Did he not consult a doctor? Vasectomies take at least 3 months to work and the tubes can reconnect so it’s certainly not a foolproof method of birth control. He has treated you horribly and failed to think clearly.
I am wondering how he did not know this (seems like something they say as part of the prep work before the process, right?)
Also, I am thinking OP married the wrong brother. Plus, if she does not go through with this divorce, in the future, even just a side eye from a taco stand dude might have him accusing her of cheating again. I mean, if he was so convinced, why did he not demand a paternity test?
I just had the consult in May and have one scheduled for November.
I was told 3 to 6 months, multiple tests will follow, until I'm for sure shooting blanks.
The chance of it not 'taking' is slim nowadays, but not unheard of. They go the 'extra mile' to ensure it doesn't reconnect. (This is what I was told anyway). But they said they won't give the "clear" until they test it and no active swimmers present.
Just to clarify, it's not just 'active' swimmers, it's no sperm at all. Even a single dead one getting through is a no-no. And it needs to be confirmed clear through multiple tests over several months.
How do I know? My husband had to have had two vasectomies...
As someone who has had 3 Vasectomies.
1st was botched as the dr got called out for an emergency just after it started, and only 1 side was compleated.
2nd about 6 months later they did the 2nd side.
8 months later wife is preg. after testing clear twice
3rd time they went in and recliped the one side, then cauterised all 4 ends of the vas, then did some sort of clip on 2 of the ends.
1st and second ones were done with puncturing small holes(maybe 3/8"). 3rd they did a large slice (2" or so)
been clear now for 14 years
And yet I bet your first instinct wasn't to call your wife a cheating whore and then call all your family and friends to tell them too and make them shun her. Interesting how that works.
They told me the clips were standard now. Incision down the middle and they pull the vas from each side to snip, caut, and clip.
So this is exactly what I'm expecting.
My friend had a vasectomy planned as he and his wife had three kids with the first happening while on birth control and decided they were done then covid hit and his vasectomy surgery was considered elective and non urgent so his surgery was canceled and no where would do it because of covid. He finally got it done just after the worst of covid was over and hospitals started accepting elective non urgent surgeries again and just after baby number four was born. He keeps going back to have it checked because two kids conceived while on birth control abd hearing stories of people who conceived after having a vasectomy means he doesn't trust the surgery to remain foolproof.
Yep, the pipes take months to completely clear, and it just takes one of those little suckers and bam pregnancy. Not to mention, the little bastards have a minimum 5 day life span after ejaculated. You can have sex on a Friday night and can be pregnant by Wednesday.
It mostly depends on the ph in the lady, how long the sperm survives. Most will be goners after a few days, but yes, 10-12 days isn't unheard of. It's why I strongly caution against trying to track her cycle as the sole form of birth control. Because most people underestimate the longevity of those little swimmers. And it only takes 1.
Yep. They bring 'small but mighty' into a whole new realm!
An old joke for you:
You know what they call people who use cycle tracking as a form of birth control?... Parents!
And they give you all of this in writing. That you sign. And have a copy. And are told verbally multiple times.
The old snopes meter is off the charts on this tale.
Honestly it sounds like he was pressured by family or society to merry or maybe even pressured himself but doubting that quick and treating her like that and getting a solid girlfriend all within that time frame and not even asking for dna test sounds like he was looking for any excuse the jump ship
Maybe he had a bad doctor. Maybe the nurse thought the doctor would inform him, and the doctor thought the nurse had already done it. Maybe Charles is just one of those people who ignore what's inconvenient to him.
Or maybe he made it all up so he could dump OP for his new girlfriend, but then his brother had to go and offer to do a DNA test, so now he has to pretend like all of this is new information to him, so his parents won't think he's deliberately abandoning his wife and child.
Like... There are so many ways this story could be real. I suggest you go watch one of those hilarious "I didn't know I was pregnant" episodes. (Or better yet, watch [Mama Doctor Jones](https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLVH2Gpf8wKeTbznebDBWEQcU02kuLGCOu&si=9wVSz3dlR8XoHwq5) react to them on YouTube, that way you get both drama and reproductive health education.)
Love I Didn’t Know I Was Pregnant mostly because it kinda happened to me. Tested negative the first 3 months of pregnancy with my kiddo even though I was sure I had morning sickness but was also still having my monthly so I figured that I couldn’t be and it was around the time of year where I am constantly sick. Took another test for hahas a week after my cycle and bam instantly positive test. Went to my OB and found out I was three months along the week after. Didn’t learn till this year it’s called a cryptic pregnancy and that some people can go a whole 9 month pregnancy testing negative and getting what seems to be their monthly cycle. Only reason I found out the name was because we thought it had happened again but turned out to be a different issue all together. Bodies are weird.
This was actually my experience last year getting a vasectomy. Doctor and staff were completely uninformative and if I hadn’t done my own research I would have been clueless about a lot of the follow ups. I had to pester them to give me information on where and when to deliver a sample for testing and even after that I had to pester them for the results.
In fact this thread just reminded me that I want to get tested by another urologist because I didn’t have a ton of confidence in that first guy…Yeesh.
Doctors screw up...people are stupid, arrogant. The Dr may have told him, he may have been pre-occupied.
This guy seems like such a massive dick though. And what's up with HER Family seemingly shunning her?
Maybe she should be with the Brother!
Ah...yeah...well that actually makes sense.
The hyper-religious family. The Gay Son, BIL, he's not as worried about turning his back on her.
A bit more understanding...
Still would be a marriage one thousand times better than the one she currently has with Charles.
Of course I don't think they actually should marry, what would be the point, but personally I hope she moves into a big house with John, and they co-parent the baby, and John adopts him. It's kind of perfect because he's obviously a wonderful man, he'd be an excellent father figure, he shares the child's blood, and it might be somewhat more difficult for him to have children of his own if he's gay. Then they can share raising the child, have time to find their own relationships too, etc.
Even if the doctor cleared it, I was told that some rare cases the tubes reattach later.
I would totally understand the dude being suspicious but if the wife swore up and down and was 100% willing to do a paternity test as soon as it was feasible, I'd probably be cool with it. And before that, I'd get a semen test as well.
Friend of a friend knew a guy that had an EXTRA tube. Same scenario. Had a vasectomy, his wife got pregnant. He went back to the urologist and they confirmed he had an extra tube they didn’t close. He even tested negative after the procedure too, somehow (I don’t know all the specifics, exactly).
Yeah, I mean first thing I’m doing in this situation is calling my urologist: “What’s going on here, dude?”
There’s also no way he had the procedure and wasn’t aware of this. Doctors can’t operate on someone for an elective procedure without informed consent.
That’s what I was thinking. My husband got one back in February he finally had a zero count last month. It takes that long plus you have to “clear” out what already was there. If they never had sex or he didn’t do anything else. There would still be swimmers left
I think it's likely that he was supposed to "clear that out" no less than thirty times before being considered "sterile". OP's description of his behavior towards sex tells me that he may not have engaged in that part.
This happens a lot, actually. So it’s not “rare” for a vasectomy to “not work.” OP, your stbx, his family, your family, and your so-called friends are all toxic. Block them all and do what you said…focus on your baby, and build a support system outside of those awful people.
A lot is relative. It's still exceptionally rare.
But, again, if you care about someone enough to marry them...you'd think maybe you'd give them SOME benefit of the doubt?
Seriously, all I thought was **DID HE GET THE TEST TO ENSURE HIS VASECTOMY DIDN’T FAIL?**
Ffs, he ruined OPs reputation and familial ties. He broke her emotionally Luckily John was there for her and made sure she and her child didn’t end up homeless. I highly doubt I’d give him a second chance. He destroyed any trust and is no longer a safe person for OP.
I don't know everything that happened regarding the vasectomy, on the wedding night, Charles informed me about the vasectomy since it was our first time and for religious reasons he didn't want to use a condom, we didn't want to have a child at the moment. But I admit that I was negligent in not looking further on the subject, this post helped me to discover some things about vasectomy and although I feel like an idiot for not investigating, now I'm more angry with Charles.
OP are you sure he had a vasectomy and didn’t lie to you to get you to have sex without protection? Your partners age is very young and very few drs perform vasectomies at that age (it takes a lot of fighting and trips to quite a few drs to find one who will do it one in my country) and none who will do it if you plan on having children in the future (reversal is highly expensive and invasive) because the rate of success of the reversal is so varied.
I mean have you heard of soaking for Mormons? People working around their religions typically make up crap that "seem good enough to them" to justify what they want to do with their religion.
Eh, it's people right to have procedures to eliminate getting children. And with how difficult it's in general to get them..
No, I think the problem is that he did it without telling his future wife. Like wtf.
Its something to go in dating and giving the facts and informing. It's another starting dating and deciding, well I don't want kids, guess my wife just has to deal.
But it sounds like want kids, they just weren't quite ready. You don't get a vasectomy because you want to wait a couple years to have kids, that would be nuts, no pun intended.
Plus she said they didn't want kids YET which to me means they do want kids eventually. Vasectomies are not always reversible, so people rarely get them if they want kids in the future. I don't see any guy ever getting two expensive testicle surgeries in a few year time frame and putting significant risk at their ability to ever have children if they believe they want kids but just not quite yet.
He never got a vasectomy, almost 100%. What a vile liar.
That’s exactly what I thought when I read her post. He lied to get what he wanted from the wife (unprotected sex) and he even used religion as an excuse. What a pos.
