Pays are correcting themselves. During covid I negotiated a pay rise to keep up with the market, this year I’m keeping my mouth shut and being happy with cpi
Right right. Keep looking there’s gotta be one for you out there. Might just be timing. But business is tough all around at the moment for my industry.
Yeah, I've been looking properly for 2-3 weeks. Need to find something within the next couple of months. Just feels like jobs are paying less, there's less actual desirable jobs around (and the desirable ones are impossible to get a foot in the door) and the only ones I am getting calls back about don't excite me at all - neither does the pay.
Guess it makes sense that I'm having a tough go sending cold applications. I think I've gotten most of my past jobs through referrals, but I just haven't kept up with that network as I've been doing my own thing for a little while now.
Not to be bleak, but I think in this market you should be thinking months not weeks to land a senior role.
I have somewhat comparable experience (more tech than marketing) going from similar salary to consulting and now looking for something more stable as contracting is dismal right now.
In 20ish years I’ve never spent more than 2-3 weeks looking for a role, and usually had short freelance work to cover that gap. 2-3 weeks in this market is unfortunately nothing.
I’ve been looking for around a year, 20ish applications per week nationally, so 400+ roles. Only 1-3 in 20 applications is even opened as far as I can tell, most of those lead to an interview so 1-3 a week.
Feedback consistently, and definitely not alone in this, is being told I’m overqualified for less senior roles, while they’ve got the pick of the litter for senior roles for whatever highly specific combo of esoteric skills and experiences recruitment dreams up. A lot of people I know are in the same spot.
This sounds similar to my experience on all points really. Couple of jobs ago I spent a couple of months looking for a job, but that was because I wanted to get into product management and see what that was all about. Every marketing job has either come my way relatively easily whilst already employed, or within a couple of weeks of finishing up a gig. Same sort of numbers in terms of people getting back to me too, but none are at the level I’m interested in, they’re all a level below and a pay band below. I’ll keep applying away, might have to settle for a more junior job at lower pay. Fortunate enough in the sense I’m not completely hands down on tools, as the market is currently looking for this. As someone else said, some pay is better than no pay.
Haha this made me laugh. When a client complained his calls had dropped off this year I asked him to bring in his books. He was down a $100k or so in the first quarter.
However I’d been consistently been making him 1.2-1.5 mil for past few years. Not bad for a 1.2% investment. I increased his rate and am going to do it again.
Look at enterprise jobs in house but they’re not advertising, you’re going to have to go LinkedIn option
I don't mind the work itself, but don't love the 'rest' of it. Looking for new business, chasing up invoices, not really getting ingrained in client businesses, clients dropping you randomly to take things in house, etc.
Had a couple of kids now too. So some of the less appealing things of internal, like lack of variety and slower pace actually sound pretty good now lol
Yeah of course I meant more so that it's hidden information for most employees but not for those running ads, we see the investments and exact returns they make 🥲
That's normal, contracting usually has a 30% premium to cover the ups and downs and less career progression. You've dropped 20% (even less after tax), not a bad trade as long as you are looked after as a permie
Yep heaps more highly experienced people applying for roles that they are overqualified for.
Then the problem is that it’s those people with titles of “manager” and “head of” that haven’t been close enough to the tools for several years, as they’ve been busy managing teams, accounts and strategy …so often don’t get those lower level roles either.
>I'm in digital marketing
Oh, my sweet summer child.
Unless you're internal or in the top half of a big name agency you're in for a very rude shock - time's have changed so drastically.
Pickup as much technical as you can and baton down the hatches.
Marketing jobs are in a bit of a slump right now, after being high in demand around 2021. There’s a large candidate pool and many businesses are downsizing teams, not growing them.
I’m sure you are great, but I can’t imagine many opportunities opening up at 180 and being digital only. Maybe the big banks and other massive enterprise.
Interestingly I am seeing a trend in jobs being re-listed, so I wonder if the patchyness that’s been happened for near 12 months now is starting to level out.
Yeah, I'd reset my expectations to around $160k. Last few jobs I've applied for I've dropped that further to $145k. Let's see if I get any traction around that level.
Ai has taken most of the marketing jobs. There are ai now that can manage whole company social and marketing profiles and projects in a matter of seconds with the right prompts. Prompt Engineering jobs will be the next big thing.
Not a good time to be in marketing / digital marketing, which is most impacted by consumer spending. Cost of living is so high disposable income has been reduced by about 30%.
We’ve had the largest reduction in quality of living in the OECD in the last 2 years.
I’d just increase your hourly rate or charge out by 10% ish and maybe find an extra client or so and find a hobby to do in your down time ahha
Doubt going back to corporate will be anything great
I’m in a similar position to you, senior marketing generalist with same base. Been looking since Feb and have only had 1 interview. Seems like every role has over 100 applications. Salaries definitely seem to be down, very surprised at what I’m seeing some advertised at. Which is annoying because I was hoping to actually increase salary since mine hasn’t changed in 5 years, now looking like facing a decrease. Tech industry has been savage with layoffs so there’s lots of good marketing people around, but not a lot of desirable jobs. Not sure what the answer is.
far more than twice. if he's living hand to mouth currently, he has $0 discretionary spending. If he went 140k, he would suddenly have 70k discretionary spending!
Might be a US thing but I'm sure it's similar in Australia.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/qai/2022/11/23/white-collar-recession-2023why-the-highest-earners-may-fall-fastest/?sh=7520c63d18ce
Couldn't find any Australian articles with a quick Google search but "white collar recession" has quite a few articles.
I left my job in December thinking getting something paying the same after a few months off would be a cinch.
Wrong.
Very grateful to have found a position paying more after 5 months away from it all but am stressing about losing it a bit.
