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I read the article and I'm still a bit confused, cause I know for a fact that prior to this new government that non-Eu students were supposed to pay tuition fees for unis at the bachelor and master's levels, but could use scholarships to help themselves out.
So basically, they're removing any form of assistance for foreign students?
The majority come through the student pipeline because it's far simpler: you just need money.
But it's also folly to think the next couple decades will be identical to the last. Australian housing costs will absolutely shift their trends moving forward. Things will and are changing, especially when you're changing the incentives.
Idk why this sub popped up in my feed but I live in Australia. Coming as a student is easy if you have money but getting PR/staying long term is NOT easy by any means lol
The call of more affordable and better quality housing beckons.
Net Australian migration was around 400k last year.
A considerable portion of that is students making the change from student to long-term, paying considerable amounts of money to engage migration agents to navigate the process.
Who do not pay tuition fees?
Students of a bachelor’s or master’s degree programme taught in Finnish or Swedish (language proficiency is required).
https://www.aalto.fi/en/admission-services/scholarships-and-tuition-fees
This is a disaster for a country that needs highly educated people at an alarming rate while not having even a natality rate to cover the generational substitution.
I think that’s not the aim of KOK policies.
They want to bring people ready to work and that don’t cost a dime to Finland. They don’t want foreigners to feel at home.
They want to bring people without giving anything to them in return. After they are done with working and ready to retirement, a kick in the butt, back to where they came from.
The problem is that if you’re a skilled worker then you can already go anywhere you want.
If Finland decides they only want certain people to come in, there aren’t suddenly going to be more of those people. The educated skilled workers who want to come to Finland are already coming to Finland.
I just find it funny that simply by not being born in Finland, and instead coming to Finland to study at any university and getting a job related to your studies, it’s actually way cheaper for Finland than educating someone up from birth, to pre-primary education all the way to university.
PS and KOK act like it’s the worst thing in the world, even though they’re actually getting skilled workers at a much cheaper cost than natives.
It seems that they’re so blinded by their biases that they don’t want to address discrimination in workplaces, preventing qualified individuals with Finnish degrees from finding jobs.
>PS and KOK act like it’s the worst thing in the world
Because they are racist and white supremacists. These beliefs were never logical or based on real-world facts, it was always about some fantasies. When you accept that KOK is just as racist as PS but just hides it better - everything suddenly starts to make perfect sense.
I really don't think people who want to come to Finland will automatically choose Finland regardless of what the government does.
I wouldn't have come to Finland if I couldn't get a free education, and now I'm poised to work here long term if the government doesn't fuck up majorly.
I mean the party ACTIVELY wanted to form a government with PS so what do you expect? The more liberal layer paint of the former PMs has worn off and they are sliding more to the right and leaning more conservative. There are a number of "PS in all but name" candidates in KOK already so while not all in the party want thar there certainly is an amount.
Its surprising to you that right leaning party can push their own goals through better with other right leaning parties than left leaning parties? SDP goes against pretty much everything that KOK wants to do.
It’s hardly a dichotomy. SDP hardly push back on any KOK austerity measures when they’re in government.
KOK have put their flag in the ground. They’re happy collaborating with fascists to get their nefarious economic agenda through
Yeah, it's more descriptive of the 'True Finns' to punish all immigrants even if it hurts Finland in the process. The Coalition Party feels it's a worthy sacrifice so that they can pass their economy proposals at double pace and change as many things in their favour as possible.
Finns Party be like: "Tärkeintä ei ole Suomen voitto vaan ~~Ruotsin~~ mamujen häviö."
[Finland does pay retirement to foreigners](https://www.tyoelake.fi/en/new-in-finland/earnings-related-pension-paid-abroad-from-finland/) even outside Finland. But of course caring for the elderly is expensive too, so you are not completely incorrect.
Do we?
Don’t we mostly need not so highly educated basic workers? But don’t have the money, or the desire, to pay them.
Meaning people to take care of the elderly, of the children, of the disabled, to work in restaurants, to clean etc.
No, those get lower salaries and pay less taxes. Plus you don’t build an innovative country with manual workers. The return is much better with highly educated people.
But Finns are extremely high educated people..I mean, of course there is this fantasy of foreigners coming here, being self employed and creating these unbelievable success stories, and for some reason still staying here and paying, and their company paying, taxes here. Thus saving the country. Just don’t think that it’s very realistic. Most foreigners aren’t wonder kids either, as are not native Finns. Most Aalto University etc students just end up doing regular boring jobs, in very ordinary companies. Thats the future and life of 99,9% of working people, whether educated or not, whether from abroad or native Finns. The hype just ins’t real. Does this country really need hundreds of AI innovatirs? Of those hundreds maybe one becoming succesful and creating something meaningful, and usually when that happens or is about to happen they have already left this shithoole country far away from everything and with extremely terrible climate and boring introverted people.
Non EU citizens already pay tuition. Also, this country has very high taxes for everything, and weather conditions are extreme. Professionals really invest by coming here.
Again foreigners have to pay 14-15k/year in most programmes, when doing a masters the cost is over 50k for two years. If students have a debt then they are likely to leave considering the salaries in Finland are't enough.
\> The Ministry of Education and Culture has established a working group that is preparing for the full cost recovery of tuition fees from students from non-EU and non-EEA countries, in accordance with the government programme. This means that in the future, fee-paying foreign students will be expected to cover the entire cost of their education.
Isn't this what it is right now? non-EU students have to pay their tuition fee since at least several years already.
it's true that non-eu student have been liable to pay tuition fee since 2018, but a lot of university - well it's really the amks - that have very low tuition which does not correspond to the cost the university has to bear to facilitate the education for that student so they have been using public funds to meet the difference which is what it's talking about, so no more public funds and you gotta make the difference off of the student aka raise tuition to 8-10k euro/year
Makes sense, but isn't the tuition fee of some AMKs I know (metropolia, laurea for example, but I'd imagine there shouldn't be any big difference across the board) hovering about 8-10k already? Or you mean raise an addition 8-10k each year on top of the current tuition
Canadian in Finland. I've often viewed most western post secondary education as being run like a business first and foremost rather than a place of higher learning. Over the top book expenses, tuitions constantly on the rise, debt-laden graduates, and a predatory fixation on international students that get charged significantly more. Finland and a few other select countries are an exception to this.
While I can completely grasp that Finnish tax payers shouldn't be subsidizing or on the hook for foreign students who likely dine and dash with their education here, changing course should be a cautionary tale and researched extensively as it has the potential to swing the doors open to that business model I described earlier or even specifically targeting International students as a cash cow which creates different tiers of students.
Not entirely against the idea, but be careful!
You don't understand the main idea, that taxpayers get a return on investment as long as students work in Finland (which I think a sufficient number do). The rest is misconceptions and undercover racism.
In the article it said about half of students are planning to move from Finland after graduation. Yes its not the same as who is actually leaving but gives a good ballpark on the issue.
Recent-ish data: https://www.oph.fi/sites/default/files/documents/Ulkomaalaisten%20opiskelijoiden%20ty%C3%B6llistyminen%20Suomeen%20valmistumisen%20j%C3%A4lkeen%202019.pdf
About 1/3 of university graduates (42% for UAS) are still in Finland 5 years later.
It apparently used to be higher in the past: https://www.stat.fi/tietotrendit/artikkelit/2020/kuinka-moni-suomessa-tutkinnon-suorittanut-ulkomaalaistaustainen-jaa-tanne-toihin/
According to this, about 65% of foreign students were still in Finland 3 years after graduation.
Not every person who leaves stays away forever. I personally know several people who left Finland after graduation, gained amazing international experience and came back to apply that within Finland whilst still having decades of tax paying ahead of them.
