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It's just a cultural event. A bit like Easter, Halloween, weddings etc.
I'm not religious in the slightest, but I did have two church weddings with my wife.
We did this, too. He's British, I'm not. We didn't have church weddings, but we did just have one wedding on each continent, as it made much more sense.
The (very small) legal wedding was here in Scotland, followed by lunch at a nearby restaurant. The American wedding was officiated by my friend and wasn't a legal ceremony, it was just the traditional big white dress and catered reception show.
As someone who has family in two different countries, how does this work? I didn't think you could get legally married twice (assuming the two countries recognise each other)?
We got married by signing papers at the local government office. Nine months later, we flew to Wales and had a wedding at a church. After that, we flew to Japan and had another wedding at a wedding chapel in Tokyo.
A decent amount of the time that people get married in a church in the UK it isn't legally binding, they do the legal bit before or afterwards at a registry office. The ceremony is what people are there for, and you can have a wedding ceremony as many times as you like.
I attended my first Christening last year. I found it slightly cringeworthy and funny just how much the vicar almost pleaded with everyone to keep in the sucking-up-to-sky-daddy club.
To add to that, we did it to give my kids a greater chance of getting a place at the C of E school attached to the church. It was one of the best schools in the city with only 30 kids in each year. It gave them a great start with my daughter now into her 4th year in uni to become a vet and my son finishing his a levels starting uni in 12 months. A good church primary school will set you up for a good church senior school.
The weddings bit might differ based on where you are in the country.
In Scotland, Northern Ireland, or Jersey, you can have a humanist wedding and everything is done legally during that.
In England/Wales/Guernsey/Isle of Man, Humanist weddings don't have a legal status, so people are more likely to have a religious wedding.
I'm in Scotland, and every wedding I've been to has been a humanist ceremony, they're getting more common here.
Scotland is the least religious part of the UK though, with a majority now recording themselves as having no religious on the census.
There are a lot of civil weddings or partnerships in England and Wales now. They are just like registry office weddings but in outdoor locations or hotels or converted barns. No mention of God or religion in them. The last 5 or so weddings I attended were like this. Two of them were civil partnerships.
Humanist and religious weddings are not the only two options. Civil weddings are the traditional secular alternative to religious weddings, where a registrar legally marries you. Humanist weddings are still sort of ideological because generally celebrants have to have a belief in humanism in order to become one. There are a lot more of them than registrars though so it's easier to get married by one. In some countries/US states anyone can legally marry someone with a short online course, which IMO would be the ideal situation.
I always felt they were like introductions of the baby to the extended family, I suppose now they're more a hedge for getting in more religious and potentially better performing schools
The schools have become wise to this, our local church school insists you regularly attend church and you need "proof" that you attend.
Without the proof you go to the bottom of the list unless you hit other criteria (eg looked after children, siblings etc)
this has been the way for at least 20 years and i'd wager longer. very normal for faith schools to require proof, i'd extremely be surprised to learn that they ever didn't.
Yeah I started Catholic secondary in '98 and needed my baptismal stuff from Scotland *and* letters from ministers etc. saying I was a life-long weekly attendee at the Methodist chapel down here.
Pain in the arse (and they were definitely using other criteria, I don't remember any of the other non-catholics being streamed into the bottom sets) but it's a good education.
Never underestimate pushy parents - my colleague & his wife were non-religious, but they attended church every Sunday without fail for like 1-2 years before their kid went to school to make sure their kids got in. Kept up their attendance for 2 more years until the younger one got in, then never went back.
I never understood why schools that are state funded are allowed to be religious. surely if it is funded by the state, it should be secular and the only selection criteria should be proximity and ability (assuming it isn't a comprehensive)
A school, any school, gets a set amount of money per child per year to provide education - it's about 7.5k without pupil premium iirc. It's only classed as a "state" school if it's under direct control of the local education authority and therefore the rest of the money is also coming from the state because it costs far more than 1-1.5mil to educate 200 kids a year at primary level. Faith schools make up the short fall from the church/synagogue/mosque they're attached to.
I don't disagree with you, but the reason is because the head of the state is also the head of the church. We are legally not a secular nation, even if we sometimes operate as one in practice.
I would be surprised if there wasn't some kind of reform over the next 20 years, but it is nobody's priority.
One of the reasons is that most free schools used to be organised by churches. Not necessarily the state church, though the CofE was a major player via parishes. So many of the schools are funded because they were there before the state organised schools directly. It’s similar to the way that Attree’s government didn’t nationalise hospitals and doctors’ practices to fund the NHS.
One of my colleague has been taking his kids to church every Sunday for nearly a year and collecting “stamps” as proof for application to the associated catholic school. It’s so stupid
Fair enough in a way if it's one where the faith community is paying the capital costs - almost find it weirder to pretend to believe in church for a year to get them into a school whose ethos they don't agree with/think is stupid.
When my mum and dad wanted to send my older sister to the local Roman Catholic school back in the 90s, my mum took the hit and had to take me and my sisters to church every Sunday to ensure we would all get in. Prior to that, we were christened as well for the same reason.
They usually end up better performing because families with the wherewithal to get to church regularly enough to 'fake' their way in, or just families that are a regularly a part of a church anyway tend to be more ordered and that lends itself to doing well in a classroom setting.
Can see it at my kids school. 50% of intake is church places, the other 50% is local catchment area and the difference in behaviour is noticeable
Edit: typo
It's not necessarily even families that attend Church, it's parents who are both willing and able to do all the things that get points for years, even if they're just paying lip service, because the Church school is the most sought-after in the neighbourhood due to its perceived excellence.
Those are the same parents who'll provide a really good home environment and role models for academic achievement.
My parents not only took us all to Church for a decade but both used to volunteer their time to help. We all quit attending Church after my youngest sibling got in to the good school.
Oh and it turned out that the school is a hotbed of under-achievement and when they finally got an OFSTED inspection again after *many* years of being allowed to keep an Outstanding rating without being inspected, they were rated Requires Improvement. It's just that they select for dedicated (and to some extent well off) parents so they have a cohort of extremely high-achieving kids.
You don’t need money to get to a church. They are usually in walking distance, and most that I know have substantial numbers of working class people.
Or are you referring to having to work on a Sunday morning? There are other services at many churches.
It’s not a matter of “having the wherewithal”.
School places is a big one. I know a lot of kids who only got christened to get into the best school in the area. My eldest went to a well-performing faith school because it was the only school that happened to have a place midway through the year when we moved to the area. Since he was leaving when my second son would be starting school, we couldn't get a sibling place so the only way to get my second son into the school would be attending church and getting him Christened. I had SO many parents offering to coach me on the process to ensure we got a place, it was ridiculous. We just went with a different school.
Always puzzled me too, my siblings and I were all christened, and I think it's the only time my family stepped foot in a church, and they didn't keep the candles we were given or take photos, so really weird lol. Also I know loads of people who ask friends to be "godparents" to their children even though they don't get them christened... I mean if that's the case, then why not say honorary aunt/uncle instead of godparents? I can only guess it's just the "done thing"
God parents are supposed to raise you, in the event your parents die. They are supposed to swear to help encourage your faith throughout your life and instruct you on morals, etc. They're supposed to be your parents bffs, or the people they trust you with most, outside of family. At least one of these things ended up being untrue even when it was taken seriously. So now it's mostly a token gesture of friendship.
Yeah the term is so loosely used now , when I was little, those people would be known as "aunt/uncle" if non religious and Godparents were selected for christenings, but I guess meanings change with times and trends. I've always been baffled as to why I was christened with a non religious family, but again, probably just what people did.
I'm a 'guide parent' to my best friend's daughter, whose aunt took the role of godmother at her christening. Because it's not just a party - the whole point of the ceremony is standing in front of a group of people in a church and formally promising to ensure the child is brought up in the Christian faith. And I'm an atheist Jew. So I'm essentially her godmother in all but name.
And that was really important hundreds of years ago because many mothers died after giving birth. That's why christenings often happened on the day of the birth. Today, just a day out for the family.
I am a “godparent” to a child of friends of ours. The service was a humanist naming ceremony and the name used for our role was “accompanying adult”. But really, who’s going to use that term at any time other than during the service?
I’m not a godparent, because her parents specifically chose not to have a religious ceremony, but what other word is there? What word is there for her relationship to me other than goddaughter?
I'm a humanist naming celebrant and the term most people choose is 'guideparent' - although I have also seen 'guardian', 'odparent' and even 'fairy odmother' !
I have Guardianship to my sister's kids - meaning that legally, they'd move into my care if both parents were trampled by a rhinoceros or similar. I certainly haven't made any pledge to raise them in any belief system.
Is that the secular equivilant? I don't think that Godparent has any legal status - a bit like how Marriage is only recognised by the state once the register is signed, regardless of ceremony or if you're married in the eyes of your faith?
