To any cis men reading this - do not comment invalidating our very real experiences. **This post and any like it are not an invitation for you to participate here on a subreddit for non cis men with autism**. We will continue banning people that are obviously trolling and/or are obviously men making comments in bad faith, missing the point completely, and/or think that they have a right to comment here. You don’t. Read the rules. The bear question requires empathy for others and critical thinking skills which I understand many men are lacking in due to the patriarchy discouraging them from developing these things. That is not a valid reason or excuse for you to lash out at others or troll. Please start asking the women in your life that you trust and personally know to explain to you the bear scenario and ask clarifying questions before making the judgement that we are simply bashing on men or are misandrists. (Do not ask us here, read rule 7). If you do not have anyone to ask irl then seek out a good therapist because you have deeper issues if there is not a single woman in your life that you trust. It’s not about you as an individual man, the bear question is commentary on the patriarchal society we live in at large and the negative consequences of that, to put it as simply as possible. That’s all I have to say on the matter. TL;DR: Cis men, please don’t make invalidating or intrusive comments or you will get banned. :) Edit: Post is now locked due to influx of comments from…you guessed it. Plus I think everyone the bear question is posed to has already answered.

I’ve had similar experiences, and when I say “this guy is being a creep” I get “oh he’s just autistic”. Some guys really think autism gives them an excuse to be an ass, when it really doesn’t.

It's almost like creepy men will use any marginalisation they have as an excuse to be creepy men.

Yup this is 100% true!

Yes!!

That makes me so upset, too! I want to be like, “cool, me too. And I worked bonus hard to make sure I am not causing harm because I KNOW that I miss things sometimes.” Honestly, I ask people that I am close with CONSTANTLY how they’re feeling. People used to giggle about it until I explained that the reason I ask as often as I do is because sometimes I just have no clue. The point is, autism is not an excuse. Yes, we might have to work harder, but that doesn’t mean that we don’t have to put in the work. It also doesn’t mean that we are void of human decency as that excuse would imply.

Yes 💯! My husband and I were just arguing about this this morning. He said it’s not fair I get to use my autism as an excuse to say critical or harsh things all the time, it’s abusive. I got upset and said it’s ableist of him to expect me to constantly filter myself (which I do and obviously fail at) and b) if I said something that felt like a criticism, to TELL ME. If I recognize it might be harsh, I'll ask him because it wasn’t intentional. But if I didn’t know, and he feels like I was using "that tone" (ie my normal voice?) and he doesn't tell me, I’m completely oblivious! He makes it seem like it’s a conscious decision to be rude all the time and then hide behind my autism. That really upsets me, because one of my traits is to never be intentionally rude or mean when the situation does not call for it.

Isn't it interesting how males always get the pass because of autism, but us women don't?

I think deep down most NTs don’t really believe that we have autism, or believe in autistic women at all.

Not just NTs, I truly think there are a lot of autistic guys that don't believe women can be autistic

I think sometimes autistic men don’t like us because many of us are proof you can learn to be polite and pass for NT. Not that any autistic person should have to do that, but… it’s possible, and a lot of autistic women have had to do it to survive. Goes against the awkward rude-because-they-can’t-help-it autistic male narrative.

And they are like NT men and generally suck or don't care at looking inward at their own behavior and how it affects others because it's encouraged by the patriarchy.

Shit, I'm just happy (lucky and eternally grateful, more than anything) to find a partner in life that understands how I process my everything... And how I do doesn't make me rude, so it always confuses me when I see it as an excuse. There used to be the idea that autism came with a lack of empathy, but after over three decades of experiencing some of the worst of what people have to offer (it's been a horror show, I'll take bear over man or woman, thank you), I feel like people in general have an empathy problem and it just so happens some of these people are autistic. My adoptive dad told me he didn't used to feel empathy. For the first half of his life, his first thought upon meeting someone was essentially "how can I use this person for my gain?" He wasn't the worst to people, like he wouldn't directly harm folk, but he didn't care about them, so naturally he very quickly made a very good VP of a freight corporation once upon a time. In later years, he was disgusted by who he used to be. While I don't think he'd do a premeditated murder, his first marriage was awful because of both parties and I wouldn't put "murder of passion" beyond him if he truly had zero empathy. He had a rough night breaking down emotionally years later, alone in his truck on the side of the road, and he swore God appeared in his passenger seat. He described it as a tree or brambly like object that produced its own light, reflecting and glimmering of itself through its transparent structure, and it spoke within his own head. He was suddenly filled with emotions he hadn't known, like a love for everyone, and a hate for himself for the hurt he caused. He felt connected to the earth and all life in a way he never had. He was granted empathy after what sounds like a self induced ego death. I never knew the other man either, this change happened before I existed and "dad" to me was nothing like this previous version he described. But since he first told me it has scared the shit out of me just how many "normal" people could be out there lacking any feeling for others. It would explain so much if a lot of people were similar. Despite the belief pushed by pop culture, a lack of empathy doesn't create monstrous villains on its own, but it could often make for generally shitty people.

I've seen it happen online, autistic guys gatekeeping autism and saying their experience is the only one that matters.

Reminds me of another Reddit post where a woman was desperately trying to help her husband & express concerns she had & she found out from his mother he was autistic cause he NEVER TOLD HER & he had the AUDACITY to say that a woman could never understand autism & called her a bitch

My mom has tried to argue that I can't be a woman because I'm autistic. (I'm a trans woman)

Yeah that too.

I don't think they're that progressive. I think deep down most NTs still see women as objects and men as object-users most of the time. So autistic women are seen as malfunctioning objects in need of fixing, while autistic men are clumsy oafs who just can't figure out how to operate 'their tools'.

I hate this so much, but you are probably right. I know a significant number of NT women who are more misogynist than most men.

The number of times I've heard "you're not autistic" is absolutely insane. Sometimes even from parents of autistic males. No asshole, I grew up in a family where I was forced to pretend normal, meanwhile I felt like there was a goddamn social bell jar around me my entire life. It took YEARS to become good enough to pass the way I do now, I was a goddamn awkward and social inept child and teen. I also spend my free time reading hundreds of articles on psychology in an attempt to understand how to navigate society better and little tips and tricks that can help me. What's funny is that my family KNEW something was wrong with me when my school forced me to see a psychologist at the age of four. I was extremely attached to items and would bring them to school with me, and when I got overwhelmed and overstimulated from my situations, I would hide under my desk. Not to mention I was four and shouldn't have been in kindergarten with 5 year olds; we were developmentally on different levels. The psychologist said, "Well if could be ADHD but she could grow out of it, so I won't diagnose her, because she's four years old." About two years later, I just suddenly became "quiet" which was actually selectively non-verbal. No one thought anything of it because they thought I would be better behaved, but now they were annoyed that I didn't talk. It's only as an adult that I'm on my own and have the option to say "no" to things that I realized something wasn't quite right.

I think it's that woman and our thoughts, wants and desires just don't matter. For example lesbians don't get as much disgust as gay men (although we get a different kind of hate) and I think it's because in general people don't care what women want, being a lesbian doesn't matter because our consent doesn't matter. There's no disgust because men can easily insert themselves on lesbians, no biggie. It doesn't matter if we have autism or not because women don't matter. We don't matter as people, we are just objects to be used. Unless we have some kind of power or influence, then people will flip out.

