Depending on how much they do with other armies I think this is a bit harsh. My feeling listening to the episodes is that they suggested more changes to the armies they knew well which kinda makes sense. Easier to come up with suggestions if you know the key units of the faction. It's also easy to view your faction(s) as really good when you're one of the best players in the world :D
As for internal balance there are def some units that could do with some help and some that are currently auto takes so a bit of tuning wouldn't hurt, but if they increase the points of hawks, spiders and specters with 5-10 points per unit and lower the points the same amount on banshees, scorpions and shining spears I think that will still be a net nerf that's really not needed right now.
The problem with melee units right now is not really that they are too expensive, but that the index doesn't really support them. I think they will stay on the shelf until we get more detachments, unless they make them stupid cheap.
I guess it all comes down to the philisophy and goals of the MFM.
I honestly don't see that much point in making many changes to armies that are clearly within their target range of 45-55%. I think Eldar has been right in the middle of that every week since the last data slate.
If they go hard on internal balance then there might be more changes, but in that case they'll have to do pretty broad changes to every index/codex and I'm not sure I see that happening right now.
I think they'll put more focus on balancing the top / bottom armies and do the big internal changes with new releases.
Maybe, or maybe they see Eldar only been balanced by the fact that they have hard matchups in Necrons and Custodes - and those are getting nerfed. So to prevent Eldar from becoming a problem again, they might nerf them preemptively.
Let's see. I don't know what will happen :-)
Yeah, they'll either have to do a lot of changes to a lot of armies or leave most of them alone.
If they go hard on necrons, TS, BT, sisters and such they def have to tweak eldar a bit as well.
My wish would be something to improve Howling Banshees so they can live up to their ‘scream into melee’ role. Points reduction is always good but I feel they need a mechanical/data slate tweak, which I think is unlikely until the codex.
Otherwise I actually think the points are pretty balanced at the moment. Surprised they’re still pushing for such a massive increase to NS, I thought the recent changes had taken them from ‘broken’ to just ‘really good’, on par with other factions’ ‘really good’ units. Don’t run support weapons so can’t really comment there.
Vik was pushing for points on every indirect piece in the game so that you'd never see them. Not entirely serious, but also wants them gone. So take those points suggestions with a grain of salt.
Kinda pointless to suggest such ludicrous increases. They might as well advocate for these units to just be banned from competitive play. But with all that emphasis on teleporting armies I don't feel that Indirect is that much of an issue anymore. It's simply something you need to account for and bring a counter. Some armies are better at that than others but that is true for pretty much every gimmick. And we've seen triple Reapers show up lately, so why no increase here? Just weird. Night Spinners haven't been a problem unit since the slate.
Increasing Fuegan, Hawks, Spiders, Dragons, Spectres & Wayleapers a bit sounds fair. I would put Fuegan at 130, Hawks at 85, Spiders at 125, Dragons at 90, Spectres at 100 and the Wayleaper at 125 which seems similar to their ~100 point estimate. I'd probably bump Rangers to 60, they are super cheap at 55 for the value you're getting.
On the flipside, Guardian Defenders could get a cut and would probably feel more at home at 100. Storm Guardians have recently seen some competitive play (though rarely more than one squad) and could still come down to 110. Most Phoenix Lords are very overpriced, Maugan-Ra & Irillyth seem particularly silly at their pricepoint with Jain-Zar not too far behind. Voidreavers would feel more at home at 60, Voidscarred at 75 or 80. The units are currently mostly jank. Shining Spears are also screaming for a decrease, 120 is just absurd. They belong more in the range of 95-105. Both Wraithlords and Wraithseers are too pricey, 145 feels a lot more adequate here (Ballistus is 140 for comparison). Asurmen and Avengers are just a bit too pricey as a package, 130 for Asurmen and 65 for Avengers sounds more palatable. Warlocks of any flavour are absolute garbage, but shaving off 5 points won't change that. I'd still show some love, putting the individual ones at 40/50 and the Conclaves at 50/90. Shave 5 points off of Scorpions and 10 points off of Banshees to help the melee aspects out. Yriel at 100 is rough, 85-90 is where I'd put him. Eldrad at 100 would make him more interesting. Warp Hunter is garbage and should not be more than 120. Webway Gate might as well not exist.
That would put most of the competitive lists we are seeing ~100 points up, so people would probably be forced to drop one unit of Hawks/Spectres/Spiders to make it work or, ideally, switch it up a bit.
Yep, Vik just hates indirect and wants all of it excluded from competitive play, they didn't mention Reapers only because they were going quite fast.
Otherwise, you all agree on competitive lists either dropping a unit or switching it up via a combination of points increases on Fuegan, Wayleapers and spammed Aspects and points decreases elsewhere. I expect something like this to happen as well. Let's see...
I think those points are ludicrous for indirect fire and the win rates certainly Don’t justify changes in any way similar to that. If they think indirect should be basically removed from the game I think it would best be managed through alternative means. As an example I Don’t understand why support weapons are 3+ to hit, with heavy. They should be BS 4+ with heavy.