I've seen Godparenting done as a tit-for-tat exchange among couples and a way of getting an extra uncle/aunt type figure. Even ones where one half of a couple has been asked to be Godfather and someone else unconnected to that person has been asked to be Godmother - which doesn't seem consistent with 'will raise these children in the event of their parent's death.'
Maybe it's more in the 'will encourage our moral/faith based standards' and give them a nice gift on birthdays and do some extra babysitting style now?
One of my family friends became a godparent and was told one of their duties was to buy a nice bottle of champagne each year for the child's birthday so they would have it in reserves for their 18th birthday party haha so that's what they've been doing each year. Definitely think expectations have been more relaxed now for godparents
That's cute. I'd heard the 'Buy a bottle of whiskey from their birth year so it will age into something valuable/drinkable by their 18th/21st/whatever.'
More relaxed? Demigodparents? Buy a can of lager every year so they have enough to get hammered on on their 16th?
But imagine saying at work “I’m backup parent to a little girl and I need to buy her a birthday present” People would wonder what you’d been drinking.
It’s so much easier and widely understood to say “I’m buying a birthday present for my goddaughter” even though it’s not factually correct. She’s 17 now and she’s always referred to us as her godparents. Everyone just sort of knows what that means.
I'm a 'Godlessparent' to two friends babies! They didn't want to touch religion with a 10 foot pole but still wanted the welcome and community for their kids.
One of them literally gave me a card that said 'will you be friends with my kid?' 😅
I guess they'd just hope you don't "corrupt" them tooooo much lol 😂 if I was ever asked, I'd probably just say I'd be more comfortable being an Auntie, haha
I’ve only ever been to 3 christenings in my whole life and I’m nearly 40 and one of them was my own when I was a baby. I went to one which was basically just a piss up and then my sister has her kid christened catholic as she married a catholic man and it was important to his family who were very churchy. There was only 6 of us who went as they really just did it cause her MIL really believed the baby might end up in hell if they didn’t then we went for a scone and a cup of tea.
My kids aren’t christened. Seems like a waste of time and money.
I think if 20% of people you know go to mass then you're surrounded by people for whom religion is a much bigger deal culturally. I don't know anyone who goes to any denomination of church except maybe midnight mass at Christmas. We're at the phase in our lives where we're at multiple weddings a year and only two out of 15+ have been in churches.
Yea I’m from Northern Ireland, it’s basically cultural here, not really religious, although there still are some religious people, usually older though, im 25 and very little people my age go to mass, go to the 60+ age group though and it gets more common
I think Protestants here are actually more likely to be very religious than Catholics, but the non religious but culturally Catholic/Protestant is probs most common thing
That was my thought. I'm not christened, my kids aren't christened, I've been to lots of friends' weddings but the only christenings I've been to were for friends who were religious.
I wish more people did ‘naming days’ or similar, I get the urge to celebrate a new baby but god I hate sitting in churches listening to tiny innocent children being referred to as sinners and the whole ‘Christ claims you’ that sounds vaguely threatening
I’ve just never heard these types of sermons in any CofE I’ve ever been in so thought maybe it was another denomination.
I’ve always been taught that the original sin means a relationship removed from god. The baptism brings the child into the family of the church and then that original sin is removed.
That was a CofE that taught me that but understand it varies from place to place.
I don’t personally believe babies are born with sin. I’ve never heard babies called sinners during any services I’ve ever attended. The focus has always been welcoming them to the church, not the removal of any sun.
Article 9 of the Church of England talks of original sin meaning the nature of a person has a propensity towards sin. It doesn't mean a baby has literally sinned.
The liturgy for baptism in C of E has many references to God saving sinners, though where this occurs it's talking about the ongoing relationship between God and church community that the baby is joining.
I'm unaware of any point in the actual C of E liturgy that a baby is called a sinner in the sense they've done something wrong. Happy to be corrected.
Hell no let’s not have any more baby days at all 😂 it’s lovely when friends/family have kids but can’t be doing with gender reveals, baby showers, christenings, naming days for every sprog that pops out.
I'm with you on baby showers and gender reveals, they should be illegal! One party to celebrate a safely arrived actually existing new baby that isn't a shameless present grab or just attention seeking is ok though I think.
Agreed! If you want a baby shower, have a baby shower - if you want a christening, have a christening. You get one party, I’ll buy a present and make a big fuss of you, and then that’s your lot from me lmao. (Not wanting to sound miserable - I am truly happy for my friends and loveeee holding and getting to know their babies - but it doesn’t need a big song and dance multiple times over).
Sorry no, don't have a baby shower, never have a baby shower! If you want a party wait till the kid is safely arrived and have one then. And buy your own baby stuff please!
I'm pregnant right now and agree with this completely. Celebration _after_ baby arrives. We're thinking of doing a 100 days party- it's common in lots of East Asia, where my husband is from. You celebrate the baby getting to 100 days old, and by that time you're a little more recovered from the birth so might actually enjoy seeing relatives.
Because it is a cultural practice that is common amongst members of the community. Just like how people still generally have weddings even though all they need to do is get a document signed with a legal official. And people still have funerals even though the deceased doesn't care what happens to them anymore. It is just a normal part of the culture and it is something people are accustomed to doing.
Yeah it’s a life milestone and I see it as a celebration to have all friends and family together to celebrate the new baby. I love the naming ceremony etc for people who don’t want to involve the church
I do attend church occasionally though, like once a month.
Out families aren’t religious but they wouldn’t attend a naming ceremony cause they’re stuck in their ways and don’t value anything the younger generations try to do.
I'm leaning towards the excuse for a party. I've never been christened/baptised although my husband was. We are both atheist so our kids were never subject to religious ceremonies either.
We had a massive party for their first birthdays though. They were too young to remember how good it was so no expectations for the next lot of parties but a lovely event for all the family from far away to say hello.
Religious stuff has lots of awesome history that is understood by most. A day off to attend your family members christening has a greater importance socially than attending a kids first birthday etc.
Schools are often a huge incentive too. The religious schools near me are often top rated for exam scores and regularly match the grammar school scores.
I was christened in the early 70’s, by a family that had been atheists for at least the past three generations.
Basically it was all a bit ‘Pascal’s wager’, in that if I died, and there was a god, they didn’t want me going to purgatory or something. If god doesn’t exist at least I got a free face wash out of it.
As my mum nears the end of her life, she is still vehemently atheist, but still says that if there is a god then she’ll spit in his face when she dies 😂
She also thinks that there is ‘something’ after you die, as she believes in ghosts (because she thinks she saw one first), so her spiritual philosophy is a bit mixed and vaguely inconsistent…
But yeah, Pascal’s wager, even if she wouldn’t verbalise it like that.
You’d have to ask yourself, if there is a god and he’d happily punish an innocent child because their parents didn’t do a daft ritual with ‘magic’ water, is that the kind of loving god you’d want allegiance with? A lot of god stories make him sound more villain than hero.
That’s interesting. My mum wasn’t christened as her mum lost her faith (this is in the fifties) then I wasn’t so I didn’t christen mine (in the 2000’s) so on the female side our kids are third generation atheists. I would be very surprised if my grandkids end up being christened (but I don’t rule it out).
My mum has this same view and would like me to get my daughter christened. Bizzarely she holds this "Pascal's wager" even though she was brought up C of E. The whole purgatory unless baptised is a Catholic thing not a CofE one.
Pretty genius invention from the Catholic church to be fair. Still holds some sway now even with people of different churches!
Irrespective of eternal purgatory, I am not planning on getting my daughter christened as me and my wife are atheists.
I only know people who are at least mildly religious who have had a christening. I think some people have ‘naming day’ parties just to have a celebration in its place but I don’t know anyone personally who has done that so I’m not sure just how common they are. My husband and I are atheist so there’s no way I’d have had a christening. That would feel awkward at best.
Yeah I can’t help thinking it’s hugely hypocritical to have a church christening and absolutely no interest in going to church. The whole theme is about raising the infant in the faith and helping them turn away from devilish influence etc. nothing secular about it at all.
I think atheist christmasses work because midwinter festivals pre-date Christianity by thousands of years, so when you hear folk talk about ‘the real meaning of Christmas’ it amuses me. It had nothing to do with wise men, virgins magically becoming pregnant 🤨babies in stables, and everything to do with brightening the dark days with food, drink and good company.
>The whole theme is about raising the infant in the faith and helping them turn away from devilish influence etc. nothing secular about it at all
I don’t think you have to believe in God to take some meaning from that and want to apply it to your child. Our culture is inseparably linked with Christianity and even though I may not be religious, I share many of the values and sentiments purely by nature of being raised in the U.K.