So if Finland doesn't pay everyone's bills then that is racism? What kind of logic is that? Governments should focus on providing services to people who pay for them which in this case are the taxpayers, not go around making 50/50 gambles on if the student that paid no dime ends up staying and working in Finland afterwards.
Investing and gambling are not that different. Only a fraction of foreign students need to stay since it also only costs a fraction to educate them compared to natives.
What is the fraction that needs to remain for this to be profitable?
Remember that every slot taken by dine and dash foreigner student, is a slot away from a Finn who is far more likely to stay in Finland.
> What is the fraction that needs to remain for this to be profitable?
It's hard to say without making a lot of assumptions because we, or at least I don't have access to all the numbers. But if we assume that foreigners study for an average of 3.5 years to get a master's degree (the actual assumption being that half come for a 5 year programme and another half for a 2 year programme), and knowing that natives need to be educated for at least 18 years to reach a master's degree, then we could say that only a fifth of foreign students need to stay for it to be profitable. That's ignoring lots of other factors though that only professionals would know how to take into account, but I'm not aware of any published official calculations.
> Remember that every slot taken by dine and dash foreigner student, is a slot away from a Finn who is far more likely to stay in Finland.
That's a good point. In fields like nursing, universities are supposedly [struggling to attract applicants](https://yle.fi/a/3-12265281), so taking away spots from natives is not an issue. I don't know what the situation is like in other fields.
If the survey says that half of foreign students plan to leave Finland after studying, it's pretty obvious that this happens.
The international study programs in Finnish universities don't seem to integrate foreign students to Finland anyway.
Covid-19 probably did quite many student the dirty. Don't know how much we will still reap from that crap over the years..
Why don't they address the main problem that the international programs suck at integrating foreign students?
If we are honest, the quality of most international programs here are mediocre and not well recognized. When people leave for another country, they typically pursue a new degree in such country. Try holding an UAS degree here and find job in Germany, US, UK, etc. The only choice is usually Finnish domestic job market, but that's not easy easier because no connection, not enough language skills, etc.
Welp, good luck getting foreign students here, if it's going to cost them as much as going to some more prestigious universities. I already hear a lot of people say they came to Finland as their 2nd or their 3rd option, so I'm not super confident we have other qualities that will attract foreign students.
Finland needs educated taxpayers. The natality rate is so low that the system will just stop working. Kicking them out is a move that is as daft as it gets.
Yeah, educating them and then kicking them out is definitely stupid, but so is just offering free/subsidized education and just hoping that people will stay.
Best Quick solution would be to charge full rate for degree and then allow it to be deducted (in full) from taxes over an extended period.
A good amount of those who study here stay. Not the majority, but they also cost a fraction of what it costs to educate a Finn.
Foreign students are a resource that isn't being fully taken advantage of by the state, and instead of investing more in retaining this resource, the current government wants to throw it away. I suppose that's in-line with the kind of right wing politics KOK and PS like to wage.
Source: the gospel of the Church of my Balls
I am one of them. I got employed by the University after one semester of my masters. 10 years working non-stop since.
Hum, if Finland was their 2nd or 3rd choice, why did they end up here ? I suspect because they didn't get their 1st or 2nd, but there must be some other advantage vs the many other places they could have to?
Oh, I meant it more as an anecdote of how we are already not the top choice for a lot of people. Competition for students between universities is ruthless, and we are going to lose at this rate, I'm afraid.
Choice and competition goes both way. If the students are only looking for a cheap(er) place, I am not sure what Finland wins, big countries have soft power incentives, Finland not much. I'd favor a system which reward students who decide to make Finland their home, even if not forever, vs dine and dash. If most students are of the first type than it wouldn't change much things.
That's a fair point, but I'm not sure if raising tuition is necessarily bringing us more committed students. Our location is geographically challenging, language is extremely difficult and cost of living high. There are a lot of things that will not tip the scale in our favor. Especially if you need to finance your studies on your own, it's extremely difficult without a viable scholarship scheme.
I'm a non-eu who came to Finland. I got my scholarship (due to my high performance) for my studies at a very top university but chose to remain here, since I wanted to give back to the Finnish society for helping me set up myself. But if I were asked to pay from the get go, I'd have gone to Germany or Italy. And yeah, raising tuition fee, will bring different tiers of students who have money with no grit and less capabilities. I've witnessed this first hand as my supervisor professor took in only non-eu scholarship students for masters thesis work due to this aspect.
That's the issue, that it's already not the best that try to move to Finland to study. Yes, maybe University of Helsinki and such has actual top talent, but smaller unis and AMKs get those kids who can't get into more prestigious places on a scholarship. In the case of EU-students, it's a lot of spoiled Western European kids whose families can afford to pay their high living costs in Finland but couldn't afford tuition in more prestigious places in Western Europe, and with non-EU it's the people who will do anything to settle down in Europe, and who can make it to Finland but often have barely enough funds to eat properly. I know a lot of students like these, and while some just cannot physically adapt to Finland, many would love to stay. The problem is that few of them can get jobs without Finnish skills.
So well, if non-EU students have to pay more, international programs will be even more full of the mediocre EU brats and it will be out of reach for people from outside the EU who might not be top talent, but are at least determined and willing to work. Finnish higher education (again, maybe with the exception of UnIHel) is just not good enough to attract fee-paying students from China and India and the like, whom higher quality universities elsewhere can count on. In this form, introducing higher tuitions will just further erode quality.
Because Finnish was cheap and we were told that we'll integrate just fine without Finnish. If Finland is as expensive as Canada or Australia then most people wouldn't want to be here. Just ask any foreign student community, you'll get the same answer.
I came here 15 years ago when things were even cheaper, but I somewhat regret that I didn't go with more expensive options.
As much as others have said that countless times on here I truly feel like people aren’t grasping that very important concept…that all of this only pertains to people who want to be taught in English. If you learn Finnish, as one should strive for, there are free programs.
If you spend time and money learning Finnish it’s much cheaper than having to pay full tuition to be taught in English.
No one is gonna learn enough Finnish for higher education before even moving to Finland. If your plan is to only attract people who are already madly in love with Finnish culture, you're not gonna get a whole lot of candidates.
You kinda need the language if you want to stay tho, it definitely is important to your integration. And the entire point of free education is that it's an investment in future educated workers that part part of the society
Do you know how long it will take to become fluent enough to study in Uni? at least 5 years of constant interacting with Finnish language; speaking, hearing and reading.
Well if you're planning to stay here after degree, it'll pay back with higher salary and better job prospects. If you're just going to shop for free degree and move abroad, then it's probably justified you have to pay for your degree.
People who have a deep interest in Finland, Finnish and being successful there.
Arguably, it’s about respect as well. Nothing worse than someone who wants to live in a country and not learn it’s language.
People who have perfect English can only get so far there and anybody on this sub can tell you that. It doesn’t make sense to me to live in Finland and not learn Finnish.
But, to answer you, who’s got the time? We all do. It’s about making time. A simple 1h a day a few times a week can kickstart someone off. It’s about wanting to learn.
I just thought about this. Recently, like from the 90s onwards(?) there has been significant amounts of foreigners coming to Finland to get a bachelors degree, or a masters degree, or something equating to those.
I have no problem with this. On the contrary, I always was excited to see foreign students, and am wholeheartedly *for* internationalization (if thats a word) of Finland.
BUT
When thinking about this from a governments perspective -a government that is taking more and more loan- .. What are the results of this policy that encouraged foreigners to come study here? What has happened as a result of that?
As far as I know: some people have gotten married in Finland, and some have found employment. But more to the point, most of these foreign students, after getting their degree with heavy compensation from the Finnish government, simply left for work abroad and never paid a dime of taxes to Finland. If you look at the subject from this perspective, i think wanting foreign students to cover the costs of their degrees is just common sense.
