WW2 would have been even more horrific than it already was. Poland lost 20% of its population in OTL. Imagine what the Nazis would do in this alternative timeline.
I think Poland's population would be reduced to the point that after the war the Soviets have to send Millions of Russians, Ukranians and Belarusians there just to keep the country going! (I'm just making a stupid dark Comedy, don't mind me!)
So... Poland is a secular country that allows its citizens freedom of religion. What are you proposing would happen?
A majority of existing Polish citizens would wake up and decide they were Jewish one morning, and start practicing the faith?
So instead of receiving a Catholic baptism, Mieszko would have converted to Judaism with his realm following suit. So basically yes, this is an alt history sub, use your imagination.
Not in medieval times, which is what OP is referring to, instead of converting from slavic paganism to catholicism, the polish king converts to judaism
Teutonic order would have purpose beyond Jagiello marrying into the Polish crown and they would be surrounded by hostile Christian kingdoms. unless the Jewish bankers and merchants across Europe would be dumping their profits back into a Jewish kingdom allowing Poland to bankroll massive armies with and perhaps avoid a deluge and subsequent partitioning and ultimately stamp out the Nazis before a possible ww2 since their army was shit in the 30s. In addition to the Jewish barons in various wealthy kingdoms across the continent would influence their respective local politics to maintain friendly relations with Poland.
Poland's golden age basically happened when they went full liberal with religion and Jews came into the commonwealth pumping up the economy. They might even have had a westward push into German territories with local Jewish merchants feeling partial to a Jewish state next door.
there would be no support from christians and Papal State to Poland, maybe they will be conquered by Teutons just because Pope would fully support them and christian Europe will do too
check the hoi4 mod Pride And Fall，theres this soccer hooligans where you can transform into “Republic of Polin” with a jewish communist as president.
definitely unrelated，but im just mentioning it.
I've once followed a FB page detailing an attempt to finish CK2 with a Jewish Poland. It was aptly named Naród Podwójnie Wybrany (The Doubly-Chosen People).
Realistically, there is no way such a state survives. Only the elites would convert initially and I can't really see Judaism taking root in the general population the same way Catholicism did. Poland would likely be conquered and forcibly Christianised or the rulers would convert to Christianity eventually to avoid tensions with the neighbouring countries and gain the obvious benefits in diplomacy, administration, centralisation etc. Poland is probably brought much closer into the HRE orbit as a result and maybe actually becomes part of the Empire down the line, especially if the former scenario happens.
Needs more context tbh, did the rest of the Slavic clans convert to Judaism? Is this all cus the Khazars expanded further west than in OTL?
Im gon assum the Khazars sent missionaries to the slavs n converted most, if not all, of them. (Thats applicable anyway)
I think firstly there woul be a lot more unity in eastern europe, as the faith is very culturally nepotistic, so idk if “polish” woul even have the same insinuations as OTL. This woul also mean that the Orthodox church woul have nowhere to proselytize or relocate after the fall of the ERE. So i imagine thag ultimately the orthodox clergy woul develop closer ties to the west to make up for this detriment to their numbers.
If WW2 still happens, n is ostensibly the same as OTL, it woul be far more disastrous for Easter Europe if the Nazis were successful in any regard, but i feel that the lack of disparity woul result in a lot tougher of a fight so make of that what you will
Thats rly all i got atm, but i do rly like tbe idea, jus needs more fleshing out n context
Here, I couldn't stand the pixellated mess of the second flag so I made a better version:
https://preview.redd.it/5oc9clfvpcwc1.png?width=1500&format=png&auto=webp&s=2419fb7646b0f288cf808c6db723aec988751154
Well, the Teutonic Order would probably attempt to convert them back
If they fail, I could see Russia or Prussia or perhaps even Austria or Czechia attempting to conquer Poland before the historical partitions under religious pretenses. The success of which is possible, but hard to say.
Perhaps Napoleon is more hesitant to create a Polish state in this timeline, but I doubt it.
And now we reach the Interwar period....
Yeah, remember the Nazis? They hated the Poles, but not enough to spend resources systematically killing them off in the Holocaust whilst as war. Since they are now all Jewish, you've effectively moved them up to the top of the list, instead of right below it.
I'd say Poland would be lucky to exist as a culture akin to Tataristan or Sorbia, but that may be overexaggerating slightly.
