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immigration isn't something that should be based on percentages or quotas.
It should be more about need, willingness to integrate and how people fit in the existing society.
There's a large group of karen(burmese refugees) in the area I live, and they are very much loved by locals and employers for their attitude and work ethics, to the point that most would love more of them here.
Bigger issues tend to come from large groups that get insulated inside their own social circles and people that try to keep their old norms (especially from countries that are less equal for women and lgbt people)
imo we need much more immigrants for our pension system to hold up, and non-Muslim Asians seems to integrate fairly well and have low arrest rates, especially Chinese and Indians who gets even arrested less than "whites" https://www.ethnicity-facts-figures.service.gov.uk/crime-justice-and-the-law/policing/number-of-arrests/latest
in the UK, the most common surnames of doctors are Patel and Khan, and its been Patel in the US since 1970
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2738067/Dr-Khan-likely-Asian-surname-common-doctors-Patel-second.html
https://www.andhrafriends.com/topic/887189-the-most-common-last-name-among-american-physicians-is-no-longer-smith-its-patel/
It would be nice yes. It would be great things around the world were **need before greed**.
It does also - a bit - seem like a fantasy world where no doubt there are also no arguments about anything ever. If **Finland** was turned into an *all doors open utopia* overnight, the masses of people coming here would start a war(s).
This rate is optimal if we want people to integrate. The 20 % rate is for those people who say "We do not expect anybody to learn Finnish" as it creates parallel societies.
Also you guys dont have such a workforce hungry industry’s like in Germany. No disrespect but the germans will always need more and more workers. Ever since the large arrival of millions of turks and italians in west germany in the 60s, the germans all 20 years or so took in large numbers of people from foreign places to feed its hungry economy. 2 million turks and italians in the 60s and 70s, 3 million Balkans/polish and russians in the 90s and 1,5 million Syrians and Africans since 2015. its just a normal thing for them. But not for Finnland because its not needed there
Finnish culture and custom does not require learning Finnish. Swedish is enough legally and culturally and Sami legally. Finnish national culture is not Finnish-excluse like the nazis try to con us to believe. 1917 Constitution explicitely rejected this idea tying nationality to language
It's not only one of them unfortunately. Also a friend of a friend said that in a similar way. Based on these I estimate that at least 10 % of native Finns do not expect foreigners to learn the language, given that they already speak good English. That, however, makes it really difficult to integrate, because you will be eternally excluded from all the Finnish-speaking stuff. English and its comforts are the most common insurmountable barrier for white-collar workers to learn Finnish.
Friend of a friend ? Lol. So based on two people you extrapolate that 10% of Finns feel this way ? I really do hope that you aren’t older than let’s say 14.
This is no statistics, but how should I make you take that seriously? Those people are not isolated cases, but a significant group of Finns that think like that. Do your own survey if you have the time, I only have time to share anecdotal evidence.
What do you mean, this is no statistcs ? I spend time with a lot of pro immigration people an literally 0 of them think that immigrants shouldn’t learn Finnish.
The same applies there, but people in this circles generally have much more realistic expectations. I’m guessing that why you mean people not requiring immigrants to know Finnish.
How would you increase the immigrant share of the population in Finland? I mean, would the idea be to lock them up or otherwise preventing them to leave.
Finnish climate, taxation, language/cultural barriers and Nordic location makes many immigrants to „fixit“ pretty fast.
There are many more benign places to relocate in Europe and elsewhere.
Because of the reasons you mentioned, the only thing that makes Finland attractive for a tech/skilled immigrant is 4-5 years citizenship requirement. Now the government is totally destroying that by doubling the years, without any compensating change that would make the country attractive.
One of my old colleagues loves Nordics. He said ok, I will move there and create a life. He did his own research and he was choosing between Sweden and Finland, just because he wants to be part of the society, in other words, being a citizen, in shorter time. He got the offer from Sweden and moved there in 2020. He is a team lead in one of the big financial companies, paying 50k SEK taxes a month, already speaking Swedish at some level, bought an apartment, waiting 1.5 years more to apply for citizenship. His reaction after hearing Finnish governments proposal was "good that I did not move there". Now run this scenario for a similar person who is considering Nordic options.
I do not believe increasing years of citizenship will decrease the number of immigrants that Finland does not want. However, for sure, many tech/skilled immigrants will not consider to move to Finland anymore.
Yes, exactly. I mentioned under another thread that, my friend is considering to move away already. He has been in Finland for 1.5 years and he doesn’t want to wait 6.5 years for citizenship application. He was ignoring offers (mainly from the Netherlands) on LinkedIn but now started to reply. I think he will be gone before the end of the year already.
These people are smart and will not wait for things to happen before taking an action. The announcement of the program was enough for them to change plans.
Makes sense. I am kind of in the same boat. Been here 2 years but not going to sacrifice career options and living a normal life for another 6 years just waiting for citizenship. Wife's Finnish already, and there are countries with twice the pay and a better weather, easier language if citizenship is not a criteria anymore. Also current job supports moving to any EU country-I'm guessing that's the case for most IT/MNC workers. In wait and watch mode for a few months, might make the move by end of year.
exactly, people who has options will choose where to live and contribute. I don’t know how Finland can become more attractive with these proposed policies.
Well, tbh the biggest gripe about moving here is actually the pay, its quite low on all levels. And stop peojecting this fear porn all around, they can not pass such laws as they are now.
The agenda about planned changes is still valid though, isn’t it?
Should we just stop talking and then cross our fingers that changes will not become effective?
No need to stop the debate, mostly just stop these 20 iq end of the world stories.
I'm not too fond of them "planned" changes either, but i do give them a chance. Afterall, our last 4 years were a farce on so many levels.
Just saying what is happening and will also potentially happen, based on my experience and as much as I know from my circle. Why does it bother you so much?
Btw, I was not a big fan of last government but the current one is no better, if not worse. Orpo has been a disappointment so far. I never thought he would give up so much, just for the sake of creating a government. I can easily say that last 2 weeks have been more farce than last 4 years ever been. Until last 2 weeks I never received a question from other side of the world, like ”what the hell is happening in Finland?”