Exactly. And a none religious Christmas can happen at home without taking up time in a church, listening to prayers and blessings that you don’t believe in, making promises to raise your child in a faith you have no intention of raising them in, etc. For a Christening, I’d feel like I was being disrespectful to both my own convictions and to the beliefs of those whose space I was taking up.
Same. Cant think of one of my friends who had their baby Christened. Although apparently my big sister christened me at the bottom of the garden when I was a baby as a nun told her that anyone unchristened would go to hell. (Charming thing to say to an 8 year old)
My sister chose a naming ceremony over a christening as they were very secular. I don't think christenings should be automatic as there is another option, and too many people make promises to raise the child in the church that they have no intention of keeping.
I've been to a few of those and apart from the church bit they're pretty much the same, a chance for a piss up and get together.
There's even the god parent thing at well, although I was officially classed as a guardian I'm called the fairy godfather which is a fun role to embrace
I think if you aren't genuinely religious it is self indulgent and cheapens religion. It makes me feel lesser of people who do it. Also how do you know your baby will grow up wanting to be Christian? You should wait until they are old enough to decide for themselves.
When we had our baby my mum was very keen to have the rellies get together and welcome the new arrival. I wouldn’t have objected to a christening but my husband is pretty fiercely atheist. It did make sense to have a family event to mark the occasion. I suggested a “100 days” ceremony as a compromise, it’s something the Koreans do. We basically had some cake in a hotel one afternoon but it did the job. We’re not religious so we had to do some cultural appropriation to get an event that made sense to us when an event was needed.
We're thinking of doing a 100 days party too! Husband is Japanese. His sister did a 100 days photoshoot for her baby, where the family got together and dressed up nicely.
As someone involved in Christian ministry in the Church of England, I am indeed often perplexed why people who don’t care anything about Jesus or the church bring their children to be baptised.
Especially since in the ceremony itself it says that the child is to be baptised into the faith that the parents and godparents presumably hold. I mean, of course I’d welcome any and all interest that people express! But to go through that simply for the sake that it’s the ‘done thing’ seems like a massive waste of time at best and at worst… slightly disingenuous??
Yeah 100% and it really is hard to ask people who choose to do it yet have no intention of bringing their children up going to church or whatever why they do it without them getting offended. Really don’t get the logic and I honestly just think it’s fishing for gifts in those cases.
Probably for the same reason so many people will answer “church of England” when asked what their religion is. Despite the fact they’ve never been to church, never read the bible and don’t even believe in god.
It’s tradition, or the “proper” thing to do. Or they feel it makes them appear to be a better person.
I think it’s a dying trend though. Fewer and fewer young parents are doing this.
Some schools require it. My friends got their son christened because they wanted him to attend a certain primary school as it is much closer to their house than others. It also performs better than others.
I haven't had my daughter christened and before I applied for primary school place's I looked round the local schools, I was told that there wasn't much chance of a non Christened child getting a place at that particular school. My friends kid didn't get a place as they don't regularly attend church.
Because there is a piss up afterward. This is the rationale behind most British events.
Work? Well we can go for a pint after.
Football? We can go for a pint before and after.
Wedding? Good excuse for a piss up.
Holiday? Will there be cheap booze?
Weekly shopping trip? That’s where they sell booze.
Gym? Burn some calories so you can consume some booze.
I could go on.
Your hunch is correct. It's an excuse for a family day out and photos.
It is also nice to formalise 'godparent' roles as that provides further excuses in future years to get together with friends. (Godparents coming over for kid's birthday and such).
Most Athiests these days in the UK either dont bother, or have a secular baby naming ceremony.
It's a cultural event and a time parents formally introduce the baby to wider family, friends and community.
Source: Me. Humanist Celebrant.
Just for a piss up/attention, I've been to 2 christenings in the last 3 years, all the parents were chavs and hardly lived a fruitful good Christian life.
Personally I will never have my child christened, that's a choice and if they want to join a religion that can be their choice.
It’s just cultural. A staunch atheist who has questioned religion prob wouldn’t do one (I didn’t for my kid, just as our wedding had absolutely zero references to religion), but someone who is culturally Christian and doesn’t really care or have feelings on it either way will probably do it because they had one and their family expect it. Plus it functions as a ‘get the family together and meet the baby!’ event. You can have one of those in a non-religious way but christenings are easier and more understood.
Religion and culture overlap in a big way, look how many of us celebrate Christmas and eat Easter eggs despite not being religious.
Is it that common? When we did antenatal classes, we kept in touch with the other parents, and out of five babies, only one was christened. (And that couple was super duper Christian.) I think that's the only christening I've ever been invited to in my life.
I realize that's a small sample.
A number of people I know think you have to get the baby christened for the name to be legal.
I've not really got the heart to tell them they're wrong.
I used to attend an Anglican Church, and it was always obvious when we had christenings. There would be a big group of people we’d never seen before (or indeed see again) all dressed up very fancy. They’d have a “proper” christening with all the liturgy and getting baby wet… including promising to raise the child in the Christian faith, and that they themselves were Christian.
Families actually from the church would opt for a thanksgiving or blessing instead.
I’m getting my 7 month old christened this week, despite neither of us being religious and the main reasons are -
To have a party to welcome him into the world, getting all of our family and friends together.
Will get him into the primary school we want him to go to.
My mother in law and other family members are religious so will be nice for them. She takes him to church with her a bit already and I’ve got no problem with him continuing to go as he gets older if he wants to, as the teachings will help him to be a nice person.
There’s a Chinese buffet guy that I’ve been waiting for an excuse to use for a party.
My wife wants to do it for ours. I'm not particularly interested. When I brought up the subject she cried at the idea of not doing it.
So, to extrapolate from my wife, I guess plenty of people still find meaning in it? She believes in principle but in the decade since I've known her she's only gone to church for a couple of Christmas days and she had immediately family in the priesthood, so the institution probably still has influence on her beyond the week-to-week
The last christening I went to was explicitly to make sure the kids got into ‘the good school’.
It actually kind of annoyed me as I wouldn’t have bothered going if they had told me beforehand rather than drunkenly laughing about it at the party.
I think this is maybe an English thing. I’m Scottish and was very surprised when I found out my atheist English friend, from atheist English parents, was christened.
Only christenings I’ve heard of here are around Glasgow (a more religious area) to catholic parents.
Dude, if you think the UK is bad, you should see Ireland - big full day blow-out shindig. The child won't see the inside of a church again until Communion (rinse repeat the party) and then Confirmation a few years later. Gotta keep the indoctrination train running, toot toot
You get loads of loot. At any Christening I've been to all the presents get sold almost immediately to raise funds for the child's necessities.
It's a bit cheeky but the way people see it is they wouldn't normally come into hundreds or thousands of pounds worth of presents & they would rather host an event to get that money than just do the rounds asking to borrow money which you then need to pay back.
England has had a rocky religious history, and due to Protestantism having been so ingrained in culture at one point, Baptisms have moved from religious to cultural events in many ways. Sure there’s definitely a “social media pic” aspect to it, but it is undeniable apart of the “random British habits” that make up the cultures within the UK.
It's a way of introducing your whole family to the new baby and also an excuse for a little teaparty or smth afterwards. Tah-dah, here's the new baby and btw the name is ____, now let's go back to the house for cake and sandwiches. My theory is that it's a combination of 'it's tradition' and less American than having a baby shower. I was christened and my parents are aetheist, I think my dad's parents are religious though, so it was possibly also an 'appease the in-laws' situation.
I think it’s a Catholic thing. Lapsed Catholics tend to christen their children, they find it hard to completely break away. Lapsed Protestants don’t tend to have the same family pressure / guilt trip, therefore don’t usually bother.
Some people just want to dress their poor baby in a nylon frilly nightmare of a frock to show off to family, and on social media.
And some people now just hold a ‘meet the baby’ celebration. Far more civilised.
If my nephew's christening is anything to go by, it was definitely not free.
I think it's new parents worrying they're not doing the right thing, so going through the steps they see other parents doing, so even if they aren't really religious, just vaguely christian, they'll see it as an opportunity to do a good-parent thing. "what do we do with this new baby?" "christen it? take it to a sea life centre?"
And it's also nice for the older family members to dote over a tiny child.
As well, making your friend, or close family friend a god parent is like a mini honours list from the parents.
I'm church of England, got christened. Asked my mum why when I was about 8, when my little sister was born and preparing for a christening.
Her reply?
"I don't really believe in the whole Christianity thing, but just in case there are pearly gates on the other side, you're guaranteed entry."
Not sure it works like that, but there's that.
My partner is also christened C of E, his older sister and middle sister are, but his younger brother and younger sister aren't - that was more of an effort situation.
Edit; grammar.
