Apparently, even that is verboten by US labour laws, by the same rule that doesn’t allow the Canadian ratio rule. Competition for any given job is not to be restricted in any way.
Because the union agrees to it in a collective bargaining agreement. Canadians playing on the team as a requirement could also be legally enforced through collective bargaining.
No it wouldn’t. Federal law would supercede, and apply to, any union agreement. The law is why it wasn’t applied to US teams last time, and would be again.
No investor in the US is going to apply for a CFL franchise when the UFL is there and has so much more potential.
And the fact that St Louis already has a football team in the UFL
It could…
Biggest thing is once the NCAA season started, attendance would drop - fast. CFL learnt this in the 90’s expansion.
The STL team would play an extremely front loaded schedule, 1-2 home games after September.
Would have to have in hand a decent regional TV deal. State of 6 million, but imagine Kansas City rules the state now.
Likely no.
Possible - if done right.
I’d put STL as one of the top 5 US cities for possible CFL expansion. Should do STL, Oakland and SD as a division, LA’s gilted lovers.
I think you mean jilted. Gilted is almost the opposite.
STL (2.8M) and KC (2.4M) metros are fairly close in size. The metro GDPs are pretty similar, too. Interestingly, I don't think either city has a "Division 1" college team. I'm not sure how KC evolved to have MLB and NFL while STL has no major 4 team.
Be on the small side. Imagine outside the metro area ticket sales would be limited - people save there money for a Seahawks game. MLS in Seattle is well supported I believe.
Mind you, call yourself the Spokana Starbuckers you could be financially set. Bezos could buy a team just to have their home games broadcast on Prime for 3x what TSN pays for a game and it still would be better value than their TNF deal.
I'd still have a St Louis team as a probationary member of the CFL. Try them out for 10 games. Touchdown Pacific/Atlantic as your mid season championship game. Then have the Canadian teams play 8 more games with a normal Grey Cup.
In-season tournaments aren't unprecedented. We saw it with the NBA recently for example. If they still get 30k per game then they can graduate to a fall schedule. Obviously if both Canadian and American networks shell out all kinds of dough for the broadcasting rights that wouldn't be necessary.
Not if they were active in the community during the off-season. Have players guest coaching local high school football programs.
I will admit that front end loading the home games is better than what they did in the 90's though. Your way could work obviously if the owner was willing to do what past CFL owners have done ie) Bob Wetenhall etc. and just absorb losses when necessary.
LOL - St Louis wouldn't give the CFL the time of day, especially when the new UFL is there. Have you heard of the St Louis Battlehawks Why on earth would they want to watch 3 down football when they can watch 4 down football with the Battlehawks
You didn't read what the OP said obviously. The whole premise was that the UFL would fail one day. My response was that it probably wouldn't fail if you read up. This current statement was part of a conversation with someone else and you are taking it out of context.
You didn't read what the OP said obviously. The whole premise was that the UFL would fail one day. My response was that it probably wouldn't fail if you read up. This current statement was part of a conversation with someone else and you are taking it out of context.
The XFL and USFL just merged, that takes care of the Feb to June football season. There is no room for another league that plays it's games June to November and 3 down football is not what it was 30 years ago. And I doubt a CFL size field would fit in a US stadium
STL is one of the possible 5 US cities for the UFL expansion. Fans that love football will watch UFL from Feb to June and then the NCAA/NFL from August to January
The problem with US expansion is the import rule.
You can't force a US-based team to use a certain number of Canadians. So right from the get go the playing field is not level.
Right now it's an issue. That's why the owners are trying to get rid of the ratio.
[https://cfjctoday.com/2022/05/20/canadian-players-push-back-on-new-ratio-question-why-cfl-is-trying-to-eliminate-nationals/#:\~:text=KAMLOOPS%20%E2%80%94%20The%20CFL%20has%20been,national%20players%20to%20be%20starters](https://cfjctoday.com/2022/05/20/canadian-players-push-back-on-new-ratio-question-why-cfl-is-trying-to-eliminate-nationals/#:~:text=KAMLOOPS%20%E2%80%94%20The%20CFL%20has%20been,national%20players%20to%20be%20starters).
The question is would it work in ST Louis after the UFL folded. Not would it work today. By the time the CFL considers American expansion again it will have gotten rid of the ratio entirely.
Yeah, that is not going to happen. The CFLPA will never cave in on that point.
I think getting a stable 10th team in the Maritimes should be the priority.
You didn't read what the OP said obviously. The whole premise was that the UFL would fail one day. My response was that it probably wouldn't fail if you read up. This current statement was part of a conversation with someone else and you are taking it out of context.
Collective bargaining doesn't trump labour law. A US based business can't discriminate against American employees.
In fact, right now the UFL can't bring in Canadian players unless they are dual citizens or have residency. Otherwise they're not able to get a work visa for them.
