I mean consider the next scene we see the Stark Jegan mitigate the funnels by gunning for the Kshatriya directly, I don't think oldtypes are completely defenseless against funnels.
Funnels have existed since the OYW, due to factors like the rarity of Newtype pilots and the tech involved, oldtype pilots aren't going out of fashion anytime soon.
There are also levels amongst Newtypes - some Newtypes are far better at controlling funnels than others - eg Haman, Char and Amuro. Char tried the close combat tactic against Haman in Zeta and got absolutely wasted and nearly lost his life with Haman just using funnels and not even having to saber duel. While Char and Amuro in CCA are so good with funnels they were dogfighting each others' funnels in ways we've never seen before.
Marida is actually at the lower end of the spectrum because she had to use saber against the Jegan pilot when the Jegan closed in. If anything it shows that the deciding factor is going to be on the pilot.
> Char tried the close combat tactic against Haman in Zeta
That scene was absolutely brutal for Char, you can see it in his face. The Hyaku Shiki was totally outgunned & outclassed by the Qubeley.
Never understood why they never upgraded Char's mobile suit. Here you have a perfectly good Newtype Ace Pilot that struck fear into the hearts of the Federation, seems like the perfect candidate for a new super prototype (Delta Gundam anyone?)
And you know it wouldn't be a waste of money because his whole schtick was being really hard to hit.
Half of it I could see was justifying the costs. There were multiple other theaters during the conflict, so if Quattro was good with what he had, and Camille was doing even better in the transition from the mk ii to Zeta, why spend more?
The other I could imagine was just not giving Char THAT much power. For now, he was necessary to deal with the Titans and trying to keep Haman from making things worse in the Earthsphere.
The Delta Gundam failed in the simulations due to frame damage from transforming
Thus it became the shiki as we know it until kamille found the plans and redesigned it a bit, 1 of the engineers saw it and took it to a Anaheim where we got the Zeta
Indeed, they gave us a very fair reason why the Delta couldn't be a thing at first. I just giving an example of a potential unit they could use for ~~Char~~ Quattro.
If Anaheim can create the impractical ZZ Gundam and the absolutely bonkers Unicorn, I always assumed they could've worked backwards and used the data from the Zeta Gundam and Hyaku Shiki to improve the old Delta Gundam design much earlier to create a sort of midpoint between the Delta Gundam and Delta Plus.
Here is at least one of the units.
https://gundam.fandom.com/wiki/MSF-007_Gundam_Mk-III
The Gundam Mk.III that was in development during the Gryps War had one unit slated (supposedly) for use by Char, specifically while he was Quattro Bajeena.
The hyaku shiki can be seen as a metaphor for chars character in that its flashy, is somewhat of a failure yet wants to be front and center but ultimately didn't live up to the expectations put upon it and fails hard trying to reach them
Holy shit dude, that was way too real. Yet so accurate.
https://preview.redd.it/rblo7monpfkc1.png?width=1200&format=png&auto=webp&s=af514f88fe728b90f1f05868b45a135517a0bb1d
That isn't the case with aircraft. After WW1 the capabilities of the aircraft matters far more than the pilot. Pilots can only do so much to cover the weaknesses of the aircraft.
Well it’s a good thing we’re not talking about real life aircraft and are instead talking about fictional machines of war where the rules are made up and the points don’t matter, and I was specifically referencing a very prominent quote from the most recent series of said fictional work as a fitting response to the previous commenter’s statement 🤓
AS THE STRONGEST MS, JEGOAT, FOUGHT THE FRAUD, THE KSHATRIYA, HE BEGAN TO OPEN HIS DOMAIN
MARIDA SHRUNK BACK IN FEAR, THEN THE JEGOAT PILOT SAID:
"DAMN SLEEVES"
>factors like the rarity of Newtype pilots and the tech involved, oldtype pilots aren't going out of fashion anytime soon.
This is the main thing. Funnels still require a Newtype to properly work in UC, and those guys are still crazy rare even by late UC.
Speaking of which, I don't recall a lot of stuff with funnels in late UC in general. I'm sure there is stuff, but it felt like by CCA they were setting up funnels and the use thereof as the next step in MS design.
The Federation hides the existence of newtypes in Unicorn out of fear, they're in Victory and a bit in Crossbone (Judau leaves for Proxima Centauri in Victory Side story with a whole colony full of them). That with the loss of technology and knowledge later in UC makes them basically lost history
F91 would've likely brought them back into prominence had it had a proper series instead of a movie. NOT.Darth Vader was a Cyber Newtype and he had some seriously scary control over the Rafflesia. Had the Rafflesia actively engaged a Federation task force, it likely would've easily trashed anything it came into contact with.
EDIT: Also, Judau leaving with a colony full of New types to go to ProxCen is totally how WH40K's early Golden Age of Technology Expansion Phase started. Gundam confirmed 40K prequel. (lol)
>Judau leaves for Proxima Centauri in Victory Side story with a whole colony full of them
Huh, never knew that. I knew he went out to Jupiter at the end of ZZ, doesn't he?
Miniaturization of MS might have had something to do with it. It changed the way suits were built. Also the reintroduction of high fire rate machine guns along with beam machine guns being more common meant that suppressing and destroying funnles became easier.
The only example of late UC funnles tech I remember being used was the Gengaozo's funnel-like backpack. Since I don't think the buzzsaws from f91 are newtype controlled.
https://preview.redd.it/ahtmuehjidkc1.png?width=1000&format=png&auto=webp&s=1f945cd04e573b9186c509ae4b8d1ffb5c0ec09b
I wonder if beam shields also cut down on it. Funnels were great for cutting through armor, but I'd the enemy has a beam shield they might be far less useful.
This, funnels were strong at first because they were fighting against fodder units with limited weaponry.
But by the late UC even the grunt units are capable of dealing decent damage and have access to a number of weapons and defensive systems to fight against funnels. Of course a Newtype still has the advantage in a fight, but if enough Oldtypes combine their attacks they can overwhelm a regular Newtype pilot.
Yeah, Chaff and Air burst proximity based explosive weapons would do a number on funnels. Especially if the explosive weapons had a decently high rate of fire.
Newtypes become rarer between F91 and Victory because Judau took most of not all on a ship out of the solar system to colonize other planets so that Newtypes wouldn't be used for wars. Which becomes funnier since they are the most likely origin of the Turn X.
> those guys are still crazy rare even by late UC.
huh pretty much everyone was a NT in victory, even Marvets child and karlman.
I don't think there's a really good in universe reason for funnels not being common in F91 and victory anymore. Used to seem more like a move away from newtype magic before Unicorn and other stuff was animated. I just assumed Tomino was kind of done with it and wanted to move away from it.
Yeah, there aren't a ton of newtypes. Most battles still seem to be fought with old fashioned grunts, we just get to see when the swoopy models come in and wreck shop with their funnels.
Yazan is a very rare outlier, though.
Don't get me wrong, he's incredibly skilled as a pilot, but he's also very unique in his ability to seemingly take on just about anyone in his era by virtue of sheer reflex.
It's like trying to take on Jedi in Star Wars, you HAVE to be at the apex when your opponent has Spidey-senses.
>It's like trying to take on Jedi in Star Wars,
Correct. This is a perfect example.
Most people would never try. They'll die immediately.
But mandalorians, other skilled warriors, advanced droids, and more were capable of such.
Yazan was so good that he *almost* became a Newtype.
The only reason he didn't is because he literally refused to become one when given the opportunity.
> For example given an up to date MS Yazan can easily avoid Funnels.
I don't think there's anything to strictly suggest Yazan could easily avoid Funnels. Hell, I don't think he fights anyone with Funnels period in Zeta and the Newtypes that he does put up good showings against were on the weaker end of the spectrum. Emma's Mk. II and Char's Hyaku Shiki weren't Newtype use suits, only the Zeta was, and as soon as Kamille actually made use of the Zeta's NT abilities, he kinda walked over Yazan
Sure but that's assuming the opponent is not a skilled newtype with psychoframe which is used on that stage of UC.
Char with his Dijeh literally played the Chimera corps and Yazan corps which consist of up to date custom suits with top notch oldtype pilot and cyber newtype.
The only one that stand a chance are Johnny Ridden and Yazan in a 2 on 1 situation. And even then they are beaten in a flash after Char activates the Psychoframe.
I mean, Funnels are strong but all it takes is Heavy Armor, the right amount of Missiles or something that moves extremely fast.
Wouldn't something like the GP03 with an I Field utterly wreck funnel suits?
The full dendrobiums status as a flying missile battery would probably negate funnels from the get go due to having superior area denial capabillity thanks to its never-ending stream of projectiles, multi-target engagement capabillity and the presence of an I-Field.
Wich speaks to just how powerful properly build funnel suits are, in a "look what they need to mimic a fraction of our power", Since IIRC the Dendrobium rums entirely upon its computers, and no psychoframe or newtype abillities are present.
Entirely on the pilots skill along with the suit
Kou barely managed against a mobile armors half system wired claws letalone actual incoms or actual funnels
Not really. Still depends on the funnel master's suit and pilot skill. Even though this is out of universe example, Rau Le Creuset in Providence wrecks Kira in Meteor+Freedom. Kira was spamming missles only for it to be shot down.
If anything, Meteor was a hindrance to Kira because it makes him a larger target.
You forgot the iField though. The GP03 had an iField whereas the METEORs were very vulnerable.
Also, Rau is an edgecase since he didn't just have funnels, the Providence's DRAGOONs had multiple beam guns that can function as nets to trap incoming missiles which is rarely done by other funnels.
