yoo little bit of context thats important:
Auto attack use "Edge to Edge" range calculation while most point-and-click abilities (like Panethons W) uses "Center to Center" range calculation.
Ashes 600 auto range is not the same as pantheons 600 W range.
If you want to make them comparable youd have to either add the unit radius of Ashe and Pantheon to Ashe's range or substract them from Pantheons range. The unit radius is \~60 in most cases, so using 120 or 125 is good enough to approximate comparable ranges.
using this information it looks slightely better for our lovely ADCs, since Ashe has technically 720 range for pantheons 600. or Ashe has 600 range and Pantheons W only 480.
there is a bit more nuance to this than it appears at first glance., but its also important to contextualize this difference beyond just acknowledging its existance. 120 difference in range seems kind of big, RFC gives 150 after all, but then again its what Panetheon can cross is 0.3 seconds.
Is it a difference? Yes. Massive? No.
I wanted to clarify this because its important to have a solid factual basis for discussions, otherwise Riot or the main sub will point at this difference in range calculation and say "HA! WRONG!" rather than discussing the mobility issue and its effect on the playability of marksmen.
Honestly while I know about the edge to edge // center to center shenanigans that this game had, I never knew that AAs were of the first kind.
That's pretty neat, but if we really get technical, we can add more little factors like movement speed, where every ranged champion is dealt with the short hand so melees have an easier time closing the distance for their point and click dashes
yee as i said, its a difference but not a massive one. Pantheon with 360MS closes this tiny gap in 0.3 seconds which can be the time it takes you to stop and auto once
What about the fact that, while the adc is stuck in the attack animation(especially early game) they can close the gap by just walking?
I think it more than evens out the center to center thing
When the five roles became cemented into conventional meta, damage, specifically a high rate of sustained damage, was much harder to come by. This necessitated one of the five roles to build only damage items, the Attack Damage Carry. Back then, only the ADC built enough damage to wear down towers and tanks in a useful amount of time. This meant that if a team needed towers toppled and enemy tanks busted, they needed the ADC.
However, with how everyone and their dog now have more damage than they know what to do with half the time, The relevance of the ADC is not even a shadow of what it once was.
If you noticed they stopped saying adc and are trying to force the use of marksman instead. Adc has been outdated for a long time, and became mainly so during the durability update. I called that my favorite (only) roll would be hit hard from it because they didn’t tweak attack damage to even come close to matching the update. It’s sad to see
Cheers for the history lessons, it kinda shows how overlooked the role is by riot if the term is so archaic that the name is no longer even relevant to the current role.
Unless that's an upcoming buff, no, he can still miss primary target. They increased missile speed, but like Janna can just decide not to get shot (or anyone else with a dash, higher than usual movement speed, or whatever).
Not just about the range, Quinn's auto range is less than Jax Q range but she's favored in the matchup because she can cancel his leapstrike with vault and reset the spacing to where she has the advantage. Gotta look at the kiting tools you have access to, not just the range, sometimes you just default lose the 1v1 though so you've got to think of your team mates as kiting tools.
That's not even the problem.
The real problem is that there are many more champions that have insane gapclosers than before when range was actually a much better advantage:
Yone
Vex
Briar
Camille
Rammus R
Tham kench
Kayn
A.sol
Well... basically mobility creep, everyone know about this.
That's why range isn't that much of an advantage nowadays.
A lot of marksmen have some kind of range steroid in their kit (e.g. Twitch, Jinx, Kog) or they have low range but a way to otherwise kite back or outplay a melee champ dashing onto them (e.g. Vayne, Xayah, Sivir).
Also worth noting that Shen and Sylas dashes are skillshots that you can sidestep.
>range is supposed to be an advantage
It is - you can hit enemy frontline but melee champs have to go through your frontline to reach you. They can't just ignore your frontline and jump straight on top of you. Of course it's different if you have no frontline but then all mid range champs are at a disadvantage and only the extremely high range champs (e.g. AP Kai'Sa or Corki) can deal their damage consistently.
man if only sylas didnt have 3 dashes and a slow with execute and heal and the ability to steal your engages's ultimate which make him even stronger while you do potato damage to him because for some reason an ap assassin builds like a fighter and get hp from items /jk
Yo it's also important to remember ADCs can walk and some can dash too. Kinda like positioning is a thing every champ has to do. Also, jax always been in the game and is very balanced.