I mean that ask for a bail out came out of one of the most significant societal and economic events of the last 100 years which caused the league to lose it's main revenue stream (of which many businesses asked for and received similar bail outs). If you haven't noticed things have changed a lot since 2020.
I think the point really is if I’m a prospective owner I’m asking some very difficult questions for the league to answer.
I wouldn’t agree the CFL in 2024 is in much better shape than in 2019. Attendance is still down from pre-pandemic and in a multi decade downtrend, they can’t figure out the giant market that is Toronto, both Alberta teams are questioning their financial viability. They have issues that other pro leagues don’t, so even entertaining the idea of expansion is extremely bizarre to me.
I also wouldn't say it's in worse shape than it was in 2019. I personally hate all these "Let's expand to the US" threads, but if the right opportunity comes up to expand to QC or the Maritimes there's been no better or worse time, the CFL needs to strike whenever it has the opportunity.
If the CFL ever wants to try the States I think they should stick to smaller northern markets, e.g. Syracuse NY.
I don't think they'll ever get a proper "foothold" with any larger markets, even if that market was abandoned by the NFL. The CFL tried Baltimore and all that did was get Baltimore an NFL team back.
I agree with this (though I don't support it). Any city with NFL aspirations that succeeds with a CFL team is going to use it as leverage against the NFL, just like Baltimore did.
Maybe, but also full of owners who would be more than happy to use a successful CFL market as leverage against their city. That's how the Ravens ended up in Baltimore after all.
Eeeehhh... In the hundred plus year history of both leagues this is one example.
There will always be a team looking for a new stadium and willing to play the relocation card to get it, I just don't think having a successful CFL franchise in another city is quite the power move you seem to.
Maybe not, but it was also basically the only successful CFL franchise, and the only one of the lot that had previously had an NFL team.
I don't support American expansion anyway because the roster imbalances, but my personal, worthless opinion is it wouldn't be worth the risk
San Antonio churned the gate until the college season started.
Baltimore won. Winning solves a lot of problems.
I remember reading a study back in stats class - they wanted to see in % of African American athletes impacted ticket sales, if that effect had any correlation to city demographics.
LSS - none. In any sport.
There was only one factor about a team that translated to attendance - winning.
The US has the NFL, NCAA and the new UFL. CFL expansion into the US will never work. Besides a CFL/XFL merger was abandoned last year due to the fact that the XFL plays it's games Feb to June and the CFL June to November.
Fall football in the US is NFL/NCAA, the CFL will never change it's schedule and Americans are not going to watch another league at that time of year
Some of you guys are clueless, you have no idea that St Louis already has a team in the UFL, all you had to do was google it
The Dome has retractable seats on the end zone areas (and sidelines). I think it could fit a 140-yard field at minimum.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e9/Edwardjonesinterior.jpg
According to Farhan the CFL considered moving the field to 100 yards in 2022.
[https://twitter.com/FarhanLaljiTSN/status/1504895437727182850](https://twitter.com/FarhanLaljiTSN/status/1504895437727182850)
End zones used to be 25 yards until BC place was constructed. Then they went to 20. If an owner plus broadcasting network gave them enough money they would shorten the field faster than you could say "whaaaaa"
Wait. Seriously? Memphis used 33” yards? The entire mid-90s CFLUSA experiment was a joke. The only reason Baltimore was moderately successful at the gate was they were still pissed about getting screwed by the NFL over the Colts.
I wouldn’t say that’s the only reason, but it certainly was a strong contributing factor. They also did well because they built a solid team loaded with CFL veteran coaches and players. So while other teams struggled to adapt to Canadian rules, Baltimore put a superior, entertaining, winning product out on the field. Best way for a sports franchise to sell tickets to their games is giving the fans confidence that they’ll be watching their team win, which is a lot more fun than watching your team lose.
Not even all Premier League pitches are the same size:
https://preview.redd.it/g5jhz0ykwujc1.jpeg?width=1164&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=4254d14fef873135c0a452b66630ba0f9b583436
Sure, but the Laws of the Game contemplate that.
https://preview.redd.it/nbqm36ur0vjc1.jpeg?width=1284&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=834fa908047d89cc0e11287721f127f1062b0fed
I’m from the area. I’ll admit, it’s always been a fantasy of mine that the Battlehawks do well enough that even if this league goes under, the Hawks would somehow work out some kind of deal to continue its existence as a CFL team.
Sure, expansion into the US was tried before with not much success, but a lot has changed in the 30 years since that happened
American labour laws would make the CFL a two-tiered league.
The only reason it didn't in the 90s was because the American expansion teams were stupid.
True statement - the advantage for USA expansion teams is that there are only 200 slots in Canada for American players - so there are good players with CFL experience that got cut and ended up playing for the USA based teams. Baltimore picked up a bunch of those players and had CFL coaches also who knew the game. They didn't get a guy like Pepper Rogers who hated the CFL game and didn't understand the game.
I enjoyed it as a BC fan. The only ones that didn’t had sour grapes. Imagine Canada having 109 Grey Cup victories and America having one, then the Canadian fans are griping about the one.
