The dichotomy you're noticing isn't new. There were Christians marching with Rev. King and Christians marching for segregation. There were Christians staunchly opposed to the Nazis and Christians who supported them.
Rather than whatever sources you're currently reading, read and amplify the voices of Christians who carry on the mantle of Mr. Rogers. There are *lots* of them.
> Mr. Rogers was (unfortunately) never the state of Christianity writ large
Yep. For as impossible as it is to discuss Mr. Rogers' activism without touching on Christianity, like how François Clemmons even framed that famous pool episode in Biblical language by saying Mr. Rogers ["washed [his] feet"](https://www.biography.com/actors/mister-rogers-officer-clemmons-pool), we also have to discuss things like how MLK, at least, was so far to the left that his contemporaries accused him of being a communist plant.
EDIT: Okay, he was technically talking about the time in the 90s when they recreated the scene for Clemmons' last appearance on the show, and Mr. Rogers went a step further in actively drying Clemmons' feet. But you get my point
However, and this is very important. The people who are invested the most, the people who believe the most, and the people who are loudest and biggest believers of Christianity are Trump followers. A majority of Christians are trump followers. So yes, it is the state of Christianity. If someone truly believed in being anything remotely close to Christian or believe in anything that the religion stood for, you cold never ever stand for Trump. Ever.
Mr. Rogers certainly embodied a brand of love-focused mainline Protestantism that has become synonymous with the mainline today, as opposed to the sort of traditionalism embodied by the mainline of R.C. Sproul. Interestingly, both went to the same Presbyterian seminary.
The issue is that the mainline is in decline, and has been since the 60s. People who are open minded seem to be disconnected with the need to belong to a congregation and attend regularly.
> The issue is that the mainline is in decline, and has been since the 60s
Eh, it's a bit overstated. If you actually look at the breakdown by denomination, almost everyone's shrinking at about the same *proportionate* rate. The only outliers are the UMC and the SBC shrinking more rapidly, and non-denominationals actually *growing*. But while the SBC and non-denominationals cancel each other out, so Evangelicals are shrinking at the normal rate, there's nothing to cancel out the UMC, making it look like mainline denominations are shrinking much more rapidly.
Now, there are certainly other concerns, like how a lot of denominations are dealing with a priest shortage, but that feels like a different discussion than census numbers
Two centuries ago the mainline churches made a pact with the devil: social respectability entailed church attendance. As a consequence, we got out of the habit of preaching the gospel well and became country-clubbish. That pact collapsed in the 1960s and we're still getting our sea legs back under us at preaching and living out Christ's commands. There's probably some hard times ahead, but I think we're on the right path now, and will see the fruits of that in a generation or two.
Evangelical churches made a pact with the devil more recently: they gave up the beating heart of the gospel in exchange for power, so as to enforce a vision of social respectability on those around them. Like the mainline churches before them, they'll face a reckoning for this, and it's coming *fast*. I don't know what the light at the end of the tunnel looks like for that bargain.
> So yes, it is the state of Christianity.
I don't think "A majority of this group is X" is sufficient to suppor the claim "X is the state of this group". A majority of Americans are white, but I don't think that being white is the state of the USA.
I also don't think that "would vote for Trump" is sufficient to say "Trump is represents the state of your religious beliefs". I would vote for Biden, and I *certainly* don't feel well-represented by him.
But the existing power structure's whiteness is at the root of many problems in the US.
And the people who vote for Trump did align with him over religious beliefs. While I am in your camp (voting for Biden though he's my least favorite person to elect) the contingent of proud Trump voters are very squarely in the religious right, and overwhelmingly white.
Or perhaps it's just a universal phenomenon, not unique to American culture nor even to Christianity.
Some people suck, some people don't, most can be swayed either way. That's just a sobering reality. And there's nothing inherently special or unique about Christians that they should fall more into one category rather than the other.
Back in the day, the quakers were puritans. Even the name Quaker was a bit like a 'Toronto blessing' deal more recently. They were the extremists, they came to American because they were not allowed to persecute others back in Europe.
They have mellowed a lot since.
What? The Quakers were imprisoned because they protested the death penalty, and because they opposed paying tithes to the Church of England. They wouldn't take oaths of loyalty to the crown and refused to take up arms, and generally opposed the idea of *any* Christians having centralized power, themselves included. The "worst" thing I'm aware of them doing is heckling the Church of England clergy.
I can't think of any time they made any attempt to persecute others, nor can I find any examples in my searches just now. Do you have an example of Quakers attempting to "persecute others back in Europe?"
This isn't prospective. Prospective would be thinking about the NUMBER of Christians who supported each side. When you consider that, the picture changes dramatically.
Same Catholic church helped jews also:https://amp.dw.com/en/catholic-church-hid-jews-from-nazis-in-rome-research-shows/a-66747769
See also: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rescue_of_Jews_by_Catholics_during_the_Holocaust?wprov=sfla1
Reality: complex relationship with some priest pro-nazi but many against it. Nazi was hostile to Catholic Church and so was most of the catholic clergy to them
See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Church_and_Nazi_Germany?wprov=sfla1
Also, your MLK remark is horseshit. I wish Christians would know history a lot better.
[https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/acts-of-faith/wp/2018/01/15/why-so-many-white-churches-resisted-martin-luther-king-jr-s-call/](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/acts-of-faith/wp/2018/01/15/why-so-many-white-churches-resisted-martin-luther-king-jr-s-call/)
I mean, at minimum, Rev. King was *himself* a Christian pastor, and many of the folks marching with him were his parishioners. He was a leader of the SCLC, after all.
"[Those preachers](https://www.texasmonthly.com/news-politics/billionaire-tim-dunn-runs-texas/)" have been a problem on the right since before the days of Barry Goldwater.
Well before that, really. Look at the many Christian denominations and when they came to be. You’ll find that most of them exist as a result of differences of faith falling along what is essentially ‘progressive vs. conservative’.
Speaking about America specifically, the Puritans were problematic enough that the church of the time wanted them gone, so off they went. Religious extremism is as foundational to american history as abusing the natives.
The devotees of Saint John Birch were determined to subvert a communist overthrow of the USA. They treat their neighbors with contempt as collaborators, scream about taxation as theft, and lay in a supply of firearms with the intent of going down in flames rather than living with a gummint they hate.
You are my one response.
Why are they followed, amplified and given megaphones?
And what forces, among American Christianity, is going to place all on the line to stand up again them?
I get it. There are lots of words that those people aren't Christian and such. And I understand, from where you are those people aren't Christian.
So what's the endgame? How is that harm fixed?
>Why are they followed, amplified and given megaphones?
Money. Jesus said love of money is the root of all evil, and even if you are an atheist, follow the thread of the evils of the world and they will lead you to greed. Every time. Do you think Christians quietly serving others is good clickbait? Makes for exciting pictures on the evening news? Will get viewers for your advertisers? Couple this with the fact that many of us take the admonition to do good deeds in secret seriously (Matthew 6:1-4) and you don't have a lot of visible action.
But many conversations do take place privately. I've found in real life conversation with Christians on the other side (i.e. Trump supporters- let it be noted I have been vehemently opposed since 2016), that you do have to tread lightly. Some of my friends no longer listen to me because I came on too strong in the beginning, and then I truly lost my shit in the pandemic. I was so angry and disbelieving at the Christian response. Heartbroken and enraged. Now they just roll their eyes and write me off as a "liberal Christian" (guilty as charged) and barely saved (sigh). I regret I did not have more control over my tongue.
You won't like this answer, but it is all I can offer: it really will take prayer and a move of God to change hearts. Some of the things I've seen these last eight years, the vehemence and fervor with which these counter-Gospel, anti-Biblical beliefs are held... The only answer I can see is a spiritual one. It honestly feels demonic sometimes. It defies logic, reason, solid theological arguments... I sometimes wonder if this is how believers felt in 1930s Germany as Hitler rose to power and they saw the people they went to church with fall sway to a cult of personality.
You can DM me if you are interested in having a real conversation. Much of what you touch on requires a longer response.
I am regularly reminded of the Sermon on the Mount (Matthew 7:15-20) and often wonder what kind of fruit so many think they are bearing. I try my best not to judge but it really seems like many need a refresher on the Fruits of the Spirit. When you don't see love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, or self-control...
Indeed. I wonder what evangelical culture would look like if we held the Beatitudes in the same esteem and understanding in which we hold the Ten Commandments. What would it be like, I wonder, if we really tried for a Sermon on the Mount lifestyle? I'm just as guilty as anyone else of not walking it out, but I feel like most of the American church isn't even *aware* of it as thing to reach for.
"And what forces, among American Christianity, is going to place all on the line to stand up again them?"
The Holy Spirit will. Christ will. We will see a huge revival in our lifetimes. It *always* comes when the church writ large turns to am anathema to its society. Look at history, and look to our present. More and more grassroots preachers or open air preachers or yt channels preaching will emerge and we will see another great american revival. Just like the 1880s-90s saw.
Christianity, writ large, looks oppressive, legalistic, and judgemental. When you, OP, start hearing a message of love, heartfelt contrition, and repentance, and how Jesus' Blood cleanses us, then this will have started.
But I see that message of love. And it is combined with the most hateful messages towards my gay friends I could ever imagine.
So I might have been in that tent before. But because of the hate I see for my friends, the pure rejection of who they are as people, that love has zero impact.
I hope that makes sense.
Christianity isn’t a club..
It’s supposed to be a relationship with Christ through prayer and scripture and you share that relationship by loving others and treating them how you would want to be treated…
That is the Christianity that I learned growing up in a nondenominational church; I fell away for a time. The Bible is right though when it says train up a child in the way he should go and when he is old he will not depart from it…
Other people do dumb stuff don’t let that sour YOUR RELATIONSHIP with God
Christians and America voted Mr. Rogers into the White House in 1977. Then they realized that following Christian convictions is a bad way to destroy your enemies, accumulate power, etc. This group of Christians realized they did not actually want to be servant to all, etc. but that they wanted *their* identity to be dominant.
> he was still an imperialist
Not sure where you're getting that from. For example, I remember him pushing to have the Panama Canal and surrounding zone returned to Panama because he said it was the right thing to do - this was literally an anti-imperialist, anti-colonialist move. He took a lot of heat for that from the Right at the time. Got called all kinds of things like "communist".
Carter actually lives and has lived a Christian testimony though.
