Traditionally, control/stax folds to early aggression they can't answer. That's less true in EDH, but still often the case.
Stop them before they stop you.
In EDH it's more having (cheap) removal for the stax pieces that harm you, or cheap wraths for all the pieces (Nature's Claim and Seeds of Innocence, for example).
If the combo/stax player is greedy and has built a deck that cannot handle aggro...whoop em early and often.
It is just another kind of greedy deck building. Force your combo/stax player to run more removal/blockers.
I'm still new to EDH and MTG as a whole, so I suck at determining who the bigger threat is onboard. Though, your statement possibly explains some of the others' reactions when I seem to target someone who appears harmless.
That or they're wondering wtf I am doing LOL
We all start somewhere and you'll get better at threat assessment over time. A lot of times people will politic and try to persuade you to change your assessments, so always take it with a grain of salt. A card that's a major threat to you might not be a threat to someone else.
Taking a card they shouldn’t doesn’t fuck the whole table in blackjack. It’s just as likely to help people as it is to hurt them. Very common misconception by people with poor critical thinking skills.
Me at the table "look guys I'm helping us all by removing maximum hand size and letting you guys draw cards with this" *points to [[Folio of fancies]]*
I think this is a perfect response. I played a game yesterday with a draw discard commander (varina, lich queen for those wondering) and had [[archfiend of ifnir]] resolve. The token player swords’d my commander and generous gifted my other discard creature, then the next player swung at me for lethal. No feel bads, in fact that was probably the only way the entire table didn’t lose immediately.
Imo if the player complains about you stopping them from winning then they should maybe look into different formats where it is more acceptable to win as fast as possible like cEDH or 1v1 formats
There's nothing wrong with him having good threat assessment, and that's not even his issue. The problem is that the correct response to his threat assessment is....the same every game.
They are playing in a pod with the same decks repeatedly. And so everyone already knows the threats. The problem is that it's the same person every time. I'm not defending the blue player here or saying op should back off, just pointing out that the issue he's having is that the correct answer is the same every game.
Really, op is in the right and it's on the blue player to figure out an answer to how he can have fun in the established environment - it is not op's job to purposely play weak lines, though a talk about general competitiveness should probably also be had by the group.
This is a good response, i play blue in almost every deck. I counterspell, i steal your permanents, or i combo out. When I'm playing any of these strategies i tell the table beforehand that they should kill me if they don't like them. You just have to learn to have fun taking game actions if you play these decks. I basically never win, much less than 25% of the time. I still have fun and if I'm not in the mood to be targeted first I do have a Jeskai prowess deck and a vehicles deck that draws no early game aggro. If your blue player is fine with how the games have been going, and feel free to ask them, keep doing what you're doing.
My dirty little secret is I'll point to my most threatening cards when someone casts a removal spell, offering them up as a target in a show of good faith. Every once in a very long while I point to the wrong piece, or the piece that I think they're scared of instead of the actual threat, because I'm a jerk.
9 time south of ten, I'm telling people to target me or my stuff, because my decks tend to get on a roll. Once they get going, you need like 3 removal spells to actually stop them.
I play yarok and had a rune-scarred demon and massacre wurm on the battlefield with a deadeye navigator in hand. When the table decided they needed to kill my wurm instead of my demon I went oh noooo, then killed them on my turn. Oops.
They know I play some amount of blink. But they also know it’s primarily a combo deck. My friends aren’t the most competitive so I try to point out what I’m doing and what I’m trying to do with it as I go along, but I figured in this instance it was ok for them to learn by getting punched in the face.
Sometimes that's the best way to learn. I definitely get targeted more after a game like that, and it's definitely deserved and doesn't bother me in the slightest.
I have a nasty [[Toxrill]] deck that I know when I play it I'm getting killed first. It's full of ways to get him out cheap and protect him, you need to know that all removal is coming at him and there's a boardwipe being held up by someone.
If you play oppressive commanders be prepared to get battered, if you play oppressive decks be prepared to be battered.
Toxrill and Tergrid are always must kill first. They are 2 of the most oppressive Commanders in the game and if either of them get out with some protection they are usually winning. If the players playing them don't know this, then they need to reassess their Commander choices. In my large play group no one plays them as Commanders anymore as they know what will happen when they do. But some of us do play them in the 99 which everyone is fine with.
Not outwardly but they get visibly upset when they're not allowed to do "the thing". Which I get but it's always applicable to say their decks "the thing" is winning
If it bothers them, it's on them to step up and talk about it. You can ask, but don't assume too much about their feelings. They won't be willing to change their decks or style until they feel like it anyways.
It's a strategic move, kinda like taking out an Eldrazi or Slivers deck quickly before it has time to build. If you were targeting this player first just because you didn't like them it would be different but I completely understand going after blue control players first. Mid to late game they're a real pain to deal with
I think a lot depends on the end result of the games. If you’re consistently focusing them early, but also not winning you might want to reevaluate your strategy as well. I watched this happen in a pod where a person (correctly) identified that the control player would win if they weren’t kept in check. The problem is they spent so much effort trying to keep the control player from comboing off or getting too pillow fort-y that they basically gave the game to one of the other two players. Not exactly king-making, more like crab-bucketing. As a control player that can feel frustrating since the threat assessment is technically correct and incorrect at the same time. You may be right to keep the control player in check, but make sure you’re playing in a way that gives you the best chance at winning not the best chance at keeping them from winning. The two can coincide, but are definitely different.
Its Not about Power Level. Its a play style.. I like to play Combo decks too .. Prefered in orzhov or Black but blue is fine too... If you dont kill me early and i got my Board to Combo i win so his thread Assessment is good thats it...
Agreed. Like, if someone plays slivers, you spot remove everything they play, or you lose. Even if you’re at their power level, if you don’t kick them while they’re down, you deserve to lose
To a lesser extent it’s the same when I play jetmir. My goal is to get 8 creatures on the board, then drop jetmir and knock someone out of the game. And I will actively warn people of this. If they then let me count to 8 or above, that’s on them
My buddy runs an Winota deck and it's the same. I save every single removal spell for her even if it costs me momentum against the other players. I can perhaps stabilize against them, but not against her
Sorry but no. You got to Respekt the play style.. Dont care about colors. If any Deck is at the same lvl. One Deck wants to beat you to death the other wants to Combo of with infinite aristocrat for example you got to shut the aristocrat Player down before He can establish his boardstate... Otherwise you Lose..
Oh also you got to shut down the deck that wants to beat you to death, focusing on one playstyle to shut down and letting the other go nuts is frankly poor threat assessment and would certainly make me not want a game 2 with you
I dont know if its even power level, it seems like a genuine counter in the ethos of the decks. One probably plays midrange while the other builds to the killing endgame
I mean this is the right way to play. If I see you playing cards like Lotho I will also punch you into the sun because I don’t want you to be able accumulate resources using life. I play a lot of blue control decks and I don’t mind if you are targeting me down early game, that’s what you are supposed to do.
If he can hold up counterspells all game to only use defensively then the rest of the table needs to get their shit together. You should be playing offensive bombs that make him burn cards.
Blue will always win if you just leave them to do whatever they want all game, but that also doesn’t mean you need to throw literally everything at them.
If they’re sitting there holding cards and doing nothing, throw stuff at them. But if you’ve burned all their interaction and they’re down cards and tempo, maybe consider checking on the beat down player for a minute. It doesn’t have to be binary, your threat assessment should change throughout the game.
No fret. Had a game vs Child of Alara board wipe lockdown tribal. Even if they didn't win the first game, 2nd game you bet I focused the fk out of them since my deck can't function without a board.
Since this is someone you play against regularly and have seen their decks multiple times and know what they do, it’s a valid response.
I try not to judge someone I haven’t played before just because they sit down with something Blue or I think is likely to be Stax. But if you know that’s what it is is and how to beat it then why wouldn’t you?
As others have said, your threat assessment is good. If they regularly play that stuff, knocking em out quick is the only option. My pod has a guy who always becomes archenemy early in most of his decks. He also tends to go out first because of it since we have to focus him down. Nature of the beast... we joke about it because when we don't draw answers, he'll one-shot someone/all of us or simply hit his combo in sub-10 turns. His playstyle is simply go big or go home.
Our group vibe is one of "great game! let's go for another!" We enjoy it most when our decks "do the thing" and not necessarily tryhard winning every game, though.
Being targeted is the tradeoff for playing the best color in magic.
Don't feel bad. I just play blue because I like drawing cards. I don't care that I lose as long as I get to draw cards.
A common high tier strategy is to keep as low a threat level as possible revealed to the table and then softly apply pressure until you have an advantage.
Catch 22 is if u attack them u display power. And they only need to defend themselves to 'match ur power' so they NEVER seem to be the threat at the table... Unless ofc u can count to 2 islands and 7 cards in hand but most people cannot so that's something in your corner.
Indeed the solution is relentlessly swinging 2/2 at them every game until they concede that they need early game blockers... Which slows down their efficiency and sucks them into the combat quagmire.
Never stop attacking the person with the most islands ever.
Listen. I have a few decks like this and it sucks when I don't get to get away with it but that's the breaks. Blue players often get away with way too much nonsense. Kill us all.
Yeah, target them down. And if they ask why, tell them exactly what you put here. If they get salty and refuse to acknowledge that this is the correct play *target them harder*. If they understand, then I would let target them naturally based on threat assessment.
I'm so tired of chumps playing strong decks and then complaining when you target them. That's part of the game, if you don't want to be targeted, get a different hobby.
Or just a different deck. If the mono-blue counter spell player shows up with a big stompy Gruul deck, he's no longer the automatic threat. At least not for the same reasons.
>Lastly, to get ahead of the "you don't need to try to win every game" responses I might get here
Anyone who unironically thinks this needs redefine what it means to play a game.
Sure, you don't need to pubstomp everyone at the table every game, and you shouldn't either. And yes, you should not expect (let alone demand) to win every game you play (or even most).
But the purpose of a game is to win. If you're playing casually, the equal and other purpose is to have fun with the table, but still to win.
And as a blue player, I say it is not at all wrong to delete the blue player when you can. That's called threat assessment, and the threat isn't always just the one who LOOKS like a threat. If you let the blue player sit there, build up, and draw a lot of cards, then you're increasing the likelihood that they will have an answer to everything.
You're doing God's work. Pressuring non-board focused decks will force them to built their deck considering some board presence, finally making them play the same game as everyone else)
But jokes aside, don't just blame blue colour. I have couple blue decks with no counterspells, and no blue deck of mine uses more than 6 counterspells, as they are heavily focused on board presence. I also have a grull deck with 11 counterspells with the goal of making control deck's life a living hell.
[https://www.moxfield.com/decks/\_f6tzwuuOEG2so\_UwtRUHA](https://www.moxfield.com/decks/_f6tzwuuOEG2so_UwtRUHA)
I overestimated amount of counterspells, as there's only 6. But I do run a lot of 'nuh-uh' gruul cards.
You already answered your own question. Just kill them. You're playing a game where there's a strict objective, so play like you mean it.
If they don't like it, they can change their deck. You don't have any control over what they do. You only have control over what you do.
Perhaps more importantly, let everyone else at the table know what's up every game.
I played Kaalia once and everyone killed me first. I never played Kaalia again.
It makes perfect sense to kill the strongest deck first. That's literally the point of the game.
After a Piper deck spent 15 minutes trying to stack 21 damage on their commander to hit me, but only managed to get to 20 after all those random ass dice circled the board I felt that you can target blue players whenever.
As that type of player but who would still win often, I just found a different playgroup after a while because it was less of a pain in the ass.
It's not fun being a target simply based off the past. I even decided to power down my decks but this one dude would just insta-target me right away no matter what, even though he was the one that asked me to. I called him out and asked why, trying to explain how shitty my new deck was and even offering to show it to him, but he was almost obsessive about it and wouldn't have it.
Aren't there cards out there that are just not affected by blue , or enchantments that give all your cards resistance to blue ? That would be a fun deck lol 😆
I play blue in every deck period If someone wasn't prioritizing me I'd be offended. You're not playing the best color to fold the second shit gets even the slightest bit tricky.