Males always get pass it's so annoying.

Neurotypical men also get the pass. Neurotypical women also do not.

Weird I was just thinking this exact same thing. Oddly enough, I feel like I can get along better in social situations because I didn't have that "pass" granted to me. I was coming here to post about a situation from about two years ago in which an autistic male and I got pulled into a conversation with a fellow who was both drunk and developmentally disabled. The autistic guy could NOT fathom why the drunk man didn't comprehend the autistic man's argument/viewpoint (something about parking and driving) and started to get absolutely infuriated. Now me, on the other hand, understood that the drunk man was not going to understand logic at this point, but I also realized that the autistic man was unable to comprehend the drunk guy's thinking. The autistic man was coddled and from a very sheltered upbringing and I always found him to be a bit of a narcissist, and I realized why he was this way after this argument. He got a pass, and I didn't, therefore he never had to force himself to comprehend situations differently. His awareness of different viewpoints has been stunted.

it’s because they’ve been told that all their lives. their mothers and fathers were the ones fighting for their son’s right to be a nuisance because of the standard “he’s autistic! he can’t help it!” infantilization.

This. My son is level 2, and he knows when he’s said something mean or rude. It's not hard to set boundaries and explain what is considered pointing something out and saying it to be hurtful.

Yea I think decent amount of parents (particularly NT parents because they don’t understand what it’s like) default to the infantilising lowering of expectations, meaning the child never learns because they were never taught because their parents (and teachers and everyone else) expected they couldn’t learn.

Horrible. All it takes is just learning to communicate in another way, it’s not that hard to do at all. I’m glad I have autism as well, because I can see oh, I know why my son is melting down and he can’t explain what's going on. My cousin and his wife on the other hand refuse to accept their son is on spectrum too. He has adhd and dyspraxia. I suspect he’s also autistic, but they refuse to really acknowledge it and it breaks my heart. They couldn't communicate with their son because they insisted on intense therapy to force him to talk instead of using ASL or pictograms. Poor kid was in diapers until he was 6 because again they refused to use other tools to communicate his needs. I can’t imagine how infuriating that must've felt for him and my cousin. Like why make life that much harder for each other because you expect your son to talk like you? From my perspective, I would've started ASL immediately and recognized my son isn’t ready to talk but that shouldn't be a barrier.

I felt this in my bones

sooooo much horrid behavior is excuse because he "just has autism he doesn't know better 🥺" like bffr with that infantilization! he can learn! and for the majority of those men they only continue that behavior because they know they can get away with it. they know it's wrong and i am so mf sick of seeing people coddle them.

>like bffr with that infantilization! he can learn! This winds me up so much. We are expected to mask and do it well, but they get sympathy, and other people excuse inexcusable behaviours. I know there's a VAST spectrum, and some behaviours are uncontrollable, but you know right from wrong. Respect others!!

My step brother is ND and the most rappy, condescending, creepy person I ever met. His parents cuddled and still coddle him so much at almost 40 years old, it's just unbelievable. Just some context, I'm a nurse specialised in psychology and I worked some years with my local neurodivergent population which is mainly comprised of people on the spectrum. Anyway. Just so you don't think my opinion comes from nowhere. I know I shouldn't say that, but. The men were hell. Most of them. It was hell to work with them. A certain part of the groups always acted with no shame, no introspection and no respect. Everytime you tried to correct behaviors, the guardians always bent backward to protect them. And jordan peterson and that whole crew. They have an obsession with these guys and oh boy. It's not fun. Meanwhile, most autistic women I had the *pleasure* of working with were sweethearts. The guardians were... Also less interested it seems. Either they ignored them *because* they had good behaviors in favor of the ruckus making male or we had to intervene ourselves to make their needs be respected. Teaching them to step up for themselves was a huge but rewarding challenge. That's just my experience and observation, but women really mask well. Too well. Granted I was working with people already giving a hard time to those around them.

I hate this excuse because I have at least 3 - 4 autistic men in my life who have never, ever been inappropriate with a woman. They may have issues socially in other areas, but they have never been threatening, never harassed, at least 2 or 3 are explicitly feminist (the other has never said anything anti-feminist, it's just that his topics of discussion are usually music, work, or Star Trek). And if someone does something inappropriate, the correct response to being told so is "I'm sorry, I won't do it again" not "can't help it, autistic 🤷"

Sadly one of our (my partner and I's) best friends is married to a guy who has some extreme manbaby impulses sometimes. And he's rapidly hitting the point where "he'll grow up someday" is becoming less and less likely, despite some occasional attempts at maturing. If they didn't have kids together, I don't think they'd still be married. One of those relationships. Just for clarity I'll call this guy Ed. Anyway, Ed has a childhood friend who has autism. However, the friend's been over-coddled his entire life, and all of this friend's extremely not-okay behavior has been received by his parents as "oh he just can't help it" with zero attempt to give him life skills or self moderating methods. Which wasn't fair to that guy either, because you have to help people learn how to navigate real life, and no one ever did. Ed has clearly realized that his friend has a get-out-of-jail-free card, and now started saying that he's suddenly autistic. Now he might. I don't know. I'm not a qualified psychologist. But now he's gone from some vague attempts at change, to just totally shunning all critique of his behavior with "I have autism, I just can't help myself." Total lack of care about helping out with the new baby? It's the autism. Cuts her down in public around friends as a 'joke'? It's just the autism, can't help it. etc. He clearly had the means to moderate himself before. He wasn't the best guy before, but you could occasionally see him making efforts to be a better person. But now, whether he does or doesn't deal with autism, he's using it as a shield to deflect all criticism of him behaving like an utter tool. It really sucks. It's like at least before you could kind of confront them when they were being a completely jerkass to their own partner, but now there's nothing you can say or do that isn't just met with a perfect, impenetrable shield of "you're expecting me to do something I literally can't do, I have autism". No, you could before. Now you just refuse to because you figured out how to deflect blame, Ed. Whether you do or don't have autism. Agh it's infuriating and I'm so upset for our mutual friend and their kids. (Edit: to clarify my perspective, my partner is diagnosed with mild autism when they were younger, and they're 99% sure I have... something at least along those lines, and we have a handful of friends who are all perfectly fine, wonderful people who just also deal with the unique challenges of being autistic to some level or another. Neither my partner nor our other friends have ever felt the need to use "I have autism" as a shield when they act poorly toward others. And it sucks to see someone using it as a defense when they clearly do have the tools to moderate themselves, Ed just chooses not to use them.)

Any shitty behaviour and people are like, “are you autistic?”.

I think there has sadly been a problem with people being more willing to coddle autistic men but autistic women are not given the same grace or kindness, so whenever we try to talk to these men about their behavior, they seem to hide behind autism as an excuse for their crappy behavior

Yes 100% as an attractive autistic marginalized female, I was also bullied and sexually harassed by teachers and administration of both genders in highschool. Not only did I not get any support, professional adults actively made my life harder and further marginalized me. A lot of those male teachers were seemingly on the spectrum as well so yes I think this is a huge issue.

