Depends, if you're married in community of goods it's as much hers as it is yours. That you do not know the keys doesn't matter legally. If you split up, you have to give half to her. She never needs to know the key, but that doesn't make it not her coins.
"Not your keys, not your coins" is a very shortsighted thing to say. I really hope this thing stops. There is only one way to own something, and that is to own it legally.
If you take your car, park it in a public garage that has a gate, is it then not your car anymore?
well, the way it works in a divorce is there's a final judgement, either a settlement between the involved parties or one arrived at by a judge. most divorces end up being settlements no matter how much vitriol there is getting there, but regardless, you reach the point where theres a judgement.
in order to get to that point, you have a listing and equitable split of the assets. im skipping over some steps here but this is the main point of a marriage that spans any length of time where you have shared community property. anyway, the order says "person a gets this" and "person b gets this"
if person b controls something person a gets, and chooses not to relinquish it to the terms of the court order, then the court has further enforcement options to choose from. it probably starts with fines but ultimately can end in imprisonment. the reason a person doesn't comply with the court order doesn't matter because there's likely proof the asset existed. the assertion by a party that it doesn't exist anymore is irrelevant and also unverifiable, so the court is unlikely to accept their attestation.
depending on multiple factors, a court has full control over whether and how long someone spends in jail for contempt of court, but the judgement never goes away. if you get thrown in jail for a year and then released, you still have to comply with the judgement. you cant liquidate the bitcoin or anything and if you do you're subject to further fines or punishments.
ive been through a divorce so i saw the whole process and understood what would happen if certain things happened or didnt happen and were not followed through. fortunately for me my divorce was pretty painless after a very short marriage.
its less a matter of guilt until proven innocent, because its not a criminal proceeding. its a very simple matter of asset acknowledgement/discovery/equitable split. during discovery, your bank statements can be scrutinized for outflows and those outflows have to be explained satisfactorily or else the other party can make a reasonable claim and the court can choose to enforce that claim.
in civil matters, the bar of proof is based on a reasonable expectation, so you can't just handwave away anything like people here like to pretent they can
If she alleges you have 1 BTC and you say "no I only have 0.02" she needs to prove you have 1 BTC. Burden of proof is on the accuser.
This is very simple to do with banks. Even simple to do if you got your bitcoin through CEX. Not so simple if you got it through a DEX. The blockchain doesn't respond to subpoenas. If you claim you only have 0.02 and she can't PROVE you had 1 BTC at the time of dissolution, then you owe her 0.01.
The source fiat cash will leave a debit or series of debits from a bank account. These outflows would need to be explained in a divorce which went through routine financial discovery. The scenario you outline, using a dex or some other means to hide assets, is a plausible one, but if discovered comes with its own possible risks, including lawyers fees and penalties if discovered.
It's pretty much always better to just be honest unless you have a source of cash that's never been in a bank account you own and that source of cash is unlikely to be subject to subpoena. Using a dex or non kyc btc often comes at a premium too.
They have to prove you have it for a court judgement to be entered. Very hard to do. Bitcoin is the apex property, actually truly private property. It will be interesting to see how things play out in the future for sure though. No Bitcoin has ever been confiscated before by law, only if the authorities find the wallet/private key have they been able to successfully seize Bitcoin.
they have to prove it to a reasonable level. its not hard. your soon to be ex-spouse and their lawyer just have to prove you probably have an asset. for example, in a bank record showing a debit and that the debit is to an exchange like coinbase, they can issue a subpeona to coinbase for records and thats all it takes.
I really think you don't understand how this all works.
If I had something and then got rid of it because I was getting divorced, it doesn't matter if I don't have it anymore. The judge is going to make me give up half the value. Whether it's the thing (bitcoin) or cash.
It's not like I can just go WOOPS no password! That's beyond stupid lmao.
Bitcoin isn't the secure end all be all cannot be confiscated, cannot be traced currency people think it is.