But anyway, thanks, I will take your feedback into consideration and try not to repeat myself. I am sad and a bit depressed by recent events. Otherwise, I love Finland and hope for the best 🤞🏼
Immigration is something that should happen organically and not for the sake of fulfilling numbers. It is a known fact that demographic changes come with their own challenges. Nothing is black and white.
We are preached that multi-culture is great. Yes, it can be great when cultures accept each other values but we are not there yet. It is a known fact that there is friction between native culture and immigrant culture especially in a country like Finland where language is a big barrier among immigrants.
So, this whole idea that we should get more immigrants for the sake of getting more immigrants is ignorant.
Also, I would like an explicit distinction between immigrants and refugees. Yes, they might represent foreigners but they represent foreigners with completely different interests.
Edit: spelling
I am an immigrant, I have made a family here, and I am a tax-payer. I contribute positively to the Finnish society. As such, I will say that the 6.9% is a net gain to Finland.
It was hard at first, due to the language barrier and the fact that Finland is a small market, so the suitable jobs were very limited. But I was given a chance, some open-minded Finns believed in my ability and I have proven them right every single time.
My Finnish partner once told me - with some awe in his face - that I have "a protestant work ethic", meaning that I had reversed all the negative stereotypes about Mediterranean people which were ingrained in his brain. He now knows better. He also appreciates the substantial culinary enrichment to his life.
Yes, I wonder why elitists thinking like that would even come here if it's so bad. You know, why not choose a different destination with all that perfect food and perfect culture in it? We do not have enough olive oil and chili powder, the measurements of high culture.
And often I hear the same thing on European subreddits. Like, how can an Italian simultaneously tell me our culture and cuisine and everything sucks, and then turn around and demand my tax money? Arrogance beyond belief.
I think European immigrants in Finland are on average more educated and probably pay more taxes than Finns (I know I pay wayyy more taxes than the average). But that doesn't matter. Paying taxes doesn't mean you can spit in the local's face. Personally I always tell my kids that this is not our country, it's the homeland of the Finns and we need to respect them. Doesn't mean I am going to like your food or adopt the Finnish way of life.
Massive immigration from Africa and Middle-East has brought massive problems in every single country where it has been happening. Maybe for Finland it will be different? It's worth trying, what's the worst that could happen, Finns losing their homeland?
Covid and war changed a lot. I can speak for Finland and Estonia. I'm pretty sure that's also actual for all other countries. 2019 is the wrong year to take as an example. 2023 is needed.
Also, in Estonia and Latvia, probably people born in other former USSR countries are taken as immigrants. But it is not correct. Immigration should be considered for post-1991 foreign-born people. And that will change the percentage vastly.
If you were to guess how much would you say is the current percentage of immigrants in Finland?
Wikipedia says in 2021 immigrants represented 8.5% of the total population in Finland
According to [stat.fi](https://stat.fi) (screenshot attached) Immigrants: 9,37% ([also link](https://pxdata.stat.fi/PxWeb/pxweb/en/StatFin/StatFin__vaerak/statfin_vaerak_pxt_11rp.px/table/tableViewLayout1/))
These are not very accurate statistics. They don't include Ukrainian refugees because there are just 5367 Ukrainians at the end of 2022 (stat.fi). According to the [Eurostat](https://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/infographics/ukraine-refugees-eu/), there were 48k already in Finland.
https://preview.redd.it/4xkkgyku3b9b1.png?width=1730&format=png&auto=webp&s=64c2e8799b735230a8e685053ddc8514c68d4520
The problem with Finland is that it kinda needs immigration, but rarely draws inspiration outside of Sweden. There are many nations around the world with successful immigration policies but to Finns Sweden is the only country that matters for some reason.
>There are many nations around the world with successful immigration policies
If I'm not mistaken most Western European countries have miserably failed to integrate many or even most of their immigrants.
The exception is actually having lots of immigrants who have successfully integrated into society.
If by immigrants you mean only Arabs and Africans then sure. But Finland can't even attract white people. If Western Europe is failing so miserably then why are people from all around the world moving to those countries and not the safe, white Finland?
Finland missed the mark in the 20th century by not welcoming educated Persians or hardworking Poles, and will make the same mistake again by only comparing itself to Sweden.
I'm from Latin America, from my perspective I think it might be because Finnish is way too hard to learn, also you have countries like Sweden, Norway and Denmark that are as developed as Finland with much easier languages to learn. Also it doesn't help Norway is ridiculously rich due to the oil they found, an immigrant might ask themselves why would I choose Finland if I have Denmark or Sweden that speak easier languages? And let alone freaking Norway with their salaries.
I think if Finnish was another Germanic language Finland would attract way more immigrants.
Which means that Finland needs to create policies that educated immigrants can't refuse. Again, it should figure out ways to make it easier to integrate and draw inspiration from successful countries. Not look to Sweden and then give up while population is heading towards decline lol.
I agree, I believe wages also play a big role, for example despite all the things Germany has tried they are still having a lot of issues attracting qualified immigrants because of salaries.
Some of these qualified immigrants are choosing to leave Germany once they've established themselves in Germany because once you've been working in Germany for a while it's easy to emigrate to Switzerland, Norway etc.
Some of these immigrants are leaving Germany for Switzerland, a country with much much higher salaries and arguably even better quality of life than Germany where they still can speak in German, the same language they learned when they wanted to emigrate to Germany.
Finland needs to come up with some great offer for these qualified immigrants, something so great they might even skip Norway, Denmark or Sweden in order to work in Finland.
Yeah it's obviously difficult to compete with those countries. Luckily for Finland and Germany they have good image for the most part. They just need to find ways to keep the educated people in and motivate the unemployed to start working.
Hopefully this new government is at least capable of creating more jobs.
Percentage is the wrong way of looking at something like immigration. The important thing is that the rate of immigration is manageable by the state, that people receive education, find housing, find employment and integrate into society. We don't want slums full of unemployed people who feel like they aren't part of society.
