I donāt believe this. These ETFs will be mostly used by people that want to access BTC in retirement accounts. I think the existing crypto community will use exchanges how they have been.
But most new adopters will probably be buying the ETF which means less growth opportunities for exchanges. Unless they actually start competing and start lowering fees.
Either way I see it as a win
Fun fact, you actually don't. When I was a drug addict in my 20's, I liquidated all of my retirement accounts in what I jokingly called my "pre-tirement". Not exactly a smart life choice, but in a way, it did help me to kick the habit
You do get hit with a stiff penalty for doing this
Do some roth conversions _to_ the roth then. Yes, each conversion needs to age 5 years. But after that (upon that 6th year), the IRS doesn't care where the money came from; You can withdraw up to each aged-conversion's amount.
Pay a bit of forex and buy the canadian one right now. get those tax free gains as early as possible and lock in your cost base BEFORE the etf release and run up
Long term capital gain tax rates are lower than ordinary income tax rates. https://www.cnbc.com/2023/11/14/how-much-you-can-make-in-2024-and-still-pay-0percent-capital-gains-taxes.html You pay less in taxes with selling BTC vs. getting paid out from IRA/401k. If Bitcoin goes parabolic the tax savings on your IRA/401k contributions are negligible.
As a couple you don't pay any gains taxes on long term holdings for up to $94,050 (married, 2024, rises with inflation rate). A Roth would not be an advantage and it has many other disadvantages for me. If it makes sense depends on your personal income situation.
For married couples no taxes if you live from long term capital gains. https://www.cnbc.com/2023/11/14/how-much-you-can-make-in-2024-and-still-pay-0percent-capital-gains-taxes.html Of course, your personal tax situation will depend if you have different forms of income in addition like pensions, rental income aso. Ask your CPA. But if you plan on long term capital gains only, then zero for up to a certain amount.
The difference between a Gold Spot ETF and Bitcoin spot ETF , they have to show the wallet that holds the Bitcoin. The wallet can be verified meaning we know how much BTC blackrock has. They must hold the physical BTC to back it up.
The gold ETF ,we just have to trust them when they say they have the gold. This is why gold has never gone anywhere. Gold storage cannot be truly trusted.
Thus the ETF is NOT a Paper Claim on BTC.
Even if they do monthly audits (I don't know if they are obligated to that at all) you can't verify how many claims are against the BTC in Blackrock's wallet. Blackrock can sign a message and verify the BTC holdings, but that doesn't show you the claims against it. The law has loopholes (e.g. naked short selling) to inflate the number of shares vs. the shares issued. In contrast, in your own wallet you know that there are no other claims against it. I agree, an ETF gives you better protection against fraud compared to an exchange. The downside is, that you can never claim your BTCs.
That doesn't matter.
There is still a 3rd party risk through embezzlement, theft, or incompetency.
They can prove they have it all they want. They can't prove it's secure.
> Thus the ETF is NOT a Paper Claim on BTC.
It is a paper claim.
It's not a replacement for owning real BTC, but an ETF definitely has its place. Would be awesome to easily set up my existing portfolio to automatically allocate a small percentage to be backed by BTC. And I would much rather own shares of an ETF than keep BTC on an exchange, even if the ETF buys its Bitcoin over an exchange.
Easier and more convenient for many who already invest with traditional finance instruments. Sometimes the only choice on some more regulated accounts.
I said rather than keeping it on an *exchange*. Owning most of your bitcoin in an actual non-custodial wallet is preferable in general. But compared to a custodial wallet on an exchange, an ETF is easier to buy/sell and is less likely to encounter issues. Plus I'm more likely to get real support in a timely manner from Fidelity than I would from Coinbase.
Remember if you buy your ETF in tax free account you donāt pay ANY capital gains tax if you sell for fiat unlike EVERY transaction with spot BTC. Selling, using in commerce etc.
Spot Bitcoin ETF will be ābloodbathā for crypto exchanges, analyst says
Spot Bitcoin ETFs could trigger unwanted consequences for crypto exchanges like Coinbase due to lower transaction fees, according to ETF analysts.