Canadian player rules would get tossed, Is the stadium field size big enough? KC would have everyone’s attention and college players get paid more than CFL players these days.
CFL USA wont work
We have XFL / USFL / UFL etc to prove this
Jilted NFL cities give a short pop but quickly tune back into NFL games on tv since vast majority cant afford tickets anyways so where teams play is irrelevant
The UFL only exists because the other 2 leagues died and couldnt stand on their own...
I have always liked see alternate teams + jerseys + etc but they just dont draw fans to watch games
Doubtful. Travel costs for one thing. But also if the Battlehawks fold, that would probably scare off any would-be CFL owner. And if the Battlehawks don't fold, there's probably not enough room in the market for both.
Most posters had no idea that St Louis already has the Battlehawks. No way that a CFL team would move in and play games from June to November.
Besides the UFL is one tier above the CFL
No. Even with the anti-NFL bias, the city still draws big ratings for NFL games, especially KC. Once college football season rolls around, it'll be easy to forget about the CFL team. Plus if the UFL folds, I'm pretty sure the local swill be gun shy at that point. Of course the CFL has been around for decades, but I wouldn't expect Battlehawks type crowds if spring football fails.
Nah I like the “Canadian” footbal league just how it is ! Me and my dad travel Canada watching the riders. We ain’t going to Missouri I’ll tell you that much 🤣
Yeah, St. Louis seems to have a lot of the positives that fueled Baltimore to success in the 1990s.
However, the CFL never did figure out how to level the playing field when the Canadian teams had to start so many Canadians and the American teams didn't.
So many of the US teams were poorly managed, but Baltimore was on its way to perpetually dominating the league.
I don't know if there is a rule the CFL could implement to make St Louis field a lot of Canadians, but I've been toying with the idea of requiring 21 players with at least 8 seasons of 3-down football experience rather than 21 Canadian nationals. This would include high school and college years. Most Americans would not qualify for that unless they have a really long CFL career. But most Canadians would. The question would be if a US court would strike it down.
I agree with you - Good CFL coaching with a good CFL personel guy and no Ratio - USA teams would dominate in short order. You were correct in what you said. In 1995 three Canadian teams out of eight had winning records. Only Shreveport south of the border had a losing record.
I don't see the UFL folding. If they did it could work but it could also be a dumpster fire. It depends on who owns the team, who the owner hires and how flexible the CFL is willing to be. Having said all of that the CFL said no to St Louis in 2017 and they would most likely say no again unless they came with a 10-20 million expansion fee, a 6 million dollar TV deal and some national (American) sponsorships.
It would work.
Just as it did with the CFL's Baltimore Stallions.
St.Louis would attract large enough home crowds to the point where the NFL would step back into the market. Essentially, booting the CFL out of town.
St.Louis has a large, dedicated football following. I have no doubt a CFL team would work well.
St.Louis could potentially follow up on the Stallions' success in the US. Baltimore was averaging well over 30,000 fans per game until 1996, when the NFL returned. With the right ownership and marketing, anything is possible.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baltimore_Stallions
Yeah I'm well aware of American expansion. One out of five successful franchises is awful. The day the CFL expands into the USA again is the day I stop watching, and I've been a fan for 40 years.
Its the CANADIAN Football League. Leave it as its supposed to be
By that logic, I guess I can’t watch the NBA anymore, as it has a Toronto team in the NATIONAL Basketball Association. Or U.S. teams in the NATIONAL Hockey League, and so forth.
The NBA doesnt have a rule forcing a certain number of Canadians to play bud.
It stops being the CFL the second that rule is gone.
So no, it doesnt work.
If the CFL does away with its Canadian rules I think some American expansions could probably be considered. That being said I don’t think that will happen but it’s a fun thought experiment.
As always, the answer is “it’s technically possible, but too many things would have to happen first, many of which are at the bottom of nearly everyone’s priority list”.
Would St.Louis support a team? Most likely.
Would they be able to fit a CFL field in the dome? Probably not.
There may be a different field that could, but is it pro level and get the same support as in the dome.
After that issue is US teams cannot enforce the ratio and thus would have a competiive edge.
Add in only being in 1 market is not enough to do much for a national US TV deal, could maybe get a regional deal in the midwest area.
+ any benefit to putting a team in St.Louis would be lost when the NFL decides to expand back to St.Louis killing the team just like Baltimore in the 90s.
For the CFL the downside far outweighs any benefits.
For US expansion to happen something equivalent to the ratio rule would need to be imposed on the US Teams. The only thing I can think of is if the US Teams are actually Farm teams for NFL teams.
I suppose this seemingless endless chatter about US expansion is a sign that the CFL has attracted new fans who were not paying attention or born during the disasterous attempt to put CFL teams in US markets in the 1990s. So that's good?