If anything, I think Heavyarms IGEL or Sandrock Armadillo with the Missile addons would be good countermeasures since Micro Missiles do not have to be too powerful to destroy a funnel and the suits themselves have been shown to tank anything less than Mega Launchers.
>You forgot the iField though
That's assuming the funnels remain the same, which in UC...they would remain the same. UC is actually the worst case to use for funnel strength example since they rarely evolve beyond being a gun or one time use missile.
Edit: forgot there is Moon Gundam whose funnels are physical so it would have no problem against iFields.
In Seed, although they don't have iField equivalent, they do the beam shield equivalent which, although the scope of protection is limited, protects from both of physical and beam attacks. And their DRAGOONS have the capability to pierce through such defense by being a beam missile. Should UC funnels encounter more iFielders, they likely would have evolved to be able to counter them.
>since Micro Missiles do not have to be too powerful to destroy a funnel
It might work against low tier funnel masters and pilots, but against aces that are shown able to destroy/evade missiles, their funnels also can shoot down missiles as well. As for invulnerability, that's not something most mobile suit can achieve.
Still, point stands. If only the top 10% of Enhanced Beings using remote weaponry can actually outclass some of the most basic countermeasures, then that means Upper end Oldtypes are not really that outclassed Vs. most off the shelf Enhanced pilots with ranged weapons.
But that's assuming oldtypes can carry the countermeasures and even enough of them. Missiles aren't standard in most mobile suits because of their limited number and that they tend to be susceptible to EC-like counter measures. And then the costs.
Assuming that the side that don't have funnel master couldn't or refuse to make mobile armors to carry those missiles to counter them, they have to outfit their standard suits with those missiles. Assuming again, if they could outfit all of them.
Trying to use missiles against them is like using a one time use funnel that has high chance of failing versus someone that has unlimited funnels.
That's assuming funnels are easy to replace too. Psycommu weapons arent cheap to begin with.
End of the day, It's a bit more iffy for UC but for AUs, Anno Domini Haros with Rifle Bits and Shield Bits FTW. Oldtype Friendly and still able to function like a newtype.
That's why you use air burst proximity based explosives. Get them close to the funnel and they'll explode and destroy it. Especially if they have a fast flight speed like most anti-air armaments are designed to have.
because most of late UC MS lost the Psycommu tech because of Unicorn fiasco (hence why Narrative is needed to explained why Psycommu is becoming more like a taboo and totally make the world forgets about newtype alltogether)
now they rely on firepower and speed alone because the advancement in the reactor
The F91 demonstrates the tech wasn't lost though. The F91 has a psycho-frame around the cockpit and essentially uses a more advanced NT-D system (bio-computer).
Bio-computer isn’t evolved from NT-D, it’s evolved from Bio-sensor first seen in zeta gundam which preceded psycommu systems. I wouldn’t say it’s a more advanced, it’s more of a separate branch of development
There were psycommu systems before Zeta. They had them in OG Gundam. They were just gigantic (i.e. Mobile armors and Zeong). So actually, psycommu (supposed we could call them "proto psycommus") predated the Bio Sensor tech.
They weren't commonplace until Gryps Conflict and the onset of Neo Zeon War I (Haman). By that point Neo Zeon/Axis Zeon had perfected and downsized the psycommu tech to fit regular sized mobile suits (not so unlike when the computers that created the first nukes could fill a building, now our phones have more computing power).
Going back to our earlier convo, always wanted to see/hear more about the Bio-Sensor System since it seemed to be largely forgotten after ZZ. Psycommu and Funnels are bad ass, but it seemed like with the Bio-Sensor powerful NTs like Kamille and Judau could overpower and defeat funnels fairly easily. I preferred that over the NTD myself.
On a completely unrelated note, I want my Waverider version of a Bio-Sensor equipped Bawoo (Zeon's Zeta and I won't be convinced otherwise).
I meant to say psycho frame psychommu, because they served similar purposes as bio-sensor. I got too lazy and didn’t want to go back and fix it. But yeah, bio-sensor were cool. But they were impractical cause only the most powerful Newtype can bring out their full potential compare to psychoframe
Ah, yes, touché. That is also why I found the quasipsycommu in Neue Ziel and Doven Wolf so interesting. Leveled the playing field for Oldtypes and Newtypes IMO. Would have been cool to see Psycoframe get more deep dive in series format. I don't feel like Unicorn (I haven't seen Gundam NT yet) touched on it any. UC Gundam seems to have a habit of leaving out key points of discussion for the tech.
Lol, me neither, when I watched zeta, I thought it was all the souls of the women (and Katz) just entered and possessed zeta. I just later learned it’s was being hosted by the bio-sensor
F91 Psychoframe isn't use as intended because they lost the know how of it even Gundam and Newtype concept is gone at that time (putting the head armor of F91 and someone said "wait isn't that thing used to be called a Gundam" and somebody asked "what is a Gundam" clearly stated that Government doesn't want public to know the existence of those MS even though they have a Guntank as museum piece but not a single info on Gundam)
Bio Computer and NT-D is a different thing all together and you cannot said one is more advanced than the other
Bio Computer is more like a System (similar to Zero System in Wing) which calculates and gives input and output for the pilot, hence Pilot with newtype aptitude is able to take in more data while NT-D is an OS similar how EXAM, HADES, NITRO, Offense Mode and Demon Blade is deployed and it required to work in tandem with Newtype and Psychoframe
hell Even the tech is downgraded much more in the G-Saviour
if we talk more into the future its pretty long years that UC got into upgraded tech such as Nanomachine and FTL travel in Mad Wang (probably the year that they start concepting Turn Units because of the technology and weird weird design, also by that time there's no trace of the word "Gundam")
TBH it should have been, but it wasn't. The great thing about funnels is they let you attack from a range beyond what other MS or ships can (because minovsky particles). But they hardly ever use them like that. Marida did it once with the Kshatriya, and Lalah used the Elmeth's bits that way, but every other time the pilots keep their funnels swarming around near their MS.
Funnels should be terrifying. A beam coming out of nowhere to perfectly pierce your most vulnerable point. Even if you shoot down the funnel you don't know where the operator is. They could be a mile away! Like a sniper who can bend shots around corners.
But I guess most newtypes just don't put out psycho-waves that can reach that far? Who knows.
It's probably more exhausting for the pilot to shoot from farther ranges. If i remember correctly Lalah gets exhausted after taking out a few ships when testing the Elmeth.
i think they have a more practical application as multi directional or engaging multiple targets at once within visual range. long range attacks only go so far when the whole battlefield knows you’re there
Actually, that's the difference between the Elmeth's bits and standard funnels: Bits have their own power generator. Funnels don't and have to return to their home mobile weapon to recharge.
Problem would probably be fuel or some sort, the funnels would have to be having some beefy generator and propellant for BVR strikes assuming they could connect to those funnels
Yeah to be fair each of the Elmeth's bits was like the size of a mobile suit's torso. Most funnels are pretty small, like two or three meters longs, so I guess it makes sense that they can't go further.
Funnels are advantageous because Minovsky Particles made them hard to detect in a cluttered battlefield and because mobile suits pre-F90 were still floating rocks in space for the most part. Once space mobility reached much higher speeds, funnels effectively disappeared from the battlefield. The strongest mobile weapon in the Zanscare War was the fastest Gundam to have ever been produced with what was effectively two huge beam exhausts on its sides slicing and dicing enemies as it darts across the battlefield.
edit: We also see this obsolescence in AUs, where remote weaponry is overcome by raising the bar for high performance mobile weapons. Rau Le Creuset was famously defeated by Kira Yamato due to his over reliance on the analogous DRAGOONs in SEED. This dynamic was repeated most recently when Suletta Mercury piloted the Caliburn Gundam and survived the Quiet Zero gauntlet.
Tbh I don’t think Eri was aiming at killing Suletta. She just wanted her to go away.
It might be controversial but if Eri fought to kill I think she would have beaten Suletta.
And uh, how do you think she was going to make Suletta go away? I really don't think the tanuki was just going to give up as long as Calibarn was still operational.
Yeah I think that's the point. The whole quiet zero battle is a two people (well actually a lot of people) trying very hard to not kill each other in suits that then to be kind of explody (unless you spray them with whip cream or something).
I like how they introduce the "don't explode" gun in the last episode. Those probably could have saved some lives earlier. (iirc, it shot like gel balls or something. I think it was the last episode)
It became harder for regular old type pilots to fight new types but when the biocomputers started being installed new types started to lose all their advantages.
I don't think it was the I-Field, just that the Kastrycia had such a huge thrust advantage over the Jegan that it could accelerate backwards faster than the Jegan forwards at full charge. You see the thrusters on the pedals flaring just before he hits her.
Its great, except you have the problem of numbers.
Newtype isn't exactly common, where as old type is... numerous to say the least.
Your Kshatriya can clown on 3 Jegans, but if there was 100, you're gona have to plot armor the shit out of the bell pepper to make it work.
And also, I-field pretty much completely negates Funnels.
Newtypes that can use funnels are fairly rare. That being said a skilled pilot can still deal with funnels. the Jegan in that very scene nearly takes out the Kshatriya.
Funnels are strictly beam based, aren't they? A countermeasure would be something similar to the Unicorn's shield, which is not only a shield but has an I field Generator.
The thing about Newtypes and Funnels is that they're more emotion/impulse based rather than about precision or fine control. IIRC in CCA Gyunei has his funnels "target the missiles with the highest energy signature". As cheesy as it sounds, all one would need to do was to fluster/troll the Newtype Pilot so they can't concentrate/use the Funnels effectively.