While the crypto community eagerly awaits the possible approval of a spot
exchange-traded fund (ETF) in the United States, some analysts are warning this could potentially trigger unwanted consequences for cryptocurrency exchanges.
Several industry observers have predicted that a spot BTC ETF could start trading in early 2024, in an event that, when paired with Bitcoinās upcoming block reward halving expected in April, Blockstream CEO Adam Back believes could propel BTC to $100,000.
Bitcoin proponents such as Jan3 CEO Samson Mow have said that approval of a spot Bitcoin ETF in the U.S. could even drive Bitcoin as high as $1 million in the ādays to weeksā following.
But the forecast isnāt that optimistic for centralized cryptocurrency exchanges, according to ETF Store president Nate Geraci and Bloomberg ETF analyst Eric Balchunas.
Once approved, a potential spot Bitcoin ETF in the U.S. would be a ābloodbathā for cryptocurrency exchanges, Geraci wrote on X (formerly Twitter) on Dec. 17.
According to Geraci, retail spot Bitcoin ETF buyers and sellers will benefit from underlying institutional trade execution and commissions. On the other hand, retail users of crypto exchanges will get āretail trade execution and commissions,ā Geraci noted, stressing that those will need to improve to compete with a spot Bitcoin ETF.
Because many Redditors have stopped clicking links, or at least go to the comments first.
Clicking the link often gives you a cookie dialog, then a "sign up for our newsletter" popup, then when you've dismissed both you get a paywall that covers the part of the article that isn't an autoplaying video about something unrelated. If you don't hit (or bypass) the paywall, there's also a chance the article will be filled with endless drivel like what the author had for breakfast or the weather and exterior design of their first inverviewee's house.
The comments then also often point out why the content of the article is flawed or an outright lie.
The combination of both has taught Redditors first to start by reading the comments before opening the article, and now increasingly to not even bother clicking the article link, and search for either a copy, summary, or paywall-bypass-link in the comments.
People like us will still want to send our bitcoin places and swap it and actually do stuff with it.
The ETF is just going to pull lots more bitcoin out of circulation raising the price. Thats also good for Coinbase. I dont see it affecting exchanges much at all.
These people buying the ETF largely werent ever buying from Coinbase. They are new people.
I think it could expose some/many exchanges as being fractional. If a gigantic amount of bitcoin gets sucked out of circulation it would be impossible to make retail investors whole. I think it will be like a bank run where the biggest players (Blackrock and Co.) get their money first and retail gets whatever is left. Those people who hold their bitcoin on exchange are taking a huge gamble that their ābalanceā is nothing more than an illusion. I think we are watching the wind up of a bitcoin exchange run that destroys nearly everything in its path. If Grayscale CEO is even remotely accurate in his 30 trillion inflow estimate, it will be shocking how little bitcoin is left to go around.
Yeah I agree, I caught that too. People made some hay about the guy saying the big number but he wasnāt really saying he expected it to all head into bitcoin. But like you say, 300 billion is a lot of money as well. On one hand we all want to see bitcoin rise to surpass gold but I think itās going to hurt some people along the way. Weāve seen an uptick in posts lately about utxo consolidation misery so I believe there are many people that do understand the risks of holding their bitcoin on exchanges butā¦they also donāt understand how to remove their bitcoin properly either. Hopefully itās not as bad as I think it will be but thereās still a lot of people that just donāt do the necessary research to be their own bank.
ETF are for newbies and boomers who were too intimidated to self-custody in the first place. Real Bitcoiners will keep buying the real thing (though not on Coinbase).
Fair. My understanding is that coinbase will handle some of the ETFs though. Isnāt fidelity going to rely on them? I would think that would easily offset any challenges losing customers.
I donāt know the arrangements of the custody agreements enough to speculate there. What kind of revenue can they extract from these partnerships? Blackrock is using Coinbase as well.
When is the mf'ing yes/no deadline for the ETF!?!?
Been hearing about this mf'ing ETF for like 3 yrs. Give me a date where it passes or fails. So tired of hype articles.
