His market was predominantly left leaning people. He turned X into a right wing echo chamber. He basically pissed off a large percentage of his customer base.
As MJ said, “republicans buy sneakers too” or in this case “most of our customers are democrats”
It's even worse than that though, it'd be like trying to spite your regular, sneaker buying, customers to try and sell sneakers to people who are largely idealogically opposed to the idea of wearing sneakers and mostly only ever want to wear thongs because they especially like the slappy sound they make when you're in a hurry.
Which is why there are many people that make it a priority of theirs to be on subs like r/Australian . Ensuring an echo chamber doesn't occur.
X doesn't even try.
It’s not the same, Reddit allows censoring and banning by sub mods, these people are usually extremely left leaning and are more prone to banning people on the right, Twitter doesn’t have that.
like the r/Australian sub? The difference is, anyone can become a mod of a site on Reddit. Even you and your bigoted views if you want. Moderation on X? lol
Because left wing people aren't saying as misogynistic or bigoted or hateful things like the right wing people are.
They are simply saying things you don't agree with.
And the fact you can't see that explains everything.
And cancelling their order for more of them too. They planned on replacing their entire fleet with them but then realized how dumb that was when "going green" got too expensive...
My recollection is Hertz dumped Tesla’s because once in an accident the repair costs are extraordinarily high resulting in increased vehicle writeoffs.
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The more Elon becomes an online right wing troll the more owning a Tesla becomes a political statement rather than being the almost counter-culture signal it used to be. Basically going from punk to establishment.
In the early days, yes. They were the quintessential “disruptor”, complete outsiders to the car maket, completely different sales set up and doing electric cars in a completely new way. But now they’ve become victims of their own success and with Musk’s celebrity status clearly gone to his head they’ve lost a chunk of what made them appealing to begin with.
They were certainly pioneering but I’ve always seen them as a wealthy persons or tech bro car which doesn’t scream counter cultural to me. I mean the iPod turned the music industry on its head but it was never punk.
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Yeah i don’t buy any of this…
The majority don’t care about his political opinions.
Just look at VW: Basically the biggest bunch of evil liars in history, most indebted company on earth, millions still line up to buy from them every year because they just want the product.
I'll keep calling it Twitter out of spite haha I've never even used it but calling anything X just sounds like a math question and I ain't doing fucken algebra to please a billionaire in this day and age... Fuck his feelings, he can afford new ones.
It's because Musk is a giant child and thinks the letter X is cool. It literally isn't any deeper than that. Musk was holding onto the domain X.com for over 20 years before it replaced Twitter.
Fun fact, the Tesla models are: S 3 X Y.
Agreed, other than fellow keyboard warriors. Personally i couldn’t care less what he bangs on about. If the tech, the infrastructure and the value stack up then it’s a good thing. Yes, i follow politics very closely, but couldn’t care less what a random driver/pedestrian thinks about the vehicle i drive.
It's not about making a political statement.
It's about the perceived attention the owner of the vehicle manufacturer that I (theoretically) drive garners from others.
Would you have bought Hugo Boss 100 years ago, if you knew they kitted out and profited off the Nazis?
Value judgments can include morals, you know?
Just because you drive a Tesla that doesn’t mean your political beliefs align with Elon musk. And what cultist mentality do you have to have to think that anyway? “ he drives a Tesla he must be a fascist” like really? And are you actually comparing Elon to the nazis? Plus the comment I replied to originally said driving a Tesla is making a political statement, which is ridiculous.
Um, none of your response applies to my post.
I didn't compare Elon to Nazis, and I didn't call Tesla drivers fascists.
I don't buy from Nestle because of their human rights abuses, and immoral acts they have undertaken to make a sale in African nations.
Would you make the same complaint if I had spoken about Nestle?
No, you wouldn't have, so your response says heaps.
You brought up the nazis which isn’t even remotely relevant to what we’re talking about. And how is Elon shit posting on twitter relevant to nestle or nazi germany? It isn’t at all. Anything to push your political agenda…
The supercharger network isn't really a reason in Aus. It offers a little extra but Tesla never really expanded greatly in regional areas which is where it matters.
Yeah, tbh the superchargers are largely a bonus to have around because they took so long to try and develop a mature network that other companies started beating them to the punch, like chargefox and RAC in WA
Not correct. Further rollout of new sites not currently in progress is on hold globally while they replan.
It’s not signalling the end, that’s just an over dramatisation
Yes, the point here is that one of the reasons people have given for buying a Tesla (in the past) is that the Tesla Supercharger network will eventually be rolled out in Australia.
Without the benefit of the Supercharger network, that's one less reason to buy a "minimalist" (or basic, depending on your view point) Tesla.
Well it’s not like the network just disappeared, or that Tesla will never expand it again, expansion costs have just been increasing in the current inflationary environment and Tesla yields little economic benefit now that nearly every EV can use its network.
The slightly higher fees for non-Tesla EVs will never pay for the huge capital costs of a charging network like that. People just need to manage expectations tbh
Yes, but it was given as a *big* benefit, the possibility of how big the Supercharger network will be.