Edit: wording
I see your point, but we need to think about what Finland wants in the long term. If Finland wants more skilled foreigners to come and work here, this is not a solution. Instead of increasing tuition fees which are already high for many non-EU students, we should invest in integration and employment opportunities, so that their tax will pay off their education and beyond.
You can find here numbers on contribution and services consumed by Finnish households: https://yle.fi/a/3-10550342
You'll find that the bulk of services consumed do not apply to foreign graduates. Foreign graduates who are employed are immediately net payers.
Do you have your numbers right? It may be "profitable" to Finland to have new workforce even if half of the educated people leave Finland after studies. Even Finnish natives leave Finland after studies and we don't expect them to pay back taxes or so. We ought to make Finland a place someone would *want* to stay. I think we have the potential, but the execution has to be honed, though.
They better be making sure the education is up to par with the cost then. Right now some new programs in my city's uni are like a test to see what works and the students are the guinea-pigs. It's not fair to ask someone to pay thousands when the education they receive is subpar at best and they could have learned more about it from the Internet by themselves 😑
I was planning on applying to Universities in Finland. Can someone please let me know if the scholarships would still be there? Also now they'll have application fees, why are they doing this
Finland is creating a very messy situation. I studied at TUT/ now TUNI with 100% scholarship and working full time in a reputed Finnish company. However, we all know and agree without any questions that Finland lacks a huge amount of specialists in every possible sector. Such regulations will never improve Finlands reputation and capabilities within leading nations
Any proof or evidence to back up your claim that "Finland lacks a huge amount of specialists", because obviously if it really needs specialists, foreigners in tech sector could have thrived, but in reality, it does not.
At the same time, all Finnish universities are scrambling to recruit as many foreign students as possible, because their funding from the Ministry of Education and Culture depends heavily on the number of students they can graduate. Since the number of Finnish students in higher education is going to sink dramatically in the next few decades (because the birthrate has steadily fallen for a long time now), the universities have to recruit from abroad to keep their funding.
Aren't they already? Most students there I know are paying over 12-15k Euros/year for masters except the ones with blue cards which are very few. It has been this way for a few years now, Finland has too many universities and not enough English speaking jobs...2 years is not enough to learn business level finnish either on top of regular education.
As a foreigner that wants to live in Finland in the near future I agree with this. If you have not been raised in Finland (thus having parents that paid taxes for your scholarships and stuff like that) it simply makes no sense that someone from the outside can come and take advantage of Finns public money. Its simply wrong. IMO, if you’re willing to study in a foreign country you should be ready to spend some money from your pocket or get some kind of help from your home country.
Foreign students do have to pay tuition. The problem is that Finnish universities have been enjoying the "greatest education system" fable inherited from the 2000s by schoolers to attract good students.
None of Finnish universities are in world top 100 anymore. They look like business schools more than academic institutions. Thus you got less quality students, who may or may not stay, instead of good students who may or may not stay.
But foreign students pay 12-15k/year. I cannot believe people are this misinformed. Very few people get scholarships. Also you expect people to pay lets say for a masters degree their current expenses are around 50-60k for two years, when they find a job it doesn't pay them that well considering they are new to the finnish market, talented folks already look towards others in that case just to pay off debt. Cannot imagine if fees increased. Its not like USA where folks get 100k+ salaries after graduation.
According to this logic Finnish employers (or the state lol) should pay very well those employees that completed their education elsewhere... It's a globalized world, people are moving. If you do it well, talent comes to you and stays. But you can't just expect foreigners to never use Finnish tax payers money but then also want highly educated workforce to come to Finland.
with all Finnish universities kicked out of top 100, this is what they come up with. I guess no trying thus no failure.
As someone who worked long in the academia, this is detrimental to research. Finnish students are not keen to do PhD, ones that do only stick to Finnish group leaders.
Almost all foreign group leaders rely on foreign students as PhD candidates. It is a huge disadvantage if you dont get to know them (courses, summerjobs) before offering them PhD position.
I'm kind of on the fence with this. My now wife moved to Finland study from a non EU/EEA country. Back then there were no tuitions. Had there been tuitions, she would not have had been able to come here to study. Initially she could not find a job after her graduation and had to do work in the fast food and cleaning industry. This is when many foreigners end up going to another country (sorry, I don't have statistics on my hand to prove my claim). Fast forward, she has now been working in the IT-sector for the last few years. And since we are planning to have kids... I guess she really ended up being exactly the kind of an immigrant "we want".
I don't know how many are like her. From point of view of resources, it is problematic when/if someone studies in Finland tuition free and then end up moving to another country.
I'm one of those people languishing in manual labor jobs after my graduation (management, average grade). I think it's complicated because it's true that it's probably a net loss for public funds that the students study and leave and pay no further tax, but the tuition fees go to fund the Finnish university and the related staff. The students also have to pay a lot of money here to cover living cost while studying or work to finance their own living expense (like me). Whether it's good or bad, I don't think I know enough to tell. What I know is that the reluctance to hire foreign students for high paying jobs will always be there except for demanding sectors like IT or nursing. I studied for free so I can't say I want people to pay. But having a serious tuition fees may attract non-EU students to fields with actual high labor demand.
Exactly the same story as my wife, she worked in cleaning during her studies, then got work at the university as a funded PhD student. We ended up moving out of Finland, but may very well move back soon.
I am not against implementing these changes. Yes, for some it will make things hard or impossible even though they have a good attitude. However, there are waaaay too many people who come for the good university education and then just move back once they have their degree. At least the state should benefit while they are studying here.
Haha. Already the number of international students are dropping tremendously and the fools in KOK and PS want to raise the fees more. Students would easily go to US, Canada, Australia, New Zealand etc… and Finland will be left with oldies in the upcoming decades. I suppose PS doesn’t mind that coz it’s the right ethnic breed and therefore “reasonable “!
Stop alarming all the time.
This is basically for one reason: there are many students going to Finland to study, after they finish, they go back to their countries and never come back.
Finland is forming student around the world 🤣 they want ppl to stay after finishing their studies
these people aren't tax payers generally, they are non-eu students that come here purely to study, even if they worked the maximum allowed under a student visa, it wouldn't cover a fraction of the cost.
Would you support this idea? Non-eu citizens have to pay tuition but if they stay and work in finland for 10 years after they finish their education they will receive a full refund.
10 years is way too much. I'd rather see an immediate tax deduction when you start working. The Netherlands does this and you don't even need to have graduated there.
10 years would be an excellent way to encourage these people to actually stay in finland instead of just doing their schooling and fucking off. If you've already been there a decade, why leave now?
Rather unfortunate and a step back in what should slowly become the norm in most of the world. The current government is pretty anti-internationalist, which is sad to see in a time when internationalism is needed more than ever before.
It doesn't. Very few students actually want to pay to study here and the profits are marginal to overall budget. You know what would help? If kokoomus didn't cut universities base funding every single year.
> if you can get into Oxford, you'd go to Oxford
Of course. But Oxford competes with Harvard - Yale etc. Not around top 100ish schools.
But you should compare similar universities and countries. Would you go to Karolinska or Helsinki? If you had to pick one? Aalto or KTH?
It depends the subject I guess. On pure ranking Karolinska, and with language ROI, also KTH. But I don't like the idea that Helsinki and Aalto are chosen because they are cheap, that's what we should be working on.
Here's some numbers on the situation of foreign students in Finland after graduation: https://www.oph.fi/sites/default/files/documents/Ulkomaalaisten%20opiskelijoiden%20ty%C3%B6llistyminen%20Suomeen%20valmistumisen%20j%C3%A4lkeen%202019.pdf
And some numbers on who finances society in Finland: https://yle.fi/a/3-10550342
The bulk of services received among young people are social income transfers, which foreigners are not eligible for, and training, which foreigners only receive for a few years compared to Finns who need to be educated for nearly two decades.