Last in first out, 6 months probation yada yada.
Work in digital marketing/integration and just moved into a role in Melbourne at 140k base, the jobs are around but not in the abundance they were before.
That said, this is a role at a mostly boring finance-adjacent company. The interesting roles at fun companies are paying peanuts comparatively.
What sort of integration projects do you work on? Zapier etc? Or do you also do python? Asking because I'm keen to move away from digital marketing/project management into integration/automation.
I've spoken to a few recruiters recently. They are getting 60+ applications a day for corporate roles. Salary offers are down by 30k. That was the feedback. Lots of roles are on-hold or being revoked.
Yes - I had had to almost half my rate for some projects. I think inflation is causing a cost-price squeeze for employers and the quickest and easiest way to address it is to push contractor rates downwards.
All technology consulting gigs are being killed. AI Apps now can do much of what what your field did. In US/Canada there is a huge recession in tech, as all jobs being replaced with more current skills consultants that will take half the salary.
This is what happens when you let immigration rip. You undermine the employee.
My engineering job is some 20% behind what it was advertised for 2 years ago at the same workplace
It's pretty wild. It feels like you need a $300k+ HH income to survive these days. People have been complaining about slow salary growth for years, this salary _decline_ is alarming.
According to the Commbank home loan calculator if you have a 300k income, and a 700k deposit (or equity), then you can afford an average house in Sydney ($1.6m)
Yes. This was actually going on for sometime, maybe a year. But interestingly the national averages are up! I think there are multiple things happening in the background. The high paying ones are being replaced by immigrants (with less pay). Also the proportion of immigrants ending up in jobs above national pay average is higher.
Justifying 300k spending is the reason why it costs so much.
If you moved outside cities, maybe you'd actually have a functional country instead of relying on sydneu
You may hate hearing it, but it is correct.
I own border regional property. I have looked at a lot of regional towns as that’s where a lot of construction was happening when I was last buying a few years back.
Your valuation is pretty accurate for mid range, $650,000 for a 4 bedder on 700m2 block. Around $600,000 if not well designed or maintained, around $700-$800 if larger and/or well designed and maintained.
I’d say 20% deposit as that’s actually achievable at that price range, and is a good move to make, but we’ll go with 10% just for the hell of it.
That leaves 585,000 loan on a $650,000 house. At roughly 6.15% interest rate, which seems to be reasonable given what people are reporting they’re paying, that’s ~$3500-$3600 per month. Almost half of your $6,000 a month figure.
You do not need private health, and if a lower income earner will not have to pay the extra levy either. But, for the hell of it, private health for a young couple: $260 a month.
Council Rates: $150 a month.
Throwing in details for a $650,000 border rural home into a home insurance calculator, $160 a month for home & contents insurance.
Grocery cost is highly dependent on where you buy. Around my border property, prices are the same as near my suburban property. Cheaper sometimes. I’m great at being able to save money while still eating very well, but total grocery cost all inclusive is $460 a month ATM for family of 2. I’ll bump it to $600 to be more representative of the average.
Add all that up, $4770 a month. For the hell of it, lets add more. $85 internet, $40 for two phone plans, per month. Monthly gas: $30. Water: $60. Electricity is harder, I’m on an average of ~$20 a month thanks to solar, after accounting for the loan to get the solar. Before solar, probably looking at closer to $90 a month so we’ll go with that. All up: $5,075 a month. Around $60K per year after tax.
The true killer is car and car insurance. Fuel is about $5000 a year due to travel distance, insurance around $1900 a year due on my old petrol sedan. So, $67,000 a year after tax.
Before tax, that’s around $88,000 for a single income family. Dual income you could scrape by at minimum wage easy.
Now, adding kids does add a lot more cost, and your career progression if you lived out there would be shit, but its a lot more affordable than you’ve made it out to be.
And the comparison is also pretty great; compare to a similar property 30km from the CBD. Around here that’s valued at around 1.4 million.
10% loan, you’re still owing 1.26 million. That’s $7,669 per month at the same interest rate. Just the home loan is already 50% higher than the total cost of border rural living. You can get something for around the $600,000 mark at that distance; my sister did. It was a two bedroom mini apartment on a split block, total size around 300m2. Half a driveway, no front yard, backyard smaller than border rural living room in the house, and half the house’s actual size.
Border rural living is a lot more affordable than suburban living. A LOT more affordable. If you do a bit of research as to where as well, you’re not going to be short on any essential amenities either - you just might not have a whole shopping complex with a cinema and consumer goods stores, nor nighttime entertainment and restaurants - but they’re usually 20-30 minutes away if you need them.
Job prospects? Shit. Would also limit your children’s higher education aspirations in the future if they didn’t want to pursue a trade, but for living? Probably the best value option ATM - which is its own problem as if people start living out there in droves, we have to spend a ton on infrastructure to support it, and they can’t get to CBD jobs so business growth is limited. We need higher density living near the CBD and transit corridors, and we’re moving that way, but its an ongoing fight and will take some time to achieve.
you clearly don't see foresight if you think I'm saying you (an Indvidual) should do this.
im saying the government has caused this by overdeveloping cities for so long.
Or, you know, the economy is finally starting to cool. Immigration has nothing to do with it in engineering, unless you’re in a very particular specialisation
Lol wtf you smoking.
Engineering is still going gang busters atm
Half the workforce of NSW is in south west Sydney atm and its basically blank checks for anyone with half a pulse!
Lol
No
Engineering pay has plateaued for 2 years.
Had a recruiter offer me a role for $140k at a higher level than I was currently in.
Politely declined and indicated you'd need to improve on my pay to actually get me to change. She said that's the market right now and that she thought it was a very competitive offer. Even went so far as to say I was in a very fortunate position and would never find pay at my current level again.