They aren’t necessarily.
Xi and Penelope both have funnels but they are missle funnels. Yes the are just regular missles but with better tracking but still.
You can also have funnels loaded with ballistic weapons. They can't be active for as long due to only being able to carry a small amount of ammunition, but you could equip a funnel with ballistic weaponry.
Funnels are so strong only because your average MS pilot doesn't know that you should ignore them and gun straight for the funnel carrier.
Overall funnels are just another tool for the pilot to use with both its uses and weaknesses.
Going straight for the carrier always confused me, especially in a one-on-one duel. It's literally a huge gamble, since the funnels can shoot you from literally anywhere, and it's not like the person controlling them doesn't know exactly where you are.
It works in the series, but it's always seemed like a major plot contrivance to me. You'd have to be a pretty decent Newtype just to be able to evade the funnels' attacks, it'd be like trying to dodge a swarm of hornets with guns after you kicked their nest. Good friggin' luck.
Well in the case of the Stark Jegan, he opened fire on the kshatriya first, this momentarily distracts Marida before he goes in for the melee.
Of course as you say it is a gamble, as it depends on the skill level of the funnel equip MS as well.
Funnels don't teleport and not exactly precise, Humans aren't meant to control 8+ limbs, so commands are probably "hazy", which is why in the show, when S.Jegan Ejected, his equipment attracted fire.
Also, once you escape the "surrounded by funnel" zone and is shooting straight for the carrier, firing funnels at the target's back also means any beam missed could also hit you, not exactly something you want to do.
Newtypes are pretty far beyond human, so trying to say they can't do something because a human can't is a stretch. They don't even tell us how direct the control is from the Newtype to the bit/funnel. Is it an order given and the bit autonomously carries it out until a new one is issued? Is it a constant state of focus, having to control every little aspect? We can't know how much of a strain it is on the Newtype.
That "probably" is carrying a bit too much for me to take that explanation. Sounds closer to headcanon than actual canon.
I agree that flying head first at the source of the bits/funnels is the best tactic, I just find it surprising how often it works. It doesn't seem like something that would have even a fair chance of succeeding. The bits are FAR faster than the MS are, so calling them back to the mother unit, making a circle and focus-firing the charger would pretty quickly end that engagement.
Funnels don't have perfect accuracy and even if they did their beams tend to overpenetrate the target.
If the carrier used funnels on a target within melee range the risk of hitting yourself is pretty high.
That's making the big assumption the target can *get* to melee range. Lalah isn't the best example of a newtype (she was a pretty powerful one as I understand it), but she was able to control her funnels from so far away her big ass mobile armor wasn't even detectable by radar during the testing of the Elmeth. That's... a LOT of range. Generally measured in miles. With enhanced tech, the range would be increased and the required input would be decreased. That's how tech grows. And given the rate of technological growth in the UC... I find it really hard to believe that small of a group of enemies would be able to present any kind of threat to an even moderately powerful newtype.
Like I said, I know how it played out, but it seems more like a plot contrivance than how it should have actually gone.
It should also bear mentioning that the Elmeth used *bits*, each of which had its own onboard reactor.
IIRC Funnels, unlike bits, generally do not have their own independent power source, requiring them to periodically return to the carrier MS to recharge. This is going to negatively impact the ability to strike from very long range. Off the top of my head, the only MS I can recall whose "funnels" had their own power source was Amuro's *v* Gundam
Aside from what other people have said? Funnels are usually *tiny*—or, if nothing else, still much smaller and faster than whatever is carrying them.
You're still running long odds but going after the carrier is a hell of a lot more likely to work than trying to swat *all* of those little bastards out of the sky before they can get to you.
Remember that unlike manned units or swarms of insects, funnels should just *stop working* if you can kill their carrier or even just distract the pilot badly enough.
its to make the newtype pilot focus on maneuver instead on controlling the funnel, only a few very skilled newtype can control funnel effectively while maintaining offensive or defensive maneuver, and getting close to the newtype mobile suit would make them risk misfiring on themself if their funnel control are not precise enough
It only works if the New type isn't skilled enough, if it's Haman she would probably grab the Jegan and zero distance blast it with funnels while completely missing the Quebeley (EXVS ult attack)
It also wouldn't work if the funnel machine just keep its distance which is 99% the way shooting mechs fight in video games or bait you into closing in
I remember in SDGO I played a Gunbarrel, a bottom tier unit with funnels, and was battling a Impulse, which was a fairly high tier unit (tier C vs tier A) that was mostly melee with some decent ranged, and I just *obliterated* them.
I mean, hiding in cover and using drones was essentially what the Elmeth did. I always found it odd that they shifted *away* from that tactic, rather than leaning more into it. Admittedly, it'd be pretty boring to watch, so I guess servicing the needs of the medium?
But then in SEED Destiny (IIRC) there were a couple of battles where it was essentially bits vs bits (DRAGOONs vs DRAGOONs?) and yeah, it was boring as heck to watch xD
Thunderbolt isn't canon UC, that's why it's usually not brought into UC type discussions. And IIRC in Igloo the anti-MS infantry teams got absolutely decimated unless they had a ton of ambush prep time. In an active battle, not so much. Not sure how canon THAT'S considered to be, but there ya go xD
I'm not entirely sure how they think a portable anti-MS weapon a human can carry will be more effective against an MS than, you know, anti-MS weaponry an MS can carry, but needs must, neh? x3
My point is a LAW (light anti-tank weapon) is about 66mm, while the vulcans (arguably the most useless weapon in Gundam) are rapid fire 60mm cannons. I find it hard to believe that any number of LAW type weapons are going to seriously impact something that vulcans can barely scratch. Even a stinger missile is 70mm, whereas the Zaku Machine Gun is friggin' 120mm. If the anti-MS weapons that a MS can carry have trouble damaging MS, what chance to anti-MS weapons that a person carries have?
08th MS team has that situation happening, but it's not exactly consistent on how effective weapons are. A human suffered no ill effects from the turbulence caused by a 120mm round passing by, very near to muzzle velocity and probably breaking the sound barrier.
A Javelin may or may not have the ability to defeat an MBT’s frontal armor, but it can sure punch through the top armor in top-attack mode.
Basically, if I was UC Raytheon, I’d be working on programming my anti-armor missiles to hit lighter-armored parts like joints. I imagine a mobility kill on an MS will be just as good as a mobility kill on a tank.
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Me taking your advice and going directly for the carrier
Also they strike me as more of a surprise tactic. Like they're so small you probably wouldn't notice them until it's too late if they were deployed ahead of time but after that first volley you know they're out and can plan around them, though its certainly still difficult managing such a wide array of angles
That would only work against the weakest funnel master.
Average ones would anticipate this and could wreck you in the process of getting close. Not to mention funnel masters tend to have strong suits and the skills to use them.
The Ace Jegan Vs Kshatriya is a bad example of what to do against even low tier funnel master. This is because like I said, funnel master's suits tend to be strong as well. The Ace Jegan got beat because of Kshatriya's own capability.
Which is why, like it or not, the best move against funnel masters is to try and destroy the funnels first. To assume that the funnel master is of low skill and can be easily dealt in melee would likely got you killed, and not the other way around.
Head Vulcans (or other similar weapons) seem to have a terrible track record for shooting down funnels, closing the distance decreases the options the funnel user has to just their melee weapons evening the playing field as much as possible.
In this case i die to their superior melee and not because of the funnels.
>In this case i die to their superior melee and not because of the funnels.
But the funnels force you to move to melee so it is a contributing factor in your defeat. Plus, again, that's assuming you would be able to get close (you are assuming the funnel master would remain stationary).
Take the Gadelaza for example. You think something that big would be an easy target to approach or even shoot from far...except that it moves freaking fast.
And that's assuming the funnel master couldn't shoot you down in close range as well.
There's just not that many people who can even use funnels. And they tend to be given the super prototypes that most pilots couldn't have competed with from the start.
Funnels also really change in how they work. Their very first application was to allow for BVR combat in the age of the minovsky particle, but now they're really just used for close combat.
I think that while there's countermeasures, they're probably not being focused on too hard on account of the rarity of funnel-capable suits and pilots.
What's the dudes name from ZZetta who refused to be wuss and relied on nothing but skill and lived to old age as a based oldtype?
As confirmed by others. The pilots name is Yazan. Dudes an OG.
Main problem with funnels and other psycommu drone weapons is that it takes a newtype a lot of experience and effort to use them effectively, since you are controlling several minature crafts in a 3d space taking to account not getting caught in the crossfire on their own mobile suits. Also, it is a manufacturing pain to make and calibrate those lost funnels back, look at the Kyshatria abandoning its funnel complement whilst being hastily repaired during the course of Unicorn.
It would be more resource efficient just to make MS with better capabilities like faster thrusters or more armor than making the effort to finding newtypes, training them and making purpuse built psycommu MS/MA.
ALICE says "Fleshbag, you are obsolete. For the Machine is Immortal."
All you need is a fast enough computer and an insane Oldtype pilot who thinks outside the box. I bet I can do Captain Ash's "Flashbang bukkake" to a Newtype and they won't be able to do a thing.