According to christian religion several things are simultaneously true:
1) God is all loving and all-forgiving of even the worst sins if you truly repent in your heart
2) you can't fuck women unless you pay the vicar £400 to perform a 'right to fuck' ceremony and wrap part of one of their limbs in a non-reactive strip of dense metal.
3) not being christened is an absolutely utterly unforgiveable sin, and the baby 100% will burn screaming hell for all eternity even if it commited not a single sin. So give the vicar some cash, he'll throw the baby in a stone pot filled with tapwater he's cast magic spells on (its a combo of Dispel Evil and a forceshield that prevents Atheism and/or "the gays"), and the baby will then get into heaven!
To acquire Godparents - who should be non-relatives who then have an additional duty of care/assistance towards their Godchildren - plus gifting them presents on Birthdays etc.
Humans like rituals, and patterns. It helps to solidify community and encourage bonding which are useful social tools to keep the community cohesive and ultimately safe.
My wife wasn't christened, and when the time came, we didn't have our daughter christened. My wife would identify as agnostic and I'm anti-theist atheist. I don't recall any expectation of having our daughter christened or pressure to do so.
I appreciate that this is anecdote rather than data 😁
If there are non believer parents having their children baptised, could it be the to with getting into a C of E school?
The only people I know who had their kids christened are Christian, even if they aren't regular church goers.
I wasn't christened, neither were my kids.
We love a good christening, gets the family together, gives us access to schools and wedding venues... buffets, food, party, dash of Jesus for a cameo. Why wouldn't we have a christening?
A lot of people round here get their children baptised/christened (and then go to church for a bit) so they can get them into the "good" Catholic or CofE primary school.
I think a lot of it is/was pressure from older family members - get Johnny/Sally baptised or grandma will never shut up about it.
We never had any of ours baptised (all in their 30s now) and were lucky enough not to have any family pressures (or at least none made known to us - I suspect my mum wasn't happy, but said nothing).
Continuing the family tradition none of our five grandchildren have been baptised either.
We got ours dipped because husband / his family are religious but also it’s easy to say kids will choose their own faith when they get older but if they aren’t christened then I felt that it might be harder for them to choose to follow Christianity if they aren’t already part of the church community.
They think of it the same as a wedding or funeral, just something you do and get everyone together in a pretty setting. It is dropping though, I have only ever been to two. They are awful, you have a whole church service going on first with drab hymns and god chat. The ceremony with water on their head is plain weird. You don't even get booze after.
Tradition, an excuse for a party, school admissions, pressure from family.
I'm not christened and neither are my children, but you should've seen my MIL's face when I told her I had no intention of christening my children. She's lovely, I think it just hadn't occurred to her that it was optional.
If they choose to do something along those lines when they're old enough to make and understand the promises themselves, that's fine by me.
The secular alternative is a naming ceremony, I think.
My sisters in laws sister announced she was christening her youngest kid, so i said “oh i didn’t know you were religious!” … on a wind up basically bc i know she isn’t. She said “i’m NOT! i don’t believe in any of it”…. so why the fuck are you christening your kid then lmao. She just wanted a huge party and a piss up and for people to give her gifts and money and vouchers.
Excuse to dressup, have cake and take photos.
Same with young people who wear crosses. It's a fashion statement.
And local catholic schools- filled with working class kids whose parents didn't want them to go to a comprehensive that is majority ethnic although that thinking is changing as we become more diverse and non Christian kids are going to affiliated schools more
In many cases these days I suspect couples do it to keep their parents or Grandparents happy, or for family tradition where they've been handed down a christening dress and feel the need to use it.
We did it because my wife believes there is some form of god but not entirely sure what it is so she isn’t a full on Christian. She felt it was the right thing to do though as she has some believe in a higher purpose.
We were offered a naming ceremony as an alternative, we didn't do anything though and did end up with some backlash, especially from older family members/once a random old lady on the street...
I'm not baptised, which seems to shock some people. Also, we had a secular wedding. Yet most of my family got married in church and had their kids baptised, despite never going to church! Why? Seems like utter hypocrisy to me.
I call it a 'Social Acceptance Ritual' but 'Introduction' is better.
I'm going to one in a few weeks but I've said I'll only come to the event afterwards.
It's more tragic when people go to a church a few times so they can get married there, before never setting foot again.
God, I truly have no idea. My cousin had a church wedding and a christening for both her kids - before the church wedding had to start going to church in order to have the banns read - and I have no idea why she bothered. I mean I guess it’s hypocritical of me, because I celebrate Christmas and Easter, but I’ve never understood it.
A lot of parents do it to keep one or more of their parents happy, or even just to keep the local vicar happy. Hedging their bets, no harm in it, why not?
I've only been to a couple church christenings (and a few after-parties), but several naming ceremonies and a few 'baby-warmings' - like a housewarming party.
One of the christenings had mildly-believing parents but devout grandparents, the other was quite blatant that the relatives wouldn't have turned up without the church bit and wouldn't have given them as many presents...
Tradition. For close to 1000 years Christianity has been a thing in this country (in other smaller numbers for closer to 2000). Why not keep a tradition going?
It isn’t free, or at least it wasn’t for either of my two children. I’m Italian, born in Manchester, and everyone in my family is baptised Catholic so I just did it for mine so they’d be treated the same as the rest of the family. It’s nice. If you believe, then you’re free of original sin and become one of ‘God’s children’. If you don’t believe, then it’s just a bit of water on their head and a few presents. Nice to keep the elders happy and the tradition alive.
We had our daughter christened in the church where we were married when she was 2. Neither my wife or I are Christian but both view the church as part of the community and also the wider history of the country.
It was nice to be able to invite friends and family for an event that was positive, as all to often it's only Weddings, Funerals and Christenings that extended families get together. It was doubly nice having had our daughter in 2020 so a lot of folk hadn't seen in each other for the previous couple of years.
Probably to make grandparents happy? I think my mother-in-law would have liked it if my daughter was christened and if my own parents had the same feeling it might be harder to not. She wants to get my daughter a silver bracelet? I didn't even know that was a thing. I wasn't christened and haven't ever attended a christening so I don't know anything about it.
My mum told me the other day that she had a sudden deep, dark, irrational thought of "what if hell's real?" and started spiralling so they decided to christen me so I wouldn't go to hell (mostly for peace of mind) and then that same day booked the church for their wedding
Schools. Some schools in England you can only get into if you’ve been christened.
We had a naming ceremony for our son as I (atheist) feel very strongly he should choose his own religion as and when he is old enough to do so. But it would have made it unlikely he’d have got a place at the local oversubscribed CofE school had we stayed living in England. As it was we moved to Scotland before he started school so it wasn’t an issue.
I don't have kids so I may have misunderstood this but I think that some people I know that are non-religious and have christened their children did it to make them eligible to attend the local school.
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It's just a cultural event. A bit like Easter, Halloween, weddings etc. I'm not religious in the slightest, but I did have two church weddings with my wife.
The ancient tradition of the 2* church weddings
Two different countries. Was easier than bringing everyone over to one country.
We did this, too. He's British, I'm not. We didn't have church weddings, but we did just have one wedding on each continent, as it made much more sense. The (very small) legal wedding was here in Scotland, followed by lunch at a nearby restaurant. The American wedding was officiated by my friend and wasn't a legal ceremony, it was just the traditional big white dress and catered reception show.
So no Elvis that’s disappointing
Lol! My grandmother would have loved it if we’d gone that route, but alas for her, we did not.
As someone who has family in two different countries, how does this work? I didn't think you could get legally married twice (assuming the two countries recognise each other)?
We got married by signing papers at the local government office. Nine months later, we flew to Wales and had a wedding at a church. After that, we flew to Japan and had another wedding at a wedding chapel in Tokyo.
A decent amount of the time that people get married in a church in the UK it isn't legally binding, they do the legal bit before or afterwards at a registry office. The ceremony is what people are there for, and you can have a wedding ceremony as many times as you like.
He's just that married
She's your wife^2 now.
lol wife4life
2 wife 2 furious
Give us yer ring, Annie!
Basically. It’s probably religious to some people, but I feel like for most it’s just cultural/tradition at this point.
I attended my first Christening last year. I found it slightly cringeworthy and funny just how much the vicar almost pleaded with everyone to keep in the sucking-up-to-sky-daddy club.
To add to that, we did it to give my kids a greater chance of getting a place at the C of E school attached to the church. It was one of the best schools in the city with only 30 kids in each year. It gave them a great start with my daughter now into her 4th year in uni to become a vet and my son finishing his a levels starting uni in 12 months. A good church primary school will set you up for a good church senior school.
So lie about your belief in god for personal gain. Yeah can't exactly blame you.
Exactly
Indeed. Tradition.