You're right that it doesn't mean it definitely won't be extended at some later point, but it does make it less likely.
The other point to make here, is that much of the reason Tesla investors have come on board, are for reasons that have turned out to not exactly eventuate.
- Cybertruck details upon release are far down on what was initially announced a few years ago.
- fsd still isn't here, despite being sold as being available in 2017 (or so, iirc)
- supercharger network was to be rolled out everywhere as big as it is in the US.
I'm sure I could mention the Tesla Semi too, but I cant remember the actual announcement details on that.
Agree wholeheartedly that Musk has oversold and underdelivered. It’s a shame Tesla haven’t achieved what was hoped, but they’ve had a decent attempt and were going to run out of steam eventually if conditions ever soured, like they are now.
Big issue might be the lack of competition making them lazy - perhaps Tesla originally thought other manufacturers would be attempting their own versions of all Tesla’s goals, but no one seems to be trying anymore besides some of the Chinese brands (whose sales are comparatively still very low outside of China).
And continually pissing around with pricing at the detriment of existing owners.
They paved the way for everyone else but they aren't now doing anything that much more innovative than anyone else so why suffer the quirks and features of a bizarre boss.
>pissing around with pricing at the detriment of existing owners.
Yeah this I never understood.
No one who buys any other grand bitches as much as Tesla owners do about price changes.
I couldn't tell you what the fuck Skoda, Volkswagen, LDV, Ford, Foton, or any other brand did when I drove out the driveway.
Tesla owners? Seem to watch the prices like they're a stock price and their cars are the shares.
Probably because other manufacturers don't tend to drop prices as dramatically as Tesla do for existing, or even brand new models, and instantly haemorrhaging $10 or 20k off their cars value.
Also, an EV is predominantly bought for financial reasons and so EV owners view their cars as financial calculations, not driving enjoyment. So they're wired to look at costs minutely in order to make the argument stack up.
>instantly haemorrhaging $10 or 20k off their cars value.
Yeah but that's really only an issue if you buy cars as an investment.
You buy cars because you use them, not to hold value.
It's essentially an electric Camry, not a Countach.
"It's essentially an electric Camry, not a Countach..."
That was beautiful...
If there was an award for the best sentence on Reddit everyday then this one has my vote
You're missing the point. If you instantly drop someone in to substantial, unplanned negative equity then it's an issue for any one.
And Tesla has more repeat buyers than most (https://www.google.com/amp/s/insideevs.com/news/690805/tesla-had-auto-industry-highest-repeat-buyer-rate-h1-2023/amp/) and consistently shitting on your loyal base isn't a good long term plan
>If you instantly drop someone in to substantial, unplanned negative equity then it's an issue for any one.
But that's only negative if they're using it as a positively geared asset.
But how is it unplanned if it's known that Tesla will randomly, and rather often, do this?
It’s not a binary scenario. Just because it’s not positively geared doesn’t mean you’re not expecting some retention in value. When I buy a car I’m not expecting to throw it away for $0.
No that's bullshit.
They're not hobbies where people accept a total cost outlay due to the emotional benefit.
And almost no one is buying an EV due to an emotional decision
Oh for sure. I think most people are aware of it and willing to cop it. Having the brand then go and knock another 20k off the value because the stock is overpriced, and the CEO is an idiot doing his best to keep it up and somehow destroy it at the same time, hurts
No one is buying an EV for financial reasons.
If you were budget conscious you'd simply buy a second hand ice vehicle for $5-10k.
Tesla's are luxury vehicles with a show off factor.
Of course they are - you're ignoring the equivalency or opportunity factor.
They're going to spend the money on a new car anyway, or due to the FBT benefits, fuel, servicing etc they are choosing EVs over the equivalently priced, or desired, ICE vehicle, or at least taking the opportunity to get one at a perceived much lower cost.
If the FBT benefits were removed tomorrow most EV sales would tank given spending $60 to 80k only makes sense for most people because the economics make it make sense.
What's the compelling reason most people buy an EV? EV sale have gone sky high since the FBT benefits came in.
Yep only remotely comparable to ICE vehicles in cost due to FBT concessions.
Still a terrible financial decision due to the abysmal second hand value of EVs, especially Chinese EVs.
They are disposable cars with absolutely terrible repairability and therefore terrible resale value.
If they can't think long term enough to understand the loss they will take at the end of the lease compared to reliable ICE brand then that's a bit ignorant .
Because they bought the car for attention/status symbolism and need everyone to know they are above them... They get upset when this changes...
It's like those people that care about having an iPhone or a Gucci hand bag
Each time I see news of them aggressively dropping prices i feel like they're just shooting themselves in the foot. Existing customers who missed out feel hard done by and potential customers will now wait longer before pulling the trigger.
Feels like dark times are ahead for Tesla.
My take on this is that Elon is the master of start up.
He is able to take a harebrained idea, and, no matter how unlikely, make it work.
It then takes an entirely different skillset for the CEO to manage the business through the next decade of its life - he's not cut out for that, and should have handed over the reins years ago.
Example - the cyber truck should not exist in it's current form in any way at all...