A number of experts, including Fred Krueger, believe that January 8-10 is the likely window for an approval of some or all pending bitcoin ETFs. After approval, actual trading could start within a few days, or at most 45 days. In short, if anything is going to happen, it's in the next couple of months, max.
Exchanges have a different business model. They can charge you for withdrawing fees, ETFs don't offer that service. Also exchanges trade 24/7/365. Stock markets close 4pm and are closed on weekends and holidays. ETFs have management expenses you pay with annual fees. Exchanges don't have such fees. Trading is run on automated machines, the cost to run and maintain these machines are identical.
LOL good luck with Binanceās solvency.
Move away ASAP and withdraw immediately
P.S. 0% are only half the story, look at the BTC price spread, thatās where companies normally hide their fees
Coinbase may end up as the Custodian for some of these ETFs, which could generate a good deal of additional revenue. Who knows how that will affect their transaction revenue, but they've been driving a lot more subscription revenue the last few quarters, so a hit to transaction revenue may not hurt as much as it might have a year or two ago, especially if it's being offset by additional revenue from the custodian fees they may earn.
So trading a highly volatile asset at exactly 4pm M-F is somehow better than trading 24/7/365? I have doubts that commissions factor into any decision making of investors.
Iām just looking forward to selling covered calls on my future Bitcoin etf holdings. Earn income against the market makers and buy more Bitcoin etf shares while I wait š¤
So exchanges will actually have to work hard to sell Bitcoin instead of earning fees off of CumRocketCoin?
How are those cummies doing? lol
š
I was so sure about Cummies. Learned a lesson there.
>t Cummies. lol. cummies.
Donāt forget Sonicobama
Donāt talk shit about by beloved coin
I donāt believe this. These ETFs will be mostly used by people that want to access BTC in retirement accounts. I think the existing crypto community will use exchanges how they have been.
But most new adopters will probably be buying the ETF which means less growth opportunities for exchanges. Unless they actually start competing and start lowering fees. Either way I see it as a win
icky dog saw aloof reply wrench water vegetable marble panicky *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Same here, Im so excited
ETFs hopefully be used by large corps, endowments and trusts as well
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Cause none of us, including me, bought inside a Roth IRA nor 401(k)
i'm going to use it to trade 0dte options on btc
You have to remember if you buy btc from an exchange you only get charged the fee once. An ETF has a annual fee.
ETF can be placed in a tax free account and you avoid paying capital gains, that beats annual fees if BTC goes parabolic.
erect pet bells roll jellyfish wild governor ring secretive gaping *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Right, I hope most of us are thinking that.
jar late ad hoc whistle station quiet hard-to-find drab gaping hungry *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Homie you need to be retirement age for wd
Fun fact, you actually don't. When I was a drug addict in my 20's, I liquidated all of my retirement accounts in what I jokingly called my "pre-tirement". Not exactly a smart life choice, but in a way, it did help me to kick the habit You do get hit with a stiff penalty for doing this
A stiff penalty heavier than the taxes saved.
Not if you sell near tops and buy near bottoms over the course of a few cycles.
"you just have to perfectly time the market"
You pay taxes on what you take out as if it was income, because when you put it there it was discounted from your income, seems fair.
There's an extra 10% penalty also. Which honestly doesn't seem very severe.
I will be.
Do some roth conversions _to_ the roth then. Yes, each conversion needs to age 5 years. But after that (upon that 6th year), the IRS doesn't care where the money came from; You can withdraw up to each aged-conversion's amount.
Ha, I have been for years! (Chillin' with a $3600 cost basis.)
lol, with bitcoin optimistic scenarios place it in 2030 at 1m, 6k will be 130k not sure how you got to 600k, letās try and be more realistic here.
How do you be realistic about 7 years in the future?
Thinking that 6k is going to become 600k is just plain fantasy, I would say BTC at 0 is more realistic than 600k
Lol
So youāre 58 now?
50. Withdrawal without penalties starts at 59 1/2.
With the way inflation is these days, I wouldn't be surprised if $600k on gets you a burger in 2030.
Pay a bit of forex and buy the canadian one right now. get those tax free gains as early as possible and lock in your cost base BEFORE the etf release and run up
Right! Purpose and Galaxi BTC ETFs have been approved and running in Canada for a few years. I own shares in both.