Percentage is irrelevant. Quality of the immigrants is what matters. Switzerland has by far the highest amount on the chart and they have pretty much none of the problems Sweden, Germany, France, Belgium or Netherlands have... But based on the quality of the ones coming to Finland in the last decades we must try to keep the percentage as low as possible or we too will soon have problems out of control...
If considering it as a percentage, I think 15 to 20% maximum sounds ok. This coming from the thought that *Finland is what it is because we don’t have a lot of people here overall*. Many Finnish people like the peace and quiet, and we don’t wish that our culture will change too much. Our healthcare system is built upon that kind of **Finland**.
Then again… perhaps the future demands that our system changes and we need a total of 10M population instead of 5M.
Tbh that percentage is perferct because 6,9 but i think that there should not be anymore immigrants if you dont live in finland you dont know anything whats happening here its already pretty bad in helsinki
Wow, I live in Helsinki and I was completely ignorant that there are gangs of Finnish children pillaging the streets! Where areas are they usually targeting?
Well I don't live in Helsinki so I would not know. But it's almost daily something in the news about this. Here's a starter https://yle.fi/a/74-20022340 (in English)
Oh snap, crazy stuff. That article doesn’t give details about the background of the members. Seems like a homegrown problem. Lack of opportunities for those people?
I don't know, I'm not in the government so cannot speak on their behalf... But most likely because the majority of them are born here and have citizenship...
I see but does that only happen in Helsinki? Or are the other cities in Finland with the same situation? I'm asking that question because in countries like Germany that doesn't only happen in Berlin but in many other cities. Since you're from Finland you must know very well what's happened in Sweden with several of their cities.
Also is it as bad as in Malmö/Paris what happens in Helsinki? Or isn't it that bad?
Yes I am very aware of the Swedish situation as I visit Sweden often (many times a year for few decades already) and follow their news weekly. Currently only Helsinki has problems and they are still somewhat under control. There were some similar gang problems starting in Turku recently but supposedly police got it under control. No not nearly as bad as in Malmö/Paris. But Helsinki is now in the first stage where Malmö/Paris once were. 10-20 years ago you would be laughed at when you suggested that if we aren't more careful with our immigration we are going to see these problems (and I would know as I was one of those who warned about this back then and either got laughed at or blamed to be "racist". Even lost some friends because I dared to suggest that there might possibly be some negative side-effects of letting in half the world...)
Good to know Finland hasn't got to that point.
I'm 100% in favor of only letting in some immigrants and in most cases only highly skilled professionals who in most if not in all cases are very educated people who would never cause trouble.
From my perspective I also think some of the reasons why most of these Western European countries are having the same issues is due to lack of patriotism, due to modern feminism which makes women believe they shouldn't have kids and if they do they only give birth to one or two kids and other radical leftist woke ideologies like for example the idea there shouldn't be any borders, the idea everybody can live in the same place, the idea people should have the right to live wherever they want and so on.
I see Finland has a solid right-wing party in PS that opposes all those things, what can you tell me about them? Do they really mean to do the things they propose? Do you think they're the right party to save Finland from becoming another Sweden or France?
You have many good points in your analyze. Unfortunately the new government is quite fragile and one minister from PS had to resign after only 10 days due to right wing extremist ties and online comments he had made. PS is generally seen as a populist party whose main question is immigration (as in keeping it restrictive), and the scandal with the minister confirms this quite well. Leftist media hates them and tries to blackmail them as much as possible and unfortunately they attract a lot of idiots to the party so there is usually some of their MPs who have done something stupid. Personally I still voted for them, not because I like them very much, but because they are the only party which sees the risks with too liberal immigration policies. I think PS is the balancing power that the goverment need to save Finland, and PS seem to have only gotten their immigration related question into the goverment programme, which is good, as that is really the only question where they have good policies.
> Unfortunately the new government is quite fragile and one minister from PS had to resign after only 10 days due to right wing extremist ties and online comments he had made.
What did he say exactly?
Percentage itself is meaningless. Like 99% of complaints about immigration consider asylum seekers or refugees, but they're something like a 20% of total immigration.
As far as the far larger segment people coming for studies or work, I literally don't care at all whether the number is hundred thousand, million, or two million immigrants, so long as we have a job market for them.
It's virtually guaranteed that in a few decades we'll be in a situation where we'd need more immigrants than we can find.
Only X amount of immigrants can be integrated into society in a certain time. If we take more than that, we create isolated cells of people with their culture, language and even some form of rules within their community. I don't know what that figure is, but the current model doesn't even integrate all people we've taken in. Again, I'm no expert, so I cant put my finger on the number we should take, or the best ways to integrate immigrants to a society, but I think more thought should be put into the latter even if the new government wants to restrict the amount coming in. The attention of Basic Finns is limited to the immigration progress - when they're here, Basic Finns run all out of ideas.
Integration is a tough one, when I was attending the intense language courses, I was shocked how little my classmates knew about Finland - like not even the most basic stuff. Now of course there might be some other reasons for this happening but it certainly does appear at least on the surface that many are there only because TE made them go there.
Had the same experience. It's interesting how Finns think of "Integration" mostly in term of language skills and employment, but in truth what they are looking for is having people learn what could be described as "general western culture and practices".
i.e, who can you approach, with what tone, what should you expect from other people, what media should you consume, references you need to know, what to dress like and what not to dress like. "don't bother my senses in public space and we are OK".
I had Soldiers of Odin tell me that "no we are not talking about people like YOU" when I'm a Jewish immigrant with near 0 language skills who stole a good Finnish woman from them. If not me, then who?
It's not the same, but French and Finnish are definitely closer than Finnish and say, Somali or Iraqi. The later are facing much tougher time integrating as their culture and practices are miles away from Finnish ones, while olive-europeans usually understand the "do and don't" pretty quickly because they are observed to some degree in their country of origin - which can be said for most western countries.
e.g, playing loud music in public spaces, knowing when a woman is not interested, punctuality, personal space. As much as you can mock the French for being loud or obtrusive, they do have similar concepts just weighed differently in importance.
It is necessary to remember that “immigration” in the case of EU law is about 3rd countries, and practically sneaked Estonian fellow who was integrated even before relocation due to similar culture and language is an immigrant too.