Give me mobile suit sized flashbangs and a Byarlant Custom Unit02 with extra engines, and I'll ruin a Newtypes day. And make them declare that giant flashbangs is a war crime and must be outlawed like Germans did in WW1 when they got pissy over the Trench Sweeper/Warcrime stick/Shotgun
Literally in the next scene the stark jegan forces the kshatriya into defence
Anti funnel missiles would also be a hard counter
There is likely training on how to deal with funnels too (focus the suit and keep it busy, and basically just pray that you aren’t against a super strong newtype)
There are ways of dealing with funnels but since they aren’t overly common even in late UC a lot of suits aren’t equipped with these measures
The **Quasi-Psycommu** system is a technology introduced in the anime [*Mobile Suit Gundam ZZ*](https://gundam.fandom.com/wiki/Mobile_Suit_Gundam_ZZ). It is a man-machine interface derived from the [Psycommu](https://gundam.fandom.com/wiki/Psycommu) system, designed for anyone (non-Newtypes specifically) to be able to use all-ranged attacks without the aptitude of [Newtypes](https://gundam.fandom.com/wiki/Newtypes) needed.
Not really, many of the Feds suit were designed to combat psycommu weaponary ( or at least that’s what the market company says). And funnel weapons aren’t that common in the field, only high class officer piloting jagd doga might be equipped with 2 or 3 funnels. Only specialized pilots like amuro or char or very dedicated new types receives funnels.
The stark Jegan was actually pretty strong against normal Zeon Nt weapons, it just got put against Kshytriya. I would say a stark jegan is pretty even against jagd doga due to its strong fire powers
While it is the case for Aces, newtypes were not Common enough to filed an entire army and the tech was too cumbersome and expensive to properly field an army... with one exception. Glemy Toto created an army of Mass Produced Qubeley's piloted by Puru Clones, the problem was these Mass Produced units relied entirely on their weapons and had significantly lower speed, acceleration, & maneuverability.
By the time of CCA there were only 4 mobile suits with Funnels (not counting the mobile armor), the 2 Jagd Doga's couldn't recharge their Funnels, and the Nu Gundam couldn't refuel the Fin Funnels. By the time of Unicorn we only had the Kshatriya and a single repaired Jagd Doga. After that we see the Penelope & Ξ Gundam where they are used as missiles instead of beam guns but that was basically the end of Mobile Suits with Funnels, with the miniaturization of Mobile Suits they stopped focusing on number if weapons and really focused on using Psycommu based systems for mobility & control.
Old-Types still have tricks like the Doven Wolf's i-comms which are functionally similar to bits or funnels. We see an early development of this tech on the Neue Ziel from 0083.
New-Types are rare. It is why children are drafted by Neo Zeon or other terrorist groups. It is also why Hamma Khan's Axis tried cloning. I think i heard a group later in the UC timeline used clones if Char for their military. Anything to try and keep up or level the playing field against Old-Types.
Oldtypes could never reliably compete with Newtypes on a 1 to 1 scale.
It’s only the most exceptional and skilled Oldtypes who could go up against Newtype pilots and live to tell about it. Funnels just made the situation worse for them
any of F90 SERIES biltz the carrier .
Even GPO 3 has potential to counter Funnels.(I-Field + missiles. )
Funnels are only useful for all out attack but utterly useless if you're not skilled.
Yazan is an exception of course, considering he’s commonly considered one of the best old type pilots. But even then, many of the Newtypes who can counter funnels did did so because they could sense them.
And with the right equipment anything is possible, but things like I-fields are very rare, and I don’t think funnels require a lot of skill to be effective just a lot to master them.
We literally get to the point where Turn A exists. Funnels is the turning point, but that is because it escalates to the point where we have Newtype controlled nanites that devour worlds. When your mobile suit can single handedly send civilization back to the stone age, there was no way to go back. Even in the argument that an Oldtype could compete, the technology for Newtypes were designed to become forces of nature.
I mean, considering funnels are not widespread because that would make the battle too chaotic. Only specialized fighters could use them, I'd say it doesn't matter in the big picture.
In the case of this scene, The Feds sent like...2 guys? Yeah, they needed a whole squadron to take down Kshatriya
New types are so overrated. Back in the 80s, funnels being mind controlled by new types was all the rage. Its 2024 now so an adaptive AI controlling funnels is all the more dangerous and likely don't you think?
Good point. That would limit their cooperating with the pilot and even each other. But, I could see AI funnels being useful in a fire-and-forget context. Designate a target, they swarm it, and return. In the meantime, that leaves the pilot to engage something else directly.
I mean, the funnels would work for like.. 10 minutes without an extra fuel source? I’m not saying to make the MS AI. Or just make them drones or something?
No, I think the really skilled oldsltypes would be fine
If they have a decent MS and had the brain to aim for the funnel user instead of the funnels directly, they could be fine as long as the newtype isn't TOO good
Not really the thing with the new type is that they are very rare so they would most likely be heavily outnumbered in every fight so while in a one one fight new type would win on question about it but in a larger battle new type would be at a disadvantage due to simply different level of firepower not to mention the mental strains on the new type pilot.
The way that new types usually get destroyed by old type pilots is that either the pilot is swarmed by an overwhelming number and firepower or sends a really good ace pilot/ a super anti new type MS and MA.
Something I wonder though, is whether or not the abundance of funnel based weapons was something of a waste in the long run? MS development would switch to faster, lighter armed suits, with gear that could block beams. Man/machine interface would be revealed as “not” the future, and I can’t help but wonder if it wouldn’t have been smarter to concentrate on basic MS improvement, instead of flashy weapons?
Maybe instead of saying Funnel based weapons, I should say “new type exclusive” tech?
Do they control the Funnels directly? Or do they interface with a unit in the main mobile suit that remotely controls the Funnels? Cause I'd it's the second option then a jammer could really mitigate that
You just have to gun for the mobile suit or mobile armor itself. It's how you mitigate their advantages. Newtypes or even Cyber (artificial) Newtypes are a battle rarity. You're more likely to face a good ace or another combatant in the battlefield.
I mean its not ideal, but were that ever the case, the research into the N.I.T.R.O. system would have continued.
Its not like it didnt show promise, sure it made you insane, but I believe it was much better than the EXAM system.
funnel basically turns a 1 v 1 battle into many v 1. If you have enough pilots to spare I fail to see how a single funnel is that much stronger then a ball, both are just floating guns.
To be fair, Oldtypes could never really compete against the Newtypes, Lalah could destroys a whole fleet with the Elmeth and Amuro was always a step ahead of other pilots in the OYW
Well it's a droid army vs Jedi kind of situation. Newtypes may have the advantage in individual battles, but there's too few of them to make a difference and they can still be overwhelmed.
No funnels were in use in UC 0120 to 0125. However.
Zabine Chareux abilities would say otherwise, Zabine being an oldtype able to go head to head with newtypes.
Compare it with x rounders in Gundam age, the age 2 dark hound, who's pilot wasn't an x rounder, which is there version of a new type, was able to take down the legilis, an x rounder piloted suit with energy funnels and then there's in Gundam x when the funnels of the bertigo are shot down, so funnels aren't necessarily a sure win
Not exactly. For a while, Banagher Links had a lot of trouble in combat and only survived because of the Gundam so it would depend on the Newtype's skill and experience with the Funnels. Even Amuro had trouble using them on his first try. Also, Newtypes aren't extremely abundant in the UC timeline(though they certainly have more than most) so the chances of an Oldtype encountering a Newtype was quite low.
I mean consider the next scene we see the Stark Jegan mitigate the funnels by gunning for the Kshatriya directly, I don't think oldtypes are completely defenseless against funnels. Funnels have existed since the OYW, due to factors like the rarity of Newtype pilots and the tech involved, oldtype pilots aren't going out of fashion anytime soon.
There are also levels amongst Newtypes - some Newtypes are far better at controlling funnels than others - eg Haman, Char and Amuro. Char tried the close combat tactic against Haman in Zeta and got absolutely wasted and nearly lost his life with Haman just using funnels and not even having to saber duel. While Char and Amuro in CCA are so good with funnels they were dogfighting each others' funnels in ways we've never seen before. Marida is actually at the lower end of the spectrum because she had to use saber against the Jegan pilot when the Jegan closed in. If anything it shows that the deciding factor is going to be on the pilot.
> Char tried the close combat tactic against Haman in Zeta That scene was absolutely brutal for Char, you can see it in his face. The Hyaku Shiki was totally outgunned & outclassed by the Qubeley.
Never understood why they never upgraded Char's mobile suit. Here you have a perfectly good Newtype Ace Pilot that struck fear into the hearts of the Federation, seems like the perfect candidate for a new super prototype (Delta Gundam anyone?) And you know it wouldn't be a waste of money because his whole schtick was being really hard to hit.
Half of it I could see was justifying the costs. There were multiple other theaters during the conflict, so if Quattro was good with what he had, and Camille was doing even better in the transition from the mk ii to Zeta, why spend more? The other I could imagine was just not giving Char THAT much power. For now, he was necessary to deal with the Titans and trying to keep Haman from making things worse in the Earthsphere.
The Delta Gundam failed in the simulations due to frame damage from transforming Thus it became the shiki as we know it until kamille found the plans and redesigned it a bit, 1 of the engineers saw it and took it to a Anaheim where we got the Zeta
Indeed, they gave us a very fair reason why the Delta couldn't be a thing at first. I just giving an example of a potential unit they could use for ~~Char~~ Quattro. If Anaheim can create the impractical ZZ Gundam and the absolutely bonkers Unicorn, I always assumed they could've worked backwards and used the data from the Zeta Gundam and Hyaku Shiki to improve the old Delta Gundam design much earlier to create a sort of midpoint between the Delta Gundam and Delta Plus.
Side lore indicates that Anaheim was preparing new units for Char, but he never returned to the AEUG after the Gryps War.
Any more info on this?