Foreign students are almost certainly a net positive.
Its not (a net positive)
Finland is a good country with a more-than-okay education system, and we have been handing out degrees to foreigners who arent in any way interested in staying. If you find any numbers about this, this is what it will show, i predict.
Yes, do you know that for the system to be sustainable there needs to be a critical mass of people working at all times right?
With the natality rate of Finland, it won’t work. But don’t take my word for it.
https://www.helsinkitimes.fi/finland/finland-news/domestic/22915-etla-finland-should-almost-triple-net-migration-gains-to-44-000.html
I dont see the issue, when about half of international students already leave after they habe graduated. Why educate people for free that wont stay here and contribute?
Do you have a source to back up that claim. Id happily change my mind if shown studies and stats that say giving the education for free to foreign is worth it for the country and economy.
Compulsory and higher education cost roughly the same on a yearly basis, so the cost to educate a Finn up to the level of a master's degree you need to pay for at least 18 years of education whereas it's only 5 for a foreigner. Since half of the foreigners leave, you could say that you need to pay for 10 years instead. Even then it's already worth it, if we assume that educating a Finn is profitable.
Now this doesn't take into consideration what fields foreigners tend to go into, how long they actually stay in Finland, how many foreigners are only completing a master's vs bachelor's+master's, how much money they generate for the Finnish state through VAT and other indirect taxes or the fact that foreigners are not eligible for student financial aid and other forms of social security that Finns are, but it gives you a rough idea.
I'm not aware of any official or at least professional calculations made on this subject taking into account all the factors.
No, you get maybe half of them. Nothing also says they will be fluent in finnish. Studies show that half consider stay after graduation. I havent seen stats about how many actually end up staying.
The fact thta half consider it, dosent mean that they do
Policies to Promote internationalisation in Finnish higher education and research 2017–2025 - Valtioneuvosto https://julkaisut.valtioneuvosto.fi/bitstream/handle/10024/79438/Better%20Together%20for%20Better%20World%20-%20Leaflet%202018.pdf?sequence=17&isAllowed=y
The concept has sadly failed, most students leave finland (I think there may be an actual tilastokeskus statistic for this) after graduation so we currently only receive all the costs with little benefit. The problem is that its very hard for people who aren't speaking finnish to find jobs in most economic sectors, especially when some of the employers also expect you to understand swedish as well.
Could be easily solved by giving English language an official recognition as lingua franca for working in Finland.
I think the requirement of employement after 3 months or expelling from country was the crippling strike on all future international projects. This is just icing on the cake to blow finland back to 70's.
Sad.
Wtf this was not the case already? (coming from Australia)
Not that I support it it's just a surprise.
In Australia education is an export industry.
If Finland, for example, subsidies education export to attract skilled migrants, that makes sense. If Finland simply effectively give money to foreigner to study there for no reason yeh that does not make sense.
Was that not the norm before? I was under the impression that If a foreign student wants to study in English then it's the full amount for the tuition fee, but if they are proficient in Finnish, then the costs are negligible. Am I mistaken about this?
Regardless of lanaguge if you are non EU and not a permanent resident, you still pay full tuition. Only exception is Blue card visa which means you came to Finland under a STEM related work permit and earn over 55k or something it depends on the specific EU country. Certain degrees are the exception though but not in most universities no.
Why its ”Petteri Orpo’s right wing government”? How many times Yle wrote ”Sanna Marin’s left wing government”? Especially when it was about negative news to some people🤔
If they want foreign students to cover full tuition costs then they should not discriminate EU people with non-EU people then. In fact they should even stop opening admissions to any applicants residing outside of Finland altogether. That does sound like a great plan. Make Finland great again
Spoken like a true Finn ready to pay 100 so that the neighbor doesn't get 50. Finland has decided to be in the EU, one aspect of it is that EU citizens have more or less the same rights as locals within the EU, Countries and Meta-countries are inherently discriminating between internals and externals.
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I read the article and I'm still a bit confused, cause I know for a fact that prior to this new government that non-Eu students were supposed to pay tuition fees for unis at the bachelor and master's levels, but could use scholarships to help themselves out. So basically, they're removing any form of assistance for foreign students?
They plan to raise tuition fees to a level that covers all the costs of your studies. The fees that are in place now don't cover all of them.
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Lol. No. This will simply put education down the same path as [Australia.](https://youtu.be/Sm6lWJc8KmE?si=CoJJJrdSQWwbOhJb)
The difference being that Australia is infinitely more attractive to immigrants than Finland.
Only because the pipelines have been hooked up with foreign enrollment agents and have been in place for decades.
But Australia is also attractive to working immigrants despite having much more difficult procedures compared to Finland.
The majority come through the student pipeline because it's far simpler: you just need money. But it's also folly to think the next couple decades will be identical to the last. Australian housing costs will absolutely shift their trends moving forward. Things will and are changing, especially when you're changing the incentives.
Idk why this sub popped up in my feed but I live in Australia. Coming as a student is easy if you have money but getting PR/staying long term is NOT easy by any means lol
The call of more affordable and better quality housing beckons. Net Australian migration was around 400k last year. A considerable portion of that is students making the change from student to long-term, paying considerable amounts of money to engage migration agents to navigate the process.
Who do not pay tuition fees? Students of a bachelor’s or master’s degree programme taught in Finnish or Swedish (language proficiency is required). https://www.aalto.fi/en/admission-services/scholarships-and-tuition-fees
This is a disaster for a country that needs highly educated people at an alarming rate while not having even a natality rate to cover the generational substitution.
I think that’s not the aim of KOK policies. They want to bring people ready to work and that don’t cost a dime to Finland. They don’t want foreigners to feel at home. They want to bring people without giving anything to them in return. After they are done with working and ready to retirement, a kick in the butt, back to where they came from.
Every other country wants skilled immigrants. I'm sure offering them absolutely nothing is bound to attract the best and brightest.
The problem is that if you’re a skilled worker then you can already go anywhere you want. If Finland decides they only want certain people to come in, there aren’t suddenly going to be more of those people. The educated skilled workers who want to come to Finland are already coming to Finland.
I just find it funny that simply by not being born in Finland, and instead coming to Finland to study at any university and getting a job related to your studies, it’s actually way cheaper for Finland than educating someone up from birth, to pre-primary education all the way to university. PS and KOK act like it’s the worst thing in the world, even though they’re actually getting skilled workers at a much cheaper cost than natives. It seems that they’re so blinded by their biases that they don’t want to address discrimination in workplaces, preventing qualified individuals with Finnish degrees from finding jobs.
The idea is that people go to Finland, get an education, and leave. But I agree with you. A decent percentage of these students stays in Finland.
Yes, that’s the problem, because we can’t force them to stay in a country that is hostile towards them. It just perpetuates prejudice against them.
>PS and KOK act like it’s the worst thing in the world Because they are racist and white supremacists. These beliefs were never logical or based on real-world facts, it was always about some fantasies. When you accept that KOK is just as racist as PS but just hides it better - everything suddenly starts to make perfect sense.
I really don't think people who want to come to Finland will automatically choose Finland regardless of what the government does. I wouldn't have come to Finland if I couldn't get a free education, and now I'm poised to work here long term if the government doesn't fuck up majorly.
You basically described PS rather than KOK goals, but of course KOK has their share of responsibility as they had to do this lehmänkauppa with PS.
KOK is driving this car down the mountain.
I doubt KOK would have wanted big immigration restrictions, but PS demanded them in order to form the government.