Well Range is an advantage and if jax or Pantheon can jump on you with none of your Team near you you have not paid enough attention and were mispositioned. If the catch you alone on a side lane your fault if you push further than you turret and Teammates safe zone without enough Vision your fault.
Your Job is to stay out of the team Fights as long as possible Till the kills are on CD and then Start attacking. If you see Pantheon or jax jump on one of your Teammates that should be in Front of you and use their e congratulations you can Start attacking them and back in away to the safe zone when his skills are up again. And guess what that is a lot easier if you have Range that is close or more than his. A brusier can not escape jax q Range as ez as a Ranged champion.
And if those Champions would not have any dashes or higher movement speed you could kite them with Red buff Till infinty without any counterplay for them. They would just die if kited properly before they even reach the adc. And all the other roles would cry because there is no counterplay to the undodgable (except jax, shen..) damage the adc does from a Range that can not be gapped.
Wait for those champions to use their one mobility spell then ! You can choose to go ham on them or maybe even outright walk past them and attack the higher priority enemies
Or pick a champion who has abilities they can use during the meantime
Hell no, im the ad CARRY and have to be the best Player in the Team....
Yes youre right. If you csnt even think a second and decide to wait Till they used their dash before starting a fight, you deserve to lose.
Imagine adc are allowed to Auto attack all the time without having to be careful not to overextend or going in too much. You would be just completely unable to reach them. This would mean any adc is an auto win against any melee champ. Does this Sound fair? I think not. Thats the trade: you can delete people with 2 to 4 Autos, but watch your goddamn step.
You don't delete people with 2-4 aa xD
Also people can just keep their dashes? + Dashes have relatively low cd.
What's worse, keeping your pantheon W or making one person not join a fight by just existing?
Exactly, you can turn a fight 5vs4 by just not using one of your abilities.
yoo little bit of context thats important: Auto attack use "Edge to Edge" range calculation while most point-and-click abilities (like Panethons W) uses "Center to Center" range calculation. Ashes 600 auto range is not the same as pantheons 600 W range. If you want to make them comparable youd have to either add the unit radius of Ashe and Pantheon to Ashe's range or substract them from Pantheons range. The unit radius is \~60 in most cases, so using 120 or 125 is good enough to approximate comparable ranges. using this information it looks slightely better for our lovely ADCs, since Ashe has technically 720 range for pantheons 600. or Ashe has 600 range and Pantheons W only 480. there is a bit more nuance to this than it appears at first glance., but its also important to contextualize this difference beyond just acknowledging its existance. 120 difference in range seems kind of big, RFC gives 150 after all, but then again its what Panetheon can cross is 0.3 seconds. Is it a difference? Yes. Massive? No. I wanted to clarify this because its important to have a solid factual basis for discussions, otherwise Riot or the main sub will point at this difference in range calculation and say "HA! WRONG!" rather than discussing the mobility issue and its effect on the playability of marksmen.
Honestly while I know about the edge to edge // center to center shenanigans that this game had, I never knew that AAs were of the first kind. That's pretty neat, but if we really get technical, we can add more little factors like movement speed, where every ranged champion is dealt with the short hand so melees have an easier time closing the distance for their point and click dashes
yee as i said, its a difference but not a massive one. Pantheon with 360MS closes this tiny gap in 0.3 seconds which can be the time it takes you to stop and auto once
Thanks for the info
What about the fact that, while the adc is stuck in the attack animation(especially early game) they can close the gap by just walking? I think it more than evens out the center to center thing
Breaking News: ADC isnt a carry role its just a damage support
I love this comment so much, its just straight fact
Doesn't adc stand for attack damage carry? Why tf is carry in the name then? Genuinely asking
When the five roles became cemented into conventional meta, damage, specifically a high rate of sustained damage, was much harder to come by. This necessitated one of the five roles to build only damage items, the Attack Damage Carry. Back then, only the ADC built enough damage to wear down towers and tanks in a useful amount of time. This meant that if a team needed towers toppled and enemy tanks busted, they needed the ADC. However, with how everyone and their dog now have more damage than they know what to do with half the time, The relevance of the ADC is not even a shadow of what it once was.