If you like and respect your friend you'll treat him like the threat he is
Are you winning the games you focus them down? If you consistently don‘t, maybe your threat assessment isn‘t actually correct. If you do, you‘re playing the game properly so there‘s really no reason to complain.
If I was a beatdown player and one of my opponents spent their entire game focusing the control player down I would be very happy. If you can focus down a control player while not being threatened by the beatdown player there‘s either a massive difference in power levels or the beatdown player is considerably worse at the game.
Point being, nobody can tell you if your decision is correct without actual context. You can do whatever you want in the game so technically nothing is „wrong“ as long as it‘s allowed. Making mistakes and wrong threat assessment are part of that.
Always kill the stax/control player first, because they will win the long game and it will be a miserable 3 hours (if you're that lucky) you're not wrong in that, player removal is best removal
I'm a combo player too (Breya is a combo deck, Amareth runs combos), we need to be taken out early.
Group hug and chaos take player agency out of the game and/or help accelerate opponents (especially bad if an opponent is on combo). Targeting them first also, hopefully, dissuades them from playing those decks again.
You attack the hug and chaos players first because they have the least ability to defend themselves, so you can finish them without being at relative disadvantage to the rest of the table. Same goes for combo.
If you understand how some decks or colors work, it's not wrong to go with the methodology road. It's a thoughtful process.
The challenge is to explain your thinking to said player, and he/she be logical and gracious enough to accept this reasoning.
Good players who understand threat assessment will offer their hand or praise/respect this line of play. It's either you take them down or they take over the game.
This is your playgroup, these are your friends. Explain to them why you assess threats this way. You already know their decks.
But give your friend a chance to change. Let him brew something new, less oppressive, and give it the benefit of doubt once or twice. Then if the new deck proves to go just as oppressive as his others, put him into target zone once again.
If you’re killing them then they should have more on deck to effectively stop you from doing so. Skill issue, simple as. If they don’t want to die immediately they shouldn’t pose a threat.
Blue players should be honored to know that they’re first on the hit list lol I either consider you, your deck, or both to be at a high level. The only time this doesn’t hold true for me is when the person playing blue is someone I know and I know they’re not good at playing blue lol. Any competent blue player is a threat, especially mid to late. Gotta’ take ‘em out.
Im a lot like you OP where i have friends and when they play certain decks, i know i need to stop them early. The good thing is that they are friends and they are aware that once they get out of hand, they snowball and stop the game with stax/control. I have made it abundantly clear that if you run stax/control, i will target you or use removal on your pieces. I like to play multiple games, not just sit for 3 hours stuck in a control match.
They completely understand. Sometimes we have games where they get knocked out very early and sometimes we have long control games where we all stare at our phones until its our turn. We all understand how the games may go. Can't win them all. Won't enjoy them all. Just talk to them and respect each other. understand its all just a game. no hurt feelings.
This is not an issue of him playing blue. This is an issue of him playing a deck that needs to get focused down to be defeated. Blue decks can be aggressive and dynamic to play against. It seems to me that you are just judging threats well and ending the stax player before they can assemble their win con. Perfectly reasonable and expected. Maybe if this annoys you so much, you might want to talk to them about changing up the type of deck that they play.
I used to struggle with feeling bad for "targeting" the threat at the table lol. As time went on and frustration built up that went away. At the end of the day if you are running certain things you should be expecting to be doubt with accordingly. We are all playing a game that we would rather win lol.
I know the struggle. We've got a primarily blue control player always playing what seems like triple the removal of everyone else. If your wincon is win the game by doing X and there's one player that reliably messes with that then your actual wincon is:
1. Protect your win from blue player
2. Go for the win
Some games this means you can get by with a [[Prowling Serpopard]] before your creature combo. Maybe you can surprise them with one more counterspell than they thought you could muster. It might just be that smacking them for 40 damage before they can stop you is the way to go. If they don't like it, they'll change up their deck and then they'll have other weaknesses to exploit (or not and your meta has balance issues).
If your threat assessment is correct it's not wrong. However I will say be careful with game memory, I've had games where I play something janky and get countered into oblivion because people remember the last game where I was a huge threat with another deck.
Just assess every deck and game individually and don't prejudge a deck based on the player.
Killing the blue player first is the only way is Green/Red/X players can have any wins. If we let them untap enough times they just win. Don’t let them untap that many times
Threat assessment varies. You can start off going after the blue player as all things should be considered equal but if you are irrationally gunning for them even though another player at the table clearly has threats ... then you are inappropriately targeting the blue player.
Threat assessment, killing someone just cause blue is poor assessment, killing someone cause they’re threat is good assessment.
The thing is you want to make the blue use counters on other people or better yet play blue yourself to stop them 🤷♂️
You likely feel as you do sue to a power imbalance in the pod at which either A. You power up to match B. They power down to match or C don’t play with them or D play and keep having feels bad
Its really a difference of perspective. I think this is kinda funny because I appreciate the blue control deck that removes a threat that I'm not able to deal with. The same goes for stax, if they hinder my other opponents more then it hurts me I'll welcome the stax deck in the pod with open arms 🤷♂️🤷♂️
Send your damage to where it’s going to be highest impact. Sometimes that means taking out the player with the strongest deck, sometimes that means targeting the player harming your strategy the most.
When I play age of empires with my friends.. if I'm the byzantines, I must survive the early attempts to kill me. Because everyone knows that I'm very dangerous late game.
This is a normal and acceptable game style and application of game theory.
If they get frustrated with this, they will change their deck to be more balanced to defend early... Thereby removing your early threat but also weakening their late game. You and other players may respond in kind.
This is good dynamics, imo. And good deck building.
Did you ask if you’re wrong for playing to win in a competitive TCG? No. The only people that would tell you otherwise are sore losers that should build better decks.
Just kill what you feel is the biggest threat to you winning the game
I have a lot of Green decks with big creatures/tokens and I pretty much always try to focus down blue players first so that I have a good runway to build my board out like crazy with fewer unanswerable threats to my pieces.
I don't know what specific cards everyone has so I just assume that they are either going to stax, counter or mess with me at instant speed in ways I don't have answers for vs other pieces of the color pie.
It's not that I'm always try to target Blue, it just depends on what deck I'm playing a threat assessment of the table situationally.
What are you and the other players in your pod playing such that the *only* viable answer for The Blue Player is to pre-emptive murder them with player removal every single game? Play blue yourself and get into a counter war over their important spell. Play some stax that makes it harder for them to protect their combo-kill. Work together to remove their combo threat through their defenses. Play threats of your own that force the Blue Player into using some of their disruption so it can't be hoarded for the combo attempt. Talk to them about perhaps reducing their reliance on combo-kills and instead opting for a strategy thats more linear or exponential but fundamentally finite. There has got to be a better solution than making Blue Player into the Archenemy for reasons other than power level every game.
You should assess your threats dynamically. If you only focus them then you’re just leaving the door open for everyone else.
I used to play a mono blue deck and one guy would make it his mission to kill me first every game, so I countered everything he did because I knew the other players were going to be more chill. He got madder and madder but why should I let him play if he’s only going to kill me?
If you make the game unfun for someone then you can’t complain if they do it back.
If his strategies of building slow controlly games gets taken out by a fast aggro deck then that's how the balance works.
You put your eggs in one basket, I'm not going to get upset when someone kicks it over.
As a sometimes blue player, not a control deck but a fun extra turns deck. Yes we should be dealt with quickly and severely because if not it gets out of hand.
There was a guy in my pod who literally only ever played a Wyleth deck. I had a specific sideboard for some of my main decks of just mass artifact hate. His deck was good, but the thing I hated was playing against it every time. Eventually other people did some similar stuff and he made more than one deck.
Said this before and I'll say it again..
If you target me or my stuff it's because it's a theat. If it's a threat that means I'm playing well. It's a compliment.
As others have said, it's not about them playing Blue. It probably feels like it because they protect their board state with counterspells, but that's just one of many ways to protect your board state.
That said, you're not wrong either. You have identified that given enough time the player you're talking about will obtain a board state that you cannot brute force your way through, and they will have enough protection for that board state to maintain it and win the game. There are a number of ways to combat this, and attacking them early and often is one of those ways.
Just be aware that this also leaves you open to attacks yourself from the rest of the table. Don't be surprised if the other player starts politicking with the rest of the table to kill you first instead, as you will look like the aggressor. State your piece as well as you have here, and you might get an ally. But it might not work every time either.
Also, there are different axis to fight on aside from just attacking them first. If they use counterspells as the main way to protect themselves and interact with the board, it might be time to play a tiny bit of stax yourself. \[\[Teferi, Time Raveler\]\] and \[\[Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir\]\] both stop your opponent from playing at instant speed and effectively turn off counter magic. You might also try something like \[\[Deafening Silence\]\], which would only allow them to counter one spell turn, or even \[\[Rule of Law\]\] which only allows everyone to cast a single spell per turn. If you're not in white/blue, you can always try \[\[Veil of Summer\]\]. It replaces itself when cast (assuming you cast it in response to your opponent casting a counter spell), and prevents your stuff from being countered for a single G mana. If you're in red and want a nuclear option, there's always \[\[Obliterate\]\]. Other than that, we'd need to know specifically what decks you play to give you more specific suggestions.
Might be better strategically to let it get to the late game when they're obviously the archenemy, and then work together with the other two players to take them out. That way, it doesn't cost you all your resources and leave you at their mercy once the blue player is gone. Taking out the big threat is good, but don't do free labor for your other opponents.
_Am I wrong to kill the ~~blue~~ player into the sun?_
The point of the game is to eliminate the other players. Threat asses and try to win. Do those things and you're fine.
Said player knows that they’re doing with their deck choices in your local meta, they know that they’re putting a target on their head unless they build/play something new and different.
If they’re deck choices are making your experiences not fun, then either kill them first or ask them to play something different - you could even offer to lend them a deck to play so they offer something different to the pods experience.
As the resident blue \[control\] player: the blue deck must be able to protect itself to bring it to the late game. Besides talking to them you might want to tell them the principles of your threat assessment (basically what you wrote here) and that a random redditor suggested they bring more early protection.
Your actions are logical, though. If you need to prevent late game from happening this is what you do. It's inevitable and unfortunately it's on your buddy to do something about their decks or play style in this case. Something you both can do is some politics; you promise safety and they promise to not touch your stuff. If their deck is symmetrical there's nothing you can do about this, though. There's simply no room for politics which, again, isn't on you but on the player playing symmetrical effects.
Lastly you could also see what you can learn from swapping decks. It's usually an eye opener for everyone involved.
I try to follow two rules in situations like this:
"Don't hate the player, hate the deck", and "Don't let one game's loss roll over into the next game's decisions."
Assessing a deck's potential and strategy is an important part of the game. In 1v1 Modern, I would expect no tears if I were to play Burn and someone pouts after Birds of Paradise gets Bolted. Similarly if someone is playing a Baral Counterspell deck in EDH, they deserve a Gruul-fueled punch to the face before they play a permission-control game.
Additionally, sometimes people do genuinely have better deckbuilding decisions. If cost is truly the main factor here, then they are buying consistency, not wins. Plenty of $2000 decks can lose to a $50 well-crafted combo deck. I have spoken with some players who consistently beat me and they give me tips on why some cards belong and some don't depending on the Commander (and also don't feel bad, it is often an honor to be taken out first under the expectation of being the biggest threat).
Take, for example, [[Svella, Ice Shaper]]. She's a 3-drop Commander who plans to flood the board with ramp, then (for my deck) she helps spurn out obscenely giant creatures. So for a commander with 3 CMC and a 3-costed ability, why was I ever running Cultivate and Kodama's Reach? I should NEVER cast them when I have a 3 CMC commander.
Just an example. There are thousands of cards out there. Sometimes a cheaper, less popular swap is more ideal for your game plan and win condition.
