtle. As we saw in Prospero Burns Russ and his bigotry and hatred were fostered by Tzeentch, making him his willing tool to force Magnus to give in an join his forces as his chosen primarch. Tzeentch wasn't going to let Magnus win and escape his clutches and like most fights Magnus has to be overpowered by outside forces to get him to lose his fights.
Well, if you read the book, it was said he could annilate the entire fleet with a thought and end it there. Probably not, but he accepted his Legions destruction and didn't participate in 99% of the defense. It was really his own legion that held back the wolves, sisters and custodes combined forces. A very impressive defense if you ask me.
Considering the entirety of the battle as a whole, if Magnus took to the field from the start, and not hide away all depressed, I doubt they would have lost. I think Russ would be forced to retreat at the very least.
> Well, if you read the book, it was said he could annilate the entire fleet with a thought and end it there.
That one would have been a Magnus + Tzeentch combo with a dire cost attached to it according to McNeill.
Magnus was demolishing Russ. Outside intervention from his wolves and literal luck were how Russ survived. It even described him flailing blindly and he just so happens to hit magnus's eye which is the source of his power.
Previous to that Magnus warp-punch Russ so hard his armour exploded into his heart and Russ was on his knees.
magnus was preparing a ritual while fighting russ and russ had his wolves with him and also (its been awhile so i cant remember fully) magnus got flashbanged buy a black lightning bolt which russ took advantage of to slash his other eye, and then shatter his spine and all that.
basically russ was losing until that lucky shot on magnus eye
Russ didnt even take advantage of the black lightning, it was pure. He got blinded to and accidently let go of his sword, which just so happpened to fly right into magnus eye.
I think I remember is saying it was a "fateful" strike, and implying that Tzeentch may have nudged the sword into his eye, as obviously he wanted him to lose as well.
Sanguinius was the strongest without the use of Chaos.
Lion, Russ, Horus, Magnus and Lorgar considered him as such. Russ called him a "baresark (berserker) in angel's garb". Horus called his prowess "perfect" and the peak of mechanical capability. Horus also noted that Sanguinius' tenacity was such that Ferrus, Mortarion or Angron could be felled with one strike, and Sanguinius did exactly that to him, while mortally wounded.
Sanguinius was the strongest physically, without the embrace of the warp
Horus was the strongest with Chaos.
As the Ascendant Vessel Of Chaos Undivided, Horus was a living, breathing Chaos Warp Gate and an anomaly in space-time. His power even superseded The Emperor's. He could casually break reality.
Horus was the strongest a Primarch's ever been, with all the patronage of the Chaos Gods.
Magnus had the most potential.
Magnus was more of a warp given form than actual living being. He had the most potential out of all his brothers. However, he was also patronized by the god of self-defeats. Because Russ shattered his soul, he could never attain his full potential anymore.
Magnus had the most potential with the use of the warp, but his potential never materialized.
Corax is arguably the strongest currently.
Corax willfully shed his mortal form and took on his warp essence, a raven-esque sapient darkness. He's the only Primarch to fully embrace his "divinity" without the use of Chaos, which makes one lose their "essence".
Corax is currently the strongest Primarch, with the help of the Warp, but not Chaos.
>Corax is arguably the strongest currently.
>Corax willfully shed his mortal form and took on his warp essence, a raven-esque sapient darkness. He's the only Primarch to fully embrace his "divinity" without the use of Chaos, which makes one lose their "essence".
>Corax is currently the strongest Primarch, with the help of the Warp, but not Chaos.
We've seen Corax exactly *once*, chasing down Lorgar who is famously weak compared to the primarchs. There's no way anyone can argue he's top-tier now when we know literally nothing about what he's capable of beyond spooking Lorgar.
You would think, but the assessment of Shadow-Corax comes from the short story Shadow of the Past, collected in the anthology "Sons of the Emperor." I really recommend reading that anthology, because it has a number of gut punches. Especially for old lore fogies like me.
Anyways, what happened there was Shadow-Corax dueled Daemon Primarch Lorgar and sent him running. Corax almost edged out the win, just like at Istvaan. Bear in mind that this was just after the Heresy, at the beginning of the 10,000 year era of the Imperium. We don't know a lot of what happened to their relative power levels, but we can imagine Lorgar spent the past vacation powering up or that Corax might have gotten old and slightly decrepit like the Lion. We just *don't know.*
If we were to scale Guilliman with the martial feats he's done after his resurrection, I'd actually say Lion bests him. I'd say the feats Angron pulled is more impressive/destructive than Mortarion, and while Mortarion killed Guilliman, Lion defeated Angron.
I don't understand how this is still a debate.
Sanguinius was arguably the best fighter next to Horus and Lionel.
He had enormous psychic power, wings to fly and he could see the future.
He was OP and only lost to a Horus on steroids who left the most powerful being of the material plane half dead.
I mean, it makes perfect sense Sanguinous lost to Horus. Sanguinous is so OP he moves at the speed of light. But Horus moves at the speed of Darkness. Can't beat that!
Sanguinis in series:
Fights a demon prince - kills it
Fights boosted Angron - kills him but is impaled by a demonic blade
Fights titans - closes the eternity gate
(Within one afternoon)
Joins the assault on the vengeful spirit despite his festering chest wound.
Fights Dreadnoughts - also pries open doors meant to be closed from literally anything
Fights Horus - disembowels him, and causes wounds that would be mortal to any other primarch while still being wounded already. Horus has to alter time to catch him and kill him.
I doubt that even non-corrupted magnus would stand a chance.
TBH, I'm pretty convinced Sangy just got the Emps "I'm awesome" aura.
He has the attitude of the emo kids from South Park and everyone still loves him.
His best combat feat is having a laser mounted on a spear and a built in jetpack and every one of his brothers is like "I can't beat him"
The Primarchs were reversed as a lot of things on the worlds they grew up on. Sangys people just straight saw him as a GOD.
Nah his record speaks for itself in the siege books, he goes on a huge streak against some of the strongest opponents anyone can face and he wins without any outside help, he's 100% that guy and it takes an ascended Horus to bring him down.
his best combat feat was destroying titans, killing kabanda, killing angron, than putting up a impressive fight against horus back to back with his injuries adding up. Also Konrad with his armor still saw futures where a unarmored sang could kill him.
For Curze is the one to beat. The guy has fought the most primarchs and lived.
He fought all the 'good bros' at one point or other at least once? Did he fight Leman?
Admittedly, Curze did kill Vulkan a lot. Several times when they fought on Macragge, Curze killed insane Vulkan. But just as Curze has the distinct genetic advantage of foresight, Vulkan doesn’t have to surrender the battle when he dies. If I recall correctly it only ended when Vulkan was stabbed by John Grammaticus with the Fulgurite
Gotta be a bit more specific than that lol.
Can lift the most? Ferrus or Vulcan
Militarily? Gulliman with his 500 worlds simply had more people than anyone else
In a duel? Sanguinius or Horus were always listed as the top two
In a fist fight? Curze or Sanguinius with their future sight
Psychic power? Magnus
Able to build the strongest fortifications? Dorn or Perterabo
Able to withstand the most punishment? Mortarion
Same, he was always a bit too nice and boring until the siege starts, then he runs this incredible gauntlet of super tough enemies and wrecks them all, he even puts up a good fight against Horus despite being half dead. His resolve and determination made me like him.
I never liked Sanguinius. He's a guy who everyone loves, literally an angel, who's also the best fighter and the most compassionate primarch and he's the greatest at everything he tries to do and everyone secretly thinks he should've been warmaster and blah blah blah.
He's boring. He's just *dull*.
Youre viewing him the same way in universe people view him, as perfect. He himself viewed his wings as a taint borne from the warp, he was constantly worried about the flaws of his legion becoming known. The perfect appearance was also compensating for his own insecurities in regards to living up to the Emeperors expectations.
Yeah, he is, I agree. He’s like John Cena or Captain America. But once the siege starts, it’s like that scene where Cap stares down Thanos army on his own, even if you think Cap is boring like I do, that scene is super hype. Boring old Mary Sue Sanguinius actually fighting an unwinnable battle and refusing to give up, getting way further than he reasonably should have, he even admits he doesn’t want to be here fighting and he still keeps going, it’s…inspiring. Even though he loses, hell, BECAUSE he loses, he won me over.
That whole Horus fight is so good. I also love book in the siege when he defends the gate BY HIMSELF. 🫡 they made him OP but with so many good character flaws that he just works so well in my eyes.
If it was an open battlefield, I’d put it as a fatal four-way between Lion El’Johnson, Sanguinius, Jagahtai Khan, and Leman Russ. Urban combat, it’s Konrad Curze.
Primarchs are living tropes. I believe ADB has said "which one will win" is a stupid question and it's about who embodies their values best.
It's a universe where stories and emotions influence unreality which influences unreality and primarchs definitelly have abilities beyond their real forms.
Theory: They are plot devices with bioalchemical physical presences. They are as strong as they need to be. Magnus can snap a planet out of existence but any primarch who better embodies their values, whose story is ascendent can just shrug off his magic because they are a warp entity with just as much reality warping power of their own. He's just less subtle about it.
It's not really "anti psyker powers" they are all warp entities who do stuff beyond what their physical shells are capable of when the plot demands it. Magnus didn't lose to Russ because of Russ' specific power set but because underneath reality another warp entity just as strong as him was there pushing back. At that time, Magnus had brought his story to its nadir after being played like a puppet and making every bad decision. Russ was still quite early in his trip into abysmal failure and idiocy on the other hand.
i like the ascendant narrative concept of primarchs and the warp, its kind of self-evident that things happen because we want/expect them to.
gives me this image of 40k as a manifestation of the collective subconcious of 40k fans and the authors as the gods moving the chess pieces around a board.
Have you read Omniscient Reader's Viewpoint by any chance? The core of the story is somewhat similar. In it everything revolves around stories, a character's power is determined by the value of their story and how much it can resonate with others. There's even cases where some stories are weaker against others, allowing weak stories with favourable matchups to beat stronger ones.
This is pretty much all but actually confirmed in the lore, and we see evidence of it all. The. Time.
Hell, in the Lion novel (the GC era one), The Lion gets hit with a psychic attack that *should* have damaged him severely, but he shrugs it off because the one who cast it was *not important enough*
Strongest as best in combat?
Sanguinius and Horus is always mentioned to be at the very top by their brothers, as is the lion.
Russ is very often mentioned.
Believe it or not, Angron is also up there.
Curze duo to his insanity and foresight.
Mortarion and Corax are also great, I’d put them below the others mentioned.
Magnus, obviously, might just be the strongest… depending on the writer.
