Won’t lie this interesting.
Question is, do the Soviets still invade Finland?
As the Fins did not have any kind of defense pact with the Allies like Poland did. So there would be nothing deterring the Soviets from making the attempt. The Allies consider sending troops in our timeline, but Norway and Sweden didn’t want troops to go through their nations and risk being dragged into the war themselves.
So here with no WW2, would Sweden and Norway be more inclined to allow troops through if Finland is invaded?
The Soviets still invaded Finland around the same time
The allies didn't to go to war with the Soviets because Poland didn't want to get involved in the war due to having a border with the USSR
You’d also need to consider, that the Allie’s really only wanted access to the strategic resources of these countries and secure them from German hands, so sort of an soft occupation, and pleading to help Finland really only was a cover up for this. The question is if this then still applies or if the Allie’s would just go; welp, it’s just Finland, why let our people die in a war for a nation we have no defensive pact with
Yeah you’re right.
You could ask if the war would happen at all.
Wasn’t a major reason, if not THE major reason, the invasion happened, at least at that point, is that Stalin wanted an extra buffer of territory to protect Leningrad in case of a invasion by the Germans via Finnish territory.
No, the motivation and goal behind the Winter War, i.e. the first Soviet attempt at invading Finland, was a total invasion and occupation of Finland.
Look at what happened to e.g. Estonia if you want to know what would have happened if Finland had given in to Stalin's demands. There would have been more and more demands, until a de facto occupation of all of Finland would have occurred.
Berlin gets destroyed by an asteroid a few days after they invade Poland a week before the Soviets were to join the war.
The war ends a few months later due to the allies pushing into a severely weakened Germany and after a treaty is signed Germany goes into a warlord period.
They would probably put Germany under occupation to make sure they don’t attempt to remilitarise a second time. Basically what happened after WW2 but much lighter as Germany is fairly unlikely come to be seen as brutal and genocidal conquerers planning on something a mere step away from world conquest but, well.. just a weird schizophrenic episode of Germany where they were ruled by people who wanted to be brutal, genocidal conquerers and then collapsed immediately.
Professor, is it done?
Hitler... Is out of the way.
Congratulations, professor! With Hitler gone, you've prevented a war!
Time will tell. Sooner or later... Time will tell...
Cue..."Hell March"
But the particular land being gained only makes sense when you consider that Stalin wanted them to have it, rather than it ever being Polish. Stalin said he wanted a buffer state (an excuse) but that because Belarus exists, Poland needed to move further west
Silly goose…the Soviet’s were good! Comrade Stalin would NEVER make a secret pact with Nazi Germany to pincer the s#!t out of Poland! And Finland generously bequeathed 11% of its territory to the benevolent USSR!
I believe this would trigger a second Great Awakening and put to rest the idea that God is dead. It also likely would stop Atomic Research from accelerating in the U.S. with no threat of German advancements. It would also mean Japan would not attack the USA at Pearl Harbor in 1941 as they would not control French Indochina. Thus the war against China would have developed differently as the U.S. could and would have supported the Government of China more. It’s quite possible the Communists would be weakened enough that a Civil War would not resume after the Japanese withdraw, if they withdraw, they might stubbornly fight on in a stalemate for a couple of decades while the U.S. and other nations supply just enough weapons to the Chinese to stymie the Japanese who slowly lose their ability to maintain a modern war machine. Long term, the USSR might actually have survived to today due to not fighting the Great Patriotic War and having a bit of a self examination of certain aspects of Communist beliefs.
