The annual AskBalkans census is going on at the moment. Do your thing and fill in the form, you only need like 3 mins and a Gmail account (its like a gatekeeper to make sure people only vote once). Form link, [click here.](https://forms.gle/zgU7phtJK8DBMVTq8)
**Dont worry we dont keep the emails in some data base for future use.** Now go, click on the form link and spent 3 mins.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/AskBalkans) if you have any questions or concerns.*
It is higher, black economy is almost the same as our official GDP. Most people I know are paid the minimum wage, but they get more underhand in order to pay less taxes. Businesses declare whatever revenue they feel like too.
Our salaries were actually leaked last year, so many people in Tirana with 300 euros per month salaries lol My dog needs at least 200 euros per month...
Agriculture is going well, wages are going up some even doubled in the private sector and they will still go up (people still leaving), half or more people don't even declare full earnings. Poor people are leaving too.
Construction wages are increasing also. Due to the high construction boom we have right now and also because there aren't any young people willing to work.
The private sector is going to be decent, probably next year will be even better. The public sector is always going to suffer because of political whores.
That's hilarious because around when the current party came to power (they're on the 3rd term now), their slogan was something like "in the right direction" :D
Great, if they were in the EU the GDP per capita would have been double, Romania and Albania had the same GDP per capita after the fall of communism, but Romania joined EU and NATO early, and it has 18.500$ GDP per capita, and now we surpassed Hungary at buying power, hope the same future for Albania, they deserve it, and the country has a lot of potential, peace, coastline, tourism, openness to a huge rich market (EU).
The Private Public investment scheme is doing it's part. It was a nice way to legalize the billions of euros in cash, no questions asked, just put the money somewhere where everyone might benefit.
Albania has done some massive steps forward compared to the ex Yugo countries, and it is at full speed. I remember Albania of 1998.... You can't believe it's the same place.
Being isolated for 70 plus years did its damage. 90s and early 2000s was rough for us. Within the last 10-15 years or so we made drastic changes to improve our overall economy.
Unlike communist Albania. Communist Yugoslavia had booming tourism and great trade and relations with other countries. While we were stuck dealing with the ruskis and Chinese.
>Unlike communist Albania. Communist Yugoslavia had booming tourism and great trade and relations with other countries. While we were stuck dealing with the ruskis and Chinese.
It was mostly bad foreign policy decisions that led to that. In the very early period, Yugoslavia and Albania were working very closely together and Yugoslavia was investing stupid boatloads of money into Albania, something like a third of Albania's entire annual GDP. Albania interpreted this as Tito buying his way into Albania (which it was, as both countries were preparing for unification and incorporation into Yugoslavia as a federal republic, possibly including Kosovo), so they broke up with Tito and turned to Stalin, losing by far its biggest investor and also next door neighbor and now depending on a superpower more than 1000km away. Later Hoxha accused Khruschev (I believe it was during his era) that he's not a real one and that he's not doing tru communism, so Albania also broke up with the USSR and became bros with China, a country where famines killing 60 million people were still happening, and a country on the literal other side of the planet. Later Albania isolated itself from China as well.
Albania kind of worked its own way into becoming the only country in the world with zero allies for a while. Even North Korea had the USSR and China to keep it afloat, while Albania had nobody, and I'd argue Hoxha and co. mostly walked themselves into a corner with that one.
You seem to forget why Albania was paranoid. From 1860-1920 there was nothing but war and terror from all side in balkans against Albanians... Montenegrins, Serbs, Greeks and the Ottomans they were all trying to get a piece. The London treaty was a massive blow and basically gave away 60% of the Albanian Vilayet to those nations i mentioned, leaving 2-3 times more Albanians outside the border of their "country" than inside. Kosovo is a good example of a total catastrophe in "greater powers" drawing borders.
Not to get political/historical here, but there was simply no allies, especially not Yugoslavia (they even played a role in electing Hoxha as a temporary solution). Kosovo did not bode much better in Yugoslavia either and when you compare the GDP it was the second poorest region in Europe (first being Albania).
I personally don't agree with Hoxha's decisions either, but I can also get the paranoia, or maybe why some people put up with it initially. I have a feeling we would have been fucked regardless in 20th century.
