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This is Leyton Hightower erasure. Leyton is going to turn the Hightower into a lazer gun and vaporize Euron, then transform the Hightower into a gundam to slay the kraken Euron summons
House Hightower also currently in 300AC has a Hightower Queen, a Hightower in the KG, Hightower as heir to Highgarden. Daenerys also considered them loyal which is a headscratcher because Leyton's granddaughter is Margaery, and they are allied with the Lannisters, so the likelihood they help her is low..
Considering Daenerys, she generally doesn’t knows shit about nothing when it comes to Westeros , so her info about Hightower loyalty being older then herself is understandable.
>House Hightower also currently in 300AC has a Hightower Queen
Who?
>House Hightower also currently in 300AC has a Hightower in the KG
Who?
>House Hightower also currently in 300AC has a Hightower as heir to Highgarden.
Who? Willas Tyrell is the heir to Highgarden.
Are you confusing the Hightowers with the Tyrells, mayhaps?
I never said they are Hightower-Tyrell as a hyphenate! I meant it more along the lines in agreement with the previous comment. Margaery and Loras both still have Hightower blood. That's all I meant by it.
The Tullys allied with Robb because the Starks and Tullys had an alliance with the marriage between Ned and Cat. But their children were Starks.
Cregan's mother was a Glover. No one refers to Cregan as a Stark/Glover hybrid. No, he's a Stark through and through
Yes they were starks but their family on the mothers side were tullys. That’s the entire reason houses do these marriage pacts, to join their houses and secure semi-permanent allies.
Yes. We all know the purpose of marriage in westeros. But no one identifies Robb or Arya as a Tully. They may have blood relations, but they are Starks. When Cat married into the family, she became a Stark. Hightower fans claiming ownership and credit of the Tyrells is just plain silly.
I know, her name is Alerie. But Margaery's name is Tyrell. Referring to her, Loras and Willas as Hightowers instead of Tyrells seems like a bit of a stretch to me. At least when one does it to claim the Hightowers are queens, Kingsguards and heirs to Highgarden in the main series.
Love how the Green Targaryens are considered Hightowers because they're bad and make the Hightowers look bad, but the Hightower Tyrells are considered Tyrells when they're good and would make the Hightowers look good.
Poeple have been doing this since day one of the fandom. I remember people saying Sansa isn't a Stark like her other siblings... Acting like the houses of GOT are like the school houses of Hogwarts
That's definitely not the case for most of the fandom, though. Viserys' children by Alicent are broadly viewed as Hightower usurpers - but they're as much Hightower as Margaery Tyrell. So either the Hightowers get to claim all of them, or none of them.
I can't speak for the rest of the fandom, most of them have this tribalistic team rivalry going on. But IMO the children Viserys and Alicent have together are 50/50 genetically, but Targaryen by Westerosi tradition. You belong to your father's house, and if you're a woman you will later belong to your husband's house. Take Catelyn as an example. She was Catelyn Tully, then Catelyn Stark. Never was she Catelyn Whent, even if her mother was Minisa Whent.
But it’s established in the book’s by their Whent blood, Catelyn’s children have claim to Harrenhal
It’s also unclear what state House Whent is in, but essentially if the main branch Hightowers fell into disrepute or get driven out Alicent’s children have legal claim to Oldtown and the Hightower
id argue theyre known as hightower usurpers bc it was very clear who was behind the usurping, otto and alicent, had aegon had his way he wouldve not been king and his entire family would be alive
It has probably more to do with alicent and otto being so dominant in their side and their children education, to the point there many peceive as more of Hightower than Targeryan. Furthermore the fact that they use color green to refer to themselves also doesnt help.
Alerie, on the other hand, had no where near as much influence on tyrell children, nor do we see them associating with hightover too much, if at all.
Well then by that logic the green kids aren’t Hightowers, which is a fact many here would not agree with, but oh well.
In all seriousness, they probably meant that the Tyrell kids are closely related to the Hightowers
I'm not on any team(except Team Grey Ghost), but IMO the green kids are Targaryen by Westerosi tradition, where you belong to your father's(and later husband's, if you're a woman) house. Genetically they're 50/50, though.
I still feel it's a bit of a stretch to claim the Hightowers have a queen, kingsguard and a heir to Highgarden in 300 AC. At least the way the poster worded it. If they'd said a queen, kingsguard and heir to Highgarden who's closely related to the Hightowers, I wouldn't have given it a second thought.
They're half Hightower, but I wouldn't call them Hightower just like I wouldn't call the green kids Hightowers. They're Tyrell and Targaryen, respectively
I hate when people call the green kids Hightower trying to imply they're not "real Targaryens"
I cannot stop thinking about this since watching the David lightbringer video about it.
« a distinctively un-valiryan architecture »
The numbers Masson what do they mean !?
Hightower, Five Forts, and Asshai were built by the Great Empire of the Dawn, which existed before the Long Night. Valyrian civilisation arose after the Long Night.
Hightowers may be older, but you've gotta admit going from herding sheep to conquering Essos on dragonback is one hell of a success story.