And I agree with your last comment: if you are playing a game, *you should be trying to win*. A Grouphug deck where everyone draws cards but you don't attack just rewards people with better deck consistency. A Stax deck that can get OG Vorinclex on turn 4-5 is pure suffering. Politics is a valid strategy, but the politics that goes on beyond a single game is often undervalued.
As a blue player this is 100% valid, they need to be doing more to prevent people from getting to a point where it's an option to kill them in the first place. Just generally having a greater ability to control the early game will almost always be more valuable to a control strategy than being overbearing in the late game because if you've has complete control over the first 5 or 7 turns, the chances of anyone being able to dig themselves out through later game control pieces (think Toxrill, Gravepact, Consecrated Sphinx).
TLDR; they suck at playing control in EDH and want to guilt trip people into letting them win so they don't actually have to improve as a player and deck builder
You're definitely in the clear here. If they don't want to pull as much aggression from the table, they need to change their gameplan. If they want to survive early game better, they can add more defensive oriented cards to disuade attacks, rather than punishing the entire table.
There are players who like to bring strong decks to the table and I think they’re usually pretty understanding about getting targeted (or killed into the sun, as you put it). If you can dish it out you’ve gotta be able to take it too.
Just sounds like proper threat assessment to me. If you see them getting pieces in place and know how that player plays then yeah you're doing the right thing. For example, I run a [[kami of the crescent moon]] deck that takes time to get going. It makes everybody draw cards (to speed the games up because I hate slow games) but it doesn't pop off for a little while because I need a couple pieces in place to go crazy. If you targeted me turn 1 because I'm mono-blue that's not proper threat assessment. But if you saw me getting pieces in place or trying to and shifted to taking me down sure, I get it. I say this because we have a player in my pod that does that and it drives me crazy. If I play Kami he targets me turn 1 because, "if you're letting everyone draw cards you're up to something". In the end it sounds like you're in the right.
It sounds like you stated the answer already and are ignoring it to get feedback from Reddit. "You don't need to win every game."
If what matters most is winning, keep doing what you're doing. If you care about your friendships, make sure they are not having a bad time every game, and consider switching it up if they are. If they are okay with being targeted, then keep it up. Some people like being the archenemy.
Surely there is some middle ground between not needing to win and intentionally throwing games. I don't care about winning but I prefer being beaten by someone who played better instead of losing because I "let" them win
It's all fun and games until their forced to select more targeted pieces for your focus. Sure it might decrease their chances against others but it will for make you unhappy as they are being focused. Threat assessment should be by board states and paying attention to what people are doing (as well as certain commanders), not by potential end game. Of course if it's deciding where to send your spare creatures and have leeway sure, but to full on focus from the get go can lead to some serious issues down the line. I have a wide variety of deck types and decks so I doubt this will ever be an issue for me but if I had someone were to do this to me I'd make sure that neither of us will be having fun if that's the mindset they come at me with.
I often play decks like this and I don’t take it personally. It’s often times the right move and in general if someone else is trying to win and they think they need to take me out then that’s their decision to make - fine with me!
In 60 card formats there is a question a lot of decks will ask themselves 'am I the beatdown' and what it means is "do I win in the long game" you have worked out that you do not win the long game and thus you are the beatdown in this situation.
So you can either channel your early aggression at the long game decks and win or give them the time they need to bear you and lose.
Make your choice, a competent long game deck devotes a certain amount of space to not dying so there is that too.
Agree with most of the others. I usually just explain it like a compliment to their deck. If I don't take you out early then I will die to your deck late game. You don't have to make them feel bad but they need to find the right decks to get past your early harassment. It's part of the meta. Red goes fast, if they don't win early then they lose to other colours late game (obviously this has been fixed more and more through the years but that's the general idea). Blue wants to survive through the early game so they can get to a late game combo or some other wincon.
I have a friend who plays late game combos and a lot of sessions he just dies to ppl attacking because he leaves his board open with few or no blockers. Deck balance means planning for all stages of the game.
Playing blue here and there and I agree; hit them before they become a problem.
The Zaffia deck I copy so much I feel like I'm cascading.
I make decks that are so over my friends skill level and deck power they single me out along another player for being too strategic.
It's fun for us too
When I play Blue, it's usually with bounce effects and mill, not counters. But I'm still the one who gets targeted the most. So I lean into it, play the scene-chewing baddie, and we all have a good time.
Yes. Every true blue and or combo player would agree you need to kills us.
If they can't take the heat either they play something more chill or learn to play more removal and blockers instead of endless counters.
You dont need 20+. 5 - 10 suffices most decks. You dont fire a counter unless someone is about to win, or plays something that gives them an insourmable advantage. Or they're stopping your combo. Everything else is the tables problem to deal with.
It's definitely not wrong what your doing. I have a nasty Mono Black Aristocrat deck. This is one of my pet decks that has $1000+ with 75+ played games into the deck, and my group knows that there is a time limit on the game and if they don't focus me first, even when I don't look threatening (This is how the deck wins the most, is it look super innocent, and then I win) they MUST focus me over anyone else, I will most certainly get to my 4th-6th turn and say "I win". But when I play this deck I am okay with them targeting me, and will even tell people that I am always the threat, It is one deck with our play group that has the highest games/win rates out of our collective 100+ decks.
So if a player has built a strong or oppressive deck and they + their play group knows it, they honestly shouldn't be upset for being targeted first and if they do get upset by this they should rethink the kind of decks they are making/playing. They should take it as a honor that they built a badass deck, at least that's how I do.
You know their deck well enough to know how to beat it, and that's what you did, so I don't anything wrong with it.
My friend has a [[Zaxara]] deck that typically wins on turn 6 or less (it's not cEDH) with help of tutors. It's a deck that he whips out if he just wants to win. Now whenever he plays that deck, I'd take out my strongest deck to try to counter it (usually one with blue).
Maybe group slug is a better term for it? Nearly every permanent causes people to discard for every action taken, deals damage per discard, or forces edicts repeatedly
Well, this kind of pressure is needed to balance out the game. Staying out of focus is a good strategy, sometimes you want someone else to be a problem to the table, so you are left alone. Having to stay alive facing aggro changes the deck and gameplan a lot, so at some point their decks may adapt to not die instead of turbo stax/prison/control and give you some time to focus anywhere else.
We have this problem on board my ship with a player and his [[Miirym]] deck. Any time I have a chance to take him out of the game, I take it, because far too many times I've been nice when he's been behind and allowed him to play the game one more turn.
At which point he flips [[Genesis Ultimatum]] into [[Scourge of Valkas]] and [[Dragon Tempest]] with his commander out, and immediately kills me will all the triggers.
He is annoyed that we complain about him playing his dragon deck because if we don't target him, he wins the game very easily very quickly if he untaps with his commander on the board.
Same thing goes for someone who plays [[Kaalia of the Vast]]. I don't count any game I get [[Master of Cruelties]] KO'd by as a loss, because I write it off as a scam and just start reshuffling and switch to my [[Breya, Etherium Sculptor]] deck. Other players dislike me playing it because it's a very tuned, consistent deck, but my argument is if I'm up against other T1 commanders I'm going to play a stong deck, especially one that plays cheap kills like Kaalia + MoC. I'm the same way. I don't mind losing, but when I lose because of a scam or because I play nice and get punished for it, I just revert to "don't be a nice guy, kill the threat."
There's nothing wrong with having one color you mainly pivot around, all of my decks include green because it's easier to collect cards that way, but there's a lot of ways to punish blue, try turning up the tempo
My 11 yo step son has a hydra deck and if I let him get out of control he just one shots everyone. So I didn’t feel bad for punching him with 12 infect on turn 4. He just sat there in disbelief. My wife ended up winning the game. But still funny that he was talking all this shit only to humbled on turn 4.
My 11 yo step son has a hydra deck and if I let him get out of control he just one shots everyone. So I didn’t feel bad for punching him with 12 infect on turn 4. He just sat there in disbelief. My wife ended up winning the game. But still funny that he was talking all this shit only to humbled on turn 4.
I certainly think you should try your best to win every game. But I would question that threat assessment: usually the decks that dominate the lategame are slow value decks. To keep a control deck from becoming unstoppable all you need to do is remove their draw engines.
I think it's important to understand how strong your deck is comparatively. I've got multiple styles of decks that range in power, so some decks make me into an instant threat while others play more like group hug to give me some breathing room if I get tired of being targeted first. If your friend is playing stax and blue counterspells and is getting upset about being hit first it sounds like they need to change up their playstyle a bit tbh or just accept that they need to be eliminated first.
Don't feel bad just had a game where I had to explain that drawing 18 from notion thief while playing a Tivit deck pretty much forced us to kill him before it got back around or we were 100% screwed for the rest of the game.
Honestly trying to explain how good card advantage is actually is mind blowing. Ps if your playing Tivit and want to pretend it's a "voting" deck and then proceeded to make us choose between two shitty options is not cool or interactive voting its just annoying
I kinda learned the hard way that when you play certain decks you'll have a target on your back as soon as the game begins. Don't feel bad targeting with hard to stop decks. Yeah it can suck being the target early but that's the game. I love blue and run it in most of my decks and am trying to prevent you from playing period. If I'm the target from go, I gotta git gud or try to come up with a strategy to counter that. Sometimes it feels like we're playing kick me while I'm down instead of magic. Is what it is. Learned new ways to play from it even. Play your game and don't worry about everyone else, they're probably doing the same
It's really not about them being "the blue player", that isn't actually meaningful here. What *is* meaningful is that you've identified a threat that you believe needs to be addressed and are doing so. If your belief is correct then this is sound strategy.
Your friend needs to adapt his decks to the meta! This means being ready for early aggression and believe it or not, this is actually pretty easy in mono-blue!
**Blue “boardwipes” have an argument for being the BEST in the game.** Better than white or black even. Why? Blue boardwipes don’t care about your indestructible. Blue boardwipes are also often either one-sided or when symmetrical are so blue favorable that it might as well be one-sided.
For example, [[wash out]] is just fucking BRUTAL in most games since everyone will play with at least 2 colors you will always bounce at least 2 players.
[[consuming tide]] wrecks tokens, enchantments, mana rocks. It’s a complete reset that will also draw you cards usually since mono-blue usually has less board presence.
[[curse of the swine]] is easily one of the best exile spells in the game. (Don’t even get me started on [[imprisoned in the moon]], one wicked wicked commander removal spell.)
[[spectral deluge]] is just fucking horrible to everyone not named “you.” Totally one-sided madness. They have *maybe* one turn to put down their best pieces, but if you can leave even one mana open for something like [[an offer you can’t refuse]], then they’ll only play their second best card. This is a wicked wicked combo.
[[displacement wave]] is great for sweeping those early cast commanders and quick aggro pieces. It’s useful beginning, middle, and end.
And of course, who could forget [[cyclonic rift]] blue’s most infamous wipe and for good reason. You know it. You love it. I don’t need to say anything about it.
And all of these don’t even take into account count the less one-sided wipes or the direct control such as [[devastation tide]], or [[cryptic command]] which if you wait until the end of the first main let’s you either (1) counter a spell and tap down all of the player’s creatures or (2) tap down all of the player’s creatures and draw a card. Value. Also, [[aetherize] is fun but lower than the others on the value train since it’s a player to player effect but it works here since you are his threat.
There’s waaaay more. Mono blue has massive board control when you understand that blue doesn’t care about killing while on the board. Blue kills during the cast. If he incorporates some or all of these, then he’ll have a much more enjoyable time playing against you.
There’s way more, but I run these in my mono-blue deck. Adding these into my deck has made my mono-blue one of the most competitive at my table.
*As it turns out, it’s hard to kill the blue player with all your permanents in your hand.*
What kind of response is "you don't need to try to win every game?" Magic is a game with a defined objective - winning. If targeting the blue player is necessary, go for it.
Killing the player by the time you need to kill them or lose is totally valid.
Not blue necessarily but a 5 color Garth 1 eye player who plays gate victory who had 3 gates in play and an otherwise empty board and then played the 9 mana sorcery to go search up 10 gates and won upon resolution. I didn't play blue so I had no chance to interact. The entire game was essentially meaningless up to that point when he did that.
