I think 1x3 Spears could be a good tool as a backline sweeper. Thanks to their huge bases they can screen a large area and they have the volume to deal with both 10-man infantry deepstriking/outflanking into your DZ and enough quality attacks to deal with tougher stuff (Inceptors, Scouts, light vehicles like Venoms or Sentinels) when you combine their melee & shooting.
If you want to bring more than 3, I'd definitely do it in two squads, as the Exarchs carry so much of the damage potential. They get the Shuriken Cannon, the better Lance profile and an extra attack.
Based on the stuff you have I would probably just kick a Walker for a squad of Spears, but that depends on the rest of the list of course.
Thanks. That’s helpful I wasn’t thinking of using them as backend response or screeners originally but that’s something that does add more utility to them. Does it make sense to skip the cannon so they can advance and still action or does that not matter? The catapults are assault.
Rest of the list is 3x3 shroud runners, 3x4 skyweavers, 1x6 windriders with farseer skyrunner, 2 fire prisms, skyleaper.
They can still do that with the Cannon, as long as one model of the unit can shoot the unit is eligible (and the Lances are assault anyway so it's fine).
Yeah looks like it would fit that list quite well. They might even be okay holding the backline objective in that list, just "advance" them on the spot so they get the 4++ with inbuilt -1 to hit. Should make them relatively reliable against artillery.
Hey there! Looks like you've tried to submit a post or comment containing a link to Wahapedia.
Reddit is currently blocking links to all websites from .ru domains due to cybersecurity concerns. Posts containing such links are permanently removed and cannot be approved by moderators. This isn't something that the moderators of /r/Eldar have implemented, it is a Reddit-wide decision that we have no say over.
If you'd like your post to be seen by the community, please resubmit it without the link. Note that editing the post to remove the link won't work, you have to submit a new post.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/Eldar) if you have any questions or concerns.*
They have already been performing quite well vs top competitive lists, if you play them right: [https://www.reddit.com/r/Eldar/comments/1cf1dmo/siam\_hann\_pure\_bikes\_and\_skimmers\_get\_4th\_place/](https://www.reddit.com/r/Eldar/comments/1cf1dmo/siam_hann_pure_bikes_and_skimmers_get_4th_place/)
We probably won't see whole armies of Spears, but 1 or 2 min size units should be fine :-)
Not at the top tables of Supermajors, but at regular GTs - sure.
Honestly, no, they still can't do the job of heavy infantry/light vehicle killers, and for 5 fewer points, you can get skyweavers, which just do their jobs but better. Love my spears, but s4 and very low volume of attacks really kills the unit even with lance
As for utilities, they are worse than spiders. In nearly every measure. Bigger bases, far slower, no infantry keyword, and no damage.
Well, it's not their job this edition. Their job is skirmishing with infantry (they on average remove 7 Marines a turn in shooting and charging, which is better than any other unit we have at this price point) and move-blocking / charge-blocking with their huge bases.
I'd argue that nobody is really throwing normal unbuffed marine bodies up the board, but elite infantry, TEQs, and vehicles/monsters. It's only going to get worse with the upcoming ork megnobz. Even as a skirmish/move blocking unit, save 20 points and take Shroud Runners.
I'd think the best way to use them would be as backline disruption, but even then, warpspiders and shrouds do the job better.
Killing unbuffed marine bodies is what they are best at for sure, but get a little tougher or get a little more hordy, and you will bounce and get clapped back
p.p.s. Just ran some Unitcrunch vs Armigers. Spears are the best unit in the index at killing Armigers per point. The only slightly better unit is outside Aeldari index - Haywire Scourge, but even that it close. Spears are better than Haywire bikers, Dark Lance Scourge, and over 2 times better than War Walkers or D-Cannons.
Sorry could you expand on this Alex? I can’t see spears doing anything meaningful into that target. Everything is wounding 5s right? (I’m rushing to get ready for work so can’t do the maths now :().
Yes, but they get a good number of 2D shots and attacks. And they are only 100 points. This is the metric where I get average damage from Unitcunch (including detachment rerolls), and then divide it by the pts that the unit costs. By that metric into most targets Spears are the most killy unit in the index, often by a large margin!