Carter was an actual hero who served his country and risked his life to protect the lives of his fellow servicemen.
Yes, the USA is an Imperialist, Colonialist country, but you can hardly lay that at the feet of Jimmy Carter.
For some reason I stumbled on [this video about Mr. Rodgers](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PqiJU3yATzk), and it reminded me how truly universal his kindness was.
Oh absolutely. I’m pretty sure it was specifically Tucker Carlson and Jesse Watters that were saying that and I already thought they were a couple of… I’ll be nice and say less than savory characters… before I heard them disparage one of my favorite humans
It is because they are worried about worldly things such as taxes, their personal wealth, etc.
If we give food to kids, it raises property taxes, and that means less money to spend on myself!
Pittsburgh gave us two famous Presbyterians, pcusa minister Fred Rogers. And pca minister Robert Sproul.
They both attended Pittsburgh Seminary, and Sproul graduated the year after Rogers.
Only one of them was called "the greatest and most influential proponent of the recovery of Reformed theology in the last century."
Rather unfortunate.
Mr. Rogers shared a pool with a black man when racists were pouring bleach in pools that black people occupied. It's a damn shame Rogers is gone and Trump keeps chugging along
Hey, there's actually some backstory to the famous "acid in the swimming pool" story. There was one hotel owner who welcomed people of color into his pool -- the racists then began TERRORIZING this white hotel owner until he feared for his life. In response, he got a picture taken of him pour 'acid' into the pool -- but the pool was highly clorinated and the acid would actually have made the pool a little more comfortable to swim in.
That just blew my mind. You see the picture and it looks like such a simple story, but it turns out to be not so simple after all -- everyone in the picture was a victim of hate.
Both sides have always been there. It's because the increasing unholy alliance between the far right (who want to keep power) and Christians means that some of the most vocal "Christians" are those that support MAGA. There are plenty of Christians who want to see changes for the better but the loudest are those who worship conservative values over Christian ones. It's not Christianity's fault, its the fault of those who co-opted Christianity for political power.
I mean, there is the whole section in Revaluation about the Anti-Christ. Makes perfect sense to me if this is the end of days and all that some swear it is. They are making golden statues our of the guy at CPAC. Not sure how many times the modern day church will jump the shark for DJT .
Yes, Catholic social teaching advocates for helping the needy, and living out of a life of charity, humility, and mercy.
[www.spiritual-theology.com](http://www.spiritual-theology.com)
When segregation was lifted, the south, traditionally extremely religious, were done with the Democratic party. Politicians saw opportunity, and the Republican party pandered to the south, part of that was endearing themselves to the growing evangelical movement, making it seem that Republicans were conservative and that conservative beliefs are God's beliefs
Now that Trump is an extremely popular and poisonous figure for the Republican party, evangelicals fall all over him like he's the second coming of christ, and evangelicals are very loud and open about their faith
Christianity isn't a monolith and there will be difference of opinions between 2 billion people
https://www.npr.org/2023/08/08/1192663920/southern-baptist-convention-donald-trump-christianity
This one or similar?
> It was the result of having multiple pastors tell me, essentially, the same story about quoting the Sermon on the Mount, parenthetically, in their preaching — "turn the other cheek" — [and] to have someone come up after to say, "Where did you get those liberal talking points?" And what was alarming to me is that in most of these scenarios, when the pastor would say, "I'm literally quoting Jesus Christ," the response would not be, "I apologize." The response would be, "Yes, but that doesn't work anymore. That's weak." And when we get to the point where the teachings of Jesus himself are seen as subversive to us, then we're in a crisis.
The fact that Mr. Rodgers is not a saint is the sole reason I dont give sainthood much thought. Catholics need to open it up to protestants to make it mean anything to us.
Dolly should be next in line.
Imagine telling the ancient church "A Christlike man will appear in the homes of all the children of the world for the rest of time and teach them that they are important and loved." Wed have "The church of Fred" on every southern street corner.
It didn’t, Trump is not even remotely Christian in anything beyond him calling himself one.
He has a history of not acting like one, he constantly says evil, hateful things about other people. He lies, he cheats, he steals, he bankrupts people. He is rich and is obsessed with his money and power.
““Not everyone who calls out to me, ‘Lord! Lord!’ will enter the Kingdom of Heaven. Only those who actually do the will of my Father in heaven will enter. On judgment day many will say to me, ‘Lord! Lord! We prophesied in your name and cast out demons in your name and performed many miracles in your name.’ But I will reply, ‘I never knew you. Get away from me, you who break God’s laws.’”
Matthew 7:21-23 NLT
There is no doubt in my mind that, unless there is dramatic change in both of their lives; both Trump and Biden are going to have bad news upon judgement
“Christianity” itself didn’t change, hasn’t changed, and won’t change. The message in scripture is the same now as it’s ever been. The negative stuff always comes from people misunderstanding or misinterpreting God’s word.
The enemy, doing what he does best. Perverting the Gospel to play to humans fleshly desires to hate. He perverts man's interpretation of the Bible to trick believers into behaving motivated by the flesh rather than the apirit.
What people tend to forget is that Satan is smart. Ridiculously smart. Smarter than any human. And he's been at this game for millennia. The board may have changed a bit as nations and technology changes, but the pieces, the humans, are practically the same as they've always been. He knows us better than we know ourselves. We have no chance of defeating him under our own power.
Op, this has been on going since Christ s time.
The theory goes, that since they couldn't silence Christ , they crucified him, but that did not work. After crucifixion, the next goal was to silence the followers . So anyone who was caught spreading it, was put to death too. Well, that attempt fell, cause the movement still grew.
So, to go at it again, they came up with another tactic, they infiltrated the movement, called themselves Christians( Pharisees), learn everything about the movement, and worked from the inside. This move was much more effective, cause it is hard to distinguish a true Christian from a fake one.
A Pharisee could call themselves Pharisee, and advocate for
Hate, and they would be easily recognized as such, and people could draw a line easily and not side with such hate.
But what about a Christian who call themselves Christians, talks Christianity, wears a cross, says they love Christ, but still advocates for hate. it would be difficult to see them as Pharisees cause they said they were Christians, and say they love Christ(false prophet effect)
Where are we now? Well, now the whole world thinks that christians are full of hate, and they want to disassociate from the christianity movement, which advocate for hate. This is because People can't tell apart the true ones from the Pharisees. This was the Pharisee s intended goal all along.
When you think about it, after resurrection, Christ went on to reign. What about the Pharisees? Where did they go? They really never disappeared. They stayed...defeated, yes, but they stayed and "respawned" into these fake Christians we see today.
The goal is the same as it was then, destroy the movement. This is why you have the evangelical movement we see today, and your Mr. Rogers story.
The best description I have seen to understand Donald Trump is this:
Donald Trump is Barabbas.
In the Triumphal Entry into Jerusalem the crowd wasn't cheering for Jesus because they thought he would save them from their sin and connect them to God. They thought he would raise an army and drive out the Romans. They wanted a political/military leader not a spiritual one.
So when he turned out not to be the military leader they thought they wanted they turned on him and when Pilate offered them the choice, they chose Barabbas, a violent thief and insurrectionist.
A large part of the evangelical church (and I am an evangelical) has chosen the way of Barabbas over the way of Jesus.
My grandmother laments how many members of the family have strayed from Mainline Protestantism, to “big tent revival churches with coffee bars in them.” Hate and pageantry puts asses in pews, unfortunately a well educated and compassionate minister is not what people are looking for.
I know how you feel. Growing up I watched Mr. Rodger’s with my parents. I believe it shaped me to be the man who I am today. But somehow my parents ended up becoming diehard Trump lovers. Whenever I ask them about the things he says or does, they shrug it off. I do know plenty of Christian’s who do not approve of Trump, but it is a very strange contrast
It saddens me to see how twisted the phrase "evangelical Christian" has become.
Mr. Rogers surely would have identified as an "evangelical" because that's what reformed tradition identifies with. Heck, most mainline protestant denominations (Us, Lutherans, Methodists, Anglicans, Baptists) would consider themselves as such.
The phrase *literally* means the "good news" and the emphasis is supposed to be on sharing the good news of the Gospel. Not using it to justify hatred and wield worldly power.
A brief history of Christendom, from about the Edict of Milan down to today will disabuse of the notion that Christianity has been for most of the 1700 years purely a pacifist faith.
Christians burned women as a spectator sport for thousands of years.
Christians destroyed entire societies, cultures and ethnicities in order to spread Christian doctrine.
Hippy Christianity is a relative new thing in the two-thousand plus years of the religion.
It's very simple. There has been overt attacks against our faith for decades, people like trump not because he's a good person but because he's an attack dog that can push back some of the erosion we've experienced.
But people have had a much more negative outlook on Christianity after it embraced Trump.
He hasn't helped you all. Unless millions of people leaving the faith or having zero desire to join the faith is helping.
People have much more negative opinion on Christianity now than they did before Trump.
lol, we get called evil monsters who want to enslave all women because we acknowledge that killing kids is a bad thing. We’re called the cause of every societal ill.
I don’t care if the world disagrees with me and I don’t believe that Trump of all things colors is negatively enough to have an impact.
The facts here are true regardless of your feelings.
Post Trump a lot more people see your faith in a negative light. IF he was was your savior to fight for your faith he failed.
>people like trump not because he's a good person
I'll go even father. People like Trump because he's NOT a good person. The sin is the selling point, and I fear for his followerss.
No, you can get plenty mad at the Nazis, and you can get plenty mad at the antisemitic militia wearing shirts that said "6 million wasn't enough" that tried to kill Pence. There's a place for righteous Christian anger. People talk about "anti-fascists" when they really mean anarchists. My granddad was an anti-fascist -- he didn't protest them, he shot them on sight. All his buddies did likewise.
Did the Germans of the 1930s have a hard time of it? you betcha. Was turning to Hitler the right move, oh no it wasn't and hell is filled with uncountable souls who followed tootbrush-stache into eternal damnation.
Imagine if the paranoid ramblings you listed here happened. That would be wild.
Nazis aren’t a thing no matter how much you project them on everything. Trump isn’t some Nazi monster. There is no evil anti semetic plot by the right, especially while the left calls for the genocide of Israel.
It’s always the people who want to kill everyone who disagrees with them that projects that madness on everyone else.
I love seeing on this subreddit people discover that Christians are not all the same, are not a monolith, and have varying views. Trump loving Christians are a vast vast vast minority of American Christians. They do not exemplify anything about our faith.