Now that deck dies before it gets to 9 mana if I'm not playing counter magic. Sorry, not sorry that I have to kill you before any point in the game you can just rip an I win button from hand matter the board state or anything else.
I'm also not playing "I at all times need to have a counter spell for the insta win card that is otherwise not interactive" because the win condition is a land.
You do need to try to win every game. Everyone should be playing to win. You just should not expect to win every game and you should handle defeat with grace. Anyone saying they aren't playing to win in my opinion needs to be removed from the game, because odds are their plan is to stax the game to the speed of molasses.
I've told the friend that plays stax that I will be attacking them till they stop me. Because that is all their deck is meant to do is lock the game up. So their most vulnerable state is early on, and they typically have a low creature count, so you have to go then.
Often times we don't swing at the people with little or no creatures as it makes a feel bad moment. But if they are playing a low creature count deck, then the only way to make that change is to show they need to be able to defend themselves.
This is exactly how I play all of my games. I look like a weak little baby until im unstoppable, then no one can do anything. I never tell my play group to murder me, but I take any amount of hard targeting with utter grace because its the smart move. I’ve even had to explain to other people unfamiliar with our play group that my friend hard targeting me when I had the lowest life and no creatures was the right thing to do. They thought I was getting bullied until I played {Darksteel Forge}, {Portal to Phyrexia} and {Triplicate Titan} all in one turn for free.
That’s just the game. If you allow the blue control/stax player to get into the late uncontested, you’re almost guaranteeing them the win. Don’t feel bad about stopping them, when you’re trying to reach the same goal. Let them adjust and play aggro for once instead. Could be a learning experience for him.
Threat assessment is threat assessment, that's all there is to it. If the stax player is winning by making the game unplayable, play the game before he can. Be the gruul player, be the burn player, or beat him at his own game, go orzov life tax. Very few blue combo decks stand to the might of life tax my guy. Whip out the souls sisters, elis IL khor, khmbal as commander with teysa in the 99, be a full degenerate. I have an orzov deck list you might be interested in, my pod calls it the government for a reason.
As a blue player, I’d be offended if you didn’t. 😂
Blue has some of the cheapest and overpowered response cards in Magic. So unless they’re throwing them around like dice, they should be able to take one person over-targeting them. Comes with the territory of being the control guy.
I am the oldest player in my play group and also to one who's been playing the longest. I am the target for most of our games, unless someone gets a really explosive start, but I don't mind people focusing me. Sure it's a bit annoying if I get a slow start, and have issues with mana or something (happens to us all), but most of the time it's the correct decision.
If a player plays a lot of stax/control style decks, they should also be aware that they will have to carry a bullseye on their chest for most games. Either alter your deck to handle it or accept the fact that not every game will go accord to your plan. It's part of the game.
As someone else said earlier, threat assessment is a major part of mtg and it's one of the hardest things to learn. Almost anyone can watch a screenshot of a boardstate and recognize the strongest board, but so much more goes into it than just who has the strongest board in a vacuum.
As a final statement, keep focusing the stax player and don't feel bad.
As a blue player who lovea the setup game; don't be afraid to kill someone into the sun before they can set up. We (blue player who run control stuff) are choosing that deck, and part of that choice is accepting that when your victory condition is controlling the way the game is played, your deck becomes high on the threat list.
Personally, I avoid salt by being honest as I can be about what my deck does, so the only time I get upset is like when I'm running a "just for fun" deck and for some unholy reason, people just assuming I have the most oppressive goodstuff packed in or w/e
You absolutely should not feel bad. It's called knowing your enemy, and establishing threat levels. If that particular player is always the threat then he should understand that, or become less threatening lol.
Blue has trouble winning multiplayer. A lot of their cards are 1 to 1 trades. What you really need to do is answer the card draw engines or spells they are using. It's the need to refuel that offers you a chance to stop them. If you don't have stack level interaction, use things like \[\[Paralectric Feedback\]\], \[\[Bowmasters\]\], things like that. And entire hand discard (\[\[Persecute\]\], \[\[Thought Distortion\]\]). If you're creative you can clip their wings without needing to just turn your creatures sideways at them each chance you get.
This isn’t all blue. I’m a proud blue mage and no not every deck needs a fucking Stasis effect or 20 counterspells. We call that degenerate. I play blue cuz I love drawing cards and playing cantrips and Octavia is my girl. Just know not all blue players are twats.
I do this a lot too because I have to be aware of a potential counterspell coming out of nowhere to mess up something else. I benefit a lot more from removing that possibility ASAP.
>I don't want to make them feel bad for their deck choices,
if they choose a KOS deck, then they deserve to be KOS
>Lastly, to get ahead of the "you don't need to try to win every game" responses
fuck anyone who says that shit, the point of the game is to try to win, do it in a healthy way, and you'll be ok.
you don't play a game hoping for second place.
and to counter anyone replying, I CLEARLY SAID "do it in a healthy way"
The best removal is player removal. You don't need to fight through all of their stax trying to land removal against their stax pieces whem you can just kill them instead. Anyone who plays stax or any other similarly difficult to handle game states should understand they will get targeted to be killed, since that is often the easiest way for the rest of the table to remove their stuff.
Work on your rule 0 conversation
You need to outline how their deckbuilding choices force you to play so differently, that's it's constantly affecting your (and likely the rest of the pods) gameplay in a way that you don't find fun.
Offer them a non-blue deck to borrow, or consider offering new commander ideas for them to build for next time.
Either that or you can build decks that are efficient at dealing with their nonsense in response to them playing full control. Decks that can play through counterspells or stax exist. Many decks have spells that since "X Can't be countered" or have so much recursion a few counterspells won't matter. I'm also sure playing your own stax pieces like [[defense grid]] would completely ruin some counter heavy decks.
Eventually, once they realize you pull a certain deck that halts their solitaire gameplan, they adapt and play someone different.
This is just tradition. I don’t feel bad about it when I mercilessly go after the blue player, nor when I am the blue player getting dogpiled.
You reap what you sow.
This is called "threat assessment" and it is part of the game. Don't feel bad about it.
Traditionally, control/stax folds to early aggression they can't answer. That's less true in EDH, but still often the case. Stop them before they stop you.
In EDH it's more having (cheap) removal for the stax pieces that harm you, or cheap wraths for all the pieces (Nature's Claim and Seeds of Innocence, for example).
If the combo/stax player is greedy and has built a deck that cannot handle aggro...whoop em early and often. It is just another kind of greedy deck building. Force your combo/stax player to run more removal/blockers.
I think that the most you can do is justify your aggression towards them with the explanation you've given. Seems like the correct thing to do, to me.
Its kind of funny that bad threat assessment by one player is like someone taking a card they shouldn't in blackjack, it fucks the whole table.
I'm still new to EDH and MTG as a whole, so I suck at determining who the bigger threat is onboard. Though, your statement possibly explains some of the others' reactions when I seem to target someone who appears harmless. That or they're wondering wtf I am doing LOL
We all start somewhere and you'll get better at threat assessment over time. A lot of times people will politic and try to persuade you to change your assessments, so always take it with a grain of salt. A card that's a major threat to you might not be a threat to someone else.
Taking a card they shouldn’t doesn’t fuck the whole table in blackjack. It’s just as likely to help people as it is to hurt them. Very common misconception by people with poor critical thinking skills.
Threat assessment is a cruel bitch. I help take care of the threat, then I'm the threat.... I do go a little hard admittedly.....
Me at the table "look guys I'm helping us all by removing maximum hand size and letting you guys draw cards with this" *points to [[Folio of fancies]]*
I think this is a perfect response. I played a game yesterday with a draw discard commander (varina, lich queen for those wondering) and had [[archfiend of ifnir]] resolve. The token player swords’d my commander and generous gifted my other discard creature, then the next player swung at me for lethal. No feel bads, in fact that was probably the only way the entire table didn’t lose immediately. Imo if the player complains about you stopping them from winning then they should maybe look into different formats where it is more acceptable to win as fast as possible like cEDH or 1v1 formats
There's nothing wrong with him having good threat assessment, and that's not even his issue. The problem is that the correct response to his threat assessment is....the same every game. They are playing in a pod with the same decks repeatedly. And so everyone already knows the threats. The problem is that it's the same person every time. I'm not defending the blue player here or saying op should back off, just pointing out that the issue he's having is that the correct answer is the same every game. Really, op is in the right and it's on the blue player to figure out an answer to how he can have fun in the established environment - it is not op's job to purposely play weak lines, though a talk about general competitiveness should probably also be had by the group.
Are they complaining?
This is a good response, i play blue in almost every deck. I counterspell, i steal your permanents, or i combo out. When I'm playing any of these strategies i tell the table beforehand that they should kill me if they don't like them. You just have to learn to have fun taking game actions if you play these decks. I basically never win, much less than 25% of the time. I still have fun and if I'm not in the mood to be targeted first I do have a Jeskai prowess deck and a vehicles deck that draws no early game aggro. If your blue player is fine with how the games have been going, and feel free to ask them, keep doing what you're doing.
My dirty little secret is I'll point to my most threatening cards when someone casts a removal spell, offering them up as a target in a show of good faith. Every once in a very long while I point to the wrong piece, or the piece that I think they're scared of instead of the actual threat, because I'm a jerk. 9 time south of ten, I'm telling people to target me or my stuff, because my decks tend to get on a roll. Once they get going, you need like 3 removal spells to actually stop them.
I play yarok and had a rune-scarred demon and massacre wurm on the battlefield with a deadeye navigator in hand. When the table decided they needed to kill my wurm instead of my demon I went oh noooo, then killed them on my turn. Oops.
Killing a massacre worm that's already etb'd, wild.
They know I play some amount of blink. But they also know it’s primarily a combo deck. My friends aren’t the most competitive so I try to point out what I’m doing and what I’m trying to do with it as I go along, but I figured in this instance it was ok for them to learn by getting punched in the face.
Sometimes that's the best way to learn. I definitely get targeted more after a game like that, and it's definitely deserved and doesn't bother me in the slightest.
Yeah. Everyone in the group is cool with what’s happening so that’s really all that’s important.
I have a nasty [[Toxrill]] deck that I know when I play it I'm getting killed first. It's full of ways to get him out cheap and protect him, you need to know that all removal is coming at him and there's a boardwipe being held up by someone. If you play oppressive commanders be prepared to get battered, if you play oppressive decks be prepared to be battered.
[Toxrill](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/4/84e64f38-b1f3-47cd-8cfb-a4861369aca3.jpg?1643590379) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=toxrill%2C%20the%20corrosive) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/vow/132/toxrill-the-corrosive?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/84e64f38-b1f3-47cd-8cfb-a4861369aca3?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/toxrill-the-corrosive) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Toxrill and Tergrid are always must kill first. They are 2 of the most oppressive Commanders in the game and if either of them get out with some protection they are usually winning. If the players playing them don't know this, then they need to reassess their Commander choices. In my large play group no one plays them as Commanders anymore as they know what will happen when they do. But some of us do play them in the 99 which everyone is fine with.
Not outwardly but they get visibly upset when they're not allowed to do "the thing". Which I get but it's always applicable to say their decks "the thing" is winning
If it bothers them, it's on them to step up and talk about it. You can ask, but don't assume too much about their feelings. They won't be willing to change their decks or style until they feel like it anyways.
But . . . it sounds like "the thing" you are "not allowing" them to do . . . is to stop other players from doing anything.
It’s not wrong to win. Are they salty about it? What about your pod? This is a social issue, not a mechanical issue.
It's a strategic move, kinda like taking out an Eldrazi or Slivers deck quickly before it has time to build. If you were targeting this player first just because you didn't like them it would be different but I completely understand going after blue control players first. Mid to late game they're a real pain to deal with
Pretty much. I like to play attrition decks and eldrazi, both of which can get monstrous in the endgame so it makes sense to try to prevent that
Yeah when I play Slivers I fully expect people to gang up on me right away. They should.