Of course then the Doom consumed it all, but go hard or go home is the High Valyrian motto.
It does and it doesn’t. Did Rome admit they ripped off the Greeks when they built the Roman Empire. Did north and South America admit there cities may be built on plundered land in 1930. Empires tend to cover inconvenient truths from their own history. Valyrians may have taken much from the dawn empire.
Romans didn't ripped off Greeks, their obsession to generate similarities between their gods came long after the Romans had developed their own culture and religion.
Dragons like eating sheep, hence live near by sheep, people keep sheep, people live near by dragons, people feed dragons , dragons begin to leave closer and so on. Domestication 101. It is known.
Empires tend to want cover up things that might undermine their supremacy. Especially since the Valyrians are a humanist empire so no legends of Valyrians being given dragons by gods. And a history of being the soldiers of a failed empire really doesn’t appeal that.
I would think that most empires would love to claim that they are just the successors of an ancient empire. At least a lot more than they would claim to being mere shepherds
Ngl a reason why the valyrians wouldn't want that connection might be rooted in not just the idea of being the soldiers of a vanquished empire but how they came into existence, please bear with my schizo thoughts. The valyrians or more accurately the dragonlords originated as chimeras breed from various beings; humans, little valyrian lemurs and possibly dragons who themselves are a mix of wyverns and fire wyrms. Perhaps they were a slave population employed by the various Gem Emperors in their various wars against other ancient civilisations(Deep ones? Eldritch Gods of Leng?) this abnormal origin might also explain there obsession with making their own chimeras in Goggosos as a prelude to making a army. Either way if my schizoid theory is correct such a origin being well known wouldn't yield good PR points for the Freehold
Rags to Riches.
But they end up losing power in the most naive of ways (infighting) precisely because they are new money.
Old money Hightowers would never let power slip their grasp so easily.
There's also the theory that Hightower was a colony of an empire that gave Valyrians their dragon and Hightowers are descendants of these colonists. That would mean their countrymen are the reason for Valyrian rise.
At the very least Hightowers (or whoever built their castle) controlled dragons before Valyria even existed
More like Maester Yendel, he thinks the Hightowers descend from seafarers who settled in a trading post in the Whispering Sound before the first Men got to Westeros, some of them Valyrians before they were "actually" Valyrians.
This would explain the fortress made of fused black stone the Hightowers inhabited before building the Hightower. That same stone is used in the walls of Volantis and the valyrian roads for example.
This will be a long one and I write it on my mobile phone, so sorry for typos and stuff.
There are some things that support this theory. For example there are two known structures that were made with dragonfire and are dated before Valyria existed (5 forts in northern Yi Ti and base of the Hightower castle) so it's almost certain there was a civilisation of Dragon riders before Valyria. Likely Great Empire of the Dawn, which was mentioned several times in lore and was located in the far east where Yi Ti and Shadowlads are today and built 5 Forts which would be impossible without dragons since they are made from melted stone.
Another thing that ties Valyrian dragonriders to them is Daenerys' hallucination in the books where she sees 'kings', presumably her ancestors, with different coloured eyes, which is strange since all Valyrians have purple eyes. Who didn't have purple eyes though were legendary emperors of the Great Empire that were known by specific colours that match the colours Daenerys saw in her vision. Last empress of Great Empire was 'amethyst empress' which is a matching colours to Valyrians. She lost a civil war to her brother that later caused the Long Night according to legends. Theory is that Valyrian dragonriders are descendants of the Amethyst Empress that fled the country.
There are also hints that you can reach Westeros from the West if you sail past Asshai through Saffron straits. Asshai was likely part of the Great Empire of the Dawn so it makes sense they would discover this route to Westeros. This would explain the strange location of Oldtown. Why is the oldest port and a city in Westeros located on the other side of the continent from other landmasses? Oldtown being created for Ships sailing across Sunset sea from and to Asshai would explain the location. Not to mention they have that old castle built with the use of dragons. This ties Hightower to the 5 Forts, only similar structure from the same period.
Daynes and even some characters that are likely related to Hightowers have 'Valyrian' features. These are two of the most ancient houses in that general region. It is confirmed Daynes do not have Valyrian descent. Them being descendants from the same ancient culture as Valyrian would explain it nicely imo. Another thing is that EVERY time Targaryen had a child with someone from that general region, the child looked fully Valyrian. Biggest example is Alicent. We know it's not extremely difficult to overwrite Targaryen features, but it never happened with people from Southwestern Westeros. That could suggest people from there have 'latent' Valyrians genes, but we do not have large enough sample tbf.
There is more, but this thing is long enough imo.
Don't get me wrong, I love asoif crackpot theories, but I view them as what they are: people entertaining themselves (or driving themselves crazy) between books. GRRM sprinkles in all kinds of little flavor bits into his lore, but anyone who thinks a brief aside 4 books back is going to turn out to dominate/be the key to the entire narrative isn't paying attention to how stories actually work. Foreshadowing is a thing that exists, but not every narrative gesture is foreshadowing: a lot are just vague brushstrokes that make the world feel bigger/deeper.