>If you take your car, park it in a public garage that has a gate, is it then not your car anymore?
Just question of power, if the garage owned have a lot of power and wants the car really bad it will be his car no matter how much it is yours.
Or if you the car owner have tons of power you are the owner no matter how much the garage owner wants the car.
Correct they will just say you have x amount of BTC worth x amount. She gets half the value you can keep the BTC and sell other assets as long as she gets the amount owed. This is why I non KYC acquire everything.
Exactly because even if they can't take your keys, knowing you have it could be used against you. In OP's case they don't take his BTC they just send him a bill to pay his wife they don't care how it's paid.
If say you bought and held on a KYC exchange or just buy and withdraw to cold storage. Also he told his wife. The court could hire a company like Chainalysis to track it . They would be able to see where and when you move it. You're probably thinking okay but I'll say I don't own it anymore. They will say okay when did you sell it we will reference blockchain and your tax records. That's where you are fucked because either you hid assets from court or committed tax fraud
If he never told his wife he would have a better chance at going under the radar. But that gives a starting point to reference. He could go through mixers and multiple wallets, etc. His key would be to make sure his tax returns reflect on him "selling".
It doesn't matter.
If you had it, the docorxe happens, it does not matter what happened to it.
You still owe. Plus you have to explain in great detail where it went and why.
When acquire P2P transaction still
Show in online wallet. Then I send to cold storage which also show in online.
So, they could subpoena online wallet )wasabi/electrim or whatever ? To see how much I brought and stored. But without keys they can’t be taken
From there resting place. They could put a trace through their software on block for any movement in future but it still wouldn’t prove it was you who moved it.
Also, what if the keys got stolen, the keys. Simple
As that. Send me to jail for that ouch
So many questions
It depends on who knows about your KYC purchases. If you buy BTC on Coin Base and just move it into cold storage they will be able to track that if they know about it/care. As far as losing or stolen keys I'm not entirely sure how they would rule on that. My gut instinct is they would see that a taxable event (short or long term loss) if it's over a certain dollar amount? But I'm not a CPA.
Or more likely, she feels she is piggybacking on to her partners idea of stacking BTC, so having her own would feel a sense of accomplishment and ownership..
If things don't apply to you you can just keep scrolling right?
You're the kind of guy that hates mung beans but will watch a mung bean recipe and ask them what yhe can substitute the beans with. Since they don't like beans.
Aren't you?
I’m coming to the conclusion after reading through all of this, which has been great, best to have separate stacks and have them identified as separate property in the relationship property agreement. I’m
From Nz and here you can opt
Out of the relationship property act and do fine the separate property. I think I’ll do this.
I’ve looked at all the “I lost it”
Comments and I think there is a good argument there and something me with a history of being someone with the worst memory ever, losing the keys is a very real possibility. Vica Versa for Wife.
This thread has enlightened me to several issues I hadn’t considered.
>I told her my stack is our stack, but she really wants to have her own.
“You don’t get it honey, it’s called a custodial wallet. You send the Bitcoin to the address, and I manage the private key so you don’t have to!”
The smartest thing you could do is keep separate stacks and please do not hold hers for her make her hold her own so you are not responsible. This will make any potential divorce seemless with no headaches.
Sounds like there is either a lack of trust (but only you 2 could possibly know that) here or you both should just have your own separate stacks, but should still discuss it together 1x per week/month/whatever to ensure you are both on track
edit: typo
Dollar Coast Average DCA,"DCA" stands for Dollar-Cost Averaging, which is an investment strategy that involves consistently investing a fixed amount of money at regular intervals, regardless of the price of the asset being purchased. DCA is considered a nice way to invest for several reasons.
>I told her my stack is our stack, but she really wants to have her own. Not your Keys, not your Coins. She did everything right.
Depends, if you're married in community of goods it's as much hers as it is yours. That you do not know the keys doesn't matter legally. If you split up, you have to give half to her. She never needs to know the key, but that doesn't make it not her coins. "Not your keys, not your coins" is a very shortsighted thing to say. I really hope this thing stops. There is only one way to own something, and that is to own it legally. If you take your car, park it in a public garage that has a gate, is it then not your car anymore?