Hoxha killed like some % of his country, and imprisoned another 10%. He's more comparable Pol Pot than Ceaușescu.
I know that Ceaușescu might have caused a lot of death indirectly, but even then imagine what Hoxha did, Albanians lived on the border of famine for 50 years. They're simply not comparable. Ceaușescu was a bad leader in Europe at the time. Hoxha goes down as one of the worst in human history, luckily he controlled an impoverished and small nation.
Nicolae Ceaușescu was probably not even worse than Milosevic and co.
It's because sanctioned goods are being routed through them as an intermediary. That and the surge in rental income from all the Russians voting with their feet. I.e it's not sustainable
The growth itself is okay, inflation is the lowest in the region, we need to wait for the tax reform and highway construction to end.
The easiest way to inflate the numbers is to take massive infrastructure loans that you'll pay off in 30 years like Serbia, but unless you have some natural resource no one else does you're now a slave of the IMF/WB.
>The easiest way to inflate the numbers is to take massive infrastructure loans that you'll pay off in 30 years like Serbia
You call it GDP inflation, I call it infrastructural development. We can enjoy our lack of highways, underdeveloped railways, unequipped hospitals, but hey, our debt-to-GDP is a bit lower.
They have sea and good standing with US & EU (atleast better than Serbia), big ass diaspora, if they were to cut down on corruption & put in actual work to join the EU I can see an ok future for them, heck might even visit Albanian coast next year
Albanians are entrepreneurial, hard-working, opportunistic people, in every sense of the word, while we are weak-minded whiners. Doesn't surprise me in the slightest. Well done.
No surprises here. BIH is a barely functional state, Belarus is sanctioned, and North Macedonia is landlocked and has smaller touristic potential than Albania.
Happy about Albania, but really how do native people afford such prices there? I went there this summer and the prices were similar to Greece due to tourism.
Most albanians do not go to the tourist areas of the south for long as the prices are becoming ridiculous.
We albanians like to be way too greedy sometimes… we see tourists starting to come in and then immediately increase prices to maximum. Its very stupid and will ultimately only serve to turn people away.
There is no business model in these places at all, the owners just want to cash in on wave of tourism and dont see or dont care about building on a sustainable tourist culture that will last.
Albanias south is very nice yes but the infrastructure and service is no where near at the point that people can think of charging greece prices.
Albania got great potential with the coast, import and tourism get a lot more easier. Coastal countries are more often richer than landlocked so it was just a question of time before Albania would surpass us and Macedonia
Forget about Albania..what about Botswana!?!?
Wow didn't expect them to have such high GDP per capita, higher than Thailand, and many european countries.
Good job Botswana!
"Formerly one of the world's poorest countries—with a GDP per capita of about US$70 per year in the late 1960s—it has since transformed itself into an upper-middle-income country, with one of the world's fastest-growing economies"
Wow. Seeing such success stories from Africa is especially inspiring. Especially since according to wiki 70% of the country is literally the Kalahari Desert.
Don’t be deceived. It’s all Diamond money owned by the top 1%. The other 99% live in poverty. Look at their HDI, in 2014 before Botswana shamelessly stopped calculating inequality data, Botswanas IHDI was 0.426 Low, a 39% drop from their actual HDI. It’s one of the most unequal countries in the world. I’d much much rather live anywhere in Europe than there.
There is some truth in your reply 😉
EU only today stated that Albania is doing really well, not sure how you argue the artificiallity of Albania's economy...and we're talking about the 7th economy from the bottom, not a tiger 🤭
Everything EU says is true? The artificial rise of economy comes from the massive construction in Albania mainly in Tirana and in coastal parts of the country. Albania's construction industry launders millions of dollars. That's how we get an artificial rise, because the truth is nothing is really developing to help Albania grow economically.
Construction Industry is the only industry that has been in continous growth in Albania since like forever (after 1990) and like in every country (Eastern European, especially) it's the industry that launders the dirty money...nothing exceptional here. Turism on the other hand is something new and it is generating lots of money, which in my opinion explains Albania's economical growth.