I do appreciate you taking the time to write it out. I've read many of these pieces before, but it's been a few years since I was deep in the deep theory stuff and I've forgotten a lot.
Yeah I don't think it's gonna be hugely important or anything. It's just cool explanation for several weird things in the story. I think this particular stuff could have been part of a dropped Asshai plot-line that had Dany sailing east and arriving to Westeros from the west. My idea is that there would have been an off-hand mention about 'yeah the route is possible. We have this ancient book about how ancient empire sailed from Asshai to their colony in Oldtown'. The Great Empire of the Dawn stuff could also be connected to some lore on White walkers, which is something I think we will definitely get. The other things are just logical consequences of this bit of lore building imo. Iz could also be a complete bullshit.
No one did. GRRM made it up. And that's the trouble with trying to treat lore deep dives like detective or archeological work: it just exists in one old man's head, and one who openly says he's winging it at that.
I'm not trying to be a killjoy. I adore these books, and I love when my brain swims around in this world he's created. But the answers aren't going to be something we can just deduce with careful enough analysis.
But to play along: I hope it's something along the lines of what the other person commented: some primordial ur-civilization from which the others sprang. I do like that he seems to play pretty fast and loose with whether there are real gods, or what might be the fountain for the supernatural elements.
I mean, they’re currently being led by a hermit who hasn’t left the castle in a decade and his mentally ill daughter with the Greyjoy forces breathing down their neck. I doubt Martin wants to cut Euron’s reign of terror short and if he ever finishes the book, their odds aren’t looking too good.
You forgot to mention the old dude and his daughter are rumoured to be studying magic inside the tower made out of Blackstone and with the coming of dragons magic is becoming more powerful.
The books are full of mystery.
And everyone has a secret.
Wish the show had more of that.
Some characters have multiple aliases, and many of them are never confirmed besides the hints we get about similar appearances or features.
Like a medieval fantasy version of Pretty Little Liars.
>and if he ever finishes the book, their odds aren't looking too good.
Well, you see, the book isn't going to be finished, meaning that the Hightowers are safe, because Euron attacking Oldtown will never be written. All part of the Hightowers' master plan.
How’s house Targaryen doing though? Dany has been sharting in the grass for 14 years and counting while Jon Snow was btfo by a professional spoon counter.
The most successful Targaryen is a fucking Blackfyre lmao
Daenerys became Queen in her own right due to her own wits and adaptability and capacity to learn and compassion. As it is, enslaved people in other City States are preparing for their own revolutions thanks to being inspired by her and because she managed to hold the Sons of the Harpy at bay in spite of them trying to kill her politically and through assassination.
For all that people like to harp on about realism and "deconstruction" you're all ignoring that the deconstruction did happen in the Meereen arc. As in, Daenerys and Jon are foils: she compromised too much with people who would never treat with her in good faith because they want to bring slavery back, meaning that she needs to be harsher and be willing to escalate right back and even take away the riches of the main slaver families since they fund the Sons of the Harpy and instead use it on her people. Jon is the opposite, he listens but is very "my way or the highway" and he needed to learn the opposite, which might happen when he resurrects (or people are scared and face the consequences of their own choices and fall in line). Jon and Daenerys' time as leaders was the deconstruction of "Aragorn's tax policies" and the next book is about the reconstruction where they take what they learn and apply it, thanks to the help of magic.
F!Aegon has not done anything of note for himself and has not actually managed people. As it is, the Golden Company are already doing what they want and Arianne already has her hackles up around them, even when she should be predisposed to see them as allies. F!Aegon is taking Tyrion's bad advice seriously and behaved like such a spoiled brat that Tyrion was reminded of Joffrey.
This is such a weird take considering Maegor the Cruel, Aegon IV who is Rhaenyra’s grandson, Aerys II, and plenty of other Targaryen men are, in fact, serial rapists, kinslayers, and usurpers.
A lot to unpack here.
- Serial Rapists? What character gets raped by a Hightower? A TARGARYEN rapes a woman and is then immediately admonished by his hightower mother.
- Kinslaying? The whole fucking war is about Kinslaying. What do you think Rhaenyra would have done if she caught Aegon?
- Also, again, Aegon isn't a hightower, he's a Targaryen. Show me a hightower who is a Kinslayer
- Usurpers? The argument in favour of Rhaenyra (perogative) sound. The argument in favour of Aegon (precedent) is also sound. It's not usurpation, it's pressing a claim (which was resoundingly accepted by history.)
What you're describing here is actually House Targaryen. Aegon Usurped the Kings of Westeros, Maegor usurped Aenys, Jaehaerys usurped Aerea. Maegor tortured Viserys and killed Aegon the Uncrowned.