Nah, that's not why. They were waiting for UK and France to attack Germany and preparing to attack Germany when they'll be at their weakest, then steamroll over France to Atlantic Ocean. They went into Poland when they were sure that France won't attack Germany. They were more than ready to attack, 1941 was such a defeat because Red Army was preparing for an attack, not defense against Germany. Look at the BT-7 tanks for example, they weren't suited for Russia or Poland and bumpy roads, they were meant to be used in Germany, Italy and France
No. The Soviets of 1941 were neither preparing for an attack nor defense. They are reorganizing from lighter tanks to heavier ones taking lessons from Finland
Post Winter War all offensive planning is thrown out in its place orders of new arms to reequip the Soviet military
BT series tanks are going to be replaced anyway
1941 is such a defeat due to Soviey units being fully unprepared, the Germans are fighting a mobilizing, retreating yet fighting army for 6 months. The Germans came in fully prepared with units fully assembled, armed
and supplied while the opposite is true for the Soviets for the first few months
Post winter war they did start to replace equipment, true. But all years before they were preparing to attack Europe and I think if UK and France would start beating up Germans USSR would go in and try to stop in Lisbona
They are indeed. But such doctrines lies with Tukhacevsky's insistent on hard hitting offensives with lighting paced tanks overwhelming the enemy. The Purge put an end to such ambitions, especially with the German friendly Molotov taking the Foreign Ministry
Which is uncertain. As the Soviets made a Stalin Line, a line of forts along the Dnieper deep inside the Soviet border
The re-equipping takes god knows how long. Its suffice to say the Soviet goverment plans no more attacks on Europe after the humilitation of Finland. The African front doesnt take much German commitment after all, leaving Germany with a lot of spare manpower
Oh, you're talking about the scenerio of the post. I thought we're talking IRL
in that case. No, the Soviets will not attack. The reason the M-R pact happens is Soviet needs of machine tools which is paid with their natural resources. If Germany lost that quickly, the Soviets will trade even more with the allies to help their 5 year plans
The Soviet foreign policy is closely linked to the 5 year plans, the anti German policy is thrown away when the allies exported less due to rearmament. While the Germans with few willing export-import partners and increasingly complex permit procession for it chose to go with the Soviets instead
He said peace in our time. THAT MEANS PEACE IN OUR FUCKING TIME!!!
Don't mess with the British. They always manage to come out on top whatever they do.
From a physical perspective, an asteroid the size of that, on the average asteroid speed of 20kms^-1, density of 3g/cm^3 and at a diameter of 40km, that would create a giant crater with a diameter of 405km which would’ve made Dresden a part of the German Sea; before creating a fireball with a radius of 238km.
This would also create a seismic wave the equivalent of a 11-magnitude earthquake, enough to cause considerable damage worldwide and devastate Europe. This would also incite a huge load of ejecta, enough for a 5cm-layer in NYC, all across the Atlantic.
I’m not an expert in the sound & air blast effects, though it should be relatively minor.
In other words, the USSR didn’t invade Europe because a considerable amount of their population was dead from that incident with trillions in economic losses.
I think this is a bad timeline funnily enough.
A major war is only delayed as the Soviets will continue aggression unchecked by threat of atomic war and Japan and Italy seem to exist fine too
Soviets end up in Germany earlier which gives them access to a plethora of weak neutral of nominally axis states that didn’t join in 1939. I think they’d also still push the polish issue tbh given the track record IRL (20s, 1939, post-WW2)
Eventually the envelope will be pushed and well… RIP whatever is in the way.
For example: Soviets end up invading Denmark, Finland, Poland, Romania, Bulgaria, Hungary, Austria, or Yugoslavia etc. *Somebody*. They’ll probably even get away with it before someone else pushes back successfully or the Allies intervene
Which again might be even mid 40s because Chamberlain exists and his policy would be heralded as a success (when really the Soviets still remain aggressive and it’s only successful because of a literal cosmic fluke).
How big was the asteroid? If it left a huge crater that became a lake, most of Europe's population is dead or injured, there's been a devestating earthquake, destroying most infrastructure, and there will be starvation because crops and food stores were destroyed and what's left can't be transported.
The more interesting thing to look at in this timeline is what happens to Europe's overseas colonies. In the original timeline Europe lacked the resources to enforce their control over their colonies resulting in a drawn out period of decolonization that was largely peaceful for what it could have been, all under the supervision of the US and USSR.
In a world without WW2 as we know it many of the colonial empires would still have the manpower and resources to continue subjugating their colonies. Decolonization would've been extraordinarily bloody in this new timeline.
There is a crater the size of a small city in America that they say was made from a asteroid the size of a bus. So I can only assume that this one was the size of like 5 busses. It wouldn’t destroy Europe, but it would definitely cause some serious damage around it.
This might mean nuclear weapons are.first used to win a.war instead of as.an exclamation point.at. the end of one that was already.decided..That seems bad.
Berlin is not that essential for Germany's existence. Frederik the Great lost it during the course of 7 years war and still won. Industry is in Rhine-Ruhr area, finance in Frankfurt am Main. Military could run the country out of Flensberg if needed.
What about all the personnel and leadership located there? Losing it in a war is not that devastating, as you can anticipate its loss and, to some extent, evacuate both the most critical infrastructure and personell. You can also make contingency plans for the possibility of losing some of that functionality.
What we are talking about with this scenario is everyone going around their day, and suddenly at 10 in the morning, all of that snaps out of the existence, probably with most of the contingency plan documentation that was stashed in a cabinet somewhere in the city.