You're right. I didn't take up that people with less cultural, linguistic and religious differences integrate easier, but I guess that goes without saying.
I think the bigger consern isn't the amount but more where people immigrating will be placed and what sort of immigration is it. The problems in Sweden and Germany have been mostly been caused by population concentrations of certain groups, so not much integration can happen.
People permanently living in Finland should be motivated to learn the language and the customs, and if there is another culture and language side by side with Finnish one, it makes integration much more difficult. The goal is to have them become Finns eventually, and that requires both work and support.
Worst thing for everyone involved is another Malmö that just works as a "dumping ground" for unskilled immigration.
Sweden has twice our population, so as a proportion of the citizen population these rates are fairly similar. Sweden also has a very _high_ rate for its size, arguably more than they are capable of dealing with. Don't get me wrong, I'm not against immigration, but you have to have a realistic plan in place for integrating those who arrive. Cordoning off immigrant communities in slums isn't an acceptable solution.
It's also worth noting that Finland's initial willingness to accept immigration was never as high as Sweden's. Our country has a _lot_ of our own version of 'hicks and rednecks'. For a long time they were bottled up by the Centre, and the agrarian predecessors of PS. Now the PS is dictating the direction of the Right in Finland. Recent immigration aggravated intolerance, but the intolerance was always there.
The percentage should be AS LOW as possible. This is based on evidence found around the world. Immigration as a whole is always a negative. I have nothing against any human, but if we look at the statistics, it's a really bad idea to allow many immigrants or migrants to move into Finland. Real multiculturalism is different cultures in different coutries, I'll always remember the time I traveled to Oslo Norway and expected to see Norvegian people but no, it was full of migrants and three minutes after going out of my hotel there was all these wannabe gangsters walking around with a boombox and one guy tried selling drugs to us. All the windows were spraypainted and it look'd like an American ghetto.
The topic of immigration is complex and multifaceted, and different perspectives exist on how it should be approached. The factors you mentioned, such as necessity, willingness to assimilate, and compatibility with the host society, are indeed important considerations in immigration policies. Many argue that a holistic assessment of individuals based on these factors can lead to better integration and social cohesion.The positive experiences with the Karen community in your local area are a testament to the potential benefits of immigration when certain conditions are met. When immigrants are willing to embrace the values, norms, and customs of the host society, and when they contribute positively to the local community, it can foster a sense of unity and mutual appreciation.
As a Canadian, I might have some insight. Canada is a country that has in recent years really really ramped up immigration and has a policy of multiculturalism.
Here in Canada the government is pushing for more immigration because the relatively low birth rate of the established population. They are trying to increase the amount of working age population because it makes the economy stronger in their mind. Many Canadians aren’t interested in working for minimum wage in shitty jobs.
People who are desperate to leave their home countries to seek more opportunities in Canada from a place like India or the Philippines are more willing work these jobs. I believe working these jobs may also help people get work permits here which is sort of the first step to immigrate.
Generally most immigrants are good hard working people who contribute to Canada as a whole. But there can be issues with introducing huge amounts of people who come from very different cultural backgrounds to your country. In Canada there is a legal requirement that all cultures must be respected and we aren’t really supposed to assimilate people to Canadian culture.
In my opinion if you are injecting a large amount of foreign culture into your culture your culture will change unless they are expected to conform strictly to your cultural identity. As an example some people from middle eastern countries may come with much more traditional views towards women. Chinese immigrants may have a culture which more strongly reflects the importance of status, prestige or reputation which to Canadians can come off as showy or elitist. I don’t like either of those since those are not the values I was brought up with as a Canadian.
I think immigration is sort of a lazy way of improving your economy, I think if companies cannot hire local people to do the job they either need to pay more or automate that job. Relying on foreign workers who will work for less will in the long time hurt your economy.
Immigration is totally fine I just think if a person is moving to another country they should be expected to integrate into the culture and values of that nation. Importing too many people too quickly will not allow for people to naturally integrate and will often form their own isolated social groups which is counter productive.
Also come up with a national housing strategy because if there is more demand for accommodation then there is new housing being built if causes massive cost of living increases. Look at how every country that has a large push for immigration has been dropping on the human development index versus those who are more strict are improving or staying static.
Ohh yeah it can also create more tensions and more polarization between left and right leaning groups which we really can’t afford to be dealing with right now.
there are generally 2 types of people - consumers and producers. A country would benefit attracting producers of all kinds - entrepreneurs (low end to high end), and a affluent profile of "consumers". Regardless of ethnicity, producers generally add value to the adopted country through providing goods and services whereas Consumers will spend money to buy goods and services from Finnish businesses. Increasing citizenship eligibility years doesnt help in anyway.
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immigration isn't something that should be based on percentages or quotas. It should be more about need, willingness to integrate and how people fit in the existing society. There's a large group of karen(burmese refugees) in the area I live, and they are very much loved by locals and employers for their attitude and work ethics, to the point that most would love more of them here. Bigger issues tend to come from large groups that get insulated inside their own social circles and people that try to keep their old norms (especially from countries that are less equal for women and lgbt people)
imo we need much more immigrants for our pension system to hold up, and non-Muslim Asians seems to integrate fairly well and have low arrest rates, especially Chinese and Indians who gets even arrested less than "whites" https://www.ethnicity-facts-figures.service.gov.uk/crime-justice-and-the-law/policing/number-of-arrests/latest in the UK, the most common surnames of doctors are Patel and Khan, and its been Patel in the US since 1970 https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2738067/Dr-Khan-likely-Asian-surname-common-doctors-Patel-second.html https://www.andhrafriends.com/topic/887189-the-most-common-last-name-among-american-physicians-is-no-longer-smith-its-patel/
It would be nice yes. It would be great things around the world were **need before greed**. It does also - a bit - seem like a fantasy world where no doubt there are also no arguments about anything ever. If **Finland** was turned into an *all doors open utopia* overnight, the masses of people coming here would start a war(s).
This rate is optimal if we want people to integrate. The 20 % rate is for those people who say "We do not expect anybody to learn Finnish" as it creates parallel societies.