I’ve very much noticed myself that when I masked more, neurotypical guys treated me like a toy cause I’m plus sized & bi, so they always wanted sexual favors. Sadly, I’m also non-binary & have experienced a lot of transphobia from women as well. Now that I know I’m autistic & will mask less, people will consider me “too much” or treat me like I’m a child even tho I’m a grown ass adult with a car, a partner, a job, & a degree. I feel like I have to constantly prove my intelligence. Meanwhile, I’ve seen other autistic guys get away with SO much that I couldn’t get away with. I used to work with animals & I once worked with a guy who was also on the spectrum who would play music so loudly, he couldn’t hear me when I needed him to unless I was right beside him & he did SO many things wrong - & he worked there longer than me! But when I pointed it out to management, it was waved off, but when I had 1 thing go wrong, I got fussed at. Sorry Ik that was a lot of personal ranting but it’s just been so exhausting

There is weaponized incompetence , can we have weaponized misogyny?

I was 15 when the court told me that the man that assaulted me had Asperger’s and therefore didn’t know the difference between right and wrong. It gave me a lot of prejudice and made it take another decade to find out I’m autistic, because I have very strong opinions on ethics and morals and I know right from wrong.

There was this one guy I went to high school with who was in the special ed classes (higher support needs autism) and he was in band so I was around him a lot. Some of the things he said would imply that it's funny for people to be in danger. And he would always be around girls and make weird comments about or around them. I think many people in the band knew it was awkward but no one wanted to say anything because he is autistic and needs more assistance than others

I went to school with a similar dude, higher support needs. He was soooo incredibly creepy to girls and he *knew* he was being creepy. He was 19 still in high school and all the time making super sexual comments about his weird fetishes. Usually to the freshman girls. He would even straight up *admit* that he liked when he made us uncomfortable but did he ever get in trouble for it or corrected at all? Nope. “He’s autistic, he doesn’t know any better! Just ignore it!” is what the teachers and principals told us. 🙃

God, there's a coworker of mine who's an asshole to everyone and constantly berates people for not doing everything perfectly. And other coworkers will give the "well, he's just autistic line" and I'm like "and?!? That doesn't mean he just gets to be an asshole all the time!" Luckily our new supervisor has brought him under control but Jesus. Autism is not an excuse for any kind of shitty behavior.

Had a guy at work, who said he is autistic and thinks different and this is why i should do my work his way, while his way was destroying the company. I can't deal with autistic fucks any more who have this attitude, i just want to punch them in the face.

JFC this ULTRA CREEPY AND straight up fucking sexual assaulter in my ex's friend group was some yt gay man who would keep harassing my ex and the girls in that group he even put his hand on one of their breasts one time. They kicked him out of course but he's like 'oh I'm just autistic' The sheer force of anger and screaming that followed \[from me\] and had to explain to my ex that-that's not how ANY of this works. He's just a fucking creep, needs to stay away from people, and probably should go to jail. He was already out of the group by the time him and I were openly dating at the time--I saw him once and jfc he had demon blue eyes type of eyes. I absolutely loathe people using Autism or any disability for that matter to \*try\* to excuse shitty behavior and it just brings out this raw anger from me deep in my core

Many men just don't see women as people and that's the center of the argument. They think they should be able to treat us however they want to and we should have no thoughts or feelings about that. If we're calling them out like this, it means that we're not just background characters serving the plot of their lives and that fact makes them extremely uncomfortable.

https://preview.redd.it/oi5mjple4hyc1.jpeg?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=b5366b895a248e61a6c146dcc4b8f5b23a838047 I saved this pic from FB and will be sharing it where it seems appropriate. Feel free to steal it!

Perfection.

Yesss!! There is a great book called Down Girl: The Logic of Misogyny. She has this really interesting argument in the book that reminds me of yours. It's when we show our humanity that they must snuff it out.

I've been watching Dr. Mick on YouTube -- he's a licensed therapist who does video games playthroughs and explains concepts about human development and how the brain works as he plays. And after hearing him explain about how people objectify others in order to get themselves into a place where they can treat other people like shit -- it's really startling how prevalent this behavior is throughout our society. A lot of people treat themselves and others as if people are just objects -- sources of labor, sex, ego, and money. Interactions for them are mostly transactions where they get something for doing/saying something. Didn't get what they expected? They throw a fit. Anything and anyone that doesn't follow this transactional formula gets harassed. Because how dare you have boundaries and be a person instead of just a thing that gives me what I want when I want.

Anything to do with gender inequality comes right down to that. The majority of men don’t see women as people. It feels kind of hopeless sometimes because I don’t know how we’re ever going to progress as a society at all when so many men think that way (usually subconsciously) and will not change. :/

> 90% of us will be attacked sexually in our lives You know what I find so ~~interesting~~ devastating about this percentage? There is no woman I know that has *not* been attacked sexually. **I have asked every woman I know**, and I asked them to ask every woman they know. The 90% matches up to sexual harassment starting in childhood. 100% have been sexually harassed, assaulted, or raped in/by adulthood. Not every woman's sexual harassment starts in childhood, but every woman has been sexually harassed or worse. #yes, all women [1 in 3 college men are willing to rape as long as we change the wording](https://www.pbs.org/newshour/nation/men-dont-know-meaning-rape) (more women admit to being raped if the wording is changed as well)

Leave groups that foster misogyny. At some point, your need for self-preservation has to take priority. Regardless of neurotype. We live in a patriarchy where the needs and wants of males dominate everyone else in the room. It's unrealistic for us to take this on as a personal mission to fix. We need to align with our peers and fight misogyny in numbers. Some of these online spaces are misogynistic cesspools. It's OK to leave those spaces and find spaces that raise you up against those injustices <3

I feel like at this point the only way to avoid misogyny is to not be anywhere near men, am I totally brain broke?

Not just men: I’m carrying around a shit-ton of internalized misogyny. I’m working on it, but I’m not the only one.

I was raised in a traditional, gender-based household. I legit thought men took priority, because that was what I was taught and raised to believe. I've had numerous ah-ha moments in adulthood that have helped me see the abuse we're trained to accept and you're right - internalized misogyny holds us down too. It takes time and effort to recognize what misogyny actually is and how it's ingrained/taught as the default. Hopefully, having spaces like this where we can discuss misogyny/internalized misogyny and learn from each other's experiences helps to reduce misogyny overall.

Nope, misogyny exists everywhere. Society is based on it, because it's profitable. But there are spaces that *openly foster it* and spaces that fight against it or don't fuel it. Choose the spaces that don't foster it. It's a fine line in some instances, but it's pretty obvious that the fb spaces you're talking about foster it. Edit: fixed spellcheck autocorrect, oh the irony of it!

Really balanced response 👍

I mean sometimes (a lot of the time) I do just really wish I lived in a seperatist commune somewhere away from men.

Sounds like a good idea. At least worth trying.

Perhaps this is a good chance for us to be intersectional with women from other marginalized groups. Men putting their gender identity above their marginalization seems pretty common.

No, npt really. There are men without misogyny, but they don't frequent one place or anything. Just be leary and expect the worst

Don't be anywhere near misogynistic men. Dealing with misogynistic men will just make us bitter against men and then be unfair to men who are good and not misogynistic. A 0 tolerance policy toward misogynistic men is giving credit to men as a whole and will give you a chance to meet decent men and women alike.