Such a fairytale... You forget to take in consideration that albanian businesses commit tax evasion massively throughout the country. It helps the inflation grows, and our public debt too, and let's not forget how corrupted our politicians are and how much the drug trafficking plays part in this economic growth. The construction industry if it was somehow good it would have helped in the balancing of the house prices with such a high demand, but nope the opposite happened
Yea, the typical Albanian likes to pretend that they are unique in the fact that they have crime, and everywhere else in the world is a magical place where everyone obeys the law, takes no shortcuts, and makes sure that every I is dotted and every t is crossed.
It's been a little over 2 years since I've moved back, and the rapid growth is headspinning. Just on my walk around yesterday i saw small business posts on the window advertising that they needed cook starting at 100000L net. Help wanted posters are everywhere, a business that I'm starting just now is getting massive pre orders even before actual produce is out, Skenderbeg sq is a moshpit of tourists well past tourist season. I can keep going if u want
Don't mind the pessimists. I also returned from abroad, albeit many years ago. People have a short memory or they have nothing to compare to. Most albanians have no clue about the outside world but they're convinced it's better!
This is formal economy only. If drugs, money laundering and money from the diaspora were included then Albanias actual economy would probably be double the size
Or maybe just maybe the economy is actually growing well? Almost like Albania had 8.3 million foreign tourists from January to end of September. You’re making it seem like surpassing Bosnia and North Macedonia is such an impossible task. Every country has money laundering, it’s not like Albania is a special case.
Your question clearly had negative connotations. Besides how is my question stupid? It’s actually well fitted for this sub, Albania has never had a higher nominal GDP per capita than Belarus, Bosnia and North Macedonia until now. So I was wondering what people thought about it
It has negative connotation because the quality of the posts here has dropped to agenda posts or questions which start or end with the word "thoughts". What kind of answers do you expect?
Botswana wishes it was half the country North Macedonia is. Don’t be deceived, that’s Diamond money controlled by 1% of people. The rest live like anywhere else in Sub-Saharan Africa, in other words, extreme poverty.
That’s because 90% of current Albania was built between 1910 and 2010 when it was, in every sense of the word, piss poor. Trust me I stayed at an Airbnb in Tirana 2 weeks ago where from the outside the building looked like it had been bombed, but on the inside it was a completely modern and nice apartment. It’s gonna take a bit longer for Albania to look aesthetically richer
The annual AskBalkans census is going on at the moment. Do your thing and fill in the form, you only need like 3 mins and a Gmail account (its like a gatekeeper to make sure people only vote once). Form link, [click here.](https://forms.gle/zgU7phtJK8DBMVTq8) **Dont worry we dont keep the emails in some data base for future use.** Now go, click on the form link and spent 3 mins. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/AskBalkans) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Based on how many more tourists they get and how much they charge, I’m not surprised. I’m more surprised how they aren’t higher.
It is higher, black economy is almost the same as our official GDP. Most people I know are paid the minimum wage, but they get more underhand in order to pay less taxes. Businesses declare whatever revenue they feel like too. Our salaries were actually leaked last year, so many people in Tirana with 300 euros per month salaries lol My dog needs at least 200 euros per month...
Very true
Your dogs needs more money than my nana according to the gov
Compared to pretty much any other beach destination in europe, it is much cheaper here. Thats 1 reason why it has become popular.
That's because half of tourist revenue is going unreported. It's defacto higher
40% of the economy is informal so the reported figures are 60% of what it should be.
Agriculture is going well, wages are going up some even doubled in the private sector and they will still go up (people still leaving), half or more people don't even declare full earnings. Poor people are leaving too.
Construction wages are increasing also. Due to the high construction boom we have right now and also because there aren't any young people willing to work.
The private sector is going to be decent, probably next year will be even better. The public sector is always going to suffer because of political whores.
This is all sounding so familiar.
Because we live in the glorious region of Balkans and Bulgaria has had similar issues as Albania for longer.