The weddings bit might differ based on where you are in the country. In Scotland, Northern Ireland, or Jersey, you can have a humanist wedding and everything is done legally during that. In England/Wales/Guernsey/Isle of Man, Humanist weddings don't have a legal status, so people are more likely to have a religious wedding. I'm in Scotland, and every wedding I've been to has been a humanist ceremony, they're getting more common here. Scotland is the least religious part of the UK though, with a majority now recording themselves as having no religious on the census.
What about registry offices and the like?
There are a lot of civil weddings or partnerships in England and Wales now. They are just like registry office weddings but in outdoor locations or hotels or converted barns. No mention of God or religion in them. The last 5 or so weddings I attended were like this. Two of them were civil partnerships.
Had a civil partnership and not only was there no God-speak, we couldn't if we wanted to as it is _not allowed_. No religious hymns, prayers, poems.
Humanist and religious weddings are not the only two options. Civil weddings are the traditional secular alternative to religious weddings, where a registrar legally marries you. Humanist weddings are still sort of ideological because generally celebrants have to have a belief in humanism in order to become one. There are a lot more of them than registrars though so it's easier to get married by one. In some countries/US states anyone can legally marry someone with a short online course, which IMO would be the ideal situation.
And just like Halloween the holy water wards off vampires so it’s useful for babies who are snack sized.
I always felt they were like introductions of the baby to the extended family, I suppose now they're more a hedge for getting in more religious and potentially better performing schools
The schools have become wise to this, our local church school insists you regularly attend church and you need "proof" that you attend. Without the proof you go to the bottom of the list unless you hit other criteria (eg looked after children, siblings etc)
this has been the way for at least 20 years and i'd wager longer. very normal for faith schools to require proof, i'd extremely be surprised to learn that they ever didn't.
Yeah I started Catholic secondary in '98 and needed my baptismal stuff from Scotland *and* letters from ministers etc. saying I was a life-long weekly attendee at the Methodist chapel down here. Pain in the arse (and they were definitely using other criteria, I don't remember any of the other non-catholics being streamed into the bottom sets) but it's a good education.
Never underestimate pushy parents - my colleague & his wife were non-religious, but they attended church every Sunday without fail for like 1-2 years before their kid went to school to make sure their kids got in. Kept up their attendance for 2 more years until the younger one got in, then never went back.
I never understood why schools that are state funded are allowed to be religious. surely if it is funded by the state, it should be secular and the only selection criteria should be proximity and ability (assuming it isn't a comprehensive)
A school, any school, gets a set amount of money per child per year to provide education - it's about 7.5k without pupil premium iirc. It's only classed as a "state" school if it's under direct control of the local education authority and therefore the rest of the money is also coming from the state because it costs far more than 1-1.5mil to educate 200 kids a year at primary level. Faith schools make up the short fall from the church/synagogue/mosque they're attached to.
I don't disagree with you, but the reason is because the head of the state is also the head of the church. We are legally not a secular nation, even if we sometimes operate as one in practice. I would be surprised if there wasn't some kind of reform over the next 20 years, but it is nobody's priority.
One of the reasons is that most free schools used to be organised by churches. Not necessarily the state church, though the CofE was a major player via parishes. So many of the schools are funded because they were there before the state organised schools directly. It’s similar to the way that Attree’s government didn’t nationalise hospitals and doctors’ practices to fund the NHS.
Yeah one of my colleagues has a son just starting a Catholic secondary school, he needed to be confirmed but they're totally none religious
One of my colleague has been taking his kids to church every Sunday for nearly a year and collecting “stamps” as proof for application to the associated catholic school. It’s so stupid
Fair enough in a way if it's one where the faith community is paying the capital costs - almost find it weirder to pretend to believe in church for a year to get them into a school whose ethos they don't agree with/think is stupid.
As a born and raised Catholic "pretend to believe and then get all its benefits basically for free" it's basically what Catholicism is 🤣
if there’s no other decent schools in the area then i can understand why
Yeah I don’t think it’s stupid that he’s doing it. He’s trying to get the best for his kids. I think it’s stupid that it’s necessary
When my daughter was at the local CofE school we were regular... Christmas Family Service *every* year without fail
When my mum and dad wanted to send my older sister to the local Roman Catholic school back in the 90s, my mum took the hit and had to take me and my sisters to church every Sunday to ensure we would all get in. Prior to that, we were christened as well for the same reason.
And these are state funded schools- we ALL pay for them in our taxes but they’re allowed to discriminate on faith, it’s outrageous.
They get extra funding from the church (which is usually how they end up better performing, but that's a rant for another day).
They usually end up better performing because families with the wherewithal to get to church regularly enough to 'fake' their way in, or just families that are a regularly a part of a church anyway tend to be more ordered and that lends itself to doing well in a classroom setting. Can see it at my kids school. 50% of intake is church places, the other 50% is local catchment area and the difference in behaviour is noticeable Edit: typo
It's not necessarily even families that attend Church, it's parents who are both willing and able to do all the things that get points for years, even if they're just paying lip service, because the Church school is the most sought-after in the neighbourhood due to its perceived excellence. Those are the same parents who'll provide a really good home environment and role models for academic achievement. My parents not only took us all to Church for a decade but both used to volunteer their time to help. We all quit attending Church after my youngest sibling got in to the good school. Oh and it turned out that the school is a hotbed of under-achievement and when they finally got an OFSTED inspection again after *many* years of being allowed to keep an Outstanding rating without being inspected, they were rated Requires Improvement. It's just that they select for dedicated (and to some extent well off) parents so they have a cohort of extremely high-achieving kids.
You don’t need money to get to a church. They are usually in walking distance, and most that I know have substantial numbers of working class people. Or are you referring to having to work on a Sunday morning? There are other services at many churches. It’s not a matter of “having the wherewithal”.
That is a fair point!
School places is a big one. I know a lot of kids who only got christened to get into the best school in the area. My eldest went to a well-performing faith school because it was the only school that happened to have a place midway through the year when we moved to the area. Since he was leaving when my second son would be starting school, we couldn't get a sibling place so the only way to get my second son into the school would be attending church and getting him Christened. I had SO many parents offering to coach me on the process to ensure we got a place, it was ridiculous. We just went with a different school.
Always puzzled me too, my siblings and I were all christened, and I think it's the only time my family stepped foot in a church, and they didn't keep the candles we were given or take photos, so really weird lol. Also I know loads of people who ask friends to be "godparents" to their children even though they don't get them christened... I mean if that's the case, then why not say honorary aunt/uncle instead of godparents? I can only guess it's just the "done thing"
God parents are supposed to raise you, in the event your parents die. They are supposed to swear to help encourage your faith throughout your life and instruct you on morals, etc. They're supposed to be your parents bffs, or the people they trust you with most, outside of family. At least one of these things ended up being untrue even when it was taken seriously. So now it's mostly a token gesture of friendship.
Christening was a token gesture, even in the 60s. My Godparent (mum's brother) turned up for my mum's funeral and that is all I ever saw of him.
Yeah the term is so loosely used now , when I was little, those people would be known as "aunt/uncle" if non religious and Godparents were selected for christenings, but I guess meanings change with times and trends. I've always been baffled as to why I was christened with a non religious family, but again, probably just what people did.
I'm a 'guide parent' to my best friend's daughter, whose aunt took the role of godmother at her christening. Because it's not just a party - the whole point of the ceremony is standing in front of a group of people in a church and formally promising to ensure the child is brought up in the Christian faith. And I'm an atheist Jew. So I'm essentially her godmother in all but name.
And that was really important hundreds of years ago because many mothers died after giving birth. That's why christenings often happened on the day of the birth. Today, just a day out for the family.
I am a “godparent” to a child of friends of ours. The service was a humanist naming ceremony and the name used for our role was “accompanying adult”. But really, who’s going to use that term at any time other than during the service? I’m not a godparent, because her parents specifically chose not to have a religious ceremony, but what other word is there? What word is there for her relationship to me other than goddaughter?
I'm a humanist naming celebrant and the term most people choose is 'guideparent' - although I have also seen 'guardian', 'odparent' and even 'fairy odmother' !
I have Guardianship to my sister's kids - meaning that legally, they'd move into my care if both parents were trampled by a rhinoceros or similar. I certainly haven't made any pledge to raise them in any belief system. Is that the secular equivilant? I don't think that Godparent has any legal status - a bit like how Marriage is only recognised by the state once the register is signed, regardless of ceremony or if you're married in the eyes of your faith? I've seen Godparenting done as a tit-for-tat exchange among couples and a way of getting an extra uncle/aunt type figure. Even ones where one half of a couple has been asked to be Godfather and someone else unconnected to that person has been asked to be Godmother - which doesn't seem consistent with 'will raise these children in the event of their parent's death.' Maybe it's more in the 'will encourage our moral/faith based standards' and give them a nice gift on birthdays and do some extra babysitting style now?