The Khan is also insane in combat from what we saw of him.
Fulgrim was insanely skilled with a sword…
Vulkan can’t die, but that’s kinda boring and he’s not at the top in terms of skill.
That’s a lot of names mentioned, and it really is up to interpretation.
If I had to rank them personally with everything we’ve heard from each primarch and what we saw of them all uncorrupted / without aid from chaos:
#1 Magnus. Being physically very weak, he’s here because of him being the 2nd strongest psycher in the galaxy and because of that he’s forced to be here.
#2 Sanguinius. Foresight, insane speed, red thirst, flight and how many insane feats of skill.
#3 & #4 Horus / Lion
I don’t want to put Horus here, but he is really always mentioned by his brothers, you really can’t ignore him.
The Lion is the same.
I’d accept seeing Curze taking someones place here, but I’d place him as #5.
really hard to list them precisely.
Actual physically strongest?
#1 Ferrus, #2 Vulkan and idk who the third strongest would be, perhaps Mortarion or Angron?
The Lion isn't really always mentioned to be at the top by his brothers. There's very little during the series in terms of his brothers thoughts, though it can get lost in large number of online fanboys exaggerating everything. Or Horus either really, at least in regard to fighting prowess specifically; praise for Horus is usually related to overall leadership. The main reference of Lion's fighting is from Astartes characters, or Crusade where the historian talks about how he could wield a blade as well as Fulgrim (not better), but it's no word of god source.
Sanguinius and have the most of it for fighting prowess but even there it's only a small number of other primarchs who actually voice an opinion on it (Corax, Lorgar, Russ). A lot of the sanguinius praise is, like with Horus, more so about his overall persona....the most inspiring figurehead, the kindest nature, etc..
Horus: "The Lion is among the greatest of us, brother. There are few who can best him in combat."
Guilliman: “None can question the Lion's abilities as a warrior. He is one of the most formidable among us.”
Guilliman: "The Lion's tactical acumen and battlefield prowess are second to none. He is a paragon of martial excellence."
Sanguinius: “Lion El'Jonson is a peerless warrior, his blade cuts as true as any. He is one of the best among us.”
Curze: “Lion El'Jonson fights with a cold precision that is almost machine-like. In battle, he is relentless and unmatched.”
Fulgrim: “The Lion’s mastery of the blade is something to behold. His form and technique are flawless, rivaling even my own.”
i was looking for another quote from Fulgrim, I read a better one where he described the lions strength in combat, but I can't remember which book I read it in.
Vulkan: "The Lion fights with a fire and determination that few can match. His strength and skill are a testament to his greatness."
Mortarion: "The Lion is relentless in battle, his strength and determination are nearly unmatched."
Angron: "For all his coldness, the Lion is a warrior without equal. His skill with a blade is something even I can respect."
I remember Russ mention him as one of the best warriors, though he did not mention him when talking about who he would have difficulty beating, so there's that. Russ mentioned Horus, Sanguinius and I believe he also mentioned Curze if I remember correctly, as the ones he wasn't sure if he could beat. I'd take it as Russ putting the Lion at his level or right below, so not a point for my statement, I'll mention it anyway.
Malcador: "The Lion is among the finest warriors the Imperium has ever seen. His ability to lead and his combat skills are exemplary"
While not a primarch, I take Malcadors words to be worth more than ANY primarch, in my opinion.
Dorn: “In the art of war, the Lion stands unmatched. His strategies and combat skills are a testament to his title as the first.”
"He is a warrior of unparalleled skill." - idk if it was Alpharius or Omegon. Touche.
Yes, the Lion was as everyone knows, seen as one of the absolutely best generals, only Horus was on his level in that sense, but as a warrior he has definitely been mentioned a lot of times and not just from astartes or historians, although, they have also mentioned the Lion.
Though I would admit, there aren't many who specifically says that he is the greatest warrior.
But that is not what I claimed either, nor do I think he is above Sanguinius or Magnus - but without question at the very top after the said few.
I don't remember the emperor talking about the lion as one of the greatest fighters however, but I don't remember him mentioning who he thinks is the best fighter in general, so I may have missed or forgotten it at least.
can you provide sources and page numbers for these? I don't remember any of them, and even allowing for the obvious chance of forgetting a few during reading such a sprawling series, i just ran a prose search check on all the ebooks i have (which is a big chunk of the series plus the black books) and there's nothing matching them.
Magnus. I just don't see him losing a fight to the death with another primarch before the chaos gods injected warp juice in a few of them. I am not sure he put everything in his fight with the Wolf on Prospero.
*This was a battle fought on every level: physical, mental and spiritual, with each primarch bending every ounce of their almost limitless power to the other’s destruction.*
~ **A Thousand Sons**
Magnus is the most powerful in terms of psychic strength second only to The Emperor himself however there are two factors that make me discount him as the strongest.
Firstly The Lion says during his fight with all his brothers in his recent 40k era book that the apparition hit far harder than Magnus ever did, his exact words were “Now I know you are a fraud. Magnus never hit that hard.”
Secondly, during the Siege of Terra, Magnus meets Vulkan twice and each time Vulkan absolutely stomps him. Yes Vulkan is a perpetual and resurrects after death but if anything that just levels the playing field with him and Magnus’ psychic power. In fact Vulkan is so much stronger than Magnus that in their final fight Magnus uses a spell to atomically unmake Vulkan, a spell that Magnus himself was quite impressed he was able to do, and Vulkan still landed a killing blow with his hammer even as his entire body turned to ash around him. Later after Magnus has been banished, Malcador sees a vision of an unfleshed husk slowly trudging back towards the webway gate in the throne room, Vulkan was still regenerating from something that reduced him to nothing.
Additionally, in an earlier book we do hear Vulkan himself say that he would always hold back and pull his punches when sparring with his brothers for fear of hurting them.
I am admittedly a little biased as Vulkan is my favourite primarch but it is for the following reason; when The Emperor speaks to Vulkan on Nocturne after their competition, he says that Vulkan’s was “utterly unlike” his brothers and his humanity was both his greatest trait and The Emperor’s greatest achievement. Whether it is a deliberate design by The Emperor to make the most human Primarch undying and thereby make humanity as a concept undying is up for debate but it is a rather poetic coincidence if not.
I think Vulkan often gets underestimated a lot in these discussions, even without taking into account his regen ability, but tbf to Magnus, i wouldn't say Vulkan had it easy in either of those fights.
The first one was evenly contested until Magnus seemed to have subdued him and lined up a killing blow with his telekinesis, which one of Vulkan's drakswaard jumps in front of at the last second. Vulkan takes advantage of that to close the distance and pummel him, which results in Magnus giving in to Tzeentch to avoid death.
In the second fight before he lost, he killed Vulkan over and over to the extent it got pretty damn stupid imo.
I agree that neither fight was easy but I don’t think that it’s fair to say that if you don’t count his regen ability, because it’s like not counting Magnus’ psychic ability.
Ever since he escaped his cell on Macragge his regen ability is part of how he fights. Curze killed him and threw him off a building once and he was alive again before he hit the ground.
Vulkan lives, so does humanity, undying forever.
Curze. My boy could see the future, went toe-to-toe with The Lion (who I think we can all agree is a top 5 martial Primarch), almost “killed” Vulkan, survived a 2v1 duel against The Lion and G-Man, and almost killed Sanguinius.
Honestly, Sanguinius was the strongest Primarch pre Horus’ fall to darkness. He had the golden combo to victory. Flight, psyker powers off the charts and tremendous battle skill. He only lost to Horus because Horus was infused with so much warp power from the chaos gods.
Russ is the second because he was the Executioner and he was able to duel and almost beat a Chaos infused Horus pre Siege and take down a psychic Magnus during The Razing of Prospero even though he got one of his hearts punched out of his chest. Honestly, Russ should’ve put Curze down like a dog after he blew up Nostramo. For those who mention the Angron fight, Russ wasn’t trying to kill Angron, he was trying to corral him and rein him in. If he’d wanted to, pre Daemon Angron would’ve died, though not easily.
Russ lost to Lion, as did Kurze.
But Power scaling is not working with the primarchs.
Each one can beat any of the others if the situation (plot) demands it. Except horus on Chaos Juice.
Russ lost to the Lion cause mid way through he lost concentration and started laughing about how stupid they were to be fighting. Though you’re not wrong about the Primarchs and the plot.
Nah that was after the lion hesitated to kill him.
Russ lost the duel when he lost his weapon and the Lion didnt push further.
The laughing at the end is after the fight was already decided and the brawl concluded.
Yes, but still neither was fighting to kill and Russ is the anti-psyker Primarch. He himself admits that he’s sparred with all of his brothers and knows he could kill them all, except only with Horus he was hesitant to fight him.
Russ is an unreliable Narrator. Additionally when he speaks about those who bested him he only mentions Emps/Allfather and "there was another" speaking about the Lion.
The Lion is no psyker in the traditional sense. He is just a damn good duelist. So good that he can foil Curzes foresight. I know theres a lot of Fan wank surrounding him and he has his flaws, but excluding sanguinus and Chaos juiced horus, he is the best duelist there is.
Even Chaos calls him the duelist. That has to count for something.
He is a big threat and a good fighter. But his personal track record?
Got his ass handed to him by Horus, got beaten by the Lion in a fair duel (no circumstances there), the duel between him and angron was a loss as well except the "i beat you since i got you surrounded".
He is gloating a lot for someone who lost most of his fights.
Well yes. But magnus is in a weird spot. He is way too strong lore wise to even put him in one League with all of them.
Im not discounting that russ is a capable fighter. Maybe even top tier. But his own assumptions were disproven and so its time for show dont tell.
Curze doesn't have combat precog that he can always rely on, this is something that Lion fanboys made up/misinterpreted to pump up their guy and is a common misconception. It can help occasionally, but other than going into overdrive that one time against Sanguinius, which was meant to show an unusual occurrence in the way their precog capabilities reacted specifically to each other, he mostly he gets random visions that can be more debilitating than helpful in the moment.
Also Chaos doesn't call him the duelist, not as some "yeah he's the best fighter among the primarchs" comment.
It was Ingethal getting pissed at khorne breaking the deal the four gods had supposedly made and sending An'ggrath against Lorgar. As lorgar gets ready to fight him, she panics and talks about how he won't win as he's not a martial being like his brothers, then compares him to some, along with a trait related to them....He's not the brawler russ is, not the killer Curze is, not the duelist Lion is and so on
It's not supposed to be elevating one over the others, just pointing out how Lorgar isn't as capable as any of them...but he then goes on to prove her wrong by beating An'ggrath anyway.
Well i had Pharos in mind to be honest.