Itās already been in mine. GBTC.
You can buy BTC on a self managed IRA already. Just have to switch to a custodian that allows self managed
Taxes yes yes, taxes I was totally going to pay those...
Long term capital gain tax rates are lower than ordinary income tax rates. https://www.cnbc.com/2023/11/14/how-much-you-can-make-in-2024-and-still-pay-0percent-capital-gains-taxes.html You pay less in taxes with selling BTC vs. getting paid out from IRA/401k. If Bitcoin goes parabolic the tax savings on your IRA/401k contributions are negligible.
Roth IRA gains are tax free
As a couple you don't pay any gains taxes on long term holdings for up to $94,050 (married, 2024, rises with inflation rate). A Roth would not be an advantage and it has many other disadvantages for me. If it makes sense depends on your personal income situation.
Iāve never heard of no taxes on long term capital gains below $94k, are you sure this doesnāt pertain to household income?
For married couples no taxes if you live from long term capital gains. https://www.cnbc.com/2023/11/14/how-much-you-can-make-in-2024-and-still-pay-0percent-capital-gains-taxes.html Of course, your personal tax situation will depend if you have different forms of income in addition like pensions, rental income aso. Ask your CPA. But if you plan on long term capital gains only, then zero for up to a certain amount.
Assuming you wait til retirement to buy the lambo.
they're also income limited- so who gives a fuck once your like 5+ years working in most fields.
Don't forget that an etf is a paper claim on bitcoin. it's not real bitcoin.
The difference between a Gold Spot ETF and Bitcoin spot ETF , they have to show the wallet that holds the Bitcoin. The wallet can be verified meaning we know how much BTC blackrock has. They must hold the physical BTC to back it up. The gold ETF ,we just have to trust them when they say they have the gold. This is why gold has never gone anywhere. Gold storage cannot be truly trusted. Thus the ETF is NOT a Paper Claim on BTC.
Even if they do monthly audits (I don't know if they are obligated to that at all) you can't verify how many claims are against the BTC in Blackrock's wallet. Blackrock can sign a message and verify the BTC holdings, but that doesn't show you the claims against it. The law has loopholes (e.g. naked short selling) to inflate the number of shares vs. the shares issued. In contrast, in your own wallet you know that there are no other claims against it. I agree, an ETF gives you better protection against fraud compared to an exchange. The downside is, that you can never claim your BTCs.
I thought Spot referred to the ability to settle in bitcoin so I can ask for it and they will have to send it to me
Spot just mean the ETF tries to track the spot price (on exchanges), not a different price like that of future contracts.
No offence, but I believe the whole philosophy of BTC goes against what you just said.
That doesn't matter. There is still a 3rd party risk through embezzlement, theft, or incompetency. They can prove they have it all they want. They can't prove it's secure. > Thus the ETF is NOT a Paper Claim on BTC. It is a paper claim.
It's not a replacement for owning real BTC, but an ETF definitely has its place. Would be awesome to easily set up my existing portfolio to automatically allocate a small percentage to be backed by BTC. And I would much rather own shares of an ETF than keep BTC on an exchange, even if the ETF buys its Bitcoin over an exchange.
Why would you rather own an ETF than hold bitcoin directly?
Easier and more convenient for many who already invest with traditional finance instruments. Sometimes the only choice on some more regulated accounts.
Would they give you the full % increase on BTC? Does it track it, minus a brokers fee?
ETF fees are usually peanuts.
Yes, ETFs like that track the price very closely. Fees are usually something between 0,1-1,0% per year.
I said rather than keeping it on an *exchange*. Owning most of your bitcoin in an actual non-custodial wallet is preferable in general. But compared to a custodial wallet on an exchange, an ETF is easier to buy/sell and is less likely to encounter issues. Plus I'm more likely to get real support in a timely manner from Fidelity than I would from Coinbase.
Absolutely - but it also has a role.
Etf can be shorted.
So can bitcoin on unregulated exchanges
Or no fees if you do recurring buys
I've hodling BITO for a while, the sweet sweet DIVIDEND is icing on the cake of this current BTC bull run.