One of my family friends became a godparent and was told one of their duties was to buy a nice bottle of champagne each year for the child's birthday so they would have it in reserves for their 18th birthday party haha so that's what they've been doing each year. Definitely think expectations have been more relaxed now for godparents
That's cute. I'd heard the 'Buy a bottle of whiskey from their birth year so it will age into something valuable/drinkable by their 18th/21st/whatever.' More relaxed? Demigodparents? Buy a can of lager every year so they have enough to get hammered on on their 16th?
Backup parent?
But imagine saying at work “I’m backup parent to a little girl and I need to buy her a birthday present” People would wonder what you’d been drinking. It’s so much easier and widely understood to say “I’m buying a birthday present for my goddaughter” even though it’s not factually correct. She’s 17 now and she’s always referred to us as her godparents. Everyone just sort of knows what that means.
I'm guide parent, or godless mother!
I'm a 'Godlessparent' to two friends babies! They didn't want to touch religion with a 10 foot pole but still wanted the welcome and community for their kids. One of them literally gave me a card that said 'will you be friends with my kid?' 😅
Haha that's sweet and amusing, I like it!
I'm a godparent even though I'm non baptised atheist. It was even a Catholic service😂
I guess they'd just hope you don't "corrupt" them tooooo much lol 😂 if I was ever asked, I'd probably just say I'd be more comfortable being an Auntie, haha
Is it even that common?
I’ve been to 1 in the last 10 years and I’ve lost count of how many babies there’s been, so It’s not common in my world.
I’ve only ever been to 3 christenings in my whole life and I’m nearly 40 and one of them was my own when I was a baby. I went to one which was basically just a piss up and then my sister has her kid christened catholic as she married a catholic man and it was important to his family who were very churchy. There was only 6 of us who went as they really just did it cause her MIL really believed the baby might end up in hell if they didn’t then we went for a scone and a cup of tea. My kids aren’t christened. Seems like a waste of time and money.
Everyone I know has baptised their children, and only about 20% of them actually go to mass, people just do it as culture/tradition at this point
And nobody I know has. We tend to be around people like us, which makes it really hard to judge how prevalent something truly is.
I wish everyone could understand that.
I think if 20% of people you know go to mass then you're surrounded by people for whom religion is a much bigger deal culturally. I don't know anyone who goes to any denomination of church except maybe midnight mass at Christmas. We're at the phase in our lives where we're at multiple weddings a year and only two out of 15+ have been in churches.
Yea I’m from Northern Ireland, it’s basically cultural here, not really religious, although there still are some religious people, usually older though, im 25 and very little people my age go to mass, go to the 60+ age group though and it gets more common
Ah yeah that'll be it!
I think Protestants here are actually more likely to be very religious than Catholics, but the non religious but culturally Catholic/Protestant is probs most common thing
That was my thought. I'm not christened, my kids aren't christened, I've been to lots of friends' weddings but the only christenings I've been to were for friends who were religious.
It’s an excuse for a piss up and there are often presents
You can do that without a church.
I wish more people did ‘naming days’ or similar, I get the urge to celebrate a new baby but god I hate sitting in churches listening to tiny innocent children being referred to as sinners and the whole ‘Christ claims you’ that sounds vaguely threatening
What churches do you go to? Genuine question. That sounds shit
CofE mostly, do you understand the Christian concept of original sin? They literally believe we are born bad
I’ve just never heard these types of sermons in any CofE I’ve ever been in so thought maybe it was another denomination. I’ve always been taught that the original sin means a relationship removed from god. The baptism brings the child into the family of the church and then that original sin is removed. That was a CofE that taught me that but understand it varies from place to place. I don’t personally believe babies are born with sin. I’ve never heard babies called sinners during any services I’ve ever attended. The focus has always been welcoming them to the church, not the removal of any sun.
Maybe you should look into it more closely, your interpretation is nicer but isn’t what the church actually says
Article 9 of the Church of England talks of original sin meaning the nature of a person has a propensity towards sin. It doesn't mean a baby has literally sinned. The liturgy for baptism in C of E has many references to God saving sinners, though where this occurs it's talking about the ongoing relationship between God and church community that the baby is joining. I'm unaware of any point in the actual C of E liturgy that a baby is called a sinner in the sense they've done something wrong. Happy to be corrected.
Hell no let’s not have any more baby days at all 😂 it’s lovely when friends/family have kids but can’t be doing with gender reveals, baby showers, christenings, naming days for every sprog that pops out.
I'm with you on baby showers and gender reveals, they should be illegal! One party to celebrate a safely arrived actually existing new baby that isn't a shameless present grab or just attention seeking is ok though I think.
Agreed! If you want a baby shower, have a baby shower - if you want a christening, have a christening. You get one party, I’ll buy a present and make a big fuss of you, and then that’s your lot from me lmao. (Not wanting to sound miserable - I am truly happy for my friends and loveeee holding and getting to know their babies - but it doesn’t need a big song and dance multiple times over).
Sorry no, don't have a baby shower, never have a baby shower! If you want a party wait till the kid is safely arrived and have one then. And buy your own baby stuff please!
Lol even more savage than I am 🤣 but yes would greatly prefer the party once baby is here so I can at least enjoy looking at the cute bundle!
I'm pregnant right now and agree with this completely. Celebration _after_ baby arrives. We're thinking of doing a 100 days party- it's common in lots of East Asia, where my husband is from. You celebrate the baby getting to 100 days old, and by that time you're a little more recovered from the birth so might actually enjoy seeing relatives.
Because it is a cultural practice that is common amongst members of the community. Just like how people still generally have weddings even though all they need to do is get a document signed with a legal official. And people still have funerals even though the deceased doesn't care what happens to them anymore. It is just a normal part of the culture and it is something people are accustomed to doing.
Yeah it’s a life milestone and I see it as a celebration to have all friends and family together to celebrate the new baby. I love the naming ceremony etc for people who don’t want to involve the church I do attend church occasionally though, like once a month. Out families aren’t religious but they wouldn’t attend a naming ceremony cause they’re stuck in their ways and don’t value anything the younger generations try to do.
I'm leaning towards the excuse for a party. I've never been christened/baptised although my husband was. We are both atheist so our kids were never subject to religious ceremonies either. We had a massive party for their first birthdays though. They were too young to remember how good it was so no expectations for the next lot of parties but a lovely event for all the family from far away to say hello. Religious stuff has lots of awesome history that is understood by most. A day off to attend your family members christening has a greater importance socially than attending a kids first birthday etc. Schools are often a huge incentive too. The religious schools near me are often top rated for exam scores and regularly match the grammar school scores.
I was christened in the early 70’s, by a family that had been atheists for at least the past three generations. Basically it was all a bit ‘Pascal’s wager’, in that if I died, and there was a god, they didn’t want me going to purgatory or something. If god doesn’t exist at least I got a free face wash out of it. As my mum nears the end of her life, she is still vehemently atheist, but still says that if there is a god then she’ll spit in his face when she dies 😂 She also thinks that there is ‘something’ after you die, as she believes in ghosts (because she thinks she saw one first), so her spiritual philosophy is a bit mixed and vaguely inconsistent… But yeah, Pascal’s wager, even if she wouldn’t verbalise it like that.
You’d have to ask yourself, if there is a god and he’d happily punish an innocent child because their parents didn’t do a daft ritual with ‘magic’ water, is that the kind of loving god you’d want allegiance with? A lot of god stories make him sound more villain than hero.
Woah woah woah! Now you're getting into theology here .. religious people don't like theology (the irony!)
That’s interesting. My mum wasn’t christened as her mum lost her faith (this is in the fifties) then I wasn’t so I didn’t christen mine (in the 2000’s) so on the female side our kids are third generation atheists. I would be very surprised if my grandkids end up being christened (but I don’t rule it out).
My mum has this same view and would like me to get my daughter christened. Bizzarely she holds this "Pascal's wager" even though she was brought up C of E. The whole purgatory unless baptised is a Catholic thing not a CofE one. Pretty genius invention from the Catholic church to be fair. Still holds some sway now even with people of different churches! Irrespective of eternal purgatory, I am not planning on getting my daughter christened as me and my wife are atheists.
I only know people who are at least mildly religious who have had a christening. I think some people have ‘naming day’ parties just to have a celebration in its place but I don’t know anyone personally who has done that so I’m not sure just how common they are. My husband and I are atheist so there’s no way I’d have had a christening. That would feel awkward at best.
Yeah I can’t help thinking it’s hugely hypocritical to have a church christening and absolutely no interest in going to church. The whole theme is about raising the infant in the faith and helping them turn away from devilish influence etc. nothing secular about it at all. I think atheist christmasses work because midwinter festivals pre-date Christianity by thousands of years, so when you hear folk talk about ‘the real meaning of Christmas’ it amuses me. It had nothing to do with wise men, virgins magically becoming pregnant 🤨babies in stables, and everything to do with brightening the dark days with food, drink and good company.