I don't think he's even particularly good at start ups either, he's just got enough money to repeatedly throw at the wall that one inevitably sticks.
And too many yes men around him, the cyber truck was certainly a dumb move, I hear Tesla had a backup plan for a decent one, but he said I want the dumb one?
Space X, the teledirectory that gave him his first fortune, his AI robot.
It's also not about just "making" the ute with a battery - it's that what, 10 years ago, when EVs were not profitable and not on anyone's radar, he managed to manufacture millions of them, before the competition really caught up.
Everything he's touching right now is going to shit, he just needs to move on, and find the next harebrained idea.
He failed with X, he needs his next one.
He’s a con artist, self driving robo taxis. The Tesla semi, full self driving, the disaster that is the cyber truck, the roadster, twitter, hyperloop, whatever that Vegas loop became, arnt we suppose to be on mars by now from his 2016 time lines? He should be slammed for securities fraud and thrown in jail.
Dosnt have to be, vote with your wallet and don’t buy his shit, you’re essentially enabling this bullshit if you buy a Tesla. He could have just shut the fuck up and I bet more people would have bought a Tesla, fuck I probably would have. I went with the KIA EV purely because it won’t support this asshole.
no, it doesn't have to be, and I do vote with my wallet, but lets not pretend people that vote with their wallet are in the majority here. Case in point being Colesworth....
Dude it’s a car brand not a food shop. A big one every decade purchase is a lot easier to say fuck that guy and buy any other of the dozen or so of brands that make EVs. Colesworth is a different type of argument that’s more complex, Tesla would be a brand of frozen peas in this analogy. Don’t like Tesla brand peas or think the CEO is a fuckwitt, get another brand.
I feel they needed a smaller cheaper vehicle to stop the Chinese getting established and a large SUV with more conventional styling for the school pick up/soccer mum. BYD is going to the other extreme and releasing multiple of every vehicle type which also makes little sense to me
The S, X, the 3 and the Y are made in Fremont California my guy, out of the 17 Tesla factories only 2 are in China and they only produce the 3 and the Y.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Tesla_factories
They're not though. They're sold internationally. I have two friends with '23 plated Teslas, built in Shanghai. If I were to buy one, it would be made in China. For those playing at home, none of us reside in China.
What exactly is the point you're trying to make here?
"They can't match China on cost" > literally manufactures in China
"Lol they only sell the Chinese made ones in China" > literally sell them outside of China.
"Yeah but that's only their volume models, what about these ones?" > ???
I think they'd be fine if they kept innovating in terms of design, features, or models. But they didn't!
Once an aspirational car they are now the Camry, but made by an asshole
I reckon the exterior of the 3 and S have aged extremely well. The interior not so much just looks cheap and the big screen is standard on plenty of cars now so any wow factor is gone
I never really understood why they don’t update their models. I know they make minor adjustments here and there but they are so minors would have to take a toll eventually.
To be fair to them though they are still the only profitable EV producer around. Everyone else is losing massive money on every EV they produce. So they must be doing something right.
Hmmmm.
I want to buy an EV. Tesla's more expensive and meh but that's ok. They're cool! I want to be cool!
Hey what? They're not cool? The models are really old? Then why would Musk fire the design team for new models?
But the Supercharger network is awesome. Can we all agree on that? Bullshit - don't tell me he fired the Supercharger team responsible for most of the reasons you'd buy a shitty over priced Tesla... Damn. He did.
But the cool kids still think he's the hottest thing round. That's never gonna change... Buggar. Now they think he's a 'legacy of the authoritarian white apartheid era of South Africa'.
This is way too confusing. Maybe I'll just buy a runout BYD Atto for way less.
Atto and dolphin still way overpriced imo, yeah the run out makes it acceptable but we are talking more than 1 year old demos. At full price a $51k atto won’t sway many from a $58k model 3.
Its the risk of building a cult of personality around a product. Both can be forgiven for being offbeat up to a point. But to be mainstream they both need broad appeal and to be seen as mostly reliable. Unfortunately, over time the products have proven to be as shitty as the CEO.
People happily drive brands with the sordid history of BMW, Mercedes, VAG, Toyota, Ford and every Chinese maker. But they’re so upset by fElon saying speech free of govt censorship is a fundamental tenet of a liberal democracy that they won’t buy a Tesla?
>BMW, Mercedes, VAG,
True, the Nazi links are pretty apparent there.
>Toyota
What has Toyota really done that's so bad.
>Ford
Ahh yes, profits over people with the likes of the Pinto.
Even look at the current F150, seems like a fundamentally unsafe hunk of garbage.
>every Chinese maker
Volvo? Lotus? Polestar? MG? LDV? BYD? Curious what they all have done.
>they’re so upset by fElon saying speech free of govt censorship is a fundamental tenet of a liberal democracy
What does this have to do with the cars?
I'm still not convinced that's not a marketing tactic hey.