Can they force you to remember your keys if you just so happen to forget, or get in a boating accident?
Yes you'll be put in jail for contempt of court if a judgement is entered and you do not comply
I’ll give her half the key.
Cute but you'll still goto jail for contempt since the court order is about value not the technical details
It’s okay I’ll split the jail too
Court leaves the chat.....
How can they judge beyond reasonable doubt that you haven't in fact lost your keys?
well, the way it works in a divorce is there's a final judgement, either a settlement between the involved parties or one arrived at by a judge. most divorces end up being settlements no matter how much vitriol there is getting there, but regardless, you reach the point where theres a judgement. in order to get to that point, you have a listing and equitable split of the assets. im skipping over some steps here but this is the main point of a marriage that spans any length of time where you have shared community property. anyway, the order says "person a gets this" and "person b gets this" if person b controls something person a gets, and chooses not to relinquish it to the terms of the court order, then the court has further enforcement options to choose from. it probably starts with fines but ultimately can end in imprisonment. the reason a person doesn't comply with the court order doesn't matter because there's likely proof the asset existed. the assertion by a party that it doesn't exist anymore is irrelevant and also unverifiable, so the court is unlikely to accept their attestation. depending on multiple factors, a court has full control over whether and how long someone spends in jail for contempt of court, but the judgement never goes away. if you get thrown in jail for a year and then released, you still have to comply with the judgement. you cant liquidate the bitcoin or anything and if you do you're subject to further fines or punishments.
Jeez, sounds like guilty until proven innocent. I hope the reason you seem to be so knowledgeable about this is not because you fell victim to it.
The outcome here assumes the asset gets on the list. if in discovery it is accepted that the bitcoins keys are lost then it shouldn't be on the list.
ive been through a divorce so i saw the whole process and understood what would happen if certain things happened or didnt happen and were not followed through. fortunately for me my divorce was pretty painless after a very short marriage. its less a matter of guilt until proven innocent, because its not a criminal proceeding. its a very simple matter of asset acknowledgement/discovery/equitable split. during discovery, your bank statements can be scrutinized for outflows and those outflows have to be explained satisfactorily or else the other party can make a reasonable claim and the court can choose to enforce that claim. in civil matters, the bar of proof is based on a reasonable expectation, so you can't just handwave away anything like people here like to pretent they can
You will be in debt for half the value the judge thinks it is worth probably.
If she alleges you have 1 BTC and you say "no I only have 0.02" she needs to prove you have 1 BTC. Burden of proof is on the accuser. This is very simple to do with banks. Even simple to do if you got your bitcoin through CEX. Not so simple if you got it through a DEX. The blockchain doesn't respond to subpoenas. If you claim you only have 0.02 and she can't PROVE you had 1 BTC at the time of dissolution, then you owe her 0.01.
The source fiat cash will leave a debit or series of debits from a bank account. These outflows would need to be explained in a divorce which went through routine financial discovery. The scenario you outline, using a dex or some other means to hide assets, is a plausible one, but if discovered comes with its own possible risks, including lawyers fees and penalties if discovered. It's pretty much always better to just be honest unless you have a source of cash that's never been in a bank account you own and that source of cash is unlikely to be subject to subpoena. Using a dex or non kyc btc often comes at a premium too.
They have to prove you have it for a court judgement to be entered. Very hard to do. Bitcoin is the apex property, actually truly private property. It will be interesting to see how things play out in the future for sure though. No Bitcoin has ever been confiscated before by law, only if the authorities find the wallet/private key have they been able to successfully seize Bitcoin.
they have to prove it to a reasonable level. its not hard. your soon to be ex-spouse and their lawyer just have to prove you probably have an asset. for example, in a bank record showing a debit and that the debit is to an exchange like coinbase, they can issue a subpeona to coinbase for records and thats all it takes.