I know that curze doesnt show his precog in the other duels.
I agree that ingethel uses it to discourage lorgar from risking his life but at the same time the nicknames are far from random. Russ the brawler, Dorn the soldier etc all draw on their personalities.
To call the Lion the duelist seems deliberate as they couldve chosen any other nickname to describe him.
But as always the only constant is inconsistency.
It is deliberate and is a reference to Lion's knightly background in the order and him being a swordsman. If Khan or Fulgrim had been mentioned they'd probably be described as something along the lines of the fencer/the blade artist etc, it's the same thing really.
just saying that doesn't automatically translate to better at fighting overall.
Khan gets mentioned as the warrior.
Most if not all of them are "swordsmen". Fulgrim should be called the peacock.
It doesnt necessarily elevate him over everyone else but its an interesting tidbit.
I guess we need to wait for new lore, which shows the lion fighting. All we have in 40k is him stomping traitors while lamenting how slow he is.
Well and aoo in which he fights angron but thats down to tactics (everything else would be absurd though).
We don't know much about the actual fight to say that Russ wasn't trying to kill Angron. In fact, Russ started the fight because he allowed Angron's words to get to him, with this in mind, we could easily say that Russ was trying to kill Angron and it wasn't until both Primarchs saw that The Space Wolves came to Russ's aid where you can argue that Russ could have killed Angron (through his men's bolters) and even then, I also believe that it's said that Angron had russ on his back so at the very least it'd have ended with both primarchs dying
Horus wasn't the best fighter, he was simply the best to lead the crusade per the Big E. Horus only became the strongest after the Chaos Gods gave him powers. OP is talking about before.
He is not the only primarch who did that. Hell, practically as soon as Ferrus came out of the pod he had to fight a presumed necron construct and killed it by drowning it in lava.
What do you mean by strongest? In battle Russ, Sanguinius, Konrad Kurze and Angron would be the prime picks. Naturally Corax, Horus and Lion would also be in the mix.
In terms of legion versus legion combat effectiveness, probably the Ultramarines would win 1v1. Although the Space wolves were the natural legion exterminators.
In general, each primarch embodies an aspect of the Emperor and is a specialist. So all are the strongest in their specific field.
Magnus was already flirting with Tzeentch at the earliest days of the Great Crusade. He made a deal to stop the flesh change in those days with an entity he knew was powerful, just not what it was in totality. He overestimated his abilities in the face of the embodiment of magic.
Sanguinius purely for all the comic book-y stupid shit he got up to in the siege, and not to mention fighting kabhanda 3 times over the course of the heresy
I think it depends on when and where they were at the time. Pre-Heresy, going by the rules from the Horus Heresy tabletop game, Magnus had the most power if he was lucky. A lucky roll could push his psychic powers up into a disgustingly powerful, Titan killing Destroyer hit, though this wasn't reliable. Russ has the most raw physical power, Horus coming in second, and Morty being the most resillient.
I think its hard too say, they all had their unique styles.
In theory I'd say Magnus' Magic gives him an edge, but he was probably not as good in melee as others.
Lorgar and Mortarion both weren't using any of their psychic skills, Lorgar wasn't aware of them yet and Moetarion hated and repressed them.
I think most primarchs agreed on Sanguinius being the strongest/best fighter amongst all of them though
Depends really on how you measure it, Magnus would have been strongest due to his sheer physic power, if you take physic powers off the table he tumbles down the ranking with Vulkan holding the top for physical strength and the lion for tactical skill. If you’re looking at overall package then it changes again but gets more nuanced.
As to those wondering why Angron gets ranked low, it’s due to the butchers nails giving him a massive handicap to be exploited and everyone clings to fact he was the only Primarch to fail to even come close to conquering his world and was going to die.
Vulkan, with a "K", not the ancient Roman god Vulcan describes himself as physically the strongest and most capable fighter amongst his brothers. That no one would ever really see that side of him because he'd never let anyone see him lose that much control of himself.
I don't know whether we, the audience, should actually believe that though.
I think the genuine answer is Magnus and Sanguinius. If anyone was ever going to match anyone or be able to kill their sibling, it's Sanguinius.
Baseline Sanguinis stood toe to toe with a peek boosted Horus for long enough to make Horus mad. This was while bearing a festering chest wound from Angron's infected sword. I feel like it is Sanguinis by a wide margin.
Horus cruelly allowed him to do that, he could have killed him instantly but still initially wanted to give him a chance to join him. As soon as he realised Sanguinius was truly committed and actually decided to use any of those boosts he ended the fight.
Fulgrim beat Mr. Hands twice as a mortal. Turns out incessant peacocking doesn't actually subtract from your skills as a duelist. Angron's up there too.
As for the usually argued "best",
Leman's only win was against a suicidally depressed Magnus and he got beat by Horus, the Lion, and Angron.
Sangys best feat is killing a titan, something at least two other brothers have done and literally any could have with his spear and a jetpack.
Kurze has great showings, but mostly by the one author who decided being a psycher was spidy sense.
Magnus is actually the most powerful though. Massive psycher hacks are a pretty insta win. Vulkan only beats him because he's fully juiced up and regenerates like Wolverine by the end of the Hersey.
>Fulgrim beat Mr. Hands twice as a mortal
He won the first time under really abnormal circumstances. I don't think there's ever been a more prime example of being emotionally ambushed then when Ferrus learned what his closest brother was doing and wanted him to do. Plus, while Fulgrim was winning, Ferrus was the one to bring the battle to an end by blowing up Flameblade like a florescent tube and temporarily stunning them both.
The second time at the DSM Ferrus was straight up winning, disarming Fulgrim and putting him on his ass, before the Keeper of Secrets in the Laer Blade intervened and juiced Fulgrim, so pre-Chaos they're closer to 1-1.
I'd also argue Ferrus' strength is more honed against anti-large and monstrous enemies from his time on Medusa, so going toe-to-toe with a duelist is impressive in his own right in displaying versatility.
Russ was able to bait Horus into trading blows and got shanked with his claws but he was able to pierce Horus in the chest and could’ve killed him if he followed through on it, but gave Horus a second chance which didn’t work. The fight was in Horus’ favor but Russ is a brawler and extremely good at trading blows.
Russ was entirely on the defensive but only needed to land one hit with the uber-spear for its powers to kick in. Horus doesn't know the capabilities of the spear, so Russ sets the hit up by getting shanked, then stabbing Horus while he thinks he's in a position to gloat over his badly injured foe.
It's an odd fight as Guy Haley completely forgets that Horus is also hugely powerful psyker by this point and just has him be basically a physically juiced primarch +3 strength and speed build.
After landing the spear, which befuddles Horus and temporarily shows him the truth about Chaos intentions, Russ doesn't take the chance to kill him, instead trying to convince him to throw off the yoke. Asshole Horus tells him he'd be rebelling anyway, Chaos or no Chaos, and proceeds to beat him to a pulp until enough of the Wolves pile in and distract him so the rest can get Russ to safety and off the ship.
it's not a Russ vs Horus fair fight scenario and more about the spear being something that gives a normal primarch a small chance against what Horus has become. Whatever primarch is wielding the spear isn't that important. Horus not knowing what it is and being overconfident is the key.
Sangy killed titans, killed kabanda and angron back to back, brought horus to his knees, but yeah i agree magnus definetly the most powerful, providing he isnt depressed
Sangy killed ~~a titan. One~~ a couple of titans.
By flying onto its back, shoving a laser power spear through its neck into the cockpit, and firing the spear.
That's it. Literally any of his brothers could do this with a jetpack and that spear. All the Primarchs can rip through greater daemons like they're cannon fodder at this point. Even Bobby and Lorgar can solo them lol
Edit: I'm not counting the one he boarded with a company and thunder hawk fire support as a kill for Sangy.
Edit: I stand corrected Sanggy has killed a few
Magnus. And again, Sangy took down a titan because he happens to have wings and a spear that shoots lasers. It wasn't a feat of skill. He flew up to it, put his spear through its neck, and discharged the laser into the cockpit.
Ur 1st post said sangs best feat was just killing a titan, I'm saying his best feat was killing a titan, kabanda, angron, and bringing Horus to his knees, especially the last 2 as he carried the wounds he got from angron to his fight with horus.
Also if u don't mind do u know what book Magnus did that? I don't think I read it
That's not a single feat it's multiple feats although yes he was still wounded when he fought Horus so there's a caveat on the L.
A thousand sons I think. He also kills a gargant in older stuff but I can't remember which book that snippet is from.
Sanguinius killed the Emperor Titan Axis Mundi in *Titandeath*.
He killed a Warlord Titan in *Saturnine*.
He killed the Reaver Titan Daughter Of Torment in *Echoes Of Eternity*.
He killed a Warhound Titan in *TEATDII*.
He also killed an Eldar Titan.
>Axis Mundi in Titandeath.
Already said I'm not counting the one he boarded with a company of marines and heavy fire support.
>Warlord Titan in Saturnine.
Covered. Laser spear did 49% of the work, wings did another 49% of the work. Sangy gets 2% credit.
>Daughter Of Torment in Echoes Of Eternity.
Legit forgot that one. Bumped Sangys score although I'm annoyed at how easy this feat was. Did the titan even fight back?
>an Eldar Titan.
I forgot this one deliberately. One of the most painful examples of powercreep and Primarch wank by GW. Not the titan kill itself, Sanggy just gets to tank a psilance afterwards because he's the golden hawk boi.
>Already said I'm not counting the one he boarded with a company of marines and heavy fire support.
Agreed with your point, but without Sanguinius the Sanguinary Guard would've likely done jackshit.
>Covered. Laser spear did 49% of the work, wings did another 49% of the work. Sangy gets 2% credit.
I mean, the laser spear and wings are Sangy's tho. It's like saying Sangy won the fight because he had a body and a weapon. It's f'n moot.
>Legit forgot that one. Bumped Sangys score although I'm annoyed at how easy this feat was. Did the titan even fight back?
The titan was retreating back and Sanguinius speedblitzed it. This shouldn't lower the score however, because Reavers are smaller than Warhounds and he already demonstrated how Warhounds stack against him in actual combat.
>I forgot this one deliberately. One of the most painful examples of powercreep and Primarch wank by GW. Not the titan kill itself, Sanggy just gets to tank a psilance afterwards because he's the golden hawk boi.