I agree What's happening in countries like Germany, France, Sweden, etc isn't the proper way to receive immigrants
Also you guys dont have such a workforce hungry industry’s like in Germany. No disrespect but the germans will always need more and more workers. Ever since the large arrival of millions of turks and italians in west germany in the 60s, the germans all 20 years or so took in large numbers of people from foreign places to feed its hungry economy. 2 million turks and italians in the 60s and 70s, 3 million Balkans/polish and russians in the 90s and 1,5 million Syrians and Africans since 2015. its just a normal thing for them. But not for Finnland because its not needed there
Finnish culture and custom does not require learning Finnish. Swedish is enough legally and culturally and Sami legally. Finnish national culture is not Finnish-excluse like the nazis try to con us to believe. 1917 Constitution explicitely rejected this idea tying nationality to language
Who says that?
I did hear it recently in some street conversation.
A very reliable source
It's not only one of them unfortunately. Also a friend of a friend said that in a similar way. Based on these I estimate that at least 10 % of native Finns do not expect foreigners to learn the language, given that they already speak good English. That, however, makes it really difficult to integrate, because you will be eternally excluded from all the Finnish-speaking stuff. English and its comforts are the most common insurmountable barrier for white-collar workers to learn Finnish.
Friend of a friend ? Lol. So based on two people you extrapolate that 10% of Finns feel this way ? I really do hope that you aren’t older than let’s say 14.
This is no statistics, but how should I make you take that seriously? Those people are not isolated cases, but a significant group of Finns that think like that. Do your own survey if you have the time, I only have time to share anecdotal evidence.
What do you mean, this is no statistcs ? I spend time with a lot of pro immigration people an literally 0 of them think that immigrants shouldn’t learn Finnish.
Well that is your sample. Try this in IT or research, you might get different results.
The same applies there, but people in this circles generally have much more realistic expectations. I’m guessing that why you mean people not requiring immigrants to know Finnish.
Quite many Finns
Quite many Finns think what?
How would you increase the immigrant share of the population in Finland? I mean, would the idea be to lock them up or otherwise preventing them to leave. Finnish climate, taxation, language/cultural barriers and Nordic location makes many immigrants to „fixit“ pretty fast. There are many more benign places to relocate in Europe and elsewhere.
Offer Spain relocation packages to native Finns
Because of the reasons you mentioned, the only thing that makes Finland attractive for a tech/skilled immigrant is 4-5 years citizenship requirement. Now the government is totally destroying that by doubling the years, without any compensating change that would make the country attractive. One of my old colleagues loves Nordics. He said ok, I will move there and create a life. He did his own research and he was choosing between Sweden and Finland, just because he wants to be part of the society, in other words, being a citizen, in shorter time. He got the offer from Sweden and moved there in 2020. He is a team lead in one of the big financial companies, paying 50k SEK taxes a month, already speaking Swedish at some level, bought an apartment, waiting 1.5 years more to apply for citizenship. His reaction after hearing Finnish governments proposal was "good that I did not move there". Now run this scenario for a similar person who is considering Nordic options. I do not believe increasing years of citizenship will decrease the number of immigrants that Finland does not want. However, for sure, many tech/skilled immigrants will not consider to move to Finland anymore.
or many of them will seriously consider to move away from Finland, which is already happening in my social circle.
Yes, exactly. I mentioned under another thread that, my friend is considering to move away already. He has been in Finland for 1.5 years and he doesn’t want to wait 6.5 years for citizenship application. He was ignoring offers (mainly from the Netherlands) on LinkedIn but now started to reply. I think he will be gone before the end of the year already. These people are smart and will not wait for things to happen before taking an action. The announcement of the program was enough for them to change plans.
Makes sense. I am kind of in the same boat. Been here 2 years but not going to sacrifice career options and living a normal life for another 6 years just waiting for citizenship. Wife's Finnish already, and there are countries with twice the pay and a better weather, easier language if citizenship is not a criteria anymore. Also current job supports moving to any EU country-I'm guessing that's the case for most IT/MNC workers. In wait and watch mode for a few months, might make the move by end of year.
exactly, people who has options will choose where to live and contribute. I don’t know how Finland can become more attractive with these proposed policies.
Well, tbh the biggest gripe about moving here is actually the pay, its quite low on all levels. And stop peojecting this fear porn all around, they can not pass such laws as they are now.
The agenda about planned changes is still valid though, isn’t it? Should we just stop talking and then cross our fingers that changes will not become effective?
No need to stop the debate, mostly just stop these 20 iq end of the world stories. I'm not too fond of them "planned" changes either, but i do give them a chance. Afterall, our last 4 years were a farce on so many levels.
Just saying what is happening and will also potentially happen, based on my experience and as much as I know from my circle. Why does it bother you so much? Btw, I was not a big fan of last government but the current one is no better, if not worse. Orpo has been a disappointment so far. I never thought he would give up so much, just for the sake of creating a government. I can easily say that last 2 weeks have been more farce than last 4 years ever been. Until last 2 weeks I never received a question from other side of the world, like ”what the hell is happening in Finland?” But anyway, thanks, I will take your feedback into consideration and try not to repeat myself. I am sad and a bit depressed by recent events. Otherwise, I love Finland and hope for the best 🤞🏼
Immigration is something that should happen organically and not for the sake of fulfilling numbers. It is a known fact that demographic changes come with their own challenges. Nothing is black and white. We are preached that multi-culture is great. Yes, it can be great when cultures accept each other values but we are not there yet. It is a known fact that there is friction between native culture and immigrant culture especially in a country like Finland where language is a big barrier among immigrants. So, this whole idea that we should get more immigrants for the sake of getting more immigrants is ignorant. Also, I would like an explicit distinction between immigrants and refugees. Yes, they might represent foreigners but they represent foreigners with completely different interests. Edit: spelling
>So, this whole idea that we should get more immigrants for the sake of getting more immigrants is ignorant. I’ve never heard anyone claim that
I am an immigrant, I have made a family here, and I am a tax-payer. I contribute positively to the Finnish society. As such, I will say that the 6.9% is a net gain to Finland. It was hard at first, due to the language barrier and the fact that Finland is a small market, so the suitable jobs were very limited. But I was given a chance, some open-minded Finns believed in my ability and I have proven them right every single time. My Finnish partner once told me - with some awe in his face - that I have "a protestant work ethic", meaning that I had reversed all the negative stereotypes about Mediterranean people which were ingrained in his brain. He now knows better. He also appreciates the substantial culinary enrichment to his life.