Even if this were true, they would still only be one part of house Hightower, not the whole house. I can guarantee you the Targs have had more bad eggs throughout their history (As far as we know).
you know what your kinda right. the westerosi have such long stong dynasties compared to the valyrians its kinda strange the valyrians are seen as these elf like beings. I really want a scene about it.
some stark: my house has stood here before your ancestors where shepherds under the long summer. Before dragon riders, stark watched on the wall, before the freehold, we where ancient, before your doom we where here. we will be here long after valyria's flame burns out.
This is why it tickles me whenever people are like, "The important thing is that Rhaenyra's pure Targaryen bloodline lives on. ☺"
Damn, what a victory, having your pure, perfect bloodline oversee the extinction of dragons, the Blackfyre rebellions, the fire at Summerhall, Mad King Aerys, Rhaegar 'I'm the Main Character' Targaryen, Robert's Rebellion and the ousting of Targaryens from power, the Beggar King selling his sister to the Dothraki, and then that sister engaging in a half-ass war of liberation in Slaver's Bay before abandoning them to fall back into chaos, bringing the Dothraki horde to Westeros, and then turning into dragon Hitler because people don't love her the way she assumed she was entitled to, before being unceremoniously murdered, and then the final surviving half-Targaryen renouncing his heritage and fucking off beyond the Wall rather than let anyone try to make him a Targaryen king. Good job, Rhaenyra and Daemon! You did it! You saved the bloodline!
Who would have thought that Targaryen supremacy is in-world propaganda used to subjugate others?? And that caring about bloodlines a lot usually leads people to commit atrocities??? 🤔
And even if you only care about the "pure Targaryen bloodline" (which is a pretty insane position to hold), then isn't Daenerys like half Blackwood anyway?
I think the problem lies with fans who *do* have the information of how the story goes and still cling to caring about special better-than-you bloodlines *like it's a good thing*.
And the Hightowers were the heroes that started the chain of events that ended up freeing Westeros from the control of Evil Targaryens. they deserve all the praise from causing such a wholesome event that caused the deaths many of men, women and children 👏 👏 👏
I'm not actually blaming Rhaenyra and Daemon, lmao. The joke is that fans tout, "Rhaenyra's most specialest bloodline is the one that survives, uwu!" as a victory, when the reality is that said bloodline ultimately led to multiple dumpster fires that culminated in the extinction of the Targaryen dynasty. If I were a Targaryen fetishist, I wouldn't count that as a win.
It is a victory when that was the entire point of the war. Whose bloodline gets to sit on the throne. The Dance of Dragons was going to have devastating effects on either side no matter who inherited. The remaining Targaryens (at least the ones being considered for ruling) had been a cripple and two heavily traumatized children. It’s also disingenuous to sit here and present only the bad of the Targaryen dynasty, when directly after Rhaenyra you have:
— Daeron I who conquered Dorne dragonless;
— Baelor I, who created a great sept for the faith, secured an alliance with Dorne, quelled their rebellions & was known for his love for the smallfolk at the detriment of his coffers;
— Viserys II, who would only reign a year while working as the king’s hand since Aegon III, but already made strides in holding the kingdom together, increasing trade with the East and improving upon Jaehaerys I’s laws
That isn’t counting the likes of Daeron II who had a largely very peaceful reign amidst the first of the Blackfyre rebellions, further integrating Dorne into the rest of the realm, or Aegon V, also famously known for his love for the smallfolk and his progressive policies (that would be rolled back by Tywin and the rest of the nobles because how dare anyone give a shit about a bunch of peasants, right?).
And even if we do take the show’s ending as canon for the books as well, they still all lead to Daenerys, who — and I say this as someone who doesn’t like her anymore than you probably do — *did* hatch three dragons all by herself, liberate slaves in the East, and then helped to save Westeros with two of those dragons within a fortnight.
I wouldn’t count that as a loss at all unless you’re expecting the story to end with Daenerys and Jon having magical babies together and reinstating the Targaryen dynasty. Rhaenyra’s blood was meant to lead to Azhor Ahai and save the world from the Others, and it did. That’s as close to a win as you’re going to get in a world like ASOIAF.
Daeron I who lost 10,000 men conquering Dorne, another 40-50,000 trying to keep it in the next three years, died losing it, and ultimately had Dorne brought into the Seven Kingdoms by a marriage pact by his successor, who walked all the way to Sunspear barefoot to atone for Daeron's conquest.
Baelor I who was convinced the gods would protect him and walked into a snake pit to rescue Aemond II, got bitten a bunch of times, had to be rescued by Aemond II himself, locked his sisters up in the Maidenvault to protect their purity, threw over a thousand sex workers and their children out of the city, drained his administration's treasury, burned books, and fasted himself to death to try and purge himself of lust.
Multiple generations carried on the back of poor Viserys II, tbh.
Ultimately though, I don't really think, "Well, they had a couple of pretty good kings, some delulu weirdos with terrible economic policies, and a couple of complete tyrannical maniacs who killed tens of thousands, tried and/or succeeded at blowing King's Landing to smithereens, etc. etc., so it all comes out in the wash!" breaks even. If you do... well, good for you, I guess.