“How did Christianity, a global religion, devolve into a dichotomy between two White Americans from the 20th century?” The premise for your question is dishonest. “Christianity” did not go from anything. It is a 2000 year old religion. Trying to boil down its complexities into your perceptions of two men is strange.
This is not happening with Christianity worldwide. It's only in a certain faction of white American Evangelical Christianity, and unfortunately it tends to spread to some of our neighbors. But it is not actually part of Christianity. It's a political ploy.
Not just the US. The problems are different elsewhere, obviously, but Christianity has gone sour in Eastern Europe (Russia, Poland, Hungary, probably others, too) and places like Brazil, and certain countries in Africa. Granted, it's all about power and control in those countries as well.
The church is a bunch of people who think they need each other not God, it kinda devolves from there.
Once you convince yourself God needs you, you are an extremist and truly worthless to any one including yourself.
There are Christians who have zero understanding of the core beliefs of Christianity. Conservatives of this type are terrified that the world and America are changing, and many want to bomb us back to I Love Lucy days.
Trump, a completely morally bankrupt man, came along and barked idiotic things about Obama and immigrants. That gave a voice to the ignorant.
So here we are.
Some of us are cold for God and some of us are hot for God. Both cold and hot water are useful. But then there are some who are lukewarm for God which makes them entirely useless. I can't stand to see hot and cold Christians attacking each other just because one doesn't accept the others world view.
I personally am hot for God and so I'll always favor others who are hot for Him as well. Jesus made whips and drove everyone out of the temple who pretended to know God but surely did not. I am actually cold for those who don't know God and are in error but I am hot to those that do and are in error and refuse to fix their error.
How did we go from the Spanish Inquisition to Martin Luther?
Christianity has been used and abused, been made to harm and help, to hinder and heal, since Day One.
Trump isn't representative of anything new or different.
There have always been charlatans who've seen pretend Christianity as a useful tool to assist their personal goals.
Charlatans gonna charlat.
Throughout history you've always been able to pick out phenomenal Christians and pretenders for convenience -- existing at or near the same time.
You're comparing a kids' TV show host from a different time to a presidential candidate. At the time Mister Rogers did that in 1969, the president was Richard Nixon, we were in a losing war in Vietnam, there were riots in the streets from coast to coast, and Jim Crowe was still enforced in some parts of the country. That was not an idyllic time.
I know a speechwriter who was on his 2016 campaign team. They said they switched from the secular financial backers to the religious ones because they felt it gave them the best chance to win. The religious sources wanted abortion outlawed because the church-affiliated adoption agencies were making huge money on fees, but demand far outstripped supply, and adopters were refusing to adopt babies with crack cocaine in their systems, so they needed more “suburban” babies. They also wanted to outlaw contraceptives for the same reason. Everything was built around that from that point. Most of the team was secular, so when news of the affair broke, they thought their whole campaign was game over. But most of their church voters just voted for whoever the church said to anyway, because they were afraid to question the church. That’s how Trump became thought of as a Christian figurehead.
As time goes on things will get “from bad to worse” before Armageddon comes. So buckle in and get close to our creator. Rely on Jehovah with all your heart. He will give you strength to cope with this world until his day of judgement.
Jesus said of His disciples:
They hear His voice and follow Him
and do what He says.
They hear and keep the word of God
and abide in Him to bear much fruit.
They love Him and keep His commandments.
They follow Him - where? To the cross!
“Christianity” is not really a cohesive thing, as much as some people (both Christians and non Christians) like to treat it as such and like to delineate firm boundaries and definitions.
It includes within its umbrella people who have really hardly anything at all in common with each other in terms of their political beliefs, ideologies, or personal attributes. There have been communists who have been devout Christians, there have been Nazis who have been devout Christians, and obviously everything in between.
If I know nothing about a given individual except that they claim to be Christian, I know virtually nothing about what kind of person they are like.
I live in a pretty Red area in VA. Many older folks and Red is the norm around here. I know we have many Trump supporters there but you hear no one talking about him and our church certainly stays well away from politics. If a prayer is offered and mentions any politicians it is to include those in congress, the president and those leading the country. Makes no difference who is in office. I'd not belong to a church that made it clear they were supporting one side only or one particular person. I want politics left out of our services and we are very good with this at my church.
Donald Trump is quite successful with non-churched people or people who say they are evangelicals, but don’t go to church except Christmas and Easter. It’s a sign of a post Christian right if nothing more.
>How did Trump start to become more of a figurehead than than the legacy of Mr. Rogers? How did we go from "find the helpers" and a tacit command to be the helpers lead to support for a man like Trump
Because professional any things goes unethical marketing has been used to sell trump and most people I guess can't critically think and descern what's true and what's false.
And tbh Christians esp Fundamentalist ones seem almost incapable of admitting they are wrong even when they know that are and will ride the horse till it drops dead.. it's really sad to see the cult like blind follow of things observably evil like maga and it not being openly opposed by so many Christians.
And the long term affect of this will be a huge blot on christianity as a whole not just the literalist. Already young people see all the greed and hatred coming from the churches.. They see Christianity infecting public life in their school witness Christianity inspired bullying of there queer friends etc etc etc. And in fact what they are seeing is a joke..
Trust me, there are scores of both in every church. I pastored 3 suburban churches in Pittsburgh during the pandemic. You want to talk about amplified dichotomy? Good Lord the church council meetings I had that erupted into shouting matches was insane.
I remember one time shortly after George Floyd’s death, I preached on “love your neighbor as yourself.” I mentioned how that entire situation could have gone differently had people loved their neighbor as themselves. I also pushed that we too need to do the same and what it looks like in 2024. I got death threats for that. All because I wanted to encourage people to be loving. My response to the death threats were this “By threatening to take my life, are you loving me as you love yourself?” It pissed them off even more and thankfully they walked away. Seriously thought I may have lost my life right then
The Social Gospel movement died the day Dr. King was assassinated, and it's been downhill ever since. The Religious Right staged a hostile takeover of SBC, broke up the Methodist, Episcopalian and Presby churches, and started a megachurch trend that began with christofascist Reconstructionist Rushdooney. I've done extensive research on this.
I have been reading the major and Minor prophets in the Old Testament. I'm currently reading Jeremiah.
I'm learning that even during those times, it was the priests and prophets who caused God's children to go astray. Throughout all of Israel, this was the NORM, not the exception. They were a vile and wicked people, just as many Christians are today.
So-called Christians are QUI🤠K to point out that the Old Testament is all about laws and because we are living under the new covenant of grace, the law doesn't matter. This seemed like a lie to me, hence my exploration through the Old Testament. If God doesn't change, then what laws of his has changed? What did I miss?
The hypocritical irony of what those belief alone folks are saying can be spelled out by identifying the ACTUAL laws that matters to God in book after book, decade after decade.
The laws that truly mattered to GOD (Yahweh... that God) were simple: Worship Yahweh only ( not money, not Baal), don't use his name to persuade people you are defrauding, stop lying and defrauding people, do not cheat or abuse widows, and children (especially those without fathers), and foreigners, don't abuse your position and use your position to cause harm.
These are the laws that the people kept violating. These were the types of violations that brought out Yahweh's wrath. In book after book, it is "church leaders" and people who violate these very basic laws that God detested.
And you know what, these are the same laws and expectations that today's Christians do not want to be held to!!!! So they scream "We're under grace" so they can continue walking in a lie, practicing hate and deception and leading others to do the same. They don't seem to catch that God doesn't change his standards.
Like the folks in Israel at that time who went around saying / thinking that their birthright, armies, wealth, and geography could save them from God's justice, today's Christians who go around with the "I can hate people/ I can treat others like garbage" mindset will learn the hard way that Jesus meant what He said: "On that day, many will come to me crying 'Lord, Lord, I did this and that in your name,' but I will say depart from me...I never knew you."
They are going to find that Yahweh is not a liar. If He said He doesn't change, He meant it!!! The same laws that mattered TO HIM back then will matter to Him forever and ALWAYS.
He was concerned about vulnerable populations then and he is still concerned about vulnerable populations today! He was disgusted with liars and people who treated others like garbage back then and he is disgusted with people like that now!
The prophetical literature in the Old Testament is so revealing of God's nature. Delusional people act as if grace is a new thing, and they teach what Paul said instead of what Jesus and Yahweh said. But grace has always been there. There is instance after instance of "...but if people would just stop doing these evil things, I will restore them." The same is true today.
But like the church folk of old, people live according to the stubborn inclinations of their heart. They abuse their position and they abuse His reputation ( i.e. take his name in vain).
Today's Christians and church leaders are no different than their equivalents in the Bible. The masses are maligned in their hearts and it shows up in their vote, their participation in trump rallies, and their social media posts.
Christians stopped worshiping God by the classical definition quite a long time ago, at least in the United States, and instead began worshiping Zeus in a Jesus T-shirt
The Church has been infiltrated by enemies of the Church who would seek it destroyed. While posing as sheep when really they’re ravenous wolves. They make changes, assumptions and justifications for their unbiblical and scriptural actions. (Look at Martin Luther for example).
The Christians of Trump follow a gospel of hate. They are not Christians and would probably be the first to crucify Jesus if he were to come back. They worship themselves.
They aren’t thinking. They are just following. The truth is they have no love for people that aren’t like them. Trump makes it easy for them to act on it.
During Rodgers time, or just before, there were also Klan members burning crosses, believing themselves to be the only pure and godly race.
Horrible people have always existed. And knowing how powerful Faith is for true believers, it’s an easy way to power if you can somehow align your goals. If not, then you at least have to give that appearance.
The easiest way to do that is to have the same enemies. And while actual Christians are supposed to love their enemies and not cast the first stone, by focusing on LGBT and abortion, it’s relatively easy to weaponize their faith and turn it into votes.
You answered your own questioned! Washing people’s feet has nothing to do with being a Christian. Being a Christian is being born again by the Spirit of God. Why the white guy washing a black man’s feet, why didn’t you say a black man washing a white mans feet? Trump is the one who actually loves minorities. Biden is the raciest! Look at his policies.
trying to compare a religion to "1" person outside of Jesus is going to fall short.
as in the Bible, the people got their 'leaders' wrong all the time. Even King David is not perfect.
