Before I went to college, I was a roofer... back in 1998.
Fall protection wasn't even an option. As a 19 year old with very little in the way of job prospects, I had zero options. To be fair, the roofs were mostly 5/12, and the eves weren't much more than 10' from the ground. As a young guy I was pretty agile, and I'm sure I could have bounced.
As to the question "why"?
A mix of exploitation and ignorance.
because fall protection often trips people more than saves them. it’s a simple as that.
fall protection is to protect yourself for insurance. because they require it, you have to wear it. now reddit seems to be all about rules for some reason. and they aren’t practical, generally speaking.
don’t J walk either. very dangerous. and don’t even think about riding a motorcycle. life is full of danger and when are rules about it, you can bet reddit is all in.
Every fuckin kid alive has been yelled at to get off the roof.
So every damn adult can't say they were exploited.
Like you knife you can get hurt
Just say stupid.
Than roofing?
Exploitation implies the worker didn't know any better, or have another safer choice.
People need to get to work but don't walk along the edge of a bridge above shark infested waters to get there.
If you can look at something and know it's dangerous as fuck, you're the moron for taking it if the employer offers no protection.
Hey, you wanna feed crocodiles by hand? $30 and hour!
Good thing life offers more than two options.
Ditch digger flagger landscaper etc
There's a lot of other options that don't involve risking your life.
And we all know this.
Do electricians just work live cuz they have no choice, then blow off their hand? No.
They can always turn it off and are trained to.
They just choose not to.
The amount of workplace injuries related to employees ignoring employer policy is astounding.
The best part, is the same bosses knowingly hiring undocumented workers. Scream the loudest about undocumented people in the states ruining everything.
I've always said that if you truly want to curb illegal immigration, a fucking border wall is the dumbest thing ever. All you have to do is go ham on the assholes hiring them. Fine of $250k and one year in prison per offense. Reward of $250k and a fast track to US citizenship for any whistleblowers. It'll fix the issue so fast the Republican party's head would collectively spin.
We know they won't do it because everyone with half a brain knew illegal immigration kept their profits high, and the border wall was just something to get the idiots riled up about. Then they accidentally went and elected one of those idiots that almost turned it into a reality.
Said this for years, and most of the time it’s referring to Mexicans coming. What exactly am I supposed to hate? Good honest hard workers, strong family values, good food, fun people to be around, respectful children, strong catholic faith? Mexican Americans are essentially what the Republican Party says they advocates for.
Mexican Americans don't like to just get into gang fights,
they like flowers and music and white girls named Debbie too.
Mexican Americans are named Chata and Chella and chemma
and have a son in law named jeff.
Mexican Americans don't like to get up early in the morning
but they have to so they do it real slow.
Mexican Americans love education so they go to night school
and take spanish and get a B.
Mexican Americans love their Nana's and their Nono's and their
Nina's and their Nino's........ Nano Nano Nina Nono!
The fines would actually have to hurt. When the amount of the fine is less than profit, most companies will just account for it.
A few years ago, one of the factories where I grew up was busted for hiring undocumented workers. It was later discovered that there was a woman in HR that hired them knowing they were undocumented. Not only did she know they were undocumented, she actually helped them falsify documents. Obviously she got caught. Her punishment though? A hefty severance package and a forced early retirement, which is obviously not a punishment.
Nobody wants to fix it because they'd lose an election time topic.
Offer work permits, do background checks, and have requirements for pay and housing.
I watch those border security shows on YouTube and I’m fond of the UK version. In some segments, the British equivalent of the ICE goes out to a business or a house where they received info that some illegal migrants are working. They’ll go in and search every nook and cranny to see if anyone’s hiding and where their papers (usually passports) are. Then if anyone is found to be illegal, they’ll fine the owner like £1000 for each person while either detaining or deporting the illegals. Tho it’s kinda a joke because sometimes the illegals destroyed their papers so they get released. They’re told they have to check in with the immigration office, but usually end up disappearing.
They all subcontract with gig economy app companies. Just pay someone to “borrow” their account. The companies don’t care because it means they get loads of people clamouring to work for them who can’t really fight back against crappy terms. Public don’t care at the point of use because cheap delivery. Making Deliveroo account holders legally responsible for people they “lend” accounts to would do way more than all that Rwanda rubbish.
They typically aren't the same people. They may come from similar backgrounds, but the guys doing the hiring on these jobs are not the ones complaining. To the extent people in those circles do complain, it is largely because competitive bids for jobs requires you to cut labor costs. For some contractors that means hiring illegal immigrants. For others, it means doing a lot more work that they usually hire out
I laughed when my buddy hired the guy to do his roof who undercut the other bids by like 30% and wanted to be paid in cash.
I guess it’s easier to underbid if you don’t pay taxes LOL.
Undercutting excuses in a lot of trades is a load of bollox anyway and tends to not happen nearly as much as people like to suggest. Usually it just means profits are diverted into one fatter wallet and brown envelopes pass around.
In my line of work, we would probably be under cut by others, but to the client overall cost more. They'd do a bad job and ask for more and more, whereas we would've stuck to our price or been upfront that the work they're expecting is beyond the quote.
Literally had this on one project, then they had the cheek to ask us to come in an test the other trades work because they couldn't trust them and it was a complete shit show.
Most the time though that other guy isn't charging less and typically takes the Micky (i.e. unable to finish and whatever else) and they'll keep reusing them.
Brown envelopes. Brown envelopes everywhere.
This always baffled me. If these people pull off the level of restriction they want, they're going to be in for a rude awakening when construction, food, landscaping, etc. get that much more expensive. I work in the construction industry, and don't know any white people (myself included) that would work in the conditions that most of the immigrant workers have to suffer through. It's really a disgusting system.
Not true. Rich and poor Republicans are two separate groups with different goals. People hiring undocumented workers are not the same people who complain about immigrants.
And poor conservative blue collar workers complaining about undocumented workers taking their jobs. But instead of being mad at the big boss hiring them, they just get upset at the dem president (never a republican one) for having the borders “wide open”.
Beyond that where do they set up the arrest system? Roofs are flat surfaces, there's no exposed beams to hook into. You can't drill through it to set one up because then you have holes for water to get through. If your arrest system is long enough to go from the beginning of the roof to the peak then it's probably long enough for you to hit the ground.
ETA: you guys downvote but I bet you've never worked in residential construction, you're not even required by OSHA to use a PFAS, only what's essentially a railing to stop you from falling should you roll off and you're only required to do that if working more than 20 ft in the air
Ridge anchors and roof carts exist and are used extensively depending on where you’re working.
Also the warning line/guardrail is only sufficient on low slope roofs, and OSHA requires fall protection even for roofers if they are exposed to a potential fall of greater than 6 feet. Although safety monitors are still technically allowable fall protection.