All of a sudden, you have a power vacuum, decisions on what to do next need to be made, schedules altered, trains rerouted, etc. with zero warning and prepwork
Berlin is not that essential for Germany's existence. Frederik the Great lost it during the course of 7 years war and still won. Industry is in Rhine-Ruhr area, finance in Frankfurt am Main. Military could run the country out of Flensberg if needed.
An asteroid creating a lake that large would annihilate all of Europe, but an interesting concept nonetheless.
This is clearly just a cover story for alien space bats coming and stealing Berlin to insert into a whacky situation elsewhere.
Like *1632*
Why isn't this a movie yet?
It was optioned for tv once iirc, but never went anywhere
Reminds me of Fallen London, where the same thing happened but London went underground
"*85 years ago, Berlin was stolen by bats.*"
"The Sixth City of the Neath."
Fallen Berlin
Average Turtledove series be like:
Maybe the lake is the entire crater and that’s the extent of the damage from a comparatively small asteroid. But idk I’m not a scientist.
That was all that was left after the valiant luftwaffles got done with it.
Probably the whole world would be killed. That asteroid would be far larger than the dinosaur killer
It would be nowhere near the meteroite that killed the dinosaurs. That one left a crater 200 kilometers in diamater.
The dinaur killer let a crater larger than several cities in yucatan, Mexico, i think one with a crater the size of berlin is smaller
Not just Europe. It would cause a mass extinction event.
The crater that killed the dinosaurs is 120 miles across. It’d be like a crater 30x the size of modern Berlin. It covered 9000 sq miles
I think 120 miles would obliterate all life as we know it except for maybe bacteria
Again, the meteor that killed the dinosaurs created a crater that big and mammals, fish, bugs, and all kinds of smaller creatures survived.
It's like you are crazy, but no, it's right there in text. I feel ya.
It was an experimental Nazi death Ray malfunction, the asteroid is a cover, obviously. Everything is still under the lake, melted.
Won’t lie this interesting. Question is, do the Soviets still invade Finland? As the Fins did not have any kind of defense pact with the Allies like Poland did. So there would be nothing deterring the Soviets from making the attempt. The Allies consider sending troops in our timeline, but Norway and Sweden didn’t want troops to go through their nations and risk being dragged into the war themselves. So here with no WW2, would Sweden and Norway be more inclined to allow troops through if Finland is invaded?
The Soviets still invaded Finland around the same time The allies didn't to go to war with the Soviets because Poland didn't want to get involved in the war due to having a border with the USSR
You’d also need to consider, that the Allie’s really only wanted access to the strategic resources of these countries and secure them from German hands, so sort of an soft occupation, and pleading to help Finland really only was a cover up for this. The question is if this then still applies or if the Allie’s would just go; welp, it’s just Finland, why let our people die in a war for a nation we have no defensive pact with
Yeah you’re right. You could ask if the war would happen at all. Wasn’t a major reason, if not THE major reason, the invasion happened, at least at that point, is that Stalin wanted an extra buffer of territory to protect Leningrad in case of a invasion by the Germans via Finnish territory.
No, the motivation and goal behind the Winter War, i.e. the first Soviet attempt at invading Finland, was a total invasion and occupation of Finland. Look at what happened to e.g. Estonia if you want to know what would have happened if Finland had given in to Stalin's demands. There would have been more and more demands, until a de facto occupation of all of Finland would have occurred.
The big lake in Neu Berlin
Tno more like
Gouch trass. I am a human, and this action was performed manually. Idk anymore, just tryna get my point across
*\*cuts the grass\** No touches
oh thank you
Damn I love these kind of Ahistorical mapping, keep it up bro
Background?
Berlin gets destroyed by an asteroid a few days after they invade Poland a week before the Soviets were to join the war. The war ends a few months later due to the allies pushing into a severely weakened Germany and after a treaty is signed Germany goes into a warlord period.
If the allies had their armies mobilised no doubt crushing the warlords would be easy
Sure, but to what end? Eventually they will leave or pick sides among the various German warlords.
They would probably put Germany under occupation to make sure they don’t attempt to remilitarise a second time. Basically what happened after WW2 but much lighter as Germany is fairly unlikely come to be seen as brutal and genocidal conquerers planning on something a mere step away from world conquest but, well.. just a weird schizophrenic episode of Germany where they were ruled by people who wanted to be brutal, genocidal conquerers and then collapsed immediately.
But Germany did militarize a second time. The Bundeswehr and Volksarmee were some of the largest non-superpower contributors to NATO/Warsaw Pct.