Trump is by no means an ideal Christian (can't even name a book from the bible), but his approaching to doing things different from all the other politicians, and actually getting them done, made him stand out.
there is the argument that Trump is Racist, but have you seen all the 'racist' things that [Biden have said?](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4m4_KibqaRU)
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I mean, Christians have always existed on both sides. For example, while the Union army was proudly singing about how they were God's wrath being meted out upon the Confederacy, the Confederates were also citing the Curse of Ham to justify that "peculiar institution". What really happened, I think, is that the two visions of Christianity just sharply *diverged* around the 80s. On the one side, you got things like the Southern Strategy or the Moral Majority, where Republicans realized they could focus on winning over religious conservatives by intermarrying politics and religion, to a degree where it's hard to say whether the GOP is the political arm of Evangelicalism or whether Evangelicalism is the religious arm of the GOP. (This is actually related to the origin of the term "Judeo-Christian", which is basically just conservatives appropriating Judaism to claim they aren't the only ones who want things) But on the other side, you say people leaning into more humanistic arguments. Religious liberals are *still* absolutely motivated by our religious convictions, like Dorothy Day before us. But we're also less interested in imposing Christianity on society and support concepts like secular democracy.
So you're left with a weird issue with perception. There are absolutely Christians and atheists on both side of the political spectrum, like how the alt-right was even founded by and for conservative atheists. But because only one side regularly talks about how faithful they're being to their religion in support of their policies, it's *very* easy to miss that fact.
Christians are still human, we make just as many mistakes as anyone else.
Churches are supposed to be a hospital for the broken, not a country club for the elite. But that doesn’t mean the snobby country club types don’t exist.
Support the ones that are doing it right and call out the ones that are doing it wrong (in truth and love, as Jesus would’ve).
Flip tables if you’re called to it.
But don’t paint everyone with the same brush.
Every one on planet earth , regardless of religion , race, gender, sexuality or creed , is a hypocrite in something. Don’t hold it against people, but hold them accountable in love.
It hasn’t. There has always been Christianity for Christians and Christianity claimed by those who aren’t sanctified. Christianity is for the messy, the broken. It’s a shame that the lost and loud should have a platform. It’s a shame that we have lost sight of scripture to spare the modern world some offended. But God’s plan prevails. No matter what happens, Jesus has a throne in Heaven.
A lot of people like to idolize politicians. Me personally? They all are deeply flawed. To that end, vote for the person who has policies you like. As far as Trump, he’s not exactly someone we want to act like, but then again, I don’t know of any politician we should strive to act like. And as long as you don’t feel like berating me, yes, I will most likely vote for Trump in November. I know this is Reddit, where the left rules, but just giving you honest feedback. Is Trump the devil? He’s certainly flawed, but from a sin perspective and the flawlessness of Christ, we all are. So, the question. Can God utilize someone like Trump to do His will. I think so. So, just like any politician, if you are a Christian, we should pray that God guides them.
It doesn't surprise me at all that you would support a man who cheated on all of his wives the last a porn star be paid for sex.
A man who advocates for violence. A man whose main concern is himself.
It does not surprise me in the slightest that you would support a man like that.
I know Trump is supporting Christianity well.
If you wish to support a man who cheated on all of his wives the last with a porn star, he paid for sex all while claiming the words of Jesus are important, you may.
>As far as Trump, he’s not exactly someone we want to act like
Sentences like this strike utter fear into my heart. Why are we Christians speaking this way about a potential leader who's behavior is visibly wicked?
When Adam sinned, he was ashamed and hid his nakedness. When we are tempted to use our God-given voices to life up a wicked leader, we say "I'm not electing a pastor!"
The bible is full of examples of the dangers of following wicked leaders. Character matters. Ronald Reagan and John Paul II didn't win the cold war by passing laws, they used the power of the pulpit.
"he’s not exactly someone we want to act like" -- pardon my french, but he's a fucking rapist, dude! Sure, him and Cosby are walking around free because of technicalities, but 'not exactly someone we want to act like' is... a wild way to phrase it.
(and i don't wnat this come off as if I'm political or trying to defend a pro-choice politician, it's not about that)
I believe that God is in charge. It will be His will that will be done. I trust in Him. I don’t know what God intends or how His work will be done. To the extent I believe the policies are better for certain things, I vote for who does the best in that regard. I have zero faith in politicians. Zero. They are all sinners, but so am I. You say you are a Christian. Do you think that people found it unfathomable that God could work through the evil King David, or the murderer Moses? It’s well beyond us. We can only pray. Is losing your mind over a stupid election worth it? In another four years some other sinner will be in charge. Gods got this.
>Gods got this
That is the source to peace in ANY era, and that's why I'm not really political. But this isn't about politics or voting, it's about using our voices in the here and now to minimize the sins of a leader who we hope will enact the policies we crave.
> a stupid election
I don't speak out against a rapist's wicked example to influence secular elections, but to save the elect -- every last lost sheep deserve a good shepherd to point them in the right way if they're willing to listen and able to discern.
>God could work through the evil King David
I expect God even worked through Hitler and Stalin, somehow or another, in ways you and I cannot comprehend. But their wicked examples led (and still leads) their unrepentant followers to a lake of fire.
Social media. Curated viewership with no real standard of quality. People are being polarized by what they see and it’s all for revenue (clicks = ad exposure).
Before it was Mr. Rogers, it was the KKK, and before that, the people who did any manner of evil things over the last 2000 years. Doing things in His name doesn't mean you're actually doing something IN HIS NAME. Politicians lie and act like asses, I'm not worried until one seems wholeheartedly honest and everyone likes him. Then, I'll perk an ear.
So the question is how many lives did Mr.Rogers change and what was his delivery mechanism. It certainly wasn’t president of an entire nation. You get my point? Not everyone is a Jesus Christ. There was a Peter a John a Simon a Judas, Timothy Paul all different like snowflakes each with their own special trait
Simple, it didn't. There will ALWAYS be people who claim one belief system or another, it doesn't mean they are what they say. God has NEVER changed, nor will he. Btw, Mr Rogers was his own person, if he actually lived right by Jesus, that's between him and God.
I don't see how any real Christian could vote for Biden. It's like throwing away everything Christ died for. Making up a bunch of bizarre fantasies isn't a Christian solution to the serious problem of the threat to Christianity in America.
The real bigotry is directed toward the finest Christians on the planet - Southern evangelicals. The black Southern Evangelicals may hold their nose and vote for Biden, but it's pretty easy to see that they're starting to come around.
I don't know why the Democrats were so racist back in the 1950's and 1960's. We do agree that the segregationists were Democrats, right?
Are we talking about present day now? I thought we were still talking about segregated pools and private clubs? Maybe you're just jumping around to whatever you want to make whatever weird point you feel like making.
It sounds like you fear masculinity. The thought of a person with a penis being in charge terrifies you. That's why you dream of a world where a milquetoast like Fred Rogers or Joe Biden is running things.
That doesn't work too well.
I just find it odd that when I talk to people on the right about this topic they somehow want to live in a world where history stopped as of the 1960's.
I have never laughed so hard, recently, as I did when I read your second paragraph. That was the funniest thing I've ever read.
You are a baffling person.
Yeah. I don’t really accept the premise of the question. In short - it didn’t. You’ve created a false narrative and presented it as if it were just a fact. But it isn’t. Neither Mr. Rogers nor Donald Trump are in any way representative of Christianity as a faith tradition, Christians as a group, or Christian thought and practice. The truth is, Christianity is far more diverse in its representations than these two men, nevermind that I don’t believe Donald Trump is a Christian.
When did atheism go from Robert Frost to Mao Tse Tung and Pol Pot? Answer? It didn’t.
The dichotomy you're noticing isn't new. There were Christians marching with Rev. King and Christians marching for segregation. There were Christians staunchly opposed to the Nazis and Christians who supported them. Rather than whatever sources you're currently reading, read and amplify the voices of Christians who carry on the mantle of Mr. Rogers. There are *lots* of them.
Incredibly well said. Carry on in peace redditor.
Yup. Mr. Rogers was (unfortunately) never the state of Christianity writ large. And Trump is (fortunately) not the state of Christianity now either.
> Mr. Rogers was (unfortunately) never the state of Christianity writ large Yep. For as impossible as it is to discuss Mr. Rogers' activism without touching on Christianity, like how François Clemmons even framed that famous pool episode in Biblical language by saying Mr. Rogers ["washed [his] feet"](https://www.biography.com/actors/mister-rogers-officer-clemmons-pool), we also have to discuss things like how MLK, at least, was so far to the left that his contemporaries accused him of being a communist plant. EDIT: Okay, he was technically talking about the time in the 90s when they recreated the scene for Clemmons' last appearance on the show, and Mr. Rogers went a step further in actively drying Clemmons' feet. But you get my point
However, and this is very important. The people who are invested the most, the people who believe the most, and the people who are loudest and biggest believers of Christianity are Trump followers. A majority of Christians are trump followers. So yes, it is the state of Christianity. If someone truly believed in being anything remotely close to Christian or believe in anything that the religion stood for, you cold never ever stand for Trump. Ever.
Mr. Rogers certainly embodied a brand of love-focused mainline Protestantism that has become synonymous with the mainline today, as opposed to the sort of traditionalism embodied by the mainline of R.C. Sproul. Interestingly, both went to the same Presbyterian seminary. The issue is that the mainline is in decline, and has been since the 60s. People who are open minded seem to be disconnected with the need to belong to a congregation and attend regularly.
> The issue is that the mainline is in decline, and has been since the 60s Eh, it's a bit overstated. If you actually look at the breakdown by denomination, almost everyone's shrinking at about the same *proportionate* rate. The only outliers are the UMC and the SBC shrinking more rapidly, and non-denominationals actually *growing*. But while the SBC and non-denominationals cancel each other out, so Evangelicals are shrinking at the normal rate, there's nothing to cancel out the UMC, making it look like mainline denominations are shrinking much more rapidly. Now, there are certainly other concerns, like how a lot of denominations are dealing with a priest shortage, but that feels like a different discussion than census numbers
Two centuries ago the mainline churches made a pact with the devil: social respectability entailed church attendance. As a consequence, we got out of the habit of preaching the gospel well and became country-clubbish. That pact collapsed in the 1960s and we're still getting our sea legs back under us at preaching and living out Christ's commands. There's probably some hard times ahead, but I think we're on the right path now, and will see the fruits of that in a generation or two. Evangelical churches made a pact with the devil more recently: they gave up the beating heart of the gospel in exchange for power, so as to enforce a vision of social respectability on those around them. Like the mainline churches before them, they'll face a reckoning for this, and it's coming *fast*. I don't know what the light at the end of the tunnel looks like for that bargain.