Said have a nice day.
That’s just typical recruiter shit. I get ones offering 40% less for the same or slightly higher responsibility roles and act like it’s the best offer imaginable all the time
What stream of engineering?
Civil/transport Infrastructure & construction still going nuts down here in Melb, whereas things like buildings, land development etc (ie reliant on private development) have dropped right off.
I changed jobs end of 2023 for a pretty hefty salary bump and slightly less responsibility.
Well, of course a recruiter would say that.
The easiest measure of how hot a market is is how many independent consultants/contractors there are. Right now, I'm batting away work.
Anyways, if you're civil, the infrastructure market is basically a name your price situation. Kids 5 yrs out are on $150k+.
Infrastructure engineering. With Sydney and Melbourne booming, and Brisbane desperate to get Olympics construction under way, and the renewable energy sector basically writing blank checks to anyone willing to relocate regional, it's nuts.
Are you talking about permanent or contracting?
Because the decade ago seems low for contracting, and the "these days" seems high for permanent ($150k high for 5 and $200k unrealistically high for 10, without other attributes).
It's not artificially expensive if it's relative to the cost of living
Right now cost of living is skyrocketing while incomes are going backwards
How good!
They definitely are. I feel like at least in professional spaces, the market has definitely turned from the seeker's benefit to the employers benefit. I have what I would consider to be an average base wage now for my position, but if I were to be seeking the same type of role in another business I'd be hired on at a lower base wage than I was a couple of years ago.
It'd be harder to get the job too, the pool of candidates has really blown out in a lot of business areas because there's more people looking for jobs, hoping to increase their wage in the move.
If I were considering looking for another job to increase my wage, but was also confident that my role wasn't going to suddenly disappear, I wouldn't be changing employers right now. The last one in is usually the first one out and I've heard rumours of employers (only rumours mind you) of probation periods being stretched from three months to six months in the last few months.
You might have to lower your expectations, at least in the interim while the job market has turned. Any income is better than no income.
They're around. I'm a performance manager on a figure over $130k base. Sydney.
Head of roles for $130k sound low balled, as if you're at a digital agency or something
I'm a software tester. Salaries have crashed in my profession since 2022, with particularly contract roles down 40%. More senior positions than mine are now paying the same or less than I am on. I have no choice but to sit tight right now.
My profile is open to recruiters and the public. With head of titles. Is there a way to use this feature to get consulting leads? Was thinking about that the other day
Good luck with the job search. My partner is looking and it's very competitive out there.
Can I ask what skills you think are the most valuable rorna digital marketer to have these days?
I'm marketing generalist with some skill in digital, but hoping to increase my earning potential.
Any advice much appreciated!
An understanding of marketing technology. How data works and how it can flow around an ecosystem. Those people are invaluable and very few truly understand it from a total systems POV.
Being the link person between technology and marketing is very valuable.
There is big variance in this space. Median seems around what you are saying but companies that get it (not always the big ones you think, scale ups can be a good space) will pay what is needed for good people.
Yeah I just spent 6 years in a startup with no increases (lots of equity though) which has now gone under and I’m owed a seriously large sum of money that I’m 9 months into waiting for from FEG, I don’t recommend. Currently CMO at a scale up now though
In my experience, yes. I work in a similar area and senior roles have been absolutely decimated in the last year and as a result hirers are holding the cards. The inevitable outcome is that wages are pushed down.
High cost of debt has reduced a lot of consumer and business expenditure.
High levels of inflation have put a lot of downward wage pressure on certain roles and industries (trades are protected though - it's still about politics not about genuine skill shortages).
There are a bunch of business articles that have just come out about the "white collar recession". Basically companies are cutting white collar roles and not hiring new runs, resulting un an average slump of hiring salaries (the average composed of organisations that pay less for various reasons).
I'm honestly just feeling like moving into SaaS sales and accumulating MRR clients again. I went from digital agency back into corporate and I'm sick of it (the people). The biggest issue I had in agency land was the churn and the inability of some clients to get their shit together to capitalise on the leads they were getting. Thinking that setting up businesses on HighLevel on a lower monthly fee is a good way to integrate your service into operational costs.
I work in IT and have noticed this as well. maybe because there are so many people who are now experienced in the digital space? and many companies can also find cheaper labour offshore to do the same thing?
Yep..Seems like pay rates have dropped for professionals.
Engineer here. My last financial year income was $212K. Now on $145+Super.
Seriously thinking of joining the CFMEU.
Anecdotally I've noticed for specialised management work we seem to be entering this space where younger gen people take the role for significantly less than market value because it's part of their hustle culture identity. A kind of American type influence where they don't care so much about the pay check as they do about the social status and title. Say you're looking for a Data Scientist instead of a Business Analyst and watch as a bunch of Masters students line up to beg for the peanuts you're offering.
Money paid is usually a function of value created. Think orgs are seeing they don’t really need any many consultants. They’ll just get some rando colllege kid to format some slides.
You have zero grasp of the type of work I do if you think I format slides, but that's beside the point. This thread is about getting an internal role, not about consulting.
Yes it is. Recruiters are starting to contact me to do BD, never heard a peep from them the last few years. Cold call emails with descriptions of candidates experience and then asking salaries are much lower than 6-8 months ago.
$180k jobs aren’t that many because businesses operate on a management pyramid, there are more supply of applicants than jobs offered. I was laid off from a $206k per year job in December, the closest I can find is a role paying $150k however the notice period is 3 month. Straight up rejected it
My advice would be to reinvent yourself as an “AI marketer”. It doesn’t matter if you don’t actually know anything about it because we all know marketing is a bunch of bullshit for the most part anyway, no offence, that’s just been my experience interacting with marketing types over the years. But I bet you could bullshit your way into impressing a hiring manager by spinning a few yarns about how AI is revolutionary for marketing and you are the one to lead them into the brave new world.