And if the coinbase balance says 0? Because you spent it/sent it to a HW wallet?
The btc transaction exists that shows where it went. Simple financial forensics
Just because you once had it doesn't prove you still have it.
I really think you don't understand how this all works. If I had something and then got rid of it because I was getting divorced, it doesn't matter if I don't have it anymore. The judge is going to make me give up half the value. Whether it's the thing (bitcoin) or cash. It's not like I can just go WOOPS no password! That's beyond stupid lmao. Bitcoin isn't the secure end all be all cannot be confiscated, cannot be traced currency people think it is.
Doesn't matter, you'll still be in contempt and possibly in jail
And how long would that be for?
It's up to the court
But you can't comply if you have an accident
Using the reasonable standard, it's not reasonable to accept the attestation of loss.
Actually they can force you. And any civilized country will do that.
>If you take your car, park it in a public garage that has a gate, is it then not your car anymore? Just question of power, if the garage owned have a lot of power and wants the car really bad it will be his car no matter how much it is yours. Or if you the car owner have tons of power you are the owner no matter how much the garage owner wants the car.
the fact is - without the key, no one in this god damned earth can move those sats. she is in the right to want her own key.
True, no matter how married and coupled they are you will never know how things will look in future. If that happens you wish to have separate keys.
So if I’m stronger than you (power) I can use violence to extort your keys, then that means that that is my key?
Yes, if you can get the keys then its both persons keys until 1 moves them to his own wallet, then its his coins.
The goverment can give her half of everything. They are able too enforce that. But they cant enforce that half of the coins belongs too her.
Correct they will just say you have x amount of BTC worth x amount. She gets half the value you can keep the BTC and sell other assets as long as she gets the amount owed. This is why I non KYC acquire everything.
So they never know how much your stack is?
Exactly because even if they can't take your keys, knowing you have it could be used against you. In OP's case they don't take his BTC they just send him a bill to pay his wife they don't care how it's paid.
How would they know you have any btc? Sats dont have names.
If say you bought and held on a KYC exchange or just buy and withdraw to cold storage. Also he told his wife. The court could hire a company like Chainalysis to track it . They would be able to see where and when you move it. You're probably thinking okay but I'll say I don't own it anymore. They will say okay when did you sell it we will reference blockchain and your tax records. That's where you are fucked because either you hid assets from court or committed tax fraud
Coinbase/chainanalysis is surprisingly bad at following coin trails.
If he never told his wife he would have a better chance at going under the radar. But that gives a starting point to reference. He could go through mixers and multiple wallets, etc. His key would be to make sure his tax returns reflect on him "selling".
He doesn't have to sell at all. He could have some gambling losses and other purchases made, which leaves his final balance fairly small.
It doesn't matter. If you had it, the docorxe happens, it does not matter what happened to it. You still owe. Plus you have to explain in great detail where it went and why.
Right he could claim that but he would have to have it reflected in tax returns. Otherwise tax fraud. So he would have to plan ahead.
When acquire P2P transaction still Show in online wallet. Then I send to cold storage which also show in online. So, they could subpoena online wallet )wasabi/electrim or whatever ? To see how much I brought and stored. But without keys they can’t be taken From there resting place. They could put a trace through their software on block for any movement in future but it still wouldn’t prove it was you who moved it. Also, what if the keys got stolen, the keys. Simple As that. Send me to jail for that ouch So many questions
It depends on who knows about your KYC purchases. If you buy BTC on Coin Base and just move it into cold storage they will be able to track that if they know about it/care. As far as losing or stolen keys I'm not entirely sure how they would rule on that. My gut instinct is they would see that a taxable event (short or long term loss) if it's over a certain dollar amount? But I'm not a CPA.
They can enforce that, if you don’t comply you will be prosecuted.
You don't have to cooperate. And you could claim you lost your keys at any time.
No but if your wife is entitled to half you will have to pay up.