Remember if you buy your ETF in tax free account you donāt pay ANY capital gains tax if you sell for fiat unlike EVERY transaction with spot BTC. Selling, using in commerce etc.
* twice. You will pay a fee for every withdrawal (utxo) again when spending or just transfering it.
They'll just lower their fees on BTC to match those of ETFs, shitcoins will still be 0.6%.
ETF fees are paid annually. Exchanges is a one-off. They would be cheaper anyway, without any changes
ETFs and exchanges are for different customers
āLike coinbase!?ā Theyāre the damn custody partners. Dumbass lazy ājournalistsā
Spot Bitcoin ETF will be ābloodbathā for crypto exchanges, analyst says Spot Bitcoin ETFs could trigger unwanted consequences for crypto exchanges like Coinbase due to lower transaction fees, according to ETF analysts. While the crypto community eagerly awaits the possible approval of a spot exchange-traded fund (ETF) in the United States, some analysts are warning this could potentially trigger unwanted consequences for cryptocurrency exchanges. Several industry observers have predicted that a spot BTC ETF could start trading in early 2024, in an event that, when paired with Bitcoinās upcoming block reward halving expected in April, Blockstream CEO Adam Back believes could propel BTC to $100,000. Bitcoin proponents such as Jan3 CEO Samson Mow have said that approval of a spot Bitcoin ETF in the U.S. could even drive Bitcoin as high as $1 million in the ādays to weeksā following. But the forecast isnāt that optimistic for centralized cryptocurrency exchanges, according to ETF Store president Nate Geraci and Bloomberg ETF analyst Eric Balchunas. Once approved, a potential spot Bitcoin ETF in the U.S. would be a ābloodbathā for cryptocurrency exchanges, Geraci wrote on X (formerly Twitter) on Dec. 17. According to Geraci, retail spot Bitcoin ETF buyers and sellers will benefit from underlying institutional trade execution and commissions. On the other hand, retail users of crypto exchanges will get āretail trade execution and commissions,ā Geraci noted, stressing that those will need to improve to compete with a spot Bitcoin ETF.
Why post what was just read by literally everyone?š¤¦
I didnāt read it
Nor me. I read it here
I didn't bother reading it because I knew some helpful redditor would post it. Don't be a cock.
Because many Redditors have stopped clicking links, or at least go to the comments first. Clicking the link often gives you a cookie dialog, then a "sign up for our newsletter" popup, then when you've dismissed both you get a paywall that covers the part of the article that isn't an autoplaying video about something unrelated. If you don't hit (or bypass) the paywall, there's also a chance the article will be filled with endless drivel like what the author had for breakfast or the weather and exterior design of their first inverviewee's house. The comments then also often point out why the content of the article is flawed or an outright lie. The combination of both has taught Redditors first to start by reading the comments before opening the article, and now increasingly to not even bother clicking the article link, and search for either a copy, summary, or paywall-bypass-link in the comments.
username definitely checks out
I clicked on and after a read it I took 20 seconds to save someone the clicks
Thankyou brother.
Literally wasnt
I donāt know why but this comment made me laugh.
People like us will still want to send our bitcoin places and swap it and actually do stuff with it. The ETF is just going to pull lots more bitcoin out of circulation raising the price. Thats also good for Coinbase. I dont see it affecting exchanges much at all. These people buying the ETF largely werent ever buying from Coinbase. They are new people.
I think it could expose some/many exchanges as being fractional. If a gigantic amount of bitcoin gets sucked out of circulation it would be impossible to make retail investors whole. I think it will be like a bank run where the biggest players (Blackrock and Co.) get their money first and retail gets whatever is left. Those people who hold their bitcoin on exchange are taking a huge gamble that their ābalanceā is nothing more than an illusion. I think we are watching the wind up of a bitcoin exchange run that destroys nearly everything in its path. If Grayscale CEO is even remotely accurate in his 30 trillion inflow estimate, it will be shocking how little bitcoin is left to go around.
I agree. But hes not predicting 30T inflow, hes just saying thats the amount of wealth under advisors in the USA. 1% of that is 300B though.