In the same spot. The market has really cooled and there’s a lot of applicants so the recruiters and the businesses know they can start bringing salaries down.
Trades are doing great. Engineering is good also, but a lot of the tech/dev stuff has more supply of skilled workers than demand at the moment.
Tech has reached a bit of a solution looking for a problem stage.
Look for a vertical to jump into, finance, rocketry, manufacturing, farming etc…
Agency work in particular has fallen off a cliff as many companies bring work in house.
Yes, professional workers taking a bit shafting atm. Pay is well down whilst cost of living is staggeringly high.
Australia is the land of the brain drain and I foresee in the next 10 years if things continue the way they are going, we will become a third world nation.
Just wait, even those workers are moving on!
Queue another few years of out of control immigration, no investment in essential infrastructure and higher taxes.
Remote work makes it even more interesting as people don’t from your economy but do not contribute the spending back
All those nations are much worse then us to begin with. We are just further down the line from them.
We will eventually be as bad as them, give it time.
Ok can you list top 3 pros of living china over Australia?
Cons I can think of are
Its authoritarian ie no political rights or freedom of expression
Horrible air pollution (cancer rates are sky rocketing there)
Not a great work-life balance (just like all of north east asia)
Pros
1. Much better public transport
2. Cheaper cost of living and higher purchasing power
3. Cheaper accommodation
4. Less crime
5. Much more modern infrastructure
Feel free to leave. Less competion for the rest of us and thus even better pay haha
But in reality, other than entrepreneurial professionals looking for venture capital, Australia is on balance well ahead of pretty much any other English speaking locations where Aussies can work.
Um let me explain there's a retail spending 0.4% drop in the figures of spending. So the spending pie got smaller
March alone there are 1131 companies that went into administration. So they closed shop....
And u do digital marketing? Yeah that seems like a culling and tight gig based on those numbers.
How can other companies afford to pay u more. In this environment? If things are buzzing sure.... but with those weak retail figures lol and we imported an extra 100,000 clowns and we still dropped 0.4% yeah lol
For the dumb people we are in recession if u take away the spending of immigrants to prop things up.
Even with their spending and 100000 extra clowns we still -0.4% if u can't figure that as a red flag for the economy I dunno what to tell ya and its in your sector...
I’d say your particular area is having some of the biggest cuts as consumers spend less and big recession risk looms.
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No. What’s the point of marketing if the market doesn’t want more services.
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Why do you think a big recession is looming? I have been hearing these same fears on ausfinance for years...
You are funny.
Is it the record low unemployment? The record high stock market? Wage growth? Lowering inflation?
Music has stopped. You may want a chair…..
Ha. No. https://www.imf.org/external/datamapper/NGDP_RPCH@WEO/OEMDC/ADVEC/WEOWORLD But you know... Keep hiding under the blankets. I'm doing fine.
Yes, particularly in professional spaces.
Sounds like your employment value is highly cyclical, you want to lock in high salaries at top of cycle and then stay put until next boom.
Or you could be the first one fired when things turn south.
Pretty much! Sound advise a year ago haha
2021 more like it! Peak monopoly money
Then you’re at higher layoff risk
Err, buy high sell low, is that it?
Pays are correcting themselves. During covid I negotiated a pay rise to keep up with the market, this year I’m keeping my mouth shut and being happy with cpi
I just nodded to my CPI adjusted raise this year. Happy to even just be employed.
The RBA thanks you for your service
When you say it worked out fine, are you saying you’re still making above that 180K?
It's not really comparable since I only work about 3 days a week, but my FYTD income is around $130k (excl GST).
Right right. Keep looking there’s gotta be one for you out there. Might just be timing. But business is tough all around at the moment for my industry.
Yeah, I've been looking properly for 2-3 weeks. Need to find something within the next couple of months. Just feels like jobs are paying less, there's less actual desirable jobs around (and the desirable ones are impossible to get a foot in the door) and the only ones I am getting calls back about don't excite me at all - neither does the pay. Guess it makes sense that I'm having a tough go sending cold applications. I think I've gotten most of my past jobs through referrals, but I just haven't kept up with that network as I've been doing my own thing for a little while now.
Not to be bleak, but I think in this market you should be thinking months not weeks to land a senior role. I have somewhat comparable experience (more tech than marketing) going from similar salary to consulting and now looking for something more stable as contracting is dismal right now. In 20ish years I’ve never spent more than 2-3 weeks looking for a role, and usually had short freelance work to cover that gap. 2-3 weeks in this market is unfortunately nothing. I’ve been looking for around a year, 20ish applications per week nationally, so 400+ roles. Only 1-3 in 20 applications is even opened as far as I can tell, most of those lead to an interview so 1-3 a week. Feedback consistently, and definitely not alone in this, is being told I’m overqualified for less senior roles, while they’ve got the pick of the litter for senior roles for whatever highly specific combo of esoteric skills and experiences recruitment dreams up. A lot of people I know are in the same spot.
This sounds similar to my experience on all points really. Couple of jobs ago I spent a couple of months looking for a job, but that was because I wanted to get into product management and see what that was all about. Every marketing job has either come my way relatively easily whilst already employed, or within a couple of weeks of finishing up a gig. Same sort of numbers in terms of people getting back to me too, but none are at the level I’m interested in, they’re all a level below and a pay band below. I’ll keep applying away, might have to settle for a more junior job at lower pay. Fortunate enough in the sense I’m not completely hands down on tools, as the market is currently looking for this. As someone else said, some pay is better than no pay.