Yeah. I absolutely agree with this, and my favourite character is Sanguinius. This is such a powerwank that appears out of nowhere and disappears immediately, never to be brought up again. While I do believe Sanguinius could defeat the titan, as he does so with the Emperor and Warhound, he should struggle much more, and he should've avoided the psilance all together.
still killed angron and brought horus to his knees, despite his injuries and lack of rest, i was more arguing that him doing all those things back to back is his best feat, unless u count the futures where a armored konrad saw a unarmored sang kill him
Last I saw of BigRed, he was screaming into the web way, after being curb stomped by Papa Smurf. A couple blanks and even his demonic "gifts" aren't enough to call him powerful.
You might want to go reread that fight. Magnus was winning to the point Bobby was considering just laying down and dying in a pile of bubble. Then Magnus got jumped by 2 squads of SoS and while unable to use his powers and suffering the pain of being a warp creature near them Bobby managed the incredible feat of landing one solid blow.
Magnus psyslapped him so hard afterwards that Birdman staggered back from the recoil and into a webway gate which the Eldar closed.
Magnus laid a good trap, granted. And Bobby G walked through it and survived and completed his goal. Magnus was unable to stop him. Outnumbered and exhausted and ambushed, Bobby prevailed over Magnus. As Guilliman said to Magnus, " maybe the gifts from your new masters aren't so powerful ". I'd score it a win for Bobby.
Sanguinius beat demon Angron and Ka’Bandha and put up an incredibly good showing against demon Horus. Him beating a titan was cool but seemed to be well within his comfort zone.
I mean, so's the Lion, Perty, and a company of Grey Knights.
Ka'Banda beat him once, lost the second round, and was weak and ignoring him in the third. Beating GDs isn't a significant challenge for the Primarchs. Even Lorgar can solo Angrath the Unbound.
Which part was the good showing? The part where Horus wasn't trying, or the part where Horus folded him like a towel? Horus literally ended that fight in two blows once he decided he was done.
The strongest in raw strength is Vulcan. When Vulkan and Kurze fight in the "It's also a hammer" battle Vulkan reveals to him that Vulkan always pulled his punches when training with all the other primarchs.
I think Kurze then laughs about it being a bluff or something, and then Vulkan grabs him, ragdolls him, smashes him against a force shield or whatever until it breaks from sheer strength.
Then the "It's also a hammer" moment occurs.
Powerscalling wise? eeeeh, its a bit meaningless to try to measure them in general, so comparing them when each is found power wise is a bit of a conundrum. Fulgrim and Lorgar would be too weak, as they scale better as the crusade goes on. Corax would be weaker too, as he spends a lot of time training with Emps, so it depends on how much he mastered his "banishing" powers before Emps.
Magnus would probably be weaker than during the heresy, so I guess early Russ could take early Magnus. Angron is supposed to grow weaker as the crusade goes on, as when people say the nails are killing him... well, the nails actually ARE killing him. His daemonic ascension is Lorgars attempt at saving his life. So, Angron would be at his peak when he is found, but also terribly depressed.
My bet keeping it simple would be Russ or the Lion. EDIT: And Sanguinius of course, forgot about him for a moment lol
Umm what do you mean by "without the influence of Chaos"?
Because psychic abilities come from the warp, which is Chaos
Curze and Sanguinius' precognition is most likely based in psychic abilities and chaos
Hell all of what makes Sanguinius so special is because he's more mutated than everyone else, so lotta chaos.
The strongest primarch is always Vulcan. He can't be defeated, he'll just come back until he beats you. Like playing tennis against a wall bro..fucken relentless
I like to think of the primarchs as being all kinda samey in their raw attributes. Sure Magnus is an anomaly and Vulcan and Mr hands are probably 2a and 2b after Magnus but I think the physically weaker primarchs like Lorgar aren't nearly as far away from Vulcan as you might think. I like this interpretation because it helps make sense of primarchs pulling out random Ws over other primarchs they really shouldn't be defeating.
I always wondered why every ranking I see has Lorgar as the weakest. He always was my least favorite but what made him weaker? Was it because he was never given something he was better than everyone else was at something?
Lorgar had really strong psychic powers that didn’t manifest until later in his life, once he’d dabbles in chaos. He was also just in general more quiet and peaceful than other primarchs, which led to the more aggressive ones like Russ and Angron labelling him as a weakling. But he never was, he took two shots from a Titan at point blank range and survived.
Yeah, but as you said, that was after becoming a sorcerer.
It’s been a while since I read it but I thought his psychic powers didn’t fully bloom until they’re invading the Ultramarine world and he’s fighting Guilliman? I’m probably wrong I cant remember the timeline right now
To help you recall—his powers began developing prior to the drop site massacre, but he didn’t develop more of mastery of them until around the start of the Shadow Crusade into the 500 worlds. It’s during that Crusade that Lorgar is able to tank hits from the Titan and that’s because his psychic kinetic shield ate up the first shot.
Even then he didn't just tank the shots either. He was roasted and barely hanging on to life, hence the whole angron stopped a titans foot bit as it went to crush Primarch shaped bugs
Lorgar dislikes fighting and being a general. In the First Heretic when he finally pulls himself together for a big awesome protagonist moment he rushes forward and is smacked down by Corax. In other novels like Wolfsbane Leman Russ says he could kill Lorgar by spitting on him he's so weak. On the Tabletop he's also one of the weakest fighters stat wise. But it should be noted that after the Heresy kicks off Magnus thinks Lorgar looks whole for the first time and like he's finally found his role. He develops as a psyker and grows immensely in confidence. It's also important to remember that a weak Primarch is still a Primarch.
Curze laughing and taunting Lorgar over the Corax beat down was hilarious.
Doesn't he still get absolutely manhandled by Corax in his shadow demon form not too long ago? 10,000 years and some things never change
No, they fought after istvaan but that was not a full 10,000 years, Lorgar broke his meditation about 1000 years in to assist the word bearers and has been meditating ever since his fight with Warp Corax.
Supposedly Lorgar has been seen leading WB in realspace since Guilliman returned.
You're right, recently yes. He was meditating for 10,000 years before.
Damn he meditated that long? If he isn't "one with everything" yet, he's never gonna be.
Well, he was most like the big E, and big E did love him some incognito meditation
Ah, I thought it was more recently than that Still, after Lorgar had developed his powers and become a Demon Prince, no? So my overall point that even powered up he's getting his arse kicked by Corax still stands
Ehhh, he got his ass handed by Corax on Istvan, only surviving because Curze of all people intervened. But when he fought Warpform Corax he held his own. He eventually did retreat but both were significantly wounded. So Corax did "win" but it was close, which is a stark contract to Istvaan where Corax didn't even break a sweat.
That's not how it went down. Lorgar pretty clearly lost their second fight, was severely wounded (certainly much more than Corax) and was helped by his entire legion while Corax was fighting alone.
I might be misremembering but I thought Lorgar was keeping his marines safe from outside influence while at the same time fighting Corvax while his marines basically stood by and watched. Been a while though.
They did stand by and watch but they intervened after noticing Lorgars barrier weakening and the fact that he was seriously wounded.
Lorgar was explicitly losing the fight, they had to jump in and save him
Lorgar might be top tier together with Magnus in the 41st millennium with all the enuncia he’s been meditating.
Also he isn't in thrall to any one Chaos god
Because he's everyone's bitch. Chaos undivided and all that.
Iirc Lorgar was initially regarded as the weakest because he spent more time preaching and travelling around than fighting notably to the point that the Emperor has to call him out because his compliance rate during the Crusade was so low and eventually sending the Ultramarines after him (and also for the religious stuff). Still a godlike fighter compared to most other things in the universe but martially couldn't hold a candle to any of his brothers. By the start of the Heresy that had changed as he was a better combatant and had started embracing his Psyker powers. As of 40k he's obviously a Daemon Primarch so has incredibly physical power but has focused more on his psychic might which puts him pretty far up in the psyker tier list. Apparently he's also mastered Enuncia, something nobody else including the Emperor has managed to do which makes him pretty singularly powerful as Enuncia is basically a language of ridiculously strong and high level power words capable of just about anything. Still got bodied by Corax though lmao
So you're saying he's the Dragonborn now.
Lorgar himself admits he's weak, as he doesn't see himself as a fighter and doesn't really understand what's been happening with himself psychically. He also spent his life being more of a preacher and less fighting
He's not inherently weaker or less skilled. His fighting ability and generalship just wasn't as developed as the others because he went down a path on Colchis that resulted in him having the least interest in being a warrior or soldier.
Until he was chaos touched he had nothing special even a non fighter like guilliman was capable of analyzing combat to fight better
We've seen BL authors echoing this. Who wins a primarch fights basically comes down to context is the throughline. A good example being Russ vs Magnus, where it was obvious that Magnus was more powerful but Russ won because of contextual factors and a bit of luck.
I'm sure one of them discussing it before is where I adopted the thought process from.
It wouldn't make much sense for the Emperor to create them with massive gaps in physical ability. Magnus is obviously the main outlier as the only immensely powerful psychic and there's Vulkan's immortality being a real unknown in purpose...after all why not make them all perpetual respawners? But for stuff like strength, speed, brainpower, durability, etc...it makes a lot more sense to have the deviation be small.
In elite sports, small differences can lead to significant outcomes. Take tennis, for example. The gap between players ranked 1-100 and those ranked 101-200 can be significant in outcomes but is often small in skill and potential. Top 100 players are more consistent and refined, performing reliably at the highest level. Those ranked 101-200 are often close to breaking through, needing minor improvements to advance. While impactful for earnings and wins, these differences are minor compared to the overall tennis population. A second-tier player can beat a first-tier player on a good day and can move up with changes in mindset, training, or tactics. In the 30k reality, Primarchs would fight in complex contexts, choosing battlefields and times to their advantage. A second-tier duelling l Primarch like Guilliman could gain an edge over a top-tier duelling Primarch like Fulgrim by manipulating battle circumstances. It's akin to a second-tier tennis player forcing a top-tier player to play on a hill, creating an uneven playing field. In tennis, that would be regarded as cheating. In battle, it's considered a core part of the 'game'. One might regard Alpharius as a weak Primarch, but there's a good chance he could put a lethal bullet from a sniper rifle into the Lion's skull under the right circumstances. Only Magnus stands out as an anomaly. Even his more talented offspring can assassinate targets from planetary distances.
Magnus was and likely still is.
Magnus’ raw power is so immense that the only way to keep him in check is for the writers to make him an absolute buffoon, a tragic existence
Yet he always forgets he's an absurd psyker every time he has to throw hands
Then explain me how his fight against Russ went.
Russ is also a psyker but with anti-psyker powers. His howl, for instance, disrupted the Tson’s sorcery. Him vs Magnus was a good matchup for Russ. He also brought along a bunch of Sisters of Silence to further dampen Magnus’ abilities.