OP you may be interested in the tenants of the 4B movement. basically women collectively putting men on extended time out. we live in a society that has men in it; we’re not going to be able to avoid them completely. but we can try lol

It's [6B4T](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/6B4T_movement) actually. Sorry to be that person.

no worries! i appreciate being made aware of semantic updates

It’s ok to recognize a pattern when you see one and protect yourself accordingly

You don’t have to give them grace? Lowkey they’ve probably been given grace and the benefit of the doubt their entire lives. There’s no reason to be empathic in this situation. There is no reason for you to hold space for men, regardless of neurotype. You should only hold space for people that actively show you they value you.

Facebook keeps showing me misogynistic posts about this and the entire comment sections are men missing the point, shifting the hypothetical scenario so clearly the bear is more dangerous, insulting and openly hating women etc. So many comments saying "I'd like to see them try to be in the forest alone with bears!" Okay buddy, clearly you never spend time in nature and are afraid of bears or have no idea what bears are actually like. Many women go camping and hiking alone in bear country without issue, myself included. Follow the right steps and the bears will actively avoid having to interact with you, but the same can't be said for men. Just another example of men thinking they control the narrative on women's lived experiences.

Bears are a special interest of mine. I never realized how LITTLE the general public knew about bears until this debate came up. “Hurdurdur why choose bear when bear will eat you” WHY WOULD A BEAR WANT TO EAT A HUMAN (unless it’s a polar bear but of course nobody specifies what kind of bear) I got downvoted for telling someone that a BLACK BEAR is not going to eat them. A black bear. A fucking black bear. Aka big raccoon bear.

Right?? Sure there are cases where a bear can be too curious and gets into trouble, or they become habituated to people and associate people with food sources, which can be a problem. But bears are also often just chilling, doing their thing, minding their own business, and deserve respect...can't say the same for some men.

My current theory is that most men's only experience with bears is as a video game monster that is always aggressive. They jump so fast to bears wanting to eat you.

i love black bears so much. i used to live somewhere where the cubs would come play on my porch and mama bear would climb in the apple trees. uggh i love bears.

I have been alone in a forest with bears. It was fine. But bears are simpler to navigate.

Bears don't get mad when you're afraid of them, which is just one way they're simpler.

THIS NEEDS ALL THE UPDOOTS.

Ooooh that is a solid observation

I've seen bears a handful of times while out camping or hiking, but they're always off in the distance being good antisocial bears. A few bears I've come across on roads just immediately run off like a big shy dog. It kind of makes me a little sad how people assume bears are just vicious killing machines that attack everything without provocation. They're amazing animals.

I know! The ones in my area only get aggressive if you're too close to their cubs or they're hangry. Other than that, they're cute. This whole debate makes me think men don't know much about bears. It was already obvious they don't see women as people.

But still.. like, carry bear spray please.

Bear spray works on humans, too. So bear spray is the best answer here.

I keep bear spray on the waist belt of my backpack, it's both easily in reach and visible.

The only bears they seem to know of are in horror movies and video games.

That’s my favorite part about this discussion. I literally have a traumatic memory around bears, and I instantaneously chose the bear. lol They don’t get that we aren’t choosing the bear because we think it’s a 100% chance of survival; we’re choosing it because if that bear happens to kill me, it isn’t going purposefully capture me and do far worse first. A random man could, and random men have.

Food and protection of cubs are the only reasons a bear will prey upon a person. Humans will do it for a sense of power, entitlement, spite, control, revenge, or just because they're fucking cranky that day. The bear is easier to make an accurate snapshot assessment because it won't lie to you.

Bears will respect your personal space if you respect theirs

"Men are scary" is unacceptable, but "bears aren't that scary" is also unacceptable. It sounds like they just want us to agree with whatever their opinion is. 🙃

This bear vs Random Stranger debate is so stupid. As someone who lives in an area where encounters with wildlife (bears, coyotes, cougars etc) are super common, we were taught since elementary school what to do if you encounter said wildlife. 99% of the time a bear’s priority is food, the other 1% being self preservation or the safety of its cubs. No one has ever taught me what to do if I encounter a man that becomes dangerous, and there is no way for me to know what his intentions are. Plus, if I were to be attacked by a bear, at least I wouldn’t be blamed for my own victimization. I still don’t understand how some men don’t get that it’s necessary for women to operate under the assumption that any man could become violent for her own damn safety. Like we see it all the time - women attacked by random dudes in the park, women being assaulted or even KILLED because she didn’t want to give him her number, and on and on and on. And then they have the audacity to treat us as if we’re being insane for not giving them, a Random Stranger, the benefit of the doubt. Like no dude, you are not that special. If you’re a decent guy who would never do such horrible things, it is YOUR job to show that you are a safe person to be around. But I guess it’s always been easier to blame women for not seeing what a totally cool and not dangerous guy you are. Sorry about the rant, but it’s all to say I get you. Being around misogyny can be so frustrating and exhausting. I just wish men could find some empathy and see how they can be threatening to us, instead of downplaying our very real safety concerns. :(

As someone who also lives in an area with bears, I 💯 agree with your take here. 

A bear had never lured me to a corner of the park to expose himself but a man has.

unfortunately there’s a lot of overlap between autism, social groups online and male incel/misogynistic behaviors. just yesterday a guy i work with who is generally nice and pleasant to work with, went on a multi minute tirade about mary kate and ashley and how their fashion empire does “nothing for society. at least the youngest sister elizabeth ACTUALLY functions as a member of society and does something worthwhile”. so because elizabeth is in marvel movies he likes to watch, she has worth but the other two who survived SA, lifelong privacy issues and built a multi billion dollar industry are somehow trash. it’s in everything we do and see unfortunately. men hate seeing women flourish because their own male arrogance refuses to allow them to care for themselves and enrich their own lives. they’re bloodsucking leeches when that have that “fuck women” mentality.

Incel groups are attractive to men who feel "lesser" or "othered" in some way. Autistic men feel like they can't relate to non-autistic men and Incel groups pretend the reason is that they need to hate women more.

yup. they target vulnerable men and convince them that their problems are all because of those stupid women, it’s disgusting….

nailed it!!

Honestly who cares if they’re not acting anymore. It’s taking nothing from his life?

right? i was thinking to myself “what a very weird way to show everyone your hidden misogyny”

The man or bear discussion has really opened the floodgates on mansplaining (though i don't live the term). As if women are unable to understand what bears do.

It’s why i a became a lesbian

I similarly saw a guy say he felt dehumanized by the discussion and couldn’t express that anywhere without women getting mad. Like, fuck bro you are SO CLOSE ! Women feel dehumanized EVERYDAY and now you finally understand what it feels like!! That should give you empathy towards women, not more hate, but egocentric emotionally immature brains cannot see the world from anyone else’s perspective…

Once again "mememememememememe" that is all it is. They just make it about them.

I saw a guy saying basically, "I understand why women choose the bear. I'm just so sad that I'll be seen as a predator." Oh, that's the saddest part???