I came first time in Albania last year and it gave me the impression of a country going in the right direction at full speed
That's hilarious because around when the current party came to power (they're on the 3rd term now), their slogan was something like "in the right direction" :D
I didn't know lol
ALBANIA SUPER POWER 2050 💪🏻😎🇦🇱🫡🦅
in 2050 probably 1.5 mill people left or less
Great, if they were in the EU the GDP per capita would have been double, Romania and Albania had the same GDP per capita after the fall of communism, but Romania joined EU and NATO early, and it has 18.500$ GDP per capita, and now we surpassed Hungary at buying power, hope the same future for Albania, they deserve it, and the country has a lot of potential, peace, coastline, tourism, openness to a huge rich market (EU).
The Private Public investment scheme is doing it's part. It was a nice way to legalize the billions of euros in cash, no questions asked, just put the money somewhere where everyone might benefit. Albania has done some massive steps forward compared to the ex Yugo countries, and it is at full speed. I remember Albania of 1998.... You can't believe it's the same place.
With that much coastline they only now surpassed BiH?
Being isolated for 70 plus years did its damage. 90s and early 2000s was rough for us. Within the last 10-15 years or so we made drastic changes to improve our overall economy. Unlike communist Albania. Communist Yugoslavia had booming tourism and great trade and relations with other countries. While we were stuck dealing with the ruskis and Chinese.
>Unlike communist Albania. Communist Yugoslavia had booming tourism and great trade and relations with other countries. While we were stuck dealing with the ruskis and Chinese. It was mostly bad foreign policy decisions that led to that. In the very early period, Yugoslavia and Albania were working very closely together and Yugoslavia was investing stupid boatloads of money into Albania, something like a third of Albania's entire annual GDP. Albania interpreted this as Tito buying his way into Albania (which it was, as both countries were preparing for unification and incorporation into Yugoslavia as a federal republic, possibly including Kosovo), so they broke up with Tito and turned to Stalin, losing by far its biggest investor and also next door neighbor and now depending on a superpower more than 1000km away. Later Hoxha accused Khruschev (I believe it was during his era) that he's not a real one and that he's not doing tru communism, so Albania also broke up with the USSR and became bros with China, a country where famines killing 60 million people were still happening, and a country on the literal other side of the planet. Later Albania isolated itself from China as well. Albania kind of worked its own way into becoming the only country in the world with zero allies for a while. Even North Korea had the USSR and China to keep it afloat, while Albania had nobody, and I'd argue Hoxha and co. mostly walked themselves into a corner with that one.
You seem to forget why Albania was paranoid. From 1860-1920 there was nothing but war and terror from all side in balkans against Albanians... Montenegrins, Serbs, Greeks and the Ottomans they were all trying to get a piece. The London treaty was a massive blow and basically gave away 60% of the Albanian Vilayet to those nations i mentioned, leaving 2-3 times more Albanians outside the border of their "country" than inside. Kosovo is a good example of a total catastrophe in "greater powers" drawing borders. Not to get political/historical here, but there was simply no allies, especially not Yugoslavia (they even played a role in electing Hoxha as a temporary solution). Kosovo did not bode much better in Yugoslavia either and when you compare the GDP it was the second poorest region in Europe (first being Albania). I personally don't agree with Hoxha's decisions either, but I can also get the paranoia, or maybe why some people put up with it initially. I have a feeling we would have been fucked regardless in 20th century.
Albania was literally Europe’s North Korea for like 50 years, what do you expect lol
same with romania, but compare the 2 countries
You’re joking right? Nicolae Ceaușescu was literally a democratic leader when compared to Hoxha.
democratic? haha, he was a full blown stalinist
You need to read up on basic history if you think the two are even remotely comparable
well they are
Hoxha killed like some % of his country, and imprisoned another 10%. He's more comparable Pol Pot than Ceaușescu. I know that Ceaușescu might have caused a lot of death indirectly, but even then imagine what Hoxha did, Albanians lived on the border of famine for 50 years. They're simply not comparable. Ceaușescu was a bad leader in Europe at the time. Hoxha goes down as one of the worst in human history, luckily he controlled an impoverished and small nation. Nicolae Ceaușescu was probably not even worse than Milosevic and co.
I'm impressed by Georgia only here, I doubt they get that EU support as much as these other countries.
It's because sanctioned goods are being routed through them as an intermediary. That and the surge in rental income from all the Russians voting with their feet. I.e it's not sustainable
I doubt that will make a bigger difference, but we will see.
Was there this year, they seem to be developing very nicely.