Professor, is it done? Hitler... Is out of the way. Congratulations, professor! With Hitler gone, you've prevented a war! Time will tell. Sooner or later... Time will tell... Cue..."Hell March"
https://youtu.be/QfU1lYAIlWs?si=K88Z5fDEHz5fDh1E The moment you saw “Westwood Studios: Proudly Presents” you knew it was going to be good.
Why does this kinda look like a hoi4 peace conference
Because France gained land that makes no sense and Poland gained land that makes no sense in this scenario.
Welp, poland land gain make a bit of sense if we look at history.
But the particular land being gained only makes sense when you consider that Stalin wanted them to have it, rather than it ever being Polish. Stalin said he wanted a buffer state (an excuse) but that because Belarus exists, Poland needed to move further west
It was polish for few hundred years so weak claim exist at that time.
I can't believe Neville Chamberlain used his powers in this timeline to strike Berlin down. PEACE. IN. OUR. TIME.
Cue in ultron coming into being
A fun ww2 scenario! Finally!
Good ending
what the hell is this crack scenario?
https://preview.redd.it/269b2al7yp0d1.png?width=354&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=fde9283a5d62b7d165a8ee24343353a349449b29
the cost of a piece of cake the Marie Antionette should of ate
Silly goose…the Soviet’s were good! Comrade Stalin would NEVER make a secret pact with Nazi Germany to pincer the s#!t out of Poland! And Finland generously bequeathed 11% of its territory to the benevolent USSR!
I believe this would trigger a second Great Awakening and put to rest the idea that God is dead. It also likely would stop Atomic Research from accelerating in the U.S. with no threat of German advancements. It would also mean Japan would not attack the USA at Pearl Harbor in 1941 as they would not control French Indochina. Thus the war against China would have developed differently as the U.S. could and would have supported the Government of China more. It’s quite possible the Communists would be weakened enough that a Civil War would not resume after the Japanese withdraw, if they withdraw, they might stubbornly fight on in a stalemate for a couple of decades while the U.S. and other nations supply just enough weapons to the Chinese to stymie the Japanese who slowly lose their ability to maintain a modern war machine. Long term, the USSR might actually have survived to today due to not fighting the Great Patriotic War and having a bit of a self examination of certain aspects of Communist beliefs.
How does the Cold War play out in this scenario?
It doesn’t.
I don't see why Germany would lose East Prussia in this hypothetical.
Why does France invade Belgium
Japan are screwed lmao, USA will literally obliterate Japan if there will be no war in Europe until 1945.
Why would USSR not attack? Irl they were waiting for a war between Germany and allies so they can roll in at the last moment.
They werent prepared IRL for prolonged war yet. This is why they waited for germans to beat poles before invading.
Nah, that's not why. They were waiting for UK and France to attack Germany and preparing to attack Germany when they'll be at their weakest, then steamroll over France to Atlantic Ocean. They went into Poland when they were sure that France won't attack Germany. They were more than ready to attack, 1941 was such a defeat because Red Army was preparing for an attack, not defense against Germany. Look at the BT-7 tanks for example, they weren't suited for Russia or Poland and bumpy roads, they were meant to be used in Germany, Italy and France
No. The Soviets of 1941 were neither preparing for an attack nor defense. They are reorganizing from lighter tanks to heavier ones taking lessons from Finland Post Winter War all offensive planning is thrown out in its place orders of new arms to reequip the Soviet military BT series tanks are going to be replaced anyway 1941 is such a defeat due to Soviey units being fully unprepared, the Germans are fighting a mobilizing, retreating yet fighting army for 6 months. The Germans came in fully prepared with units fully assembled, armed and supplied while the opposite is true for the Soviets for the first few months
Post winter war they did start to replace equipment, true. But all years before they were preparing to attack Europe and I think if UK and France would start beating up Germans USSR would go in and try to stop in Lisbona
They are indeed. But such doctrines lies with Tukhacevsky's insistent on hard hitting offensives with lighting paced tanks overwhelming the enemy. The Purge put an end to such ambitions, especially with the German friendly Molotov taking the Foreign Ministry
Yeah, still, I think they would just take old plans out of the drawer and go in while the allies would be the most invested in war with Germany
Which is uncertain. As the Soviets made a Stalin Line, a line of forts along the Dnieper deep inside the Soviet border The re-equipping takes god knows how long. Its suffice to say the Soviet goverment plans no more attacks on Europe after the humilitation of Finland. The African front doesnt take much German commitment after all, leaving Germany with a lot of spare manpower
That's before Winter War and there's no such thing as African Front if Germany surrenders in november 1939
Oh, you're talking about the scenerio of the post. I thought we're talking IRL in that case. No, the Soviets will not attack. The reason the M-R pact happens is Soviet needs of machine tools which is paid with their natural resources. If Germany lost that quickly, the Soviets will trade even more with the allies to help their 5 year plans The Soviet foreign policy is closely linked to the 5 year plans, the anti German policy is thrown away when the allies exported less due to rearmament. While the Germans with few willing export-import partners and increasingly complex permit procession for it chose to go with the Soviets instead
Holy shit planetfall
He said peace in our time. THAT MEANS PEACE IN OUR FUCKING TIME!!! Don't mess with the British. They always manage to come out on top whatever they do.