Honey he’s been lying and manipulating you. He got a vasectomy, which is not always reversible, before you got married and you were still planning for kids at some point
If he ever actually had the surgery and this isn’t just a way to screw with her. He has no kids, is very young, and too religious to have premarital sex or wear condoms, but was approved for a vasectomy that he never told her about?
This sounds like you have no evidence he's ever even actually had a vasectomy, just his word, let alone that he did any of the required postoperative care or checks. I wouldn't ever take him back but I'm in the US and don't know what actual repercussions or stigmas your culture and religion has for single mothers or the rights women have there so any advice I could give is rather meaningless to your particular situation. I do hope you end up happy and healthy regardless!
>we didn't want to have a child at the moment
If he already had a vasectomy, how was he planning on having kids at a later date? Reversals aren't guaranteed.
The sticking point for me OP is that he went and got a whole ass girlfriend while you were growing his child. You did absolutely nothing wrong and he punished you by doing that. And if he got a girlfriend, he probably had other hookups. He’s trash you stick to the divorce.
I saw a woman on TikTok that had three post vasectomy pregnancies. Her husband went to the doctor each time, and what would you know, his vasectomies kept reversing. He even tried getting it done by different doctors and it still happened.
But clearly her husband had common sense whilst also loving and trusting his wife, unlike OPs husband.
This is usually repeated by the doctor multiple times and also included in the literature regarding the procedure and generally reinforced after the snip is done too.
The speed at which your husband and his entire family bar John and your family and friends turned on you is really concerning. The fact not a single one of these adults even googled the basic information about the time it takes for the procedure to be fully effective - is really concerning.
NTA for not wanting to take back a man who kicked you out of the house without a second thought, because he couldn't follow the fucking instructions around his vasectomy.
Sure, everyone is apologising to you now cause they were absolute twats. But that doesn't change a thing. They just want you to pretend this never happened which by proxy mean they're incredibly shit behaviour wasn't a thing either.
Sorry, but i wouldn't trust any of these people as far as i could throw them.
You’re not stupid. You were duped by a man you loved. Your ex, well… he is stupid. IF he actually had a vasectomy - he didn’t listen to a single word of the risks and post op instructions. The fact that he left you instead of calling his doctor to ask what happened speaks volumes. I’m glad you are away from him. Get custody and move away from those insane people. They’ve shown who they really are. I’d want no part of any religion that turns its back on a pregnant woman. I’d never go back to any of them. They’ve shown their true selves.
Burned that relationship all the way through to hell. He is wrong and so is everyone else. The only decent person in the story was John and you! NTA unless you go back.
You are not an idiot for not going back. He not only treated you like garbage but quickly replaced you with another woman. So he cheated since you weren’t divorced. He’s trash
I am so sorry this happened to you and everybody you loved turned on you, except John.
You owe nothing to any of them: just your baby and yourself. Do what is best for you 2.
This wasn’t an oops somebody made a mistake this was tearing down your life brick by brick while kicking you.
Yes, I admit my guilt here, I was inexperienced and I was an idiot for just believing him and not researching about it. It was our honeymoon and I just believed him.
Yeah...just stop. You literally did nothing wrong. You're "guilt?"
You're not guilty of anything.
Getting someone pregnant after a vasectomy IS exceptionally rare... a big reason why is because most people listen to their Doctors and they understand you are still fertile for a number of ejaculations after the procedure.
You don't need to forgive him, but damn, stop with the "I'm such an idiot, I'm guilty too." You're really not. He just had one without telling you, then blamed you for his own ignorance and everyone turned their back on you.
I get the Religious aspect of it, but... what religion tells you to turn your back on someone you love?
LOL...trust me, if I thought you were an idiot or wrong, I'd say it. I'm not shy. You're not.
Jehovah's Witnesses are supposed to shun apostates and have no contact with family that leaves the sect. I know someone that happened to his sister, the whole family would literally act like she didn't exist
Mormons under certain circumstances- I think it has to be a specific call-out from a bishop maybe? But it happens
Scientology shuns people labeled 'SPs'
Some groups of ultra-orthodox Jews.
I don’t think you have anything to feel guilty for. Sure you weren’t super educated about it but you also weren’t the one who abandoned your pregnant spouse and turned their friends and family against them.
Honey, he is the one who should feel guilty. Not you.
You were in love, and trusted the man you had just married to be truthful with you. Meanwhile, he was either lying, stupid, or just incredibly negligent. He was the one who should have been doing research, seeing as he made this decision without even consulting you. That's not how marriage is supposed to work.
Please, be kind to yourself. You didn't know what an asshat he was. You did the best you could with the information available to you at the time.
May I suggest a YouTuber for you? She's the one I learned that saying from ("we do the best we can with the information available to us at the time", that is). She's an ObGyn, and has a ton of videos on her channel about reproductive health. One of them is a react show to a program called "I didn't know I was pregnant". I think watching a few episodes of it might make you feel less like you should've magically known things there was no way for you to know. There's a lot of people out there who think they're not able to have babies, and then wind up pregnant anyway. I'm hoping seeing them tell their stories, and the ObGyn agreeing that they did the best they could under the circumstances might cheer you up, and that you might feel like you're in good company. If it's not for you, no worries. I won't take it personally. Anyway, here's the link; [Mama Doctor Jones](https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLVH2Gpf8wKeTbznebDBWEQcU02kuLGCOu&si=2dQSGwlDtnvNbWeL)
My well wishes to you and your baby.
Although our environment is religious, I never thought it would react like that, I guess it was more important for them as they saw themselves in society, and although John is not excluded from the family, he doesn't really hang out with them because he is not very religious.
Honey, your religious environment is exactly why your husband should have stood by you and done testing/seen a damn doctor! I don't know where you live, but you could have been seriously hurt as an accused adulterer. Especially a pregnant one. You have absolutely NO guilt in any of this. Everyone in your life, except your BIL, failed you. It's also disgusting that he, ex-husband, had gf so quickly. You are not, and will not ever be, the jerk in this situation.
EDITION: BTW, your English is amazing. As an English speaker my whole, I had NO idea edit was short for edition :)
Seriously, though, someone needs to mention what could have happened to her. The best case scenario is that she's a social pariah in the community. He ruined her reputation. Women get killed for this shit all the time
NTA. Your husband wasted no time calling you a cheater, kicking you out of your home, turning everyone (except BIL) against you, and cheating on you. There is no coming back from all that.
You absolutely cannot trust your soon to be ex. He cheated on you, once a cheater always a cheater. Did he even go back and get tested for a sperm count once you became pregnant? Or did he assume everything took with the surgery?
He should be kicked to the curb and forced to pay you child support. Although since he had the vasectomy, you might argue for sole custody of the baby with the argument that he never wanted a child.
I have to look into it, I don't want his to be around my baby even if it means not having alimony.
I think he firmly believed that after vasectomy, it was impossible to have children, he didn't tell me about the situation before and I was stupid to believe that everything was in order.
I really wished I had more sex education and not grown up in an environment where it was so difficult to talk about these topics.
You were not stupid. You trusted a man you loved. That’s not stupid. He might be. But you aren’t. You said it yourself, you didn’t get very good sex education. It’s not your fail that you don’t know what you cannot know of the information has never been presented to you. You did not even know to look up what he said to fact check him.
Please try to stop beating yourself up. You have done nothing wrong.
Take him for all the money you can get. The best way to help someone like him to learn from his mistakes is to make them expensive. If he realizes there are consequences to ruining someone’s life over nothing, hopefully he won’t do it to someone else.
NTA. The relationship was destroyed the moment he didn’t belive you. There is nothing to salvage here. Plus, who cares what anyone thinks they are not the ones who were pregnant and homeless. Where were they when you needed support ? I am sorry you had to go through this. I hope he can at least be a supportive father.
Yes, it really was a very dark time and I am very spiteful, so there is no chance that I will forgive anyone, regarding support I still discuss it with my lawyer, I just want to be away from him, even if I don't get any money.
Nta, but I have a question. Did he give his Dr a post surgical sample and was he given the all clear to go unprotected? My son-in-law got his done in Feb after the birth of their 6th and he had to wait 90 days for the all clear.
I will speak with ignorance, but when I asked him when he had the vasectomy and since I had not noticed, he told me that it was a month before, and that the discomfort only lasted a week, we do not live together for religious reasons so I never saw him recover. He simply told me that the doctor told him that we could have sex, preferably with other contraceptive methods but we did not use it because for religious reasons he does not want to use it, he told me that the doctor was only a preventive measure contraceptive methods, but it was impossible for me to get pregnant.
Was your plan as a couple to be child free? He didn’t discuss with you at all that he got a vasectomy and instead went behind your back to get it done? Also the reason the doctor told him to use other methods for protection is because he **NEEDED** to get a follow up test to ensure it did not fail. Did he get the test? Was it confirmed by the doctor following the vasectomy that it hadn’t failed? Sounds like he didn’t listen to his doctor and did what he wanted.
Not sure there was ever a reason to trust this man. He lies and manipulates to his benefit and then blames you when it doesn’t go his way.
ETA: I read you said you didn’t want kids “at the moment”. So, YOU wanted them maybe at some point in the future, but he had a vasectomy? A vasectomy can be reversed, but doesn’t always work. Seems **HE** made the decision that your life would be child free, he just didn’t realize that sometimes they fail.
I hope you kept evidence of his treatment of you. I don’t know what your laws are, but sometimes if you can prove abandonment of yourself and child they can be forced to pay support. Also then might not get any custody or visitation based on past actions. He doesn’t seem like a fit person to be a parent, I’d fight him on it.