>The whole theme is about raising the infant in the faith and helping them turn away from devilish influence etc. nothing secular about it at all I don’t think you have to believe in God to take some meaning from that and want to apply it to your child. Our culture is inseparably linked with Christianity and even though I may not be religious, I share many of the values and sentiments purely by nature of being raised in the U.K.
Exactly. And a none religious Christmas can happen at home without taking up time in a church, listening to prayers and blessings that you don’t believe in, making promises to raise your child in a faith you have no intention of raising them in, etc. For a Christening, I’d feel like I was being disrespectful to both my own convictions and to the beliefs of those whose space I was taking up.
Same. Cant think of one of my friends who had their baby Christened. Although apparently my big sister christened me at the bottom of the garden when I was a baby as a nun told her that anyone unchristened would go to hell. (Charming thing to say to an 8 year old)
My sister chose a naming ceremony over a christening as they were very secular. I don't think christenings should be automatic as there is another option, and too many people make promises to raise the child in the church that they have no intention of keeping.
I've been to a few of those and apart from the church bit they're pretty much the same, a chance for a piss up and get together. There's even the god parent thing at well, although I was officially classed as a guardian I'm called the fairy godfather which is a fun role to embrace
Same - but guide parent (or godless mother!)
Ah I went to one of those! With a Guidemother and Guidefather. It was nice, much better than being in a church.
Yes, it’s a weird way to start a child’s life- make a load of promises you do not intend to fulfill
I think if you aren't genuinely religious it is self indulgent and cheapens religion. It makes me feel lesser of people who do it. Also how do you know your baby will grow up wanting to be Christian? You should wait until they are old enough to decide for themselves.
Religion is pretty cheap already to be fair
When we had our baby my mum was very keen to have the rellies get together and welcome the new arrival. I wouldn’t have objected to a christening but my husband is pretty fiercely atheist. It did make sense to have a family event to mark the occasion. I suggested a “100 days” ceremony as a compromise, it’s something the Koreans do. We basically had some cake in a hotel one afternoon but it did the job. We’re not religious so we had to do some cultural appropriation to get an event that made sense to us when an event was needed.
We're thinking of doing a 100 days party too! Husband is Japanese. His sister did a 100 days photoshoot for her baby, where the family got together and dressed up nicely.
As someone involved in Christian ministry in the Church of England, I am indeed often perplexed why people who don’t care anything about Jesus or the church bring their children to be baptised. Especially since in the ceremony itself it says that the child is to be baptised into the faith that the parents and godparents presumably hold. I mean, of course I’d welcome any and all interest that people express! But to go through that simply for the sake that it’s the ‘done thing’ seems like a massive waste of time at best and at worst… slightly disingenuous??
I also felt its disingenuous but from reading the comments - they dissociate the religion and just see it as a day out
Yeah, that’s interesting to me. Why not just have a day out instead? Haha
Yeah 100% and it really is hard to ask people who choose to do it yet have no intention of bringing their children up going to church or whatever why they do it without them getting offended. Really don’t get the logic and I honestly just think it’s fishing for gifts in those cases.
Probably for the same reason so many people will answer “church of England” when asked what their religion is. Despite the fact they’ve never been to church, never read the bible and don’t even believe in god. It’s tradition, or the “proper” thing to do. Or they feel it makes them appear to be a better person. I think it’s a dying trend though. Fewer and fewer young parents are doing this.
Some schools require it. My friends got their son christened because they wanted him to attend a certain primary school as it is much closer to their house than others. It also performs better than others. I haven't had my daughter christened and before I applied for primary school place's I looked round the local schools, I was told that there wasn't much chance of a non Christened child getting a place at that particular school. My friends kid didn't get a place as they don't regularly attend church.
Because there is a piss up afterward. This is the rationale behind most British events. Work? Well we can go for a pint after. Football? We can go for a pint before and after. Wedding? Good excuse for a piss up. Holiday? Will there be cheap booze? Weekly shopping trip? That’s where they sell booze. Gym? Burn some calories so you can consume some booze. I could go on.
Most dont
Your hunch is correct. It's an excuse for a family day out and photos. It is also nice to formalise 'godparent' roles as that provides further excuses in future years to get together with friends. (Godparents coming over for kid's birthday and such).
Most Athiests these days in the UK either dont bother, or have a secular baby naming ceremony. It's a cultural event and a time parents formally introduce the baby to wider family, friends and community. Source: Me. Humanist Celebrant.
Just for a piss up/attention, I've been to 2 christenings in the last 3 years, all the parents were chavs and hardly lived a fruitful good Christian life. Personally I will never have my child christened, that's a choice and if they want to join a religion that can be their choice.
It’s just cultural. A staunch atheist who has questioned religion prob wouldn’t do one (I didn’t for my kid, just as our wedding had absolutely zero references to religion), but someone who is culturally Christian and doesn’t really care or have feelings on it either way will probably do it because they had one and their family expect it. Plus it functions as a ‘get the family together and meet the baby!’ event. You can have one of those in a non-religious way but christenings are easier and more understood. Religion and culture overlap in a big way, look how many of us celebrate Christmas and eat Easter eggs despite not being religious.
I didn’t have any of mine christened. My mother suggested it to me once as it was an excuse for a party but I didn’t bother.
Is it that common? When we did antenatal classes, we kept in touch with the other parents, and out of five babies, only one was christened. (And that couple was super duper Christian.) I think that's the only christening I've ever been invited to in my life. I realize that's a small sample.
Excuse for a shin dig. I’ve been to quite a few, the chap is up there talking about God and whatnot but he knows he’ll never see these people again.
A number of people I know think you have to get the baby christened for the name to be legal. I've not really got the heart to tell them they're wrong.
I used to attend an Anglican Church, and it was always obvious when we had christenings. There would be a big group of people we’d never seen before (or indeed see again) all dressed up very fancy. They’d have a “proper” christening with all the liturgy and getting baby wet… including promising to raise the child in the Christian faith, and that they themselves were Christian. Families actually from the church would opt for a thanksgiving or blessing instead.
I’m getting my 7 month old christened this week, despite neither of us being religious and the main reasons are - To have a party to welcome him into the world, getting all of our family and friends together. Will get him into the primary school we want him to go to. My mother in law and other family members are religious so will be nice for them. She takes him to church with her a bit already and I’ve got no problem with him continuing to go as he gets older if he wants to, as the teachings will help him to be a nice person. There’s a Chinese buffet guy that I’ve been waiting for an excuse to use for a party.
You got me on that last line
My wife wants to do it for ours. I'm not particularly interested. When I brought up the subject she cried at the idea of not doing it. So, to extrapolate from my wife, I guess plenty of people still find meaning in it? She believes in principle but in the decade since I've known her she's only gone to church for a couple of Christmas days and she had immediately family in the priesthood, so the institution probably still has influence on her beyond the week-to-week
The last christening I went to was explicitly to make sure the kids got into ‘the good school’. It actually kind of annoyed me as I wouldn’t have bothered going if they had told me beforehand rather than drunkenly laughing about it at the party.
I think so it's a way for people to meet up and get to see the new baby
I think this is maybe an English thing. I’m Scottish and was very surprised when I found out my atheist English friend, from atheist English parents, was christened. Only christenings I’ve heard of here are around Glasgow (a more religious area) to catholic parents.
Just an excuse for a party.
Any excuse for a pissup.
Dude, if you think the UK is bad, you should see Ireland - big full day blow-out shindig. The child won't see the inside of a church again until Communion (rinse repeat the party) and then Confirmation a few years later. Gotta keep the indoctrination train running, toot toot
Attention
We love an excuse for a little party
You get loads of loot. At any Christening I've been to all the presents get sold almost immediately to raise funds for the child's necessities. It's a bit cheeky but the way people see it is they wouldn't normally come into hundreds or thousands of pounds worth of presents & they would rather host an event to get that money than just do the rounds asking to borrow money which you then need to pay back.
England has had a rocky religious history, and due to Protestantism having been so ingrained in culture at one point, Baptisms have moved from religious to cultural events in many ways. Sure there’s definitely a “social media pic” aspect to it, but it is undeniable apart of the “random British habits” that make up the cultures within the UK.
We didn’t our children are godless heathens.
It's a way of introducing your whole family to the new baby and also an excuse for a little teaparty or smth afterwards. Tah-dah, here's the new baby and btw the name is ____, now let's go back to the house for cake and sandwiches. My theory is that it's a combination of 'it's tradition' and less American than having a baby shower. I was christened and my parents are aetheist, I think my dad's parents are religious though, so it was possibly also an 'appease the in-laws' situation.