> So yes, it is the state of Christianity. I don't think "A majority of this group is X" is sufficient to suppor the claim "X is the state of this group". A majority of Americans are white, but I don't think that being white is the state of the USA. I also don't think that "would vote for Trump" is sufficient to say "Trump is represents the state of your religious beliefs". I would vote for Biden, and I *certainly* don't feel well-represented by him.
But the existing power structure's whiteness is at the root of many problems in the US. And the people who vote for Trump did align with him over religious beliefs. While I am in your camp (voting for Biden though he's my least favorite person to elect) the contingent of proud Trump voters are very squarely in the religious right, and overwhelmingly white.
> the people who believe the most Do they really, though?
Not this one
> And Trump is (fortunately) not the state of Christianity now either. Could've fooled me.
It’s American culture it’s puritans vs Quakers
Or perhaps it's just a universal phenomenon, not unique to American culture nor even to Christianity. Some people suck, some people don't, most can be swayed either way. That's just a sobering reality. And there's nothing inherently special or unique about Christians that they should fall more into one category rather than the other.
But there is. The very tenet of Christianity, the basis for it all, goes against everything that trump supporters espouse.
Back in the day, the quakers were puritans. Even the name Quaker was a bit like a 'Toronto blessing' deal more recently. They were the extremists, they came to American because they were not allowed to persecute others back in Europe. They have mellowed a lot since.
What? The Quakers were imprisoned because they protested the death penalty, and because they opposed paying tithes to the Church of England. They wouldn't take oaths of loyalty to the crown and refused to take up arms, and generally opposed the idea of *any* Christians having centralized power, themselves included. The "worst" thing I'm aware of them doing is heckling the Church of England clergy. I can't think of any time they made any attempt to persecute others, nor can I find any examples in my searches just now. Do you have an example of Quakers attempting to "persecute others back in Europe?"
I needed to read this. I’ve been so disillusioned with Christians lately. Thanks for giving us historical perspective
This isn't prospective. Prospective would be thinking about the NUMBER of Christians who supported each side. When you consider that, the picture changes dramatically.
Keep an eye out. There are lovely people all over the place! Most people are just lovely.
Well we should talk about those that claim to be christian but support trump. what happened to standing up to christian values?
> There are lots of them. Unlike in history, these Christians refuse to fight for right and urge appeasement.
The crappiest voices are usually the loudest unfortunately.
I mean on that note, the Catholic Church gave tacit support to the Nazis and helped a lot of them escape to South America
Same Catholic church helped jews also:https://amp.dw.com/en/catholic-church-hid-jews-from-nazis-in-rome-research-shows/a-66747769 See also: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rescue_of_Jews_by_Catholics_during_the_Holocaust?wprov=sfla1 Reality: complex relationship with some priest pro-nazi but many against it. Nazi was hostile to Catholic Church and so was most of the catholic clergy to them See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Church_and_Nazi_Germany?wprov=sfla1
Also, your MLK remark is horseshit. I wish Christians would know history a lot better. [https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/acts-of-faith/wp/2018/01/15/why-so-many-white-churches-resisted-martin-luther-king-jr-s-call/](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/acts-of-faith/wp/2018/01/15/why-so-many-white-churches-resisted-martin-luther-king-jr-s-call/)
I mean, at minimum, Rev. King was *himself* a Christian pastor, and many of the folks marching with him were his parishioners. He was a leader of the SCLC, after all.
Also, his successor as pastor of Ebenezer Baptist Church is currently serving in the US Congress as a (Democratic) senator
Nothing more needs to be said! This is fantastic!
It didn't. There were men like Trump then, and there are men like Rogers now.
It's not a line from Mr. Rogers to support of Trump, there have always been Christians in both categories.
Westborough Baptist, for example.
Elements like that have always existed in Christianity. Those who use it as a weapon instead of a shield
"[Those preachers](https://www.texasmonthly.com/news-politics/billionaire-tim-dunn-runs-texas/)" have been a problem on the right since before the days of Barry Goldwater.
Well before that, really. Look at the many Christian denominations and when they came to be. You’ll find that most of them exist as a result of differences of faith falling along what is essentially ‘progressive vs. conservative’.
Speaking about America specifically, the Puritans were problematic enough that the church of the time wanted them gone, so off they went. Religious extremism is as foundational to american history as abusing the natives.
Religious extremism is foundational to religion.
Unfortunately the right fully embraced and amplified them
The devotees of Saint John Birch were determined to subvert a communist overthrow of the USA. They treat their neighbors with contempt as collaborators, scream about taxation as theft, and lay in a supply of firearms with the intent of going down in flames rather than living with a gummint they hate.
That's the vast majority of Christian history
Those who truly heed the word and actually follow in Jesus' footsteps have always been rare.
As C. S. Lewis wrote, "The trouble with Christianity is, not that it's failed, but that it's never been tried". (Not on a societal scale, anyway.)
If a system consistently fails to be properly implemented, isn't that a failure of the system?
Oh agreed. Choosing kindness, charity and generosity over cruelty and greed has never been done anywhere.
You are my one response. Why are they followed, amplified and given megaphones? And what forces, among American Christianity, is going to place all on the line to stand up again them? I get it. There are lots of words that those people aren't Christian and such. And I understand, from where you are those people aren't Christian. So what's the endgame? How is that harm fixed?
>Why are they followed, amplified and given megaphones? Money. Jesus said love of money is the root of all evil, and even if you are an atheist, follow the thread of the evils of the world and they will lead you to greed. Every time. Do you think Christians quietly serving others is good clickbait? Makes for exciting pictures on the evening news? Will get viewers for your advertisers? Couple this with the fact that many of us take the admonition to do good deeds in secret seriously (Matthew 6:1-4) and you don't have a lot of visible action. But many conversations do take place privately. I've found in real life conversation with Christians on the other side (i.e. Trump supporters- let it be noted I have been vehemently opposed since 2016), that you do have to tread lightly. Some of my friends no longer listen to me because I came on too strong in the beginning, and then I truly lost my shit in the pandemic. I was so angry and disbelieving at the Christian response. Heartbroken and enraged. Now they just roll their eyes and write me off as a "liberal Christian" (guilty as charged) and barely saved (sigh). I regret I did not have more control over my tongue. You won't like this answer, but it is all I can offer: it really will take prayer and a move of God to change hearts. Some of the things I've seen these last eight years, the vehemence and fervor with which these counter-Gospel, anti-Biblical beliefs are held... The only answer I can see is a spiritual one. It honestly feels demonic sometimes. It defies logic, reason, solid theological arguments... I sometimes wonder if this is how believers felt in 1930s Germany as Hitler rose to power and they saw the people they went to church with fall sway to a cult of personality. You can DM me if you are interested in having a real conversation. Much of what you touch on requires a longer response.
I am regularly reminded of the Sermon on the Mount (Matthew 7:15-20) and often wonder what kind of fruit so many think they are bearing. I try my best not to judge but it really seems like many need a refresher on the Fruits of the Spirit. When you don't see love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, or self-control...
Indeed. I wonder what evangelical culture would look like if we held the Beatitudes in the same esteem and understanding in which we hold the Ten Commandments. What would it be like, I wonder, if we really tried for a Sermon on the Mount lifestyle? I'm just as guilty as anyone else of not walking it out, but I feel like most of the American church isn't even *aware* of it as thing to reach for.
"And what forces, among American Christianity, is going to place all on the line to stand up again them?" The Holy Spirit will. Christ will. We will see a huge revival in our lifetimes. It *always* comes when the church writ large turns to am anathema to its society. Look at history, and look to our present. More and more grassroots preachers or open air preachers or yt channels preaching will emerge and we will see another great american revival. Just like the 1880s-90s saw. Christianity, writ large, looks oppressive, legalistic, and judgemental. When you, OP, start hearing a message of love, heartfelt contrition, and repentance, and how Jesus' Blood cleanses us, then this will have started.
> We will see a huge revival in our lifetimes. Like the mid-20th century revivals that birthed evangelicalism? Can't WAIT.
But I see that message of love. And it is combined with the most hateful messages towards my gay friends I could ever imagine. So I might have been in that tent before. But because of the hate I see for my friends, the pure rejection of who they are as people, that love has zero impact. I hope that makes sense.
Christianity isn’t a club.. It’s supposed to be a relationship with Christ through prayer and scripture and you share that relationship by loving others and treating them how you would want to be treated… That is the Christianity that I learned growing up in a nondenominational church; I fell away for a time. The Bible is right though when it says train up a child in the way he should go and when he is old he will not depart from it… Other people do dumb stuff don’t let that sour YOUR RELATIONSHIP with God
There is a great book about it if you want a very detailed history called Jesus and John Wayne
I second this recommendation!
I third it. It's a great look at the history of how Evangelicalism ended up where it is now.
I fourth it. I used this book for my Bachelor's Thesis.
Christians and America voted Mr. Rogers into the White House in 1977. Then they realized that following Christian convictions is a bad way to destroy your enemies, accumulate power, etc. This group of Christians realized they did not actually want to be servant to all, etc. but that they wanted *their* identity to be dominant.
Jimmy Carter was better than other Presidents but he was still an imperialist and it's nonsense to call him Mr. Rogers.
> he was still an imperialist Not sure where you're getting that from. For example, I remember him pushing to have the Panama Canal and surrounding zone returned to Panama because he said it was the right thing to do - this was literally an anti-imperialist, anti-colonialist move. He took a lot of heat for that from the Right at the time. Got called all kinds of things like "communist".
Carter actually lives and has lived a Christian testimony though. Carter was an actual hero who served his country and risked his life to protect the lives of his fellow servicemen. Yes, the USA is an Imperialist, Colonialist country, but you can hardly lay that at the feet of Jimmy Carter.
the far right didn't like Mr Rogers back then either
For some reason I stumbled on [this video about Mr. Rodgers](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PqiJU3yATzk), and it reminded me how truly universal his kindness was.
Well Fox News has been disparaging Rogers for years now… claiming he helped turn millennials into a generation of narcissist
When you look at who's butt they openly kiss, their opinions on narcissism hold no value
Oh absolutely. I’m pretty sure it was specifically Tucker Carlson and Jesse Watters that were saying that and I already thought they were a couple of… I’ll be nice and say less than savory characters… before I heard them disparage one of my favorite humans
It's okay, you can say "asshats" on the internet.
can’t believe there’s fellow christian’s who think the children in my life shouldn’t receive food stamps to eat
It is because they are worried about worldly things such as taxes, their personal wealth, etc. If we give food to kids, it raises property taxes, and that means less money to spend on myself!