I mean the party ACTIVELY wanted to form a government with PS so what do you expect? The more liberal layer paint of the former PMs has worn off and they are sliding more to the right and leaning more conservative. There are a number of "PS in all but name" candidates in KOK already so while not all in the party want thar there certainly is an amount.
And KOK showed they’re far happier to govern with racist policies than the very mild social democracy of SDP. Their hands are dirty in all of this
Its surprising to you that right leaning party can push their own goals through better with other right leaning parties than left leaning parties? SDP goes against pretty much everything that KOK wants to do.
It’s hardly a dichotomy. SDP hardly push back on any KOK austerity measures when they’re in government. KOK have put their flag in the ground. They’re happy collaborating with fascists to get their nefarious economic agenda through
PS couldn’t do shit without KOK’s full support, they are both equally to blame
PS, KOK, Potato, peruna. same shit, different label and hair splitting.
Yeah, it's more descriptive of the 'True Finns' to punish all immigrants even if it hurts Finland in the process. The Coalition Party feels it's a worthy sacrifice so that they can pass their economy proposals at double pace and change as many things in their favour as possible. Finns Party be like: "Tärkeintä ei ole Suomen voitto vaan ~~Ruotsin~~ mamujen häviö."
[Finland does pay retirement to foreigners](https://www.tyoelake.fi/en/new-in-finland/earnings-related-pension-paid-abroad-from-finland/) even outside Finland. But of course caring for the elderly is expensive too, so you are not completely incorrect.
Do we? Don’t we mostly need not so highly educated basic workers? But don’t have the money, or the desire, to pay them. Meaning people to take care of the elderly, of the children, of the disabled, to work in restaurants, to clean etc.
No, those get lower salaries and pay less taxes. Plus you don’t build an innovative country with manual workers. The return is much better with highly educated people.
But Finns are extremely high educated people..I mean, of course there is this fantasy of foreigners coming here, being self employed and creating these unbelievable success stories, and for some reason still staying here and paying, and their company paying, taxes here. Thus saving the country. Just don’t think that it’s very realistic. Most foreigners aren’t wonder kids either, as are not native Finns. Most Aalto University etc students just end up doing regular boring jobs, in very ordinary companies. Thats the future and life of 99,9% of working people, whether educated or not, whether from abroad or native Finns. The hype just ins’t real. Does this country really need hundreds of AI innovatirs? Of those hundreds maybe one becoming succesful and creating something meaningful, and usually when that happens or is about to happen they have already left this shithoole country far away from everything and with extremely terrible climate and boring introverted people.
But they have no kids.
Do you think its fair to let non eu citizens to use our free education which is paid from taxes collected from people who live and work in finland?
Non EU citizens already pay tuition. Also, this country has very high taxes for everything, and weather conditions are extreme. Professionals really invest by coming here.
Again foreigners have to pay 14-15k/year in most programmes, when doing a masters the cost is over 50k for two years. If students have a debt then they are likely to leave considering the salaries in Finland are't enough.
\> The Ministry of Education and Culture has established a working group that is preparing for the full cost recovery of tuition fees from students from non-EU and non-EEA countries, in accordance with the government programme. This means that in the future, fee-paying foreign students will be expected to cover the entire cost of their education. Isn't this what it is right now? non-EU students have to pay their tuition fee since at least several years already.
it's true that non-eu student have been liable to pay tuition fee since 2018, but a lot of university - well it's really the amks - that have very low tuition which does not correspond to the cost the university has to bear to facilitate the education for that student so they have been using public funds to meet the difference which is what it's talking about, so no more public funds and you gotta make the difference off of the student aka raise tuition to 8-10k euro/year
Makes sense, but isn't the tuition fee of some AMKs I know (metropolia, laurea for example, but I'd imagine there shouldn't be any big difference across the board) hovering about 8-10k already? Or you mean raise an addition 8-10k each year on top of the current tuition
The current tuition fees only cover a fraction of the costs.
Rumor is that the current tuition fees cover the cost of collecting tuition fees. May or may not be true.
How much can it possibly cost to send an invoice?
Not sure for the university but last year Elisa wanted 4,90 € for sending a 5 € bill to me.
So they have 9 995 € per semester per student... (approximately.)
No, they don’t pay if they study in Finnish/Swedish.
Canadian in Finland. I've often viewed most western post secondary education as being run like a business first and foremost rather than a place of higher learning. Over the top book expenses, tuitions constantly on the rise, debt-laden graduates, and a predatory fixation on international students that get charged significantly more. Finland and a few other select countries are an exception to this. While I can completely grasp that Finnish tax payers shouldn't be subsidizing or on the hook for foreign students who likely dine and dash with their education here, changing course should be a cautionary tale and researched extensively as it has the potential to swing the doors open to that business model I described earlier or even specifically targeting International students as a cash cow which creates different tiers of students. Not entirely against the idea, but be careful!
You don't understand the main idea, that taxpayers get a return on investment as long as students work in Finland (which I think a sufficient number do). The rest is misconceptions and undercover racism.
You're right, but I am curious on the statistics, especially in terms of how many people stay in Finland post-grad.
In the article it said about half of students are planning to move from Finland after graduation. Yes its not the same as who is actually leaving but gives a good ballpark on the issue.
Recent-ish data: https://www.oph.fi/sites/default/files/documents/Ulkomaalaisten%20opiskelijoiden%20ty%C3%B6llistyminen%20Suomeen%20valmistumisen%20j%C3%A4lkeen%202019.pdf About 1/3 of university graduates (42% for UAS) are still in Finland 5 years later. It apparently used to be higher in the past: https://www.stat.fi/tietotrendit/artikkelit/2020/kuinka-moni-suomessa-tutkinnon-suorittanut-ulkomaalaistaustainen-jaa-tanne-toihin/ According to this, about 65% of foreign students were still in Finland 3 years after graduation.
https://www.helsinkitimes.fi/finland/finland-news/domestic/22915-etla-finland-should-almost-triple-net-migration-gains-to-44-000.html
Not every person who leaves stays away forever. I personally know several people who left Finland after graduation, gained amazing international experience and came back to apply that within Finland whilst still having decades of tax paying ahead of them.
So if Finland doesn't pay everyone's bills then that is racism? What kind of logic is that? Governments should focus on providing services to people who pay for them which in this case are the taxpayers, not go around making 50/50 gambles on if the student that paid no dime ends up staying and working in Finland afterwards.
Investing and gambling are not that different. Only a fraction of foreign students need to stay since it also only costs a fraction to educate them compared to natives.
What is the fraction that needs to remain for this to be profitable? Remember that every slot taken by dine and dash foreigner student, is a slot away from a Finn who is far more likely to stay in Finland.
> What is the fraction that needs to remain for this to be profitable? It's hard to say without making a lot of assumptions because we, or at least I don't have access to all the numbers. But if we assume that foreigners study for an average of 3.5 years to get a master's degree (the actual assumption being that half come for a 5 year programme and another half for a 2 year programme), and knowing that natives need to be educated for at least 18 years to reach a master's degree, then we could say that only a fifth of foreign students need to stay for it to be profitable. That's ignoring lots of other factors though that only professionals would know how to take into account, but I'm not aware of any published official calculations. > Remember that every slot taken by dine and dash foreigner student, is a slot away from a Finn who is far more likely to stay in Finland. That's a good point. In fields like nursing, universities are supposedly [struggling to attract applicants](https://yle.fi/a/3-12265281), so taking away spots from natives is not an issue. I don't know what the situation is like in other fields.
That's an enterprise you are describing, not a state or government.