Right? Maybe start doing something about it? Call out other men on their toxic behavior. Be the fucking change. Women won't look at a strange man and not wonder how he could hurt her until the culture is drastically altered.

Yeah I was involved with one of those conversations. Yeah boy, your feelings being hurt is worse than people actually prioritizing their own safety.

RIGHT? Ugh!!!!

What is the bear debate? 

If you were a woman would you rather be alone in the woods with a bear or a strange man.

Oh! That’s insane. They know how dangerous they are. Reminds me of the video of the bear going up to a young woman. She stood still and was scared. So many comments about how she looked like a girl interacting with a man. Like they know exactly how intimidating and horrible they are. I would be disturbed too. It’s ok to leave those groups. 

Agreed 👍

Thanks, I was wondering as I've seen it referenced.

Okay maybe this isn't the point but what *kind* of bear? Black bear ok, no problem, I got this. Grizzly bear... eh, let me see the man's facebook page and I'll think about it. Polar bear, I'm going with the man.

The way I see it is one of the random men on the planet and one of the random bears on the planet. Statistically the man is more likely to hunt me down and do me harm than the bear which is most likely just going to mind its own business unless it's desperate or feels threatened.

That's pretty much my logic on this as well. Plus, if the bear ends up attacking me, at least I'll "only" get mauled to death. If a human man attacks me, all alone in a forest, where noone can hear me scream, I'm pretty sure I'm going to be subjected to the types of violence, which will make me *wish* I'd been mauled by a bear instead. So, yeah. I'll take the bear.

Exactly. At least the bear won’t try to do things to me before killing me.

The point is also that if a bear is aggressive, it is because they are protecting their young or something simple. And they will just maul or kill you. A man will assault, torture and hurt you in vile ways. TW but the case of Junko Furata is a case that is a terrifying example of what multiple men did and were ok with. Not one stopped it. Not one of them helped her or reported it and they all walk free to this day. A man can see you alone in a forest with no one around and think "I can get away with doing what I want to her, then murder her and no one will know." If a bear attacks a woman, no one will ask what she was wearing, what she said or even if it happened at all.

What kind of bear doesn't matter. The point is the bear doesn't have malice toward you and doesn't get off on your pain and fear.

I love this literal response. Bear encounters are so situational (and I suppose with men too). I live in bear country and I agree with your logic. :) I feel for OP. :(

Ok thank you. I'm glad I'm not the only one wishing people would specify this. We need to stop generalization about bears! /s

I think part of the issue is that you even need to ask questions about the bears. 

I’d vote the bear. They attack when feeling threatened, no? Men attack when feeling insecure. I hold no threat to bears, but men smell my lack of patience for their ego so I get easily attacked by them. There are good guys though, just like some bad bears. I will nap now.

Have a good bear nap! 

I broke up with my bf over this debate bc it showed me he is scary and not safe. He bugged out and we got into a giant fucking argument. We’ve been together almost 2 years and it was the straw that broke the camels back. You don’t believe my lived experience and are gonna pull the not all men card go fuck yourself. I’m sorry you had this experience

It’s why i am no longer bi and am now a full blown lesbian

In my generation it was the phrase: “men are afraid women will laugh at them, women are afraid men will kill them.” This was also very misunderstood. I have nothing other than the observation that nothing much seems to have changed since 1988 except the speed of transmission 😞 But hey, watch the original Heathers film if you want a “heck yes bitch!” moment to revel in. 😉

They should be mad at other men and our misogynistic culture for making things this way for women. They should be lecturing other men on how bad it makes them feel, not us. They should be encouraging other men to set good examples and be proud of each other for breaking out of a toxic culture that makes them all look bad by association. But they don’t, they just blame women and play the victim and nothing ever changes.

The call is coming from inside the house! men can’t stand the thought of women choosing to be single, because they’d never choose it.

Of course not, because them choosing to remain single means they have to do their own menial household chores. Women choosing to remain single *also* means men have to do their own menial household chores. It’s a never-ending horror! /s

This is such a great point!

They act like we’re asking them to do the impossible by changing the current culture and then they turn around and blame feminism in the same breath for changing modern culture. If it’s so impossible then how did we do it? We organized, educated, supported and inspired each other. All while being treated as weaker and less logical. So they should be able to do the same if they want to.

I didn't have male friends for almost 5 years. I am actively avoiding them because it's always the same. Regardless of NT or autistic. I don't feel bad for doing this because I don't think I owe them anything and at the end it's my decision who's a part of my life. The bear debate is another proof for me that I'm on the right track.

I pretty much only hang out with men who don't "perform gender", in my boyfriend's words. It's been the most reliable metric to determine if a man will treat me like a person.

Oooo I think I know what you mean. I know of the obvious bro-y guys, but how do you know if a man isn't performing gender?

Examples are probably the best way to illustrate. My boyfriend isn't afraid to say "Awwww" when cats are cute. One of my male friends fucking loves bubble baths and riot grrrrl music. Another AMAB friend identifies as non-binary and is one of the most conscientious of other people's feelings I've ever met, almost to a fault. None of these people took to the tough guy thing naturally and are not interested in appearing as such. They just want to like what they like and not be called the "f" slur for it. Weirdly enough, liking cats has been a green flag in my experience because cats require you to respect them. They will not blindly obey.

I've been hit on and made uncomfortable by guys who don't necessarily "perform gender"; I honestly think men are picking up on things to say to appeal to women or sort of do things performatively. I've seen it on a range of definitely intentional/manipulative and unintentional but still harmful. An additional struggle is being on the spectrum...even if I've met men who aren't misogynistic, understanding autism and not being ableist is a completely different issue. The cat thing is so real, though.

Same here. I am trans and used to see the shit that men said and felt disgusted by it without realising it was because I was a trans woman. I would just love to live in a feminist seperatist commune somewhere frankly as I can't be asked to deal with men and how entitled and dramatic they are.

At this point, I honestly wish I was attracted to my gender because I just can't with men anymore. Especially because I'm grey-ace. I'm tired of being taken advantage of or dealing with guys who want that one thing. I never know what they actually want.

I definitely feel lucky in regards to my sexuality tbh. I am bisexual but I actively choose not to date guys.

Yeah, hence I'm currently at the "dating no one" phase of my life while my biological clock ticks away. 🫠

this might get downvoted, but i’ve realized a few things. autistic men are very often diagnosed as a children, whereas autistic women are more often diagnosed later in life. so, these men were not only given the standard different treatment when they were raised (yk, young girls are held to a much higher standard, taught to behave, young boys can do whatever the hell they want), but they were also known to be autistic, so they got this double whammy of coddling and infantilization. such an environment produces extremely entitled, dangerous men. everything is about them.

It’s kinda worse than that. Autistic brains can be very rigid in many ways, but adaptive in others. A lot of autistic children get placed in “behavior classrooms” where they simultaneously have to learn to survive in an antisocial peer group, please their teacher for access to needs, and are punished and ostracized for autistic sensory behaviors while not having any sort of routine access to therapy relating to emotional regulation, social skills and boundaries. It’s just all about “control yourself” expectations with lack of appropriate supports. It is part of the school to prison pipeline here in the US. Texas is especially horrific.