I mean, Toyota is investing *Billions* into battery tech
https://pressroom.toyota.com/toyota-supercharges-north-carolina-battery-plant-with-new-8-billion-investment/
https://global.toyota/en/newsroom/corporate/37964997.html
https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2022/08/31/business/toyota-ev-battery-plant
https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/toyota-lg-energy-sign-battery-supply-agreement-power-evs-2023-10-04/
https://global.toyota/en/newsroom/corporate/28913488.html
https://asia.nikkei.com/techAsia/Toyota-bets-on-solid-state-as-CATL-eyes-Thailand
I think Toyota is just using all their tools to try and delay until they can just come in with a BEV Camry that costs $50,000 and does 1,000km on a charge with a 5 minute recharge.
They know what they need to do, they're just delaying until they have market dominance
Toyota were betting big on their hydrogen cars and stubbornly refused to push their EV efforts. Most sane people would know hydrogen tech is not the way to go due to cost and safety. They are just trying to play catch-up now.
Has nothing to do with the cars.
But no Teslarati cared about fElon’s conduct when he was committing securities fraud (“funding secured” and the annual promise of level 5 autonomy, “1 million Robotaxis” “your car will be an appreciating asset”). They didn’t seem to care about sometimes abysmal build quality either. His unforgivable sin was to buy Twitter.
He campaigns against censorship laws but adheres to them locally because he has no choice - they can just turn it off at will. He disregards any attempt to impose extraterritorial censorship. It’s not fElon’s job to overturn Turkish law. The suggestion that he’s trying to help
Erdogan is absurd. And the hypocrites are the ones saying he should have pushed back harder against Erdogan but bent over deeper for the equally repressive Biden regime.
It’s over in terms of the exponential growth that the share market was clearly expecting with the insane valuation of the company (at one point being more than every other car company combined).
Tesla was essentially a gamble that more expensive processes intended for sports cars would eventually become cheaper for standard cars, and that simply hasn’t happened.
Cylinder batteries remain more expensive that flat. Giga casting remains more expensive than stamping and robot welding.
Tesla can’t make the model 2 because its primary investment tech won’t be able to make them cheap enough.
Have electricity prices gone anywhere but up..?
Has the cost of living somehow affected people's ability to purchase a brand new fucking car!?!
Has people's ability to care for the environment been outweighed by the complete disregard and inaction of our elected officials??
Should any of us care that Tesla is losing sales when they produce such poor quality cars..?
Are any of us even remotely responsible for any of this bullshit..?
Are there actual questions we should be asking right now instead of this nonsense?
Agree with your points, but just to chip in on this one:
> Have electricity prices gone anywhere but up..?
A lot of Tesla owners I know have already got solar panels installed. In fact this is usually a very big factor when buying a Tesla or EV in general - it mmeans free fuel as long as they don't drive crazy distances every day.
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His market was predominantly left leaning people. He turned X into a right wing echo chamber. He basically pissed off a large percentage of his customer base. As MJ said, “republicans buy sneakers too” or in this case “most of our customers are democrats”
It's even worse than that though, it'd be like trying to spite your regular, sneaker buying, customers to try and sell sneakers to people who are largely idealogically opposed to the idea of wearing sneakers and mostly only ever want to wear thongs because they especially like the slappy sound they make when you're in a hurry.
Also some tesla owners acting like they are in a cult doesn't help, not the farce of the cybertruck
as someone who loves loud cars, and probably wont get rid of my non daily ice cars till theyre pried from my hands i kinda love that analogy
Jordan was no man's fool when he said that
Right wing echo chamber? Lol
Are you saying it's not that?
It is, just like Reddit is a left wing echo chamber. I love when each side thinks they are the superior side
Aymen
Which is why there are many people that make it a priority of theirs to be on subs like r/Australian . Ensuring an echo chamber doesn't occur. X doesn't even try.
It’s not the same, Reddit allows censoring and banning by sub mods, these people are usually extremely left leaning and are more prone to banning people on the right, Twitter doesn’t have that.
like the r/Australian sub? The difference is, anyone can become a mod of a site on Reddit. Even you and your bigoted views if you want. Moderation on X? lol
Reddit took down the sub for an American president before an election, they had right wing moderators.
Sounds like you need to rally the troops on twitter then /s
It’s not that, lots of left wing people on there, they aren’t blocking and censoring left wing people.
Because left wing people aren't saying as misogynistic or bigoted or hateful things like the right wing people are. They are simply saying things you don't agree with. And the fact you can't see that explains everything.
Oh yes because the worse anyone can do is be misogynistic! Lol The left wing threaten violence constantly, they’re unhinged.
who are 'the left' in your example here? Give some examples.
Left wing people on Twitter?
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All Tesla's we get in Australia are made in China CHAMP
It's almost impossible to get a large global manufacturered product like a car without having its production involve some pretty nasty practises
Hertz selling basically all of their Tesla's was a massive blow
And cancelling their order for more of them too. They planned on replacing their entire fleet with them but then realized how dumb that was when "going green" got too expensive...
Hertz bought during peak EV sale costs and only have themselves to blame With battery costs plummeting of course EV costs were going to come down
My recollection is Hertz dumped Tesla’s because once in an accident the repair costs are extraordinarily high resulting in increased vehicle writeoffs.