You didn't live together for religious reasons, and he did want to use other contraceptives for religious reasons, but he got a vasectomy? Please make it make sense.
No, he didn't want to use contraception for religious reasons, only vasectomy and abstinence were acceptable, I don't know his family dynamics but in mine, it's just abstinence, he said vasectomy is okay because it's reversible. I knew his parents' opinion regarding abstinence, but not about vasectomy, later, I was embarrassed to ask about it besides that it was a matter between Charles and me.
"he said vasectomy is okay because it's reversible." And using contraceptives isn't? A condom is a thousand times easier and less expensive to prevent a pregnancy but still leave the door open for a baby down the road.This still doesn't make any sense but also it's religious thinking so I can't say I'm all that surprised.
condoms are reversible too. you can just take them off. I wouldn't marry this guy just because he's giant ignoramous or trying to totally bs you. or he was lying because he didn't want to be married which is probably why he wouldn't get a DNA test done. but now that his parents knew that it's his baby, they're going to make him get married to you
Ignore the begging and apologies of Charles, your family, and your friends. They were not supportive of you, and you cannot count on these people ever. Do not pulled back into any relationship with them.
Serious question—you speak really highly of John, and he seems to be a really wonderful person who is supportive of you. Would there be a chance of anything developing between you? If it does, please do not care what Charles, the family, or friends may say.
I don’t really agree. The relationship was destroyed when he went scorched earth in his response without taking any steps to confirm his natural suspicion.
He blew up every part of their lives and moved on without doing any research or basic checking to see if he might be wrong. That’s something beyond not believing OP.
I don’t think I’d blame him for needing a paternity test, or having doubts. I do blame him for this. NTA.
I also blame her family. Even if she had cheated, she was pregnant and vulnerable and they ostracized her. Cheating isn’t such a crime that it deserves that from your parents.
OP, get all the money, baby supplies, savings accounts, and everything you can from them. Then move the money into a different account only you can access and cut them off outside of child support. This way you'll have some of the support you were missing while pregnant and after the birth, but you won't be in contact with them anymore. Get what you can and get out.
And who would want to stay married to him, the vicious things he did to her And he’s went and got a girlfriend and is screwing her!
He’s an Adulterer.
I wouldn’t want his Dick in me after it’s been in another woman’s vaj.
The man has no shame and no brains.
Absolutely agree. NTA at all. Trust and support are crucial, and he completely failed you when you needed him the most. Stay strong and focus on you and your baby.
Tell your lawyer to get full custody and child support. Even if you don’t need it.
What he did was abuse so you are right for not going back. Plus he’s an idiot for not requesting a paternity test.
1. He chose NOT TO LISTEN to you or give you the chance to explain yourself
2. He chose not to look for info about vasectomy as the last resource to salvage your marriage
3. He chose to treat you as garbage
4. He chose to miss the whole pregnancy and I’m guessing he didn’t pay for anything
5. HE GOT A GIRLFRIEND!!!!
He was the one who destroyed your long-standing relationship, not you
Now, please CHOOSE not to get back to him 🙏🏼
NTA- of course you’re aren’t the a hole. You’ve been through an incredibly traumatic emotional experience on top of the trauma of carrying and delivering a baby. I don’t know what to think about him casting you aside, other than that if you hadn’t consider genetic paternity testing in utero, than he certainly should have before allowing his newly pregnant wife to be homeless and friendless and feeling free to date other women. Of course you no longer feel safe in this relationship. What would happen the next time he feels validated in his mistrust? He didn’t speak to a doctor about his concerns or anything? Thank goodness for John.
Charles could have had his sperm checked. Did he? Everyone knows nothing is 100% effective. And he cheated on you during the time of your pregnancy and birth. The marriage is over. He is not someone you can count on ever!!!
You're supposed to drop at least 10 loads and then go get the 11th tested for sperm... he didn't do that. OP dodged a bullet, she found out the real Charles early on
You are right....we always strongly suggested males get 3 negative sperm samples and use other birth control until this is done. Have seen many oops babies.
NTA. Why didn’t he go back to the Dr who performed the vasectomy and ask if this was possible? Why didn’t he ask to have his sperm count checked? Also anyone with access to the internet could have found out that this was possible. I know of someone who got pregnant after her husband had a vasectomy. Their dr explained that for about a month afterwards they should use protection. Also he would have to come back in to check his sperm count. Go through with the divorce.
He also didn’t tell her he had a vasectomy until a month after he had it done, on their wedding night, they were talking about having kids eventually and he didn’t tell her he was even considering one
NTA and he’s an absolute clown. He had a vasectomy *one month before*! He knows damn fine the doctor would have told him he needed to have a three monthly then annual clearance to make sure the vasectomy worked. He had ZERO right to do this to you and tell lies to his friends and family. He’s for the streets
I am a product of a vasectomy.
You're right, he abandoned you at your most vulnerable .
This is what you can expect from him in the future.
God forbid you get a bad diagnosis medically. You will be on your own.
I personally would cut off every single person who turned their back on me. You can't trust any of them ever again.
This includes your parents. OP, look at your baby. Could you ever disown that child?
Your parents abandoned you during pregnancy because you "shamed them".
I don't care what anyone thinks.I love my children and stand by them till my dying breath, and in spirit too!
Congratulations on your Beau baby OP. I'm glad you have John in your corner.
UpdateMe
The loser didn't go for his follow up appointment to make sure that there was no sperm? Then he satmys you cheated? Fuck him... no Bueno. Continue with the divorce and don't look back. Maybe John is a good fit
Something doesn’t add up. Charles is either a sneaky asshole, or a stupid asshole. OR (this is my choice) this isn’t real.
If it is real and he’s a sneaky asshole that means he either didn’t get a vasectomy or he did, but he knew it wasn’t effective yet. With him wanting kids eventually I’m guessing he just wanted to raw dog you and never got one. The fact that his brother was on your side makes me think he knew something you didn’t.
If he’s a stupid asshole that means he didn’t listen to the doctor to see if it worked.
The way he reacted, he doesn’t deserve to be back in your life.
Edit for an ignorant question: what religious reasons say no condoms? If it’s Catholic, then he should have practiced abstinence because you need to do Natural Family Planning since you don’t know your fertility cycles yet.
It's the timeliness that doesn't add up to me.
OP said that her now-husband refused to have any sex before either being married, or having a vasectomy.
Husband claims on wedding night that he had a vasectomy approximately one month prior. So, we'll say about four weeks.
OP said she discovered the pregnancy during the honeymoon.
Date of conception is normally considered to be the date of the first missed period. You normally wouldn't test for pregnancy unless you're showing signs of it, such as the missed period. And we're talking about a situation where the woman thinks her new husband had had a vasectomy. So the fact OP even tested for pregnancy *during their honeymoon* seems very random and paranoid given the context. What with the vasectomy and them having been abstinant, and all.
If OP discovered the pregnancy on the honeymoon, they had to have conceived this baby *before* the vasectomy. Otherwise, OP only would have been *at the very most* four weeks pregnant, and wouldn't have had any reason yet to test for a pregnancy.
And again, what? So, she was testing for pregnancy after only four or so weeks of having had sex for the very first time with a man who she believed had had a vasectomy?
It's all just very strange.
OP you are doing the right thing!! He is such a hypocrite!! HE should have made sure he went to the final test AFTER his surgery to make sure there was no more active live sperm. Instead he jumped to cheating - which I think HE was doing - since he got a GF so soon after the news. HE has been a cheater all along is my bet.
You OWE HIM NOTHING. You and your baby have a good a healthy life that you deserve.
Divorce Charles. The snake moved a girlfriend into his home while you were pregnant. It looks like he did not really want a relationship. I doubt he will ever have respect for you. You are better off without the dog.
NTA. Protect yourself against all of them that would throw you and your baby away without even listening to you.
They didn't give you a chance. You don't have to give them one.
I got pregnant with a newer boyfriend who'd had a vasectomy years earlier and had had a long term partner who never got pregnant, so he had zero reason to think he was fertile. When I told him, I was anticipating he would at least question whether I had cheated (I had not). Didn't even occur to him, obviously he was surprised but he just went back to the doc and had it redone and triple checked. Not a single unkind word and we had not made any promises to each other.
Charles is an ignorant child.
Um why did he have a vasectomy so young and unmarried? One month after a vasectomy is not a good time to test if the procedure worked. He was allowed a girlfriend why you were still legally married? You'd all seems a bit fishy.
The fact is, he treated you deplorably. He was disrespectful and cruel. His family and the friend circle are just as bad. There was nothing stopping him from going to a doctor to confirm things, but he chose to be so callous.
You are right in continuing the divorce. I hope you are able to move away with baby and find some real friends so you have the support system you deserve.
I wish you and your baby all the best. You brother in law is a gem. Keep him in your life. 🇦🇺💚🕊
fuck that guy don't go back. NTA. No birth control method is perfect and instead of jumping to conclusions he could've investigated it fucking respectfully.
It took me 8 months to get a clear test after my vasectomy. I masturbated twice a day. They told him before the procedure there was going to be a risk period after the procedure. He fucked up.
Stick true to who you are.
NTA. Do not let people like this remain in your life without them performing some actions proving they’ve drastically, dramatically changed. You deserve much, much better than this. So does your child.
NTA. Did this asshole have his sperm tested after his vasectomy? He accused you of cheating but when he found out it was his child he was singing another tune.
Don’t go back to him.
I would go NC with everyone and put his butt on child support. OP can do a lot better with a spouse, friends and family too. They owe you not the other way around.