However, US expansion is NEVER going to be viable for a myriad of reasons. US labour laws being one (although for those "fans" who detest the ratio rule their dream would come true of watching all American players on CFL rosters). Another major reason why US expansion won't work is the TV contract with TSN. Something nobody ever considers.
Currently the rights deal with TSN is worth about $50M and it is splt 10 ways (9 teams, and the league). That's just enough to cover the salary cap for each team. But add a US based team and that pie now gets cut into 11 slices, while the US team does little to add value to the TV contract. TSN ratings will not go up because a team is based in St. Louis, or Baltimor, or Portland (other than maybe a novelty bump for the first few games featuring expansion teams). US based expansion teams are not going to suddenly bring in an extra $5M per team from ESPN or some other US broadcaster.
For those of you who weren't around (or weren't paying attention) in the 80s and 90s, the TV situation was very different back then. In 1987 the CFL had to operate and fund it's own "Canadian Football Network", just to get games on TV. The league lost significant money operating that network and folded it after the 1990 season. CTV had dropped CFL from it's schedule in 1986 and the rights fees from CBC and TSN were peanuts back then compared to what TSN pays today as the exclusive CFL broadcaster in Canada.
TL/dr: US expansion would cost Canadian teams TV money therefore it's financially unviable.
Actually the TSN deal gets sliced into 11 pieces already. 9 CFL clubs, CFL HQ, and Genius Sports all get a bit of it. However, the TSN money would still increase because there would be 9 more games. The CFL USA deal would be worth more money because they would have an American team involved. You are correct that the CFL would not go to America unless there was enough money being paid out. It's unknowable what the CFL will be getting in future negotiations. They already get 1 million from CBS Sport Network. It wouldn't be a stretch to get 5 million one day if they had a team.
Rules, regulations, and serious suggestions aside,
1. As a Battlehawks fan I think St. Louis only has one love, which is the Battlehawks. If the Battlehawks folded I think there would be any replacement.
2. While Spring leagues have a track record of failing fast, the UFL is trying not to have that happen, as evident by the XFL-USFL merger
Is there a stadium in St. Louis large enough to place a CFL field and hold a large crowd.. That's an extra 30 yards or ground that they'll need and it doesn't look like the dome can cover that.
CFL needs to focus on making sure all of their stadiums are updated and played on grass before they worry about crapshoot expansion teams
They gambled big and lost big time, it ain't worth the hassle.
American teams cannot be forced to play Canadian players which would affect the rules.
Make it so they have to play players from Missouri.
Apparently, even that is verboten by US labour laws, by the same rule that doesn’t allow the Canadian ratio rule. Competition for any given job is not to be restricted in any way.
I think the MLS has some requirement for a local player
Genuinely asking, how does this work for stuff like age restrictions in the NFL? Does that not count as a restriction?
Because the union agrees to it in a collective bargaining agreement. Canadians playing on the team as a requirement could also be legally enforced through collective bargaining.
No it wouldn’t. Federal law would supercede, and apply to, any union agreement. The law is why it wasn’t applied to US teams last time, and would be again.
The Illinois side of the St. Louis metro area typically has good football talent and is tied much closer to the city than much of Missouri.
No investor in the US is going to apply for a CFL franchise when the UFL is there and has so much more potential. And the fact that St Louis already has a football team in the UFL
Read what OP said....
Still not the same. Not even close to the same
Limits it. Maybe quota from Missouri and half of them gotta be white dudes 🤣🤷🏼♂️ /s
I read your statement then hit the "/s"
Imagine having the best players play. Crazy.
It could… Biggest thing is once the NCAA season started, attendance would drop - fast. CFL learnt this in the 90’s expansion. The STL team would play an extremely front loaded schedule, 1-2 home games after September. Would have to have in hand a decent regional TV deal. State of 6 million, but imagine Kansas City rules the state now. Likely no. Possible - if done right. I’d put STL as one of the top 5 US cities for possible CFL expansion. Should do STL, Oakland and SD as a division, LA’s gilted lovers.
I think you mean jilted. Gilted is almost the opposite. STL (2.8M) and KC (2.4M) metros are fairly close in size. The metro GDPs are pretty similar, too. Interestingly, I don't think either city has a "Division 1" college team. I'm not sure how KC evolved to have MLB and NFL while STL has no major 4 team.
Cardinals… Blues?
Oops. Brain fart. A BIG one.
No you were kind of right. I’m a Hawks fan, the Blues ain’t major league
Mizzou is about half-way between KC and STL.
Spokane??
Be on the small side. Imagine outside the metro area ticket sales would be limited - people save there money for a Seahawks game. MLS in Seattle is well supported I believe. Mind you, call yourself the Spokana Starbuckers you could be financially set. Bezos could buy a team just to have their home games broadcast on Prime for 3x what TSN pays for a game and it still would be better value than their TNF deal.
Omaha would be better than Spokane. Heck if your gonna put a team in Spokane you might as well put one in Kamloops.