Psh I'm in the industry and the citizens are also just glad to have a job. Some felon records etc that just working and often getting paid cash is enough. I feel like a fucking dork telling my coworkers to buckle up when on the forklift but they just don't give a fuck. Safety is nice but unfortunately people take it for granted
Don’t be so quick to claim exploitation, have you ever actually sat down and had some real face-to-face with roofers?
A lot of those dudes don’t want that shit, they just don’t wanna wear it. They feel like it gets in the way and is annoying.
I'm not saying this is wise. I'm simply explaining what the reality is.
When you get comfortable with something with risks involved, you stop being as safe with it, assuming safety comes with drawbacks.
Perfect example isa sport I enjoy, mountain biking. You'll see novices and amateurs decked out in protective gear doing easier trails. And then you'll see experts on the hard jump trails wearing only basic protection. Because they're more comfortable.
For example, there was an incredibly experienced parachute instructor who had done (IIRC) tens of thousands of successful jumps, who died when he *forgot his parachute* once.
Better example is driving a car.
First few months you're freaked out, following all the rules, hands 10-2 looking around constantly. Few years later everyone's scrolling tiktok, eating a burrito, speeding, running lights.....etc. And 30k+ people die every year in cars in the US, and around a million are injured.
First few days on a roof are scary. Long ways down, get nervous on the ladder and close to the edges. A few years of that and not falling and you can run around up there and slide down the ladder in 2 seconds and stand on the edge and not even be phased.
I have a friend who is tense as hell in a car. When he explained why he was nervous about flying down the street in a giant machine around hundreds of strangers in giant machines it made me realize he’s the sane one.
> When you get comfortable with something with risks involved, you stop being as safe with it, assuming safety comes with drawbacks.
I've seen electricians swap light switches and outlets without switching breakers off.
Ok. Let's say I have fall protection. Where do I hook it to that doesn't intrude on my ability to work? And how much does this cost? And will the roofing company that uses this be able to match or beat quotes from companies that don't utilize it?
Aside from that, new shingles are extremely grippy, plus lower pitch roofs are less hazardous, and they can put 2x4 boards down for stability and move/remove them as needed.
Until it becomes cost-effective, it won't happen unless necessary.
I have lots of PPE that I could wear when doing certain things, but I choose to forgo it sometimes because I can work better/faster/with more dexterity, etc.
That’s true, and my cousin had a roofing business with his friend and felt the same way, until that same friend fell off the roof and was paralyzed from the waist down.
Hey, that sounds exactly like my uncle! He got blown off a four storey roof and landed on his back while wearing no protective gear or being tied on. he's a quadriplegic now (I believe that is the term?)
He can move his neck, arms, etc. not his legs or anything below the waist really at all. He can't grip with his hands, everything below his wrists is limp. He can make his hands hold a bottle of beer and certain cups because his hands naturally curve around and he can basically wedge it into his hand.
He drives himself (but I believe his daughter helps him with many things like pulling the wheelchair out of the car etc) and has a ton of independence. He's incredibly thankful for being alive and all that he can do.. but obviously he'd rather not be disabled.
Never risk your safety to work a bit faster.
Yeah, loss of hands=quad. Medically, an injury to cervical spinal cord region.
Source: am C5 quadriplegic from a house construction fall. I don't recommend it, even for the parking.
Thanks :) he's a very strong willed and amazing dude.
And I appreciate that, what would it be called then if he basically has no feelings below his waist then? (If you had your arms down at your sides and drew a line across your waist, it would be about wrist height, so I'll say that lol)
Quads have all four limbs affected, but they aren’t necessarily without any use of all four. Wheelchair rugby is all quads and they’re all able to operate manual wheelchairs. Some might have total loss of function, but it’s not necessarily all.
Ah, so there's no general distinction between those who have use of their wrists and fingers, rather just between having use of the arms overall or not?
Appreciate the clarification ☺️
Oh whoops, I didn't read that he can't really use his hands. You're probably right that partial paralysis would qualify as quadriplegic. Either way, appreciate you sharing. Hopefully it clicks with some young person that life changes in an instant of you aren't careful
I won't argue the efficiency of not using fall protection. There's no question about that. But you said it won't happen unless necessary. It is literally law that employers provide a workplace free from known hazards, and there are standards directly correlated to fall protection. So, in America (and most other countries) it is necessary. Falls from heights is one of the most common workplace injuries including fatal injuries, and one of the most frequently cited regulations by osha. Plenty of people have shared their stories of themselves or loved ones that have suffered from those injuries. Ya know what happens to those workers? They're off work making a fraction of the money that they would if they could just go to work, or not being paid at all. Many have lifelong disabilities as a result. A vast majority of those people never thought it could happen to them, until it happened to them.
As annoying as it is to take the time and effort to do things safely, it really could save your life. I'm sure your family doesn't want you crippled.
I like to ask my employees to think of the one or two people they love the most and ask if they would be comfortable with those loved ones doing your job at your company in the same way that you do it. If not, then you're probably doing something wrong and should make the necessary changes.
it's also cheaper to cancel your auto insurance if you dont plan on getting into accidents...
...and you sure can get to places quicker if you speed rather than obeying the speed limit.
...and its much cheaper to buy a used car that wont pass inspection due to missing brake lights, turn signals, and no air bags.
I've seen those 2x4's give out. I get it for sure but those 2x4s give false sense of security. The 20 yr old I saw fall off it died from opiod OD after he went on pain meds from the fall
The employee's safety shouldnt be determined by the companies bottom line. They already make enough money ripping the employee's labor off. not worth giving you life to something that doesnt give a fuck about you no matter how many times they say they do.
Every time someone complains about fall protection the money calculators come out like it’s a “gotcha”
That’s exactly why you are an asshole. Money over people every time.
Absolutely moronic comment. You’re getting lucky, I don’t disagree that you can work faster without it, but at some point your luck is going to run out.
Been a union ironworker for over a decade now, and I’ve worked with morons who forego safety for speed. Usually doesn’t end well.
look there are two kinds of people. one get on a roof and get the job done while the other complains about safety.
One of those people tend to get hired way more than the other. So you see them working more. It's pretty simple really.
>because I can work better/faster/with more dexterity,
That's pretty cool you can make more money for your boss while forgoing personal safety. If you are the boss, I'm happy for you. All these whiners crying about their concussions, get a life. Also, if you are the boss, I am happy for you. So many whiners can't deal with a little concussion. By the way, if you are the boss, that's great.