;-; Marketing salaries are taking a massive plunge
Yeah it’s great. Amazing the amount of companies that want you to double their $30m business for $100k lol
Haha this made me laugh. When a client complained his calls had dropped off this year I asked him to bring in his books. He was down a $100k or so in the first quarter. However I’d been consistently been making him 1.2-1.5 mil for past few years. Not bad for a 1.2% investment. I increased his rate and am going to do it again. Look at enterprise jobs in house but they’re not advertising, you’re going to have to go LinkedIn option
It’s fkn sabris fault. People have unrealistic expectations
What a 🤡 he is
Are you unhappy doing consulting? I did the same thing and I can’t imagine going back to a boss lol 😂
I don't mind the work itself, but don't love the 'rest' of it. Looking for new business, chasing up invoices, not really getting ingrained in client businesses, clients dropping you randomly to take things in house, etc. Had a couple of kids now too. So some of the less appealing things of internal, like lack of variety and slower pace actually sound pretty good now lol
Can I message you
Username checks out
It's moderately depressing seeing how much profit they make and how much of the pie you get 🥲
Says every worker for that company
Yeah of course I meant more so that it's hidden information for most employees but not for those running ads, we see the investments and exact returns they make 🥲
And how disposable you are :)
And offshoring to 3rd world countries
I'm earning less than I was 10 years ago
I went from contracting to full time took a hit of $40k from over $220k a year to $180k package.
That's normal, contracting usually has a 30% premium to cover the ups and downs and less career progression. You've dropped 20% (even less after tax), not a bad trade as long as you are looked after as a permie
As in $220k was your contracting income?
Yeah it was
Why the move internal?
Contracting market has slummed hard in the past 12 months
Layoffs in a lot of large well-known white-collar focused businesses so we are seeing the impact of influx of talent willing to work at lower prices.
Yep heaps more highly experienced people applying for roles that they are overqualified for. Then the problem is that it’s those people with titles of “manager” and “head of” that haven’t been close enough to the tools for several years, as they’ve been busy managing teams, accounts and strategy …so often don’t get those lower level roles either.
Reddit says things are always booming. I was getting recruiters contact me 3-4 times a day. Now I get 3-4 a week and all advertising the same role.
Equally Reddit always says there's a recession coming..
>I'm in digital marketing Oh, my sweet summer child. Unless you're internal or in the top half of a big name agency you're in for a very rude shock - time's have changed so drastically. Pickup as much technical as you can and baton down the hatches.
> Unless you're internal What? Yes, obviously referring to internal roles
I assume from the post that it was looking at internal roles.
Marketing jobs are in a bit of a slump right now, after being high in demand around 2021. There’s a large candidate pool and many businesses are downsizing teams, not growing them. I’m sure you are great, but I can’t imagine many opportunities opening up at 180 and being digital only. Maybe the big banks and other massive enterprise. Interestingly I am seeing a trend in jobs being re-listed, so I wonder if the patchyness that’s been happened for near 12 months now is starting to level out.
Yeah, I'd reset my expectations to around $160k. Last few jobs I've applied for I've dropped that further to $145k. Let's see if I get any traction around that level.
Ai has taken most of the marketing jobs. There are ai now that can manage whole company social and marketing profiles and projects in a matter of seconds with the right prompts. Prompt Engineering jobs will be the next big thing.
Not a good time to be in marketing / digital marketing, which is most impacted by consumer spending. Cost of living is so high disposable income has been reduced by about 30%. We’ve had the largest reduction in quality of living in the OECD in the last 2 years.
I’d just increase your hourly rate or charge out by 10% ish and maybe find an extra client or so and find a hobby to do in your down time ahha Doubt going back to corporate will be anything great
I’m in a similar position to you, senior marketing generalist with same base. Been looking since Feb and have only had 1 interview. Seems like every role has over 100 applications. Salaries definitely seem to be down, very surprised at what I’m seeing some advertised at. Which is annoying because I was hoping to actually increase salary since mine hasn’t changed in 5 years, now looking like facing a decrease. Tech industry has been savage with layoffs so there’s lots of good marketing people around, but not a lot of desirable jobs. Not sure what the answer is.
I ain’t even breaking 70k, can’t imagine how much easier life would be earning double.
By my maths......twice as easy.
ATO has entered the chat
far more than twice. if he's living hand to mouth currently, he has $0 discretionary spending. If he went 140k, he would suddenly have 70k discretionary spending!
or half as hard (but also tax)
Just read an article about a white collar recession, where high paying jobs are scarce.
do you mind adding a link?
Might be a US thing but I'm sure it's similar in Australia. https://www.forbes.com/sites/qai/2022/11/23/white-collar-recession-2023why-the-highest-earners-may-fall-fastest/?sh=7520c63d18ce Couldn't find any Australian articles with a quick Google search but "white collar recession" has quite a few articles.
I left my job in December thinking getting something paying the same after a few months off would be a cinch. Wrong. Very grateful to have found a position paying more after 5 months away from it all but am stressing about losing it a bit. Last in first out, 6 months probation yada yada.
Work in digital marketing/integration and just moved into a role in Melbourne at 140k base, the jobs are around but not in the abundance they were before. That said, this is a role at a mostly boring finance-adjacent company. The interesting roles at fun companies are paying peanuts comparatively.
What sort of integration projects do you work on? Zapier etc? Or do you also do python? Asking because I'm keen to move away from digital marketing/project management into integration/automation.
I've spoken to a few recruiters recently. They are getting 60+ applications a day for corporate roles. Salary offers are down by 30k. That was the feedback. Lots of roles are on-hold or being revoked.