(Note: citation needed, messages rushed)
Poles were targeted pretty systematically as a part of GPO, non-Jewish Polish victims of the German war crimes constituted around 10% of the pre-war population of the country. I sort of understand the point you’re making, but it’s an unfortunate way to frame it, the reason Nazi Germany didn’t complete their plans wasn’t for a lack of trying.
It was under my impression that they were delaying their extermination until after the war, mostly mistreating and enslaving them in the meantime (which is arguably worse). My apologies for misremembering
Yes, the post-war plans entailed complete eradication of the Polish nation, but still around 2.5-3 million were killed between 1939 and 1945, along with 3 million Polish Jews
If I may ask, how many of them were resistance fighters instead of just random civilians? I am aware that the Germans were incredibly brutal against political and partisan resistance
Can you start off with.. why?
Also, many Jews would not accept this ''conversion'', and even if, then conversion is way harder, unlike with for Islam or Christianity and takes *years.*
Poland gets a decent administration sistem due to the many jews escaped from nations like Spain. The banking sistem improves and Poland gets partitioned only 1 time (too big territory: maybe not lost by force but sold).
For centuries Poland remains quite isolationists, fights occasionaly against the arabs (why not), and doesn't get annexed by the neighbouring countryes after Wien conference.
Allied with the Entente in WW, gets a piece of Sachsen and Galicia. During WW2 Poland will suffer WAY more casualties due to the biggest Jewish population.
Nowadays Poland will be similar to OTL, way bigger and with a stable economy.
Militaryly talking, the military training and research development can be similar to OTL Israel.
Now? If they converted now they will say that they are actually related to Moses and used to live in Palestine 300000 years ago and be given birthright lol
WW2 would have been even more horrific than it already was. Poland lost 20% of its population in OTL. Imagine what the Nazis would do in this alternative timeline.
I think Poland's population would be reduced to the point that after the war the Soviets have to send Millions of Russians, Ukranians and Belarusians there just to keep the country going! (I'm just making a stupid dark Comedy, don't mind me!)
yeah but it is true though.
Not nazis, germans and russians did that
you never stop learning: Nazis did not exist. They are made up.
Seems i shouldve made it clear that this is in 966 when poland was first converting!!!
Teutonic Order goes brrrrrrrr
I know this sounds silly (because it really is) but what if instead of converting to catholisicm poland converted to judaism because why not
So... Poland is a secular country that allows its citizens freedom of religion. What are you proposing would happen? A majority of existing Polish citizens would wake up and decide they were Jewish one morning, and start practicing the faith?
Yes
So instead of receiving a Catholic baptism, Mieszko would have converted to Judaism with his realm following suit. So basically yes, this is an alt history sub, use your imagination.
Not in medieval times, which is what OP is referring to, instead of converting from slavic paganism to catholicism, the polish king converts to judaism
Teutonic order would have purpose beyond Jagiello marrying into the Polish crown and they would be surrounded by hostile Christian kingdoms. unless the Jewish bankers and merchants across Europe would be dumping their profits back into a Jewish kingdom allowing Poland to bankroll massive armies with and perhaps avoid a deluge and subsequent partitioning and ultimately stamp out the Nazis before a possible ww2 since their army was shit in the 30s. In addition to the Jewish barons in various wealthy kingdoms across the continent would influence their respective local politics to maintain friendly relations with Poland. Poland's golden age basically happened when they went full liberal with religion and Jews came into the commonwealth pumping up the economy. They might even have had a westward push into German territories with local Jewish merchants feeling partial to a Jewish state next door.
there would be no support from christians and Papal State to Poland, maybe they will be conquered by Teutons just because Pope would fully support them and christian Europe will do too
check the hoi4 mod Pride And Fall，theres this soccer hooligans where you can transform into “Republic of Polin” with a jewish communist as president. definitely unrelated，but im just mentioning it.
After the 40s there weren’t really many Jews left in Poland were there..?
Its in 966 when poland was converting, the tag also shows pre1900s
There were still quite few around that made it, the last ones though left after 1968.
polish people would be very sparse after ww2, Poland probably filled with ruthenians, Ukrainians, Lithuanians, and Germans
Rabbi John Paul II
I've once followed a FB page detailing an attempt to finish CK2 with a Jewish Poland. It was aptly named Naród Podwójnie Wybrany (The Doubly-Chosen People). Realistically, there is no way such a state survives. Only the elites would convert initially and I can't really see Judaism taking root in the general population the same way Catholicism did. Poland would likely be conquered and forcibly Christianised or the rulers would convert to Christianity eventually to avoid tensions with the neighbouring countries and gain the obvious benefits in diplomacy, administration, centralisation etc. Poland is probably brought much closer into the HRE orbit as a result and maybe actually becomes part of the Empire down the line, especially if the former scenario happens.