(And speaking of being disingenuous: Daenerys birthed three dragons... and got two of them killed. Daenerys liberated the slaves... and then abandoned them to chaos and reconquest because she cared more about her throne than she did them. Daenerys saved the world... and then burned the most populous city on the continent to the ground, and promised to do the same to the rest of them if they did not kneel before her.)
If you count bloodlines as a victory, then you surely must account for the actions of said bloodline as well.
Tbf bloodlines matter to some fans, except when it comes to the velaryon succession.
I believe in Hightower supremacy 🤑
before HOTD i didnt really care about them, now they are in my top 3 fav houses
the more I learn about them the more I love them
one of the richest, most prestigious, influencial, oldest and mysterious houses in westeros 👽
and like this meme indicates, the longevity that this house had is impressive, they kept getting richer and richer no matter what
I also loved the new version of their sigil with the green fire 🐉
Targaryens are the main characters of the saga, of course they aren't to be boring and will go through various events. positive or negative
I will enjoy Daenerys rebuilding her dynasty in Meereen while you can enjoy Alerie in Westeros. Sounds fine to me
Sad how Targ stans have to cope by fantasizing over a happy ending that’s likely never to happen. There’s always fanfiction at least to sate these delusions…
Background charavters are still people. It's attitudes like this that lead to Targs not caring about the lives of smallfolk. Most evil house in the realm.
The are no main characters in asoiaf, Ned Stark ist main character of Book 1 but else... There are the big 5, a vague concept GRRM talked about in the late 90, who most likely are now enlarged by maybe 4 characters more.
Among them are Daenerys, a Targaryen, and Jon Snow, a bastard who's father is most likely Rhaegar Targaryen, but his mother is a Stark and Jon certainly feels more like a Stark and still is a bastard.
Dany gets shanked by jon even in the books.
George literally had dany have a vision where a „cold manhood“ gets thrust into her, giving that swords are often equivated with male genitalia, Dany will be strapped by an reforged ice.
No doubt jon won’t sit the Iron Throne either finally ending the direct Targaryen bloodline.
Nah, I'd argue that they're still quite important. Before Baelor the Blessed built the Great Sept of Baelor, Oldtown's Starry Sept was the center of the Faith of the Seven. It wasn't uncommon to have a Hightower Hight Septon (see Ceryse's uncle). And even after he built it, they still hold important ties to the Faith. Besides that, the Citadel is also in Oldtown, and they're patrons of the Maesters. And given how Maester Luwin and ~~Sarella~~ Alleras are rumored to be studying magic in an era where it's becoming increasingly more prevalent, that will probably build up to be very major.
And what importance does it have on main story? None
How Luwin and Alleras are connected to the Hightowers, other than living in the same city? Luwin is dead. Alleras actions are influenced by DAENERYS.
Lmao, everything I just said has an incredible impact on worldbuilding and lore. If there are not Maesters and a significantly weaker Faith, how do you think that pans out? Westeros looks almost completely different. You wouldn't even have Maesters. They also own the second largest port in Westeros and are the most powerful non lord paramount house in the Seven Kingdoms.
But fine: let's talk story and domino effects.
If the Faith is weaker and Ceryse's uncle isn't High Septon, she's never married to Maegor. If she's never married to Maegor, he potentially finds a fertile wife before Tyanna can potentially poison all of his other children. If he has children, the lords maybe don't abandon him and support him over Jaehaerys. And yes, before you say anything, I am tying the Targs into this because they were the ruling house at the time so obviously they'd play a role in this.
If the Faith is weaker, it's completely possibly that the Old Gods hold more influence in the South, which would completely change Northern-Southern dynamics and the way canon characters interact. Can you imagine a Catelyn who believed in the Old Gods?
If you don't have the Maesters, the limited knowledge that Westeros does have on education, health, research, etc, dies on the vine. In addition, Maester Luwin and Alleras also don't get the chance to study magic, which will, again, be crucial going forward.
If you don't have the Maesters, you don't have Pycelle to fuck around at court and help with Tywin's ambitions and sabatoge one, possibly two, kings.
Besides all this, here's something crucial: The Hightowers are clearly acknowledged as important to other characters in the world as well. Mace Tyrells' wife is a Hightower. Elia almost married one, before he accidentally 'broke wind.' If he hadn't, they very well might have married into another lord paranount house. People want to marry the Hightowers; they're good enough for a Lord Paramount and a princess of Dorne, and that speaks volumes.
Well fine, they are important and had a lot of impact on worldbuidling, but that wasn't my point.
Give an example of relevant character from Hightowers during the events of the main saga, who isn't dead or have only two lines of text.
They are important but pretty much irrelevant. They are tertiary characters, stays in the back, everything we know about them is said through other, more relevant character.
The main story is about the Great Houses, Starks, Lannisters, Targaryens, etc. Hightowers are background characters
Ah, okay I see. In that case, yes, I’ll acknowledge that. I think they’re shaping up to be more important as individual characters in Winds, but given the state of Winds, I think you’re going to be right forever lmao
They are background characters in the main story. The only Hightower we've actually met who had a few lines of dialogue was Mace's wife. And we never saw her again after Margery's wedding. The Dance was probably the only time that they were at the heart of court politics in Westeros. But after the war, it seems they went back to what they did best - Which is focus on trade and commerce. They're really not relevant characters in terms of their impact in the main books.