This was a super interesting comment to me. I’m 43 AFAB and self diagnosed in January. On advice I read about being late diagnosed, and how helpful it can be to find a local support group, I joined my local provincial charity support group. It’s a mix of all genders. I get the impression that many people in the group are late diagnosed and self diagnosed. We have very vulnerable and emotional sharing sessions when we meet on Zoom every couple of weeks, and in between chat on Discord. Recently, the conversation on Discord ended up discussing misogyny. This conversation continued over the course of several days, and I’ve got to say, I was pleasantly surprised. It was far better than many conversations I’ve had with NTs about this. The AMABs in the group listened and were supportive, genuinely seeing the problems and interested to learn from what women have experienced, seeing how big a problem it is and clearly wanting to be good allies.  Likewise those in the group who had stories to tell felt comfortable sharing them and I would say we all moved productively through the conversation in a respectful and ultimately positive manner, whilst not shying away from the brutal realities of the situation. Ultimately, it resulted in the group deciding to have a special Zoom session of specific education from an outside speaker about the issue, partly because the men wanted to take responsibility for their own learning and allyship, and didn’t want to put the burden of educating them on the women in the group.  Since this is a group of mostly late diagnosed people, who have been through a lot of trials and trauma before arriving at their autism diagnosis and finding this group, I wonder if we are all just more understanding and open to hearing each other's experiences. I should point out too - the group is moderated, and whilst that moderation is very light, and all topics are up for discussion, everyone there knows there are rules. Still, I don’t think you can fake genuine care and attention.

This past year so many things have come to light to make me distrust men, I cannot, it is simply un safe and they will never understand.

Literally like in a different vain, right now there are two very popular rapper arguing right now. One is being labeled as an abusing of his partner, the other is being called a child predator. Both of these men are men I would not feel safe around and I would not trust. Or the man who posted all those pictures with his kids and then said he didn’t want children, hates taking care of them and wants to hurt them. Men are literally the scariest beings on this earth. Edited for grammar

The fact men can’t take a hypothetical “NO” is even more evidence for team bear. if a bear attacked me, at least I’d be believed. Furthermore, if most bio men were gone crimes against women would plummet. Gotta give props to all the straight women out here, the only ones who have to date their natural predators.

> Gotta give props to all the straight women out here, the only ones who have to date their natural predators. I think about this all the time. It's heartening to see the numbers of women who say they choose to be single even though it hurts sometimes because partnering with a man is too much of a risk. It's darkly amusing the way that many men lose their ever-loving shit over that kind of talk. They are horrified at the thought of being forever alone, and cannot tolerate the thought that women see solitude as a comfort.

It seems most autistic groups got flooded with incel “women don’t want to have sex with me because I’m autistic” kind of mindset! While I’m sure that most of these guys would totally ignore most autistic girls who are not considered “school cheerleader hot,” just “average.” I’m not even reading the bear vs men thing because I’m sure I will get annoyed at it! They think women owes men sex and they are not getting something that is righfully theirs because of ***add any BS here that puts women in a bad light and these guys as poor victims of society**. Its so objectifying, dehumanizing, and disgusting!!!

I just commented on a separate sub about this very topic. There were a lot of understanding men, but there were also a lot that didn't understand. They get very angry when a woman says they're not comfortable around strange men, because they're making it about them (it's always about them). They should be looking at the bigger picture, many if not all the women in that sub said they'd choose the bear (myself included), and they fail to see that the collective experience of women have been traumatized, and for a long time. I *loathe* people like that. Men are so used to having the upper hand I don't even think their brain has the neural pathways to understand empathy, like, literally they don't know how. 😡

Idk if bears can have autism but id rather be in an autism group with a bear tbh

I think most animals can be divergent - so I wouldn’t be surprised. I’ve had cats that really were a bit different in the past

Oh. If you drop me into a pit with 100 snakes in it and tell me not to worry because only 10 are venomous, I’m not wasting time trying to figure out which are which, I’m going to avoid them all just in case. That’s how I feel about men. This would be my response to the bear debate.

You know what that say: “ you are either part of the problem, or the solution “. As it’s been said, for your own safety, don’t stay in groups harboring misogyny. I just had something similar in a charity org in the last 2 months .. since I joined, I got harassed 3 times, because of enabling such men, with various excuses from neurodivergence to being lonely or old. Got the ick, but it’s sad, because the voluntary work was really cool.

People can be autistic and also assholes. I’m highly distrustful of the average cishet man, and so far they haven’t given me a reason to change my opinion.

I can shout/stomp/clap/throw rocks to scare off a bear. I can’t do that with a man. Furthermore why should I have to with a man? Saying no should be enough.

As an autistic woman, I’m SO uncomfortable around autistic men. Many men are creeps that can and WILL push your boundaries if they’ve decided that you have something they want; socially they’ve been taught that their desires come before anyone elses comfort/saftey. This also applies to autistic men. Some are worse than allistic men. From my experience the reason this happens bc if an allistic man harasses/assaults you or whatever, there’s at least a small chance that he’ll be held accountable, even if it’s not much. Autistic men do something to you? “Oh well he’s autistic he doesn’t know better.” So you wind up with a bunch of grown adult men that have literally never been told no, so they display the above behavior you mentioned op. Example: When I was a teenager probably at least a dozen other people witnessed a guy sexually assault me by groping my breasts ect. Not only did he not get held accountable, nor were the police called, I got MOCKED by a gaggle of other kids that witnessed it. I got asked if I’d done anything to “encourage him or lead him on”. It’s also worth mentioning this was at a weekend camp for Catholic kids, but that a whole other conversation about how religious institutions enable and protect abusive men.

I feel you and I have nothing helpful to say really.  I avoid topics like that for this reason. I feel for those men who clearly have huge insecurities and warped views of the world, but they can stay the fuck away from me while they sort it out. Men need to start relying on each other for fulfillment if they can't be empathetic to struggles they don't experience. It's not up to us to constantly fill that gap for them.

I am only in female groups! Protect your peace!!!!!

I saw this exchange and it was so disgusting. Like be a comedian for Jesus if you want but don’t try to turn a serious conversation about women’s lived experiences into a crappy pun. Jesus wouldn’t do that. Predictably he deleted and blocked all the women who told him it was disrespectful and then claimed it was a joke. https://preview.redd.it/hqagmfbw7gyc1.jpeg?width=945&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=862ab10649cbb79c9eb34ecd58bc9ffa83325b42

At this point the phrase “it’s a joke” has taken on a whole new meaning. It used to mean “I’m making an attempt at humor” and now it’s become “I said and meant something incendiary and now people are mad at me and I’m trying to do damage control”.

Honestly, I feel like that's just men in general sometimes... At this point I'm honestly becoming the stereotype of the "man-hating lesbian" but I am just so so so fucking tired of the way men treat me, and women in general. And I feel kind of bad about it, nobody deserves to be automatically scrutinized just because of their gender, but whenever I try to be more open-minded and try to have a (platonic) relationship with a man, it never goes well and just proves my point and makes me feel more attached in my mindset. Autistic men definitely do seem to be even worse about it though. I was abused in multiple ways as a young teen by my "boyfriend" at the time, he was autistic, and it always seemed like people kind of doubted his ability to even be abusive at all... just because he's autistic. I think part of it is because characters like Sheldon Cooper that are presented as the "average high-functioning autistic man" are always assholes who treat people badly. When autistic men see that representation, and the fact that people like these characters, it kind of validates their behavior. It's easy to see that and think "if this character is an asshole and people love him, then I can be an asshole too and people will love me!" because autistic people don't always realize that fiction doesn't always translate into reality. For example, I remember being in middle school and watching Disney Channel tv shows and movies to "prepare for high school" and then being surprised that people didn't really act like that in real life high school...