They’d have to print “light candles on the other side, please” on the bottom of the menorah
Needs more context tbh, did the rest of the Slavic clans convert to Judaism? Is this all cus the Khazars expanded further west than in OTL? Im gon assum the Khazars sent missionaries to the slavs n converted most, if not all, of them. (Thats applicable anyway) I think firstly there woul be a lot more unity in eastern europe, as the faith is very culturally nepotistic, so idk if “polish” woul even have the same insinuations as OTL. This woul also mean that the Orthodox church woul have nowhere to proselytize or relocate after the fall of the ERE. So i imagine thag ultimately the orthodox clergy woul develop closer ties to the west to make up for this detriment to their numbers. If WW2 still happens, n is ostensibly the same as OTL, it woul be far more disastrous for Easter Europe if the Nazis were successful in any regard, but i feel that the lack of disparity woul result in a lot tougher of a fight so make of that what you will Thats rly all i got atm, but i do rly like tbe idea, jus needs more fleshing out n context
How much of the Khazars actually converted to Judaism though?
Here, I couldn't stand the pixellated mess of the second flag so I made a better version: https://preview.redd.it/5oc9clfvpcwc1.png?width=1500&format=png&auto=webp&s=2419fb7646b0f288cf808c6db723aec988751154
The only scenario where i see it could work is kievan rus converts to judaism from khazars and after that poland converts to judaism from kievan rus
If it was pre ww2 the polish state would not exist today
uhhhhhhhhhhhh
then poland wouldnt be anti jewish for once
Why would the flag change lol
I just wanted an image to grab peoples attention
Well, the Teutonic Order would probably attempt to convert them back If they fail, I could see Russia or Prussia or perhaps even Austria or Czechia attempting to conquer Poland before the historical partitions under religious pretenses. The success of which is possible, but hard to say. Perhaps Napoleon is more hesitant to create a Polish state in this timeline, but I doubt it. And now we reach the Interwar period.... Yeah, remember the Nazis? They hated the Poles, but not enough to spend resources systematically killing them off in the Holocaust whilst as war. Since they are now all Jewish, you've effectively moved them up to the top of the list, instead of right below it. I'd say Poland would be lucky to exist as a culture akin to Tataristan or Sorbia, but that may be overexaggerating slightly. (Note: citation needed, messages rushed)
Poles were targeted pretty systematically as a part of GPO, non-Jewish Polish victims of the German war crimes constituted around 10% of the pre-war population of the country. I sort of understand the point you’re making, but it’s an unfortunate way to frame it, the reason Nazi Germany didn’t complete their plans wasn’t for a lack of trying.
It was under my impression that they were delaying their extermination until after the war, mostly mistreating and enslaving them in the meantime (which is arguably worse). My apologies for misremembering
Yes, the post-war plans entailed complete eradication of the Polish nation, but still around 2.5-3 million were killed between 1939 and 1945, along with 3 million Polish Jews
If I may ask, how many of them were resistance fighters instead of just random civilians? I am aware that the Germans were incredibly brutal against political and partisan resistance
It’s difficult to estimate, but the number I’ve seen most often is 100 000 members of the resistance killed or missing
Idk, what is poland?
Can you start off with.. why? Also, many Jews would not accept this ''conversion'', and even if, then conversion is way harder, unlike with for Islam or Christianity and takes *years.*
Poland gets fucking bombed into oblivion by HE 111's
Poland gets a decent administration sistem due to the many jews escaped from nations like Spain. The banking sistem improves and Poland gets partitioned only 1 time (too big territory: maybe not lost by force but sold). For centuries Poland remains quite isolationists, fights occasionaly against the arabs (why not), and doesn't get annexed by the neighbouring countryes after Wien conference. Allied with the Entente in WW, gets a piece of Sachsen and Galicia. During WW2 Poland will suffer WAY more casualties due to the biggest Jewish population. Nowadays Poland will be similar to OTL, way bigger and with a stable economy. Militaryly talking, the military training and research development can be similar to OTL Israel.
Now? If they converted now they will say that they are actually related to Moses and used to live in Palestine 300000 years ago and be given birthright lol