Pittsburgh gave us two famous Presbyterians, pcusa minister Fred Rogers. And pca minister Robert Sproul. They both attended Pittsburgh Seminary, and Sproul graduated the year after Rogers. Only one of them was called "the greatest and most influential proponent of the recovery of Reformed theology in the last century." Rather unfortunate.
Like there aren't Millions of Christians critical of Trump
It feels like the Trump supporting Christians are much louder and open than the ones that are opposed to him.
Mr. Rogers shared a pool with a black man when racists were pouring bleach in pools that black people occupied. It's a damn shame Rogers is gone and Trump keeps chugging along
Hey, there's actually some backstory to the famous "acid in the swimming pool" story. There was one hotel owner who welcomed people of color into his pool -- the racists then began TERRORIZING this white hotel owner until he feared for his life. In response, he got a picture taken of him pour 'acid' into the pool -- but the pool was highly clorinated and the acid would actually have made the pool a little more comfortable to swim in. That just blew my mind. You see the picture and it looks like such a simple story, but it turns out to be not so simple after all -- everyone in the picture was a victim of hate.
Ok, so my point still stands. Someone tried to be nice and racists ruined it.
absolutely!
Both sides have always been there. It's because the increasing unholy alliance between the far right (who want to keep power) and Christians means that some of the most vocal "Christians" are those that support MAGA. There are plenty of Christians who want to see changes for the better but the loudest are those who worship conservative values over Christian ones. It's not Christianity's fault, its the fault of those who co-opted Christianity for political power.
Money became their God and political power became their reason to exist.
I mean, there is the whole section in Revaluation about the Anti-Christ. Makes perfect sense to me if this is the end of days and all that some swear it is. They are making golden statues our of the guy at CPAC. Not sure how many times the modern day church will jump the shark for DJT .
You know, Mr. (Rev.) Rogers had a prayer list of names of people he met. He went through it daily
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Yes, Catholic social teaching advocates for helping the needy, and living out of a life of charity, humility, and mercy. [www.spiritual-theology.com](http://www.spiritual-theology.com)
When segregation was lifted, the south, traditionally extremely religious, were done with the Democratic party. Politicians saw opportunity, and the Republican party pandered to the south, part of that was endearing themselves to the growing evangelical movement, making it seem that Republicans were conservative and that conservative beliefs are God's beliefs Now that Trump is an extremely popular and poisonous figure for the Republican party, evangelicals fall all over him like he's the second coming of christ, and evangelicals are very loud and open about their faith Christianity isn't a monolith and there will be difference of opinions between 2 billion people
You know it's getting bad when the Bible and Jesus is becoming to woke for Conservative Christians
I am a Christian from the UK and remember reading an article that stated just that. 😔
https://www.npr.org/2023/08/08/1192663920/southern-baptist-convention-donald-trump-christianity This one or similar? > It was the result of having multiple pastors tell me, essentially, the same story about quoting the Sermon on the Mount, parenthetically, in their preaching — "turn the other cheek" — [and] to have someone come up after to say, "Where did you get those liberal talking points?" And what was alarming to me is that in most of these scenarios, when the pastor would say, "I'm literally quoting Jesus Christ," the response would not be, "I apologize." The response would be, "Yes, but that doesn't work anymore. That's weak." And when we get to the point where the teachings of Jesus himself are seen as subversive to us, then we're in a crisis.
That's the one. 😔
It is really terrifying to hear. I get it is probably an extreme minority but even so...
The fact that Mr. Rodgers is not a saint is the sole reason I dont give sainthood much thought. Catholics need to open it up to protestants to make it mean anything to us. Dolly should be next in line. Imagine telling the ancient church "A Christlike man will appear in the homes of all the children of the world for the rest of time and teach them that they are important and loved." Wed have "The church of Fred" on every southern street corner.
It didn’t, Trump is not even remotely Christian in anything beyond him calling himself one. He has a history of not acting like one, he constantly says evil, hateful things about other people. He lies, he cheats, he steals, he bankrupts people. He is rich and is obsessed with his money and power. ““Not everyone who calls out to me, ‘Lord! Lord!’ will enter the Kingdom of Heaven. Only those who actually do the will of my Father in heaven will enter. On judgment day many will say to me, ‘Lord! Lord! We prophesied in your name and cast out demons in your name and performed many miracles in your name.’ But I will reply, ‘I never knew you. Get away from me, you who break God’s laws.’” Matthew 7:21-23 NLT There is no doubt in my mind that, unless there is dramatic change in both of their lives; both Trump and Biden are going to have bad news upon judgement
What did Biden do?
“Christianity” itself didn’t change, hasn’t changed, and won’t change. The message in scripture is the same now as it’s ever been. The negative stuff always comes from people misunderstanding or misinterpreting God’s word.
God doesn't change. Christianity has shifted tremendously over the centuries.
Christianity didn’t do anything. “Christians” on the other hand do a lot of terrible things.
I ask myself this question every day. fRump should just be a footnote at this point.
Are you serious?!?
I’m gonna say it’s Satan’s plan and we are just vain enough to love it,
Christianity hasn't changed, merely the people who claim it. I pray for everyones discernment in finding those who truly wish to know Christ.
The enemy, doing what he does best. Perverting the Gospel to play to humans fleshly desires to hate. He perverts man's interpretation of the Bible to trick believers into behaving motivated by the flesh rather than the apirit.
What people tend to forget is that Satan is smart. Ridiculously smart. Smarter than any human. And he's been at this game for millennia. The board may have changed a bit as nations and technology changes, but the pieces, the humans, are practically the same as they've always been. He knows us better than we know ourselves. We have no chance of defeating him under our own power.
I agree that's why we need to fight back with the full armor of God guided by the Holy Spirit.
Op, this has been on going since Christ s time. The theory goes, that since they couldn't silence Christ , they crucified him, but that did not work. After crucifixion, the next goal was to silence the followers . So anyone who was caught spreading it, was put to death too. Well, that attempt fell, cause the movement still grew. So, to go at it again, they came up with another tactic, they infiltrated the movement, called themselves Christians( Pharisees), learn everything about the movement, and worked from the inside. This move was much more effective, cause it is hard to distinguish a true Christian from a fake one. A Pharisee could call themselves Pharisee, and advocate for Hate, and they would be easily recognized as such, and people could draw a line easily and not side with such hate. But what about a Christian who call themselves Christians, talks Christianity, wears a cross, says they love Christ, but still advocates for hate. it would be difficult to see them as Pharisees cause they said they were Christians, and say they love Christ(false prophet effect) Where are we now? Well, now the whole world thinks that christians are full of hate, and they want to disassociate from the christianity movement, which advocate for hate. This is because People can't tell apart the true ones from the Pharisees. This was the Pharisee s intended goal all along. When you think about it, after resurrection, Christ went on to reign. What about the Pharisees? Where did they go? They really never disappeared. They stayed...defeated, yes, but they stayed and "respawned" into these fake Christians we see today. The goal is the same as it was then, destroy the movement. This is why you have the evangelical movement we see today, and your Mr. Rogers story.
Oh Trump isn’t a Christian and was excommunicated from the PCUSA. Feel free to disregard any “Christian stuff” you see from Donald Trump
I’ve heard this
Not many christians really consider Trump one of their own. Not at all.
The best description I have seen to understand Donald Trump is this: Donald Trump is Barabbas. In the Triumphal Entry into Jerusalem the crowd wasn't cheering for Jesus because they thought he would save them from their sin and connect them to God. They thought he would raise an army and drive out the Romans. They wanted a political/military leader not a spiritual one. So when he turned out not to be the military leader they thought they wanted they turned on him and when Pilate offered them the choice, they chose Barabbas, a violent thief and insurrectionist. A large part of the evangelical church (and I am an evangelical) has chosen the way of Barabbas over the way of Jesus.
MR ROGERS >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Mr.Rogers is one of my favorites.
My grandmother laments how many members of the family have strayed from Mainline Protestantism, to “big tent revival churches with coffee bars in them.” Hate and pageantry puts asses in pews, unfortunately a well educated and compassionate minister is not what people are looking for.
50 years of careful cultivation of a cult of fear and anger and hate.
I know how you feel. Growing up I watched Mr. Rodger’s with my parents. I believe it shaped me to be the man who I am today. But somehow my parents ended up becoming diehard Trump lovers. Whenever I ask them about the things he says or does, they shrug it off. I do know plenty of Christian’s who do not approve of Trump, but it is a very strange contrast
It’s the difference between Presbyterians (which I believe Mister Rogers was) and Baptists and other similar types that follow or worship Trump.
It saddens me to see how twisted the phrase "evangelical Christian" has become. Mr. Rogers surely would have identified as an "evangelical" because that's what reformed tradition identifies with. Heck, most mainline protestant denominations (Us, Lutherans, Methodists, Anglicans, Baptists) would consider themselves as such. The phrase *literally* means the "good news" and the emphasis is supposed to be on sharing the good news of the Gospel. Not using it to justify hatred and wield worldly power.
A brief history of Christendom, from about the Edict of Milan down to today will disabuse of the notion that Christianity has been for most of the 1700 years purely a pacifist faith.
Christians burned women as a spectator sport for thousands of years. Christians destroyed entire societies, cultures and ethnicities in order to spread Christian doctrine. Hippy Christianity is a relative new thing in the two-thousand plus years of the religion.
It's very simple. There has been overt attacks against our faith for decades, people like trump not because he's a good person but because he's an attack dog that can push back some of the erosion we've experienced.
But people have had a much more negative outlook on Christianity after it embraced Trump. He hasn't helped you all. Unless millions of people leaving the faith or having zero desire to join the faith is helping. People have much more negative opinion on Christianity now than they did before Trump.
lol, we get called evil monsters who want to enslave all women because we acknowledge that killing kids is a bad thing. We’re called the cause of every societal ill. I don’t care if the world disagrees with me and I don’t believe that Trump of all things colors is negatively enough to have an impact.
The facts here are true regardless of your feelings. Post Trump a lot more people see your faith in a negative light. IF he was was your savior to fight for your faith he failed.