I think it’s a Catholic thing. Lapsed Catholics tend to christen their children, they find it hard to completely break away. Lapsed Protestants don’t tend to have the same family pressure / guilt trip, therefore don’t usually bother. Some people just want to dress their poor baby in a nylon frilly nightmare of a frock to show off to family, and on social media. And some people now just hold a ‘meet the baby’ celebration. Far more civilised.
If my nephew's christening is anything to go by, it was definitely not free. I think it's new parents worrying they're not doing the right thing, so going through the steps they see other parents doing, so even if they aren't really religious, just vaguely christian, they'll see it as an opportunity to do a good-parent thing. "what do we do with this new baby?" "christen it? take it to a sea life centre?" And it's also nice for the older family members to dote over a tiny child. As well, making your friend, or close family friend a god parent is like a mini honours list from the parents.
I'm church of England, got christened. Asked my mum why when I was about 8, when my little sister was born and preparing for a christening. Her reply? "I don't really believe in the whole Christianity thing, but just in case there are pearly gates on the other side, you're guaranteed entry." Not sure it works like that, but there's that. My partner is also christened C of E, his older sister and middle sister are, but his younger brother and younger sister aren't - that was more of an effort situation. Edit; grammar.
According to christian religion several things are simultaneously true: 1) God is all loving and all-forgiving of even the worst sins if you truly repent in your heart 2) you can't fuck women unless you pay the vicar £400 to perform a 'right to fuck' ceremony and wrap part of one of their limbs in a non-reactive strip of dense metal. 3) not being christened is an absolutely utterly unforgiveable sin, and the baby 100% will burn screaming hell for all eternity even if it commited not a single sin. So give the vicar some cash, he'll throw the baby in a stone pot filled with tapwater he's cast magic spells on (its a combo of Dispel Evil and a forceshield that prevents Atheism and/or "the gays"), and the baby will then get into heaven!
I mean it cant hurt, can it? Might as well hedge your bets!
To acquire Godparents - who should be non-relatives who then have an additional duty of care/assistance towards their Godchildren - plus gifting them presents on Birthdays etc.
Humans like rituals, and patterns. It helps to solidify community and encourage bonding which are useful social tools to keep the community cohesive and ultimately safe.
I'm in the "not really a believer by why tempt fate?" camp. And it's a nice excuse for a party and to celebrate your child.
Tradition
My wife wasn't christened, and when the time came, we didn't have our daughter christened. My wife would identify as agnostic and I'm anti-theist atheist. I don't recall any expectation of having our daughter christened or pressure to do so. I appreciate that this is anecdote rather than data 😁 If there are non believer parents having their children baptised, could it be the to with getting into a C of E school?
I'm 48 and the last time I went to a christening was 48 years ago. None of my kids or my friends kids have been christened.
The only people I know who had their kids christened are Christian, even if they aren't regular church goers. I wasn't christened, neither were my kids.
Excuse for a piss up
Any excuse for a piss up to take photos at.
Presents and a party....
We love a good christening, gets the family together, gives us access to schools and wedding venues... buffets, food, party, dash of Jesus for a cameo. Why wouldn't we have a christening?
A lot of people round here get their children baptised/christened (and then go to church for a bit) so they can get them into the "good" Catholic or CofE primary school.
I think a lot of it is/was pressure from older family members - get Johnny/Sally baptised or grandma will never shut up about it. We never had any of ours baptised (all in their 30s now) and were lucky enough not to have any family pressures (or at least none made known to us - I suspect my mum wasn't happy, but said nothing). Continuing the family tradition none of our five grandchildren have been baptised either.
We got ours dipped because husband / his family are religious but also it’s easy to say kids will choose their own faith when they get older but if they aren’t christened then I felt that it might be harder for them to choose to follow Christianity if they aren’t already part of the church community.
They think of it the same as a wedding or funeral, just something you do and get everyone together in a pretty setting. It is dropping though, I have only ever been to two. They are awful, you have a whole church service going on first with drab hymns and god chat. The ceremony with water on their head is plain weird. You don't even get booze after.
Tradition, an excuse for a party, school admissions, pressure from family. I'm not christened and neither are my children, but you should've seen my MIL's face when I told her I had no intention of christening my children. She's lovely, I think it just hadn't occurred to her that it was optional. If they choose to do something along those lines when they're old enough to make and understand the promises themselves, that's fine by me. The secular alternative is a naming ceremony, I think.
Any excuse for a piss up.
My sisters in laws sister announced she was christening her youngest kid, so i said “oh i didn’t know you were religious!” … on a wind up basically bc i know she isn’t. She said “i’m NOT! i don’t believe in any of it”…. so why the fuck are you christening your kid then lmao. She just wanted a huge party and a piss up and for people to give her gifts and money and vouchers.
Good Excuse for getting a bit dressed up and going to a party after
Excuse to dressup, have cake and take photos. Same with young people who wear crosses. It's a fashion statement. And local catholic schools- filled with working class kids whose parents didn't want them to go to a comprehensive that is majority ethnic although that thinking is changing as we become more diverse and non Christian kids are going to affiliated schools more
It's an excuse for a party
In many cases these days I suspect couples do it to keep their parents or Grandparents happy, or for family tradition where they've been handed down a christening dress and feel the need to use it.
We did it because my wife believes there is some form of god but not entirely sure what it is so she isn’t a full on Christian. She felt it was the right thing to do though as she has some believe in a higher purpose.
We were offered a naming ceremony as an alternative, we didn't do anything though and did end up with some backlash, especially from older family members/once a random old lady on the street...
I'm not baptised, which seems to shock some people. Also, we had a secular wedding. Yet most of my family got married in church and had their kids baptised, despite never going to church! Why? Seems like utter hypocrisy to me.
I call it a 'Social Acceptance Ritual' but 'Introduction' is better. I'm going to one in a few weeks but I've said I'll only come to the event afterwards. It's more tragic when people go to a church a few times so they can get married there, before never setting foot again.
It's a tradition.
God, I truly have no idea. My cousin had a church wedding and a christening for both her kids - before the church wedding had to start going to church in order to have the banns read - and I have no idea why she bothered. I mean I guess it’s hypocritical of me, because I celebrate Christmas and Easter, but I’ve never understood it.
Tradition, mostly.
A lot of parents do it to keep one or more of their parents happy, or even just to keep the local vicar happy. Hedging their bets, no harm in it, why not? I've only been to a couple church christenings (and a few after-parties), but several naming ceremonies and a few 'baby-warmings' - like a housewarming party. One of the christenings had mildly-believing parents but devout grandparents, the other was quite blatant that the relatives wouldn't have turned up without the church bit and wouldn't have given them as many presents...
Tradition. For close to 1000 years Christianity has been a thing in this country (in other smaller numbers for closer to 2000). Why not keep a tradition going?
Probably a mix of tradition and family pressure.
It isn’t free, or at least it wasn’t for either of my two children. I’m Italian, born in Manchester, and everyone in my family is baptised Catholic so I just did it for mine so they’d be treated the same as the rest of the family. It’s nice. If you believe, then you’re free of original sin and become one of ‘God’s children’. If you don’t believe, then it’s just a bit of water on their head and a few presents. Nice to keep the elders happy and the tradition alive.
We had our daughter christened in the church where we were married when she was 2. Neither my wife or I are Christian but both view the church as part of the community and also the wider history of the country. It was nice to be able to invite friends and family for an event that was positive, as all to often it's only Weddings, Funerals and Christenings that extended families get together. It was doubly nice having had our daughter in 2020 so a lot of folk hadn't seen in each other for the previous couple of years.
I think a lot of parents do it so that their child can get married in a church if they want to
My partner was baptised so that he could go to a better primary school.
Probably to make grandparents happy? I think my mother-in-law would have liked it if my daughter was christened and if my own parents had the same feeling it might be harder to not. She wants to get my daughter a silver bracelet? I didn't even know that was a thing. I wasn't christened and haven't ever attended a christening so I don't know anything about it.
My mum told me the other day that she had a sudden deep, dark, irrational thought of "what if hell's real?" and started spiralling so they decided to christen me so I wouldn't go to hell (mostly for peace of mind) and then that same day booked the church for their wedding
Schools. Some schools in England you can only get into if you’ve been christened. We had a naming ceremony for our son as I (atheist) feel very strongly he should choose his own religion as and when he is old enough to do so. But it would have made it unlikely he’d have got a place at the local oversubscribed CofE school had we stayed living in England. As it was we moved to Scotland before he started school so it wasn’t an issue.
Photo op. Excuse for a party.
I don't have kids so I may have misunderstood this but I think that some people I know that are non-religious and have christened their children did it to make them eligible to attend the local school.
One of my friends had 'Naming Days' for her kids as an alternative to a Christening.