A lot of Mediterranean people seem to consider it fair game to call our food and culture bad. Hello savages, I have come to show you some real food
Finnish food is awful and the culture is non-existent. But I agree that us immigrants should not tell this to your face.
Yes, I wonder why elitists thinking like that would even come here if it's so bad. You know, why not choose a different destination with all that perfect food and perfect culture in it? We do not have enough olive oil and chili powder, the measurements of high culture. And often I hear the same thing on European subreddits. Like, how can an Italian simultaneously tell me our culture and cuisine and everything sucks, and then turn around and demand my tax money? Arrogance beyond belief.
I think European immigrants in Finland are on average more educated and probably pay more taxes than Finns (I know I pay wayyy more taxes than the average). But that doesn't matter. Paying taxes doesn't mean you can spit in the local's face. Personally I always tell my kids that this is not our country, it's the homeland of the Finns and we need to respect them. Doesn't mean I am going to like your food or adopt the Finnish way of life.
Well, it seems we have a better culture of respect.
I love your last sentence!
I have pictures, stories and recipes to go with it. 
Should be lower
Massive immigration from Africa and Middle-East has brought massive problems in every single country where it has been happening. Maybe for Finland it will be different? It's worth trying, what's the worst that could happen, Finns losing their homeland?
I am unsure about how accurate these percentage rates are in some countries.
Like in which countries?
Covid and war changed a lot. I can speak for Finland and Estonia. I'm pretty sure that's also actual for all other countries. 2019 is the wrong year to take as an example. 2023 is needed. Also, in Estonia and Latvia, probably people born in other former USSR countries are taken as immigrants. But it is not correct. Immigration should be considered for post-1991 foreign-born people. And that will change the percentage vastly.
Exactly my thoughts. In Poland there are a lot of Ukrainian people now, so this rate must be different.
There is a full million now
If you were to guess how much would you say is the current percentage of immigrants in Finland? Wikipedia says in 2021 immigrants represented 8.5% of the total population in Finland
According to [stat.fi](https://stat.fi) (screenshot attached) Immigrants: 9,37% ([also link](https://pxdata.stat.fi/PxWeb/pxweb/en/StatFin/StatFin__vaerak/statfin_vaerak_pxt_11rp.px/table/tableViewLayout1/)) These are not very accurate statistics. They don't include Ukrainian refugees because there are just 5367 Ukrainians at the end of 2022 (stat.fi). According to the [Eurostat](https://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/infographics/ukraine-refugees-eu/), there were 48k already in Finland. https://preview.redd.it/4xkkgyku3b9b1.png?width=1730&format=png&auto=webp&s=64c2e8799b735230a8e685053ddc8514c68d4520
The problem with Finland is that it kinda needs immigration, but rarely draws inspiration outside of Sweden. There are many nations around the world with successful immigration policies but to Finns Sweden is the only country that matters for some reason.
>There are many nations around the world with successful immigration policies If I'm not mistaken most Western European countries have miserably failed to integrate many or even most of their immigrants. The exception is actually having lots of immigrants who have successfully integrated into society.
If by immigrants you mean only Arabs and Africans then sure. But Finland can't even attract white people. If Western Europe is failing so miserably then why are people from all around the world moving to those countries and not the safe, white Finland? Finland missed the mark in the 20th century by not welcoming educated Persians or hardworking Poles, and will make the same mistake again by only comparing itself to Sweden.
I'm from Latin America, from my perspective I think it might be because Finnish is way too hard to learn, also you have countries like Sweden, Norway and Denmark that are as developed as Finland with much easier languages to learn. Also it doesn't help Norway is ridiculously rich due to the oil they found, an immigrant might ask themselves why would I choose Finland if I have Denmark or Sweden that speak easier languages? And let alone freaking Norway with their salaries. I think if Finnish was another Germanic language Finland would attract way more immigrants.
Which means that Finland needs to create policies that educated immigrants can't refuse. Again, it should figure out ways to make it easier to integrate and draw inspiration from successful countries. Not look to Sweden and then give up while population is heading towards decline lol.
I agree, I believe wages also play a big role, for example despite all the things Germany has tried they are still having a lot of issues attracting qualified immigrants because of salaries. Some of these qualified immigrants are choosing to leave Germany once they've established themselves in Germany because once you've been working in Germany for a while it's easy to emigrate to Switzerland, Norway etc. Some of these immigrants are leaving Germany for Switzerland, a country with much much higher salaries and arguably even better quality of life than Germany where they still can speak in German, the same language they learned when they wanted to emigrate to Germany. Finland needs to come up with some great offer for these qualified immigrants, something so great they might even skip Norway, Denmark or Sweden in order to work in Finland.
Yeah it's obviously difficult to compete with those countries. Luckily for Finland and Germany they have good image for the most part. They just need to find ways to keep the educated people in and motivate the unemployed to start working. Hopefully this new government is at least capable of creating more jobs.
Yes it’s the country that failed to integrate the immigrants. Not the immigrants that failed to assimilate to Finland. 🙄
Percentage is the wrong way of looking at something like immigration. The important thing is that the rate of immigration is manageable by the state, that people receive education, find housing, find employment and integrate into society. We don't want slums full of unemployed people who feel like they aren't part of society.
Education? Are you referring to immigrant children?
Percentage is irrelevant. Quality of the immigrants is what matters. Switzerland has by far the highest amount on the chart and they have pretty much none of the problems Sweden, Germany, France, Belgium or Netherlands have... But based on the quality of the ones coming to Finland in the last decades we must try to keep the percentage as low as possible or we too will soon have problems out of control...
Lower
Do we want the problems that Sweden has? Hmmm, no.
Higher GDP, lower murder rate, less suicides etc...
The first one can be attributed to immigration. If you think the rest have anything to do with immigration then you're a bit clueless.