Whether they have more relevance in Winds, who knows. There's a good chance we'll likely never know, since I very much doubt Martin will ever finish the book.
Sure
I haven't seen any evidence of that. Especially funny when talking about vassal of other great house
Mind you that Hightower member with the most visibility in the saga is Alerie who have two lines of text to her. A background character, who fucks off back home soon after Margaery is married. So important, that she appeared in GOT, oh wait...
Ya know, someone once told Marlo Stanfield that the graveyard is full of people who wore the crown, I think the Targaryen response would echo Marlo’s: The point is they wore it
It's pretty funny because if you factor in the Great Empire of the Dawn than the dragon-blooded are much much older.
It's funny as well because in my fic, "The Rise of the New Empire," all of the Gods that the Andals, First Men, etc.. pray too are all from the GEOTD.
The Seven-Who-Are-One are the sons and daughters of Jacaerys Balaerys, the third son of the Amethyst Empress and the Bloodstone Emperor, and the God of Travel, Exploration, Flight, and Winged Death.
The Old Gods are all Gods of Nature from the GEOTD including Garth Greenhand who's the second son of the Amethyst Empress and the Bloodstone Emperor and the God of Trees, Fertility, Reproduction, and Blacksmithing.
Then there's the Valyrian Gods who are descended from Alyx Targaryen, the Founder of House Targaryen, the eldest son of the Amethyst Empress and the Bloodstone Emperor, alongside being the God, R'hllor, the God of Life, Fire, Shadow, and Combat.
I doubt it. They have history of fighting the white walker in ancient time, if they destined to be destroyed it would be against them. But we would most likelly never get the last book so...
Greyjoys are the ultimate lossers of westeros who get clapped by literally everyone. Even stannis defeated them. On paper the the reach has a way better army than Euron so unless he summons a kraken or something he's getting beaten or maybe he won't even wage a war and just go for the glass candle instead which is at the citadel.
Imao the "history is written by the victors" people forget that even in real life we have records of great conquerors and leaders in negative light, sometimes even by people close to them.
Even if the Maesters are sponsored by them it doesn't mean every recorded history would be biased. Even in real life we have several accounts from varying perspectives on rulers some highlighting their virtue while others painting them as complete monsters.
I don’t entirely buy the idea that the Hightowers are a cut above the rest (ie: not being first men and predating them). It’s pretty normal for historians employed by a noble family to embellish history, and this seems like a pretty big embellishment if you ask me.
Really? You don't see what the Hightowers, or any noble / royal family for that matter, could gain by embellishing their history?
What, you think all those stories about Westerosi families being descended from gods or having these unbroken kingdoms stretching back thousands of years are all real and true do you?
Maybe it'll help if I provide a real world example? European monarchs, such as Henry VIII of England, embellished their history by having scholars create family trees that tied them back to great rulers like Charlemagne and the Romans and, even, to God himself via Adam and Eve and other Biblical figures like Moses and Noah.
Why do you think that these real-life counterparts would do this? Are they true accounts or embellished?
It’s not like Westeros makes a big deal of the Hightowers having a slightly different origin. I doubt that it has anything to do with the power Hightowers have today.
I’m saying that they are not controlling the maesters, they are just living in the same town. If they did control them we would probably read less about the Green’s war crimes during the Dance.
The point of the meme is that the Hightowers have been a big jouse for a long time, I don’t see how misinformation about the house’s origin has anything to do with it.
Why would we see less of the Hightowers in the histories if they didn’t influence the writing of said history? As it stands the history of the civil war between the Targaryens involves the Hightowers quite a bit and in a manner that isn’t detrimental to them.
And I know what the point of the meme is, the thing I’m getting at is that from GRRM’s own words we shouldn’t take the histories of the Maesters at face value.
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This is Leyton Hightower erasure. Leyton is going to turn the Hightower into a lazer gun and vaporize Euron, then transform the Hightower into a gundam to slay the kraken Euron summons House Hightower also currently in 300AC has a Hightower Queen, a Hightower in the KG, Hightower as heir to Highgarden. Daenerys also considered them loyal which is a headscratcher because Leyton's granddaughter is Margaery, and they are allied with the Lannisters, so the likelihood they help her is low..
The Hightower is actually the Numidium.
**shivers in Aldmeris. Wait, 😳summer islands... summerset isles. Oh shit😱
You just CHIMed.
The Moth's are coming, and they are hungry.
MANTELLA NANOKA?
Why else are there no elves in grrm's work
**NO**
D R A G O N B R E A K
It is known
for a moment I began to think this might be r/TrueSTL
The crossover I didn’t know I wanted.
The Hightower is going to become LOTR'S Baradur with a fallen Maiar terrifying the realms of men from its beacon.