I could be wrong, but I think Maxasaurus was referring to the 2x4s that roofers often temporarily and incrementally nail to the roof parallel to the roof edge to aid traction by turning the roof surface into quasi-steps. You’re going to nail couch cushion foam to the roof for this?
You don't nail them. Watch roofers use them one time.
It essentially does the same thing- they don't move when you stand on them, they're grippy af.
Those Mexican roofers got this shit figured out.
The best response so far. When I laid shingles (2010), we only used fall protection on one roof; it was the tallest roof we had done all summer, had a steep slope, and overlooked a highway. But it took so much longer and so much more effort to work using the harnesses.
I don't think I ever even slipped while running across the plank staging in my 3 months. We did have a guy fall off one roof, but it's because he was walking backwards while talking to someone and tripped over an air line. The guy who fell was ok because he fell into some bushes and it was a single story roof.
that's exactly why it isnt cheaper in the long run... op said its cheaper to not buy safety gear because they dont plan to obey the law anyway.
ie, if someone is injured they will ghost them or fold the compamy/fba/corp and create a new one.
whats funny is even that cost money, and likely more than the PPE. So OP is playing a game of chance.
ie, it does end up cheaper if nobody actually has an accident just like its cheaper to not buy hazard/house ins if no hurricanes hit or to cancel your auto ins when you dont plan to have any accidents.
nah... theyre just pointing out the "cost effective" part OP is glazing over. thats a single line that a lot of folks dont calculate correctly. It's only cheaper if you ignore the risk OR dont obey the law. not buying ppe is of course cheaper as long as you are not responsible for the consequences.
a single lawsuit will bankrupt a small company but usually the workers are undocumented and easily intimidated and/or dont even realize they were wrong.
Dumb comment. Nearly every OSHA safety standard was written in blood.
I’m a union ironworker, obviously different from a roofer, but I was on a jobsite that someone fell off a 4ft ladder and died. Not saying he should have been tied off, but harness and tie offs are incredibly important. I fucking hate them, and they slow me down, but I’m tying off every time. I get paid by the hour.
It’s not the truth at all as it’s only “cheaper” until the inevitable accident. And then you’re dead, paralyzed or otherwise permanently injured in a way no amount of saved money can fix… or you’re bankrupt because it happened to someone on your payroll.
I see your bid is quite a bit higher than the others I've gotten. Can you explain what this "personnel protection fee $3000" line item? The other bids also say it can be done in 2 days, yours is 4. I think I'll pass.
I've been labor on 2 shingle roof replacements and one metal roof. I think professionals will use safety devices when the pitch is extreme or the height has a high risk of injury. For normal pitch shingle roof I never felt a danger of slipping or falling. If u did fall an 8ft roof height is not gonna hurt you too bad unless you just land in a bad bodily position. Metal roofs are scary in early morning and evening as dew collects quickly and it's easy to slip. Outside of those times it's similarly stable.
I worked on a project in New Orleans where a subcontractor tied himself off to a beam, somebody else cut the beam as part of their SOW, and the first guy ended up falling onto the sidewalk. He was taken away quickly and we never found out what happened to him. Likely undocumented and clearly untrained, but he got messed up pretty bad.
People opt not to use gear that hampers their movement. The stuff gets in the way. Lots of safety measures are like that. Sometimes comfort, sometimes speed or dextarity. Life is just easier without that stuff and they accept the risk.
Yes. Do you have a point to make? People will still continue to do it. My point isn't abouit what is right or wrong. I am describing the fact of human behavior. It is what people DO do.
how do you read what I wrote and then assume I had some "right/wrong" point to make.
read better or something, or get that chip off your shoulder bubs.
my comment was a shitpost that backed up the shit you were saying. yet your reply to me is like... combative LOL
As an someone who roofed houses for 13 years, it's cause they are many times more often the direct cause of an injury than a preventer of one. It's just that the ones they prevent are much more severe than the one's they cause. Furthermore a common method of how roofers get paid is by the square meter and the ropes slow you down so much that you can go from effectivity making 40+ an hour to less than minimum wage. They constantly get snagged, tangled, or you stepping on it and it rolls out from un⁶derfoot. Fuck those things. It's one of those rules that was obviously written by someone who's never roofed a day in their lives
Yeah companies can get fined up here if they don't provide it and also if they don't enforce rules mandating their use. Then employees can get fined as well if not using it when they're provided it.
Since the workers compensation board, which is basically work insurance plus incedent investigators that all workers in Canada get, is a arm of the government they rather pass rules that makes people use safety equipment and enforce safety standards if it meant less money being paid out to employees who've gotten injured at work.
You’ve never roofed I see. It’s a 1”-1.25” diameter rope that’s hooked to your back and lays right in front of you as you work. It impedes your speed there, plus moving around a roof with 4-6 ropes all tied in to the peak, while navigating the other guys up in the roof becomes a nightmare and dangerous. I’ve rolled my ankle on a roof because of this fact. The guy above you isn’t incorrect
These commenters remind me of the askmechanics subreddit when someone asks a question and all the laymen show up with their Chris fix expertise talking about the proper torque and then the real knuckle busters are like “turn that bolt into liquid”
You can choose to believe it or not but, as someone who has also shingled 100s of houses, it is absolutely true that they cause more accidents that they prevent. You know how many times I’ve almost fallen off a roof? Zero. You know how many times I’ve stepped on or tripped over a rope? At least 30.
Sure. You get used to walking back to where you just came from just have your rope get caught on a tiny nail and jersey you back. Sur%e you get used to carrying a bundle of singles back to (rom underfoot ;;b either of them making you fall cause you can't really *&y7see ; feet while carrying a bundle. Sure you can get used to _ on a run just to get jerked away from it cause neither you nor your co worker noticed them getting tangled together&. But as you can imagine getting used to this stuff happening doesn't make working with it any easier or faster.
Basically because people don't fall off roofs very often and it's not worth it for Osha or Worksafe to go after small companies. It's the same with painting, if anyone tried to force me to use fall protection I'd just quit. To me falling off a roof or ladder is like driving into a concrete overpass . . . . don't do that.
Roofing is currently the [second deadliest job in the US](https://www.constructiondive.com/news/construction-fatalities-2023-bls-falls-safety/702974/) (after logging)
Where would they hook the fall arrest to that wouldn't require it to be long enough that it's of no use? Roofs are flat, you don't have beams to hook into. They're also pitched so it's longer than it looks. If you think you can screw an arrest system into the roof well that would ruin its ability to shed water.
the ppe is like 300usd, basic harnass, 150ft of rope you tie onto a tree on the other side of the roof and a autolocking thing that follows you when slowly pulling/feeding cable
That's called a rope grab by the way. Does every house have a tree nearby? Have you tried carrying bundles of shingles while using one? They sometimes lock up while walking. What about the pendulum effect? How far does your lanyard stretch before it actually stops? You'll likely fall 18' before the system actually arrests your fall. Now what? You've still gotta content with heat and you've added a lot more insulation oh and more shit to trip over while carrying those bundles since you know it takes more than one guy to roof a home.