>people like trump not because he's a good person I'll go even father. People like Trump because he's NOT a good person. The sin is the selling point, and I fear for his followerss.
You can’t tell half the population that they’re evil monsters and get mad when they get an evil monster to work as their attack dog.
No, you can get plenty mad at the Nazis, and you can get plenty mad at the antisemitic militia wearing shirts that said "6 million wasn't enough" that tried to kill Pence. There's a place for righteous Christian anger. People talk about "anti-fascists" when they really mean anarchists. My granddad was an anti-fascist -- he didn't protest them, he shot them on sight. All his buddies did likewise. Did the Germans of the 1930s have a hard time of it? you betcha. Was turning to Hitler the right move, oh no it wasn't and hell is filled with uncountable souls who followed tootbrush-stache into eternal damnation.
Imagine if the paranoid ramblings you listed here happened. That would be wild. Nazis aren’t a thing no matter how much you project them on everything. Trump isn’t some Nazi monster. There is no evil anti semetic plot by the right, especially while the left calls for the genocide of Israel. It’s always the people who want to kill everyone who disagrees with them that projects that madness on everyone else.
I love seeing on this subreddit people discover that Christians are not all the same, are not a monolith, and have varying views. Trump loving Christians are a vast vast vast minority of American Christians. They do not exemplify anything about our faith.
I learned today at least 70 to 80 million people are vast vast vast monitory today. Smh
>Trump loving Christians are a vast vast vast minority of American Christians. We will see in November!
“How did Christianity, a global religion, devolve into a dichotomy between two White Americans from the 20th century?” The premise for your question is dishonest. “Christianity” did not go from anything. It is a 2000 year old religion. Trying to boil down its complexities into your perceptions of two men is strange.
Don't blame Christianity for Donald Trump!
Why not? Christians got him elected.
This is not happening with Christianity worldwide. It's only in a certain faction of white American Evangelical Christianity, and unfortunately it tends to spread to some of our neighbors. But it is not actually part of Christianity. It's a political ploy.
Not just the US. The problems are different elsewhere, obviously, but Christianity has gone sour in Eastern Europe (Russia, Poland, Hungary, probably others, too) and places like Brazil, and certain countries in Africa. Granted, it's all about power and control in those countries as well.
The church is a bunch of people who think they need each other not God, it kinda devolves from there. Once you convince yourself God needs you, you are an extremist and truly worthless to any one including yourself.
There are Christians who have zero understanding of the core beliefs of Christianity. Conservatives of this type are terrified that the world and America are changing, and many want to bomb us back to I Love Lucy days. Trump, a completely morally bankrupt man, came along and barked idiotic things about Obama and immigrants. That gave a voice to the ignorant. So here we are.
Some of us are cold for God and some of us are hot for God. Both cold and hot water are useful. But then there are some who are lukewarm for God which makes them entirely useless. I can't stand to see hot and cold Christians attacking each other just because one doesn't accept the others world view. I personally am hot for God and so I'll always favor others who are hot for Him as well. Jesus made whips and drove everyone out of the temple who pretended to know God but surely did not. I am actually cold for those who don't know God and are in error but I am hot to those that do and are in error and refuse to fix their error.
How did we go from the Spanish Inquisition to Martin Luther? Christianity has been used and abused, been made to harm and help, to hinder and heal, since Day One. Trump isn't representative of anything new or different. There have always been charlatans who've seen pretend Christianity as a useful tool to assist their personal goals. Charlatans gonna charlat. Throughout history you've always been able to pick out phenomenal Christians and pretenders for convenience -- existing at or near the same time.
You're comparing a kids' TV show host from a different time to a presidential candidate. At the time Mister Rogers did that in 1969, the president was Richard Nixon, we were in a losing war in Vietnam, there were riots in the streets from coast to coast, and Jim Crowe was still enforced in some parts of the country. That was not an idyllic time.
I know a speechwriter who was on his 2016 campaign team. They said they switched from the secular financial backers to the religious ones because they felt it gave them the best chance to win. The religious sources wanted abortion outlawed because the church-affiliated adoption agencies were making huge money on fees, but demand far outstripped supply, and adopters were refusing to adopt babies with crack cocaine in their systems, so they needed more “suburban” babies. They also wanted to outlaw contraceptives for the same reason. Everything was built around that from that point. Most of the team was secular, so when news of the affair broke, they thought their whole campaign was game over. But most of their church voters just voted for whoever the church said to anyway, because they were afraid to question the church. That’s how Trump became thought of as a Christian figurehead.
As time goes on things will get “from bad to worse” before Armageddon comes. So buckle in and get close to our creator. Rely on Jehovah with all your heart. He will give you strength to cope with this world until his day of judgement.
It is called hypocracy. The 'faithful' choose what is convenient
Jesus said of His disciples: They hear His voice and follow Him and do what He says. They hear and keep the word of God and abide in Him to bear much fruit. They love Him and keep His commandments. They follow Him - where? To the cross!
Stop worrying about Trump or the news or whatever. Christianity is about Jesus. That’s it. Follow that. My 2 cents.
Trump is a president, mr rogers was a tv host. They are not figure heads of christianity.
“Christianity” is not really a cohesive thing, as much as some people (both Christians and non Christians) like to treat it as such and like to delineate firm boundaries and definitions. It includes within its umbrella people who have really hardly anything at all in common with each other in terms of their political beliefs, ideologies, or personal attributes. There have been communists who have been devout Christians, there have been Nazis who have been devout Christians, and obviously everything in between. If I know nothing about a given individual except that they claim to be Christian, I know virtually nothing about what kind of person they are like.
I live in a pretty Red area in VA. Many older folks and Red is the norm around here. I know we have many Trump supporters there but you hear no one talking about him and our church certainly stays well away from politics. If a prayer is offered and mentions any politicians it is to include those in congress, the president and those leading the country. Makes no difference who is in office. I'd not belong to a church that made it clear they were supporting one side only or one particular person. I want politics left out of our services and we are very good with this at my church.
Southern American evangelicals are a very loud portion that does not represent Christendom.
This getting confused between followers of Christ and weird USA culture war bullshit.
Donald Trump is quite successful with non-churched people or people who say they are evangelicals, but don’t go to church except Christmas and Easter. It’s a sign of a post Christian right if nothing more.
>How did Trump start to become more of a figurehead than than the legacy of Mr. Rogers? How did we go from "find the helpers" and a tacit command to be the helpers lead to support for a man like Trump Because professional any things goes unethical marketing has been used to sell trump and most people I guess can't critically think and descern what's true and what's false. And tbh Christians esp Fundamentalist ones seem almost incapable of admitting they are wrong even when they know that are and will ride the horse till it drops dead.. it's really sad to see the cult like blind follow of things observably evil like maga and it not being openly opposed by so many Christians. And the long term affect of this will be a huge blot on christianity as a whole not just the literalist. Already young people see all the greed and hatred coming from the churches.. They see Christianity infecting public life in their school witness Christianity inspired bullying of there queer friends etc etc etc. And in fact what they are seeing is a joke..
Because satanism went fron Marilyn Manson to Joe Biden
See: https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2024/03/28/europe/pope-washes-feet-maundy-thursday-intl
Trust me, there are scores of both in every church. I pastored 3 suburban churches in Pittsburgh during the pandemic. You want to talk about amplified dichotomy? Good Lord the church council meetings I had that erupted into shouting matches was insane. I remember one time shortly after George Floyd’s death, I preached on “love your neighbor as yourself.” I mentioned how that entire situation could have gone differently had people loved their neighbor as themselves. I also pushed that we too need to do the same and what it looks like in 2024. I got death threats for that. All because I wanted to encourage people to be loving. My response to the death threats were this “By threatening to take my life, are you loving me as you love yourself?” It pissed them off even more and thankfully they walked away. Seriously thought I may have lost my life right then
Christianity is only what happens in the popular and political culture of USA.....
Jesus didnt care much for politics.
The Social Gospel movement died the day Dr. King was assassinated, and it's been downhill ever since. The Religious Right staged a hostile takeover of SBC, broke up the Methodist, Episcopalian and Presby churches, and started a megachurch trend that began with christofascist Reconstructionist Rushdooney. I've done extensive research on this.
I have been reading the major and Minor prophets in the Old Testament. I'm currently reading Jeremiah. I'm learning that even during those times, it was the priests and prophets who caused God's children to go astray. Throughout all of Israel, this was the NORM, not the exception. They were a vile and wicked people, just as many Christians are today. So-called Christians are QUI🤠K to point out that the Old Testament is all about laws and because we are living under the new covenant of grace, the law doesn't matter. This seemed like a lie to me, hence my exploration through the Old Testament. If God doesn't change, then what laws of his has changed? What did I miss? The hypocritical irony of what those belief alone folks are saying can be spelled out by identifying the ACTUAL laws that matters to God in book after book, decade after decade. The laws that truly mattered to GOD (Yahweh... that God) were simple: Worship Yahweh only ( not money, not Baal), don't use his name to persuade people you are defrauding, stop lying and defrauding people, do not cheat or abuse widows, and children (especially those without fathers), and foreigners, don't abuse your position and use your position to cause harm. These are the laws that the people kept violating. These were the types of violations that brought out Yahweh's wrath. In book after book, it is "church leaders" and people who violate these very basic laws that God detested. And you know what, these are the same laws and expectations that today's Christians do not want to be held to!!!! So they scream "We're under grace" so they can continue walking in a lie, practicing hate and deception and leading others to do the same. They don't seem to catch that God doesn't change his standards. Like the folks in Israel at that time who went around saying / thinking that their birthright, armies, wealth, and geography could save them from God's justice, today's Christians who go around with the "I can hate people/ I can treat others like garbage" mindset will learn the hard way that Jesus meant what He said: "On that day, many will come to me crying 'Lord, Lord, I did this and that in your name,' but I will say depart from me...I never knew you." They are going to find that Yahweh is not a liar. If He said He doesn't change, He meant it!!! The same laws that mattered TO HIM back then will matter to Him forever and ALWAYS. He was concerned about vulnerable populations then and he is still concerned about vulnerable populations today! He was disgusted with liars and people who treated others like garbage back then and he is disgusted with people like that now! The prophetical literature in the Old Testament is so revealing of God's nature. Delusional people act as if grace is a new thing, and they teach what Paul said instead of what Jesus and Yahweh said. But grace has always been there. There is instance after instance of "...but if people would just stop doing these evil things, I will restore them." The same is true today. But like the church folk of old, people live according to the stubborn inclinations of their heart. They abuse their position and they abuse His reputation ( i.e. take his name in vain). Today's Christians and church leaders are no different than their equivalents in the Bible. The masses are maligned in their hearts and it shows up in their vote, their participation in trump rallies, and their social media posts.