Euron is about to learn why Oldtown has stood firm for 10,000 years
Considering Daenerys, she generally doesn’t knows shit about nothing when it comes to Westeros , so her info about Hightower loyalty being older then herself is understandable.
fits perfectly, she does not actually know anything about Westeros.
>House Hightower also currently in 300AC has a Hightower Queen Who? >House Hightower also currently in 300AC has a Hightower in the KG Who? >House Hightower also currently in 300AC has a Hightower as heir to Highgarden. Who? Willas Tyrell is the heir to Highgarden. Are you confusing the Hightowers with the Tyrells, mayhaps?
Mace’s wife is a Hightower, if I recall correctly
Yes, he marries Alerie Hightower to form the combined house. Margaery and Loras are the issue of said combined house.
That’s not how that works, they’re Tyrells. No one called house Targaryen…house Targaryen-Blackwood when there was a Blackwood queen
I never said they are Hightower-Tyrell as a hyphenate! I meant it more along the lines in agreement with the previous comment. Margaery and Loras both still have Hightower blood. That's all I meant by it.
It’s like how the stark kids are half Tully, which is why the Tully’s allied with Rob in the war of the five kings.
The Tullys allied with Robb because the Starks and Tullys had an alliance with the marriage between Ned and Cat. But their children were Starks. Cregan's mother was a Glover. No one refers to Cregan as a Stark/Glover hybrid. No, he's a Stark through and through
Yes they were starks but their family on the mothers side were tullys. That’s the entire reason houses do these marriage pacts, to join their houses and secure semi-permanent allies.
Yes. We all know the purpose of marriage in westeros. But no one identifies Robb or Arya as a Tully. They may have blood relations, but they are Starks. When Cat married into the family, she became a Stark. Hightower fans claiming ownership and credit of the Tyrells is just plain silly.
I know, her name is Alerie. But Margaery's name is Tyrell. Referring to her, Loras and Willas as Hightowers instead of Tyrells seems like a bit of a stretch to me. At least when one does it to claim the Hightowers are queens, Kingsguards and heirs to Highgarden in the main series.
Love how the Green Targaryens are considered Hightowers because they're bad and make the Hightowers look bad, but the Hightower Tyrells are considered Tyrells when they're good and would make the Hightowers look good.
Poeple have been doing this since day one of the fandom. I remember people saying Sansa isn't a Stark like her other siblings... Acting like the houses of GOT are like the school houses of Hogwarts
I consider the children Viserys has with Alicent as Targaryens. Genetically they're 50/50, but by Westerosi tradition they're Targaryen.
That's definitely not the case for most of the fandom, though. Viserys' children by Alicent are broadly viewed as Hightower usurpers - but they're as much Hightower as Margaery Tyrell. So either the Hightowers get to claim all of them, or none of them.
I can't speak for the rest of the fandom, most of them have this tribalistic team rivalry going on. But IMO the children Viserys and Alicent have together are 50/50 genetically, but Targaryen by Westerosi tradition. You belong to your father's house, and if you're a woman you will later belong to your husband's house. Take Catelyn as an example. She was Catelyn Tully, then Catelyn Stark. Never was she Catelyn Whent, even if her mother was Minisa Whent.
But it’s established in the book’s by their Whent blood, Catelyn’s children have claim to Harrenhal It’s also unclear what state House Whent is in, but essentially if the main branch Hightowers fell into disrepute or get driven out Alicent’s children have legal claim to Oldtown and the Hightower
id argue theyre known as hightower usurpers bc it was very clear who was behind the usurping, otto and alicent, had aegon had his way he wouldve not been king and his entire family would be alive
It has probably more to do with alicent and otto being so dominant in their side and their children education, to the point there many peceive as more of Hightower than Targeryan. Furthermore the fact that they use color green to refer to themselves also doesnt help. Alerie, on the other hand, had no where near as much influence on tyrell children, nor do we see them associating with hightover too much, if at all.
Well then by that logic the green kids aren’t Hightowers, which is a fact many here would not agree with, but oh well. In all seriousness, they probably meant that the Tyrell kids are closely related to the Hightowers
I'm not on any team(except Team Grey Ghost), but IMO the green kids are Targaryen by Westerosi tradition, where you belong to your father's(and later husband's, if you're a woman) house. Genetically they're 50/50, though. I still feel it's a bit of a stretch to claim the Hightowers have a queen, kingsguard and a heir to Highgarden in 300 AC. At least the way the poster worded it. If they'd said a queen, kingsguard and heir to Highgarden who's closely related to the Hightowers, I wouldn't have given it a second thought.
Yeah, have to agree there, the wording was weird
Alerie, Mace’s wife, is a Hightower It’s one of those fun background plot details that seem to be building to something, if Winds ever comes out
This dude thinks the Tyrells are Hightowers.
Search up who Margaery's mother is
They're half Hightower, but I wouldn't call them Hightower just like I wouldn't call the green kids Hightowers. They're Tyrell and Targaryen, respectively I hate when people call the green kids Hightower trying to imply they're not "real Targaryens"
Green also Targaryen, why they call Hightower userper?