Law enforcement is a trusted third party. Blockchain is about ending the need for TTPs.
No, fuck legal. Legality is short-sighted and will go the way of the dinosaurs soon.
And if I'm not married in community of goods? That doesn't apply I assume.
OP’s wife looking to leave him
Or more likely, she feels she is piggybacking on to her partners idea of stacking BTC, so having her own would feel a sense of accomplishment and ownership..
Just seems pathetic and self centered
It's probably more that she realizes if she ever wants a divorce she can't take his BTC.
What's mine is hers and What's hers is hers
Get ready for some marriage advice from a bunch of virgins.
I’m wife’s bf, can confirm she is stacking
Wife’s other bf here. I orange-pilled her a long time ago, if you know what I mean.
Not your wife not you coins.
What does sex have to do with being married
If things don't apply to you you can just keep scrolling right? You're the kind of guy that hates mung beans but will watch a mung bean recipe and ask them what yhe can substitute the beans with. Since they don't like beans. Aren't you?
Weird reply
Still here?
Yep
And now when she orange pills her boyfriend, you'll be able to top up that dca even more!
Probably a good thing to have separate stacks in case anything goes wrong like losing keys or getting hacked and things. Reduces the potential loss.
I’m coming to the conclusion after reading through all of this, which has been great, best to have separate stacks and have them identified as separate property in the relationship property agreement. I’m From Nz and here you can opt Out of the relationship property act and do fine the separate property. I think I’ll do this. I’ve looked at all the “I lost it” Comments and I think there is a good argument there and something me with a history of being someone with the worst memory ever, losing the keys is a very real possibility. Vica Versa for Wife. This thread has enlightened me to several issues I hadn’t considered.
Glad you've learned something!
What did you do to orange pill?
Lmao your stack is hers but her stack is hers 😂😏
Our wife.
since your married, she owns half your stack anyway. she gets her own, she will own hers and half yours
Half of which stack? I don’t own anything. 🙃
Lost all of them in a freak boating accident
I also oranged pill my girl. She just bought a hardware wallet. Ready for a very bright future!
Not her keys, not her stack
I blue pilled mine. My sack is her sack
The most important orange pill of all!
>I told her my stack is our stack, but she really wants to have her own. “You don’t get it honey, it’s called a custodial wallet. You send the Bitcoin to the address, and I manage the private key so you don’t have to!”
Once you stack, you never go back.
ay, best of luck bud!
Your wife is a keeper
Your stack could be both of yours. But let her stack be her own. Make sure she knows how to safe keep her keys.
2 week old account, only makes shill posts. Seems fake af
I value my safety. This is throwaway acc.
The smartest thing you could do is keep separate stacks and please do not hold hers for her make her hold her own so you are not responsible. This will make any potential divorce seemless with no headaches.
Gl, If it doesn't work out, let me all but guarantee you, its a divorce pill if bitcoin doesn't end up working out as we expect it to.
Good woman right there.
Apes...together....strong! Congrats! This is the way.
Smart wife
I'd say stick a ring on it, but you some good choices with that too! You are winning in life
Lol. This is our stack babe, no I want my own. Women!!!!
Good luck with that
Explain your magic master, please. I've been trying for a while, but she doesn't listen to me...
Sounds like there is either a lack of trust (but only you 2 could possibly know that) here or you both should just have your own separate stacks, but should still discuss it together 1x per week/month/whatever to ensure you are both on track edit: typo
Chances are that hers is twice as big as yours
I had to blue pill on mine. Getting old.
LOL
I keep seeing dca. What's dca
Dollar Coast Average DCA,"DCA" stands for Dollar-Cost Averaging, which is an investment strategy that involves consistently investing a fixed amount of money at regular intervals, regardless of the price of the asset being purchased. DCA is considered a nice way to invest for several reasons.
**GM! AWESOME!**
I have my stack and she has hers obviously mine is much bigger 😎. I like to add that I love her very much!