The Sisters of Silence couldn't even get close to that battle between brothers nor does Magnus get affected in any way when we read the fight.
He did have his two wolves with him as well, and if I remember them distracting/minorly injuring Magnus was very important to Russ winning
I mean controlling and empowering wolves is one of Leman's powers, I don't see anyone complaining about Magnus using his psyker powers or sorcery.
“Complaining” is not the right word. To me, Magnus vs Russ is the worst possible matchup for Magnus. It’s why Russ was sent after him. I don’t think Russ is the strongest Primarch because I think he would lose a fight to some of the most martially accomplished Primarchs like Lion, Khan, or Angron. Meanwhile, Russ and maybe Sangy are the only primarchs to even have a reasonable chance against Magnus.
The Lion doesn't seem as confident as you are: *The Lion wastes no more time with words. He has fought Leman Russ before, and he knows that such things only end when the Wolf King is either incapacitated or chooses to stop of his own accord. He sidesteps Russ’ lunge, then swings a fist. He knocked Russ unconscious once, on Dulan, but his brother was laughing then. Russ is not laughing now. He swats the blow aside and slams a punch of his own into the Lion’s chest, his face twisted in rage.* *The foolish see the savagery of the Space Wolves and dismiss it as nothing more than that, but Lion El’Jonson knows better. There is a calculated rage within his brother that longs to spring forward and lay waste, but Russ usually keeps it under tight control, and only lets loose when sanctioned. He is no mindless berserker; every action has a purpose, which is the destruction of his enemy as efficiently as possible.* ..... *‘A fair fight?’ Angron roars, throwing the Lion off. He piles forward in a furious rush of blows that have all of Russ’ savagery, but none of the control.* ~ **The Lion: Son of the Forest** The truth is that any of the martial primarchs could take the win depending on the day. Russ is a terrifying opponent to face and is quite capable of defeating his brothers.
Lion properly respecting Russ’ martial ability doesn’t take away from what I said. I think if it came down to a lethal fight, Lion would win. Him recognizing the truth of Russ is a part of that. It certainly would not be an easy win. It would take everything the Lion has, but I think he would win.
It's certainly a bold claim considering the Lion notably struggles against brawlers (something Russ is famed for) which we see in his fight against Curze in *Savage Weapons* and against Russ himself in *Leman Russ: The Great Wolf*. The Lion recognising the danger of his brother isn't an advantage because the same is true in reverse for Russ. The fight could go either way, they are expressly said and shown to be equals.
I think Vulcan showed pretty decisively that he was the only one who could have faced Magnus head on. Russ relied on some industrial grade luck to survive his fight with Magnus. The primarchs may all be equal overall, but there's some rock-paper-scissors to it as well.
I think you are giving too much credit to Vulkan and not enough to Russ. Vulkan is a perpetual which fucks up a lot of discussions, and tbh is kind of poor writing. Russ is the Scissors to Magnus’ Paper.
I don't know, I see the opposite here. The big difference the psychic abilities make is mostly giving Magnus the kind of striking power no one else can match since he doesn't use it in a loki-like clever games sort of way. The only primarch who could hope to withstand what Magnus can dish out is Vulkan. Their second fight during the siege showed what Magnus can do, even with his soul shattered. Russ was getting mangled by Magnus until he got immersion-breakingly lucky multiple times in a row. Magnus falcon punched him and he was on death's door. Frankly I think there's a better argument to be made that Magnus is the paper to Russ's rock. I agree the perpetual thing screws up these conversations and isn't great writing.
The sisters of silence narrative should probably die out. They had no impact on that duel.
Magnus was defeated by Tzeentch not Russ. >Ahriman looked past the approaching monsters to see Magnus and Russ locked in battle high above the causeway, the furious horror of their struggle obscured by ethereal fire and bursts of lightning. A flare of black light erupted and Russ cried out in agony. His blade lashed out blindly and struck a fateful blow against his foe’s most dreaded weapon: his eye. From A Thousand Sons It's not subtle. As we saw in Prospero Burns Russ and his bigotry and hatred were fostered by Tzeentch, making him his willing tool to force Magnus to give in an join his forces as his chosen primarch. Tzeentch wasn't going to let Magnus win and escape his clutches and like most fights Magnus has to be overpowered by outside forces to get him to lose his fights.
Damn I never caught that. Very cool detail
magnus is like the flash, the moment him being at full power would instantly win a fight he gets nerfed.
Well, if you read the book, it was said he could annilate the entire fleet with a thought and end it there. Probably not, but he accepted his Legions destruction and didn't participate in 99% of the defense. It was really his own legion that held back the wolves, sisters and custodes combined forces. A very impressive defense if you ask me. Considering the entirety of the battle as a whole, if Magnus took to the field from the start, and not hide away all depressed, I doubt they would have lost. I think Russ would be forced to retreat at the very least.
> Well, if you read the book, it was said he could annilate the entire fleet with a thought and end it there. That one would have been a Magnus + Tzeentch combo with a dire cost attached to it according to McNeill.
Writers bending shit around the throwaway fact of Russ breaking his back.
Overconfidence is a hell of a debuff
Magnus was demolishing Russ. Outside intervention from his wolves and literal luck were how Russ survived. It even described him flailing blindly and he just so happens to hit magnus's eye which is the source of his power. Previous to that Magnus warp-punch Russ so hard his armour exploded into his heart and Russ was on his knees.
magnus was preparing a ritual while fighting russ and russ had his wolves with him and also (its been awhile so i cant remember fully) magnus got flashbanged buy a black lightning bolt which russ took advantage of to slash his other eye, and then shatter his spine and all that. basically russ was losing until that lucky shot on magnus eye
Russ didnt even take advantage of the black lightning, it was pure. He got blinded to and accidently let go of his sword, which just so happpened to fly right into magnus eye.
I think I remember is saying it was a "fateful" strike, and implying that Tzeentch may have nudged the sword into his eye, as obviously he wanted him to lose as well.
gw and that Shakespeare tier writing
Magnus is a big fat whiny emo?
RUSS!
He's so strong he loops around to being guaranteed to lose.
That’s called ennui
Sanguinius was the strongest without the use of Chaos. Lion, Russ, Horus, Magnus and Lorgar considered him as such. Russ called him a "baresark (berserker) in angel's garb". Horus called his prowess "perfect" and the peak of mechanical capability. Horus also noted that Sanguinius' tenacity was such that Ferrus, Mortarion or Angron could be felled with one strike, and Sanguinius did exactly that to him, while mortally wounded. Sanguinius was the strongest physically, without the embrace of the warp Horus was the strongest with Chaos. As the Ascendant Vessel Of Chaos Undivided, Horus was a living, breathing Chaos Warp Gate and an anomaly in space-time. His power even superseded The Emperor's. He could casually break reality. Horus was the strongest a Primarch's ever been, with all the patronage of the Chaos Gods. Magnus had the most potential. Magnus was more of a warp given form than actual living being. He had the most potential out of all his brothers. However, he was also patronized by the god of self-defeats. Because Russ shattered his soul, he could never attain his full potential anymore. Magnus had the most potential with the use of the warp, but his potential never materialized. Corax is arguably the strongest currently. Corax willfully shed his mortal form and took on his warp essence, a raven-esque sapient darkness. He's the only Primarch to fully embrace his "divinity" without the use of Chaos, which makes one lose their "essence". Corax is currently the strongest Primarch, with the help of the Warp, but not Chaos.
>Corax is arguably the strongest currently. >Corax willfully shed his mortal form and took on his warp essence, a raven-esque sapient darkness. He's the only Primarch to fully embrace his "divinity" without the use of Chaos, which makes one lose their "essence". >Corax is currently the strongest Primarch, with the help of the Warp, but not Chaos. We've seen Corax exactly *once*, chasing down Lorgar who is famously weak compared to the primarchs. There's no way anyone can argue he's top-tier now when we know literally nothing about what he's capable of beyond spooking Lorgar.
bottom tier was before deamon primarch, though, so he likely had a good power increase
You would think, but the assessment of Shadow-Corax comes from the short story Shadow of the Past, collected in the anthology "Sons of the Emperor." I really recommend reading that anthology, because it has a number of gut punches. Especially for old lore fogies like me. Anyways, what happened there was Shadow-Corax dueled Daemon Primarch Lorgar and sent him running. Corax almost edged out the win, just like at Istvaan. Bear in mind that this was just after the Heresy, at the beginning of the 10,000 year era of the Imperium. We don't know a lot of what happened to their relative power levels, but we can imagine Lorgar spent the past vacation powering up or that Corax might have gotten old and slightly decrepit like the Lion. We just *don't know.*
I don't think beings so suffused with the Warp age that easily
I really hope they release more of corax soon
Current strongest would be gulliman no?
If we were to scale Guilliman with the martial feats he's done after his resurrection, I'd actually say Lion bests him. I'd say the feats Angron pulled is more impressive/destructive than Mortarion, and while Mortarion killed Guilliman, Lion defeated Angron.
I don't understand how this is still a debate. Sanguinius was arguably the best fighter next to Horus and Lionel. He had enormous psychic power, wings to fly and he could see the future. He was OP and only lost to a Horus on steroids who left the most powerful being of the material plane half dead.
I mean, it makes perfect sense Sanguinous lost to Horus. Sanguinous is so OP he moves at the speed of light. But Horus moves at the speed of Darkness. Can't beat that!
Oh that edge love it
Damn, when you put it like tha- Hey, wait a minute. Dan is that you?!
I just started the books after months of reading and listening to lore stuff. Confuses me a good bit.
Sanguinis in series: Fights a demon prince - kills it Fights boosted Angron - kills him but is impaled by a demonic blade Fights titans - closes the eternity gate (Within one afternoon) Joins the assault on the vengeful spirit despite his festering chest wound. Fights Dreadnoughts - also pries open doors meant to be closed from literally anything Fights Horus - disembowels him, and causes wounds that would be mortal to any other primarch while still being wounded already. Horus has to alter time to catch him and kill him. I doubt that even non-corrupted magnus would stand a chance.
TBH, I'm pretty convinced Sangy just got the Emps "I'm awesome" aura. He has the attitude of the emo kids from South Park and everyone still loves him. His best combat feat is having a laser mounted on a spear and a built in jetpack and every one of his brothers is like "I can't beat him" The Primarchs were reversed as a lot of things on the worlds they grew up on. Sangys people just straight saw him as a GOD.
Nah his record speaks for itself in the siege books, he goes on a huge streak against some of the strongest opponents anyone can face and he wins without any outside help, he's 100% that guy and it takes an ascended Horus to bring him down.
his best combat feat was destroying titans, killing kabanda, killing angron, than putting up a impressive fight against horus back to back with his injuries adding up. Also Konrad with his armor still saw futures where a unarmored sang could kill him.