If the survey says that half of foreign students plan to leave Finland after studying, it's pretty obvious that this happens. The international study programs in Finnish universities don't seem to integrate foreign students to Finland anyway. Covid-19 probably did quite many student the dirty. Don't know how much we will still reap from that crap over the years..
Why don't they address the main problem that the international programs suck at integrating foreign students? If we are honest, the quality of most international programs here are mediocre and not well recognized. When people leave for another country, they typically pursue a new degree in such country. Try holding an UAS degree here and find job in Germany, US, UK, etc. The only choice is usually Finnish domestic job market, but that's not easy easier because no connection, not enough language skills, etc.
Welp, good luck getting foreign students here, if it's going to cost them as much as going to some more prestigious universities. I already hear a lot of people say they came to Finland as their 2nd or their 3rd option, so I'm not super confident we have other qualities that will attract foreign students.
Those people also have no plan to become Finnish taxpayers, so no reason for the Finnish taxpayer to support their education.
A fraction of them do though, and they're basically cash cows for the Finnish state when they start working.
And pretends Finns who do the exact same thing don't exist because "they're us".
Finland needs educated taxpayers. The natality rate is so low that the system will just stop working. Kicking them out is a move that is as daft as it gets.
Yeah, educating them and then kicking them out is definitely stupid, but so is just offering free/subsidized education and just hoping that people will stay. Best Quick solution would be to charge full rate for degree and then allow it to be deducted (in full) from taxes over an extended period.
A good amount of those who study here stay. Not the majority, but they also cost a fraction of what it costs to educate a Finn. Foreign students are a resource that isn't being fully taken advantage of by the state, and instead of investing more in retaining this resource, the current government wants to throw it away. I suppose that's in-line with the kind of right wing politics KOK and PS like to wage.
The problem with that is that nobody would choose Finland when they could be choosing literally better universities for same or less money.
many pp want to stay after study and work but they left because they couldn't find any jobs
Well, they're definitely not becoming Finnish taxpayers after graduation, if they don't even come here in the first place.
Source: the gospel of the Church of my Balls I am one of them. I got employed by the University after one semester of my masters. 10 years working non-stop since.
Hum, if Finland was their 2nd or 3rd choice, why did they end up here ? I suspect because they didn't get their 1st or 2nd, but there must be some other advantage vs the many other places they could have to?
Oh, I meant it more as an anecdote of how we are already not the top choice for a lot of people. Competition for students between universities is ruthless, and we are going to lose at this rate, I'm afraid.
Choice and competition goes both way. If the students are only looking for a cheap(er) place, I am not sure what Finland wins, big countries have soft power incentives, Finland not much. I'd favor a system which reward students who decide to make Finland their home, even if not forever, vs dine and dash. If most students are of the first type than it wouldn't change much things.
That's a fair point, but I'm not sure if raising tuition is necessarily bringing us more committed students. Our location is geographically challenging, language is extremely difficult and cost of living high. There are a lot of things that will not tip the scale in our favor. Especially if you need to finance your studies on your own, it's extremely difficult without a viable scholarship scheme.
I'm a non-eu who came to Finland. I got my scholarship (due to my high performance) for my studies at a very top university but chose to remain here, since I wanted to give back to the Finnish society for helping me set up myself. But if I were asked to pay from the get go, I'd have gone to Germany or Italy. And yeah, raising tuition fee, will bring different tiers of students who have money with no grit and less capabilities. I've witnessed this first hand as my supervisor professor took in only non-eu scholarship students for masters thesis work due to this aspect.
Having to pay education costs up front is a heavy burden to put on students and puts them on a lower standing compared to natives.
That's the issue, that it's already not the best that try to move to Finland to study. Yes, maybe University of Helsinki and such has actual top talent, but smaller unis and AMKs get those kids who can't get into more prestigious places on a scholarship. In the case of EU-students, it's a lot of spoiled Western European kids whose families can afford to pay their high living costs in Finland but couldn't afford tuition in more prestigious places in Western Europe, and with non-EU it's the people who will do anything to settle down in Europe, and who can make it to Finland but often have barely enough funds to eat properly. I know a lot of students like these, and while some just cannot physically adapt to Finland, many would love to stay. The problem is that few of them can get jobs without Finnish skills. So well, if non-EU students have to pay more, international programs will be even more full of the mediocre EU brats and it will be out of reach for people from outside the EU who might not be top talent, but are at least determined and willing to work. Finnish higher education (again, maybe with the exception of UnIHel) is just not good enough to attract fee-paying students from China and India and the like, whom higher quality universities elsewhere can count on. In this form, introducing higher tuitions will just further erode quality.
Because Finnish was cheap and we were told that we'll integrate just fine without Finnish. If Finland is as expensive as Canada or Australia then most people wouldn't want to be here. Just ask any foreign student community, you'll get the same answer. I came here 15 years ago when things were even cheaper, but I somewhat regret that I didn't go with more expensive options.
That’s the point. They want foreigners to stay away.
Well... If that happens there goes my only chance to study in Finland in the near future
if you become proficient in Finnish, you can study for free in program that's taught in Finnish (at least for now)
As much as others have said that countless times on here I truly feel like people aren’t grasping that very important concept…that all of this only pertains to people who want to be taught in English. If you learn Finnish, as one should strive for, there are free programs. If you spend time and money learning Finnish it’s much cheaper than having to pay full tuition to be taught in English.
No one is gonna learn enough Finnish for higher education before even moving to Finland. If your plan is to only attract people who are already madly in love with Finnish culture, you're not gonna get a whole lot of candidates.
Students want to learn the core subject, languages are secondary.
You kinda need the language if you want to stay tho, it definitely is important to your integration. And the entire point of free education is that it's an investment in future educated workers that part part of the society
Do you know how long it will take to become fluent enough to study in Uni? at least 5 years of constant interacting with Finnish language; speaking, hearing and reading.
Mate not gonna lie though, who's got time to learn Finnish
Well if you're planning to stay here after degree, it'll pay back with higher salary and better job prospects. If you're just going to shop for free degree and move abroad, then it's probably justified you have to pay for your degree.
People who have a deep interest in Finland, Finnish and being successful there. Arguably, it’s about respect as well. Nothing worse than someone who wants to live in a country and not learn it’s language. People who have perfect English can only get so far there and anybody on this sub can tell you that. It doesn’t make sense to me to live in Finland and not learn Finnish. But, to answer you, who’s got the time? We all do. It’s about making time. A simple 1h a day a few times a week can kickstart someone off. It’s about wanting to learn.
Sorry but I've got room in my brain for one family of languages only.
I just thought about this. Recently, like from the 90s onwards(?) there has been significant amounts of foreigners coming to Finland to get a bachelors degree, or a masters degree, or something equating to those. I have no problem with this. On the contrary, I always was excited to see foreign students, and am wholeheartedly *for* internationalization (if thats a word) of Finland. BUT When thinking about this from a governments perspective -a government that is taking more and more loan- .. What are the results of this policy that encouraged foreigners to come study here? What has happened as a result of that? As far as I know: some people have gotten married in Finland, and some have found employment. But more to the point, most of these foreign students, after getting their degree with heavy compensation from the Finnish government, simply left for work abroad and never paid a dime of taxes to Finland. If you look at the subject from this perspective, i think wanting foreign students to cover the costs of their degrees is just common sense. Edit: wording
I see your point, but we need to think about what Finland wants in the long term. If Finland wants more skilled foreigners to come and work here, this is not a solution. Instead of increasing tuition fees which are already high for many non-EU students, we should invest in integration and employment opportunities, so that their tax will pay off their education and beyond.
But you're not looking at those who stayed and paid taxes for many years, which is insanely profitable to the Finnish state.
You keep on repeating that on every reply, how profitable? Where’s the breakdown of numbers?