Younger population, higher birth rate, lower projected payments into the pension system in the long run etc.
If considering it as a percentage, I think 15 to 20% maximum sounds ok. This coming from the thought that *Finland is what it is because we don’t have a lot of people here overall*. Many Finnish people like the peace and quiet, and we don’t wish that our culture will change too much. Our healthcare system is built upon that kind of **Finland**. Then again… perhaps the future demands that our system changes and we need a total of 10M population instead of 5M.
ah yes, Finns as minority in Finland? Finally I'm going to get those minority privileges 
Could be the case if shit hits the fan properly. I'm kind of accustomed to being finnish, then again i have lived here for 28 years.
Downvote me
Tbh that percentage is perferct because 6,9 but i think that there should not be anymore immigrants if you dont live in finland you dont know anything whats happening here its already pretty bad in helsinki
What's happening in Helsinki? I don't live in Finland
Ethnic criminal street gangs primarily made up of third world immigrants and their children born here in Finland.
Wow, I live in Helsinki and I was completely ignorant that there are gangs of Finnish children pillaging the streets! Where areas are they usually targeting?
Well I don't live in Helsinki so I would not know. But it's almost daily something in the news about this. Here's a starter https://yle.fi/a/74-20022340 (in English)
Oh snap, crazy stuff. That article doesn’t give details about the background of the members. Seems like a homegrown problem. Lack of opportunities for those people?
And here is an english article about the most know gang member Milan Jaff from Kurdish Mafia https://yle.fi/a/3-12469255
Why doesn't the government deport them?
I don't know, I'm not in the government so cannot speak on their behalf... But most likely because the majority of them are born here and have citizenship...
I see but does that only happen in Helsinki? Or are the other cities in Finland with the same situation? I'm asking that question because in countries like Germany that doesn't only happen in Berlin but in many other cities. Since you're from Finland you must know very well what's happened in Sweden with several of their cities. Also is it as bad as in Malmö/Paris what happens in Helsinki? Or isn't it that bad?
Yes I am very aware of the Swedish situation as I visit Sweden often (many times a year for few decades already) and follow their news weekly. Currently only Helsinki has problems and they are still somewhat under control. There were some similar gang problems starting in Turku recently but supposedly police got it under control. No not nearly as bad as in Malmö/Paris. But Helsinki is now in the first stage where Malmö/Paris once were. 10-20 years ago you would be laughed at when you suggested that if we aren't more careful with our immigration we are going to see these problems (and I would know as I was one of those who warned about this back then and either got laughed at or blamed to be "racist". Even lost some friends because I dared to suggest that there might possibly be some negative side-effects of letting in half the world...)
Good to know Finland hasn't got to that point. I'm 100% in favor of only letting in some immigrants and in most cases only highly skilled professionals who in most if not in all cases are very educated people who would never cause trouble. From my perspective I also think some of the reasons why most of these Western European countries are having the same issues is due to lack of patriotism, due to modern feminism which makes women believe they shouldn't have kids and if they do they only give birth to one or two kids and other radical leftist woke ideologies like for example the idea there shouldn't be any borders, the idea everybody can live in the same place, the idea people should have the right to live wherever they want and so on. I see Finland has a solid right-wing party in PS that opposes all those things, what can you tell me about them? Do they really mean to do the things they propose? Do you think they're the right party to save Finland from becoming another Sweden or France?
You have many good points in your analyze. Unfortunately the new government is quite fragile and one minister from PS had to resign after only 10 days due to right wing extremist ties and online comments he had made. PS is generally seen as a populist party whose main question is immigration (as in keeping it restrictive), and the scandal with the minister confirms this quite well. Leftist media hates them and tries to blackmail them as much as possible and unfortunately they attract a lot of idiots to the party so there is usually some of their MPs who have done something stupid. Personally I still voted for them, not because I like them very much, but because they are the only party which sees the risks with too liberal immigration policies. I think PS is the balancing power that the goverment need to save Finland, and PS seem to have only gotten their immigration related question into the goverment programme, which is good, as that is really the only question where they have good policies.
> Unfortunately the new government is quite fragile and one minister from PS had to resign after only 10 days due to right wing extremist ties and online comments he had made. What did he say exactly?
As a Swede, you should be happy to not have as many immigrants as We have
Percentage itself is meaningless. Like 99% of complaints about immigration consider asylum seekers or refugees, but they're something like a 20% of total immigration. As far as the far larger segment people coming for studies or work, I literally don't care at all whether the number is hundred thousand, million, or two million immigrants, so long as we have a job market for them. It's virtually guaranteed that in a few decades we'll be in a situation where we'd need more immigrants than we can find.
Just no. It's impossible no one hasn't noticed the problems elsewhere caused by "let's bring em all in".
Let’s bring ‘em all in ?
Prime example Sweden. Criminality on all levels completely off the charts. And it's very obvious the reason behind it.
Only X amount of immigrants can be integrated into society in a certain time. If we take more than that, we create isolated cells of people with their culture, language and even some form of rules within their community. I don't know what that figure is, but the current model doesn't even integrate all people we've taken in. Again, I'm no expert, so I cant put my finger on the number we should take, or the best ways to integrate immigrants to a society, but I think more thought should be put into the latter even if the new government wants to restrict the amount coming in. The attention of Basic Finns is limited to the immigration progress - when they're here, Basic Finns run all out of ideas.
Integration is a tough one, when I was attending the intense language courses, I was shocked how little my classmates knew about Finland - like not even the most basic stuff. Now of course there might be some other reasons for this happening but it certainly does appear at least on the surface that many are there only because TE made them go there.
Had the same experience. It's interesting how Finns think of "Integration" mostly in term of language skills and employment, but in truth what they are looking for is having people learn what could be described as "general western culture and practices". i.e, who can you approach, with what tone, what should you expect from other people, what media should you consume, references you need to know, what to dress like and what not to dress like. "don't bother my senses in public space and we are OK". I had Soldiers of Odin tell me that "no we are not talking about people like YOU" when I'm a Jewish immigrant with near 0 language skills who stole a good Finnish woman from them. If not me, then who?