Best ending
From a physical perspective, an asteroid the size of that, on the average asteroid speed of 20kms^-1, density of 3g/cm^3 and at a diameter of 40km, that would create a giant crater with a diameter of 405km which would’ve made Dresden a part of the German Sea; before creating a fireball with a radius of 238km. This would also create a seismic wave the equivalent of a 11-magnitude earthquake, enough to cause considerable damage worldwide and devastate Europe. This would also incite a huge load of ejecta, enough for a 5cm-layer in NYC, all across the Atlantic. I’m not an expert in the sound & air blast effects, though it should be relatively minor.
In other words, the USSR didn’t invade Europe because a considerable amount of their population was dead from that incident with trillions in economic losses.
I think this is a bad timeline funnily enough. A major war is only delayed as the Soviets will continue aggression unchecked by threat of atomic war and Japan and Italy seem to exist fine too Soviets end up in Germany earlier which gives them access to a plethora of weak neutral of nominally axis states that didn’t join in 1939. I think they’d also still push the polish issue tbh given the track record IRL (20s, 1939, post-WW2) Eventually the envelope will be pushed and well… RIP whatever is in the way. For example: Soviets end up invading Denmark, Finland, Poland, Romania, Bulgaria, Hungary, Austria, or Yugoslavia etc. *Somebody*. They’ll probably even get away with it before someone else pushes back successfully or the Allies intervene Which again might be even mid 40s because Chamberlain exists and his policy would be heralded as a success (when really the Soviets still remain aggressive and it’s only successful because of a literal cosmic fluke).
How big was the asteroid? If it left a huge crater that became a lake, most of Europe's population is dead or injured, there's been a devestating earthquake, destroying most infrastructure, and there will be starvation because crops and food stores were destroyed and what's left can't be transported.
Ah, so Japan gets annihilated harder than a child in Hiroshima in this timeline.
The more interesting thing to look at in this timeline is what happens to Europe's overseas colonies. In the original timeline Europe lacked the resources to enforce their control over their colonies resulting in a drawn out period of decolonization that was largely peaceful for what it could have been, all under the supervision of the US and USSR. In a world without WW2 as we know it many of the colonial empires would still have the manpower and resources to continue subjugating their colonies. Decolonization would've been extraordinarily bloody in this new timeline.
🤣🤣there’re tons of Nazis in eastern Europe
That's a.. pretty big asteroid you got there.
There is a crater the size of a small city in America that they say was made from a asteroid the size of a bus. So I can only assume that this one was the size of like 5 busses. It wouldn’t destroy Europe, but it would definitely cause some serious damage around it.
"the nazis are gone but at what cost" is a good question relevant to our modern world
That is a funny double standard. Poland is divided. Only Germany is considered an aggressor. What kind of shit is that
White people are great at killing each other.
This might mean nuclear weapons are.first used to win a.war instead of as.an exclamation point.at. the end of one that was already.decided..That seems bad.
Aw I’ve been to Berlin I liked it there :(
They did the map s not accurate
Berlin is not that essential for Germany's existence. Frederik the Great lost it during the course of 7 years war and still won. Industry is in Rhine-Ruhr area, finance in Frankfurt am Main. Military could run the country out of Flensberg if needed.
What about all the personnel and leadership located there? Losing it in a war is not that devastating, as you can anticipate its loss and, to some extent, evacuate both the most critical infrastructure and personell. You can also make contingency plans for the possibility of losing some of that functionality. What we are talking about with this scenario is everyone going around their day, and suddenly at 10 in the morning, all of that snaps out of the existence, probably with most of the contingency plan documentation that was stashed in a cabinet somewhere in the city. All of a sudden, you have a power vacuum, decisions on what to do next need to be made, schedules altered, trains rerouted, etc. with zero warning and prepwork
After Berlin fell in WWII Karl Donitz did run what was left of the Reich from Flensberg.
Berlin is not that essential for Germany's existence. Frederik the Great lost it during the course of 7 years war and still won. Industry is in Rhine-Ruhr area, finance in Frankfurt am Main. Military could run the country out of Flensberg if needed.