You can find here numbers on contribution and services consumed by Finnish households: https://yle.fi/a/3-10550342 You'll find that the bulk of services consumed do not apply to foreign graduates. Foreign graduates who are employed are immediately net payers.
Do you have your numbers right? It may be "profitable" to Finland to have new workforce even if half of the educated people leave Finland after studies. Even Finnish natives leave Finland after studies and we don't expect them to pay back taxes or so. We ought to make Finland a place someone would *want* to stay. I think we have the potential, but the execution has to be honed, though.
They can kiss my non-EU ass.
They better be making sure the education is up to par with the cost then. Right now some new programs in my city's uni are like a test to see what works and the students are the guinea-pigs. It's not fair to ask someone to pay thousands when the education they receive is subpar at best and they could have learned more about it from the Internet by themselves 😑
I was planning on applying to Universities in Finland. Can someone please let me know if the scholarships would still be there? Also now they'll have application fees, why are they doing this
No one knows sadly
How quickly would this be implemented and changed I’m a forgein student graduating in like 4 years am i gonna be fucked?
Last time tuition fees were introduced, they didn't apply to people already in the system.
I am an non-eu international planning on applying this year for undergrad. Will these changes effect scholarship schemes or just drive up overall fees
Finland is creating a very messy situation. I studied at TUT/ now TUNI with 100% scholarship and working full time in a reputed Finnish company. However, we all know and agree without any questions that Finland lacks a huge amount of specialists in every possible sector. Such regulations will never improve Finlands reputation and capabilities within leading nations
Any proof or evidence to back up your claim that "Finland lacks a huge amount of specialists", because obviously if it really needs specialists, foreigners in tech sector could have thrived, but in reality, it does not.
At the same time, all Finnish universities are scrambling to recruit as many foreign students as possible, because their funding from the Ministry of Education and Culture depends heavily on the number of students they can graduate. Since the number of Finnish students in higher education is going to sink dramatically in the next few decades (because the birthrate has steadily fallen for a long time now), the universities have to recruit from abroad to keep their funding.
Aren't they already? Most students there I know are paying over 12-15k Euros/year for masters except the ones with blue cards which are very few. It has been this way for a few years now, Finland has too many universities and not enough English speaking jobs...2 years is not enough to learn business level finnish either on top of regular education.
As a foreigner that wants to live in Finland in the near future I agree with this. If you have not been raised in Finland (thus having parents that paid taxes for your scholarships and stuff like that) it simply makes no sense that someone from the outside can come and take advantage of Finns public money. Its simply wrong. IMO, if you’re willing to study in a foreign country you should be ready to spend some money from your pocket or get some kind of help from your home country.
Foreign students do have to pay tuition. The problem is that Finnish universities have been enjoying the "greatest education system" fable inherited from the 2000s by schoolers to attract good students. None of Finnish universities are in world top 100 anymore. They look like business schools more than academic institutions. Thus you got less quality students, who may or may not stay, instead of good students who may or may not stay.
You're not looking at the flipside: the Finnish state also didn't finance primary school and high school for foreigners.
But foreign students pay 12-15k/year. I cannot believe people are this misinformed. Very few people get scholarships. Also you expect people to pay lets say for a masters degree their current expenses are around 50-60k for two years, when they find a job it doesn't pay them that well considering they are new to the finnish market, talented folks already look towards others in that case just to pay off debt. Cannot imagine if fees increased. Its not like USA where folks get 100k+ salaries after graduation.
According to this logic Finnish employers (or the state lol) should pay very well those employees that completed their education elsewhere... It's a globalized world, people are moving. If you do it well, talent comes to you and stays. But you can't just expect foreigners to never use Finnish tax payers money but then also want highly educated workforce to come to Finland.
with all Finnish universities kicked out of top 100, this is what they come up with. I guess no trying thus no failure. As someone who worked long in the academia, this is detrimental to research. Finnish students are not keen to do PhD, ones that do only stick to Finnish group leaders. Almost all foreign group leaders rely on foreign students as PhD candidates. It is a huge disadvantage if you dont get to know them (courses, summerjobs) before offering them PhD position.
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I'm kind of on the fence with this. My now wife moved to Finland study from a non EU/EEA country. Back then there were no tuitions. Had there been tuitions, she would not have had been able to come here to study. Initially she could not find a job after her graduation and had to do work in the fast food and cleaning industry. This is when many foreigners end up going to another country (sorry, I don't have statistics on my hand to prove my claim). Fast forward, she has now been working in the IT-sector for the last few years. And since we are planning to have kids... I guess she really ended up being exactly the kind of an immigrant "we want". I don't know how many are like her. From point of view of resources, it is problematic when/if someone studies in Finland tuition free and then end up moving to another country.
I'm one of those people languishing in manual labor jobs after my graduation (management, average grade). I think it's complicated because it's true that it's probably a net loss for public funds that the students study and leave and pay no further tax, but the tuition fees go to fund the Finnish university and the related staff. The students also have to pay a lot of money here to cover living cost while studying or work to finance their own living expense (like me). Whether it's good or bad, I don't think I know enough to tell. What I know is that the reluctance to hire foreign students for high paying jobs will always be there except for demanding sectors like IT or nursing. I studied for free so I can't say I want people to pay. But having a serious tuition fees may attract non-EU students to fields with actual high labor demand.
Exactly the same story as my wife, she worked in cleaning during her studies, then got work at the university as a funded PhD student. We ended up moving out of Finland, but may very well move back soon. I am not against implementing these changes. Yes, for some it will make things hard or impossible even though they have a good attitude. However, there are waaaay too many people who come for the good university education and then just move back once they have their degree. At least the state should benefit while they are studying here.
Do you think anyone would learn Finnish to study on their own money? Studies in English were never free.
>Studies in English were never free. Today I learned I paid for my degree???
They were free until 2017. Then they introduced tuition fees. Now the plan is to raise the fees to cover the full cost of the education.
Haha. Already the number of international students are dropping tremendously and the fools in KOK and PS want to raise the fees more. Students would easily go to US, Canada, Australia, New Zealand etc… and Finland will be left with oldies in the upcoming decades. I suppose PS doesn’t mind that coz it’s the right ethnic breed and therefore “reasonable “!
Out of curiosity what % of students are from outside of the EU? I hope it doesn't affect filling seats in Finnish universities long term.
I'm also wondering if this applies for PhD level studies.
Stop alarming all the time. This is basically for one reason: there are many students going to Finland to study, after they finish, they go back to their countries and never come back. Finland is forming student around the world 🤣 they want ppl to stay after finishing their studies
This government is allergic to foreigners
As they should
Paying Finnish taxes that partly go towards financing higher education while paying the full cost of your own education sounds reasonable to you?
these people aren't tax payers generally, they are non-eu students that come here purely to study, even if they worked the maximum allowed under a student visa, it wouldn't cover a fraction of the cost.
The tuition fees apply also to those who go on to stay and work in Finland.
Sadly, many people move away from the Nordics to places that pay a lot more.
Perfect logic, let's charge the ones that remain way more so they leave, too.
But the tuition fees still apply to those who stay.
Would you support this idea? Non-eu citizens have to pay tuition but if they stay and work in finland for 10 years after they finish their education they will receive a full refund.
10 years is way too much. I'd rather see an immediate tax deduction when you start working. The Netherlands does this and you don't even need to have graduated there.
10 years would be an excellent way to encourage these people to actually stay in finland instead of just doing their schooling and fucking off. If you've already been there a decade, why leave now?
A tax deduction achieves the same thing.
I would, just make it a yearly tax rebate. Big companies that complains about workforce shortage can also provide scholarship.
Rather unfortunate and a step back in what should slowly become the norm in most of the world. The current government is pretty anti-internationalist, which is sad to see in a time when internationalism is needed more than ever before.