I play a stax deck. It’s absolutely the right pick to target me before I can assemble locks on the board. It’s valid threat assessment
I think a lot depends on the end result of the games. If you’re consistently focusing them early, but also not winning you might want to reevaluate your strategy as well. I watched this happen in a pod where a person (correctly) identified that the control player would win if they weren’t kept in check. The problem is they spent so much effort trying to keep the control player from comboing off or getting too pillow fort-y that they basically gave the game to one of the other two players. Not exactly king-making, more like crab-bucketing. As a control player that can feel frustrating since the threat assessment is technically correct and incorrect at the same time. You may be right to keep the control player in check, but make sure you’re playing in a way that gives you the best chance at winning not the best chance at keeping them from winning. The two can coincide, but are definitely different.
This is for sure the key
You articulated my thoughts perfectly and youre also imo correct.
It has nothing to do with blue If they play stronger decks than everybody else, talk to them.
Its Not about Power Level. Its a play style.. I like to play Combo decks too .. Prefered in orzhov or Black but blue is fine too... If you dont kill me early and i got my Board to Combo i win so his thread Assessment is good thats it...
Agreed. Like, if someone plays slivers, you spot remove everything they play, or you lose. Even if you’re at their power level, if you don’t kick them while they’re down, you deserve to lose To a lesser extent it’s the same when I play jetmir. My goal is to get 8 creatures on the board, then drop jetmir and knock someone out of the game. And I will actively warn people of this. If they then let me count to 8 or above, that’s on them
My buddy runs an Winota deck and it's the same. I save every single removal spell for her even if it costs me momentum against the other players. I can perhaps stabilize against them, but not against her
I'm a Winota player and I support this message
Yeah that’s power not colours
Sorry but no. You got to Respekt the play style.. Dont care about colors. If any Deck is at the same lvl. One Deck wants to beat you to death the other wants to Combo of with infinite aristocrat for example you got to shut the aristocrat Player down before He can establish his boardstate... Otherwise you Lose..
Oh also you got to shut down the deck that wants to beat you to death, focusing on one playstyle to shut down and letting the other go nuts is frankly poor threat assessment and would certainly make me not want a game 2 with you
I dont know if its even power level, it seems like a genuine counter in the ethos of the decks. One probably plays midrange while the other builds to the killing endgame
I mean this is the right way to play. If I see you playing cards like Lotho I will also punch you into the sun because I don’t want you to be able accumulate resources using life. I play a lot of blue control decks and I don’t mind if you are targeting me down early game, that’s what you are supposed to do.
If he can hold up counterspells all game to only use defensively then the rest of the table needs to get their shit together. You should be playing offensive bombs that make him burn cards. Blue will always win if you just leave them to do whatever they want all game, but that also doesn’t mean you need to throw literally everything at them. If they’re sitting there holding cards and doing nothing, throw stuff at them. But if you’ve burned all their interaction and they’re down cards and tempo, maybe consider checking on the beat down player for a minute. It doesn’t have to be binary, your threat assessment should change throughout the game.
Their job to defend themselves.
Have you talked with them about it?
No fret. Had a game vs Child of Alara board wipe lockdown tribal. Even if they didn't win the first game, 2nd game you bet I focused the fk out of them since my deck can't function without a board.
Since this is someone you play against regularly and have seen their decks multiple times and know what they do, it’s a valid response. I try not to judge someone I haven’t played before just because they sit down with something Blue or I think is likely to be Stax. But if you know that’s what it is is and how to beat it then why wouldn’t you?
"You're deck locks my deck out of the game at a certain point, so respectfully, I'm not going to let you get there" is all I say before moving on
Always kill blue player first.
As others have said, your threat assessment is good. If they regularly play that stuff, knocking em out quick is the only option. My pod has a guy who always becomes archenemy early in most of his decks. He also tends to go out first because of it since we have to focus him down. Nature of the beast... we joke about it because when we don't draw answers, he'll one-shot someone/all of us or simply hit his combo in sub-10 turns. His playstyle is simply go big or go home. Our group vibe is one of "great game! let's go for another!" We enjoy it most when our decks "do the thing" and not necessarily tryhard winning every game, though.
Sounds like power inbalance
They’ll imprison you in the moon given the chance so I feel like you’re justified
Being targeted is the tradeoff for playing the best color in magic. Don't feel bad. I just play blue because I like drawing cards. I don't care that I lose as long as I get to draw cards.
A common high tier strategy is to keep as low a threat level as possible revealed to the table and then softly apply pressure until you have an advantage. Catch 22 is if u attack them u display power. And they only need to defend themselves to 'match ur power' so they NEVER seem to be the threat at the table... Unless ofc u can count to 2 islands and 7 cards in hand but most people cannot so that's something in your corner. Indeed the solution is relentlessly swinging 2/2 at them every game until they concede that they need early game blockers... Which slows down their efficiency and sucks them into the combat quagmire. Never stop attacking the person with the most islands ever.
Listen. I have a few decks like this and it sucks when I don't get to get away with it but that's the breaks. Blue players often get away with way too much nonsense. Kill us all.
Yeah, target them down. And if they ask why, tell them exactly what you put here. If they get salty and refuse to acknowledge that this is the correct play *target them harder*. If they understand, then I would let target them naturally based on threat assessment. I'm so tired of chumps playing strong decks and then complaining when you target them. That's part of the game, if you don't want to be targeted, get a different hobby.
Or just a different deck. If the mono-blue counter spell player shows up with a big stompy Gruul deck, he's no longer the automatic threat. At least not for the same reasons.
>Lastly, to get ahead of the "you don't need to try to win every game" responses I might get here Anyone who unironically thinks this needs redefine what it means to play a game. Sure, you don't need to pubstomp everyone at the table every game, and you shouldn't either. And yes, you should not expect (let alone demand) to win every game you play (or even most). But the purpose of a game is to win. If you're playing casually, the equal and other purpose is to have fun with the table, but still to win. And as a blue player, I say it is not at all wrong to delete the blue player when you can. That's called threat assessment, and the threat isn't always just the one who LOOKS like a threat. If you let the blue player sit there, build up, and draw a lot of cards, then you're increasing the likelihood that they will have an answer to everything.
As that blue player that mostly plays combos, you're perfectly justified.
You're doing God's work. Pressuring non-board focused decks will force them to built their deck considering some board presence, finally making them play the same game as everyone else) But jokes aside, don't just blame blue colour. I have couple blue decks with no counterspells, and no blue deck of mine uses more than 6 counterspells, as they are heavily focused on board presence. I also have a grull deck with 11 counterspells with the goal of making control deck's life a living hell.
Care to share that gruul deck? ;)
[https://www.moxfield.com/decks/\_f6tzwuuOEG2so\_UwtRUHA](https://www.moxfield.com/decks/_f6tzwuuOEG2so_UwtRUHA) I overestimated amount of counterspells, as there's only 6. But I do run a lot of 'nuh-uh' gruul cards.
You already answered your own question. Just kill them. You're playing a game where there's a strict objective, so play like you mean it. If they don't like it, they can change their deck. You don't have any control over what they do. You only have control over what you do. Perhaps more importantly, let everyone else at the table know what's up every game.
Carry on
AS THE KINGDOM COME
Always kill the Stax player first unless you’re scared of the Combo player. Once a Stax player is set up, there’s no going back.
I played Kaalia once and everyone killed me first. I never played Kaalia again. It makes perfect sense to kill the strongest deck first. That's literally the point of the game.
After a Piper deck spent 15 minutes trying to stack 21 damage on their commander to hit me, but only managed to get to 20 after all those random ass dice circled the board I felt that you can target blue players whenever.
As that type of player but who would still win often, I just found a different playgroup after a while because it was less of a pain in the ass. It's not fun being a target simply based off the past. I even decided to power down my decks but this one dude would just insta-target me right away no matter what, even though he was the one that asked me to. I called him out and asked why, trying to explain how shitty my new deck was and even offering to show it to him, but he was almost obsessive about it and wouldn't have it.
Aren't there cards out there that are just not affected by blue , or enchantments that give all your cards resistance to blue ? That would be a fun deck lol 😆
I play blue in every deck period If someone wasn't prioritizing me I'd be offended. You're not playing the best color to fold the second shit gets even the slightest bit tricky. If you like and respect your friend you'll treat him like the threat he is
threat assessment is the name of the game, if you think the blue player is the most likely to fuck you over later then you take them out early
Are you winning the games you focus them down? If you consistently don‘t, maybe your threat assessment isn‘t actually correct. If you do, you‘re playing the game properly so there‘s really no reason to complain. If I was a beatdown player and one of my opponents spent their entire game focusing the control player down I would be very happy. If you can focus down a control player while not being threatened by the beatdown player there‘s either a massive difference in power levels or the beatdown player is considerably worse at the game. Point being, nobody can tell you if your decision is correct without actual context. You can do whatever you want in the game so technically nothing is „wrong“ as long as it‘s allowed. Making mistakes and wrong threat assessment are part of that.
Oh new players. Always complaining about blue decks. It’s a tale as old as time….walk.
Always kill the stax/control player first, because they will win the long game and it will be a miserable 3 hours (if you're that lucky) you're not wrong in that, player removal is best removal
Incorrect. Always kill the group hug or chaos player first. Then combo. Then stax and control.
I feel attacked being a big combo player lol, but idk if i agree with that order tbh, i would kill stax/control over group hug or chaos any day
I'm a combo player too (Breya is a combo deck, Amareth runs combos), we need to be taken out early. Group hug and chaos take player agency out of the game and/or help accelerate opponents (especially bad if an opponent is on combo). Targeting them first also, hopefully, dissuades them from playing those decks again.
You attack the hug and chaos players first because they have the least ability to defend themselves, so you can finish them without being at relative disadvantage to the rest of the table. Same goes for combo.
If you understand how some decks or colors work, it's not wrong to go with the methodology road. It's a thoughtful process. The challenge is to explain your thinking to said player, and he/she be logical and gracious enough to accept this reasoning. Good players who understand threat assessment will offer their hand or praise/respect this line of play. It's either you take them down or they take over the game.
This is your playgroup, these are your friends. Explain to them why you assess threats this way. You already know their decks. But give your friend a chance to change. Let him brew something new, less oppressive, and give it the benefit of doubt once or twice. Then if the new deck proves to go just as oppressive as his others, put him into target zone once again.
Not at all. If they object they’re free to defend themselves.
If you’re killing them then they should have more on deck to effectively stop you from doing so. Skill issue, simple as. If they don’t want to die immediately they shouldn’t pose a threat.
Blue players should be honored to know that they’re first on the hit list lol I either consider you, your deck, or both to be at a high level. The only time this doesn’t hold true for me is when the person playing blue is someone I know and I know they’re not good at playing blue lol. Any competent blue player is a threat, especially mid to late. Gotta’ take ‘em out.
Im a lot like you OP where i have friends and when they play certain decks, i know i need to stop them early. The good thing is that they are friends and they are aware that once they get out of hand, they snowball and stop the game with stax/control. I have made it abundantly clear that if you run stax/control, i will target you or use removal on your pieces. I like to play multiple games, not just sit for 3 hours stuck in a control match. They completely understand. Sometimes we have games where they get knocked out very early and sometimes we have long control games where we all stare at our phones until its our turn. We all understand how the games may go. Can't win them all. Won't enjoy them all. Just talk to them and respect each other. understand its all just a game. no hurt feelings.
If you are ramping the power level above the table level, sure I think is a bit shitty, but thats me. Your playgroup should self police imho
This is not an issue of him playing blue. This is an issue of him playing a deck that needs to get focused down to be defeated. Blue decks can be aggressive and dynamic to play against. It seems to me that you are just judging threats well and ending the stax player before they can assemble their win con. Perfectly reasonable and expected. Maybe if this annoys you so much, you might want to talk to them about changing up the type of deck that they play.