Purely my own suspicions, but I think a lot of the international corporates left during covid and have been pouring back in recently...
Yes - I had had to almost half my rate for some projects. I think inflation is causing a cost-price squeeze for employers and the quickest and easiest way to address it is to push contractor rates downwards.
There's been multiple posts here from people with marketing background lamenting the lack of opportunities in the industry in the last 12 months.
You work in marketing… a job that relies on money flow… people and businesses are tightening their purses It’s that simple
All technology consulting gigs are being killed. AI Apps now can do much of what what your field did. In US/Canada there is a huge recession in tech, as all jobs being replaced with more current skills consultants that will take half the salary.
This is what happens when you let immigration rip. You undermine the employee. My engineering job is some 20% behind what it was advertised for 2 years ago at the same workplace
yep, during covid rates skyrocketed, immigration opened and it dropped fast
It's pretty wild. It feels like you need a $300k+ HH income to survive these days. People have been complaining about slow salary growth for years, this salary _decline_ is alarming.
Bro if you need 300k hh income to survive you're either absolutely dog shit with money, or your living a life of absolute ridiculous excess
Gotta put the kids through private school, keep the car up to spec for the neighbours and other school parents to know you are doing OK! Etc.
But how else are you going to buy a 4 bedroom freestanding house within 10km of the Sydney CBD
haha you arent buying a 4 bedroom house 10km from Syd with only 300k a year lol
More like 40km
According to the Commbank home loan calculator if you have a 300k income, and a 700k deposit (or equity), then you can afford an average house in Sydney ($1.6m)
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120k house hold income with kids?
Yes. This was actually going on for sometime, maybe a year. But interestingly the national averages are up! I think there are multiple things happening in the background. The high paying ones are being replaced by immigrants (with less pay). Also the proportion of immigrants ending up in jobs above national pay average is higher.
Justifying 300k spending is the reason why it costs so much. If you moved outside cities, maybe you'd actually have a functional country instead of relying on sydneu
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You may hate hearing it, but it is correct. I own border regional property. I have looked at a lot of regional towns as that’s where a lot of construction was happening when I was last buying a few years back. Your valuation is pretty accurate for mid range, $650,000 for a 4 bedder on 700m2 block. Around $600,000 if not well designed or maintained, around $700-$800 if larger and/or well designed and maintained. I’d say 20% deposit as that’s actually achievable at that price range, and is a good move to make, but we’ll go with 10% just for the hell of it. That leaves 585,000 loan on a $650,000 house. At roughly 6.15% interest rate, which seems to be reasonable given what people are reporting they’re paying, that’s ~$3500-$3600 per month. Almost half of your $6,000 a month figure. You do not need private health, and if a lower income earner will not have to pay the extra levy either. But, for the hell of it, private health for a young couple: $260 a month. Council Rates: $150 a month. Throwing in details for a $650,000 border rural home into a home insurance calculator, $160 a month for home & contents insurance. Grocery cost is highly dependent on where you buy. Around my border property, prices are the same as near my suburban property. Cheaper sometimes. I’m great at being able to save money while still eating very well, but total grocery cost all inclusive is $460 a month ATM for family of 2. I’ll bump it to $600 to be more representative of the average. Add all that up, $4770 a month. For the hell of it, lets add more. $85 internet, $40 for two phone plans, per month. Monthly gas: $30. Water: $60. Electricity is harder, I’m on an average of ~$20 a month thanks to solar, after accounting for the loan to get the solar. Before solar, probably looking at closer to $90 a month so we’ll go with that. All up: $5,075 a month. Around $60K per year after tax. The true killer is car and car insurance. Fuel is about $5000 a year due to travel distance, insurance around $1900 a year due on my old petrol sedan. So, $67,000 a year after tax. Before tax, that’s around $88,000 for a single income family. Dual income you could scrape by at minimum wage easy. Now, adding kids does add a lot more cost, and your career progression if you lived out there would be shit, but its a lot more affordable than you’ve made it out to be. And the comparison is also pretty great; compare to a similar property 30km from the CBD. Around here that’s valued at around 1.4 million. 10% loan, you’re still owing 1.26 million. That’s $7,669 per month at the same interest rate. Just the home loan is already 50% higher than the total cost of border rural living. You can get something for around the $600,000 mark at that distance; my sister did. It was a two bedroom mini apartment on a split block, total size around 300m2. Half a driveway, no front yard, backyard smaller than border rural living room in the house, and half the house’s actual size. Border rural living is a lot more affordable than suburban living. A LOT more affordable. If you do a bit of research as to where as well, you’re not going to be short on any essential amenities either - you just might not have a whole shopping complex with a cinema and consumer goods stores, nor nighttime entertainment and restaurants - but they’re usually 20-30 minutes away if you need them. Job prospects? Shit. Would also limit your children’s higher education aspirations in the future if they didn’t want to pursue a trade, but for living? Probably the best value option ATM - which is its own problem as if people start living out there in droves, we have to spend a ton on infrastructure to support it, and they can’t get to CBD jobs so business growth is limited. We need higher density living near the CBD and transit corridors, and we’re moving that way, but its an ongoing fight and will take some time to achieve.
you clearly don't see foresight if you think I'm saying you (an Indvidual) should do this. im saying the government has caused this by overdeveloping cities for so long.
Yea good luck finding a corporate job outside a big city
Or, you know, the economy is finally starting to cool. Immigration has nothing to do with it in engineering, unless you’re in a very particular specialisation
Lol wtf you smoking. Engineering is still going gang busters atm Half the workforce of NSW is in south west Sydney atm and its basically blank checks for anyone with half a pulse!