There's some industries in which employers exploit a perception that the work is unskilled and entry level. They structure their recruitment to hire desperate people who won't quit or organize over bad working conditions. For example undocumented or legal but fresh off the boat immigrants, ex-cons and parolees, work visa laborers, and otherwise unemployable resumes. The grift revolves around keeping costs low while targeting contracts in storm damaged areas for surcharge pricing as revenue. It otherwise wouldn't be a good business model except for the opportunistic highway robbery tactics.
We just watched a crew do a neighbors house with 0 protection. We happen to know this company from looking into it when we had our roof done last spring. They are a small family owned shop and only 4 guys showed up, definitely not undocumented workers or anything. They clearly were not interested in using it.
I'm my industry there just simply isn't a realistic option for fall protection most of the time. I'm more concerned about heat... working 8 hours in a 110 degree plus environment is pretty shitty.
It takes longer time, because of this it costs more both in labor cost and the overhead costs of the safety equipment and the cost of training employees, because of this they get hired less. So less people opt to use it. Like it's not a hard thing to realize why it happens. You need your roof done. Do you go for the guys that have safety equipment, cost 1500 and are gonna take 3 days. Or are you gonna go to the guys who say they can do it in 1 day for 800. It's not a hard idea to understand.
Hahaha. I’m 50 and have never seen a roofer wearing/using fall protection. Roofing companies know the majority of their employees can’t get a job anywhere else so they will treat them like shit and pay the barest minimum for protection.
Same reason why chefs use a mandolin without the guard or cut resistant gloves, because they’re used to it, and the “inconvenience” of using the safety gear is inconvenient.
Usually for the same reason you don't put a seat belt on top go for a short drive. You're used it to and so you're complacent and willfully ignoring the danger because it's normal. That or the boss won't provide it, sadly most people won't risk their job and will instead choose to risk their lives.
Fell off a 30' ladder with an 80lb pack of shingles slung on my shoulder. Never again. Also, my employer was an actual neo nazi, so there's that as well. Fuck roofing.
IME construction bosses hate safety and discourage it bc it slows work down and wastes money. I caught huge shit for not standing on top of ladders and reaching into 17KV transformer boxes without any PPE. They wouldn't even provide safety goggles when drilling holes in ceilings.
Have a brother that is a roofer for 20 years. He thinks that it's unnecessary and it slows them down. You know what else slows him down? Falling off of roofs and hurting himself....which he's done many times and now hobbles like he's 20-30 years older than he is. So basically, it's stupidity.
I installed Directv as a kid, that meant climbing a ladder and sometimes working on a roof.
About the time I left they started requiring fall protection anytime you went over 5feet up a ladder.
Let me tell you, my production was 1/3 of what it was before the fall protection. as an industry that used to pay by the job and not by the hour let me tell you the fall protection was absolutely hated by everyone.
I climbed ladders for 10+ years, and I feel safer going up a ladder unhindered with a helmet on compared to having ropes and added weight all around me. Could I fall? sure. still wasnt worth it.
The risk is so minimally small and the equipment and time it took to reduce that risk was way too much.
Simple solution. Send out inspectors. Everyone on a roof with no protection gets arrested. Also the supervisor.
Source: Worked in Workers Compensation, read claims files. You have no idea how bad it can be. And you don’t know how small a fall it takes.
You accept risk every day. Driving on the street. Walking by cars. Interacting with people. Exposing yourself to the sun. Had a friend lose his arm in a car accident because he was 4 hours away from any hospital. Grandpa died from black lung from mining. Uncle got cancer from being an airplane pilot. I go hiking in grizzly country just with pepper seasoning.
You chose your risks you are fine with and go on living or you hold up in a bunker and still die at the end.
Before I went to college, I was a roofer... back in 1998. Fall protection wasn't even an option. As a 19 year old with very little in the way of job prospects, I had zero options. To be fair, the roofs were mostly 5/12, and the eves weren't much more than 10' from the ground. As a young guy I was pretty agile, and I'm sure I could have bounced. As to the question "why"? A mix of exploitation and ignorance.
I know a young guy that died falling about 4ft off a deck. His head made contact with the ground first.
Life pro tips are always in the comments.
What’s the LPT here? Fall head first and end it fast?
Aim for the bushes
🤜🤛 🤸🏿♂️🤸🏽♂️ 🎶There goes my hero...🎵
That's what she said.
Or to not fall on your head at all!
because fall protection often trips people more than saves them. it’s a simple as that. fall protection is to protect yourself for insurance. because they require it, you have to wear it. now reddit seems to be all about rules for some reason. and they aren’t practical, generally speaking. don’t J walk either. very dangerous. and don’t even think about riding a motorcycle. life is full of danger and when are rules about it, you can bet reddit is all in.
Dude you have absolutely no source for this absolute nonsense of a claim 🤣
Have you never heard of a fence or scaffolding?
Every fuckin kid alive has been yelled at to get off the roof. So every damn adult can't say they were exploited. Like you knife you can get hurt Just say stupid.
We need money to survive. That's how they are exploited. They don't have a better option.
Than roofing? Exploitation implies the worker didn't know any better, or have another safer choice. People need to get to work but don't walk along the edge of a bridge above shark infested waters to get there. If you can look at something and know it's dangerous as fuck, you're the moron for taking it if the employer offers no protection. Hey, you wanna feed crocodiles by hand? $30 and hour!
If it's between being a roofer today or getting evicted tomorrow with no one to take you in, which would you choose?
Good thing life offers more than two options. Ditch digger flagger landscaper etc There's a lot of other options that don't involve risking your life. And we all know this. Do electricians just work live cuz they have no choice, then blow off their hand? No. They can always turn it off and are trained to. They just choose not to. The amount of workplace injuries related to employees ignoring employer policy is astounding.
What, are the undocumented workers going to tell their boss that they're breaking the law? No, probably not. Exploitation comes in all forms.
The best part, is the same bosses knowingly hiring undocumented workers. Scream the loudest about undocumented people in the states ruining everything.
I've always said that if you truly want to curb illegal immigration, a fucking border wall is the dumbest thing ever. All you have to do is go ham on the assholes hiring them. Fine of $250k and one year in prison per offense. Reward of $250k and a fast track to US citizenship for any whistleblowers. It'll fix the issue so fast the Republican party's head would collectively spin. We know they won't do it because everyone with half a brain knew illegal immigration kept their profits high, and the border wall was just something to get the idiots riled up about. Then they accidentally went and elected one of those idiots that almost turned it into a reality.