I'd still have a St Louis team as a probationary member of the CFL. Try them out for 10 games. Touchdown Pacific/Atlantic as your mid season championship game. Then have the Canadian teams play 8 more games with a normal Grey Cup. In-season tournaments aren't unprecedented. We saw it with the NBA recently for example. If they still get 30k per game then they can graduate to a fall schedule. Obviously if both Canadian and American networks shell out all kinds of dough for the broadcasting rights that wouldn't be necessary.
You gotta give them a full season, maybe 2 or 3. A probationary half season where they disappear would kill the franchise in the womb
Not if they were active in the community during the off-season. Have players guest coaching local high school football programs. I will admit that front end loading the home games is better than what they did in the 90's though. Your way could work obviously if the owner was willing to do what past CFL owners have done ie) Bob Wetenhall etc. and just absorb losses when necessary.
LOL - St Louis wouldn't give the CFL the time of day, especially when the new UFL is there. Have you heard of the St Louis Battlehawks Why on earth would they want to watch 3 down football when they can watch 4 down football with the Battlehawks
You didn't read what the OP said obviously. The whole premise was that the UFL would fail one day. My response was that it probably wouldn't fail if you read up. This current statement was part of a conversation with someone else and you are taking it out of context.
You do know that St Louis has a team in the new UFL?
You didn't read what the OP said obviously. The whole premise was that the UFL would fail one day. My response was that it probably wouldn't fail if you read up. This current statement was part of a conversation with someone else and you are taking it out of context.
The XFL and USFL just merged, that takes care of the Feb to June football season. There is no room for another league that plays it's games June to November and 3 down football is not what it was 30 years ago. And I doubt a CFL size field would fit in a US stadium
STL is one of the possible 5 US cities for the UFL expansion. Fans that love football will watch UFL from Feb to June and then the NCAA/NFL from August to January
Why is it possible when they have the UFL team the St Louis Battlehawks?
Read OP's post...
Rearlly? so what do you do with the Battlehawks who averaged 35,000 last season?
The problem with US expansion is the import rule. You can't force a US-based team to use a certain number of Canadians. So right from the get go the playing field is not level.
Right now it's an issue. That's why the owners are trying to get rid of the ratio. [https://cfjctoday.com/2022/05/20/canadian-players-push-back-on-new-ratio-question-why-cfl-is-trying-to-eliminate-nationals/#:\~:text=KAMLOOPS%20%E2%80%94%20The%20CFL%20has%20been,national%20players%20to%20be%20starters](https://cfjctoday.com/2022/05/20/canadian-players-push-back-on-new-ratio-question-why-cfl-is-trying-to-eliminate-nationals/#:~:text=KAMLOOPS%20%E2%80%94%20The%20CFL%20has%20been,national%20players%20to%20be%20starters). The question is would it work in ST Louis after the UFL folded. Not would it work today. By the time the CFL considers American expansion again it will have gotten rid of the ratio entirely.
Yeah, that is not going to happen. The CFLPA will never cave in on that point. I think getting a stable 10th team in the Maritimes should be the priority.
The UFL didn't fold, the St Louis Batlehawks are getting close to training camp
You didn't read what the OP said obviously. The whole premise was that the UFL would fail one day. My response was that it probably wouldn't fail if you read up. This current statement was part of a conversation with someone else and you are taking it out of context.
Yeah you can. Collective bargaining solves a lot of "legal" issues on that front.
Collective bargaining doesn't trump labour law. A US based business can't discriminate against American employees. In fact, right now the UFL can't bring in Canadian players unless they are dual citizens or have residency. Otherwise they're not able to get a work visa for them.
No. Fix the problems inside of Canada first.
I think it’s so laughable that the league will ask the feds for a bailout one moment and then talk up expansion the next.
I mean that ask for a bail out came out of one of the most significant societal and economic events of the last 100 years which caused the league to lose it's main revenue stream (of which many businesses asked for and received similar bail outs). If you haven't noticed things have changed a lot since 2020.
I think the point really is if I’m a prospective owner I’m asking some very difficult questions for the league to answer. I wouldn’t agree the CFL in 2024 is in much better shape than in 2019. Attendance is still down from pre-pandemic and in a multi decade downtrend, they can’t figure out the giant market that is Toronto, both Alberta teams are questioning their financial viability. They have issues that other pro leagues don’t, so even entertaining the idea of expansion is extremely bizarre to me.
I also wouldn't say it's in worse shape than it was in 2019. I personally hate all these "Let's expand to the US" threads, but if the right opportunity comes up to expand to QC or the Maritimes there's been no better or worse time, the CFL needs to strike whenever it has the opportunity.
If the CFL ever wants to try the States I think they should stick to smaller northern markets, e.g. Syracuse NY. I don't think they'll ever get a proper "foothold" with any larger markets, even if that market was abandoned by the NFL. The CFL tried Baltimore and all that did was get Baltimore an NFL team back.
And a Grey Cup.