The downside is that to get these numbers they have to both shoot within 6" and charge. In most cases, that would imply Rapid Ingress. So costs a CP.
p.s. I might be slightly off or might have missed some minor details, but it should be close enough.
They aren't bad at clearing hoards either. Shroud runners remove 6 Guardsmen in cover with Target Acquisition. Shining Spears remove 12 if they get to shoot and charge - twice as many for only 20 more points. And then with 4++ and -1 to hit on a charge they aren't afraid of charging real melee units with small numbers of attacks, while Shroud Runners can't do it and can only move-block.
p.s. I'm not saying that we'll suddenly start seeing Spears taking Supermajors. But they don't seem to be a bad unit with no role that you seem to imply - at least at the level of regular GTs 1-2 small units of Spears look playable if your list needs them (never-mind RTTs and semi-competitive games): [https://www.reddit.com/r/Eldar/comments/1cf1dmo/siam\_hann\_pure\_bikes\_and\_skimmers\_get\_4th\_place/](https://www.reddit.com/r/Eldar/comments/1cf1dmo/siam_hann_pure_bikes_and_skimmers_get_4th_place/)
My fear is that they are good against the things we're already good against.
Like who here as trouble clearing marine bodies? Raise your hand :)
I love the models and will def try it, but I feel like they are the answer to the wrong kinds of problems.
Run some Unitcrunch ;-)
Per point, if they get to both shoot and charge, Spears are perhaps the killiest unit in the whole index into most profiles :-) It's not just Marines.
Cool, didnt expct that :D
I'm gonna try them on a small event on sunday I think. I like the idea of starting them in reserve and ingressing them. Should be a worthwhile workaround of their lackluster movement in 10th.
I have been running spears in reserves, viable as rapid ingress to get a move shoot charge off also works well for stealing objectives with F&F 6oc and only 20 points more than hawks now
Is this legal? I was under the impression that they updated the Rapid Ingress stratagem so it only works on Deepstrike units, not Strategic Reserved units.
*Your unit can arrive on the battlefield as if it were the Reinforcements step of your Movement phase, and* ***if every model in that unit has the Deep Strike ability,*** *you can set that unit up as described in the Deep Strike ability (even though it is not your Movement phase).*
Or have I misunderstood this?
That reads to me like deepstrike has an additional condition not that it is required. If every model has x they can do y. Not every model has to have x to do z, z being use rapid ingress, and y being setup according to deep strike. But that’s my interpretation.
You can still come in from a table edge as normal with the rapid ingress strategem. to come anywhere outside of 9" you need everyone in the unit to have deep strike.
Since they move quite far I can definitely see this as being a valid strategy!
Spears definitely have a place - I think the points changes make them a lot more considerable.
They are slower than Spiders (need to move around terrain). But they don’t mind melee, so they are good for flipping objectives and their damage output isn’t that bad when combining shooting and melee.
Their utility comes from careful positioning, they want to flank and engage - which makes them useful for back table protecting/clearing and mid board contesting.
And as others said - having them as two squads of 3 instead of one unit of 6 will just increase damage output from the Exarchs and give better survivability for utility (I think putting them into a big block of 200 makes them an easier target to wipe out first as you won’t block line of sight easily, when really you want them there in mid and late game).
I like one unit of 3 for rapid ingress, but apart from that they're gonna struggle to get around buildings with their gigantic bases. Would not reccomend swapping them for spiders if your goal is going even with the top meta armies, but games with mates should be perfectly fine. They're not a bad unit, just not as good as the others.
The problem with spears as a melee mounted unit is that terrain makes it very difficult to get in position for a charge without first being massively exposed.
I'm not a fan. It's close, but it's a fundamental rule issue.
I think 1x3 Spears could be a good tool as a backline sweeper. Thanks to their huge bases they can screen a large area and they have the volume to deal with both 10-man infantry deepstriking/outflanking into your DZ and enough quality attacks to deal with tougher stuff (Inceptors, Scouts, light vehicles like Venoms or Sentinels) when you combine their melee & shooting. If you want to bring more than 3, I'd definitely do it in two squads, as the Exarchs carry so much of the damage potential. They get the Shuriken Cannon, the better Lance profile and an extra attack. Based on the stuff you have I would probably just kick a Walker for a squad of Spears, but that depends on the rest of the list of course.