Here is at least one of the units. https://gundam.fandom.com/wiki/MSF-007_Gundam_Mk-III The Gundam Mk.III that was in development during the Gryps War had one unit slated (supposedly) for use by Char, specifically while he was Quattro Bajeena.
The hyaku shiki can be seen as a metaphor for chars character in that its flashy, is somewhat of a failure yet wants to be front and center but ultimately didn't live up to the expectations put upon it and fails hard trying to reach them
Holy shit dude, that was way too real. Yet so accurate. https://preview.redd.it/rblo7monpfkc1.png?width=1200&format=png&auto=webp&s=af514f88fe728b90f1f05868b45a135517a0bb1d
What are you talking about?? Clearly that was Quattro, not Char! They're completely different people, who don't resemble each other at all.
Victory is never decided by mobile suit performance alone. Nor by the skill of the pilot alone. The result itself is the only truth!
That isn't the case with aircraft. After WW1 the capabilities of the aircraft matters far more than the pilot. Pilots can only do so much to cover the weaknesses of the aircraft.
It's also incredibly ironic even within universe considering the uberbusted performance of the Aerial eclipse everyone else
Well it’s a good thing we’re not talking about real life aircraft and are instead talking about fictional machines of war where the rules are made up and the points don’t matter, and I was specifically referencing a very prominent quote from the most recent series of said fictional work as a fitting response to the previous commenter’s statement 🤓
Given that MS are basically aircraft, it isn't far from the truth...
https://preview.redd.it/lfu389w2wckc1.png?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=3dedbb1baf3e670e17a4819d9bc3ffc180288f60
Fraud jegan?!
Nah, JeGOAT
AS THE STRONGEST MS, JEGOAT, FOUGHT THE FRAUD, THE KSHATRIYA, HE BEGAN TO OPEN HIS DOMAIN MARIDA SHRUNK BACK IN FEAR, THEN THE JEGOAT PILOT SAID: "DAMN SLEEVES"
>factors like the rarity of Newtype pilots and the tech involved, oldtype pilots aren't going out of fashion anytime soon. This is the main thing. Funnels still require a Newtype to properly work in UC, and those guys are still crazy rare even by late UC. Speaking of which, I don't recall a lot of stuff with funnels in late UC in general. I'm sure there is stuff, but it felt like by CCA they were setting up funnels and the use thereof as the next step in MS design.
The Federation hides the existence of newtypes in Unicorn out of fear, they're in Victory and a bit in Crossbone (Judau leaves for Proxima Centauri in Victory Side story with a whole colony full of them). That with the loss of technology and knowledge later in UC makes them basically lost history
F91 would've likely brought them back into prominence had it had a proper series instead of a movie. NOT.Darth Vader was a Cyber Newtype and he had some seriously scary control over the Rafflesia. Had the Rafflesia actively engaged a Federation task force, it likely would've easily trashed anything it came into contact with. EDIT: Also, Judau leaving with a colony full of New types to go to ProxCen is totally how WH40K's early Golden Age of Technology Expansion Phase started. Gundam confirmed 40K prequel. (lol)
The Rafflesia did actually destroy an entire Federation fleet from the moon before Seabook and Cecily caught up with it.
>Judau leaves for Proxima Centauri in Victory Side story with a whole colony full of them Huh, never knew that. I knew he went out to Jupiter at the end of ZZ, doesn't he?
Yep, he makes a reappearance in the Crossbone series
I really need to go back and reread ceossbone. I think I read a little bit way back when, but now there are like six different books.
Drives Gump, What's left of ZZ. Still has the bitchin' head cannon.
Miniaturization of MS might have had something to do with it. It changed the way suits were built. Also the reintroduction of high fire rate machine guns along with beam machine guns being more common meant that suppressing and destroying funnles became easier. The only example of late UC funnles tech I remember being used was the Gengaozo's funnel-like backpack. Since I don't think the buzzsaws from f91 are newtype controlled. https://preview.redd.it/ahtmuehjidkc1.png?width=1000&format=png&auto=webp&s=1f945cd04e573b9186c509ae4b8d1ffb5c0ec09b
I wonder if beam shields also cut down on it. Funnels were great for cutting through armor, but I'd the enemy has a beam shield they might be far less useful.
If anything, Funnels would be great for circumventing beam shields. Super easy to flank the thing.
This, funnels were strong at first because they were fighting against fodder units with limited weaponry. But by the late UC even the grunt units are capable of dealing decent damage and have access to a number of weapons and defensive systems to fight against funnels. Of course a Newtype still has the advantage in a fight, but if enough Oldtypes combine their attacks they can overwhelm a regular Newtype pilot.
Yeah, Chaff and Air burst proximity based explosive weapons would do a number on funnels. Especially if the explosive weapons had a decently high rate of fire.
Newtypes become rarer between F91 and Victory because Judau took most of not all on a ship out of the solar system to colonize other planets so that Newtypes wouldn't be used for wars. Which becomes funnier since they are the most likely origin of the Turn X.
> those guys are still crazy rare even by late UC. huh pretty much everyone was a NT in victory, even Marvets child and karlman. I don't think there's a really good in universe reason for funnels not being common in F91 and victory anymore. Used to seem more like a move away from newtype magic before Unicorn and other stuff was animated. I just assumed Tomino was kind of done with it and wanted to move away from it.
But 90% of ms in victory are not NT ms.
That is correct but I'm not sure what you're trying to say. My post didn't suggest there would be a lot of NT Mobile suits
Yeah, there aren't a ton of newtypes. Most battles still seem to be fought with old fashioned grunts, we just get to see when the swoopy models come in and wreck shop with their funnels.
There are plenty of Oldtype pilots that are skilled enough to deal with funnels. For example given an up to date MS Yazan can easily avoid Funnels.
Yazan is a very rare outlier, though. Don't get me wrong, he's incredibly skilled as a pilot, but he's also very unique in his ability to seemingly take on just about anyone in his era by virtue of sheer reflex. It's like trying to take on Jedi in Star Wars, you HAVE to be at the apex when your opponent has Spidey-senses.
>It's like trying to take on Jedi in Star Wars, Correct. This is a perfect example. Most people would never try. They'll die immediately. But mandalorians, other skilled warriors, advanced droids, and more were capable of such.
Yazan was so good that he *almost* became a Newtype. The only reason he didn't is because he literally refused to become one when given the opportunity.
> For example given an up to date MS Yazan can easily avoid Funnels. I don't think there's anything to strictly suggest Yazan could easily avoid Funnels. Hell, I don't think he fights anyone with Funnels period in Zeta and the Newtypes that he does put up good showings against were on the weaker end of the spectrum. Emma's Mk. II and Char's Hyaku Shiki weren't Newtype use suits, only the Zeta was, and as soon as Kamille actually made use of the Zeta's NT abilities, he kinda walked over Yazan
Sure but that's assuming the opponent is not a skilled newtype with psychoframe which is used on that stage of UC. Char with his Dijeh literally played the Chimera corps and Yazan corps which consist of up to date custom suits with top notch oldtype pilot and cyber newtype. The only one that stand a chance are Johnny Ridden and Yazan in a 2 on 1 situation. And even then they are beaten in a flash after Char activates the Psychoframe.
I mean, Funnels are strong but all it takes is Heavy Armor, the right amount of Missiles or something that moves extremely fast. Wouldn't something like the GP03 with an I Field utterly wreck funnel suits?
The full dendrobiums status as a flying missile battery would probably negate funnels from the get go due to having superior area denial capabillity thanks to its never-ending stream of projectiles, multi-target engagement capabillity and the presence of an I-Field. Wich speaks to just how powerful properly build funnel suits are, in a "look what they need to mimic a fraction of our power", Since IIRC the Dendrobium rums entirely upon its computers, and no psychoframe or newtype abillities are present.
Entirely on the pilots skill along with the suit Kou barely managed against a mobile armors half system wired claws letalone actual incoms or actual funnels
Not really. Still depends on the funnel master's suit and pilot skill. Even though this is out of universe example, Rau Le Creuset in Providence wrecks Kira in Meteor+Freedom. Kira was spamming missles only for it to be shot down. If anything, Meteor was a hindrance to Kira because it makes him a larger target.
In breaker 4s campaign, I better be able to shove him in funnel suits, and him complement them lol.
You forgot the iField though. The GP03 had an iField whereas the METEORs were very vulnerable. Also, Rau is an edgecase since he didn't just have funnels, the Providence's DRAGOONs had multiple beam guns that can function as nets to trap incoming missiles which is rarely done by other funnels. If anything, I think Heavyarms IGEL or Sandrock Armadillo with the Missile addons would be good countermeasures since Micro Missiles do not have to be too powerful to destroy a funnel and the suits themselves have been shown to tank anything less than Mega Launchers.
>You forgot the iField though That's assuming the funnels remain the same, which in UC...they would remain the same. UC is actually the worst case to use for funnel strength example since they rarely evolve beyond being a gun or one time use missile. Edit: forgot there is Moon Gundam whose funnels are physical so it would have no problem against iFields. In Seed, although they don't have iField equivalent, they do the beam shield equivalent which, although the scope of protection is limited, protects from both of physical and beam attacks. And their DRAGOONS have the capability to pierce through such defense by being a beam missile. Should UC funnels encounter more iFielders, they likely would have evolved to be able to counter them. >since Micro Missiles do not have to be too powerful to destroy a funnel It might work against low tier funnel masters and pilots, but against aces that are shown able to destroy/evade missiles, their funnels also can shoot down missiles as well. As for invulnerability, that's not something most mobile suit can achieve.