I agree with this (though I don't support it). Any city with NFL aspirations that succeeds with a CFL team is going to use it as leverage against the NFL, just like Baltimore did.
NFL is full now. Someday there will be a 40 team league with a euro division but that's 15 years off minimum.
Maybe, but also full of owners who would be more than happy to use a successful CFL market as leverage against their city. That's how the Ravens ended up in Baltimore after all.
Eeeehhh... In the hundred plus year history of both leagues this is one example. There will always be a team looking for a new stadium and willing to play the relocation card to get it, I just don't think having a successful CFL franchise in another city is quite the power move you seem to.
Maybe not, but it was also basically the only successful CFL franchise, and the only one of the lot that had previously had an NFL team. I don't support American expansion anyway because the roster imbalances, but my personal, worthless opinion is it wouldn't be worth the risk
San Antonio churned the gate until the college season started. Baltimore won. Winning solves a lot of problems. I remember reading a study back in stats class - they wanted to see in % of African American athletes impacted ticket sales, if that effect had any correlation to city demographics. LSS - none. In any sport. There was only one factor about a team that translated to attendance - winning.
The US has the NFL, NCAA and the new UFL. CFL expansion into the US will never work. Besides a CFL/XFL merger was abandoned last year due to the fact that the XFL plays it's games Feb to June and the CFL June to November. Fall football in the US is NFL/NCAA, the CFL will never change it's schedule and Americans are not going to watch another league at that time of year Some of you guys are clueless, you have no idea that St Louis already has a team in the UFL, all you had to do was google it
I said "if" (to the idea of expanding to the US in the first place), not "they should".....
If they ever try to expand into the USA again, I'll stop watching
Downvote this guy, but he's got my vote
Is the Empire Football League still in business?
what stadium in st louis can accommodate the larger playing surface?
The Dome has retractable seats on the end zone areas (and sidelines). I think it could fit a 140-yard field at minimum. https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e9/Edwardjonesinterior.jpg
Still not long enough. https://preview.redd.it/0koffmgo4tjc1.jpeg?width=1284&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=1f46653f8be1bb7d652a185c8ff56fb27769b60b
That didn't stop them last time, or the Argos right now...
4 yards short at BMO Field. The mid-90s US experiment was a joke. Curved corners filled with artificial turf in Memphis.
2 yards short at BMO. 18 yards.
I’ll take your word for it. I was going off the BMO Field Wikipedia page. 😂
No worries!! Either way it's too short!!
According to Farhan the CFL considered moving the field to 100 yards in 2022. [https://twitter.com/FarhanLaljiTSN/status/1504895437727182850](https://twitter.com/FarhanLaljiTSN/status/1504895437727182850) End zones used to be 25 yards until BC place was constructed. Then they went to 20. If an owner plus broadcasting network gave them enough money they would shorten the field faster than you could say "whaaaaa"
Times 2 end zones = 4 yards short total.
I suppose, though I thought he was talking about endzones specifically.
And 33 inch “yards.”
Wait. Seriously? Memphis used 33” yards? The entire mid-90s CFLUSA experiment was a joke. The only reason Baltimore was moderately successful at the gate was they were still pissed about getting screwed by the NFL over the Colts.
I wouldn’t say that’s the only reason, but it certainly was a strong contributing factor. They also did well because they built a solid team loaded with CFL veteran coaches and players. So while other teams struggled to adapt to Canadian rules, Baltimore put a superior, entertaining, winning product out on the field. Best way for a sports franchise to sell tickets to their games is giving the fans confidence that they’ll be watching their team win, which is a lot more fun than watching your team lose.
Yes, they did. That’s how they crammed a CFL-ish looking field into the Liberty Bowl, by creating an optical illusion.
Or Montreal lol
Not even all Premier League pitches are the same size: https://preview.redd.it/g5jhz0ykwujc1.jpeg?width=1164&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=4254d14fef873135c0a452b66630ba0f9b583436
Sure, but the Laws of the Game contemplate that. https://preview.redd.it/nbqm36ur0vjc1.jpeg?width=1284&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=834fa908047d89cc0e11287721f127f1062b0fed
but why would they accommodate a CFL team as well as the UFL team? makes no sense
for money
I’m from the area. I’ll admit, it’s always been a fantasy of mine that the Battlehawks do well enough that even if this league goes under, the Hawks would somehow work out some kind of deal to continue its existence as a CFL team. Sure, expansion into the US was tried before with not much success, but a lot has changed in the 30 years since that happened
American labour laws would make the CFL a two-tiered league. The only reason it didn't in the 90s was because the American expansion teams were stupid.
Except for Baltimore - they knew how to make the most of the situation.
Tracy Ham, Mike Pringle, Don Matthews and a monster crazy o-line.
They were stacked for sure - and made sure they had plenty of CFL experience on the roster.
True statement - the advantage for USA expansion teams is that there are only 200 slots in Canada for American players - so there are good players with CFL experience that got cut and ended up playing for the USA based teams. Baltimore picked up a bunch of those players and had CFL coaches also who knew the game. They didn't get a guy like Pepper Rogers who hated the CFL game and didn't understand the game.