Christians stopped worshiping God by the classical definition quite a long time ago, at least in the United States, and instead began worshiping Zeus in a Jesus T-shirt
This is what Matthew 7:21 is all about. Anyone can claim anything, and I say "Prove it" just like James 2:18.
The Church has been infiltrated by enemies of the Church who would seek it destroyed. While posing as sheep when really they’re ravenous wolves. They make changes, assumptions and justifications for their unbiblical and scriptural actions. (Look at Martin Luther for example).
The Christians of Trump follow a gospel of hate. They are not Christians and would probably be the first to crucify Jesus if he were to come back. They worship themselves.
They aren’t thinking. They are just following. The truth is they have no love for people that aren’t like them. Trump makes it easy for them to act on it.
During Rodgers time, or just before, there were also Klan members burning crosses, believing themselves to be the only pure and godly race. Horrible people have always existed. And knowing how powerful Faith is for true believers, it’s an easy way to power if you can somehow align your goals. If not, then you at least have to give that appearance. The easiest way to do that is to have the same enemies. And while actual Christians are supposed to love their enemies and not cast the first stone, by focusing on LGBT and abortion, it’s relatively easy to weaponize their faith and turn it into votes.
You answered your own questioned! Washing people’s feet has nothing to do with being a Christian. Being a Christian is being born again by the Spirit of God. Why the white guy washing a black man’s feet, why didn’t you say a black man washing a white mans feet? Trump is the one who actually loves minorities. Biden is the raciest! Look at his policies.
trying to compare a religion to "1" person outside of Jesus is going to fall short. as in the Bible, the people got their 'leaders' wrong all the time. Even King David is not perfect. Trump is by no means an ideal Christian (can't even name a book from the bible), but his approaching to doing things different from all the other politicians, and actually getting them done, made him stand out. there is the argument that Trump is Racist, but have you seen all the 'racist' things that [Biden have said?](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4m4_KibqaRU)
Trump is absolutely the farthest thing from a figurehead of Christianity that is absolutely absurd. It's really the opposite of anything.
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I mean, Christians have always existed on both sides. For example, while the Union army was proudly singing about how they were God's wrath being meted out upon the Confederacy, the Confederates were also citing the Curse of Ham to justify that "peculiar institution". What really happened, I think, is that the two visions of Christianity just sharply *diverged* around the 80s. On the one side, you got things like the Southern Strategy or the Moral Majority, where Republicans realized they could focus on winning over religious conservatives by intermarrying politics and religion, to a degree where it's hard to say whether the GOP is the political arm of Evangelicalism or whether Evangelicalism is the religious arm of the GOP. (This is actually related to the origin of the term "Judeo-Christian", which is basically just conservatives appropriating Judaism to claim they aren't the only ones who want things) But on the other side, you say people leaning into more humanistic arguments. Religious liberals are *still* absolutely motivated by our religious convictions, like Dorothy Day before us. But we're also less interested in imposing Christianity on society and support concepts like secular democracy. So you're left with a weird issue with perception. There are absolutely Christians and atheists on both side of the political spectrum, like how the alt-right was even founded by and for conservative atheists. But because only one side regularly talks about how faithful they're being to their religion in support of their policies, it's *very* easy to miss that fact.
Christians are still human, we make just as many mistakes as anyone else. Churches are supposed to be a hospital for the broken, not a country club for the elite. But that doesn’t mean the snobby country club types don’t exist. Support the ones that are doing it right and call out the ones that are doing it wrong (in truth and love, as Jesus would’ve). Flip tables if you’re called to it. But don’t paint everyone with the same brush. Every one on planet earth , regardless of religion , race, gender, sexuality or creed , is a hypocrite in something. Don’t hold it against people, but hold them accountable in love.
Because even most people who claim to be Christian don't believe in God and have made politics their religion.
This is just what Christianity has been for the bulk of history. This isn't new, just the names are different
Christianity goes from Mr. Rogers to Donald Trump the same way it went from Peter to Paul.
It hasn’t. There has always been Christianity for Christians and Christianity claimed by those who aren’t sanctified. Christianity is for the messy, the broken. It’s a shame that the lost and loud should have a platform. It’s a shame that we have lost sight of scripture to spare the modern world some offended. But God’s plan prevails. No matter what happens, Jesus has a throne in Heaven.
A lot of people like to idolize politicians. Me personally? They all are deeply flawed. To that end, vote for the person who has policies you like. As far as Trump, he’s not exactly someone we want to act like, but then again, I don’t know of any politician we should strive to act like. And as long as you don’t feel like berating me, yes, I will most likely vote for Trump in November. I know this is Reddit, where the left rules, but just giving you honest feedback. Is Trump the devil? He’s certainly flawed, but from a sin perspective and the flawlessness of Christ, we all are. So, the question. Can God utilize someone like Trump to do His will. I think so. So, just like any politician, if you are a Christian, we should pray that God guides them.
It doesn't surprise me at all that you would support a man who cheated on all of his wives the last a porn star be paid for sex. A man who advocates for violence. A man whose main concern is himself. It does not surprise me in the slightest that you would support a man like that.
Really cause you know me so well?
I know Trump is supporting Christianity well. If you wish to support a man who cheated on all of his wives the last with a porn star, he paid for sex all while claiming the words of Jesus are important, you may.
I’m not supporting him, I am supporting better policies than Biden’s.
>As far as Trump, he’s not exactly someone we want to act like Sentences like this strike utter fear into my heart. Why are we Christians speaking this way about a potential leader who's behavior is visibly wicked? When Adam sinned, he was ashamed and hid his nakedness. When we are tempted to use our God-given voices to life up a wicked leader, we say "I'm not electing a pastor!" The bible is full of examples of the dangers of following wicked leaders. Character matters. Ronald Reagan and John Paul II didn't win the cold war by passing laws, they used the power of the pulpit. "he’s not exactly someone we want to act like" -- pardon my french, but he's a fucking rapist, dude! Sure, him and Cosby are walking around free because of technicalities, but 'not exactly someone we want to act like' is... a wild way to phrase it. (and i don't wnat this come off as if I'm political or trying to defend a pro-choice politician, it's not about that)
I believe that God is in charge. It will be His will that will be done. I trust in Him. I don’t know what God intends or how His work will be done. To the extent I believe the policies are better for certain things, I vote for who does the best in that regard. I have zero faith in politicians. Zero. They are all sinners, but so am I. You say you are a Christian. Do you think that people found it unfathomable that God could work through the evil King David, or the murderer Moses? It’s well beyond us. We can only pray. Is losing your mind over a stupid election worth it? In another four years some other sinner will be in charge. Gods got this.
>Gods got this That is the source to peace in ANY era, and that's why I'm not really political. But this isn't about politics or voting, it's about using our voices in the here and now to minimize the sins of a leader who we hope will enact the policies we crave. > a stupid election I don't speak out against a rapist's wicked example to influence secular elections, but to save the elect -- every last lost sheep deserve a good shepherd to point them in the right way if they're willing to listen and able to discern. >God could work through the evil King David I expect God even worked through Hitler and Stalin, somehow or another, in ways you and I cannot comprehend. But their wicked examples led (and still leads) their unrepentant followers to a lake of fire.
Social media. Curated viewership with no real standard of quality. People are being polarized by what they see and it’s all for revenue (clicks = ad exposure).
I need more information to contrast the two figures. As far as I can tell neither of the two celebrity icons are mentioned in the Bible.
Before it was Mr. Rogers, it was the KKK, and before that, the people who did any manner of evil things over the last 2000 years. Doing things in His name doesn't mean you're actually doing something IN HIS NAME. Politicians lie and act like asses, I'm not worried until one seems wholeheartedly honest and everyone likes him. Then, I'll perk an ear.
So the question is how many lives did Mr.Rogers change and what was his delivery mechanism. It certainly wasn’t president of an entire nation. You get my point? Not everyone is a Jesus Christ. There was a Peter a John a Simon a Judas, Timothy Paul all different like snowflakes each with their own special trait
Simple, it didn't. There will ALWAYS be people who claim one belief system or another, it doesn't mean they are what they say. God has NEVER changed, nor will he. Btw, Mr Rogers was his own person, if he actually lived right by Jesus, that's between him and God.
Your comparison between Pastor Rogers and President Trump shows that you truly do not understand Christianity at all.
I can only see the Christianity that is in front of me. I don't care what the faith claims to be. I care about their words and actions.
Real! We need to bring that that love
I don't see how any real Christian could vote for Biden. It's like throwing away everything Christ died for. Making up a bunch of bizarre fantasies isn't a Christian solution to the serious problem of the threat to Christianity in America. The real bigotry is directed toward the finest Christians on the planet - Southern evangelicals. The black Southern Evangelicals may hold their nose and vote for Biden, but it's pretty easy to see that they're starting to come around. I don't know why the Democrats were so racist back in the 1950's and 1960's. We do agree that the segregationists were Democrats, right?
You do know that a lot happened after 1960 right. When David Duke voted in 2016 you know he didn't support the Dems right?
Are we talking about present day now? I thought we were still talking about segregated pools and private clubs? Maybe you're just jumping around to whatever you want to make whatever weird point you feel like making. It sounds like you fear masculinity. The thought of a person with a penis being in charge terrifies you. That's why you dream of a world where a milquetoast like Fred Rogers or Joe Biden is running things. That doesn't work too well.
I just find it odd that when I talk to people on the right about this topic they somehow want to live in a world where history stopped as of the 1960's. I have never laughed so hard, recently, as I did when I read your second paragraph. That was the funniest thing I've ever read. You are a baffling person.
Yeah. I don’t really accept the premise of the question. In short - it didn’t. You’ve created a false narrative and presented it as if it were just a fact. But it isn’t. Neither Mr. Rogers nor Donald Trump are in any way representative of Christianity as a faith tradition, Christians as a group, or Christian thought and practice. The truth is, Christianity is far more diverse in its representations than these two men, nevermind that I don’t believe Donald Trump is a Christian. When did atheism go from Robert Frost to Mao Tse Tung and Pol Pot? Answer? It didn’t.