I used to struggle with feeling bad for "targeting" the threat at the table lol. As time went on and frustration built up that went away. At the end of the day if you are running certain things you should be expecting to be doubt with accordingly. We are all playing a game that we would rather win lol.
I know the struggle. We've got a primarily blue control player always playing what seems like triple the removal of everyone else. If your wincon is win the game by doing X and there's one player that reliably messes with that then your actual wincon is: 1. Protect your win from blue player 2. Go for the win Some games this means you can get by with a [[Prowling Serpopard]] before your creature combo. Maybe you can surprise them with one more counterspell than they thought you could muster. It might just be that smacking them for 40 damage before they can stop you is the way to go. If they don't like it, they'll change up their deck and then they'll have other weaknesses to exploit (or not and your meta has balance issues).
[Prowling Serpopard](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/2/92921fc1-11d0-41a9-b9b2-b44fd0913d31.jpg?1543675928) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Prowling%20Serpopard) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/akh/180/prowling-serpopard?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/92921fc1-11d0-41a9-b9b2-b44fd0913d31?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/prowling-serpopard) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
If your threat assessment is correct it's not wrong. However I will say be careful with game memory, I've had games where I play something janky and get countered into oblivion because people remember the last game where I was a huge threat with another deck. Just assess every deck and game individually and don't prejudge a deck based on the player.
Good play! Zero fret. Take the head off the snake!
Killing the blue player first is the only way is Green/Red/X players can have any wins. If we let them untap enough times they just win. Don’t let them untap that many times
Threat assessment varies. You can start off going after the blue player as all things should be considered equal but if you are irrationally gunning for them even though another player at the table clearly has threats ... then you are inappropriately targeting the blue player.
If you are intentionally only focused on them until they’re out every single game, then yeah that’s a problem.
Threat assessment, killing someone just cause blue is poor assessment, killing someone cause they’re threat is good assessment. The thing is you want to make the blue use counters on other people or better yet play blue yourself to stop them 🤷♂️ You likely feel as you do sue to a power imbalance in the pod at which either A. You power up to match B. They power down to match or C don’t play with them or D play and keep having feels bad
Its really a difference of perspective. I think this is kinda funny because I appreciate the blue control deck that removes a threat that I'm not able to deal with. The same goes for stax, if they hinder my other opponents more then it hurts me I'll welcome the stax deck in the pod with open arms 🤷♂️🤷♂️
Send your damage to where it’s going to be highest impact. Sometimes that means taking out the player with the strongest deck, sometimes that means targeting the player harming your strategy the most.
When I play age of empires with my friends.. if I'm the byzantines, I must survive the early attempts to kill me. Because everyone knows that I'm very dangerous late game. This is a normal and acceptable game style and application of game theory. If they get frustrated with this, they will change their deck to be more balanced to defend early... Thereby removing your early threat but also weakening their late game. You and other players may respond in kind. This is good dynamics, imo. And good deck building.
Did you ask if you’re wrong for playing to win in a competitive TCG? No. The only people that would tell you otherwise are sore losers that should build better decks.
Just kill what you feel is the biggest threat to you winning the game I have a lot of Green decks with big creatures/tokens and I pretty much always try to focus down blue players first so that I have a good runway to build my board out like crazy with fewer unanswerable threats to my pieces. I don't know what specific cards everyone has so I just assume that they are either going to stax, counter or mess with me at instant speed in ways I don't have answers for vs other pieces of the color pie. It's not that I'm always try to target Blue, it just depends on what deck I'm playing a threat assessment of the table situationally.
What are you and the other players in your pod playing such that the *only* viable answer for The Blue Player is to pre-emptive murder them with player removal every single game? Play blue yourself and get into a counter war over their important spell. Play some stax that makes it harder for them to protect their combo-kill. Work together to remove their combo threat through their defenses. Play threats of your own that force the Blue Player into using some of their disruption so it can't be hoarded for the combo attempt. Talk to them about perhaps reducing their reliance on combo-kills and instead opting for a strategy thats more linear or exponential but fundamentally finite. There has got to be a better solution than making Blue Player into the Archenemy for reasons other than power level every game.
No. No you aren’t.
You should assess your threats dynamically. If you only focus them then you’re just leaving the door open for everyone else. I used to play a mono blue deck and one guy would make it his mission to kill me first every game, so I countered everything he did because I knew the other players were going to be more chill. He got madder and madder but why should I let him play if he’s only going to kill me? If you make the game unfun for someone then you can’t complain if they do it back.
If his strategies of building slow controlly games gets taken out by a fast aggro deck then that's how the balance works. You put your eggs in one basket, I'm not going to get upset when someone kicks it over.
As a sometimes blue player, not a control deck but a fun extra turns deck. Yes we should be dealt with quickly and severely because if not it gets out of hand.
[[Jester's cap]] easy way to troll a combo player.
[Jester's cap](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/3/b364e7e7-83e5-474b-9768-8b70a77e5ffa.jpg?1675201025) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Jester%27s%20cap) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dmr/227/jesters-cap?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/b364e7e7-83e5-474b-9768-8b70a77e5ffa?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/jesters-cap) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
There was a guy in my pod who literally only ever played a Wyleth deck. I had a specific sideboard for some of my main decks of just mass artifact hate. His deck was good, but the thing I hated was playing against it every time. Eventually other people did some similar stuff and he made more than one deck.
Said this before and I'll say it again.. If you target me or my stuff it's because it's a theat. If it's a threat that means I'm playing well. It's a compliment.
As others have said, it's not about them playing Blue. It probably feels like it because they protect their board state with counterspells, but that's just one of many ways to protect your board state. That said, you're not wrong either. You have identified that given enough time the player you're talking about will obtain a board state that you cannot brute force your way through, and they will have enough protection for that board state to maintain it and win the game. There are a number of ways to combat this, and attacking them early and often is one of those ways. Just be aware that this also leaves you open to attacks yourself from the rest of the table. Don't be surprised if the other player starts politicking with the rest of the table to kill you first instead, as you will look like the aggressor. State your piece as well as you have here, and you might get an ally. But it might not work every time either. Also, there are different axis to fight on aside from just attacking them first. If they use counterspells as the main way to protect themselves and interact with the board, it might be time to play a tiny bit of stax yourself. \[\[Teferi, Time Raveler\]\] and \[\[Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir\]\] both stop your opponent from playing at instant speed and effectively turn off counter magic. You might also try something like \[\[Deafening Silence\]\], which would only allow them to counter one spell turn, or even \[\[Rule of Law\]\] which only allows everyone to cast a single spell per turn. If you're not in white/blue, you can always try \[\[Veil of Summer\]\]. It replaces itself when cast (assuming you cast it in response to your opponent casting a counter spell), and prevents your stuff from being countered for a single G mana. If you're in red and want a nuclear option, there's always \[\[Obliterate\]\]. Other than that, we'd need to know specifically what decks you play to give you more specific suggestions.
##### ###### #### [Teferi, Time Raveler](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/6/662fe50f-d75c-422c-8c6c-1f9b5c4ba21f.jpg?1702429729) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Teferi%2C%20Time%20Raveler) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/rvr/232/teferi-time-raveler?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/662fe50f-d75c-422c-8c6c-1f9b5c4ba21f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/teferi-time-raveler) [Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/f/8fc5e4a8-ea7b-4803-a7ed-3b915708661f.jpg?1619394801) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Teferi%2C%20Mage%20of%20Zhalfir) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/tsr/91/teferi-mage-of-zhalfir?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/8fc5e4a8-ea7b-4803-a7ed-3b915708661f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/teferi-mage-of-zhalfir) [Deafening Silence](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/0/6072d9b0-d3c7-46f4-bd24-095bb13c4dea.jpg?1572489660) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Deafening%20Silence) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/eld/10/deafening-silence?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/6072d9b0-d3c7-46f4-bd24-095bb13c4dea?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/deafening-silence) [Rule of Law](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/1/a1f4e79b-b103-4380-afa0-61a2b1773c9e.jpg?1592516198) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Rule%20of%20Law) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m20/35/rule-of-law?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/a1f4e79b-b103-4380-afa0-61a2b1773c9e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/rule-of-law) [Veil of Summer](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/a/aa686c34-1c11-469f-93c2-f9891aea521f.jpg?1650599837) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Veil%20of%20Summer) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m20/198/veil-of-summer?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/aa686c34-1c11-469f-93c2-f9891aea521f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/veil-of-summer) [Obliterate](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/8/c85f9623-5900-473c-a3b1-f98473b9a545.jpg?1562935194) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Obliterate) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/8ed/204/obliterate?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/c85f9623-5900-473c-a3b1-f98473b9a545?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/obliterate) [*All cards*](https://mtgcardfetcher.nl/redirect/l6ymyki) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Might be better strategically to let it get to the late game when they're obviously the archenemy, and then work together with the other two players to take them out. That way, it doesn't cost you all your resources and leave you at their mercy once the blue player is gone. Taking out the big threat is good, but don't do free labor for your other opponents.
As a blue player, you are correct. We will show no mercy, and expect none as such lol
_Am I wrong to kill the ~~blue~~ player into the sun?_ The point of the game is to eliminate the other players. Threat asses and try to win. Do those things and you're fine.
Said player knows that they’re doing with their deck choices in your local meta, they know that they’re putting a target on their head unless they build/play something new and different. If they’re deck choices are making your experiences not fun, then either kill them first or ask them to play something different - you could even offer to lend them a deck to play so they offer something different to the pods experience.
As the resident blue \[control\] player: the blue deck must be able to protect itself to bring it to the late game. Besides talking to them you might want to tell them the principles of your threat assessment (basically what you wrote here) and that a random redditor suggested they bring more early protection. Your actions are logical, though. If you need to prevent late game from happening this is what you do. It's inevitable and unfortunately it's on your buddy to do something about their decks or play style in this case. Something you both can do is some politics; you promise safety and they promise to not touch your stuff. If their deck is symmetrical there's nothing you can do about this, though. There's simply no room for politics which, again, isn't on you but on the player playing symmetrical effects. Lastly you could also see what you can learn from swapping decks. It's usually an eye opener for everyone involved.
As someone who likes to play maliciously controlling blue decks, I don't take it personally when I get focused.
I try to follow two rules in situations like this: "Don't hate the player, hate the deck", and "Don't let one game's loss roll over into the next game's decisions." Assessing a deck's potential and strategy is an important part of the game. In 1v1 Modern, I would expect no tears if I were to play Burn and someone pouts after Birds of Paradise gets Bolted. Similarly if someone is playing a Baral Counterspell deck in EDH, they deserve a Gruul-fueled punch to the face before they play a permission-control game. Additionally, sometimes people do genuinely have better deckbuilding decisions. If cost is truly the main factor here, then they are buying consistency, not wins. Plenty of $2000 decks can lose to a $50 well-crafted combo deck. I have spoken with some players who consistently beat me and they give me tips on why some cards belong and some don't depending on the Commander (and also don't feel bad, it is often an honor to be taken out first under the expectation of being the biggest threat). Take, for example, [[Svella, Ice Shaper]]. She's a 3-drop Commander who plans to flood the board with ramp, then (for my deck) she helps spurn out obscenely giant creatures. So for a commander with 3 CMC and a 3-costed ability, why was I ever running Cultivate and Kodama's Reach? I should NEVER cast them when I have a 3 CMC commander. Just an example. There are thousands of cards out there. Sometimes a cheaper, less popular swap is more ideal for your game plan and win condition. And I agree with your last comment: if you are playing a game, *you should be trying to win*. A Grouphug deck where everyone draws cards but you don't attack just rewards people with better deck consistency. A Stax deck that can get OG Vorinclex on turn 4-5 is pure suffering. Politics is a valid strategy, but the politics that goes on beyond a single game is often undervalued.