But realistically there’s no data suggesting they’re actually making some game winning over impact across the board to necessitate this kind of change. This is a suggestion made by them for their playstyle preference. It’s not about balance.
The other things, 10 points up or down here or there are likely to come, especially on the known auto takes, Feugan and Wayleaper.
My gut says GW will lean in to just points for this update. My personal preference would be more specific rules updates along with point shifts.
As examples, split the Support Weapons and Wraithknights in to 3 different unit types each, give the Suncannon blast and remove blast from HWCs. Give conclave warlocks an additional pip of AP to all weapons they carry that have the psychic keyword (to reflect Jinx).
I’d also make a core change to give the Psychic keyword a rule that the damage cannot be reduced by any means (1/2 damage or FNP) unless specifically detailed (e.g. 4+ FNP against psychic attacks).
It has been confirmed that we are getting only points changes, and very few or no rules changes this time - at least for Eldar we'll probably need to wait for the codex to see new rules. For points - see their comment on what they think is more likely to happen below the wishlist :-)
Umm, why nerf the units at all that are currently being played...
Do they want our win rate below 40%??? No.
The army right now is still falling in win rates since the last dataslate, so if anything there's no nerf required. Improving under represented squads would increase list diversity and make gameplay better... if anything, that would be the better choice.
These changes would be stupid. Aeldari have slipped down to 50% Winrate since last update. And under 50% at the top tables. Other factions are now at the 57+% win rates. Aeldari are balanced now depending on the trend they may have been over nerfed.
They are somewhat problematic in matchups other than Necrons, Custodes, Sisters, Imperial Guard and Grey Knights (and these five factions are a huge part of the player base, which keeps average Aledari win rate reasonable).
All of these five factions are likely to receive substantial nerfs, and then, unless Aeldari are nerfed as well, they might become a problem again.
I wouldn't expect any major nerfs though.
I hate all of these.
Basically double the points of units you may as well just ban them from play.
In my opinion nothing really needs a nerf outside fuegan and the winged Autarch as they’re auto-include in every list and our win rate is not oppressive.
The other phoenix lords and unused units (banshees etc) should see a small buff to make them playable.
That part was the worst take in Fireside history. I do agree, on complete obliteration of indirect. But everything else is akin to a populist politician campaign slogans.
Depending on how much they do with other armies I think this is a bit harsh. My feeling listening to the episodes is that they suggested more changes to the armies they knew well which kinda makes sense. Easier to come up with suggestions if you know the key units of the faction. It's also easy to view your faction(s) as really good when you're one of the best players in the world :D As for internal balance there are def some units that could do with some help and some that are currently auto takes so a bit of tuning wouldn't hurt, but if they increase the points of hawks, spiders and specters with 5-10 points per unit and lower the points the same amount on banshees, scorpions and shining spears I think that will still be a net nerf that's really not needed right now. The problem with melee units right now is not really that they are too expensive, but that the index doesn't really support them. I think they will stay on the shelf until we get more detachments, unless they make them stupid cheap.
Sounds reasonable, thanks for the detailed reply!
I guess it all comes down to the philisophy and goals of the MFM. I honestly don't see that much point in making many changes to armies that are clearly within their target range of 45-55%. I think Eldar has been right in the middle of that every week since the last data slate. If they go hard on internal balance then there might be more changes, but in that case they'll have to do pretty broad changes to every index/codex and I'm not sure I see that happening right now. I think they'll put more focus on balancing the top / bottom armies and do the big internal changes with new releases.
Maybe, or maybe they see Eldar only been balanced by the fact that they have hard matchups in Necrons and Custodes - and those are getting nerfed. So to prevent Eldar from becoming a problem again, they might nerf them preemptively. Let's see. I don't know what will happen :-)
Yeah, they'll either have to do a lot of changes to a lot of armies or leave most of them alone. If they go hard on necrons, TS, BT, sisters and such they def have to tweak eldar a bit as well.
My wish would be something to improve Howling Banshees so they can live up to their ‘scream into melee’ role. Points reduction is always good but I feel they need a mechanical/data slate tweak, which I think is unlikely until the codex. Otherwise I actually think the points are pretty balanced at the moment. Surprised they’re still pushing for such a massive increase to NS, I thought the recent changes had taken them from ‘broken’ to just ‘really good’, on par with other factions’ ‘really good’ units. Don’t run support weapons so can’t really comment there.
See my comment after the wishlist on what they actually expect to happen :-)
Ah yep reading comprehension fail 🙂.
Vik was pushing for points on every indirect piece in the game so that you'd never see them. Not entirely serious, but also wants them gone. So take those points suggestions with a grain of salt.