Thanks. That’s helpful I wasn’t thinking of using them as backend response or screeners originally but that’s something that does add more utility to them. Does it make sense to skip the cannon so they can advance and still action or does that not matter? The catapults are assault. Rest of the list is 3x3 shroud runners, 3x4 skyweavers, 1x6 windriders with farseer skyrunner, 2 fire prisms, skyleaper.
They can still do that with the Cannon, as long as one model of the unit can shoot the unit is eligible (and the Lances are assault anyway so it's fine). Yeah looks like it would fit that list quite well. They might even be okay holding the backline objective in that list, just "advance" them on the spot so they get the 4++ with inbuilt -1 to hit. Should make them relatively reliable against artillery.
Thanks for clarifying I forgot about the lance also having assault. I appreciate your insight.
[удалено]
Hey there! Looks like you've tried to submit a post or comment containing a link to Wahapedia. Reddit is currently blocking links to all websites from .ru domains due to cybersecurity concerns. Posts containing such links are permanently removed and cannot be approved by moderators. This isn't something that the moderators of /r/Eldar have implemented, it is a Reddit-wide decision that we have no say over. If you'd like your post to be seen by the community, please resubmit it without the link. Note that editing the post to remove the link won't work, you have to submit a new post. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/Eldar) if you have any questions or concerns.*
No, that isn't right. But they still could do an action.
Right, you made it sound like the shuriken cannon could fire lol
"The unit being eligible to shoot" is just the terminology GW uses. The unit is eligible, just not every weapon.
I get you, just when I read it, I misunderstood you
Just no more paragon sword tho like in 9th?
I mean it's okay, S4 just really sucks. If there's a way in a new detachment to get full rerolls to wound that might be a different story.
Anti heavy infantry unit and s4... sadge
Yeah bumping them to S5 would be so huge for them. Maybe once the codex arrives.
They have already been performing quite well vs top competitive lists, if you play them right: [https://www.reddit.com/r/Eldar/comments/1cf1dmo/siam\_hann\_pure\_bikes\_and\_skimmers\_get\_4th\_place/](https://www.reddit.com/r/Eldar/comments/1cf1dmo/siam_hann_pure_bikes_and_skimmers_get_4th_place/) We probably won't see whole armies of Spears, but 1 or 2 min size units should be fine :-) Not at the top tables of Supermajors, but at regular GTs - sure.
Honestly, no, they still can't do the job of heavy infantry/light vehicle killers, and for 5 fewer points, you can get skyweavers, which just do their jobs but better. Love my spears, but s4 and very low volume of attacks really kills the unit even with lance As for utilities, they are worse than spiders. In nearly every measure. Bigger bases, far slower, no infantry keyword, and no damage.
Well, it's not their job this edition. Their job is skirmishing with infantry (they on average remove 7 Marines a turn in shooting and charging, which is better than any other unit we have at this price point) and move-blocking / charge-blocking with their huge bases.
I'd argue that nobody is really throwing normal unbuffed marine bodies up the board, but elite infantry, TEQs, and vehicles/monsters. It's only going to get worse with the upcoming ork megnobz. Even as a skirmish/move blocking unit, save 20 points and take Shroud Runners. I'd think the best way to use them would be as backline disruption, but even then, warpspiders and shrouds do the job better. Killing unbuffed marine bodies is what they are best at for sure, but get a little tougher or get a little more hordy, and you will bounce and get clapped back
p.p.s. Just ran some Unitcrunch vs Armigers. Spears are the best unit in the index at killing Armigers per point. The only slightly better unit is outside Aeldari index - Haywire Scourge, but even that it close. Spears are better than Haywire bikers, Dark Lance Scourge, and over 2 times better than War Walkers or D-Cannons.
Sorry could you expand on this Alex? I can’t see spears doing anything meaningful into that target. Everything is wounding 5s right? (I’m rushing to get ready for work so can’t do the maths now :().