This country has steadily been turning into a shithole for a while now. This new government is just accelerating the process
If this finally makes Finnish universities make their teaching better I'm up for it.
It doesn't. Very few students actually want to pay to study here and the profits are marginal to overall budget. You know what would help? If kokoomus didn't cut universities base funding every single year.
Don't count on it.
You will be pretty much literally able to go to Oxford for the same price you are going to pay for University of Helsinki.
Except that you won't. Because if you can get into Oxford, you'd go to Oxford already now.
Except that you won’t choose ever to come to Finland, and no, you may not have the money.
Maybe you'll never come to Finland. There are many options with financing.
Financing is spending, you will never come to Finland because there’s no real value when you can go to an English speaking country for less.
> if you can get into Oxford, you'd go to Oxford Of course. But Oxford competes with Harvard - Yale etc. Not around top 100ish schools. But you should compare similar universities and countries. Would you go to Karolinska or Helsinki? If you had to pick one? Aalto or KTH?
It depends the subject I guess. On pure ranking Karolinska, and with language ROI, also KTH. But I don't like the idea that Helsinki and Aalto are chosen because they are cheap, that's what we should be working on.
Aalto Arts is in top 10 in its own field. It's literally one of the world best universities for art and design.
A foreigner will take a quick look at employment prospects in art and design in Finland and fuck off elsewhere.
Good. The usually move back to their own countries anyways.
Those that don't are very profitable for the Finnish state though.
I would like to see some actual numbers. If it is a net positive thing for Finland then I don’t see a problem.
Yle reported 50% https://yle.fi/a/74-20022258, I suspect it is a bit less long term.
Here's some numbers on the situation of foreign students in Finland after graduation: https://www.oph.fi/sites/default/files/documents/Ulkomaalaisten%20opiskelijoiden%20ty%C3%B6llistyminen%20Suomeen%20valmistumisen%20j%C3%A4lkeen%202019.pdf And some numbers on who finances society in Finland: https://yle.fi/a/3-10550342 The bulk of services received among young people are social income transfers, which foreigners are not eligible for, and training, which foreigners only receive for a few years compared to Finns who need to be educated for nearly two decades. Foreign students are almost certainly a net positive.
Its not (a net positive) Finland is a good country with a more-than-okay education system, and we have been handing out degrees to foreigners who arent in any way interested in staying. If you find any numbers about this, this is what it will show, i predict.
1/3 of foreigners are still in Finland 5 years after graduation but cost a fraction to educate compared to natives.
The Finnish government has the stats, hence the cuts to free education .
I doubt that foreign students are a drain on public finances. I believe the government is simply looking to milk foreigners even more.
Who do you think will pay your pension?
You do know that they will also get a pension right.
Yes, do you know that for the system to be sustainable there needs to be a critical mass of people working at all times right? With the natality rate of Finland, it won’t work. But don’t take my word for it. https://www.helsinkitimes.fi/finland/finland-news/domestic/22915-etla-finland-should-almost-triple-net-migration-gains-to-44-000.html
We are deeply sorry and ashamed of our current right wing government.
That has nothing to do with this. There has been talk about tuition fees long before the current government.
I dont see the issue, when about half of international students already leave after they habe graduated. Why educate people for free that wont stay here and contribute?
it's not even half that stay after 2 years, less than 27% are still in finland after 2 years....
Yeah i mentioned in another comment that about half consider staying. But dont know how many actually do
Because those that stay make it worth it. Remember that those that stay didn't cost the Finnish state a penny for their compulsory education.
Do you have a source to back up that claim. Id happily change my mind if shown studies and stats that say giving the education for free to foreign is worth it for the country and economy.
Compulsory and higher education cost roughly the same on a yearly basis, so the cost to educate a Finn up to the level of a master's degree you need to pay for at least 18 years of education whereas it's only 5 for a foreigner. Since half of the foreigners leave, you could say that you need to pay for 10 years instead. Even then it's already worth it, if we assume that educating a Finn is profitable. Now this doesn't take into consideration what fields foreigners tend to go into, how long they actually stay in Finland, how many foreigners are only completing a master's vs bachelor's+master's, how much money they generate for the Finnish state through VAT and other indirect taxes or the fact that foreigners are not eligible for student financial aid and other forms of social security that Finns are, but it gives you a rough idea. I'm not aware of any official or at least professional calculations made on this subject taking into account all the factors.
So you get at least half of them as new Finnish speakers. That would be reduced to zero. Is that what you want?
No, you get maybe half of them. Nothing also says they will be fluent in finnish. Studies show that half consider stay after graduation. I havent seen stats about how many actually end up staying. The fact thta half consider it, dosent mean that they do
Genuine question, why should Finland pay foreigners’ studies?
Policies to Promote internationalisation in Finnish higher education and research 2017–2025 - Valtioneuvosto https://julkaisut.valtioneuvosto.fi/bitstream/handle/10024/79438/Better%20Together%20for%20Better%20World%20-%20Leaflet%202018.pdf?sequence=17&isAllowed=y
The concept has sadly failed, most students leave finland (I think there may be an actual tilastokeskus statistic for this) after graduation so we currently only receive all the costs with little benefit. The problem is that its very hard for people who aren't speaking finnish to find jobs in most economic sectors, especially when some of the employers also expect you to understand swedish as well. Could be easily solved by giving English language an official recognition as lingua franca for working in Finland.
I think the requirement of employement after 3 months or expelling from country was the crippling strike on all future international projects. This is just icing on the cake to blow finland back to 70's. Sad.
This is the end for My plans of studying in Finland. What other countries can i choose?
If you become fluent in Finnish, as of now, you can still study for free in study program that's taught entirely in Finnish.
Wtf this was not the case already? (coming from Australia) Not that I support it it's just a surprise. In Australia education is an export industry. If Finland, for example, subsidies education export to attract skilled migrants, that makes sense. If Finland simply effectively give money to foreigner to study there for no reason yeh that does not make sense.
This is dumb and racists as a finnish country we should be welcoming me immigrants and helping them. i'm ashamed to be finnish
This does not apply to EI students.. Just FYI
Does anyone know if they plan to get rid of the exception of tuition for non-EU students who study in Finnish?
Was that not the norm before? I was under the impression that If a foreign student wants to study in English then it's the full amount for the tuition fee, but if they are proficient in Finnish, then the costs are negligible. Am I mistaken about this?
Regardless of lanaguge if you are non EU and not a permanent resident, you still pay full tuition. Only exception is Blue card visa which means you came to Finland under a STEM related work permit and earn over 55k or something it depends on the specific EU country. Certain degrees are the exception though but not in most universities no.
i hate these racist right wingers
Why its ”Petteri Orpo’s right wing government”? How many times Yle wrote ”Sanna Marin’s left wing government”? Especially when it was about negative news to some people🤔
Literally all the fucking time lol
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If only YLE was run by left leaning and liberal foreigners.
If they want foreign students to cover full tuition costs then they should not discriminate EU people with non-EU people then. In fact they should even stop opening admissions to any applicants residing outside of Finland altogether. That does sound like a great plan. Make Finland great again
Spoken like a true Finn ready to pay 100 so that the neighbor doesn't get 50. Finland has decided to be in the EU, one aspect of it is that EU citizens have more or less the same rights as locals within the EU, Countries and Meta-countries are inherently discriminating between internals and externals.
> then they should not discriminate EU people with non-EU people then That's illegal.
https://preview.redd.it/3emq4t44z9mb1.jpeg?width=640&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=d8ff86f2164c450e6b221a577f308109b8ae817b
It's because immigrants come into our country and we spend a lot of money on them just for them to leave back to like Fucking India or something