Said this for years, and most of the time it’s referring to Mexicans coming. What exactly am I supposed to hate? Good honest hard workers, strong family values, good food, fun people to be around, respectful children, strong catholic faith? Mexican Americans are essentially what the Republican Party says they advocates for.
Mexican Americans don't like to just get into gang fights, they like flowers and music and white girls named Debbie too. Mexican Americans are named Chata and Chella and chemma and have a son in law named jeff. Mexican Americans don't like to get up early in the morning but they have to so they do it real slow. Mexican Americans love education so they go to night school and take spanish and get a B. Mexican Americans love their Nana's and their Nono's and their Nina's and their Nino's........ Nano Nano Nina Nono!
Mexican Americans like to answer telephones, and say "hello" to whoever is on the other side.
Y know, while you were singing that, I wrote another tune. It's like the same thing, only different.
But they aren't white enough for the GOP. Racism uber alles.
The fines would actually have to hurt. When the amount of the fine is less than profit, most companies will just account for it. A few years ago, one of the factories where I grew up was busted for hiring undocumented workers. It was later discovered that there was a woman in HR that hired them knowing they were undocumented. Not only did she know they were undocumented, she actually helped them falsify documents. Obviously she got caught. Her punishment though? A hefty severance package and a forced early retirement, which is obviously not a punishment.
I’d actually say we should do this because they keep fucking around too much. I do want illegal immigrants to get paid though
Nobody wants to fix it because they'd lose an election time topic. Offer work permits, do background checks, and have requirements for pay and housing.
I watch those border security shows on YouTube and I’m fond of the UK version. In some segments, the British equivalent of the ICE goes out to a business or a house where they received info that some illegal migrants are working. They’ll go in and search every nook and cranny to see if anyone’s hiding and where their papers (usually passports) are. Then if anyone is found to be illegal, they’ll fine the owner like £1000 for each person while either detaining or deporting the illegals. Tho it’s kinda a joke because sometimes the illegals destroyed their papers so they get released. They’re told they have to check in with the immigration office, but usually end up disappearing.
They all subcontract with gig economy app companies. Just pay someone to “borrow” their account. The companies don’t care because it means they get loads of people clamouring to work for them who can’t really fight back against crappy terms. Public don’t care at the point of use because cheap delivery. Making Deliveroo account holders legally responsible for people they “lend” accounts to would do way more than all that Rwanda rubbish.
I think you responded to the wrong comment haha
Nope. I’m talking about how illegal immigrants can easily find employment in the UK.
They typically aren't the same people. They may come from similar backgrounds, but the guys doing the hiring on these jobs are not the ones complaining. To the extent people in those circles do complain, it is largely because competitive bids for jobs requires you to cut labor costs. For some contractors that means hiring illegal immigrants. For others, it means doing a lot more work that they usually hire out
Doesn’t seem like there’s a lot of price undercutting going on based on quotes to fix anything in my house
I laughed when my buddy hired the guy to do his roof who undercut the other bids by like 30% and wanted to be paid in cash. I guess it’s easier to underbid if you don’t pay taxes LOL.
Undercutting excuses in a lot of trades is a load of bollox anyway and tends to not happen nearly as much as people like to suggest. Usually it just means profits are diverted into one fatter wallet and brown envelopes pass around. In my line of work, we would probably be under cut by others, but to the client overall cost more. They'd do a bad job and ask for more and more, whereas we would've stuck to our price or been upfront that the work they're expecting is beyond the quote. Literally had this on one project, then they had the cheek to ask us to come in an test the other trades work because they couldn't trust them and it was a complete shit show. Most the time though that other guy isn't charging less and typically takes the Micky (i.e. unable to finish and whatever else) and they'll keep reusing them. Brown envelopes. Brown envelopes everywhere.
This always baffled me. If these people pull off the level of restriction they want, they're going to be in for a rude awakening when construction, food, landscaping, etc. get that much more expensive. I work in the construction industry, and don't know any white people (myself included) that would work in the conditions that most of the immigrant workers have to suffer through. It's really a disgusting system.
I lived in Phoenix for over a decade, can confirm.
Not true. Rich and poor Republicans are two separate groups with different goals. People hiring undocumented workers are not the same people who complain about immigrants.
And poor conservative blue collar workers complaining about undocumented workers taking their jobs. But instead of being mad at the big boss hiring them, they just get upset at the dem president (never a republican one) for having the borders “wide open”.
Is it illegal though? I dont think I've ever seen them wearing fall supports. I am in lousiana so roofs get replaced all the damn time.
Because every legally documented and Hispanic owned roofing company uses harnesses......
Beyond that where do they set up the arrest system? Roofs are flat surfaces, there's no exposed beams to hook into. You can't drill through it to set one up because then you have holes for water to get through. If your arrest system is long enough to go from the beginning of the roof to the peak then it's probably long enough for you to hit the ground. ETA: you guys downvote but I bet you've never worked in residential construction, you're not even required by OSHA to use a PFAS, only what's essentially a railing to stop you from falling should you roll off and you're only required to do that if working more than 20 ft in the air
Ridge anchors and roof carts exist and are used extensively depending on where you’re working. Also the warning line/guardrail is only sufficient on low slope roofs, and OSHA requires fall protection even for roofers if they are exposed to a potential fall of greater than 6 feet. Although safety monitors are still technically allowable fall protection.
Psh I'm in the industry and the citizens are also just glad to have a job. Some felon records etc that just working and often getting paid cash is enough. I feel like a fucking dork telling my coworkers to buckle up when on the forklift but they just don't give a fuck. Safety is nice but unfortunately people take it for granted
Don’t be so quick to claim exploitation, have you ever actually sat down and had some real face-to-face with roofers? A lot of those dudes don’t want that shit, they just don’t wanna wear it. They feel like it gets in the way and is annoying.
Yeah. Having to work with overbearing/uncomfortable harnesses or similar arguably presents just as many safety concerns as it prevents.
I'm not saying this is wise. I'm simply explaining what the reality is. When you get comfortable with something with risks involved, you stop being as safe with it, assuming safety comes with drawbacks. Perfect example isa sport I enjoy, mountain biking. You'll see novices and amateurs decked out in protective gear doing easier trails. And then you'll see experts on the hard jump trails wearing only basic protection. Because they're more comfortable.
Comfort kills when it comes to dangerous tasks. People get complacent and stop doing things the safe way and eventually they get hurt or killed.
For example, there was an incredibly experienced parachute instructor who had done (IIRC) tens of thousands of successful jumps, who died when he *forgot his parachute* once.