Lol No Engineering pay has plateaued for 2 years. Had a recruiter offer me a role for $140k at a higher level than I was currently in. Politely declined and indicated you'd need to improve on my pay to actually get me to change. She said that's the market right now and that she thought it was a very competitive offer. Even went so far as to say I was in a very fortunate position and would never find pay at my current level again. Said have a nice day.
That’s just typical recruiter shit. I get ones offering 40% less for the same or slightly higher responsibility roles and act like it’s the best offer imaginable all the time
What stream of engineering? Civil/transport Infrastructure & construction still going nuts down here in Melb, whereas things like buildings, land development etc (ie reliant on private development) have dropped right off. I changed jobs end of 2023 for a pretty hefty salary bump and slightly less responsibility.
Same with energy. Both the public and private sectors are pushing money at renewables right now.
Yeah civil
Well, of course a recruiter would say that. The easiest measure of how hot a market is is how many independent consultants/contractors there are. Right now, I'm batting away work. Anyways, if you're civil, the infrastructure market is basically a name your price situation. Kids 5 yrs out are on $150k+.
You were realistically just ahead of the market 2 years ago
When you say engineering do you mean software or other
Probably civil or services (electrical, mechanical, etc) engineering.
Infrastructure engineering. With Sydney and Melbourne booming, and Brisbane desperate to get Olympics construction under way, and the renewable energy sector basically writing blank checks to anyone willing to relocate regional, it's nuts.
"blank check", compared to what? It seems like rates are about the same as they were a decade ago.
Hardly. A decade ago, a principle engineer would have been on say $150-200k. These days, that's 5-10yrs exp pay.
Are you talking about permanent or contracting? Because the decade ago seems low for contracting, and the "these days" seems high for permanent ($150k high for 5 and $200k unrealistically high for 10, without other attributes).
These are just standard FT roles at tier 1 consultancies and contractors for technical engineers
> You undermine the employee. making employees artificially expensive is also bad.
It's not artificially expensive if it's relative to the cost of living Right now cost of living is skyrocketing while incomes are going backwards How good!
Could also have something to do with the fact that the government isn't printing as much money anymore?
They definitely are. I feel like at least in professional spaces, the market has definitely turned from the seeker's benefit to the employers benefit. I have what I would consider to be an average base wage now for my position, but if I were to be seeking the same type of role in another business I'd be hired on at a lower base wage than I was a couple of years ago. It'd be harder to get the job too, the pool of candidates has really blown out in a lot of business areas because there's more people looking for jobs, hoping to increase their wage in the move. If I were considering looking for another job to increase my wage, but was also confident that my role wasn't going to suddenly disappear, I wouldn't be changing employers right now. The last one in is usually the first one out and I've heard rumours of employers (only rumours mind you) of probation periods being stretched from three months to six months in the last few months. You might have to lower your expectations, at least in the interim while the job market has turned. Any income is better than no income.
Starting to feel that way. I’ve knocked back a few opportunities at 130k… might have to start entertaining them
Yes. Also curious if there is a genuine shift in in demand skills. Feel that martech is now all the rage so maybe those roles are paying more?
They're around. I'm a performance manager on a figure over $130k base. Sydney. Head of roles for $130k sound low balled, as if you're at a digital agency or something
We've just run a cost out review to see out this FY - first off the block, $10m cut from marketing budget.
Cutting marketing budget is a bean counters wet dream lol But you all look to marketing and sales to turn it on when there's no more cutting to do :)
I'm in product not finance, so feel the pain. But marketing will always face the first and deepest cuts.
You're one of the good ones then
I'm a software tester. Salaries have crashed in my profession since 2022, with particularly contract roles down 40%. More senior positions than mine are now paying the same or less than I am on. I have no choice but to sit tight right now.
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My profile is open to recruiters and the public. With head of titles. Is there a way to use this feature to get consulting leads? Was thinking about that the other day
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I’ll have a go at playing with the titles I’m seeking. Thanks for the tip!
Good luck with the job search. My partner is looking and it's very competitive out there. Can I ask what skills you think are the most valuable rorna digital marketer to have these days? I'm marketing generalist with some skill in digital, but hoping to increase my earning potential. Any advice much appreciated!
An understanding of marketing technology. How data works and how it can flow around an ecosystem. Those people are invaluable and very few truly understand it from a total systems POV. Being the link person between technology and marketing is very valuable.
There is big variance in this space. Median seems around what you are saying but companies that get it (not always the big ones you think, scale ups can be a good space) will pay what is needed for good people.
Yeah my two best salaries were in scale ups. Usually the worst in startups (but I was also the least experienced).
Yeah I just spent 6 years in a startup with no increases (lots of equity though) which has now gone under and I’m owed a seriously large sum of money that I’m 9 months into waiting for from FEG, I don’t recommend. Currently CMO at a scale up now though
Can you offer different services?
In my experience, yes. I work in a similar area and senior roles have been absolutely decimated in the last year and as a result hirers are holding the cards. The inevitable outcome is that wages are pushed down.
Rate rise and tax time are coming up in 2 months, companies start doing their budgets for the financial year.
Digital marketing jobs, yes, other jobs, not so much.
High cost of debt has reduced a lot of consumer and business expenditure. High levels of inflation have put a lot of downward wage pressure on certain roles and industries (trades are protected though - it's still about politics not about genuine skill shortages).
Oh yeah, if you want a sure thing pick up a trade. Government will never let that fall over
There are a bunch of business articles that have just come out about the "white collar recession". Basically companies are cutting white collar roles and not hiring new runs, resulting un an average slump of hiring salaries (the average composed of organisations that pay less for various reasons).