Yes, but they get a good number of 2D shots and attacks. And they are only 100 points. This is the metric where I get average damage from Unitcunch (including detachment rerolls), and then divide it by the pts that the unit costs. By that metric into most targets Spears are the most killy unit in the index, often by a large margin! The downside is that to get these numbers they have to both shoot within 6" and charge. In most cases, that would imply Rapid Ingress. So costs a CP. p.s. I might be slightly off or might have missed some minor details, but it should be close enough.
They aren't bad at clearing hoards either. Shroud runners remove 6 Guardsmen in cover with Target Acquisition. Shining Spears remove 12 if they get to shoot and charge - twice as many for only 20 more points. And then with 4++ and -1 to hit on a charge they aren't afraid of charging real melee units with small numbers of attacks, while Shroud Runners can't do it and can only move-block.
p.s. I'm not saying that we'll suddenly start seeing Spears taking Supermajors. But they don't seem to be a bad unit with no role that you seem to imply - at least at the level of regular GTs 1-2 small units of Spears look playable if your list needs them (never-mind RTTs and semi-competitive games): [https://www.reddit.com/r/Eldar/comments/1cf1dmo/siam\_hann\_pure\_bikes\_and\_skimmers\_get\_4th\_place/](https://www.reddit.com/r/Eldar/comments/1cf1dmo/siam_hann_pure_bikes_and_skimmers_get_4th_place/)
Absolutely agree for 100 points they are suddenly not so useless.
My fear is that they are good against the things we're already good against. Like who here as trouble clearing marine bodies? Raise your hand :) I love the models and will def try it, but I feel like they are the answer to the wrong kinds of problems.
Run some Unitcrunch ;-) Per point, if they get to both shoot and charge, Spears are perhaps the killiest unit in the whole index into most profiles :-) It's not just Marines.
Cool, didnt expct that :D I'm gonna try them on a small event on sunday I think. I like the idea of starting them in reserve and ingressing them. Should be a worthwhile workaround of their lackluster movement in 10th.
I have been running spears in reserves, viable as rapid ingress to get a move shoot charge off also works well for stealing objectives with F&F 6oc and only 20 points more than hawks now
Is this legal? I was under the impression that they updated the Rapid Ingress stratagem so it only works on Deepstrike units, not Strategic Reserved units. *Your unit can arrive on the battlefield as if it were the Reinforcements step of your Movement phase, and* ***if every model in that unit has the Deep Strike ability,*** *you can set that unit up as described in the Deep Strike ability (even though it is not your Movement phase).* Or have I misunderstood this?
That reads to me like deepstrike has an additional condition not that it is required. If every model has x they can do y. Not every model has to have x to do z, z being use rapid ingress, and y being setup according to deep strike. But that’s my interpretation.
You can still come in from a table edge as normal with the rapid ingress strategem. to come anywhere outside of 9" you need everyone in the unit to have deep strike. Since they move quite far I can definitely see this as being a valid strategy!
That bit you quoted just means "if the unit has deepstrike you can deepstrike it as rapid ingress" Absolutely legit strategy
Ace - just my misunderstanding then! Thank you for clarifying.
Spears definitely have a place - I think the points changes make them a lot more considerable. They are slower than Spiders (need to move around terrain). But they don’t mind melee, so they are good for flipping objectives and their damage output isn’t that bad when combining shooting and melee. Their utility comes from careful positioning, they want to flank and engage - which makes them useful for back table protecting/clearing and mid board contesting. And as others said - having them as two squads of 3 instead of one unit of 6 will just increase damage output from the Exarchs and give better survivability for utility (I think putting them into a big block of 200 makes them an easier target to wipe out first as you won’t block line of sight easily, when really you want them there in mid and late game).
I like one unit of 3 for rapid ingress, but apart from that they're gonna struggle to get around buildings with their gigantic bases. Would not reccomend swapping them for spiders if your goal is going even with the top meta armies, but games with mates should be perfectly fine. They're not a bad unit, just not as good as the others.
The problem with spears as a melee mounted unit is that terrain makes it very difficult to get in position for a charge without first being massively exposed. I'm not a fan. It's close, but it's a fundamental rule issue.
Even at 75 pts they are still crap...their issue is not their points cost (still overcosted) their problem is their datasheet.