Have you read 'Baltimore Stallions - brief brilliant history' by Ron Snyder? It's really good on all this.
I need to read that one -
u/HomerSPC this might be our quickest counter reset ever
If I had a nickel for every time I reset the counter, I could buy Twitter.
I would guess an NFL team in Canada is more likely than a CFL team in USA
Can we stop with all those stupid posts about the cfl going to the states. It isn’t gunna happen.
I know and it just makes me sad. Truly sad. I know you guys don't want CFL teams in the states but I enjoyed the 2 year run with the Stallions.
I enjoyed it as a BC fan. The only ones that didn’t had sour grapes. Imagine Canada having 109 Grey Cup victories and America having one, then the Canadian fans are griping about the one.
Especially with the UFL now
Canadian player rules would get tossed, Is the stadium field size big enough? KC would have everyone’s attention and college players get paid more than CFL players these days.
If you want 12 teams (and I do). You add Halifax, Quebec City and Spokane. It has to be a US City that will NEVER rate an NFL team.
After the St. Louis lawsuit against the NFL i would put St Louis on the top of places that will never ever see and NFL team.
but St Louis already has a team in the UFL - the Battlehawks
So it's as simple as that? the CFL just adds the 3 teams, builds the stadiums, and runs the teams? LOL
St. Louis is never getting the NFL back after the lawsuit. There is nothing to worry about there.
No but they have the UFL Battlehawks and it looks like a pretty roster with some ex-NFLers
Why Spokane over Omaha. Omaha is much more viable.
CFL USA wont work We have XFL / USFL / UFL etc to prove this Jilted NFL cities give a short pop but quickly tune back into NFL games on tv since vast majority cant afford tickets anyways so where teams play is irrelevant
but they don't play games at the time of year. The UFL will be successful because they play March to June, with no overlap with the NFL or NCAA
The UFL only exists because the other 2 leagues died and couldnt stand on their own... I have always liked see alternate teams + jerseys + etc but they just dont draw fans to watch games
DA LOU
Doubtful. Travel costs for one thing. But also if the Battlehawks fold, that would probably scare off any would-be CFL owner. And if the Battlehawks don't fold, there's probably not enough room in the market for both.
Most posters had no idea that St Louis already has the Battlehawks. No way that a CFL team would move in and play games from June to November. Besides the UFL is one tier above the CFL
Don't get me started
Yes. St. Louis will do whatever they can to give the finger to the NFL
No.
Nope
No. Even with the anti-NFL bias, the city still draws big ratings for NFL games, especially KC. Once college football season rolls around, it'll be easy to forget about the CFL team. Plus if the UFL folds, I'm pretty sure the local swill be gun shy at that point. Of course the CFL has been around for decades, but I wouldn't expect Battlehawks type crowds if spring football fails.
Nah I like the “Canadian” footbal league just how it is ! Me and my dad travel Canada watching the riders. We ain’t going to Missouri I’ll tell you that much 🤣
Yeah, St. Louis seems to have a lot of the positives that fueled Baltimore to success in the 1990s. However, the CFL never did figure out how to level the playing field when the Canadian teams had to start so many Canadians and the American teams didn't. So many of the US teams were poorly managed, but Baltimore was on its way to perpetually dominating the league. I don't know if there is a rule the CFL could implement to make St Louis field a lot of Canadians, but I've been toying with the idea of requiring 21 players with at least 8 seasons of 3-down football experience rather than 21 Canadian nationals. This would include high school and college years. Most Americans would not qualify for that unless they have a really long CFL career. But most Canadians would. The question would be if a US court would strike it down.
I agree with you - Good CFL coaching with a good CFL personel guy and no Ratio - USA teams would dominate in short order. You were correct in what you said. In 1995 three Canadian teams out of eight had winning records. Only Shreveport south of the border had a losing record.
I don't see the UFL folding. If they did it could work but it could also be a dumpster fire. It depends on who owns the team, who the owner hires and how flexible the CFL is willing to be. Having said all of that the CFL said no to St Louis in 2017 and they would most likely say no again unless they came with a 10-20 million expansion fee, a 6 million dollar TV deal and some national (American) sponsorships.
the CFL said no to St Louis? never heard that, can you provide a link
No, last I checked St. Louis was in the United States.
Idk if St Louis is ready for the CFL. Have you considered DA LOU instead?