That just one of those fall protection safety devices that the pros don’t need.
I agree with you. I'm one of the very people guilty of this. And I've been known to say almost exactly what you said. "Complacency is a killer"
Better example is driving a car. First few months you're freaked out, following all the rules, hands 10-2 looking around constantly. Few years later everyone's scrolling tiktok, eating a burrito, speeding, running lights.....etc. And 30k+ people die every year in cars in the US, and around a million are injured. First few days on a roof are scary. Long ways down, get nervous on the ladder and close to the edges. A few years of that and not falling and you can run around up there and slide down the ladder in 2 seconds and stand on the edge and not even be phased.
I have a friend who is tense as hell in a car. When he explained why he was nervous about flying down the street in a giant machine around hundreds of strangers in giant machines it made me realize he’s the sane one.
> When you get comfortable with something with risks involved, you stop being as safe with it, assuming safety comes with drawbacks. I've seen electricians swap light switches and outlets without switching breakers off.
Eh, worst thing it's gonna zap you a little, and pop the breaker anyway. even moreso in 120V places.
because my roof is 1.5/12
Ass like a pancake
Ok. Let's say I have fall protection. Where do I hook it to that doesn't intrude on my ability to work? And how much does this cost? And will the roofing company that uses this be able to match or beat quotes from companies that don't utilize it? Aside from that, new shingles are extremely grippy, plus lower pitch roofs are less hazardous, and they can put 2x4 boards down for stability and move/remove them as needed. Until it becomes cost-effective, it won't happen unless necessary. I have lots of PPE that I could wear when doing certain things, but I choose to forgo it sometimes because I can work better/faster/with more dexterity, etc.
That’s true, and my cousin had a roofing business with his friend and felt the same way, until that same friend fell off the roof and was paralyzed from the waist down.
Hey, that sounds exactly like my uncle! He got blown off a four storey roof and landed on his back while wearing no protective gear or being tied on. he's a quadriplegic now (I believe that is the term?) He can move his neck, arms, etc. not his legs or anything below the waist really at all. He can't grip with his hands, everything below his wrists is limp. He can make his hands hold a bottle of beer and certain cups because his hands naturally curve around and he can basically wedge it into his hand. He drives himself (but I believe his daughter helps him with many things like pulling the wheelchair out of the car etc) and has a ton of independence. He's incredibly thankful for being alive and all that he can do.. but obviously he'd rather not be disabled. Never risk your safety to work a bit faster.
Glad your Uncle is doing ok. Just FYI, quadriplegic is all four limbs being paralyzed. Paraplegic is just the legs.
He lost use of his hands too. I think that still qualifies but not sure.
Yeah, loss of hands=quad. Medically, an injury to cervical spinal cord region. Source: am C5 quadriplegic from a house construction fall. I don't recommend it, even for the parking.
Thanks :) he's a very strong willed and amazing dude. And I appreciate that, what would it be called then if he basically has no feelings below his waist then? (If you had your arms down at your sides and drew a line across your waist, it would be about wrist height, so I'll say that lol)
Quads have all four limbs affected, but they aren’t necessarily without any use of all four. Wheelchair rugby is all quads and they’re all able to operate manual wheelchairs. Some might have total loss of function, but it’s not necessarily all.
Quadri-plegic = four paralyzed limbs Paraplegic is lower body paralysis Both of which are good incentives to always make safety a priority
Ah, so there's no general distinction between those who have use of their wrists and fingers, rather just between having use of the arms overall or not? Appreciate the clarification ☺️
Oh whoops, I didn't read that he can't really use his hands. You're probably right that partial paralysis would qualify as quadriplegic. Either way, appreciate you sharing. Hopefully it clicks with some young person that life changes in an instant of you aren't careful
I won't argue the efficiency of not using fall protection. There's no question about that. But you said it won't happen unless necessary. It is literally law that employers provide a workplace free from known hazards, and there are standards directly correlated to fall protection. So, in America (and most other countries) it is necessary. Falls from heights is one of the most common workplace injuries including fatal injuries, and one of the most frequently cited regulations by osha. Plenty of people have shared their stories of themselves or loved ones that have suffered from those injuries. Ya know what happens to those workers? They're off work making a fraction of the money that they would if they could just go to work, or not being paid at all. Many have lifelong disabilities as a result. A vast majority of those people never thought it could happen to them, until it happened to them. As annoying as it is to take the time and effort to do things safely, it really could save your life. I'm sure your family doesn't want you crippled. I like to ask my employees to think of the one or two people they love the most and ask if they would be comfortable with those loved ones doing your job at your company in the same way that you do it. If not, then you're probably doing something wrong and should make the necessary changes.
it's also cheaper to cancel your auto insurance if you dont plan on getting into accidents... ...and you sure can get to places quicker if you speed rather than obeying the speed limit. ...and its much cheaper to buy a used car that wont pass inspection due to missing brake lights, turn signals, and no air bags.
EVERY roofer I've ever met falls sooner or later. Some are fucked up for life.
Same with lumberjacks. I know quite a few who have fallen from trees and gotten fucked up by it permanently.
Yeah, my buddy who broke his back falling off a roof also thought the safety gear was a pain in the butt.
I've seen those 2x4's give out. I get it for sure but those 2x4s give false sense of security. The 20 yr old I saw fall off it died from opiod OD after he went on pain meds from the fall The employee's safety shouldnt be determined by the companies bottom line. They already make enough money ripping the employee's labor off. not worth giving you life to something that doesnt give a fuck about you no matter how many times they say they do.
Every time someone complains about fall protection the money calculators come out like it’s a “gotcha” That’s exactly why you are an asshole. Money over people every time.
I hate people like you. “Well I can work faster if I am not safe, and create a culture that enforces this”
Absolutely moronic comment. You’re getting lucky, I don’t disagree that you can work faster without it, but at some point your luck is going to run out. Been a union ironworker for over a decade now, and I’ve worked with morons who forego safety for speed. Usually doesn’t end well.
Safety first. There’s no reason to sacrifice safety for speed. Slow is smooth and smooth is fast.
look there are two kinds of people. one get on a roof and get the job done while the other complains about safety. One of those people tend to get hired way more than the other. So you see them working more. It's pretty simple really.
>because I can work better/faster/with more dexterity, That's pretty cool you can make more money for your boss while forgoing personal safety. If you are the boss, I'm happy for you. All these whiners crying about their concussions, get a life. Also, if you are the boss, I am happy for you. So many whiners can't deal with a little concussion. By the way, if you are the boss, that's great.
You use the foam from couch cushions, so you don't have to put 2x4s down.