[удалено]
It's not the same, but French and Finnish are definitely closer than Finnish and say, Somali or Iraqi. The later are facing much tougher time integrating as their culture and practices are miles away from Finnish ones, while olive-europeans usually understand the "do and don't" pretty quickly because they are observed to some degree in their country of origin - which can be said for most western countries. e.g, playing loud music in public spaces, knowing when a woman is not interested, punctuality, personal space. As much as you can mock the French for being loud or obtrusive, they do have similar concepts just weighed differently in importance.
It is necessary to remember that “immigration” in the case of EU law is about 3rd countries, and practically sneaked Estonian fellow who was integrated even before relocation due to similar culture and language is an immigrant too.
You're right. I didn't take up that people with less cultural, linguistic and religious differences integrate easier, but I guess that goes without saying.
Poland🔛🔝
I think the bigger consern isn't the amount but more where people immigrating will be placed and what sort of immigration is it. The problems in Sweden and Germany have been mostly been caused by population concentrations of certain groups, so not much integration can happen. People permanently living in Finland should be motivated to learn the language and the customs, and if there is another culture and language side by side with Finnish one, it makes integration much more difficult. The goal is to have them become Finns eventually, and that requires both work and support. Worst thing for everyone involved is another Malmö that just works as a "dumping ground" for unskilled immigration.
Malmös nickname is "Little Mogadishu" lol (Mogadishu = capital of Somalia)
Current one is optimal altought I would prefer it being a percentage lower. Yes current one is okay as long as it doesn't increase.
Lower
Looking at france right now I would say this or lowerbut definitely not higher. Helsinki area is already pretty bad in my opinion
Maybe it's only Helsinki and the other cities don't have so many immigrants?
Whats wrong with Helsinki ?
Sweden has twice our population, so as a proportion of the citizen population these rates are fairly similar. Sweden also has a very _high_ rate for its size, arguably more than they are capable of dealing with. Don't get me wrong, I'm not against immigration, but you have to have a realistic plan in place for integrating those who arrive. Cordoning off immigrant communities in slums isn't an acceptable solution. It's also worth noting that Finland's initial willingness to accept immigration was never as high as Sweden's. Our country has a _lot_ of our own version of 'hicks and rednecks'. For a long time they were bottled up by the Centre, and the agrarian predecessors of PS. Now the PS is dictating the direction of the Right in Finland. Recent immigration aggravated intolerance, but the intolerance was always there.
The percentage should be AS LOW as possible. This is based on evidence found around the world. Immigration as a whole is always a negative. I have nothing against any human, but if we look at the statistics, it's a really bad idea to allow many immigrants or migrants to move into Finland. Real multiculturalism is different cultures in different coutries, I'll always remember the time I traveled to Oslo Norway and expected to see Norvegian people but no, it was full of migrants and three minutes after going out of my hotel there was all these wannabe gangsters walking around with a boombox and one guy tried selling drugs to us. All the windows were spraypainted and it look'd like an American ghetto.
you do know that the most common surname among doctors in America is Patel? (Indian) what is your solution to the shrinking population problem?
Lol, Oslo is nothing like that.
one percent for every seat PS get in eduskunta
Higher, the demographics are shit and I don’t want to pay higher pension payments
Higher.
Are there no economists in this thread? or evolutionary biologists?
The topic of immigration is complex and multifaceted, and different perspectives exist on how it should be approached. The factors you mentioned, such as necessity, willingness to assimilate, and compatibility with the host society, are indeed important considerations in immigration policies. Many argue that a holistic assessment of individuals based on these factors can lead to better integration and social cohesion.The positive experiences with the Karen community in your local area are a testament to the potential benefits of immigration when certain conditions are met. When immigrants are willing to embrace the values, norms, and customs of the host society, and when they contribute positively to the local community, it can foster a sense of unity and mutual appreciation.
As a Canadian, I might have some insight. Canada is a country that has in recent years really really ramped up immigration and has a policy of multiculturalism. Here in Canada the government is pushing for more immigration because the relatively low birth rate of the established population. They are trying to increase the amount of working age population because it makes the economy stronger in their mind. Many Canadians aren’t interested in working for minimum wage in shitty jobs. People who are desperate to leave their home countries to seek more opportunities in Canada from a place like India or the Philippines are more willing work these jobs. I believe working these jobs may also help people get work permits here which is sort of the first step to immigrate. Generally most immigrants are good hard working people who contribute to Canada as a whole. But there can be issues with introducing huge amounts of people who come from very different cultural backgrounds to your country. In Canada there is a legal requirement that all cultures must be respected and we aren’t really supposed to assimilate people to Canadian culture. In my opinion if you are injecting a large amount of foreign culture into your culture your culture will change unless they are expected to conform strictly to your cultural identity. As an example some people from middle eastern countries may come with much more traditional views towards women. Chinese immigrants may have a culture which more strongly reflects the importance of status, prestige or reputation which to Canadians can come off as showy or elitist. I don’t like either of those since those are not the values I was brought up with as a Canadian. I think immigration is sort of a lazy way of improving your economy, I think if companies cannot hire local people to do the job they either need to pay more or automate that job. Relying on foreign workers who will work for less will in the long time hurt your economy. Immigration is totally fine I just think if a person is moving to another country they should be expected to integrate into the culture and values of that nation. Importing too many people too quickly will not allow for people to naturally integrate and will often form their own isolated social groups which is counter productive. Also come up with a national housing strategy because if there is more demand for accommodation then there is new housing being built if causes massive cost of living increases. Look at how every country that has a large push for immigration has been dropping on the human development index versus those who are more strict are improving or staying static. Ohh yeah it can also create more tensions and more polarization between left and right leaning groups which we really can’t afford to be dealing with right now.
there are generally 2 types of people - consumers and producers. A country would benefit attracting producers of all kinds - entrepreneurs (low end to high end), and a affluent profile of "consumers". Regardless of ethnicity, producers generally add value to the adopted country through providing goods and services whereas Consumers will spend money to buy goods and services from Finnish businesses. Increasing citizenship eligibility years doesnt help in anyway.