That is good to hear. I always wanted to visit Tbilisi and Batumi hahah, maybe one day who knows :D
The Caucasus nations don’t get that much support but they are developing their country to be more attractive . Especially Georgia 🇬🇪
Armenia 8,283 Georgia 8,165 Azerbaj 7,530
That’s really good for Albania, I hope the best for the country in the future. However Bosnia is being a bit too slow when it comes to development.
The growth itself is okay, inflation is the lowest in the region, we need to wait for the tax reform and highway construction to end. The easiest way to inflate the numbers is to take massive infrastructure loans that you'll pay off in 30 years like Serbia, but unless you have some natural resource no one else does you're now a slave of the IMF/WB.
>The easiest way to inflate the numbers is to take massive infrastructure loans that you'll pay off in 30 years like Serbia You call it GDP inflation, I call it infrastructural development. We can enjoy our lack of highways, underdeveloped railways, unequipped hospitals, but hey, our debt-to-GDP is a bit lower.
They have sea and good standing with US & EU (atleast better than Serbia), big ass diaspora, if they were to cut down on corruption & put in actual work to join the EU I can see an ok future for them, heck might even visit Albanian coast next year
Albanians are entrepreneurial, hard-working, opportunistic people, in every sense of the word, while we are weak-minded whiners. Doesn't surprise me in the slightest. Well done.
We are major whiners too dont worry about it...
Belarus being that high is amazing to me.
No surprises here. BIH is a barely functional state, Belarus is sanctioned, and North Macedonia is landlocked and has smaller touristic potential than Albania.
Yep. Was only a matter of time
Happy about Albania, but really how do native people afford such prices there? I went there this summer and the prices were similar to Greece due to tourism.
Most albanians do not go to the tourist areas of the south for long as the prices are becoming ridiculous. We albanians like to be way too greedy sometimes… we see tourists starting to come in and then immediately increase prices to maximum. Its very stupid and will ultimately only serve to turn people away. There is no business model in these places at all, the owners just want to cash in on wave of tourism and dont see or dont care about building on a sustainable tourist culture that will last. Albanias south is very nice yes but the infrastructure and service is no where near at the point that people can think of charging greece prices.
Albania got great potential with the coast, import and tourism get a lot more easier. Coastal countries are more often richer than landlocked so it was just a question of time before Albania would surpass us and Macedonia
I wanna shout out all the drug dealers man, thank you we don't know where we would be without y'all.
Forget about Albania..what about Botswana!?!? Wow didn't expect them to have such high GDP per capita, higher than Thailand, and many european countries. Good job Botswana! "Formerly one of the world's poorest countries—with a GDP per capita of about US$70 per year in the late 1960s—it has since transformed itself into an upper-middle-income country, with one of the world's fastest-growing economies" Wow. Seeing such success stories from Africa is especially inspiring. Especially since according to wiki 70% of the country is literally the Kalahari Desert.
Don’t be deceived. It’s all Diamond money owned by the top 1%. The other 99% live in poverty. Look at their HDI, in 2014 before Botswana shamelessly stopped calculating inequality data, Botswanas IHDI was 0.426 Low, a 39% drop from their actual HDI. It’s one of the most unequal countries in the world. I’d much much rather live anywhere in Europe than there.
It's an artificial rise of economy, we aren't really developing
Here is Sali Birisha's loyal...🤪
Can't talk the bitter truth without being labelled as a supporter of the guy who continued the path of the communists
There is some truth in your reply 😉 EU only today stated that Albania is doing really well, not sure how you argue the artificiallity of Albania's economy...and we're talking about the 7th economy from the bottom, not a tiger 🤭
Everything EU says is true? The artificial rise of economy comes from the massive construction in Albania mainly in Tirana and in coastal parts of the country. Albania's construction industry launders millions of dollars. That's how we get an artificial rise, because the truth is nothing is really developing to help Albania grow economically.
Construction Industry is the only industry that has been in continous growth in Albania since like forever (after 1990) and like in every country (Eastern European, especially) it's the industry that launders the dirty money...nothing exceptional here. Turism on the other hand is something new and it is generating lots of money, which in my opinion explains Albania's economical growth.