It would work. Just as it did with the CFL's Baltimore Stallions. St.Louis would attract large enough home crowds to the point where the NFL would step back into the market. Essentially, booting the CFL out of town. St.Louis has a large, dedicated football following. I have no doubt a CFL team would work well.
but St Louis has the Battlehawks. A CFL team would have zero support especially if there are two teams there
That entire league is doomed for failure
Lmao no it wouldn't
St.Louis could potentially follow up on the Stallions' success in the US. Baltimore was averaging well over 30,000 fans per game until 1996, when the NFL returned. With the right ownership and marketing, anything is possible. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baltimore_Stallions
Yeah I'm well aware of American expansion. One out of five successful franchises is awful. The day the CFL expands into the USA again is the day I stop watching, and I've been a fan for 40 years. Its the CANADIAN Football League. Leave it as its supposed to be
By that logic, I guess I can’t watch the NBA anymore, as it has a Toronto team in the NATIONAL Basketball Association. Or U.S. teams in the NATIONAL Hockey League, and so forth.
The NBA doesnt have a rule forcing a certain number of Canadians to play bud. It stops being the CFL the second that rule is gone. So no, it doesnt work.
I have no problem with the Canadian ratio rule. It gives Canadian teams extra incentive to overcome the big bad Americans.
Yes
No
 If the CFL does away with its Canadian rules I think some American expansions could probably be considered. That being said I don’t think that will happen but it’s a fun thought experiment.
The day the CFL expands into the USA again is the day I stop watching
As always, the answer is “it’s technically possible, but too many things would have to happen first, many of which are at the bottom of nearly everyone’s priority list”.
Would St.Louis support a team? Most likely. Would they be able to fit a CFL field in the dome? Probably not. There may be a different field that could, but is it pro level and get the same support as in the dome. After that issue is US teams cannot enforce the ratio and thus would have a competiive edge. Add in only being in 1 market is not enough to do much for a national US TV deal, could maybe get a regional deal in the midwest area. + any benefit to putting a team in St.Louis would be lost when the NFL decides to expand back to St.Louis killing the team just like Baltimore in the 90s. For the CFL the downside far outweighs any benefits.
St Louis already supports a team The UFL Battlehawks. Why would they need another one?
No
For US expansion to happen something equivalent to the ratio rule would need to be imposed on the US Teams. The only thing I can think of is if the US Teams are actually Farm teams for NFL teams.
I’d love to have ST Louis part of the fam
Maybe
Lmao no
No
No. I’d imagine they’re trying to get another NFL team somehow.
I suppose this seemingless endless chatter about US expansion is a sign that the CFL has attracted new fans who were not paying attention or born during the disasterous attempt to put CFL teams in US markets in the 1990s. So that's good? However, US expansion is NEVER going to be viable for a myriad of reasons. US labour laws being one (although for those "fans" who detest the ratio rule their dream would come true of watching all American players on CFL rosters). Another major reason why US expansion won't work is the TV contract with TSN. Something nobody ever considers. Currently the rights deal with TSN is worth about $50M and it is splt 10 ways (9 teams, and the league). That's just enough to cover the salary cap for each team. But add a US based team and that pie now gets cut into 11 slices, while the US team does little to add value to the TV contract. TSN ratings will not go up because a team is based in St. Louis, or Baltimor, or Portland (other than maybe a novelty bump for the first few games featuring expansion teams). US based expansion teams are not going to suddenly bring in an extra $5M per team from ESPN or some other US broadcaster. For those of you who weren't around (or weren't paying attention) in the 80s and 90s, the TV situation was very different back then. In 1987 the CFL had to operate and fund it's own "Canadian Football Network", just to get games on TV. The league lost significant money operating that network and folded it after the 1990 season. CTV had dropped CFL from it's schedule in 1986 and the rights fees from CBC and TSN were peanuts back then compared to what TSN pays today as the exclusive CFL broadcaster in Canada. TL/dr: US expansion would cost Canadian teams TV money therefore it's financially unviable.
Actually the TSN deal gets sliced into 11 pieces already. 9 CFL clubs, CFL HQ, and Genius Sports all get a bit of it. However, the TSN money would still increase because there would be 9 more games. The CFL USA deal would be worth more money because they would have an American team involved. You are correct that the CFL would not go to America unless there was enough money being paid out. It's unknowable what the CFL will be getting in future negotiations. They already get 1 million from CBS Sport Network. It wouldn't be a stretch to get 5 million one day if they had a team.
No they have the ufl battle hawks.
No.
CFL in the U.S. Been there, done that, didn't work
Rules, regulations, and serious suggestions aside, 1. As a Battlehawks fan I think St. Louis only has one love, which is the Battlehawks. If the Battlehawks folded I think there would be any replacement. 2. While Spring leagues have a track record of failing fast, the UFL is trying not to have that happen, as evident by the XFL-USFL merger
This is the Canadian football league not the NFL and it would probably make a lot of fans angry
Is there a stadium in St. Louis large enough to place a CFL field and hold a large crowd.. That's an extra 30 yards or ground that they'll need and it doesn't look like the dome can cover that.
No
Lawrence Woods, All-Star KR/PR and St. Louis County native, would be the face of the franchise!
CFL needs to focus on making sure all of their stadiums are updated and played on grass before they worry about crapshoot expansion teams They gambled big and lost big time, it ain't worth the hassle.