I wouldn't let anybody back in my life who turned their back on me while I was pregnant. You don't owe any of them anything. I wonder if your husband already had that girlfriend before he accused you. NTA. I'm so glad John stepped up while everyone else stepped away. Congratulations on your baby and your new life.
Did your husband get the vasectomy done next to a dumpster behind a 7-11? You’re supposed to get your semen tested several times before having unprotected sex without fear of pregnancy. NTA. Your husband is an idiot.
NTA. I have two male colleagues that both had failed vasectomies which resulted in their wives getting pregnant. You know what the first thing they thought /said when their wives told them? “Oh shit, the vasectomy must have failed!” That is the response you deserved. Get rid of him and don’t look back.
I’d tell him, his family, all your friends, and your family that they all made a decision. And now Charles is living with that decision and child support for the rest of his life. You aren’t going to be married to a man who accused you of cheating & went out and got a new girlfriend he was parading around.
Tank your old friends for telling you who they were. Tell them 0 chance in coming back to your life. They made a choice and now they can live with being on the wrong side of history. Tell them they should examine what relationships they all have closer because everyone saw how quick people in the group would turn on one of their own just based on an opinion and no fact. Tell his family, minus his brother, that as well.
For your family… if you want them involved, tell them there’s a tax for 9 months of no support and vitriol through your pregnancy and you aren’t forgiving Charles or your friends, or his family. Tell your family they now have to earn everything back and the first thing they are going to do is publicly denounce Charles, his family, and all your old friends as liars.
NTA
My mom had a friend get pregnant post vasectomy. After he beat her up, he found out he had a third testicle.
And like others said, it takes time for a vasectomy to fully work.
I'm sorry this happened. The way he treated you was horrible.
Of course you are NTA. You've been treated horribly through no fault of your own. Your husband doesn't even like you.
Given that he had a vasectomy, he clearly didn't want children and you married him knowing that, so I'm assuming you didn't want them either. The situation you are in is entirely your husband's fault and I can assure you that life as a single parent is significantly better than life married to someone like him.
NTA. You have seen how your husband treats you if he even believes you have done something wrong even if you haven’t. Not only did he leave you, he got together with another woman, and got your entire family and all of your friends to shun and ostracize you. What will cause his mistreatment next time? For your own wellness, you should leave him.
Vasectomies fail a lot more often than people think. My daughter was born despite her father's vasectomy and me being on bc. If that baby wants to come into being, it's gonna happen. NTA your ex-husband was monstrous to you.
After a vasectomy you are TOLD by the doctor that you still have to use contraception for 3 months, and then get tested to make sure it worked before having unprotected sex
NTA and please do what is right for your child and you. Seal him/her from the toxic families. Don’t let them have any influence on your child. You entitled for your feeling and think a divorce is a way to go. Take care of yourself and your mental health for the sake of your child
Sounds like after getting the vasectomy just like my neighbor's husband many years ago didn't go back to do the check to make sure it took the first time
NTA. Bottom line: this is a man who went scorched earth on you *before going to the doctor and running tests to check if there was viable spermatozoon’s in his sperm*.
NTA you would be doing yourself a disservice if you got back with him. Everyone abandoned and he cheated on you at your most vulnerable, especially when DNA tests are a thing prior to birth and if your husband had more than 2 braincells to know that pregnancy is still possible after a vasectomy, slim but not zero which is why he should've still been going to the doctor to check his count. I would cut communication off with everyone except the BIL.
He just wanted a reason to go screw someone else. I mean thinking logically it would be the smartest thing to get a dna test before anyone blows up. And everyone knows that a vasectomy isn’t 100% baby proof. Was your ex husband an idiot or he was just looking for a way out of the marriage. Regardless the damage is done. He got with another woman. Your intimate life will never be the same again with him. Don’t take him back.
Funny everyone around you is so concerned about taboo subjects and there a slut cheating wife but nobody has a problem with Charles a married man having a girlfriend and treating you like scum your entire pregnancy. All of them can go fuck themselves. I wish you were in America instead of where you are now. Sad. Don’t know what to tell you to do.
You're definitely NTA. Trust is key in any relationship, and what he did was pretty unforgivable. Focusing on your baby and yourself is the right move. Stay strong!
NTA. Everyone knows that vasectomies aren’t a 1000% effective. But to give them the best shot you have to wait and have check ups to make sure that it took effect. That takes at least what 6 months but he was so sure after just a month that he kicked you out and got himself a girlfriend oh fuck no. He wouldn’t be forgiven for that. I wouldn’t be forgiving any of them that turned on you. They don’t deserve it.
NTA
They want you to stay married, then they can ease their guilt that they threw you out and treated you like garbage when you did. Nothing wrong.
They are thinking of themselves, not you. If you get divorced they will feel guilty in the role they played which destroyed the family. AND THEY SHOULD.
It also didn’t take your husband long to find a new gf. He doesn’t give a sh** about you. It’s now about appearance and saving face. His family will also want him to repair the relationship so they have larger access to the baby.
This happens - he was beyond out of line. I would cut everyone out of your life. And blast them publicly. And the timing of dna test is not only on you. You don’t own the mistake. That’s everyone;s fault.
NTA. In marriage, you are supposed to find yourself with a partner who will be there to support you in the times you need it most. Not only did Charles not support you, but he was directly responsible for causing the trials with his accusatory, reactionary, burn-the-house-down response.
They want you to forgive "a small mistake"? You were alone and isolated, completely ostracized, from what should have been *multiple* support groups for you, since not only was his family cutting you out, but so was your friend group.
There are some things that I could never forget or ever forgive. This is definitely one of them. I would never be able to lay in bed with this man, share a house with him, build a life with him, without being haunted by the memory of what he had done. I would never be able to trust him again.
You are NTA.
NTA, honestly, your ex is an idiot. You have to go back and get your sperm tested. I'm sure the doctor told him this. It took my husband 3 months to be cleared. Everyone involved in shaming you is ignorant, and this whole thing could have been cleared up with a Google search. So, instead of cheating, he cheated by having a girlfriend before you were even divorced.
NTA. After you’ve seen how horribly they can treat you the only answer is going NC for each and everyone of them. Nothing is keeping them from doing that same sh$t the next time they deem your behavior unacceptable. But now it’s not just you who could be hurt. Be the protective mama bear by using the strength you found while you were pregnant. You know better than letting them back in and potentially have contact with your baby.
NTA. Divorce him, go NC with everyone who treated you like dirt and abandoned you at your most vulnerable. They don’t deserve you or your baby in their miserable lives. Best wishes to you op.
Did he not consult a doctor? Vasectomies take at least 3 months to work and the tubes can reconnect so it’s certainly not a foolproof method of birth control. He has treated you horribly and failed to think clearly.
This!!! No way did his doctor clear his semen that soon after a vasectomy.
I am wondering how he did not know this (seems like something they say as part of the prep work before the process, right?) Also, I am thinking OP married the wrong brother. Plus, if she does not go through with this divorce, in the future, even just a side eye from a taco stand dude might have him accusing her of cheating again. I mean, if he was so convinced, why did he not demand a paternity test?
I just had the consult in May and have one scheduled for November. I was told 3 to 6 months, multiple tests will follow, until I'm for sure shooting blanks. The chance of it not 'taking' is slim nowadays, but not unheard of. They go the 'extra mile' to ensure it doesn't reconnect. (This is what I was told anyway). But they said they won't give the "clear" until they test it and no active swimmers present.
Just to clarify, it's not just 'active' swimmers, it's no sperm at all. Even a single dead one getting through is a no-no. And it needs to be confirmed clear through multiple tests over several months. How do I know? My husband had to have had two vasectomies...
As someone who has had 3 Vasectomies. 1st was botched as the dr got called out for an emergency just after it started, and only 1 side was compleated. 2nd about 6 months later they did the 2nd side. 8 months later wife is preg. after testing clear twice 3rd time they went in and recliped the one side, then cauterised all 4 ends of the vas, then did some sort of clip on 2 of the ends. 1st and second ones were done with puncturing small holes(maybe 3/8"). 3rd they did a large slice (2" or so) been clear now for 14 years
And yet I bet your first instinct wasn't to call your wife a cheating whore and then call all your family and friends to tell them too and make them shun her. Interesting how that works.
nope. as I knew there were chances that vas have issues. not that the thought didn't cross my mind. I also had faith in my wife
They told me the clips were standard now. Incision down the middle and they pull the vas from each side to snip, caut, and clip. So this is exactly what I'm expecting.
My friend had a vasectomy planned as he and his wife had three kids with the first happening while on birth control and decided they were done then covid hit and his vasectomy surgery was considered elective and non urgent so his surgery was canceled and no where would do it because of covid. He finally got it done just after the worst of covid was over and hospitals started accepting elective non urgent surgeries again and just after baby number four was born. He keeps going back to have it checked because two kids conceived while on birth control abd hearing stories of people who conceived after having a vasectomy means he doesn't trust the surgery to remain foolproof.
My husband had to go back in for a “correction,” because two months after he healed, I did, in fact, get pregnant.
But was he getting checked yearly or bi yearly after the two initial samples.?
Yep, the pipes take months to completely clear, and it just takes one of those little suckers and bam pregnancy. Not to mention, the little bastards have a minimum 5 day life span after ejaculated. You can have sex on a Friday night and can be pregnant by Wednesday.
Fun fact, they've found a sperm that survived for TWELVE days post ejaculation. Sex on Friday and pregnant on Wednesday *next week*.