[Svella, Ice Shaper](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/7/a7054d48-5ed3-43a1-85e5-9f306b081b4f.jpg?1631051907) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Svella%2C%20Ice%20Shaper) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/khm/230/svella-ice-shaper?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/a7054d48-5ed3-43a1-85e5-9f306b081b4f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/svella-ice-shaper) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I am a dimir player, which makes me a horrible human being so I shouldn’t comment
As a blue player this is 100% valid, they need to be doing more to prevent people from getting to a point where it's an option to kill them in the first place. Just generally having a greater ability to control the early game will almost always be more valuable to a control strategy than being overbearing in the late game because if you've has complete control over the first 5 or 7 turns, the chances of anyone being able to dig themselves out through later game control pieces (think Toxrill, Gravepact, Consecrated Sphinx). TLDR; they suck at playing control in EDH and want to guilt trip people into letting them win so they don't actually have to improve as a player and deck builder
You're definitely in the clear here. If they don't want to pull as much aggression from the table, they need to change their gameplan. If they want to survive early game better, they can add more defensive oriented cards to disuade attacks, rather than punishing the entire table.
There are players who like to bring strong decks to the table and I think they’re usually pretty understanding about getting targeted (or killed into the sun, as you put it). If you can dish it out you’ve gotta be able to take it too.
Just sounds like proper threat assessment to me. If you see them getting pieces in place and know how that player plays then yeah you're doing the right thing. For example, I run a [[kami of the crescent moon]] deck that takes time to get going. It makes everybody draw cards (to speed the games up because I hate slow games) but it doesn't pop off for a little while because I need a couple pieces in place to go crazy. If you targeted me turn 1 because I'm mono-blue that's not proper threat assessment. But if you saw me getting pieces in place or trying to and shifted to taking me down sure, I get it. I say this because we have a player in my pod that does that and it drives me crazy. If I play Kami he targets me turn 1 because, "if you're letting everyone draw cards you're up to something". In the end it sounds like you're in the right.
[kami of the crescent moon](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/d/dd420010-6eaf-4853-8b7b-11de1157416b.jpg?1641601922) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=kami%20of%20the%20crescent%20moon) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/voc/107/kami-of-the-crescent-moon?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/dd420010-6eaf-4853-8b7b-11de1157416b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/kami-of-the-crescent-moon) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
It's a simple formula Step 1: kill "That Guy" Step 2: play magic and have fun
It sounds like you stated the answer already and are ignoring it to get feedback from Reddit. "You don't need to win every game." If what matters most is winning, keep doing what you're doing. If you care about your friendships, make sure they are not having a bad time every game, and consider switching it up if they are. If they are okay with being targeted, then keep it up. Some people like being the archenemy.
Surely there is some middle ground between not needing to win and intentionally throwing games. I don't care about winning but I prefer being beaten by someone who played better instead of losing because I "let" them win
It's all fun and games until their forced to select more targeted pieces for your focus. Sure it might decrease their chances against others but it will for make you unhappy as they are being focused. Threat assessment should be by board states and paying attention to what people are doing (as well as certain commanders), not by potential end game. Of course if it's deciding where to send your spare creatures and have leeway sure, but to full on focus from the get go can lead to some serious issues down the line. I have a wide variety of deck types and decks so I doubt this will ever be an issue for me but if I had someone were to do this to me I'd make sure that neither of us will be having fun if that's the mindset they come at me with.
I often play decks like this and I don’t take it personally. It’s often times the right move and in general if someone else is trying to win and they think they need to take me out then that’s their decision to make - fine with me!
In 60 card formats there is a question a lot of decks will ask themselves 'am I the beatdown' and what it means is "do I win in the long game" you have worked out that you do not win the long game and thus you are the beatdown in this situation. So you can either channel your early aggression at the long game decks and win or give them the time they need to bear you and lose. Make your choice, a competent long game deck devotes a certain amount of space to not dying so there is that too.
It's a competitive game. Everything is okay.
Agree with most of the others. I usually just explain it like a compliment to their deck. If I don't take you out early then I will die to your deck late game. You don't have to make them feel bad but they need to find the right decks to get past your early harassment. It's part of the meta. Red goes fast, if they don't win early then they lose to other colours late game (obviously this has been fixed more and more through the years but that's the general idea). Blue wants to survive through the early game so they can get to a late game combo or some other wincon. I have a friend who plays late game combos and a lot of sessions he just dies to ppl attacking because he leaves his board open with few or no blockers. Deck balance means planning for all stages of the game.
I'm the blue guy in our pod. All else being equal, the right play is to attack me early and often.
Playing blue here and there and I agree; hit them before they become a problem. The Zaffia deck I copy so much I feel like I'm cascading. I make decks that are so over my friends skill level and deck power they single me out along another player for being too strategic. It's fun for us too
When I play Blue, it's usually with bounce effects and mill, not counters. But I'm still the one who gets targeted the most. So I lean into it, play the scene-chewing baddie, and we all have a good time.
Yes. Every true blue and or combo player would agree you need to kills us. If they can't take the heat either they play something more chill or learn to play more removal and blockers instead of endless counters. You dont need 20+. 5 - 10 suffices most decks. You dont fire a counter unless someone is about to win, or plays something that gives them an insourmable advantage. Or they're stopping your combo. Everything else is the tables problem to deal with.
It's definitely not wrong what your doing. I have a nasty Mono Black Aristocrat deck. This is one of my pet decks that has $1000+ with 75+ played games into the deck, and my group knows that there is a time limit on the game and if they don't focus me first, even when I don't look threatening (This is how the deck wins the most, is it look super innocent, and then I win) they MUST focus me over anyone else, I will most certainly get to my 4th-6th turn and say "I win". But when I play this deck I am okay with them targeting me, and will even tell people that I am always the threat, It is one deck with our play group that has the highest games/win rates out of our collective 100+ decks. So if a player has built a strong or oppressive deck and they + their play group knows it, they honestly shouldn't be upset for being targeted first and if they do get upset by this they should rethink the kind of decks they are making/playing. They should take it as a honor that they built a badass deck, at least that's how I do.
You know their deck well enough to know how to beat it, and that's what you did, so I don't anything wrong with it. My friend has a [[Zaxara]] deck that typically wins on turn 6 or less (it's not cEDH) with help of tutors. It's a deck that he whips out if he just wants to win. Now whenever he plays that deck, I'd take out my strongest deck to try to counter it (usually one with blue).
[Zaxara](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/d/6dc390da-75f8-490a-a724-c12d21cfe578.jpg?1701636845) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=zaxara%2C%20the%20exemplary) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dmc/176/zaxara-the-exemplary?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/6dc390da-75f8-490a-a724-c12d21cfe578?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/zaxara-the-exemplary) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
The blue player can get salty, but they knew what they were doing picking a blue deck.
How is Sheoldred Stax? Genuinely curious
Maybe group slug is a better term for it? Nearly every permanent causes people to discard for every action taken, deals damage per discard, or forces edicts repeatedly
Ok, thx. Then *control* is a better term for that kind of decks. Monoblack stax would be nuts though if there were cards that support it
Well, this kind of pressure is needed to balance out the game. Staying out of focus is a good strategy, sometimes you want someone else to be a problem to the table, so you are left alone. Having to stay alive facing aggro changes the deck and gameplan a lot, so at some point their decks may adapt to not die instead of turbo stax/prison/control and give you some time to focus anywhere else.
We have this problem on board my ship with a player and his [[Miirym]] deck. Any time I have a chance to take him out of the game, I take it, because far too many times I've been nice when he's been behind and allowed him to play the game one more turn. At which point he flips [[Genesis Ultimatum]] into [[Scourge of Valkas]] and [[Dragon Tempest]] with his commander out, and immediately kills me will all the triggers. He is annoyed that we complain about him playing his dragon deck because if we don't target him, he wins the game very easily very quickly if he untaps with his commander on the board. Same thing goes for someone who plays [[Kaalia of the Vast]]. I don't count any game I get [[Master of Cruelties]] KO'd by as a loss, because I write it off as a scam and just start reshuffling and switch to my [[Breya, Etherium Sculptor]] deck. Other players dislike me playing it because it's a very tuned, consistent deck, but my argument is if I'm up against other T1 commanders I'm going to play a stong deck, especially one that plays cheap kills like Kaalia + MoC. I'm the same way. I don't mind losing, but when I lose because of a scam or because I play nice and get punished for it, I just revert to "don't be a nice guy, kill the threat."
##### ###### #### [Miirym](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/9/a934590b-5c70-4f07-af67-fbe817a99531.jpg?1674137589) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=miirym%2C%20sentinel%20wyrm) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/clb/284/miirym-sentinel-wyrm?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/a934590b-5c70-4f07-af67-fbe817a99531?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/miirym-sentinel-wyrm) [Genesis Ultimatum](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/5/556dfe7a-43e8-4801-ad79-89ab2148eca6.jpg?1591228052) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Genesis%20Ultimatum) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/iko/189/genesis-ultimatum?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/556dfe7a-43e8-4801-ad79-89ab2148eca6?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/genesis-ultimatum) [Scourge of Valkas](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/6/e6bd7225-b39f-4b3b-8c36-dbc2c09f6e50.jpg?1631587429) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Scourge%20of%20Valkas) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/afc/137/scourge-of-valkas?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/e6bd7225-b39f-4b3b-8c36-dbc2c09f6e50?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/scourge-of-valkas) [Dragon Tempest](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/1/f1933d08-07fe-45ea-9b60-d9afb98d5753.jpg?1562855620) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Dragon%20Tempest) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ima/125/dragon-tempest?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f1933d08-07fe-45ea-9b60-d9afb98d5753?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/dragon-tempest) [Kaalia of the Vast](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/7/e71c8c39-3fbb-4a42-9cf6-b3224f5a56fc.jpg?1717013745) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Kaalia%20of%20the%20Vast) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mh3/290/kaalia-of-the-vast?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/e71c8c39-3fbb-4a42-9cf6-b3224f5a56fc?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/kaalia-of-the-vast) [Master of Cruelties](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/f/ffd68fe1-5cfc-44cf-8dfe-3488278cdcef.jpg?1702429664) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Master%20of%20Cruelties) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/rvr/198/master-of-cruelties?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/ffd68fe1-5cfc-44cf-8dfe-3488278cdcef?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/master-of-cruelties) [Breya, Etherium Sculptor](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/d/ed796f1a-683d-4ac5-af48-ca58a557a74f.jpg?1651655702) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Etherium%20Sculptor) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/nec/92/etherium-sculptor?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/ed796f1a-683d-4ac5-af48-ca58a557a74f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/etherium-sculptor) [*All cards*](https://mtgcardfetcher.nl/redirect/l70uusk) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
There's nothing wrong with having one color you mainly pivot around, all of my decks include green because it's easier to collect cards that way, but there's a lot of ways to punish blue, try turning up the tempo
My 11 yo step son has a hydra deck and if I let him get out of control he just one shots everyone. So I didn’t feel bad for punching him with 12 infect on turn 4. He just sat there in disbelief. My wife ended up winning the game. But still funny that he was talking all this shit only to humbled on turn 4.
My 11 yo step son has a hydra deck and if I let him get out of control he just one shots everyone. So I didn’t feel bad for punching him with 12 infect on turn 4. He just sat there in disbelief. My wife ended up winning the game. But still funny that he was talking all this shit only to humbled on turn 4.
Just do it until he made a normal deck.
I certainly think you should try your best to win every game. But I would question that threat assessment: usually the decks that dominate the lategame are slow value decks. To keep a control deck from becoming unstoppable all you need to do is remove their draw engines.
This is literally proper play and the only people who say otherwise are combo players. End of discussion.
Never feel had for applying threat assessment
I think it's important to understand how strong your deck is comparatively. I've got multiple styles of decks that range in power, so some decks make me into an instant threat while others play more like group hug to give me some breathing room if I get tired of being targeted first. If your friend is playing stax and blue counterspells and is getting upset about being hit first it sounds like they need to change up their playstyle a bit tbh or just accept that they need to be eliminated first.