For Curze is the one to beat. The guy has fought the most primarchs and lived. He fought all the 'good bros' at one point or other at least once? Did he fight Leman?
I don’t think he’s fought Leman, but Leman isn’t sure he’d win against Curze due to his insanity. Source: Wolfsbane.
Especially when you remember that Kurze is prescient and know what the next move will be.
Curze visions aren't some "always on" combat superpower. They can help occasionally, but are mostly random and just as likely to be debilitating.
Surviving isn’t the same as winning, nor is it a requirement. He definitely didn’t beat Vulkan on either occasion they fought.
He did beat Vulkan after he had lost his mind in unremembered empire. If you want to count that.
Admittedly, Curze did kill Vulkan a lot. Several times when they fought on Macragge, Curze killed insane Vulkan. But just as Curze has the distinct genetic advantage of foresight, Vulkan doesn’t have to surrender the battle when he dies. If I recall correctly it only ended when Vulkan was stabbed by John Grammaticus with the Fulgurite
The only way to resolve this is on the tabletop. Time for BrothersBowl apostrophe (thirty thousand and) twenty-four! *(air horn sounds)*
Gotta be a bit more specific than that lol. Can lift the most? Ferrus or Vulcan Militarily? Gulliman with his 500 worlds simply had more people than anyone else In a duel? Sanguinius or Horus were always listed as the top two In a fist fight? Curze or Sanguinius with their future sight Psychic power? Magnus Able to build the strongest fortifications? Dorn or Perterabo Able to withstand the most punishment? Mortarion
For the last one, while I did agree before, I think Jaghatai actually pulled ahead during the Siege.
Sanguinious was OP as fuck
I wasn't really a big fan of Sang until the last few books of the Heresy. He may have overtaken Magnus as my favorite primarch.
Same, he was always a bit too nice and boring until the siege starts, then he runs this incredible gauntlet of super tough enemies and wrecks them all, he even puts up a good fight against Horus despite being half dead. His resolve and determination made me like him.
I never liked Sanguinius. He's a guy who everyone loves, literally an angel, who's also the best fighter and the most compassionate primarch and he's the greatest at everything he tries to do and everyone secretly thinks he should've been warmaster and blah blah blah. He's boring. He's just *dull*.
Youre viewing him the same way in universe people view him, as perfect. He himself viewed his wings as a taint borne from the warp, he was constantly worried about the flaws of his legion becoming known. The perfect appearance was also compensating for his own insecurities in regards to living up to the Emeperors expectations.
He was also incredibly insecure, genetically flawed and had some major issues going on
Yeah, he is, I agree. He’s like John Cena or Captain America. But once the siege starts, it’s like that scene where Cap stares down Thanos army on his own, even if you think Cap is boring like I do, that scene is super hype. Boring old Mary Sue Sanguinius actually fighting an unwinnable battle and refusing to give up, getting way further than he reasonably should have, he even admits he doesn’t want to be here fighting and he still keeps going, it’s…inspiring. Even though he loses, hell, BECAUSE he loses, he won me over.
That whole Horus fight is so good. I also love book in the siege when he defends the gate BY HIMSELF. 🫡 they made him OP but with so many good character flaws that he just works so well in my eyes.
If it was an open battlefield, I’d put it as a fatal four-way between Lion El’Johnson, Sanguinius, Jagahtai Khan, and Leman Russ. Urban combat, it’s Konrad Curze.
Dang, not even a mention of Horus or Dorn?
Ferrus
Primarchs are living tropes. I believe ADB has said "which one will win" is a stupid question and it's about who embodies their values best. It's a universe where stories and emotions influence unreality which influences unreality and primarchs definitelly have abilities beyond their real forms. Theory: They are plot devices with bioalchemical physical presences. They are as strong as they need to be. Magnus can snap a planet out of existence but any primarch who better embodies their values, whose story is ascendent can just shrug off his magic because they are a warp entity with just as much reality warping power of their own. He's just less subtle about it. It's not really "anti psyker powers" they are all warp entities who do stuff beyond what their physical shells are capable of when the plot demands it. Magnus didn't lose to Russ because of Russ' specific power set but because underneath reality another warp entity just as strong as him was there pushing back. At that time, Magnus had brought his story to its nadir after being played like a puppet and making every bad decision. Russ was still quite early in his trip into abysmal failure and idiocy on the other hand.
i like the ascendant narrative concept of primarchs and the warp, its kind of self-evident that things happen because we want/expect them to. gives me this image of 40k as a manifestation of the collective subconcious of 40k fans and the authors as the gods moving the chess pieces around a board.
Have you read Omniscient Reader's Viewpoint by any chance? The core of the story is somewhat similar. In it everything revolves around stories, a character's power is determined by the value of their story and how much it can resonate with others. There's even cases where some stories are weaker against others, allowing weak stories with favourable matchups to beat stronger ones.
This is pretty much all but actually confirmed in the lore, and we see evidence of it all. The. Time. Hell, in the Lion novel (the GC era one), The Lion gets hit with a psychic attack that *should* have damaged him severely, but he shrugs it off because the one who cast it was *not important enough*
The most underrated mf khan and the brightest one sanguinius
Strongest as best in combat? Sanguinius and Horus is always mentioned to be at the very top by their brothers, as is the lion. Russ is very often mentioned. Believe it or not, Angron is also up there. Curze duo to his insanity and foresight. Mortarion and Corax are also great, I’d put them below the others mentioned. Magnus, obviously, might just be the strongest… depending on the writer. The Khan is also insane in combat from what we saw of him. Fulgrim was insanely skilled with a sword… Vulkan can’t die, but that’s kinda boring and he’s not at the top in terms of skill. That’s a lot of names mentioned, and it really is up to interpretation. If I had to rank them personally with everything we’ve heard from each primarch and what we saw of them all uncorrupted / without aid from chaos: #1 Magnus. Being physically very weak, he’s here because of him being the 2nd strongest psycher in the galaxy and because of that he’s forced to be here. #2 Sanguinius. Foresight, insane speed, red thirst, flight and how many insane feats of skill. #3 & #4 Horus / Lion I don’t want to put Horus here, but he is really always mentioned by his brothers, you really can’t ignore him. The Lion is the same. I’d accept seeing Curze taking someones place here, but I’d place him as #5. really hard to list them precisely. Actual physically strongest? #1 Ferrus, #2 Vulkan and idk who the third strongest would be, perhaps Mortarion or Angron?
The Lion isn't really always mentioned to be at the top by his brothers. There's very little during the series in terms of his brothers thoughts, though it can get lost in large number of online fanboys exaggerating everything. Or Horus either really, at least in regard to fighting prowess specifically; praise for Horus is usually related to overall leadership. The main reference of Lion's fighting is from Astartes characters, or Crusade where the historian talks about how he could wield a blade as well as Fulgrim (not better), but it's no word of god source. Sanguinius and have the most of it for fighting prowess but even there it's only a small number of other primarchs who actually voice an opinion on it (Corax, Lorgar, Russ). A lot of the sanguinius praise is, like with Horus, more so about his overall persona....the most inspiring figurehead, the kindest nature, etc..
I mean, multiple Primarchs have praised Horus for his fighting prowess explicitly many times, not just his leadership.
Horus: "The Lion is among the greatest of us, brother. There are few who can best him in combat." Guilliman: “None can question the Lion's abilities as a warrior. He is one of the most formidable among us.” Guilliman: "The Lion's tactical acumen and battlefield prowess are second to none. He is a paragon of martial excellence." Sanguinius: “Lion El'Jonson is a peerless warrior, his blade cuts as true as any. He is one of the best among us.” Curze: “Lion El'Jonson fights with a cold precision that is almost machine-like. In battle, he is relentless and unmatched.” Fulgrim: “The Lion’s mastery of the blade is something to behold. His form and technique are flawless, rivaling even my own.” i was looking for another quote from Fulgrim, I read a better one where he described the lions strength in combat, but I can't remember which book I read it in. Vulkan: "The Lion fights with a fire and determination that few can match. His strength and skill are a testament to his greatness." Mortarion: "The Lion is relentless in battle, his strength and determination are nearly unmatched." Angron: "For all his coldness, the Lion is a warrior without equal. His skill with a blade is something even I can respect." I remember Russ mention him as one of the best warriors, though he did not mention him when talking about who he would have difficulty beating, so there's that. Russ mentioned Horus, Sanguinius and I believe he also mentioned Curze if I remember correctly, as the ones he wasn't sure if he could beat. I'd take it as Russ putting the Lion at his level or right below, so not a point for my statement, I'll mention it anyway. Malcador: "The Lion is among the finest warriors the Imperium has ever seen. His ability to lead and his combat skills are exemplary" While not a primarch, I take Malcadors words to be worth more than ANY primarch, in my opinion. Dorn: “In the art of war, the Lion stands unmatched. His strategies and combat skills are a testament to his title as the first.” "He is a warrior of unparalleled skill." - idk if it was Alpharius or Omegon. Touche. Yes, the Lion was as everyone knows, seen as one of the absolutely best generals, only Horus was on his level in that sense, but as a warrior he has definitely been mentioned a lot of times and not just from astartes or historians, although, they have also mentioned the Lion. Though I would admit, there aren't many who specifically says that he is the greatest warrior. But that is not what I claimed either, nor do I think he is above Sanguinius or Magnus - but without question at the very top after the said few. I don't remember the emperor talking about the lion as one of the greatest fighters however, but I don't remember him mentioning who he thinks is the best fighter in general, so I may have missed or forgotten it at least.
can you provide sources and page numbers for these? I don't remember any of them, and even allowing for the obvious chance of forgetting a few during reading such a sprawling series, i just ran a prose search check on all the ebooks i have (which is a big chunk of the series plus the black books) and there's nothing matching them.
Curze or Angron.
Magnus. I just don't see him losing a fight to the death with another primarch before the chaos gods injected warp juice in a few of them. I am not sure he put everything in his fight with the Wolf on Prospero.
*This was a battle fought on every level: physical, mental and spiritual, with each primarch bending every ounce of their almost limitless power to the other’s destruction.* ~ **A Thousand Sons**
Magnus is so ridiculously strong that the authors keep hitting him with the idiot stick so he doesn't roflstomp everything he goes up against.
I mean he's powerful but not invincible and fighting the anti-magic demi-god in a fist fight wasn't a favourable matchup.