Thanks so much for the lore kind sir.
ads; attack damage squishy
WGB, walking gold bag
If you noticed they stopped saying adc and are trying to force the use of marksman instead. Adc has been outdated for a long time, and became mainly so during the durability update. I called that my favorite (only) roll would be hit hard from it because they didn’t tweak attack damage to even come close to matching the update. It’s sad to see
Cheers for the history lessons, it kinda shows how overlooked the role is by riot if the term is so archaic that the name is no longer even relevant to the current role.
Aphe with calibrum 650. Kogmaw 710 with w. Twitch 850 with r.
850 with r and gets the ability to miss autos
Not anymore, they fixed twitch ult to not miss the main target (which is a massive buff imo)
Unless that's an upcoming buff, no, he can still miss primary target. They increased missile speed, but like Janna can just decide not to get shot (or anyone else with a dash, higher than usual movement speed, or whatever).
they just buffed projectile speed by 1000. he still misses.
Not just about the range, Quinn's auto range is less than Jax Q range but she's favored in the matchup because she can cancel his leapstrike with vault and reset the spacing to where she has the advantage. Gotta look at the kiting tools you have access to, not just the range, sometimes you just default lose the 1v1 though so you've got to think of your team mates as kiting tools.
Wdym I can't 1v1 a 3 items Jax as Ashe?
That's not even the problem. The real problem is that there are many more champions that have insane gapclosers than before when range was actually a much better advantage: Yone Vex Briar Camille Rammus R Tham kench Kayn A.sol Well... basically mobility creep, everyone know about this. That's why range isn't that much of an advantage nowadays.
A lot of marksmen have some kind of range steroid in their kit (e.g. Twitch, Jinx, Kog) or they have low range but a way to otherwise kite back or outplay a melee champ dashing onto them (e.g. Vayne, Xayah, Sivir). Also worth noting that Shen and Sylas dashes are skillshots that you can sidestep. >range is supposed to be an advantage It is - you can hit enemy frontline but melee champs have to go through your frontline to reach you. They can't just ignore your frontline and jump straight on top of you. Of course it's different if you have no frontline but then all mid range champs are at a disadvantage and only the extremely high range champs (e.g. AP Kai'Sa or Corki) can deal their damage consistently.
man if only sylas didnt have 3 dashes and a slow with execute and heal and the ability to steal your engages's ultimate which make him even stronger while you do potato damage to him because for some reason an ap assassin builds like a fighter and get hp from items /jk
I mean, Jax has had that dash for 12 years now. They should really get on that. Idk how riot overlooked this.
Yo it's also important to remember ADCs can walk and some can dash too. Kinda like positioning is a thing every champ has to do. Also, jax always been in the game and is very balanced.
Well Range is an advantage and if jax or Pantheon can jump on you with none of your Team near you you have not paid enough attention and were mispositioned. If the catch you alone on a side lane your fault if you push further than you turret and Teammates safe zone without enough Vision your fault. Your Job is to stay out of the team Fights as long as possible Till the kills are on CD and then Start attacking. If you see Pantheon or jax jump on one of your Teammates that should be in Front of you and use their e congratulations you can Start attacking them and back in away to the safe zone when his skills are up again. And guess what that is a lot easier if you have Range that is close or more than his. A brusier can not escape jax q Range as ez as a Ranged champion. And if those Champions would not have any dashes or higher movement speed you could kite them with Red buff Till infinty without any counterplay for them. They would just die if kited properly before they even reach the adc. And all the other roles would cry because there is no counterplay to the undodgable (except jax, shen..) damage the adc does from a Range that can not be gapped.
Wait for those champions to use their one mobility spell then ! You can choose to go ham on them or maybe even outright walk past them and attack the higher priority enemies Or pick a champion who has abilities they can use during the meantime
Hell no, im the ad CARRY and have to be the best Player in the Team.... Yes youre right. If you csnt even think a second and decide to wait Till they used their dash before starting a fight, you deserve to lose. Imagine adc are allowed to Auto attack all the time without having to be careful not to overextend or going in too much. You would be just completely unable to reach them. This would mean any adc is an auto win against any melee champ. Does this Sound fair? I think not. Thats the trade: you can delete people with 2 to 4 Autos, but watch your goddamn step.
You don't delete people with 2-4 aa xD Also people can just keep their dashes? + Dashes have relatively low cd. What's worse, keeping your pantheon W or making one person not join a fight by just existing? Exactly, you can turn a fight 5vs4 by just not using one of your abilities.