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The more Elon becomes an online right wing troll the more owning a Tesla becomes a political statement rather than being the almost counter-culture signal it used to be. Basically going from punk to establishment.
Teslas anti-establishment? That’s funny.
In the early days, yes. They were the quintessential “disruptor”, complete outsiders to the car maket, completely different sales set up and doing electric cars in a completely new way. But now they’ve become victims of their own success and with Musk’s celebrity status clearly gone to his head they’ve lost a chunk of what made them appealing to begin with.
They were certainly pioneering but I’ve always seen them as a wealthy persons or tech bro car which doesn’t scream counter cultural to me. I mean the iPod turned the music industry on its head but it was never punk.
Tech bro is inherently counter cultural though, just not in the way you mean
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Yeah i don’t buy any of this… The majority don’t care about his political opinions. Just look at VW: Basically the biggest bunch of evil liars in history, most indebted company on earth, millions still line up to buy from them every year because they just want the product.
Exactly, but this is reddit, everything has to be left vs right
I doubt most people care or even know what musk is saying on twitter.
Gotta say, I've never used twitter because I am really bad at expressing anything meaningful in under 150 lett
Well he rebranded it to X and most people didn't even notice and keep calling it Twitter, like yourself
I'll keep calling it Twitter out of spite haha I've never even used it but calling anything X just sounds like a math question and I ain't doing fucken algebra to please a billionaire in this day and age... Fuck his feelings, he can afford new ones.
It's because Musk is a giant child and thinks the letter X is cool. It literally isn't any deeper than that. Musk was holding onto the domain X.com for over 20 years before it replaced Twitter. Fun fact, the Tesla models are: S 3 X Y.
TIL!
Agreed, other than fellow keyboard warriors. Personally i couldn’t care less what he bangs on about. If the tech, the infrastructure and the value stack up then it’s a good thing. Yes, i follow politics very closely, but couldn’t care less what a random driver/pedestrian thinks about the vehicle i drive.
Exactly. Like who buys a car to make a political statement?
It's not about making a political statement. It's about the perceived attention the owner of the vehicle manufacturer that I (theoretically) drive garners from others. Would you have bought Hugo Boss 100 years ago, if you knew they kitted out and profited off the Nazis? Value judgments can include morals, you know?
Just because you drive a Tesla that doesn’t mean your political beliefs align with Elon musk. And what cultist mentality do you have to have to think that anyway? “ he drives a Tesla he must be a fascist” like really? And are you actually comparing Elon to the nazis? Plus the comment I replied to originally said driving a Tesla is making a political statement, which is ridiculous.
Um, none of your response applies to my post. I didn't compare Elon to Nazis, and I didn't call Tesla drivers fascists. I don't buy from Nestle because of their human rights abuses, and immoral acts they have undertaken to make a sale in African nations. Would you make the same complaint if I had spoken about Nestle? No, you wouldn't have, so your response says heaps.
You brought up the nazis which isn’t even remotely relevant to what we’re talking about. And how is Elon shit posting on twitter relevant to nestle or nazi germany? It isn’t at all. Anything to push your political agenda…
You don't know how examples work, do you? Dw, it's not worth the effort explaining this to someone who has the comprehension skills you do.
That’s a weird way to concede the argument but thanks for not wasting anymore of my time
Plus they have signalled the end of supercharger roll-out in Australia. Zero reason to buy one compared to any other ev.
The supercharger network isn't really a reason in Aus. It offers a little extra but Tesla never really expanded greatly in regional areas which is where it matters.
Yeah, tbh the superchargers are largely a bonus to have around because they took so long to try and develop a mature network that other companies started beating them to the punch, like chargefox and RAC in WA
Huh? Most regions in my state have a supercharger covering a reasonable range
Not correct. Further rollout of new sites not currently in progress is on hold globally while they replan. It’s not signalling the end, that’s just an over dramatisation
It’s not a guarantee but it’s certainly a signal of a problem so people are less confident. And rightly so in my opinion.
Which other brand has a supercharger network?
All other cars use the other branded DC chargers - Evie, Chargefox, etc.
Tesla can use those too?
Yes
Yes, the point here is that one of the reasons people have given for buying a Tesla (in the past) is that the Tesla Supercharger network will eventually be rolled out in Australia. Without the benefit of the Supercharger network, that's one less reason to buy a "minimalist" (or basic, depending on your view point) Tesla.
Well it’s not like the network just disappeared, or that Tesla will never expand it again, expansion costs have just been increasing in the current inflationary environment and Tesla yields little economic benefit now that nearly every EV can use its network. The slightly higher fees for non-Tesla EVs will never pay for the huge capital costs of a charging network like that. People just need to manage expectations tbh
Yes, but it was given as a *big* benefit, the possibility of how big the Supercharger network will be. You're right that it doesn't mean it definitely won't be extended at some later point, but it does make it less likely. The other point to make here, is that much of the reason Tesla investors have come on board, are for reasons that have turned out to not exactly eventuate. - Cybertruck details upon release are far down on what was initially announced a few years ago. - fsd still isn't here, despite being sold as being available in 2017 (or so, iirc) - supercharger network was to be rolled out everywhere as big as it is in the US. I'm sure I could mention the Tesla Semi too, but I cant remember the actual announcement details on that.