Yeah I agree, I caught that too. People made some hay about the guy saying the big number but he wasnāt really saying he expected it to all head into bitcoin. But like you say, 300 billion is a lot of money as well. On one hand we all want to see bitcoin rise to surpass gold but I think itās going to hurt some people along the way. Weāve seen an uptick in posts lately about utxo consolidation misery so I believe there are many people that do understand the risks of holding their bitcoin on exchanges butā¦they also donāt understand how to remove their bitcoin properly either. Hopefully itās not as bad as I think it will be but thereās still a lot of people that just donāt do the necessary research to be their own bank.
ETF are for newbies and boomers who were too intimidated to self-custody in the first place. Real Bitcoiners will keep buying the real thing (though not on Coinbase).
Why not on Coinbase?
Most maxis buy on bitcoin-only exchanges. I use Strike and Swan.
Hmm, I wonder who is doing custody for all these ETFs
Coinbase
Not sure why you were downvoted, itās been common knowledge for awhile.
Right? Am I missing something here? Wonāt coinbase benefit?
They could possibly lose some customers and have trouble gaining new ones if they can access spot BTC through their tradfi platforms, 401k, IRA, etc.
Fair. My understanding is that coinbase will handle some of the ETFs though. Isnāt fidelity going to rely on them? I would think that would easily offset any challenges losing customers.
I donāt know the arrangements of the custody agreements enough to speculate there. What kind of revenue can they extract from these partnerships? Blackrock is using Coinbase as well.
When is the mf'ing yes/no deadline for the ETF!?!? Been hearing about this mf'ing ETF for like 3 yrs. Give me a date where it passes or fails. So tired of hype articles.
A number of experts, including Fred Krueger, believe that January 8-10 is the likely window for an approval of some or all pending bitcoin ETFs. After approval, actual trading could start within a few days, or at most 45 days. In short, if anything is going to happen, it's in the next couple of months, max.
1,2, Freddy's comin' for you...
I prefer the DMX version
Or it's gonna expire and a new application is going to blueball us for another 2 years. That's also an option, isn't it?
The blackrock application donāt expire till January 2024. If that helps and the other companyās too, only ark expires in December
By Jan 10th, 2024 (or sooner). That is per the SEC defined and required securities filing process with deadlines.
Great for Coinbase
Exchanges have a different business model. They can charge you for withdrawing fees, ETFs don't offer that service. Also exchanges trade 24/7/365. Stock markets close 4pm and are closed on weekends and holidays. ETFs have management expenses you pay with annual fees. Exchanges don't have such fees. Trading is run on automated machines, the cost to run and maintain these machines are identical.
If you want to own BTC you will need exchanges. ETF just trades IOUs, you never own BTC.
Analysts also sold WMD Iraq
You guys arenāt using exchanges with 0 converting fees?
Which ones ?
Binance
LOL good luck with Binanceās solvency. Move away ASAP and withdraw immediately P.S. 0% are only half the story, look at the BTC price spread, thatās where companies normally hide their fees
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Look at the spread.
OIC. could I borrow the crystal ball please?
Good
Coinbase may end up as the Custodian for some of these ETFs, which could generate a good deal of additional revenue. Who knows how that will affect their transaction revenue, but they've been driving a lot more subscription revenue the last few quarters, so a hit to transaction revenue may not hurt as much as it might have a year or two ago, especially if it's being offset by additional revenue from the custodian fees they may earn.
So trading a highly volatile asset at exactly 4pm M-F is somehow better than trading 24/7/365? I have doubts that commissions factor into any decision making of investors.
Surely the hedge funds will be charging good commission? That will surely put the cost about similar, no?
Canāt wait for etfs to be used to sell more paper bitcoin!
Some of us actually want to own the asset not some paper iou
Iām just looking forward to selling covered calls on my future Bitcoin etf holdings. Earn income against the market makers and buy more Bitcoin etf shares while I wait š¤
Anyone have an opinion on employers 401 match being changed with BTC?
Paper Bitcoiners pumping price could just as easily spur demand for those supplying real Bitcoin...