I'd be counting your blessings
I'm honestly just feeling like moving into SaaS sales and accumulating MRR clients again. I went from digital agency back into corporate and I'm sick of it (the people). The biggest issue I had in agency land was the churn and the inability of some clients to get their shit together to capitalise on the leads they were getting. Thinking that setting up businesses on HighLevel on a lower monthly fee is a good way to integrate your service into operational costs.
I work in IT and have noticed this as well. maybe because there are so many people who are now experienced in the digital space? and many companies can also find cheaper labour offshore to do the same thing?
Yep..Seems like pay rates have dropped for professionals. Engineer here. My last financial year income was $212K. Now on $145+Super. Seriously thinking of joining the CFMEU.
Try IU and designer jobs in government. It's usually contract work, but contractors can earn $100/hour or more depending on experience.
Anecdotally I've noticed for specialised management work we seem to be entering this space where younger gen people take the role for significantly less than market value because it's part of their hustle culture identity. A kind of American type influence where they don't care so much about the pay check as they do about the social status and title. Say you're looking for a Data Scientist instead of a Business Analyst and watch as a bunch of Masters students line up to beg for the peanuts you're offering.
Tbf consultants are useless
This has zero relevance to anything
Money paid is usually a function of value created. Think orgs are seeing they don’t really need any many consultants. They’ll just get some rando colllege kid to format some slides.
You have zero grasp of the type of work I do if you think I format slides, but that's beside the point. This thread is about getting an internal role, not about consulting.
Based on your tone it’s obvious why you’re not getting any offers.
My tone? You tried to call me useless
I successfully called consultants useless.
Which part of digital marketing are you? Or are you like applying for general digital marketing management type roles?
Have done / managed most things. Pitching at a senior / head of generalist digital marketing level.
Yes it is. Recruiters are starting to contact me to do BD, never heard a peep from them the last few years. Cold call emails with descriptions of candidates experience and then asking salaries are much lower than 6-8 months ago.
Yes...30% paycut compared to covid salaries for the same role - i am also advised by recruiter that pay is less...and nobody giving 150K etc..
$180k jobs aren’t that many because businesses operate on a management pyramid, there are more supply of applicants than jobs offered. I was laid off from a $206k per year job in December, the closest I can find is a role paying $150k however the notice period is 3 month. Straight up rejected it
Great job advertising yourself
Thanks dood
My advice would be to reinvent yourself as an “AI marketer”. It doesn’t matter if you don’t actually know anything about it because we all know marketing is a bunch of bullshit for the most part anyway, no offence, that’s just been my experience interacting with marketing types over the years. But I bet you could bullshit your way into impressing a hiring manager by spinning a few yarns about how AI is revolutionary for marketing and you are the one to lead them into the brave new world.
I both massively disagree and agree with this comment lol
In the same spot. The market has really cooled and there’s a lot of applicants so the recruiters and the businesses know they can start bringing salaries down.
I see so many jobs on seek paying fuck all and the prices of those services is through the roof
It's less now. But it's not non-existent. The short supply of decent jobs has made the competition high.
The tech industry is absolutely saturated. More people willing to the do same job for less so companies pay less.
Trades are doing great. Engineering is good also, but a lot of the tech/dev stuff has more supply of skilled workers than demand at the moment. Tech has reached a bit of a solution looking for a problem stage. Look for a vertical to jump into, finance, rocketry, manufacturing, farming etc… Agency work in particular has fallen off a cliff as many companies bring work in house.
I think so....payroll jobs 2-3years ago were offering much higher remuneration.
Yes, professional workers taking a bit shafting atm. Pay is well down whilst cost of living is staggeringly high. Australia is the land of the brain drain and I foresee in the next 10 years if things continue the way they are going, we will become a third world nation.
I would disagree, lots of kiwis, poms and canadians come to Australia for better quality of life, I'm one of them
Just wait, even those workers are moving on! Queue another few years of out of control immigration, no investment in essential infrastructure and higher taxes. Remote work makes it even more interesting as people don’t from your economy but do not contribute the spending back
Where would they go?
All those nations are much worse then us to begin with. We are just further down the line from them. We will eventually be as bad as them, give it time.
So whats a great place to live to then in your opinion?
China not joking. And I'm a white Aussie.
Ok can you list top 3 pros of living china over Australia? Cons I can think of are Its authoritarian ie no political rights or freedom of expression Horrible air pollution (cancer rates are sky rocketing there) Not a great work-life balance (just like all of north east asia)
Pros 1. Much better public transport 2. Cheaper cost of living and higher purchasing power 3. Cheaper accommodation 4. Less crime 5. Much more modern infrastructure
3rd world ok genius….. so we will be like somalia. Sure bro
Quite the opposite of a brain drain. Australia draws the cream of the crop from other countries.
Feel free to leave. Less competion for the rest of us and thus even better pay haha But in reality, other than entrepreneurial professionals looking for venture capital, Australia is on balance well ahead of pretty much any other English speaking locations where Aussies can work.
Depending on what industry. See if your job is being replaced by AI maybe?
Um let me explain there's a retail spending 0.4% drop in the figures of spending. So the spending pie got smaller March alone there are 1131 companies that went into administration. So they closed shop.... And u do digital marketing? Yeah that seems like a culling and tight gig based on those numbers. How can other companies afford to pay u more. In this environment? If things are buzzing sure.... but with those weak retail figures lol and we imported an extra 100,000 clowns and we still dropped 0.4% yeah lol For the dumb people we are in recession if u take away the spending of immigrants to prop things up. Even with their spending and 100000 extra clowns we still -0.4% if u can't figure that as a red flag for the economy I dunno what to tell ya and its in your sector...
Digital marketing is a weak sector. I don't need you when I have a kid who can use chatGPT
AI does alot of this now.
A lot of what? What do I do that AI does?