Agree wholeheartedly that Musk has oversold and underdelivered. It’s a shame Tesla haven’t achieved what was hoped, but they’ve had a decent attempt and were going to run out of steam eventually if conditions ever soured, like they are now. Big issue might be the lack of competition making them lazy - perhaps Tesla originally thought other manufacturers would be attempting their own versions of all Tesla’s goals, but no one seems to be trying anymore besides some of the Chinese brands (whose sales are comparatively still very low outside of China).
And continually pissing around with pricing at the detriment of existing owners. They paved the way for everyone else but they aren't now doing anything that much more innovative than anyone else so why suffer the quirks and features of a bizarre boss.
>pissing around with pricing at the detriment of existing owners. Yeah this I never understood. No one who buys any other grand bitches as much as Tesla owners do about price changes. I couldn't tell you what the fuck Skoda, Volkswagen, LDV, Ford, Foton, or any other brand did when I drove out the driveway. Tesla owners? Seem to watch the prices like they're a stock price and their cars are the shares.
Probably because other manufacturers don't tend to drop prices as dramatically as Tesla do for existing, or even brand new models, and instantly haemorrhaging $10 or 20k off their cars value. Also, an EV is predominantly bought for financial reasons and so EV owners view their cars as financial calculations, not driving enjoyment. So they're wired to look at costs minutely in order to make the argument stack up.
>instantly haemorrhaging $10 or 20k off their cars value. Yeah but that's really only an issue if you buy cars as an investment. You buy cars because you use them, not to hold value. It's essentially an electric Camry, not a Countach.
"It's essentially an electric Camry, not a Countach..." That was beautiful... If there was an award for the best sentence on Reddit everyday then this one has my vote
Thankyou kind sir, I literally had one owner tell me he expects the car to go up in value as it ages
Like a Toyota?
You're missing the point. If you instantly drop someone in to substantial, unplanned negative equity then it's an issue for any one. And Tesla has more repeat buyers than most (https://www.google.com/amp/s/insideevs.com/news/690805/tesla-had-auto-industry-highest-repeat-buyer-rate-h1-2023/amp/) and consistently shitting on your loyal base isn't a good long term plan
>If you instantly drop someone in to substantial, unplanned negative equity then it's an issue for any one. But that's only negative if they're using it as a positively geared asset. But how is it unplanned if it's known that Tesla will randomly, and rather often, do this?
No. Its any geared asset.
It’s not a binary scenario. Just because it’s not positively geared doesn’t mean you’re not expecting some retention in value. When I buy a car I’m not expecting to throw it away for $0.
It's either being bought as an investment, or it isn't.
No that's bullshit. They're not hobbies where people accept a total cost outlay due to the emotional benefit. And almost no one is buying an EV due to an emotional decision
No one is buying a new Tesla as an investment. Doesn’t mean they don’t care about resale value.
I think you're missing the fact that it will massively impact the resale value beyond what would be reasonably expected when it was purchased.
But if it's well known that Tesla does it, how are people not factoring it in?
I guess you could take the drop in sales as a sign that they are starting to.
Not really. If I can save 10 or 20k by waiting a month, that’s just good financial sense.
Then do that 🤷♂️ But buying a new car isn't the best financial sense ever, as depreciation is almost always gonna hit you.
Agree to both. Just putting some perspective on it.
Honestly though, I remember when you would buy a Calais or a new Mercedes and that was considered normal to lose 10-15k by putting rego plate on it.
Oh for sure. I think most people are aware of it and willing to cop it. Having the brand then go and knock another 20k off the value because the stock is overpriced, and the CEO is an idiot doing his best to keep it up and somehow destroy it at the same time, hurts
No one is buying an EV for financial reasons. If you were budget conscious you'd simply buy a second hand ice vehicle for $5-10k. Tesla's are luxury vehicles with a show off factor.
Of course they are - you're ignoring the equivalency or opportunity factor. They're going to spend the money on a new car anyway, or due to the FBT benefits, fuel, servicing etc they are choosing EVs over the equivalently priced, or desired, ICE vehicle, or at least taking the opportunity to get one at a perceived much lower cost. If the FBT benefits were removed tomorrow most EV sales would tank given spending $60 to 80k only makes sense for most people because the economics make it make sense. What's the compelling reason most people buy an EV? EV sale have gone sky high since the FBT benefits came in.
Yep only remotely comparable to ICE vehicles in cost due to FBT concessions. Still a terrible financial decision due to the abysmal second hand value of EVs, especially Chinese EVs. They are disposable cars with absolutely terrible repairability and therefore terrible resale value.
>Tesla's are luxury vehicles with a show off factor. Yes except they aren't luxury, they are cheaply made with poor QC
Just like most luxury vehicles to be fair.
Speak for yourself. People who want a new car with tax benefits buy EVs
If they can't think long term enough to understand the loss they will take at the end of the lease compared to reliable ICE brand then that's a bit ignorant .