Such a fairytale... You forget to take in consideration that albanian businesses commit tax evasion massively throughout the country. It helps the inflation grows, and our public debt too, and let's not forget how corrupted our politicians are and how much the drug trafficking plays part in this economic growth. The construction industry if it was somehow good it would have helped in the balancing of the house prices with such a high demand, but nope the opposite happened
All this sounds pretty much the same as Serbian economy...
It's the same in the Balkans, we aren't that different in the issues we faces
Yea, the typical Albanian likes to pretend that they are unique in the fact that they have crime, and everywhere else in the world is a magical place where everyone obeys the law, takes no shortcuts, and makes sure that every I is dotted and every t is crossed.
So what? Where do you think USA's economy comes from, the Amish farmers? Get a grip on reality man, s'qeke n'terezi!
Lol, sure it isnt
You can elaborate more
It's been a little over 2 years since I've moved back, and the rapid growth is headspinning. Just on my walk around yesterday i saw small business posts on the window advertising that they needed cook starting at 100000L net. Help wanted posters are everywhere, a business that I'm starting just now is getting massive pre orders even before actual produce is out, Skenderbeg sq is a moshpit of tourists well past tourist season. I can keep going if u want
Don't mind the pessimists. I also returned from abroad, albeit many years ago. People have a short memory or they have nothing to compare to. Most albanians have no clue about the outside world but they're convinced it's better!
IMF considers BiH to have a population of 3,4 Million. The real population is 2,5-3,0 which would give us a number of 9,000-10,700
drug is helluva cocaine
Seen a lot of people mentioning drugs which is stupid cuz drug money is not included in the formal economy
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Money\_laundering
This is formal economy only. If drugs, money laundering and money from the diaspora were included then Albanias actual economy would probably be double the size
wow albania knows how to isolate formal economy from money laundering, i hope they reveal this secret to the rest of the world
Or maybe just maybe the economy is actually growing well? Almost like Albania had 8.3 million foreign tourists from January to end of September. You’re making it seem like surpassing Bosnia and North Macedonia is such an impossible task. Every country has money laundering, it’s not like Albania is a special case.
Bunch of hookers and cocaine
Why are these stupid "thoughts" posts always posted by albanians?
Cry about it
Don't get mad little man, I just asked a question, like you did before.
Your question clearly had negative connotations. Besides how is my question stupid? It’s actually well fitted for this sub, Albania has never had a higher nominal GDP per capita than Belarus, Bosnia and North Macedonia until now. So I was wondering what people thought about it
It has negative connotation because the quality of the posts here has dropped to agenda posts or questions which start or end with the word "thoughts". What kind of answers do you expect?
I guess they wouldnt be stupid if they were posted by another ethinicity, or am i wrong?
Lol, this kind of posts are always stupid, you're just assuming this based on my flair. Classic Strawman.
No
Cocaine pays doesn't it lmao
?
getting owned by Botswana pula is shameful for North Macedonia :)
Botswana wishes it was half the country North Macedonia is. Don’t be deceived, that’s Diamond money controlled by 1% of people. The rest live like anywhere else in Sub-Saharan Africa, in other words, extreme poverty.
you missed the pula joke dude
My brain somehow completely didn’t even register pula wtf
botswana pula is their currency while pula means dick in romania.
It means chicken in albanian lol
I was checking all night albania GDP yesterday and it was 18.8Bn and today it says 23bn . Emm what is going on here?
Thats because the 18 billion figure is from 2021.
Im not sure my brother.. [Statistica](https://tradingeconomics.com/albania/gdp) Gdp is updatet yearly as far as I know
Your source seems to be wrong. Check the International Monetary Fund page. Albania is currently at 23 billion
It seemed poor to me still
That’s because 90% of current Albania was built between 1910 and 2010 when it was, in every sense of the word, piss poor. Trust me I stayed at an Airbnb in Tirana 2 weeks ago where from the outside the building looked like it had been bombed, but on the inside it was a completely modern and nice apartment. It’s gonna take a bit longer for Albania to look aesthetically richer
Is this in PPP dollars? If so, then it's discussable.
No it’s nominal
They had alot of tourism, albania is a pretty nice place to visit