Don't feel bad just had a game where I had to explain that drawing 18 from notion thief while playing a Tivit deck pretty much forced us to kill him before it got back around or we were 100% screwed for the rest of the game. Honestly trying to explain how good card advantage is actually is mind blowing. Ps if your playing Tivit and want to pretend it's a "voting" deck and then proceeded to make us choose between two shitty options is not cool or interactive voting its just annoying
I kinda learned the hard way that when you play certain decks you'll have a target on your back as soon as the game begins. Don't feel bad targeting with hard to stop decks. Yeah it can suck being the target early but that's the game. I love blue and run it in most of my decks and am trying to prevent you from playing period. If I'm the target from go, I gotta git gud or try to come up with a strategy to counter that. Sometimes it feels like we're playing kick me while I'm down instead of magic. Is what it is. Learned new ways to play from it even. Play your game and don't worry about everyone else, they're probably doing the same
It's really not about them being "the blue player", that isn't actually meaningful here. What *is* meaningful is that you've identified a threat that you believe needs to be addressed and are doing so. If your belief is correct then this is sound strategy.
Your friend needs to adapt his decks to the meta! This means being ready for early aggression and believe it or not, this is actually pretty easy in mono-blue! **Blue “boardwipes” have an argument for being the BEST in the game.** Better than white or black even. Why? Blue boardwipes don’t care about your indestructible. Blue boardwipes are also often either one-sided or when symmetrical are so blue favorable that it might as well be one-sided. For example, [[wash out]] is just fucking BRUTAL in most games since everyone will play with at least 2 colors you will always bounce at least 2 players. [[consuming tide]] wrecks tokens, enchantments, mana rocks. It’s a complete reset that will also draw you cards usually since mono-blue usually has less board presence. [[curse of the swine]] is easily one of the best exile spells in the game. (Don’t even get me started on [[imprisoned in the moon]], one wicked wicked commander removal spell.) [[spectral deluge]] is just fucking horrible to everyone not named “you.” Totally one-sided madness. They have *maybe* one turn to put down their best pieces, but if you can leave even one mana open for something like [[an offer you can’t refuse]], then they’ll only play their second best card. This is a wicked wicked combo. [[displacement wave]] is great for sweeping those early cast commanders and quick aggro pieces. It’s useful beginning, middle, and end. And of course, who could forget [[cyclonic rift]] blue’s most infamous wipe and for good reason. You know it. You love it. I don’t need to say anything about it. And all of these don’t even take into account count the less one-sided wipes or the direct control such as [[devastation tide]], or [[cryptic command]] which if you wait until the end of the first main let’s you either (1) counter a spell and tap down all of the player’s creatures or (2) tap down all of the player’s creatures and draw a card. Value. Also, [[aetherize] is fun but lower than the others on the value train since it’s a player to player effect but it works here since you are his threat. There’s waaaay more. Mono blue has massive board control when you understand that blue doesn’t care about killing while on the board. Blue kills during the cast. If he incorporates some or all of these, then he’ll have a much more enjoyable time playing against you. There’s way more, but I run these in my mono-blue deck. Adding these into my deck has made my mono-blue one of the most competitive at my table. *As it turns out, it’s hard to kill the blue player with all your permanents in your hand.*
Here, lets trade decks for the night.
What kind of response is "you don't need to try to win every game?" Magic is a game with a defined objective - winning. If targeting the blue player is necessary, go for it.
Killing the player by the time you need to kill them or lose is totally valid. Not blue necessarily but a 5 color Garth 1 eye player who plays gate victory who had 3 gates in play and an otherwise empty board and then played the 9 mana sorcery to go search up 10 gates and won upon resolution. I didn't play blue so I had no chance to interact. The entire game was essentially meaningless up to that point when he did that. Now that deck dies before it gets to 9 mana if I'm not playing counter magic. Sorry, not sorry that I have to kill you before any point in the game you can just rip an I win button from hand matter the board state or anything else. I'm also not playing "I at all times need to have a counter spell for the insta win card that is otherwise not interactive" because the win condition is a land.
"Blue lives matter"?
You do need to try to win every game. Everyone should be playing to win. You just should not expect to win every game and you should handle defeat with grace. Anyone saying they aren't playing to win in my opinion needs to be removed from the game, because odds are their plan is to stax the game to the speed of molasses. I've told the friend that plays stax that I will be attacking them till they stop me. Because that is all their deck is meant to do is lock the game up. So their most vulnerable state is early on, and they typically have a low creature count, so you have to go then. Often times we don't swing at the people with little or no creatures as it makes a feel bad moment. But if they are playing a low creature count deck, then the only way to make that change is to show they need to be able to defend themselves.
This is exactly how I play all of my games. I look like a weak little baby until im unstoppable, then no one can do anything. I never tell my play group to murder me, but I take any amount of hard targeting with utter grace because its the smart move. I’ve even had to explain to other people unfamiliar with our play group that my friend hard targeting me when I had the lowest life and no creatures was the right thing to do. They thought I was getting bullied until I played {Darksteel Forge}, {Portal to Phyrexia} and {Triplicate Titan} all in one turn for free.
That’s just the game. If you allow the blue control/stax player to get into the late uncontested, you’re almost guaranteeing them the win. Don’t feel bad about stopping them, when you’re trying to reach the same goal. Let them adjust and play aggro for once instead. Could be a learning experience for him.
As a mostly blue player. I get it.
Threat assessment is threat assessment, that's all there is to it. If the stax player is winning by making the game unplayable, play the game before he can. Be the gruul player, be the burn player, or beat him at his own game, go orzov life tax. Very few blue combo decks stand to the might of life tax my guy. Whip out the souls sisters, elis IL khor, khmbal as commander with teysa in the 99, be a full degenerate. I have an orzov deck list you might be interested in, my pod calls it the government for a reason.
If they don’t want to get their head caved in they are free to play blockers instead of more value pieces and counterspells.
As a blue player, I’d be offended if you didn’t. 😂 Blue has some of the cheapest and overpowered response cards in Magic. So unless they’re throwing them around like dice, they should be able to take one person over-targeting them. Comes with the territory of being the control guy.
I am the oldest player in my play group and also to one who's been playing the longest. I am the target for most of our games, unless someone gets a really explosive start, but I don't mind people focusing me. Sure it's a bit annoying if I get a slow start, and have issues with mana or something (happens to us all), but most of the time it's the correct decision. If a player plays a lot of stax/control style decks, they should also be aware that they will have to carry a bullseye on their chest for most games. Either alter your deck to handle it or accept the fact that not every game will go accord to your plan. It's part of the game. As someone else said earlier, threat assessment is a major part of mtg and it's one of the hardest things to learn. Almost anyone can watch a screenshot of a boardstate and recognize the strongest board, but so much more goes into it than just who has the strongest board in a vacuum. As a final statement, keep focusing the stax player and don't feel bad.
As a blue player who lovea the setup game; don't be afraid to kill someone into the sun before they can set up. We (blue player who run control stuff) are choosing that deck, and part of that choice is accepting that when your victory condition is controlling the way the game is played, your deck becomes high on the threat list. Personally, I avoid salt by being honest as I can be about what my deck does, so the only time I get upset is like when I'm running a "just for fun" deck and for some unholy reason, people just assuming I have the most oppressive goodstuff packed in or w/e
You absolutely should not feel bad. It's called knowing your enemy, and establishing threat levels. If that particular player is always the threat then he should understand that, or become less threatening lol.
Blue has trouble winning multiplayer. A lot of their cards are 1 to 1 trades. What you really need to do is answer the card draw engines or spells they are using. It's the need to refuel that offers you a chance to stop them. If you don't have stack level interaction, use things like \[\[Paralectric Feedback\]\], \[\[Bowmasters\]\], things like that. And entire hand discard (\[\[Persecute\]\], \[\[Thought Distortion\]\]). If you're creative you can clip their wings without needing to just turn your creatures sideways at them each chance you get.
##### ###### #### [Paralectric Feedback](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/9/891f1d29-377a-4f71-917f-ff10e785caee.jpg?1593272344) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Parallectric%20Feedback) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/gpt/71/parallectric-feedback?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/891f1d29-377a-4f71-917f-ff10e785caee?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/parallectric-feedback) [Bowmasters](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/6/a6db26b5-d28c-4524-9347-eec412d584bc.jpg?1562791100) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Aerie%20Bowmasters) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dtk/170/aerie-bowmasters?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/a6db26b5-d28c-4524-9347-eec412d584bc?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/aerie-bowmasters) [Persecute](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/4/54af13f6-7a7b-431d-9dda-6492d135563f.jpg?1687906317) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Persecute) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/9ed/151/persecute?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/54af13f6-7a7b-431d-9dda-6492d135563f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/persecute) [Thought Distortion](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/4/f4a9d636-6720-4d7e-8b81-12c20bce6495.jpg?1592516789) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Thought%20Distortion) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m20/117/thought-distortion?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f4a9d636-6720-4d7e-8b81-12c20bce6495?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/thought-distortion) [*All cards*](https://mtgcardfetcher.nl/redirect/l7kufpb) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
\[\[orcish bowmasters\]\] as though it needs to be looked up lol
[orcish bowmasters](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/c/7c024bae-5631-4e20-ac69-df392ac9e109.jpg?1686968669) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=orcish%20bowmasters) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ltr/103/orcish-bowmasters?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/7c024bae-5631-4e20-ac69-df392ac9e109?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/orcish-bowmasters) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
No. Kill them quick. My friend runs a blue red spell slinger deck as his main now with the outlaw Stella as the commander and the deck is a menace.
Your goal, and everyone elses goal should be to win the game. If your best bet is to remove them, then do it.
This isn’t all blue. I’m a proud blue mage and no not every deck needs a fucking Stasis effect or 20 counterspells. We call that degenerate. I play blue cuz I love drawing cards and playing cantrips and Octavia is my girl. Just know not all blue players are twats.
I do this a lot too because I have to be aware of a potential counterspell coming out of nowhere to mess up something else. I benefit a lot more from removing that possibility ASAP.
>I don't want to make them feel bad for their deck choices, if they choose a KOS deck, then they deserve to be KOS >Lastly, to get ahead of the "you don't need to try to win every game" responses fuck anyone who says that shit, the point of the game is to try to win, do it in a healthy way, and you'll be ok. you don't play a game hoping for second place. and to counter anyone replying, I CLEARLY SAID "do it in a healthy way"
The best removal is player removal. You don't need to fight through all of their stax trying to land removal against their stax pieces whem you can just kill them instead. Anyone who plays stax or any other similarly difficult to handle game states should understand they will get targeted to be killed, since that is often the easiest way for the rest of the table to remove their stuff.
Fellas, is it wrong to try and win the game?
They’re blue. Shoot them fast and don’t feel bad about it.
The flow chart for MtG threat assessment: Is it blue? Yes: Kill it with fire. No: Find the blue player and kill it with fire.
F*&k that blue player. Destroy them so bad, they become.colour blind and can't see the colour blue.
i'm a simple man.... i see rhystic study, i kill player with rhystic study....
Absolutely kill that guy first
Work on your rule 0 conversation You need to outline how their deckbuilding choices force you to play so differently, that's it's constantly affecting your (and likely the rest of the pods) gameplay in a way that you don't find fun. Offer them a non-blue deck to borrow, or consider offering new commander ideas for them to build for next time. Either that or you can build decks that are efficient at dealing with their nonsense in response to them playing full control. Decks that can play through counterspells or stax exist. Many decks have spells that since "X Can't be countered" or have so much recursion a few counterspells won't matter. I'm also sure playing your own stax pieces like [[defense grid]] would completely ruin some counter heavy decks. Eventually, once they realize you pull a certain deck that halts their solitaire gameplan, they adapt and play someone different.
[defense grid](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/9/f939dac5-ad71-4163-adde-4f435412477c.jpg?1562744235) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=defense%20grid) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/9ed/293/defense-grid?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f939dac5-ad71-4163-adde-4f435412477c?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/defense-grid) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
No, you're doing it right.
This is just tradition. I don’t feel bad about it when I mercilessly go after the blue player, nor when I am the blue player getting dogpiled. You reap what you sow.
No, killing the blue player is never the wrong play. Better he die first than have to sit through infinite narset turns or some other bullshit.