Because they bought the car for attention/status symbolism and need everyone to know they are above them... They get upset when this changes... It's like those people that care about having an iPhone or a Gucci hand bag
You really think so? Have you seen how many there are on the road? They are basically the camrys of EVs.
No one buys a Tesla for status lmao
Plenty think they do.
Skoda doing some solid price drops. Also look at the e-2008 for $40k driveway previously $70k
They turned into the Apple of cars...
Each time I see news of them aggressively dropping prices i feel like they're just shooting themselves in the foot. Existing customers who missed out feel hard done by and potential customers will now wait longer before pulling the trigger. Feels like dark times are ahead for Tesla.
Better than dealing with a dealership I reckon.
Teslas were always bad quality. Now that the rest of the market has started making good quality ev’s… Tesla are losing customers.
Tesla's from.2021 onwards have been good.
Good compared to previous years Teslas
Quality has increased, but they’ve started to remove things like ultrasonic sensors and the quality of the audio system.
They removed the uss because they are going solely on vision which removes the need of the uss.
I don't think the wheels have come off, but how much they've squandered their advantage is becoming more and more obvious every day.
My take on this is that Elon is the master of start up. He is able to take a harebrained idea, and, no matter how unlikely, make it work. It then takes an entirely different skillset for the CEO to manage the business through the next decade of its life - he's not cut out for that, and should have handed over the reins years ago. Example - the cyber truck should not exist in it's current form in any way at all...
I don't think he's even particularly good at start ups either, he's just got enough money to repeatedly throw at the wall that one inevitably sticks. And too many yes men around him, the cyber truck was certainly a dumb move, I hear Tesla had a backup plan for a decent one, but he said I want the dumb one?
What crazy idea has he made work? Any dumbass can build a ute with a battery, they aren't the only company that builds them now. But what other ideas?
Space X, the teledirectory that gave him his first fortune, his AI robot. It's also not about just "making" the ute with a battery - it's that what, 10 years ago, when EVs were not profitable and not on anyone's radar, he managed to manufacture millions of them, before the competition really caught up. Everything he's touching right now is going to shit, he just needs to move on, and find the next harebrained idea. He failed with X, he needs his next one.
He’s a con artist, self driving robo taxis. The Tesla semi, full self driving, the disaster that is the cyber truck, the roadster, twitter, hyperloop, whatever that Vegas loop became, arnt we suppose to be on mars by now from his 2016 time lines? He should be slammed for securities fraud and thrown in jail.
I do agree with that, but that's the world we live in, right? He's just better at it than you or I...
Dosnt have to be, vote with your wallet and don’t buy his shit, you’re essentially enabling this bullshit if you buy a Tesla. He could have just shut the fuck up and I bet more people would have bought a Tesla, fuck I probably would have. I went with the KIA EV purely because it won’t support this asshole.
no, it doesn't have to be, and I do vote with my wallet, but lets not pretend people that vote with their wallet are in the majority here. Case in point being Colesworth....
Dude it’s a car brand not a food shop. A big one every decade purchase is a lot easier to say fuck that guy and buy any other of the dozen or so of brands that make EVs. Colesworth is a different type of argument that’s more complex, Tesla would be a brand of frozen peas in this analogy. Don’t like Tesla brand peas or think the CEO is a fuckwitt, get another brand.
I feel they needed a smaller cheaper vehicle to stop the Chinese getting established and a large SUV with more conventional styling for the school pick up/soccer mum. BYD is going to the other extreme and releasing multiple of every vehicle type which also makes little sense to me
They can’t compete with Chinese Labour prices.
My guy, they manufacture in China.
The S, X, the 3 and the Y are made in Fremont California my guy, out of the 17 Tesla factories only 2 are in China and they only produce the 3 and the Y. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Tesla_factories
Ok, so they're still taking advantage of the competitive cost of Chinese production to manufacture their 2 biggest selling models.
The models they build in China are to sell in China…. lol
They're not though. They're sold internationally. I have two friends with '23 plated Teslas, built in Shanghai. If I were to buy one, it would be made in China. For those playing at home, none of us reside in China.
Yeah, China and the countries closest to China, any friends with the S or X?
What exactly is the point you're trying to make here? "They can't match China on cost" > literally manufactures in China "Lol they only sell the Chinese made ones in China" > literally sell them outside of China. "Yeah but that's only their volume models, what about these ones?" > ???
Yeah they can’t compete with Chinese manufacturing costs, they build all over the world, only 2 models are built in China and for certain markets.
I think they'd be fine if they kept innovating in terms of design, features, or models. But they didn't! Once an aspirational car they are now the Camry, but made by an asshole
Incredible how quickly the Tesla design looks dated and old.
I reckon the exterior of the 3 and S have aged extremely well. The interior not so much just looks cheap and the big screen is standard on plenty of cars now so any wow factor is gone
I never really understood why they don’t update their models. I know they make minor adjustments here and there but they are so minors would have to take a toll eventually. To be fair to them though they are still the only profitable EV producer around. Everyone else is losing massive money on every EV they produce. So they must be doing something right.