I could be wrong, but I think Maxasaurus was referring to the 2x4s that roofers often temporarily and incrementally nail to the roof parallel to the roof edge to aid traction by turning the roof surface into quasi-steps. You’re going to nail couch cushion foam to the roof for this?
You don't nail them. Watch roofers use them one time. It essentially does the same thing- they don't move when you stand on them, they're grippy af. Those Mexican roofers got this shit figured out.
The best response so far. When I laid shingles (2010), we only used fall protection on one roof; it was the tallest roof we had done all summer, had a steep slope, and overlooked a highway. But it took so much longer and so much more effort to work using the harnesses. I don't think I ever even slipped while running across the plank staging in my 3 months. We did have a guy fall off one roof, but it's because he was walking backwards while talking to someone and tripped over an air line. The guy who fell was ok because he fell into some bushes and it was a single story roof.
Roofing companies that don’t use it will fail to compete when they’re dead
Crazy that the roofing companies have been around for decades without all of them dying yet.
Always a supply of new roofers down at the orange store. It would have to be mandated by the municipality or government before you see it.
Down here we can't even mandate water breaks on 130 degree roofs.
I mean couldn’t their families sue for unsafe working conditions?
Yes. People upvoting this "I don't use the safety gear" moron are also morons.
that's exactly why it isnt cheaper in the long run... op said its cheaper to not buy safety gear because they dont plan to obey the law anyway. ie, if someone is injured they will ghost them or fold the compamy/fba/corp and create a new one. whats funny is even that cost money, and likely more than the PPE. So OP is playing a game of chance. ie, it does end up cheaper if nobody actually has an accident just like its cheaper to not buy hazard/house ins if no hurricanes hit or to cancel your auto ins when you dont plan to have any accidents.
Also folding your company won’t limit your liability for the stuff that happened previously if it was criminally negligent… yeah, I agree
People are mad because you're right, apparently.
nah... theyre just pointing out the "cost effective" part OP is glazing over. thats a single line that a lot of folks dont calculate correctly. It's only cheaper if you ignore the risk OR dont obey the law. not buying ppe is of course cheaper as long as you are not responsible for the consequences. a single lawsuit will bankrupt a small company but usually the workers are undocumented and easily intimidated and/or dont even realize they were wrong.
Dumb comment. Nearly every OSHA safety standard was written in blood. I’m a union ironworker, obviously different from a roofer, but I was on a jobsite that someone fell off a 4ft ladder and died. Not saying he should have been tied off, but harness and tie offs are incredibly important. I fucking hate them, and they slow me down, but I’m tying off every time. I get paid by the hour.
Pointing out objective reality doesn't mean I agree or disagree with anything. What he said is the truth.
It’s not the truth at all as it’s only “cheaper” until the inevitable accident. And then you’re dead, paralyzed or otherwise permanently injured in a way no amount of saved money can fix… or you’re bankrupt because it happened to someone on your payroll.
For the second time: I only pointed out people were downvoting him because what is said it how is in reality, not whether I agree with it or not.
Only really need it on steep roof houses. 5+ pitch in most states/areas
I see your bid is quite a bit higher than the others I've gotten. Can you explain what this "personnel protection fee $3000" line item? The other bids also say it can be done in 2 days, yours is 4. I think I'll pass.
I've been labor on 2 shingle roof replacements and one metal roof. I think professionals will use safety devices when the pitch is extreme or the height has a high risk of injury. For normal pitch shingle roof I never felt a danger of slipping or falling. If u did fall an 8ft roof height is not gonna hurt you too bad unless you just land in a bad bodily position. Metal roofs are scary in early morning and evening as dew collects quickly and it's easy to slip. Outside of those times it's similarly stable.
Do you only have single story houses in your area?
Essentially. Maybe 1 out of every 50 homes are 2 story. Though one of the shingle roofs I worked was half in a hill, so kinda 2 story.
I worked on a project in New Orleans where a subcontractor tied himself off to a beam, somebody else cut the beam as part of their SOW, and the first guy ended up falling onto the sidewalk. He was taken away quickly and we never found out what happened to him. Likely undocumented and clearly untrained, but he got messed up pretty bad.
People opt not to use gear that hampers their movement. The stuff gets in the way. Lots of safety measures are like that. Sometimes comfort, sometimes speed or dextarity. Life is just easier without that stuff and they accept the risk.
That’s how my boy Dale Earnhardt died doing what he loved That fucking HANS device shit just got in the way
Yes. Do you have a point to make? People will still continue to do it. My point isn't abouit what is right or wrong. I am describing the fact of human behavior. It is what people DO do.
how do you read what I wrote and then assume I had some "right/wrong" point to make. read better or something, or get that chip off your shoulder bubs. my comment was a shitpost that backed up the shit you were saying. yet your reply to me is like... combative LOL
As an someone who roofed houses for 13 years, it's cause they are many times more often the direct cause of an injury than a preventer of one. It's just that the ones they prevent are much more severe than the one's they cause. Furthermore a common method of how roofers get paid is by the square meter and the ropes slow you down so much that you can go from effectivity making 40+ an hour to less than minimum wage. They constantly get snagged, tangled, or you stepping on it and it rolls out from un⁶derfoot. Fuck those things. It's one of those rules that was obviously written by someone who's never roofed a day in their lives
Fall protection wasn't created for roofers.
Exactly. But they're legally required to use it.
Not really. Owner of the roofing company is required to provide it for their employees.
Here in Canada we are.
Not so much in the US. Company at liability.
Yeah companies can get fined up here if they don't provide it and also if they don't enforce rules mandating their use. Then employees can get fined as well if not using it when they're provided it. Since the workers compensation board, which is basically work insurance plus incedent investigators that all workers in Canada get, is a arm of the government they rather pass rules that makes people use safety equipment and enforce safety standards if it meant less money being paid out to employees who've gotten injured at work.
Cuz they don’t use it often enough to get used to the fall protection. You’re being obtuse
You’ve never roofed I see. It’s a 1”-1.25” diameter rope that’s hooked to your back and lays right in front of you as you work. It impedes your speed there, plus moving around a roof with 4-6 ropes all tied in to the peak, while navigating the other guys up in the roof becomes a nightmare and dangerous. I’ve rolled my ankle on a roof because of this fact. The guy above you isn’t incorrect
These commenters remind me of the askmechanics subreddit when someone asks a question and all the laymen show up with their Chris fix expertise talking about the proper torque and then the real knuckle busters are like “turn that bolt into liquid”
Sorry but I don't believe people don't get used to the ropes after working with them for a few weeks.
You can choose to believe it or not but, as someone who has also shingled 100s of houses, it is absolutely true that they cause more accidents that they prevent. You know how many times I’ve almost fallen off a roof? Zero. You know how many times I’ve stepped on or tripped over a rope? At least 30.