It mostly depends on the ph in the lady, how long the sperm survives. Most will be goners after a few days, but yes, 10-12 days isn't unheard of. It's why I strongly caution against trying to track her cycle as the sole form of birth control. Because most people underestimate the longevity of those little swimmers. And it only takes 1.
Yep. They bring 'small but mighty' into a whole new realm! An old joke for you: You know what they call people who use cycle tracking as a form of birth control?... Parents!
Can confirm that cycle tracking didn’t work for us.
My mom can confirm the sponge/spermacidal foam didn't work hence me calling her mom. XD
That one is singing "I WILL SURVIVE" all the way home
The visual I had of this cracked me up 🤣
Me too lol. With his little spermy tail end whipping back and forth as he struts while grinning.....lol Wearing a gladiator helmet....
Thank you. Now I'm imagining a little sperm that looks like Emeril shouting "BAM! Pregnancy"
And they give you all of this in writing. That you sign. And have a copy. And are told verbally multiple times. The old snopes meter is off the charts on this tale.
Different countries, different legal and health systems. And Charles sounds like a douche-canoe who feels he's above listening.
Honestly it sounds like he was pressured by family or society to merry or maybe even pressured himself but doubting that quick and treating her like that and getting a solid girlfriend all within that time frame and not even asking for dna test sounds like he was looking for any excuse the jump ship
Maybe he had a bad doctor. Maybe the nurse thought the doctor would inform him, and the doctor thought the nurse had already done it. Maybe Charles is just one of those people who ignore what's inconvenient to him. Or maybe he made it all up so he could dump OP for his new girlfriend, but then his brother had to go and offer to do a DNA test, so now he has to pretend like all of this is new information to him, so his parents won't think he's deliberately abandoning his wife and child. Like... There are so many ways this story could be real. I suggest you go watch one of those hilarious "I didn't know I was pregnant" episodes. (Or better yet, watch [Mama Doctor Jones](https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLVH2Gpf8wKeTbznebDBWEQcU02kuLGCOu&si=9wVSz3dlR8XoHwq5) react to them on YouTube, that way you get both drama and reproductive health education.)
Love I Didn’t Know I Was Pregnant mostly because it kinda happened to me. Tested negative the first 3 months of pregnancy with my kiddo even though I was sure I had morning sickness but was also still having my monthly so I figured that I couldn’t be and it was around the time of year where I am constantly sick. Took another test for hahas a week after my cycle and bam instantly positive test. Went to my OB and found out I was three months along the week after. Didn’t learn till this year it’s called a cryptic pregnancy and that some people can go a whole 9 month pregnancy testing negative and getting what seems to be their monthly cycle. Only reason I found out the name was because we thought it had happened again but turned out to be a different issue all together. Bodies are weird.
This was actually my experience last year getting a vasectomy. Doctor and staff were completely uninformative and if I hadn’t done my own research I would have been clueless about a lot of the follow ups. I had to pester them to give me information on where and when to deliver a sample for testing and even after that I had to pester them for the results. In fact this thread just reminded me that I want to get tested by another urologist because I didn’t have a ton of confidence in that first guy…Yeesh.
Doctors screw up...people are stupid, arrogant. The Dr may have told him, he may have been pre-occupied. This guy seems like such a massive dick though. And what's up with HER Family seemingly shunning her? Maybe she should be with the Brother!
I agree that John cares for her. Only one issue. She said he's gay.
Ah...yeah...well that actually makes sense. The hyper-religious family. The Gay Son, BIL, he's not as worried about turning his back on her. A bit more understanding...
Still would be a marriage one thousand times better than the one she currently has with Charles. Of course I don't think they actually should marry, what would be the point, but personally I hope she moves into a big house with John, and they co-parent the baby, and John adopts him. It's kind of perfect because he's obviously a wonderful man, he'd be an excellent father figure, he shares the child's blood, and it might be somewhat more difficult for him to have children of his own if he's gay. Then they can share raising the child, have time to find their own relationships too, etc.
I hesitated to suggest this but it is an excellent idea
A massive, sperm-producing dick!
Even if the doctor cleared it, I was told that some rare cases the tubes reattach later. I would totally understand the dude being suspicious but if the wife swore up and down and was 100% willing to do a paternity test as soon as it was feasible, I'd probably be cool with it. And before that, I'd get a semen test as well.
Friend of a friend knew a guy that had an EXTRA tube. Same scenario. Had a vasectomy, his wife got pregnant. He went back to the urologist and they confirmed he had an extra tube they didn’t close. He even tested negative after the procedure too, somehow (I don’t know all the specifics, exactly). Yeah, I mean first thing I’m doing in this situation is calling my urologist: “What’s going on here, dude?”
There’s also no way he had the procedure and wasn’t aware of this. Doctors can’t operate on someone for an elective procedure without informed consent.
Well and you are supposed to follow up after a certain period of time, and have a test to ensure it took.
Signing a form saying you understand does not actually mean you understand.
Seriously! They made me wait 4 months before they'd even let me give a sample to make sure I was clear.
That’s what I was thinking. My husband got one back in February he finally had a zero count last month. It takes that long plus you have to “clear” out what already was there. If they never had sex or he didn’t do anything else. There would still be swimmers left
I think it's likely that he was supposed to "clear that out" no less than thirty times before being considered "sterile". OP's description of his behavior towards sex tells me that he may not have engaged in that part.
This happens a lot, actually. So it’s not “rare” for a vasectomy to “not work.” OP, your stbx, his family, your family, and your so-called friends are all toxic. Block them all and do what you said…focus on your baby, and build a support system outside of those awful people.
A lot is relative. It's still exceptionally rare. But, again, if you care about someone enough to marry them...you'd think maybe you'd give them SOME benefit of the doubt?
Seriously, all I thought was **DID HE GET THE TEST TO ENSURE HIS VASECTOMY DIDN’T FAIL?** Ffs, he ruined OPs reputation and familial ties. He broke her emotionally Luckily John was there for her and made sure she and her child didn’t end up homeless. I highly doubt I’d give him a second chance. He destroyed any trust and is no longer a safe person for OP.
He never got the vasectomy and has always been a piece of shit.
I don't know everything that happened regarding the vasectomy, on the wedding night, Charles informed me about the vasectomy since it was our first time and for religious reasons he didn't want to use a condom, we didn't want to have a child at the moment. But I admit that I was negligent in not looking further on the subject, this post helped me to discover some things about vasectomy and although I feel like an idiot for not investigating, now I'm more angry with Charles.
OP are you sure he had a vasectomy and didn’t lie to you to get you to have sex without protection? Your partners age is very young and very few drs perform vasectomies at that age (it takes a lot of fighting and trips to quite a few drs to find one who will do it one in my country) and none who will do it if you plan on having children in the future (reversal is highly expensive and invasive) because the rate of success of the reversal is so varied.
it also seems strange for a religion to be against condoms but ok with a vasectomy.
I mean have you heard of soaking for Mormons? People working around their religions typically make up crap that "seem good enough to them" to justify what they want to do with their religion.
And this is awful young to be having a vasectomy.
Eh, it's people right to have procedures to eliminate getting children. And with how difficult it's in general to get them.. No, I think the problem is that he did it without telling his future wife. Like wtf. Its something to go in dating and giving the facts and informing. It's another starting dating and deciding, well I don't want kids, guess my wife just has to deal.
But it sounds like want kids, they just weren't quite ready. You don't get a vasectomy because you want to wait a couple years to have kids, that would be nuts, no pun intended.
Plus she said they didn't want kids YET which to me means they do want kids eventually. Vasectomies are not always reversible, so people rarely get them if they want kids in the future. I don't see any guy ever getting two expensive testicle surgeries in a few year time frame and putting significant risk at their ability to ever have children if they believe they want kids but just not quite yet. He never got a vasectomy, almost 100%. What a vile liar.
That’s exactly what I thought when I read her post. He lied to get what he wanted from the wife (unprotected sex) and he even used religion as an excuse. What a pos.
This was my initial reaction too.
So he was a liar from the start. He didn’t tell you he’d had a vasectomy until you were already married. How can you trust someone like that?
Honey he’s been lying and manipulating you. He got a vasectomy, which is not always reversible, before you got married and you were still planning for kids at some point
If he ever actually had the surgery and this isn’t just a way to screw with her. He has no kids, is very young, and too religious to have premarital sex or wear condoms, but was approved for a vasectomy that he never told her about?
This sounds like you have no evidence he's ever even actually had a vasectomy, just his word, let alone that he did any of the required postoperative care or checks. I wouldn't ever take him back but I'm in the US and don't know what actual repercussions or stigmas your culture and religion has for single mothers or the rights women have there so any advice I could give is rather meaningless to your particular situation. I do hope you end up happy and healthy regardless!
>we didn't want to have a child at the moment If he already had a vasectomy, how was he planning on having kids at a later date? Reversals aren't guaranteed.
“didn’t want to have a child at the moment”. Surely if he had a vasectomy you both had no intention of ever having kids.
The sticking point for me OP is that he went and got a whole ass girlfriend while you were growing his child. You did absolutely nothing wrong and he punished you by doing that. And if he got a girlfriend, he probably had other hookups. He’s trash you stick to the divorce.
Absolutely, his lack of consulting a doctor or following up properly was a major oversight. Treating her that way without listening was just wrong.
I saw a woman on TikTok that had three post vasectomy pregnancies. Her husband went to the doctor each time, and what would you know, his vasectomies kept reversing. He even tried getting it done by different doctors and it still happened. But clearly her husband had common sense whilst also loving and trusting his wife, unlike OPs husband.