Still, point stands. If only the top 10% of Enhanced Beings using remote weaponry can actually outclass some of the most basic countermeasures, then that means Upper end Oldtypes are not really that outclassed Vs. most off the shelf Enhanced pilots with ranged weapons.
But that's assuming oldtypes can carry the countermeasures and even enough of them. Missiles aren't standard in most mobile suits because of their limited number and that they tend to be susceptible to EC-like counter measures. And then the costs. Assuming that the side that don't have funnel master couldn't or refuse to make mobile armors to carry those missiles to counter them, they have to outfit their standard suits with those missiles. Assuming again, if they could outfit all of them. Trying to use missiles against them is like using a one time use funnel that has high chance of failing versus someone that has unlimited funnels.
That's assuming funnels are easy to replace too. Psycommu weapons arent cheap to begin with. End of the day, It's a bit more iffy for UC but for AUs, Anno Domini Haros with Rifle Bits and Shield Bits FTW. Oldtype Friendly and still able to function like a newtype.
That's why you use air burst proximity based explosives. Get them close to the funnel and they'll explode and destroy it. Especially if they have a fast flight speed like most anti-air armaments are designed to have.
I mean by late UC, funnels weren't really even a thing anymore.
because most of late UC MS lost the Psycommu tech because of Unicorn fiasco (hence why Narrative is needed to explained why Psycommu is becoming more like a taboo and totally make the world forgets about newtype alltogether) now they rely on firepower and speed alone because the advancement in the reactor
The F91 demonstrates the tech wasn't lost though. The F91 has a psycho-frame around the cockpit and essentially uses a more advanced NT-D system (bio-computer).
Bio-computer isn’t evolved from NT-D, it’s evolved from Bio-sensor first seen in zeta gundam which preceded psycommu systems. I wouldn’t say it’s a more advanced, it’s more of a separate branch of development
100% agree with this Bio Sensor is pretty much Computing + Newtype hax while Bio Computer is pretty much Computing + Analyzing
There were psycommu systems before Zeta. They had them in OG Gundam. They were just gigantic (i.e. Mobile armors and Zeong). So actually, psycommu (supposed we could call them "proto psycommus") predated the Bio Sensor tech. They weren't commonplace until Gryps Conflict and the onset of Neo Zeon War I (Haman). By that point Neo Zeon/Axis Zeon had perfected and downsized the psycommu tech to fit regular sized mobile suits (not so unlike when the computers that created the first nukes could fill a building, now our phones have more computing power). Going back to our earlier convo, always wanted to see/hear more about the Bio-Sensor System since it seemed to be largely forgotten after ZZ. Psycommu and Funnels are bad ass, but it seemed like with the Bio-Sensor powerful NTs like Kamille and Judau could overpower and defeat funnels fairly easily. I preferred that over the NTD myself. On a completely unrelated note, I want my Waverider version of a Bio-Sensor equipped Bawoo (Zeon's Zeta and I won't be convinced otherwise).
I meant to say psycho frame psychommu, because they served similar purposes as bio-sensor. I got too lazy and didn’t want to go back and fix it. But yeah, bio-sensor were cool. But they were impractical cause only the most powerful Newtype can bring out their full potential compare to psychoframe
Ah, yes, touché. That is also why I found the quasipsycommu in Neue Ziel and Doven Wolf so interesting. Leveled the playing field for Oldtypes and Newtypes IMO. Would have been cool to see Psycoframe get more deep dive in series format. I don't feel like Unicorn (I haven't seen Gundam NT yet) touched on it any. UC Gundam seems to have a habit of leaving out key points of discussion for the tech.
Y'know, I don't ever remember them mentioning the Bio Sensor in Zeta. I only remember reading about it in the MS stats for Zeta Gundam and ZZ Gundam.
Lol, me neither, when I watched zeta, I thought it was all the souls of the women (and Katz) just entered and possessed zeta. I just later learned it’s was being hosted by the bio-sensor
F91 Psychoframe isn't use as intended because they lost the know how of it even Gundam and Newtype concept is gone at that time (putting the head armor of F91 and someone said "wait isn't that thing used to be called a Gundam" and somebody asked "what is a Gundam" clearly stated that Government doesn't want public to know the existence of those MS even though they have a Guntank as museum piece but not a single info on Gundam) Bio Computer and NT-D is a different thing all together and you cannot said one is more advanced than the other Bio Computer is more like a System (similar to Zero System in Wing) which calculates and gives input and output for the pilot, hence Pilot with newtype aptitude is able to take in more data while NT-D is an OS similar how EXAM, HADES, NITRO, Offense Mode and Demon Blade is deployed and it required to work in tandem with Newtype and Psychoframe hell Even the tech is downgraded much more in the G-Saviour if we talk more into the future its pretty long years that UC got into upgraded tech such as Nanomachine and FTL travel in Mad Wang (probably the year that they start concepting Turn Units because of the technology and weird weird design, also by that time there's no trace of the word "Gundam")
There’s also some psychoframe adjacent tech in Crossbone.
TBH it should have been, but it wasn't. The great thing about funnels is they let you attack from a range beyond what other MS or ships can (because minovsky particles). But they hardly ever use them like that. Marida did it once with the Kshatriya, and Lalah used the Elmeth's bits that way, but every other time the pilots keep their funnels swarming around near their MS. Funnels should be terrifying. A beam coming out of nowhere to perfectly pierce your most vulnerable point. Even if you shoot down the funnel you don't know where the operator is. They could be a mile away! Like a sniper who can bend shots around corners. But I guess most newtypes just don't put out psycho-waves that can reach that far? Who knows.
It's probably more exhausting for the pilot to shoot from farther ranges. If i remember correctly Lalah gets exhausted after taking out a few ships when testing the Elmeth.
i think they have a more practical application as multi directional or engaging multiple targets at once within visual range. long range attacks only go so far when the whole battlefield knows you’re there
Actually, that's the difference between the Elmeth's bits and standard funnels: Bits have their own power generator. Funnels don't and have to return to their home mobile weapon to recharge.
Problem would probably be fuel or some sort, the funnels would have to be having some beefy generator and propellant for BVR strikes assuming they could connect to those funnels
Yeah to be fair each of the Elmeth's bits was like the size of a mobile suit's torso. Most funnels are pretty small, like two or three meters longs, so I guess it makes sense that they can't go further.
Funnels are advantageous because Minovsky Particles made them hard to detect in a cluttered battlefield and because mobile suits pre-F90 were still floating rocks in space for the most part. Once space mobility reached much higher speeds, funnels effectively disappeared from the battlefield. The strongest mobile weapon in the Zanscare War was the fastest Gundam to have ever been produced with what was effectively two huge beam exhausts on its sides slicing and dicing enemies as it darts across the battlefield. edit: We also see this obsolescence in AUs, where remote weaponry is overcome by raising the bar for high performance mobile weapons. Rau Le Creuset was famously defeated by Kira Yamato due to his over reliance on the analogous DRAGOONs in SEED. This dynamic was repeated most recently when Suletta Mercury piloted the Caliburn Gundam and survived the Quiet Zero gauntlet.
Tbh I don’t think Eri was aiming at killing Suletta. She just wanted her to go away. It might be controversial but if Eri fought to kill I think she would have beaten Suletta.
And uh, how do you think she was going to make Suletta go away? I really don't think the tanuki was just going to give up as long as Calibarn was still operational.
Make Calibarn inactive by destroying the limbs without destroying the mobile suit. It’s a possible feat as Guel managed to on Shaddiq.
The thing is, I'm pretty sure that's actually harder than just aiming center of mass. Unless that's your point?
Yeah I think that's the point. The whole quiet zero battle is a two people (well actually a lot of people) trying very hard to not kill each other in suits that then to be kind of explody (unless you spray them with whip cream or something).
I like how they introduce the "don't explode" gun in the last episode. Those probably could have saved some lives earlier. (iirc, it shot like gel balls or something. I think it was the last episode)
It became harder for regular old type pilots to fight new types but when the biocomputers started being installed new types started to lose all their advantages.
F90 on his way to biltz haman.
You do know that that scene ends with marida almost getting bodied by a Jegan right?
Yeah, the I-field saved her.
I don't think it was the I-Field, just that the Kastrycia had such a huge thrust advantage over the Jegan that it could accelerate backwards faster than the Jegan forwards at full charge. You see the thrusters on the pedals flaring just before he hits her.
No it didn't lol. Did you even watch Unicorn?
What do you think blocked the Stark Jegan's beam saber then? That was the I-Field.
https://preview.redd.it/9i94v85c8dkc1.jpeg?width=2340&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=413c21d39fcac786bc091bf5701331cc207af2d2
https://youtu.be/qc6ME9S_qps?si=yoncsitxIekQpM47&t=2m34s Still looks like I-Field impact to me.
She engaged her verniers right before impact and blew the Jegan off course
She engaged her thrusters
Thrusters don't block beam weaponry. You can see the beam affected by the shield.
https://preview.redd.it/9brllcpi8dkc1.png?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=5a4ef2f72176f2f81be404c8b3ea5c9b0df100eb THRUSTERS
Its great, except you have the problem of numbers. Newtype isn't exactly common, where as old type is... numerous to say the least. Your Kshatriya can clown on 3 Jegans, but if there was 100, you're gona have to plot armor the shit out of the bell pepper to make it work. And also, I-field pretty much completely negates Funnels.
Gpo3 unironically stomps pretty much any funnels-based ms if the pilot is skilled.
Newtypes that can use funnels are fairly rare. That being said a skilled pilot can still deal with funnels. the Jegan in that very scene nearly takes out the Kshatriya.