Magnus is the most powerful in terms of psychic strength second only to The Emperor himself however there are two factors that make me discount him as the strongest. Firstly The Lion says during his fight with all his brothers in his recent 40k era book that the apparition hit far harder than Magnus ever did, his exact words were “Now I know you are a fraud. Magnus never hit that hard.” Secondly, during the Siege of Terra, Magnus meets Vulkan twice and each time Vulkan absolutely stomps him. Yes Vulkan is a perpetual and resurrects after death but if anything that just levels the playing field with him and Magnus’ psychic power. In fact Vulkan is so much stronger than Magnus that in their final fight Magnus uses a spell to atomically unmake Vulkan, a spell that Magnus himself was quite impressed he was able to do, and Vulkan still landed a killing blow with his hammer even as his entire body turned to ash around him. Later after Magnus has been banished, Malcador sees a vision of an unfleshed husk slowly trudging back towards the webway gate in the throne room, Vulkan was still regenerating from something that reduced him to nothing. Additionally, in an earlier book we do hear Vulkan himself say that he would always hold back and pull his punches when sparring with his brothers for fear of hurting them. I am admittedly a little biased as Vulkan is my favourite primarch but it is for the following reason; when The Emperor speaks to Vulkan on Nocturne after their competition, he says that Vulkan’s was “utterly unlike” his brothers and his humanity was both his greatest trait and The Emperor’s greatest achievement. Whether it is a deliberate design by The Emperor to make the most human Primarch undying and thereby make humanity as a concept undying is up for debate but it is a rather poetic coincidence if not.
I think Vulkan often gets underestimated a lot in these discussions, even without taking into account his regen ability, but tbf to Magnus, i wouldn't say Vulkan had it easy in either of those fights. The first one was evenly contested until Magnus seemed to have subdued him and lined up a killing blow with his telekinesis, which one of Vulkan's drakswaard jumps in front of at the last second. Vulkan takes advantage of that to close the distance and pummel him, which results in Magnus giving in to Tzeentch to avoid death. In the second fight before he lost, he killed Vulkan over and over to the extent it got pretty damn stupid imo.
I agree that neither fight was easy but I don’t think that it’s fair to say that if you don’t count his regen ability, because it’s like not counting Magnus’ psychic ability. Ever since he escaped his cell on Macragge his regen ability is part of how he fights. Curze killed him and threw him off a building once and he was alive again before he hit the ground. Vulkan lives, so does humanity, undying forever.
Curze. My boy could see the future, went toe-to-toe with The Lion (who I think we can all agree is a top 5 martial Primarch), almost “killed” Vulkan, survived a 2v1 duel against The Lion and G-Man, and almost killed Sanguinius.
Honestly, Sanguinius was the strongest Primarch pre Horus’ fall to darkness. He had the golden combo to victory. Flight, psyker powers off the charts and tremendous battle skill. He only lost to Horus because Horus was infused with so much warp power from the chaos gods. Russ is the second because he was the Executioner and he was able to duel and almost beat a Chaos infused Horus pre Siege and take down a psychic Magnus during The Razing of Prospero even though he got one of his hearts punched out of his chest. Honestly, Russ should’ve put Curze down like a dog after he blew up Nostramo. For those who mention the Angron fight, Russ wasn’t trying to kill Angron, he was trying to corral him and rein him in. If he’d wanted to, pre Daemon Angron would’ve died, though not easily.
Russ lost to Lion, as did Kurze. But Power scaling is not working with the primarchs. Each one can beat any of the others if the situation (plot) demands it. Except horus on Chaos Juice.
Russ lost to the Lion cause mid way through he lost concentration and started laughing about how stupid they were to be fighting. Though you’re not wrong about the Primarchs and the plot.
Nah that was after the lion hesitated to kill him. Russ lost the duel when he lost his weapon and the Lion didnt push further. The laughing at the end is after the fight was already decided and the brawl concluded.
Yes, but still neither was fighting to kill and Russ is the anti-psyker Primarch. He himself admits that he’s sparred with all of his brothers and knows he could kill them all, except only with Horus he was hesitant to fight him.
Russ is an unreliable Narrator. Additionally when he speaks about those who bested him he only mentions Emps/Allfather and "there was another" speaking about the Lion. The Lion is no psyker in the traditional sense. He is just a damn good duelist. So good that he can foil Curzes foresight. I know theres a lot of Fan wank surrounding him and he has his flaws, but excluding sanguinus and Chaos juiced horus, he is the best duelist there is. Even Chaos calls him the duelist. That has to count for something.
It does, but Russ shouldn’t be discounted as a huge threat just because there were circumstances surrounding all of his fights.
He is a big threat and a good fighter. But his personal track record? Got his ass handed to him by Horus, got beaten by the Lion in a fair duel (no circumstances there), the duel between him and angron was a loss as well except the "i beat you since i got you surrounded". He is gloating a lot for someone who lost most of his fights.
He did manage to destroy Magnus, who is literally the magic boy out of all of their brothers in a fair fight.
Well yes. But magnus is in a weird spot. He is way too strong lore wise to even put him in one League with all of them. Im not discounting that russ is a capable fighter. Maybe even top tier. But his own assumptions were disproven and so its time for show dont tell.
Curze doesn't have combat precog that he can always rely on, this is something that Lion fanboys made up/misinterpreted to pump up their guy and is a common misconception. It can help occasionally, but other than going into overdrive that one time against Sanguinius, which was meant to show an unusual occurrence in the way their precog capabilities reacted specifically to each other, he mostly he gets random visions that can be more debilitating than helpful in the moment. Also Chaos doesn't call him the duelist, not as some "yeah he's the best fighter among the primarchs" comment. It was Ingethal getting pissed at khorne breaking the deal the four gods had supposedly made and sending An'ggrath against Lorgar. As lorgar gets ready to fight him, she panics and talks about how he won't win as he's not a martial being like his brothers, then compares him to some, along with a trait related to them....He's not the brawler russ is, not the killer Curze is, not the duelist Lion is and so on It's not supposed to be elevating one over the others, just pointing out how Lorgar isn't as capable as any of them...but he then goes on to prove her wrong by beating An'ggrath anyway.
Well i had Pharos in mind to be honest. I know that curze doesnt show his precog in the other duels. I agree that ingethel uses it to discourage lorgar from risking his life but at the same time the nicknames are far from random. Russ the brawler, Dorn the soldier etc all draw on their personalities. To call the Lion the duelist seems deliberate as they couldve chosen any other nickname to describe him. But as always the only constant is inconsistency.
It is deliberate and is a reference to Lion's knightly background in the order and him being a swordsman. If Khan or Fulgrim had been mentioned they'd probably be described as something along the lines of the fencer/the blade artist etc, it's the same thing really. just saying that doesn't automatically translate to better at fighting overall.
Khan gets mentioned as the warrior. Most if not all of them are "swordsmen". Fulgrim should be called the peacock. It doesnt necessarily elevate him over everyone else but its an interesting tidbit. I guess we need to wait for new lore, which shows the lion fighting. All we have in 40k is him stomping traitors while lamenting how slow he is. Well and aoo in which he fights angron but thats down to tactics (everything else would be absurd though).
We don't know much about the actual fight to say that Russ wasn't trying to kill Angron. In fact, Russ started the fight because he allowed Angron's words to get to him, with this in mind, we could easily say that Russ was trying to kill Angron and it wasn't until both Primarchs saw that The Space Wolves came to Russ's aid where you can argue that Russ could have killed Angron (through his men's bolters) and even then, I also believe that it's said that Angron had russ on his back so at the very least it'd have ended with both primarchs dying
It wouldn't make sense narratively if it wasn't Horus
Horus wasn't the best fighter, he was simply the best to lead the crusade per the Big E. Horus only became the strongest after the Chaos Gods gave him powers. OP is talking about before.
I'd assume Leman Russ in terms of pure combat power. Next choices for me would be Sanguinius and Konrad Curze.
Sanguinius is the only primarch Russ talks about not wanting to face in battle.
id put the khagan up there to
I mean, Lion survived years as a wild child in the forest, killing giant monsters with his bare hands. That count for something, I think.
He is not the only primarch who did that. Hell, practically as soon as Ferrus came out of the pod he had to fight a presumed necron construct and killed it by drowning it in lava.
What do you mean by strongest? In battle Russ, Sanguinius, Konrad Kurze and Angron would be the prime picks. Naturally Corax, Horus and Lion would also be in the mix. In terms of legion versus legion combat effectiveness, probably the Ultramarines would win 1v1. Although the Space wolves were the natural legion exterminators. In general, each primarch embodies an aspect of the Emperor and is a specialist. So all are the strongest in their specific field.
Magnus was already flirting with Tzeentch at the earliest days of the Great Crusade. He made a deal to stop the flesh change in those days with an entity he knew was powerful, just not what it was in totality. He overestimated his abilities in the face of the embodiment of magic.
Sanguinius purely for all the comic book-y stupid shit he got up to in the siege, and not to mention fighting kabhanda 3 times over the course of the heresy
I think it depends on when and where they were at the time. Pre-Heresy, going by the rules from the Horus Heresy tabletop game, Magnus had the most power if he was lucky. A lucky roll could push his psychic powers up into a disgustingly powerful, Titan killing Destroyer hit, though this wasn't reliable. Russ has the most raw physical power, Horus coming in second, and Morty being the most resillient.
I think its hard too say, they all had their unique styles. In theory I'd say Magnus' Magic gives him an edge, but he was probably not as good in melee as others. Lorgar and Mortarion both weren't using any of their psychic skills, Lorgar wasn't aware of them yet and Moetarion hated and repressed them. I think most primarchs agreed on Sanguinius being the strongest/best fighter amongst all of them though
Out of the good guys, or all of them? Because Horus is presented as a Luciferian first-among-equals Dad’s favourite type, no?
physical strength VULKAN psyker strength MAGNUS fighting strength SANGUINIUS
Depends really on how you measure it, Magnus would have been strongest due to his sheer physic power, if you take physic powers off the table he tumbles down the ranking with Vulkan holding the top for physical strength and the lion for tactical skill. If you’re looking at overall package then it changes again but gets more nuanced. As to those wondering why Angron gets ranked low, it’s due to the butchers nails giving him a massive handicap to be exploited and everyone clings to fact he was the only Primarch to fail to even come close to conquering his world and was going to die.
If we are talking about raw physical strength than it's Ferrus, Vulkan and Mortarion.
Either Sanguinius or Magnus. Sanguinius had the greatest martial prowess and Magnus had his immense psychic abilities.
Vulkan, with a "K", not the ancient Roman god Vulcan describes himself as physically the strongest and most capable fighter amongst his brothers. That no one would ever really see that side of him because he'd never let anyone see him lose that much control of himself. I don't know whether we, the audience, should actually believe that though. I think the genuine answer is Magnus and Sanguinius. If anyone was ever going to match anyone or be able to kill their sibling, it's Sanguinius.