This is usually repeated by the doctor multiple times and also included in the literature regarding the procedure and generally reinforced after the snip is done too. The speed at which your husband and his entire family bar John and your family and friends turned on you is really concerning. The fact not a single one of these adults even googled the basic information about the time it takes for the procedure to be fully effective - is really concerning. NTA for not wanting to take back a man who kicked you out of the house without a second thought, because he couldn't follow the fucking instructions around his vasectomy. Sure, everyone is apologising to you now cause they were absolute twats. But that doesn't change a thing. They just want you to pretend this never happened which by proxy mean they're incredibly shit behaviour wasn't a thing either. Sorry, but i wouldn't trust any of these people as far as i could throw them.
Came here to say this. Another Swiss cheese story.
Or everyone involved is just really stupid
I think we're all really stupid
You’re not stupid. You were duped by a man you loved. Your ex, well… he is stupid. IF he actually had a vasectomy - he didn’t listen to a single word of the risks and post op instructions. The fact that he left you instead of calling his doctor to ask what happened speaks volumes. I’m glad you are away from him. Get custody and move away from those insane people. They’ve shown who they really are. I’d want no part of any religion that turns its back on a pregnant woman. I’d never go back to any of them. They’ve shown their true selves.
After 2016 and 2020 I'm actually okay with that answer.
Burned that relationship all the way through to hell. He is wrong and so is everyone else. The only decent person in the story was John and you! NTA unless you go back.
Don't worry, I won't be coming back, I just wanted to know if I was an idiot for not coming back, but those people are totally excluded.
You are not an idiot for not going back. He threw you away like trash at the first opportunity. Don’t go back to the garbage man.
Don't blame you for not getting back with him. He treated you horribly.
You are not an idiot for not going back. He not only treated you like garbage but quickly replaced you with another woman. So he cheated since you weren’t divorced. He’s trash
No. Your ex is an idiot and an AH.
Imagine getting a girlfriend within months of kicking out your pregnant wife. Jerk!
Wouldn’t surprise me if she was in the frame BEFORE this blew up.
That was my thought too. He was looking for an excuse.
I am so sorry this happened to you and everybody you loved turned on you, except John. You owe nothing to any of them: just your baby and yourself. Do what is best for you 2. This wasn’t an oops somebody made a mistake this was tearing down your life brick by brick while kicking you.
Rather than doing LITERALLY THIRTY SECONDS of googling to find out how long someone is fertile post-vasectomy.
Yes, I admit my guilt here, I was inexperienced and I was an idiot for just believing him and not researching about it. It was our honeymoon and I just believed him.
Yeah...just stop. You literally did nothing wrong. You're "guilt?" You're not guilty of anything. Getting someone pregnant after a vasectomy IS exceptionally rare... a big reason why is because most people listen to their Doctors and they understand you are still fertile for a number of ejaculations after the procedure. You don't need to forgive him, but damn, stop with the "I'm such an idiot, I'm guilty too." You're really not. He just had one without telling you, then blamed you for his own ignorance and everyone turned their back on you. I get the Religious aspect of it, but... what religion tells you to turn your back on someone you love? LOL...trust me, if I thought you were an idiot or wrong, I'd say it. I'm not shy. You're not.
Lots of religions tell you to turn your back on someone you love, its called shunning.
Yikes. This is so awful. Which religions do this?
Islamic extremism, it is very common and goes so far as to include murder as the punishment (honor killings). Mostly women are the victims.
Jehovah's Witnesses are supposed to shun apostates and have no contact with family that leaves the sect. I know someone that happened to his sister, the whole family would literally act like she didn't exist Mormons under certain circumstances- I think it has to be a specific call-out from a bishop maybe? But it happens Scientology shuns people labeled 'SPs' Some groups of ultra-orthodox Jews.
I don’t think you have anything to feel guilty for. Sure you weren’t super educated about it but you also weren’t the one who abandoned your pregnant spouse and turned their friends and family against them.
Honey, he is the one who should feel guilty. Not you. You were in love, and trusted the man you had just married to be truthful with you. Meanwhile, he was either lying, stupid, or just incredibly negligent. He was the one who should have been doing research, seeing as he made this decision without even consulting you. That's not how marriage is supposed to work. Please, be kind to yourself. You didn't know what an asshat he was. You did the best you could with the information available to you at the time. May I suggest a YouTuber for you? She's the one I learned that saying from ("we do the best we can with the information available to us at the time", that is). She's an ObGyn, and has a ton of videos on her channel about reproductive health. One of them is a react show to a program called "I didn't know I was pregnant". I think watching a few episodes of it might make you feel less like you should've magically known things there was no way for you to know. There's a lot of people out there who think they're not able to have babies, and then wind up pregnant anyway. I'm hoping seeing them tell their stories, and the ObGyn agreeing that they did the best they could under the circumstances might cheer you up, and that you might feel like you're in good company. If it's not for you, no worries. I won't take it personally. Anyway, here's the link; [Mama Doctor Jones](https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLVH2Gpf8wKeTbznebDBWEQcU02kuLGCOu&si=2dQSGwlDtnvNbWeL) My well wishes to you and your baby.
Seconding MDJ! Honestly for any and everybody, MDJ has great info and is always kind in how she speaks about the topics she talks about.
Although our environment is religious, I never thought it would react like that, I guess it was more important for them as they saw themselves in society, and although John is not excluded from the family, he doesn't really hang out with them because he is not very religious.
Honey, your religious environment is exactly why your husband should have stood by you and done testing/seen a damn doctor! I don't know where you live, but you could have been seriously hurt as an accused adulterer. Especially a pregnant one. You have absolutely NO guilt in any of this. Everyone in your life, except your BIL, failed you. It's also disgusting that he, ex-husband, had gf so quickly. You are not, and will not ever be, the jerk in this situation. EDITION: BTW, your English is amazing. As an English speaker my whole, I had NO idea edit was short for edition :)
Seriously, though, someone needs to mention what could have happened to her. The best case scenario is that she's a social pariah in the community. He ruined her reputation. Women get killed for this shit all the time
NTA. Your husband wasted no time calling you a cheater, kicking you out of your home, turning everyone (except BIL) against you, and cheating on you. There is no coming back from all that. You absolutely cannot trust your soon to be ex. He cheated on you, once a cheater always a cheater. Did he even go back and get tested for a sperm count once you became pregnant? Or did he assume everything took with the surgery? He should be kicked to the curb and forced to pay you child support. Although since he had the vasectomy, you might argue for sole custody of the baby with the argument that he never wanted a child.
I have to look into it, I don't want his to be around my baby even if it means not having alimony. I think he firmly believed that after vasectomy, it was impossible to have children, he didn't tell me about the situation before and I was stupid to believe that everything was in order. I really wished I had more sex education and not grown up in an environment where it was so difficult to talk about these topics.
If this is truly what you want you need a lawyer yesterday.
You were not stupid. You trusted a man you loved. That’s not stupid. He might be. But you aren’t. You said it yourself, you didn’t get very good sex education. It’s not your fail that you don’t know what you cannot know of the information has never been presented to you. You did not even know to look up what he said to fact check him. Please try to stop beating yourself up. You have done nothing wrong.
The first thing he should have done before accusing you of anything was to go back and be tested.
Take him for all the money you can get. The best way to help someone like him to learn from his mistakes is to make them expensive. If he realizes there are consequences to ruining someone’s life over nothing, hopefully he won’t do it to someone else.
Yup. He cheated. He's TA.
Nope. Charles showed his true colors during the so called honeymoon phase. He’s a jerk and not worth your time.
FR, I only regret marrying him and not finding out what kind of person he is.
NTA. The relationship was destroyed the moment he didn’t belive you. There is nothing to salvage here. Plus, who cares what anyone thinks they are not the ones who were pregnant and homeless. Where were they when you needed support ? I am sorry you had to go through this. I hope he can at least be a supportive father.
Yes, it really was a very dark time and I am very spiteful, so there is no chance that I will forgive anyone, regarding support I still discuss it with my lawyer, I just want to be away from him, even if I don't get any money.
Nta, but I have a question. Did he give his Dr a post surgical sample and was he given the all clear to go unprotected? My son-in-law got his done in Feb after the birth of their 6th and he had to wait 90 days for the all clear.
I will speak with ignorance, but when I asked him when he had the vasectomy and since I had not noticed, he told me that it was a month before, and that the discomfort only lasted a week, we do not live together for religious reasons so I never saw him recover. He simply told me that the doctor told him that we could have sex, preferably with other contraceptive methods but we did not use it because for religious reasons he does not want to use it, he told me that the doctor was only a preventive measure contraceptive methods, but it was impossible for me to get pregnant.
Yeah he lied to you and tried to make you the bad guy! I hope nothing but the absolute best for you and your child. 🥰
Was your plan as a couple to be child free? He didn’t discuss with you at all that he got a vasectomy and instead went behind your back to get it done? Also the reason the doctor told him to use other methods for protection is because he **NEEDED** to get a follow up test to ensure it did not fail. Did he get the test? Was it confirmed by the doctor following the vasectomy that it hadn’t failed? Sounds like he didn’t listen to his doctor and did what he wanted. Not sure there was ever a reason to trust this man. He lies and manipulates to his benefit and then blames you when it doesn’t go his way. ETA: I read you said you didn’t want kids “at the moment”. So, YOU wanted them maybe at some point in the future, but he had a vasectomy? A vasectomy can be reversed, but doesn’t always work. Seems **HE** made the decision that your life would be child free, he just didn’t realize that sometimes they fail. I hope you kept evidence of his treatment of you. I don’t know what your laws are, but sometimes if you can prove abandonment of yourself and child they can be forced to pay support. Also then might not get any custody or visitation based on past actions. He doesn’t seem like a fit person to be a parent, I’d fight him on it.