I left all autism groups except this one too. It's less about them being autistic but males hating on woman...

This has just been a general male reaction I think. And fuck it's been tragic to witness.

I honestly trust men I know are autistic *significantly less* than I trust NT men, and that bar is low. They’re used to being extra coddled because of their autism and that makes the misogyny so much worse.

i really don’t get why they can’t see the logic. if i came across a bear, there’s a protocol in place and i could most likely scare them away. there’s no “protocol” for avoiding a man who could hurt you. you cant convince them because they aren’t attacking you for survival (like the bear), they’re attacking you bc they’re disgusting. and let’s say i do get attacked, id rather be mauled by the bear and eventually die than possibly psychologically/physically tortured for however long the man wants. especially knowing they take pleasure in it. why can’t men understand that they are literally our natural predators. women are constantly getting killed by men all over the world. it’s been happening FOREVER. it’s literally wired and beaten into us to be fearful of men. women can’t even trust the men we’re close to. how could we trust someone random? family members and partners are sooooo much more likely to hurt us than random ppl. but that’s a diff convo.

Yeah I’m so fucking sick of the bear vs. man discourse too. Forgive me if that makes me a bitch but people taking offence at women saying they’d rather take the bear are making it all about themselves. If you’re not a predator or a serial killer then IT’S NOT ABOUT YOU. Ask yourself why it hurts your feelings. The sane reaction is to go ‘wow, that sucks that women are at such a high risk of facing violence from men, but I’d never hurt anyone so they don’t have anything to fear from me’. I’m sick of this ‘not all men’ bullshit. Not all men but somehow always a man, and if you let your guard down and give them the benefit of the doubt, and get hurt, they call you an idiot for not being more ‘careful’. They call you stupid for being stuck in abusive relationships because you ‘should’ve known better’. No wonder women are choosing the bear; at least if you’re attacked, you won’t be treated like *you’re* the criminal as you testify in court, people won’t say you were asking to be attacked and demand to know what you were wearing, and people won’t bend over backwards to justify, defend, deny, and diminish what the bear did to you. The sad reality of being femme-presenting in this world is that you have to be careful. A woman who doesn’t know you doesn’t know whether or not you could be a threat, so it’s safer to be wary. If you’re not a threat to women mind your own damn business. It’s like going around drinking leftover drinks at a party. One of them could be spiked, and statistically that’s not extremely likely, but the consequences of it happening are bad enough that you just aren’t going to do that in the first place. But not all drinks are spiked, am I right??

I think it’s because of the very idea that women don’t immediately trust him (meaning a guy who gets upset about this) to be a Special Boy who would never do bad things to women, and the lack of inherent trust hurts his fee-fees. You see these same types protest that they’re not creeps when women don’t want to come to their house for the first date. They think that their “virtuousness” should stand out, because they’re the Main Character. Actually thinking about the root of the problem never crosses their minds, because to them women are NPCs and the only thing that matters is how the current events affect men, specifically whoever is currently speaking

I just want to shake these people by the shoulders and scream ‘IT’S NOT ABOUT YOU’. As a non-muslim I don’t feel attacked when muslims call out islamophobia in the UK because I’m not an islamophobe, end of. If you’re not doing the bad thing being spoken about then they’re not talking about you, stop looking for reasons to be offended ffs 😭

right? i’m not black, but i don’t feel attacked when black people call out or bring attention to systemic racism. i’m not a wheelchair user but i don’t feel attacked when wheelchair users complain about lack of ramps or slow moving people in their way. there are so many groups im not a a part of that speak out against their inequality and i don’t feel attacked because ITS NOT ABOUT ME

But then I’m like…how tf do you think we feel then?? And we’re not out here complaining about it??? I’m a small black woman and old white people love acting like *they* don’t outnumber me sometimes. Like a woman literally screamed once and clutched her husband like statistically it wasn’t more likely they were gonna kidnap me And my stereotype isn’t even based on real life like there’s and I don’t complain 😭 Ask other brown women. That’s something I hate, men state a lot of experiences like only they go through them and it makes it obvious when they think “women” they’re thinking about particular people

You have no obligation to attempt to raise their consciousness, especially at the price of your own mental health. Stay away.

I feel the same. Also on reddit. And as soon as you call it out you get flooded with "fucking feminists cry louder" and "wäääh wäääh" and "dont be such a bitch"

As a trans man I also don’t participate in autistic subreddits other than autism memes and autism in women, since I have similar experiences to women because I present similarly, and because of the rampant misogyny they often feel unsafe. Your perspective is a completely valid one. I don’t post on this sub or comment much because I’m also worried about the fact that it is a space for women and I’m not one, but it’s the only autistic based subreddit where I can read the posts and actually relate to them. On Reddit in general misogynistic, homophobic, transphobic, racists, etc, people are often protected far more than they should be and with the men/bear debate and how pressed cis (mostly cis-het) men are over it, it makes complete sense to feel unsafe or uncomfortable with the posts by angry men. I know this is tagged as vent/rant and you’re not looking for advice or anything so I’d like to clarify I’m not trying to give anything like that, but just wanted to say you’re not alone in this and there’s many people who understand how you feel.

I had to leave the main autism subreddit purely because I couldn't handle the men there, and this was last year sometime. It is... depressing. I am bisexual, but I don't date cis men at all because they are, frankly, scary. I guess this is an IRL example so maybe it is not as relevant, but I was just walking around my neighbourhood when a man asked me 'how I was', and the proceeded to FOLLOW me asking more and more questions, trying to find out what I was doing later, etc. I had to go a completely different route and instead of going home I had to go to a supermarket because I didn't want him to know where I lived. And that was one of the tamer experiences. Ughh. It makes me sad.

I am a woman who has always loved men, always had a lot of sympathy for men and men’s issues, always the one to befriend autistic guys at school and laughed with them. Now I’m in my 30s and I just … I don’t know if I’m just wiser and finally seeing it or if something is really wrong because of internet hate speech communities, but it seems so many guys are socialized to hate women, feel entitled to women, use women, refuse to see women’s perspective. I know it’s naive but I wish we could both just respect each other and be gentle but it’s like many guys just refuse to do that … feels like I’ve lost my patience and you have too.

There are good autism groups for women on Facebook. When I first figured out I was autistic I was warned to stay away from online autism groups with men and things like this are why. You don't have to make them feel better. You don't have to set yourself on fire to keep them warm.

I'm sorry about your experience. : ( Definitely do not extend charity to anyone misogynistic - it's too dangerous to deal with people that actively hates a group you're a part of. After you tell someone a behavior hurts you, they should immediately care about that and attend to that. Anyone who does not doesn't deserve to be in your life.