Funnels are strictly beam based, aren't they? A countermeasure would be something similar to the Unicorn's shield, which is not only a shield but has an I field Generator. The thing about Newtypes and Funnels is that they're more emotion/impulse based rather than about precision or fine control. IIRC in CCA Gyunei has his funnels "target the missiles with the highest energy signature". As cheesy as it sounds, all one would need to do was to fluster/troll the Newtype Pilot so they can't concentrate/use the Funnels effectively.
They aren’t necessarily. Xi and Penelope both have funnels but they are missle funnels. Yes the are just regular missles but with better tracking but still.
You can also have funnels loaded with ballistic weapons. They can't be active for as long due to only being able to carry a small amount of ammunition, but you could equip a funnel with ballistic weaponry.
Funnels are so strong only because your average MS pilot doesn't know that you should ignore them and gun straight for the funnel carrier. Overall funnels are just another tool for the pilot to use with both its uses and weaknesses.
Going straight for the carrier always confused me, especially in a one-on-one duel. It's literally a huge gamble, since the funnels can shoot you from literally anywhere, and it's not like the person controlling them doesn't know exactly where you are. It works in the series, but it's always seemed like a major plot contrivance to me. You'd have to be a pretty decent Newtype just to be able to evade the funnels' attacks, it'd be like trying to dodge a swarm of hornets with guns after you kicked their nest. Good friggin' luck.
Well in the case of the Stark Jegan, he opened fire on the kshatriya first, this momentarily distracts Marida before he goes in for the melee. Of course as you say it is a gamble, as it depends on the skill level of the funnel equip MS as well.
Funnels don't teleport and not exactly precise, Humans aren't meant to control 8+ limbs, so commands are probably "hazy", which is why in the show, when S.Jegan Ejected, his equipment attracted fire. Also, once you escape the "surrounded by funnel" zone and is shooting straight for the carrier, firing funnels at the target's back also means any beam missed could also hit you, not exactly something you want to do.
Yea but this is because it's Marida. It probably won't work if you faced Haman, Amuro, or Char.
Newtypes are pretty far beyond human, so trying to say they can't do something because a human can't is a stretch. They don't even tell us how direct the control is from the Newtype to the bit/funnel. Is it an order given and the bit autonomously carries it out until a new one is issued? Is it a constant state of focus, having to control every little aspect? We can't know how much of a strain it is on the Newtype. That "probably" is carrying a bit too much for me to take that explanation. Sounds closer to headcanon than actual canon. I agree that flying head first at the source of the bits/funnels is the best tactic, I just find it surprising how often it works. It doesn't seem like something that would have even a fair chance of succeeding. The bits are FAR faster than the MS are, so calling them back to the mother unit, making a circle and focus-firing the charger would pretty quickly end that engagement.
Funnels don't have perfect accuracy and even if they did their beams tend to overpenetrate the target. If the carrier used funnels on a target within melee range the risk of hitting yourself is pretty high.
That's making the big assumption the target can *get* to melee range. Lalah isn't the best example of a newtype (she was a pretty powerful one as I understand it), but she was able to control her funnels from so far away her big ass mobile armor wasn't even detectable by radar during the testing of the Elmeth. That's... a LOT of range. Generally measured in miles. With enhanced tech, the range would be increased and the required input would be decreased. That's how tech grows. And given the rate of technological growth in the UC... I find it really hard to believe that small of a group of enemies would be able to present any kind of threat to an even moderately powerful newtype. Like I said, I know how it played out, but it seems more like a plot contrivance than how it should have actually gone.
It should also bear mentioning that the Elmeth used *bits*, each of which had its own onboard reactor. IIRC Funnels, unlike bits, generally do not have their own independent power source, requiring them to periodically return to the carrier MS to recharge. This is going to negatively impact the ability to strike from very long range. Off the top of my head, the only MS I can recall whose "funnels" had their own power source was Amuro's *v* Gundam
Aside from what other people have said? Funnels are usually *tiny*—or, if nothing else, still much smaller and faster than whatever is carrying them. You're still running long odds but going after the carrier is a hell of a lot more likely to work than trying to swat *all* of those little bastards out of the sky before they can get to you. Remember that unlike manned units or swarms of insects, funnels should just *stop working* if you can kill their carrier or even just distract the pilot badly enough.
its to make the newtype pilot focus on maneuver instead on controlling the funnel, only a few very skilled newtype can control funnel effectively while maintaining offensive or defensive maneuver, and getting close to the newtype mobile suit would make them risk misfiring on themself if their funnel control are not precise enough
It only works if the New type isn't skilled enough, if it's Haman she would probably grab the Jegan and zero distance blast it with funnels while completely missing the Quebeley (EXVS ult attack) It also wouldn't work if the funnel machine just keep its distance which is 99% the way shooting mechs fight in video games or bait you into closing in
I remember in SDGO I played a Gunbarrel, a bottom tier unit with funnels, and was battling a Impulse, which was a fairly high tier unit (tier C vs tier A) that was mostly melee with some decent ranged, and I just *obliterated* them.
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I mean, hiding in cover and using drones was essentially what the Elmeth did. I always found it odd that they shifted *away* from that tactic, rather than leaning more into it. Admittedly, it'd be pretty boring to watch, so I guess servicing the needs of the medium? But then in SEED Destiny (IIRC) there were a couple of battles where it was essentially bits vs bits (DRAGOONs vs DRAGOONs?) and yeah, it was boring as heck to watch xD
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Thunderbolt isn't canon UC, that's why it's usually not brought into UC type discussions. And IIRC in Igloo the anti-MS infantry teams got absolutely decimated unless they had a ton of ambush prep time. In an active battle, not so much. Not sure how canon THAT'S considered to be, but there ya go xD I'm not entirely sure how they think a portable anti-MS weapon a human can carry will be more effective against an MS than, you know, anti-MS weaponry an MS can carry, but needs must, neh? x3
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My point is a LAW (light anti-tank weapon) is about 66mm, while the vulcans (arguably the most useless weapon in Gundam) are rapid fire 60mm cannons. I find it hard to believe that any number of LAW type weapons are going to seriously impact something that vulcans can barely scratch. Even a stinger missile is 70mm, whereas the Zaku Machine Gun is friggin' 120mm. If the anti-MS weapons that a MS can carry have trouble damaging MS, what chance to anti-MS weapons that a person carries have? 08th MS team has that situation happening, but it's not exactly consistent on how effective weapons are. A human suffered no ill effects from the turbulence caused by a 120mm round passing by, very near to muzzle velocity and probably breaking the sound barrier.
A Javelin may or may not have the ability to defeat an MBT’s frontal armor, but it can sure punch through the top armor in top-attack mode. Basically, if I was UC Raytheon, I’d be working on programming my anti-armor missiles to hit lighter-armored parts like joints. I imagine a mobility kill on an MS will be just as good as a mobility kill on a tank.
https://preview.redd.it/uqc7lejoqekc1.jpeg?width=2280&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=590c72bdf42e3c083a5a7b277fb61c564122f0fb Me taking your advice and going directly for the carrier
Also they strike me as more of a surprise tactic. Like they're so small you probably wouldn't notice them until it's too late if they were deployed ahead of time but after that first volley you know they're out and can plan around them, though its certainly still difficult managing such a wide array of angles
That would only work against the weakest funnel master. Average ones would anticipate this and could wreck you in the process of getting close. Not to mention funnel masters tend to have strong suits and the skills to use them. The Ace Jegan Vs Kshatriya is a bad example of what to do against even low tier funnel master. This is because like I said, funnel master's suits tend to be strong as well. The Ace Jegan got beat because of Kshatriya's own capability. Which is why, like it or not, the best move against funnel masters is to try and destroy the funnels first. To assume that the funnel master is of low skill and can be easily dealt in melee would likely got you killed, and not the other way around.
Head Vulcans (or other similar weapons) seem to have a terrible track record for shooting down funnels, closing the distance decreases the options the funnel user has to just their melee weapons evening the playing field as much as possible. In this case i die to their superior melee and not because of the funnels.
>In this case i die to their superior melee and not because of the funnels. But the funnels force you to move to melee so it is a contributing factor in your defeat. Plus, again, that's assuming you would be able to get close (you are assuming the funnel master would remain stationary). Take the Gadelaza for example. You think something that big would be an easy target to approach or even shoot from far...except that it moves freaking fast. And that's assuming the funnel master couldn't shoot you down in close range as well.
Oldtypes need to move ASAP and don't stay in the same position while trying to shoot the funnel just like our hero Stark Jegan
After the Laplace incident Psychommu technology was black-boxed.
Only psychoframe not psychommu.
When there's Oldtypes like Yazan running around, I don't think they're at all at a disadvantage as long as they're a skilled enough pilot.
There's just not that many people who can even use funnels. And they tend to be given the super prototypes that most pilots couldn't have competed with from the start. Funnels also really change in how they work. Their very first application was to allow for BVR combat in the age of the minovsky particle, but now they're really just used for close combat. I think that while there's countermeasures, they're probably not being focused on too hard on account of the rarity of funnel-capable suits and pilots.
What's the dudes name from ZZetta who refused to be wuss and relied on nothing but skill and lived to old age as a based oldtype? As confirmed by others. The pilots name is Yazan. Dudes an OG.
Are you talking about Yazan?
Yazan?