You didn't live together for religious reasons, and he did want to use other contraceptives for religious reasons, but he got a vasectomy? Please make it make sense.
No, he didn't want to use contraception for religious reasons, only vasectomy and abstinence were acceptable, I don't know his family dynamics but in mine, it's just abstinence, he said vasectomy is okay because it's reversible. I knew his parents' opinion regarding abstinence, but not about vasectomy, later, I was embarrassed to ask about it besides that it was a matter between Charles and me.
NTAH Divorce him and move on. Block everyone else except John.
"he said vasectomy is okay because it's reversible." And using contraceptives isn't? A condom is a thousand times easier and less expensive to prevent a pregnancy but still leave the door open for a baby down the road.This still doesn't make any sense but also it's religious thinking so I can't say I'm all that surprised.
What religion allows vasectomy but not a condom? I am super confused.
condoms are reversible too. you can just take them off. I wouldn't marry this guy just because he's giant ignoramous or trying to totally bs you. or he was lying because he didn't want to be married which is probably why he wouldn't get a DNA test done. but now that his parents knew that it's his baby, they're going to make him get married to you
Why on earth he had vasectomy right before the wedding. Not to mention he live in a religious country?
Ignore the begging and apologies of Charles, your family, and your friends. They were not supportive of you, and you cannot count on these people ever. Do not pulled back into any relationship with them. Serious question—you speak really highly of John, and he seems to be a really wonderful person who is supportive of you. Would there be a chance of anything developing between you? If it does, please do not care what Charles, the family, or friends may say.
John is gay, it's somewhere in the comments.
Well, no John love story then, but he is still super sweet, and OP needs to stay away from Charles, the “friends,” and the family.
OP, get as much as possible from him. Your baby needs resources and you need to pay for therapy
I don’t really agree. The relationship was destroyed when he went scorched earth in his response without taking any steps to confirm his natural suspicion. He blew up every part of their lives and moved on without doing any research or basic checking to see if he might be wrong. That’s something beyond not believing OP. I don’t think I’d blame him for needing a paternity test, or having doubts. I do blame him for this. NTA. I also blame her family. Even if she had cheated, she was pregnant and vulnerable and they ostracized her. Cheating isn’t such a crime that it deserves that from your parents.
OP, get all the money, baby supplies, savings accounts, and everything you can from them. Then move the money into a different account only you can access and cut them off outside of child support. This way you'll have some of the support you were missing while pregnant and after the birth, but you won't be in contact with them anymore. Get what you can and get out.
And who would want to stay married to him, the vicious things he did to her And he’s went and got a girlfriend and is screwing her! He’s an Adulterer. I wouldn’t want his Dick in me after it’s been in another woman’s vaj. The man has no shame and no brains.
He's likely to end up getting his girlfriend knocked up as well if he's still going with this, I had a vasectomy line.
Absolutely agree. NTA at all. Trust and support are crucial, and he completely failed you when you needed him the most. Stay strong and focus on you and your baby.
Tell your lawyer to get full custody and child support. Even if you don’t need it. What he did was abuse so you are right for not going back. Plus he’s an idiot for not requesting a paternity test.
Full custody and child support.
NTA. Charles was supposed to be your rock, not a cliff for you to fall off of. Shout out to John for being an amazing person!
This. Cut out everyone from your baby’s life except for his uncle. NTA
1. He chose NOT TO LISTEN to you or give you the chance to explain yourself 2. He chose not to look for info about vasectomy as the last resource to salvage your marriage 3. He chose to treat you as garbage 4. He chose to miss the whole pregnancy and I’m guessing he didn’t pay for anything 5. HE GOT A GIRLFRIEND!!!! He was the one who destroyed your long-standing relationship, not you Now, please CHOOSE not to get back to him 🙏🏼
OP should copy and paste this in an email to all the people berating her for asking for divorce.
NTA- of course you’re aren’t the a hole. You’ve been through an incredibly traumatic emotional experience on top of the trauma of carrying and delivering a baby. I don’t know what to think about him casting you aside, other than that if you hadn’t consider genetic paternity testing in utero, than he certainly should have before allowing his newly pregnant wife to be homeless and friendless and feeling free to date other women. Of course you no longer feel safe in this relationship. What would happen the next time he feels validated in his mistrust? He didn’t speak to a doctor about his concerns or anything? Thank goodness for John.
Charles could have had his sperm checked. Did he? Everyone knows nothing is 100% effective. And he cheated on you during the time of your pregnancy and birth. The marriage is over. He is not someone you can count on ever!!!
You're supposed to drop at least 10 loads and then go get the 11th tested for sperm... he didn't do that. OP dodged a bullet, she found out the real Charles early on
You are right....we always strongly suggested males get 3 negative sperm samples and use other birth control until this is done. Have seen many oops babies.
A vasectomy is not considered successful until the one year test with no sperm... How did his doctor not tell him this or did he just not listen?
He didn't listen, obviously.
NTA. There isn’t a marriage to save here. Charles’ first stop should have been getting his sperm counts tested.
NTA. Why didn’t he go back to the Dr who performed the vasectomy and ask if this was possible? Why didn’t he ask to have his sperm count checked? Also anyone with access to the internet could have found out that this was possible. I know of someone who got pregnant after her husband had a vasectomy. Their dr explained that for about a month afterwards they should use protection. Also he would have to come back in to check his sperm count. Go through with the divorce.
He also didn’t tell her he had a vasectomy until a month after he had it done, on their wedding night, they were talking about having kids eventually and he didn’t tell her he was even considering one
NTA and he’s an absolute clown. He had a vasectomy *one month before*! He knows damn fine the doctor would have told him he needed to have a three monthly then annual clearance to make sure the vasectomy worked. He had ZERO right to do this to you and tell lies to his friends and family. He’s for the streets
I am a product of a vasectomy. You're right, he abandoned you at your most vulnerable . This is what you can expect from him in the future. God forbid you get a bad diagnosis medically. You will be on your own. I personally would cut off every single person who turned their back on me. You can't trust any of them ever again. This includes your parents. OP, look at your baby. Could you ever disown that child? Your parents abandoned you during pregnancy because you "shamed them". I don't care what anyone thinks.I love my children and stand by them till my dying breath, and in spirit too! Congratulations on your Beau baby OP. I'm glad you have John in your corner. UpdateMe
The loser didn't go for his follow up appointment to make sure that there was no sperm? Then he satmys you cheated? Fuck him... no Bueno. Continue with the divorce and don't look back. Maybe John is a good fit
NTA. Even if he had doubts, there was a better way to handle things
NTA. He also so quick having a girlfriend when he kick you out. He cheated on you and treated you like garbage. Proceed with the divorce. UpdateMe.
Something doesn’t add up. Charles is either a sneaky asshole, or a stupid asshole. OR (this is my choice) this isn’t real. If it is real and he’s a sneaky asshole that means he either didn’t get a vasectomy or he did, but he knew it wasn’t effective yet. With him wanting kids eventually I’m guessing he just wanted to raw dog you and never got one. The fact that his brother was on your side makes me think he knew something you didn’t. If he’s a stupid asshole that means he didn’t listen to the doctor to see if it worked. The way he reacted, he doesn’t deserve to be back in your life. Edit for an ignorant question: what religious reasons say no condoms? If it’s Catholic, then he should have practiced abstinence because you need to do Natural Family Planning since you don’t know your fertility cycles yet.
It's the timeliness that doesn't add up to me. OP said that her now-husband refused to have any sex before either being married, or having a vasectomy. Husband claims on wedding night that he had a vasectomy approximately one month prior. So, we'll say about four weeks. OP said she discovered the pregnancy during the honeymoon. Date of conception is normally considered to be the date of the first missed period. You normally wouldn't test for pregnancy unless you're showing signs of it, such as the missed period. And we're talking about a situation where the woman thinks her new husband had had a vasectomy. So the fact OP even tested for pregnancy *during their honeymoon* seems very random and paranoid given the context. What with the vasectomy and them having been abstinant, and all. If OP discovered the pregnancy on the honeymoon, they had to have conceived this baby *before* the vasectomy. Otherwise, OP only would have been *at the very most* four weeks pregnant, and wouldn't have had any reason yet to test for a pregnancy. And again, what? So, she was testing for pregnancy after only four or so weeks of having had sex for the very first time with a man who she believed had had a vasectomy? It's all just very strange.
OP you are doing the right thing!! He is such a hypocrite!! HE should have made sure he went to the final test AFTER his surgery to make sure there was no more active live sperm. Instead he jumped to cheating - which I think HE was doing - since he got a GF so soon after the news. HE has been a cheater all along is my bet. You OWE HIM NOTHING. You and your baby have a good a healthy life that you deserve.
Divorce Charles. The snake moved a girlfriend into his home while you were pregnant. It looks like he did not really want a relationship. I doubt he will ever have respect for you. You are better off without the dog.
NTA. Protect yourself against all of them that would throw you and your baby away without even listening to you. They didn't give you a chance. You don't have to give them one.