I brought up this debate to some guys I know was then told that it's upsetting for men to be told they're worse than a bear and causes more divide between men and women. Then told me I don't understand what feminism is.  What's funny though is that apparently this whole debate was started by some men fishing for compliments only to have everyone choose bear. 

Replacing harassment with "oh he's just autistic!" doesn't make it any less disrespectful. There's no justifying that. Protect your peace and avoid groups like that.

Damn, so many men took this whole “man vs bear” debate so personally huh

TIL 90% of us get SAed in our lives. That’s depressing and angering.

Not all autistic men or whatever and I also know great ones. To the vent tho... a female friend of mine had an autistic ex boyfriend too, who would act aggressive towards her for the littlest shit like buying the wrong tea and liking the wrong characters in fandoms. Then he said he's having autistic meltdowns and can't control his emotions... at work tho he's apparantly never screaming at his boss and only towards women. Then she broke up with him and he stalked her. Once or twice he came over to her flat, although she told him to stay away, he constantly called and texted her for weeks. I met an autistic man online and he wanted my sympathy, because he stalked a friend of his etc... he said the most fucked up things to me and expected me to have sympathy for him. I was really worried about the woman he stalked back then, like if he could start it again. I had a guy stalking me more or less, he texted my former partner and me constantly, made new accounts when blocked and texted my male partner shit like "of course nice guys never get a chance, only the assholes and women hate autistic men!" Then I knew an autistic man online, trans man tho, who talked down on me a lot and always tried to "teach" me. He also expected me to read like 200 k of his writing and talked about his own writing day and night, while I barely felt like he cares what I say. He had the same discussion in another writing group, then he called the people in there "ableist" for telling him not to get the whole attention etc, as I remember it. This kind of guys always have the "ableist" argument, when they don't get their way.

There’s a reason the movement was called Metoo. It happens to most of us. And most men think they’re one of the good ones but don’t even listen to our very real concerns. Everyone deserves grace and understanding, but we as women deserve to feel safe. It absolutely okay to call out bad behavior when it happens. I try not to do that for NTs because I know people think it’s rude, but I would explain exactly why the behavior is troublesome & why you’re uncomfortable. Then just disengage if they are still being jerks.

I hardly even see myself as being in community with cishet autistic men, at least not the ones who are active online. they tend to have soo much incel stuff going on that I don’t have anything in common with them

Misogyny is misogyny

I had similar issues with my best friend. It came from him believing himself to be inherently more logical, and believing me to be inherently biased and emotional. He was also ignorant of his own biases as a man, and the fact that anger is an emotion, and hadn't done any research into women's history, which I pointed out to him. If they're worth it they'll listen to you when you ask them *why* they believe in this cognitive dissonance and poke flaws in their logic. However, I wouldn't put yourself through all that just for a chance. It's fucking exhausting and the only reason I bothered is because he's my best friend in the world. He's completely flipped around and is 110% better now, but I made it clear that we would not remain friends if he didn't.

I swear this isn’t a humble brag, but both my partners are born male and autistic and they actively work against these stereotypes. They’re out there!! But they’re usually more socially awkward because they’re cast out from most male dominated spaces for being pro-equal rights. At least that’s my anecdotal observation. I think it takes special people (women included in this) to dismantle the misogynistic view points that are shoved down our throats our whole lives. It requires a lot of self awareness, something I think people often give autistic males a pass on citing “they are unable to” because of their disability. If autistic women can cultivate self awareness, so too can autistic men. They have to be *willing* to.

ive noticed this a lot with autistic men and just men in general honestly. its genuinely really hard to find decent men these days and it honestly really scares me

Misogyny is a helluva drug. I'd rather the bear. Much less likely to attack me! They are missing the point.

Bro it’s not that hard to be autistic but also not a mysogonist, I feel like a lot of autistic men are just used to blaming everything on that. Yeah, my autism makes me awkward and makes me seem “weird”, but that doesn’t mean I can do whatever the fuck I want and blame it on that. If someone says something like that, it isn’t just spontaneously. They think about it first, and then they say it. If they have to always say what they think, then they can rebuild their thoughts to be more empathetic. Lots of these guys think this way because some of the neurotypicals that are ableist towards them HAPPEN to be women, so they blame ALL of it on those women instead of also blaming the men an equal amount. If they weren’t autistic they’d still be creepy dickheads, but they would just be able to hide it better. It sucks how so many autistic men act like that, and I wish they could just be decent human beings.

I once had a threatening stalker online who made me really scared and my exs response was that he probably did it to others too so it wasn't a big deal. Totally invalidating my bad experience. I will never forget it.

it's cuz they're men. this is standard men behavior. they absolutely refuse to believe women.

the bear debate is outing men we shouldn’t trust with a quickness. it’s for the best. still so sad to see how it will not click for them

> I am really, really struggling with giving our autistic male counterparts grace right now. Why give grace? As a guy, I can say that we're incredibly unaware and myopic. This bear thing is a perfect example. And if guys had any self-awareness, they would be taking it as a learning opportunity. But they won't. Every woman I know is significantly more empathetic and aware of other people and how their actions affect others. Every guy I know is the opposite. Even the great guys. I guess there's just something about testosterone that makes you have a less "holistic" perception of other people. Once I realised this, and was told it by the wonderful women around me, I put a lot of effort into correcting it. Most men don't. I'm still bad at it. I know I'll never have the same social skills and ease as most of the women I know. All I can do is recognise that I'm deficient and try to not make a fool of myself. Every guy I've talked to about this topic has felt the same way.

I’m not on Facebook but what is the deal with this bear thing? Idk what it even is. I am aware of accounts by autistic men on IG and they all seem thoughtful and self-aware. That’s about the extent of my exposure though and it sounds like I ought to keep it that way?

Hypothetical question trending- If you were lost in the woods, would you choose to run into a bear or a strange man? most woman say bear.

Trying hard to not develop a bias but circumstances making it almost impossible is such a freaking hard thing to deal with and the other side doesn’t get it and refuses to.

A lot of the internet did a complete flip in the last ten years, and can't conceive of autistic men as anything but uwuw smol beans with special interests. As if they aren't some of the shittiest most invasive fucking men on the face of the planet.

Oh my god I have a friend whose husband is autistic and he sent me DIATRIBES about how tired he is of the debate because it's not HIM and he’s gay so he’s had bad experiences with men and on and on...here's a quote, >! I just don’t appreciate it when I tell you I’m on your side and then treated like I’m not because I have a differing view on tactics. I won’t be a part of mob mentality. I told you innocent people get hurt. !< so I just blocked him. I’ll probably unblock him in a few weeks because this is the first time he's done that, and I've known him for 20 years. It's probably RSD but DUDE I AM TELLING YOU TO LISTEN TO ME AND YOURE PULLING THE NOT ALL MEN CARD DO YOU REALIZE HOW YOU SOUND?!

I once commented on the Aspergers sub and happen to mention that I am engaged and I got a DM from a person (who didn’t even comment btw) tell me all sorts of nasty names and how I don’t suffer loneliness like men on the spectrum do, and to unalive myself….Blocked him immediately and refuse to participate in those subs most of the time now.