The introduction of tripping hazard in an effort to keep you from falling off a roof is funny as hell to me
Sure. You get used to walking back to where you just came from just have your rope get caught on a tiny nail and jersey you back. Sur%e you get used to carrying a bundle of singles back to (rom underfoot ;;b either of them making you fall cause you can't really *&y7see ; feet while carrying a bundle. Sure you can get used to _ on a run just to get jerked away from it cause neither you nor your co worker noticed them getting tangled together&. But as you can imagine getting used to this stuff happening doesn't make working with it any easier or faster.
Basically because people don't fall off roofs very often and it's not worth it for Osha or Worksafe to go after small companies. It's the same with painting, if anyone tried to force me to use fall protection I'd just quit. To me falling off a roof or ladder is like driving into a concrete overpass . . . . don't do that.
Roofing is currently the [second deadliest job in the US](https://www.constructiondive.com/news/construction-fatalities-2023-bls-falls-safety/702974/) (after logging)
Where would they hook the fall arrest to that wouldn't require it to be long enough that it's of no use? Roofs are flat, you don't have beams to hook into. They're also pitched so it's longer than it looks. If you think you can screw an arrest system into the roof well that would ruin its ability to shed water.
lol in Florida most roofs are 4/12 or less I could jog safely on them
the ppe is like 300usd, basic harnass, 150ft of rope you tie onto a tree on the other side of the roof and a autolocking thing that follows you when slowly pulling/feeding cable
That's called a rope grab by the way. Does every house have a tree nearby? Have you tried carrying bundles of shingles while using one? They sometimes lock up while walking. What about the pendulum effect? How far does your lanyard stretch before it actually stops? You'll likely fall 18' before the system actually arrests your fall. Now what? You've still gotta content with heat and you've added a lot more insulation oh and more shit to trip over while carrying those bundles since you know it takes more than one guy to roof a home.
Takes too long to deal with harnesses and shit.
It's called a rope
There's some industries in which employers exploit a perception that the work is unskilled and entry level. They structure their recruitment to hire desperate people who won't quit or organize over bad working conditions. For example undocumented or legal but fresh off the boat immigrants, ex-cons and parolees, work visa laborers, and otherwise unemployable resumes. The grift revolves around keeping costs low while targeting contracts in storm damaged areas for surcharge pricing as revenue. It otherwise wouldn't be a good business model except for the opportunistic highway robbery tactics.
It was 2004. I was poor. $12/hr was money for unskilled tear off.
I love it when I see people wearing harnesses that aren't tied off to anything
To save time and money.
We just watched a crew do a neighbors house with 0 protection. We happen to know this company from looking into it when we had our roof done last spring. They are a small family owned shop and only 4 guys showed up, definitely not undocumented workers or anything. They clearly were not interested in using it.
It's called, do you wanna make money or not.
U kidding right? Never use enchantments unless you want to look weak
I'm my industry there just simply isn't a realistic option for fall protection most of the time. I'm more concerned about heat... working 8 hours in a 110 degree plus environment is pretty shitty.
It takes longer time, because of this it costs more both in labor cost and the overhead costs of the safety equipment and the cost of training employees, because of this they get hired less. So less people opt to use it. Like it's not a hard thing to realize why it happens. You need your roof done. Do you go for the guys that have safety equipment, cost 1500 and are gonna take 3 days. Or are you gonna go to the guys who say they can do it in 1 day for 800. It's not a hard idea to understand.
Because a lot of roofers are ex-cons, a lot who aren't known for their risk-assessment abilities.
Hahaha. I’m 50 and have never seen a roofer wearing/using fall protection. Roofing companies know the majority of their employees can’t get a job anywhere else so they will treat them like shit and pay the barest minimum for protection.
Same reason why chefs use a mandolin without the guard or cut resistant gloves, because they’re used to it, and the “inconvenience” of using the safety gear is inconvenient.
This reads like an ad meme
Usually for the same reason you don't put a seat belt on top go for a short drive. You're used it to and so you're complacent and willfully ignoring the danger because it's normal. That or the boss won't provide it, sadly most people won't risk their job and will instead choose to risk their lives.
Fell off a 30' ladder with an 80lb pack of shingles slung on my shoulder. Never again. Also, my employer was an actual neo nazi, so there's that as well. Fuck roofing.
At least disable fall damage
I didn't want to do my own roof because it's pretty fucking steep. I hired "professionals" they had zero fall protection.
IME construction bosses hate safety and discourage it bc it slows work down and wastes money. I caught huge shit for not standing on top of ladders and reaching into 17KV transformer boxes without any PPE. They wouldn't even provide safety goggles when drilling holes in ceilings.
I was a roofer for 5-6 years. I only fell off the roof twice. The first time I landed in a pile of hay, the second time I landed on my buddy Matt.
Driving is riskier.
Have a brother that is a roofer for 20 years. He thinks that it's unnecessary and it slows them down. You know what else slows him down? Falling off of roofs and hurting himself....which he's done many times and now hobbles like he's 20-30 years older than he is. So basically, it's stupidity.
More dangerous being tied on a roof.
I installed Directv as a kid, that meant climbing a ladder and sometimes working on a roof. About the time I left they started requiring fall protection anytime you went over 5feet up a ladder. Let me tell you, my production was 1/3 of what it was before the fall protection. as an industry that used to pay by the job and not by the hour let me tell you the fall protection was absolutely hated by everyone. I climbed ladders for 10+ years, and I feel safer going up a ladder unhindered with a helmet on compared to having ropes and added weight all around me. Could I fall? sure. still wasnt worth it. The risk is so minimally small and the equipment and time it took to reduce that risk was way too much.
Because I’m careful
Because to most of these guys it's a hassle to use proper safety equipment.
My dad was a roofer for decades. He woulda called a harness, "pussy shit"
Well that's just a terrific comment.
I hope your dad died of Covid
Because I don't know how to active god mode.
Because they only work in the summer
Simple solution. Send out inspectors. Everyone on a roof with no protection gets arrested. Also the supervisor. Source: Worked in Workers Compensation, read claims files. You have no idea how bad it can be. And you don’t know how small a fall it takes.
You accept risk every day. Driving on the street. Walking by cars. Interacting with people. Exposing yourself to the sun. Had a friend lose his arm in a car accident because he was 4 hours away from any hospital. Grandpa died from black lung from mining. Uncle got cancer from being an airplane pilot. I go hiking in grizzly country just with pepper seasoning. You chose your risks you are fine with and go on living or you hold up in a bunker and still die at the end.
Meth
YES!!!! There is a viral rehabber doing a rehab and ZERO FALL PROTECTION!
It’s about being a hero