I got pregnant with a newer boyfriend who'd had a vasectomy years earlier and had had a long term partner who never got pregnant, so he had zero reason to think he was fertile. When I told him, I was anticipating he would at least question whether I had cheated (I had not). Didn't even occur to him, obviously he was surprised but he just went back to the doc and had it redone and triple checked. Not a single unkind word and we had not made any promises to each other. Charles is an ignorant child.
NTA. I'd dump every last person in your life who didn't believe you.
NTA, do not go back to him. Every single person who abandoned you can fuck off. They get no say or opinion.
Umm this guy got a girlfriend while his wife was pregnant - lady run he saved u a lot of Trouble
Um why did he have a vasectomy so young and unmarried? One month after a vasectomy is not a good time to test if the procedure worked. He was allowed a girlfriend why you were still legally married? You'd all seems a bit fishy.
The fact is, he treated you deplorably. He was disrespectful and cruel. His family and the friend circle are just as bad. There was nothing stopping him from going to a doctor to confirm things, but he chose to be so callous. You are right in continuing the divorce. I hope you are able to move away with baby and find some real friends so you have the support system you deserve. I wish you and your baby all the best. You brother in law is a gem. Keep him in your life. 🇦🇺💚🕊
fuck that guy don't go back. NTA. No birth control method is perfect and instead of jumping to conclusions he could've investigated it fucking respectfully.
It took me 8 months to get a clear test after my vasectomy. I masturbated twice a day. They told him before the procedure there was going to be a risk period after the procedure. He fucked up. Stick true to who you are.
NTA. Do not let people like this remain in your life without them performing some actions proving they’ve drastically, dramatically changed. You deserve much, much better than this. So does your child.
NTA. Did this asshole have his sperm tested after his vasectomy? He accused you of cheating but when he found out it was his child he was singing another tune. Don’t go back to him.
I would go NC with everyone and put his butt on child support. OP can do a lot better with a spouse, friends and family too. They owe you not the other way around.
I wouldn't let anybody back in my life who turned their back on me while I was pregnant. You don't owe any of them anything. I wonder if your husband already had that girlfriend before he accused you. NTA. I'm so glad John stepped up while everyone else stepped away. Congratulations on your baby and your new life.
Did your husband get the vasectomy done next to a dumpster behind a 7-11? You’re supposed to get your semen tested several times before having unprotected sex without fear of pregnancy. NTA. Your husband is an idiot.
NTA. He wasted no time tossing you aside. Move on. Make a wonderful life for yourself and your baby. Good luck.
NTA. I have two male colleagues that both had failed vasectomies which resulted in their wives getting pregnant. You know what the first thing they thought /said when their wives told them? “Oh shit, the vasectomy must have failed!” That is the response you deserved. Get rid of him and don’t look back.
I’d tell him, his family, all your friends, and your family that they all made a decision. And now Charles is living with that decision and child support for the rest of his life. You aren’t going to be married to a man who accused you of cheating & went out and got a new girlfriend he was parading around. Tank your old friends for telling you who they were. Tell them 0 chance in coming back to your life. They made a choice and now they can live with being on the wrong side of history. Tell them they should examine what relationships they all have closer because everyone saw how quick people in the group would turn on one of their own just based on an opinion and no fact. Tell his family, minus his brother, that as well. For your family… if you want them involved, tell them there’s a tax for 9 months of no support and vitriol through your pregnancy and you aren’t forgiving Charles or your friends, or his family. Tell your family they now have to earn everything back and the first thing they are going to do is publicly denounce Charles, his family, and all your old friends as liars.
You didn’t destroy the marriage over a stupid mistake, he did.
nope do not go back to this AH. His vasectomy was not full proof yet
The 7 points of the edited part sound like they could be almost any part of the US.
Your husband is ignorant. my husband had a snip snip and still got me pregnant two weeks after
NTA My mom had a friend get pregnant post vasectomy. After he beat her up, he found out he had a third testicle. And like others said, it takes time for a vasectomy to fully work. I'm sorry this happened. The way he treated you was horrible.
Of course you are NTA. You've been treated horribly through no fault of your own. Your husband doesn't even like you. Given that he had a vasectomy, he clearly didn't want children and you married him knowing that, so I'm assuming you didn't want them either. The situation you are in is entirely your husband's fault and I can assure you that life as a single parent is significantly better than life married to someone like him.
Your whole family is trash. Stay with your friend, John and live a great life. They don't deserve to ever hear from you again.
NTA. You have seen how your husband treats you if he even believes you have done something wrong even if you haven’t. Not only did he leave you, he got together with another woman, and got your entire family and all of your friends to shun and ostracize you. What will cause his mistreatment next time? For your own wellness, you should leave him.
Vasectomies fail a lot more often than people think. My daughter was born despite her father's vasectomy and me being on bc. If that baby wants to come into being, it's gonna happen. NTA your ex-husband was monstrous to you.
I don’t think a man as cruel as Charles deserves a second chance. He dragged you through the dirt.
NTA Get a lawyer and child support ASAP
NTA - You and your kid dodged a bullet.
I think he showed you who he was already with the way he treated you. If you don’t want to go back to that, that’s perfectly reasonable.
For religious reasons he doesn't want to use a condom, but would get a vasectomy? Can someone clarify if that's normal?
After a vasectomy you are TOLD by the doctor that you still have to use contraception for 3 months, and then get tested to make sure it worked before having unprotected sex
NTA. I'd cut them all out for the way they treated you.
NTA and please do what is right for your child and you. Seal him/her from the toxic families. Don’t let them have any influence on your child. You entitled for your feeling and think a divorce is a way to go. Take care of yourself and your mental health for the sake of your child
Sounds like after getting the vasectomy just like my neighbor's husband many years ago didn't go back to do the check to make sure it took the first time
NTA. Bottom line: this is a man who went scorched earth on you *before going to the doctor and running tests to check if there was viable spermatozoon’s in his sperm*.
NTA you would be doing yourself a disservice if you got back with him. Everyone abandoned and he cheated on you at your most vulnerable, especially when DNA tests are a thing prior to birth and if your husband had more than 2 braincells to know that pregnancy is still possible after a vasectomy, slim but not zero which is why he should've still been going to the doctor to check his count. I would cut communication off with everyone except the BIL.
I have a friend who had triplets after his vasectomy. Boy were they surprised.
Nope! You deserve better. He was so quick to move on.. like he never really trusted you.. you’re not an asshole. Stay strong.💪
He just wanted a reason to go screw someone else. I mean thinking logically it would be the smartest thing to get a dna test before anyone blows up. And everyone knows that a vasectomy isn’t 100% baby proof. Was your ex husband an idiot or he was just looking for a way out of the marriage. Regardless the damage is done. He got with another woman. Your intimate life will never be the same again with him. Don’t take him back.
Funny everyone around you is so concerned about taboo subjects and there a slut cheating wife but nobody has a problem with Charles a married man having a girlfriend and treating you like scum your entire pregnancy. All of them can go fuck themselves. I wish you were in America instead of where you are now. Sad. Don’t know what to tell you to do.
In case someone here hasn’t already said it: when people show you who they are, believe them.
You're definitely NTA. Trust is key in any relationship, and what he did was pretty unforgivable. Focusing on your baby and yourself is the right move. Stay strong!
NTA. Everyone knows that vasectomies aren’t a 1000% effective. But to give them the best shot you have to wait and have check ups to make sure that it took effect. That takes at least what 6 months but he was so sure after just a month that he kicked you out and got himself a girlfriend oh fuck no. He wouldn’t be forgiven for that. I wouldn’t be forgiving any of them that turned on you. They don’t deserve it.
NTA They want you to stay married, then they can ease their guilt that they threw you out and treated you like garbage when you did. Nothing wrong. They are thinking of themselves, not you. If you get divorced they will feel guilty in the role they played which destroyed the family. AND THEY SHOULD. It also didn’t take your husband long to find a new gf. He doesn’t give a sh** about you. It’s now about appearance and saving face. His family will also want him to repair the relationship so they have larger access to the baby.
This happens - he was beyond out of line. I would cut everyone out of your life. And blast them publicly. And the timing of dna test is not only on you. You don’t own the mistake. That’s everyone;s fault.
NTA. In marriage, you are supposed to find yourself with a partner who will be there to support you in the times you need it most. Not only did Charles not support you, but he was directly responsible for causing the trials with his accusatory, reactionary, burn-the-house-down response. They want you to forgive "a small mistake"? You were alone and isolated, completely ostracized, from what should have been *multiple* support groups for you, since not only was his family cutting you out, but so was your friend group. There are some things that I could never forget or ever forgive. This is definitely one of them. I would never be able to lay in bed with this man, share a house with him, build a life with him, without being haunted by the memory of what he had done. I would never be able to trust him again. You are NTA.
I wouldn't let a single one of them back in my life. There is no excuse for their behavior. None.
NTA, honestly, your ex is an idiot. You have to go back and get your sperm tested. I'm sure the doctor told him this. It took my husband 3 months to be cleared. Everyone involved in shaming you is ignorant, and this whole thing could have been cleared up with a Google search. So, instead of cheating, he cheated by having a girlfriend before you were even divorced.
NTA. After you’ve seen how horribly they can treat you the only answer is going NC for each and everyone of them. Nothing is keeping them from doing that same sh$t the next time they deem your behavior unacceptable. But now it’s not just you who could be hurt. Be the protective mama bear by using the strength you found while you were pregnant. You know better than letting them back in and potentially have contact with your baby.
NTA. Divorce him, go NC with everyone who treated you like dirt and abandoned you at your most vulnerable. They don’t deserve you or your baby in their miserable lives. Best wishes to you op.