Hmmmm. I want to buy an EV. Tesla's more expensive and meh but that's ok. They're cool! I want to be cool! Hey what? They're not cool? The models are really old? Then why would Musk fire the design team for new models? But the Supercharger network is awesome. Can we all agree on that? Bullshit - don't tell me he fired the Supercharger team responsible for most of the reasons you'd buy a shitty over priced Tesla... Damn. He did. But the cool kids still think he's the hottest thing round. That's never gonna change... Buggar. Now they think he's a 'legacy of the authoritarian white apartheid era of South Africa'. This is way too confusing. Maybe I'll just buy a runout BYD Atto for way less.
The Atto is awesome. Current runout price rather compelling. Love mine.
Atto and dolphin still way overpriced imo, yeah the run out makes it acceptable but we are talking more than 1 year old demos. At full price a $51k atto won’t sway many from a $58k model 3.
Perhaps just better competition in the market?. They started off with a monopoly and now have some serious challengers.
Its the risk of building a cult of personality around a product. Both can be forgiven for being offbeat up to a point. But to be mainstream they both need broad appeal and to be seen as mostly reliable. Unfortunately, over time the products have proven to be as shitty as the CEO.
People happily drive brands with the sordid history of BMW, Mercedes, VAG, Toyota, Ford and every Chinese maker. But they’re so upset by fElon saying speech free of govt censorship is a fundamental tenet of a liberal democracy that they won’t buy a Tesla?
>BMW, Mercedes, VAG, True, the Nazi links are pretty apparent there. >Toyota What has Toyota really done that's so bad. >Ford Ahh yes, profits over people with the likes of the Pinto. Even look at the current F150, seems like a fundamentally unsafe hunk of garbage. >every Chinese maker Volvo? Lotus? Polestar? MG? LDV? BYD? Curious what they all have done. >they’re so upset by fElon saying speech free of govt censorship is a fundamental tenet of a liberal democracy What does this have to do with the cars?
Toyota actively spreads FUD around climate change.
I'm still not convinced that's not a marketing tactic hey. I mean, Toyota is investing *Billions* into battery tech https://pressroom.toyota.com/toyota-supercharges-north-carolina-battery-plant-with-new-8-billion-investment/ https://global.toyota/en/newsroom/corporate/37964997.html https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2022/08/31/business/toyota-ev-battery-plant https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/toyota-lg-energy-sign-battery-supply-agreement-power-evs-2023-10-04/ https://global.toyota/en/newsroom/corporate/28913488.html https://asia.nikkei.com/techAsia/Toyota-bets-on-solid-state-as-CATL-eyes-Thailand I think Toyota is just using all their tools to try and delay until they can just come in with a BEV Camry that costs $50,000 and does 1,000km on a charge with a 5 minute recharge. They know what they need to do, they're just delaying until they have market dominance
Toyota were betting big on their hydrogen cars and stubbornly refused to push their EV efforts. Most sane people would know hydrogen tech is not the way to go due to cost and safety. They are just trying to play catch-up now.
Exactly, and they're using every delay tactic to get there
Has nothing to do with the cars. But no Teslarati cared about fElon’s conduct when he was committing securities fraud (“funding secured” and the annual promise of level 5 autonomy, “1 million Robotaxis” “your car will be an appreciating asset”). They didn’t seem to care about sometimes abysmal build quality either. His unforgivable sin was to buy Twitter.
Nah, the cars are just below average
He didn't support free speech during elections in Türkiye, to help out despot Erdoğan. Elon is a hypocrite.
He campaigns against censorship laws but adheres to them locally because he has no choice - they can just turn it off at will. He disregards any attempt to impose extraterritorial censorship. It’s not fElon’s job to overturn Turkish law. The suggestion that he’s trying to help Erdogan is absurd. And the hypocrites are the ones saying he should have pushed back harder against Erdogan but bent over deeper for the equally repressive Biden regime.
It’s over in terms of the exponential growth that the share market was clearly expecting with the insane valuation of the company (at one point being more than every other car company combined). Tesla was essentially a gamble that more expensive processes intended for sports cars would eventually become cheaper for standard cars, and that simply hasn’t happened. Cylinder batteries remain more expensive that flat. Giga casting remains more expensive than stamping and robot welding. Tesla can’t make the model 2 because its primary investment tech won’t be able to make them cheap enough.
Have electricity prices gone anywhere but up..? Has the cost of living somehow affected people's ability to purchase a brand new fucking car!?! Has people's ability to care for the environment been outweighed by the complete disregard and inaction of our elected officials?? Should any of us care that Tesla is losing sales when they produce such poor quality cars..? Are any of us even remotely responsible for any of this bullshit..? Are there actual questions we should be asking right now instead of this nonsense?
Agree with your points, but just to chip in on this one: > Have electricity prices gone anywhere but up..? A lot of Tesla owners I know have already got solar panels installed. In fact this is usually a very big factor when buying a Tesla or EV in general - it mmeans free fuel as long as they don't drive crazy distances every day.
Solar charging is a thing, and very viable.
my man
Surely most of the arrogant 30yr + professionals who want to look superior, all have one by now?
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I'm sorry, you're telling more about your insecurities than anything else with this post...
😂😂😂