Baseline Sanguinis stood toe to toe with a peek boosted Horus for long enough to make Horus mad. This was while bearing a festering chest wound from Angron's infected sword. I feel like it is Sanguinis by a wide margin.
Seems to be the consensus overall.
Horus cruelly allowed him to do that, he could have killed him instantly but still initially wanted to give him a chance to join him. As soon as he realised Sanguinius was truly committed and actually decided to use any of those boosts he ended the fight.
Depends on how you're defining strength. Raw physical strength, Vulcan or Manus. Durability, Vulcan. Literally cannot die. Psychic ability, Magnus. Fighting skill, Sanguinius? Lion?
Fulgrim beat Mr. Hands twice as a mortal. Turns out incessant peacocking doesn't actually subtract from your skills as a duelist. Angron's up there too. As for the usually argued "best", Leman's only win was against a suicidally depressed Magnus and he got beat by Horus, the Lion, and Angron. Sangys best feat is killing a titan, something at least two other brothers have done and literally any could have with his spear and a jetpack. Kurze has great showings, but mostly by the one author who decided being a psycher was spidy sense. Magnus is actually the most powerful though. Massive psycher hacks are a pretty insta win. Vulkan only beats him because he's fully juiced up and regenerates like Wolverine by the end of the Hersey.
>Fulgrim beat Mr. Hands twice as a mortal He won the first time under really abnormal circumstances. I don't think there's ever been a more prime example of being emotionally ambushed then when Ferrus learned what his closest brother was doing and wanted him to do. Plus, while Fulgrim was winning, Ferrus was the one to bring the battle to an end by blowing up Flameblade like a florescent tube and temporarily stunning them both. The second time at the DSM Ferrus was straight up winning, disarming Fulgrim and putting him on his ass, before the Keeper of Secrets in the Laer Blade intervened and juiced Fulgrim, so pre-Chaos they're closer to 1-1. I'd also argue Ferrus' strength is more honed against anti-large and monstrous enemies from his time on Medusa, so going toe-to-toe with a duelist is impressive in his own right in displaying versatility.
I thought Russ fucked up Horus in Wolfsbane and only lost because he had a split second of hesitation
Russ was able to bait Horus into trading blows and got shanked with his claws but he was able to pierce Horus in the chest and could’ve killed him if he followed through on it, but gave Horus a second chance which didn’t work. The fight was in Horus’ favor but Russ is a brawler and extremely good at trading blows.
If i remember correctly, Russ lost cause he thought the old horus came back after he stabbed him
Russ was entirely on the defensive but only needed to land one hit with the uber-spear for its powers to kick in. Horus doesn't know the capabilities of the spear, so Russ sets the hit up by getting shanked, then stabbing Horus while he thinks he's in a position to gloat over his badly injured foe. It's an odd fight as Guy Haley completely forgets that Horus is also hugely powerful psyker by this point and just has him be basically a physically juiced primarch +3 strength and speed build. After landing the spear, which befuddles Horus and temporarily shows him the truth about Chaos intentions, Russ doesn't take the chance to kill him, instead trying to convince him to throw off the yoke. Asshole Horus tells him he'd be rebelling anyway, Chaos or no Chaos, and proceeds to beat him to a pulp until enough of the Wolves pile in and distract him so the rest can get Russ to safety and off the ship. it's not a Russ vs Horus fair fight scenario and more about the spear being something that gives a normal primarch a small chance against what Horus has become. Whatever primarch is wielding the spear isn't that important. Horus not knowing what it is and being overconfident is the key.
Yeah he lost.
Sangy killed titans, killed kabanda and angron back to back, brought horus to his knees, but yeah i agree magnus definetly the most powerful, providing he isnt depressed
Sangy killed ~~a titan. One~~ a couple of titans. By flying onto its back, shoving a laser power spear through its neck into the cockpit, and firing the spear. That's it. Literally any of his brothers could do this with a jetpack and that spear. All the Primarchs can rip through greater daemons like they're cannon fodder at this point. Even Bobby and Lorgar can solo them lol Edit: I'm not counting the one he boarded with a company and thunder hawk fire support as a kill for Sangy. Edit: I stand corrected Sanggy has killed a few
also wat other primarch took down a titan beside lorgar and sang?
Magnus. And again, Sangy took down a titan because he happens to have wings and a spear that shoots lasers. It wasn't a feat of skill. He flew up to it, put his spear through its neck, and discharged the laser into the cockpit.
Ur 1st post said sangs best feat was just killing a titan, I'm saying his best feat was killing a titan, kabanda, angron, and bringing Horus to his knees, especially the last 2 as he carried the wounds he got from angron to his fight with horus. Also if u don't mind do u know what book Magnus did that? I don't think I read it
That's not a single feat it's multiple feats although yes he was still wounded when he fought Horus so there's a caveat on the L. A thousand sons I think. He also kills a gargant in older stuff but I can't remember which book that snippet is from.
Fair enough there like 60 books in HH
Sanguinius killed the Emperor Titan Axis Mundi in *Titandeath*. He killed a Warlord Titan in *Saturnine*. He killed the Reaver Titan Daughter Of Torment in *Echoes Of Eternity*. He killed a Warhound Titan in *TEATDII*. He also killed an Eldar Titan.
>Axis Mundi in Titandeath. Already said I'm not counting the one he boarded with a company of marines and heavy fire support. >Warlord Titan in Saturnine. Covered. Laser spear did 49% of the work, wings did another 49% of the work. Sangy gets 2% credit. >Daughter Of Torment in Echoes Of Eternity. Legit forgot that one. Bumped Sangys score although I'm annoyed at how easy this feat was. Did the titan even fight back? >an Eldar Titan. I forgot this one deliberately. One of the most painful examples of powercreep and Primarch wank by GW. Not the titan kill itself, Sanggy just gets to tank a psilance afterwards because he's the golden hawk boi.
>Already said I'm not counting the one he boarded with a company of marines and heavy fire support. Agreed with your point, but without Sanguinius the Sanguinary Guard would've likely done jackshit. >Covered. Laser spear did 49% of the work, wings did another 49% of the work. Sangy gets 2% credit. I mean, the laser spear and wings are Sangy's tho. It's like saying Sangy won the fight because he had a body and a weapon. It's f'n moot. >Legit forgot that one. Bumped Sangys score although I'm annoyed at how easy this feat was. Did the titan even fight back? The titan was retreating back and Sanguinius speedblitzed it. This shouldn't lower the score however, because Reavers are smaller than Warhounds and he already demonstrated how Warhounds stack against him in actual combat. >I forgot this one deliberately. One of the most painful examples of powercreep and Primarch wank by GW. Not the titan kill itself, Sanggy just gets to tank a psilance afterwards because he's the golden hawk boi. Yeah. I absolutely agree with this, and my favourite character is Sanguinius. This is such a powerwank that appears out of nowhere and disappears immediately, never to be brought up again. While I do believe Sanguinius could defeat the titan, as he does so with the Emperor and Warhound, he should struggle much more, and he should've avoided the psilance all together.
still killed angron and brought horus to his knees, despite his injuries and lack of rest, i was more arguing that him doing all those things back to back is his best feat, unless u count the futures where a armored konrad saw a unarmored sang kill him
Last I saw of BigRed, he was screaming into the web way, after being curb stomped by Papa Smurf. A couple blanks and even his demonic "gifts" aren't enough to call him powerful.
You might want to go reread that fight. Magnus was winning to the point Bobby was considering just laying down and dying in a pile of bubble. Then Magnus got jumped by 2 squads of SoS and while unable to use his powers and suffering the pain of being a warp creature near them Bobby managed the incredible feat of landing one solid blow. Magnus psyslapped him so hard afterwards that Birdman staggered back from the recoil and into a webway gate which the Eldar closed.
Magnus laid a good trap, granted. And Bobby G walked through it and survived and completed his goal. Magnus was unable to stop him. Outnumbered and exhausted and ambushed, Bobby prevailed over Magnus. As Guilliman said to Magnus, " maybe the gifts from your new masters aren't so powerful ". I'd score it a win for Bobby.
Less prevailed and more got saved by the SoS and Elves.
I don't get why that somehow doesn't count as a fair fight and getting empowered by chaos gods does. Neither is using their own strength alone.
Sanguinius beat demon Angron and Ka’Bandha and put up an incredibly good showing against demon Horus. Him beating a titan was cool but seemed to be well within his comfort zone.
I mean, so's the Lion, Perty, and a company of Grey Knights. Ka'Banda beat him once, lost the second round, and was weak and ignoring him in the third. Beating GDs isn't a significant challenge for the Primarchs. Even Lorgar can solo Angrath the Unbound. Which part was the good showing? The part where Horus wasn't trying, or the part where Horus folded him like a towel? Horus literally ended that fight in two blows once he decided he was done.
.Magnus,vulcan perty and bird man
The strongest in raw strength is Vulcan. When Vulkan and Kurze fight in the "It's also a hammer" battle Vulkan reveals to him that Vulkan always pulled his punches when training with all the other primarchs. I think Kurze then laughs about it being a bluff or something, and then Vulkan grabs him, ragdolls him, smashes him against a force shield or whatever until it breaks from sheer strength. Then the "It's also a hammer" moment occurs. Powerscalling wise? eeeeh, its a bit meaningless to try to measure them in general, so comparing them when each is found power wise is a bit of a conundrum. Fulgrim and Lorgar would be too weak, as they scale better as the crusade goes on. Corax would be weaker too, as he spends a lot of time training with Emps, so it depends on how much he mastered his "banishing" powers before Emps. Magnus would probably be weaker than during the heresy, so I guess early Russ could take early Magnus. Angron is supposed to grow weaker as the crusade goes on, as when people say the nails are killing him... well, the nails actually ARE killing him. His daemonic ascension is Lorgars attempt at saving his life. So, Angron would be at his peak when he is found, but also terribly depressed. My bet keeping it simple would be Russ or the Lion. EDIT: And Sanguinius of course, forgot about him for a moment lol
It's not rule 4, yes? Coz we can't live without stupid questions about primarchs
Umm what do you mean by "without the influence of Chaos"? Because psychic abilities come from the warp, which is Chaos Curze and Sanguinius' precognition is most likely based in psychic abilities and chaos Hell all of what makes Sanguinius so special is because he's more mutated than everyone else, so lotta chaos.
The strongest primarch is always Vulcan. He can't be defeated, he'll just come back until he beats you. Like playing tennis against a wall bro..fucken relentless