Kinda pointless to suggest such ludicrous increases. They might as well advocate for these units to just be banned from competitive play. But with all that emphasis on teleporting armies I don't feel that Indirect is that much of an issue anymore. It's simply something you need to account for and bring a counter. Some armies are better at that than others but that is true for pretty much every gimmick. And we've seen triple Reapers show up lately, so why no increase here? Just weird. Night Spinners haven't been a problem unit since the slate. Increasing Fuegan, Hawks, Spiders, Dragons, Spectres & Wayleapers a bit sounds fair. I would put Fuegan at 130, Hawks at 85, Spiders at 125, Dragons at 90, Spectres at 100 and the Wayleaper at 125 which seems similar to their ~100 point estimate. I'd probably bump Rangers to 60, they are super cheap at 55 for the value you're getting. On the flipside, Guardian Defenders could get a cut and would probably feel more at home at 100. Storm Guardians have recently seen some competitive play (though rarely more than one squad) and could still come down to 110. Most Phoenix Lords are very overpriced, Maugan-Ra & Irillyth seem particularly silly at their pricepoint with Jain-Zar not too far behind. Voidreavers would feel more at home at 60, Voidscarred at 75 or 80. The units are currently mostly jank. Shining Spears are also screaming for a decrease, 120 is just absurd. They belong more in the range of 95-105. Both Wraithlords and Wraithseers are too pricey, 145 feels a lot more adequate here (Ballistus is 140 for comparison). Asurmen and Avengers are just a bit too pricey as a package, 130 for Asurmen and 65 for Avengers sounds more palatable. Warlocks of any flavour are absolute garbage, but shaving off 5 points won't change that. I'd still show some love, putting the individual ones at 40/50 and the Conclaves at 50/90. Shave 5 points off of Scorpions and 10 points off of Banshees to help the melee aspects out. Yriel at 100 is rough, 85-90 is where I'd put him. Eldrad at 100 would make him more interesting. Warp Hunter is garbage and should not be more than 120. Webway Gate might as well not exist. That would put most of the competitive lists we are seeing ~100 points up, so people would probably be forced to drop one unit of Hawks/Spectres/Spiders to make it work or, ideally, switch it up a bit.
Yep, Vik just hates indirect and wants all of it excluded from competitive play, they didn't mention Reapers only because they were going quite fast. Otherwise, you all agree on competitive lists either dropping a unit or switching it up via a combination of points increases on Fuegan, Wayleapers and spammed Aspects and points decreases elsewhere. I expect something like this to happen as well. Let's see...
I think those points are ludicrous for indirect fire and the win rates certainly Don’t justify changes in any way similar to that. If they think indirect should be basically removed from the game I think it would best be managed through alternative means. As an example I Don’t understand why support weapons are 3+ to hit, with heavy. They should be BS 4+ with heavy. But realistically there’s no data suggesting they’re actually making some game winning over impact across the board to necessitate this kind of change. This is a suggestion made by them for their playstyle preference. It’s not about balance. The other things, 10 points up or down here or there are likely to come, especially on the known auto takes, Feugan and Wayleaper. My gut says GW will lean in to just points for this update. My personal preference would be more specific rules updates along with point shifts. As examples, split the Support Weapons and Wraithknights in to 3 different unit types each, give the Suncannon blast and remove blast from HWCs. Give conclave warlocks an additional pip of AP to all weapons they carry that have the psychic keyword (to reflect Jinx). I’d also make a core change to give the Psychic keyword a rule that the damage cannot be reduced by any means (1/2 damage or FNP) unless specifically detailed (e.g. 4+ FNP against psychic attacks).
It has been confirmed that we are getting only points changes, and very few or no rules changes this time - at least for Eldar we'll probably need to wait for the codex to see new rules. For points - see their comment on what they think is more likely to happen below the wishlist :-)
Umm, why nerf the units at all that are currently being played... Do they want our win rate below 40%??? No. The army right now is still falling in win rates since the last dataslate, so if anything there's no nerf required. Improving under represented squads would increase list diversity and make gameplay better... if anything, that would be the better choice.
These changes would be stupid. Aeldari have slipped down to 50% Winrate since last update. And under 50% at the top tables. Other factions are now at the 57+% win rates. Aeldari are balanced now depending on the trend they may have been over nerfed.
Its already really hard to play fun lists with how much our stuff costs. Bring bad stuff down instead of jacking everything into the 2-300 point range
Are Eldar even still a problem? I feel like they’re not hard to deal with.
They are somewhat problematic in matchups other than Necrons, Custodes, Sisters, Imperial Guard and Grey Knights (and these five factions are a huge part of the player base, which keeps average Aledari win rate reasonable). All of these five factions are likely to receive substantial nerfs, and then, unless Aeldari are nerfed as well, they might become a problem again. I wouldn't expect any major nerfs though.
I hate all of these. Basically double the points of units you may as well just ban them from play. In my opinion nothing really needs a nerf outside fuegan and the winged Autarch as they’re auto-include in every list and our win rate is not oppressive. The other phoenix lords and unused units (banshees etc) should see a small buff to make them playable.
Did you read the whole post, below the bullet points? Yes, banning is the point - otherwise they basically agree with you.
That part was the worst take in Fireside history. I do agree, on complete obliteration of indirect. But everything else is akin to a populist politician campaign slogans.