Main problem with funnels and other psycommu drone weapons is that it takes a newtype a lot of experience and effort to use them effectively, since you are controlling several minature crafts in a 3d space taking to account not getting caught in the crossfire on their own mobile suits. Also, it is a manufacturing pain to make and calibrate those lost funnels back, look at the Kyshatria abandoning its funnel complement whilst being hastily repaired during the course of Unicorn. It would be more resource efficient just to make MS with better capabilities like faster thrusters or more armor than making the effort to finding newtypes, training them and making purpuse built psycommu MS/MA.
ALICE says "Fleshbag, you are obsolete. For the Machine is Immortal." All you need is a fast enough computer and an insane Oldtype pilot who thinks outside the box. I bet I can do Captain Ash's "Flashbang bukkake" to a Newtype and they won't be able to do a thing. Give me mobile suit sized flashbangs and a Byarlant Custom Unit02 with extra engines, and I'll ruin a Newtypes day. And make them declare that giant flashbangs is a war crime and must be outlawed like Germans did in WW1 when they got pissy over the Trench Sweeper/Warcrime stick/Shotgun
Literally in the next scene the stark jegan forces the kshatriya into defence Anti funnel missiles would also be a hard counter There is likely training on how to deal with funnels too (focus the suit and keep it busy, and basically just pray that you aren’t against a super strong newtype) There are ways of dealing with funnels but since they aren’t overly common even in late UC a lot of suits aren’t equipped with these measures
Psycho jammer and literally novel version of unicorn counters them lmao.
Stark jegan pilot is disturbed by your lack of faith
The **Quasi-Psycommu** system is a technology introduced in the anime [*Mobile Suit Gundam ZZ*](https://gundam.fandom.com/wiki/Mobile_Suit_Gundam_ZZ). It is a man-machine interface derived from the [Psycommu](https://gundam.fandom.com/wiki/Psycommu) system, designed for anyone (non-Newtypes specifically) to be able to use all-ranged attacks without the aptitude of [Newtypes](https://gundam.fandom.com/wiki/Newtypes) needed.
Not really, many of the Feds suit were designed to combat psycommu weaponary ( or at least that’s what the market company says). And funnel weapons aren’t that common in the field, only high class officer piloting jagd doga might be equipped with 2 or 3 funnels. Only specialized pilots like amuro or char or very dedicated new types receives funnels.
The stark Jegan was actually pretty strong against normal Zeon Nt weapons, it just got put against Kshytriya. I would say a stark jegan is pretty even against jagd doga due to its strong fire powers
While it is the case for Aces, newtypes were not Common enough to filed an entire army and the tech was too cumbersome and expensive to properly field an army... with one exception. Glemy Toto created an army of Mass Produced Qubeley's piloted by Puru Clones, the problem was these Mass Produced units relied entirely on their weapons and had significantly lower speed, acceleration, & maneuverability. By the time of CCA there were only 4 mobile suits with Funnels (not counting the mobile armor), the 2 Jagd Doga's couldn't recharge their Funnels, and the Nu Gundam couldn't refuel the Fin Funnels. By the time of Unicorn we only had the Kshatriya and a single repaired Jagd Doga. After that we see the Penelope & Ξ Gundam where they are used as missiles instead of beam guns but that was basically the end of Mobile Suits with Funnels, with the miniaturization of Mobile Suits they stopped focusing on number if weapons and really focused on using Psycommu based systems for mobility & control.
Old-Types still have tricks like the Doven Wolf's i-comms which are functionally similar to bits or funnels. We see an early development of this tech on the Neue Ziel from 0083. New-Types are rare. It is why children are drafted by Neo Zeon or other terrorist groups. It is also why Hamma Khan's Axis tried cloning. I think i heard a group later in the UC timeline used clones if Char for their military. Anything to try and keep up or level the playing field against Old-Types.
Oldtypes could never reliably compete with Newtypes on a 1 to 1 scale. It’s only the most exceptional and skilled Oldtypes who could go up against Newtype pilots and live to tell about it. Funnels just made the situation worse for them
any of F90 SERIES biltz the carrier . Even GPO 3 has potential to counter Funnels.(I-Field + missiles. ) Funnels are only useful for all out attack but utterly useless if you're not skilled.
Yazan is an exception of course, considering he’s commonly considered one of the best old type pilots. But even then, many of the Newtypes who can counter funnels did did so because they could sense them. And with the right equipment anything is possible, but things like I-fields are very rare, and I don’t think funnels require a lot of skill to be effective just a lot to master them.
These are the kind of nerdy lore posts i visit the sub for
We literally get to the point where Turn A exists. Funnels is the turning point, but that is because it escalates to the point where we have Newtype controlled nanites that devour worlds. When your mobile suit can single handedly send civilization back to the stone age, there was no way to go back. Even in the argument that an Oldtype could compete, the technology for Newtypes were designed to become forces of nature.
I mean, considering funnels are not widespread because that would make the battle too chaotic. Only specialized fighters could use them, I'd say it doesn't matter in the big picture. In the case of this scene, The Feds sent like...2 guys? Yeah, they needed a whole squadron to take down Kshatriya
Just throw 3 sliver bullets and boom we wins.
I treat it like Star Wars and Order 66. Throw enough fodder at them and they'll die.
I'm personally not really a fan of the whole funnel thing, it feels like a cheap way to make somebody OP
then Psychojack happened
New types are so overrated. Back in the 80s, funnels being mind controlled by new types was all the rage. Its 2024 now so an adaptive AI controlling funnels is all the more dangerous and likely don't you think?
Why don’t they just make AI controlled funnels instead? I’ve always wondered.
Minovsky particles would stop any connection the ai could have with the ms pilot.
Good point. That would limit their cooperating with the pilot and even each other. But, I could see AI funnels being useful in a fire-and-forget context. Designate a target, they swarm it, and return. In the meantime, that leaves the pilot to engage something else directly.
You want the calamity war? Because that’s how you get the calamity war
I mean, the funnels would work for like.. 10 minutes without an extra fuel source? I’m not saying to make the MS AI. Or just make them drones or something?
No, I think the really skilled oldsltypes would be fine If they have a decent MS and had the brain to aim for the funnel user instead of the funnels directly, they could be fine as long as the newtype isn't TOO good
Not really the thing with the new type is that they are very rare so they would most likely be heavily outnumbered in every fight so while in a one one fight new type would win on question about it but in a larger battle new type would be at a disadvantage due to simply different level of firepower not to mention the mental strains on the new type pilot. The way that new types usually get destroyed by old type pilots is that either the pilot is swarmed by an overwhelming number and firepower or sends a really good ace pilot/ a super anti new type MS and MA.
Something I wonder though, is whether or not the abundance of funnel based weapons was something of a waste in the long run? MS development would switch to faster, lighter armed suits, with gear that could block beams. Man/machine interface would be revealed as “not” the future, and I can’t help but wonder if it wouldn’t have been smarter to concentrate on basic MS improvement, instead of flashy weapons? Maybe instead of saying Funnel based weapons, I should say “new type exclusive” tech?
On a 1-to-1 basis? Probably not. But when in nature is it ever a 1v1? There are a whole hell of a lot more 'oldtypes' than newtypes.
Which series is that gif from?
Believe this was Unicorn
Unicorn gundam ep 1 pretty much the first 5 min. Amazing series with 7 ep OVA.
I've watched the series, will have to watch again cuz I completely forgot 😅
Do they control the Funnels directly? Or do they interface with a unit in the main mobile suit that remotely controls the Funnels? Cause I'd it's the second option then a jammer could really mitigate that
*NITRO enters the chat*
You just have to gun for the mobile suit or mobile armor itself. It's how you mitigate their advantages. Newtypes or even Cyber (artificial) Newtypes are a battle rarity. You're more likely to face a good ace or another combatant in the battlefield.
I mean its not ideal, but were that ever the case, the research into the N.I.T.R.O. system would have continued. Its not like it didnt show promise, sure it made you insane, but I believe it was much better than the EXAM system.
funnel basically turns a 1 v 1 battle into many v 1. If you have enough pilots to spare I fail to see how a single funnel is that much stronger then a ball, both are just floating guns.
To be fair, Oldtypes could never really compete against the Newtypes, Lalah could destroys a whole fleet with the Elmeth and Amuro was always a step ahead of other pilots in the OYW
Tbh I’m surprised there isn’t any friendly fire with funnels
Oldtypes never could comepete with newtypes, the funnels are just a force multiplier.
Only if your unwilling to violate the Antarctic Treaty .
for every specialized funnel suit, i can give you a experienced squadron of grunts… sometimes two
Literally 20 seconds after this gif this sentiment gets disproven
The YAZAN can keep up
Well it's a droid army vs Jedi kind of situation. Newtypes may have the advantage in individual battles, but there's too few of them to make a difference and they can still be overwhelmed.
No funnels were in use in UC 0120 to 0125. However. Zabine Chareux abilities would say otherwise, Zabine being an oldtype able to go head to head with newtypes.
Not necessarily. INCOM weapons can give skilled Oldtypes a reasonable chance against a Newtype using funnels.
Compare it with x rounders in Gundam age, the age 2 dark hound, who's pilot wasn't an x rounder, which is there version of a new type, was able to take down the legilis, an x rounder piloted suit with energy funnels and then there's in Gundam x when the funnels of the bertigo are shot down, so funnels aren't necessarily a sure win
Not exactly. For a while, Banagher Links had a lot of trouble in combat and only survived because of the Gundam so it would depend on the Newtype's skill and experience with the Funnels. Even Amuro had trouble using them on his first try. Also, Newtypes aren't extremely abundant in the UC timeline(though they certainly have more than most) so the chances of an Oldtype encountering a Newtype was quite low.