> transform the Hightower into a gundam to slay the kraken Euron summons Zeon mfs trying not to make an aquatic Mobile Suit (impossible)
I honestly think that in 5000 BC they were the same house. But this isn't /r/asoiaf so I won't get into detail.
The black stone foundation of the Hightower keeps me up at night.
I cannot stop thinking about this since watching the David lightbringer video about it. « a distinctively un-valiryan architecture » The numbers Masson what do they mean !?
Hightower, Five Forts, and Asshai were built by the Great Empire of the Dawn, which existed before the Long Night. Valyrian civilisation arose after the Long Night.
Hightowers may be older, but you've gotta admit going from herding sheep to conquering Essos on dragonback is one hell of a success story. Of course then the Doom consumed it all, but go hard or go home is the High Valyrian motto.
That’s to assume if the sheep herding theory is correct and not just a tale meant to hide the empire of the dawn connection.
If they are descendants of the GEOTD as Dany's dream implies only serves to makes them cooler
It does and it doesn’t. Did Rome admit they ripped off the Greeks when they built the Roman Empire. Did north and South America admit there cities may be built on plundered land in 1930. Empires tend to cover inconvenient truths from their own history. Valyrians may have taken much from the dawn empire.
The Romans were pretty explicit about copying the Greeks, to such an extent that "true" Romans complained about it.
"Captive Greece took captive her savage conquerer, and brought the arts to rustic Latium."
Romans didn't ripped off Greeks, their obsession to generate similarities between their gods came long after the Romans had developed their own culture and religion.
Dragons like eating sheep, hence live near by sheep, people keep sheep, people live near by dragons, people feed dragons , dragons begin to leave closer and so on. Domestication 101. It is known.
Why would the Valyrians want to hide that connection? If it actually did exist, it would have given them a lot more legitimacy for their conquests
Empires tend to want cover up things that might undermine their supremacy. Especially since the Valyrians are a humanist empire so no legends of Valyrians being given dragons by gods. And a history of being the soldiers of a failed empire really doesn’t appeal that.
I would think that most empires would love to claim that they are just the successors of an ancient empire. At least a lot more than they would claim to being mere shepherds
Ngl a reason why the valyrians wouldn't want that connection might be rooted in not just the idea of being the soldiers of a vanquished empire but how they came into existence, please bear with my schizo thoughts. The valyrians or more accurately the dragonlords originated as chimeras breed from various beings; humans, little valyrian lemurs and possibly dragons who themselves are a mix of wyverns and fire wyrms. Perhaps they were a slave population employed by the various Gem Emperors in their various wars against other ancient civilisations(Deep ones? Eldritch Gods of Leng?) this abnormal origin might also explain there obsession with making their own chimeras in Goggosos as a prelude to making a army. Either way if my schizoid theory is correct such a origin being well known wouldn't yield good PR points for the Freehold
This a good theory from what we know the valyrians were obsessed with blood magic
Still think they're escaped Experiments from Gorgai that reached Valyria.
Rags to Riches. But they end up losing power in the most naive of ways (infighting) precisely because they are new money. Old money Hightowers would never let power slip their grasp so easily.
High towers did a better job of recovering from tragedy
There's also the theory that Hightower was a colony of an empire that gave Valyrians their dragon and Hightowers are descendants of these colonists. That would mean their countrymen are the reason for Valyrian rise. At the very least Hightowers (or whoever built their castle) controlled dragons before Valyria even existed
That theory sounds like some ludicrous nonsense from someone with too much time on their hands
More like Maester Yendel, he thinks the Hightowers descend from seafarers who settled in a trading post in the Whispering Sound before the first Men got to Westeros, some of them Valyrians before they were "actually" Valyrians. This would explain the fortress made of fused black stone the Hightowers inhabited before building the Hightower. That same stone is used in the walls of Volantis and the valyrian roads for example.
This will be a long one and I write it on my mobile phone, so sorry for typos and stuff. There are some things that support this theory. For example there are two known structures that were made with dragonfire and are dated before Valyria existed (5 forts in northern Yi Ti and base of the Hightower castle) so it's almost certain there was a civilisation of Dragon riders before Valyria. Likely Great Empire of the Dawn, which was mentioned several times in lore and was located in the far east where Yi Ti and Shadowlads are today and built 5 Forts which would be impossible without dragons since they are made from melted stone. Another thing that ties Valyrian dragonriders to them is Daenerys' hallucination in the books where she sees 'kings', presumably her ancestors, with different coloured eyes, which is strange since all Valyrians have purple eyes. Who didn't have purple eyes though were legendary emperors of the Great Empire that were known by specific colours that match the colours Daenerys saw in her vision. Last empress of Great Empire was 'amethyst empress' which is a matching colours to Valyrians. She lost a civil war to her brother that later caused the Long Night according to legends. Theory is that Valyrian dragonriders are descendants of the Amethyst Empress that fled the country. There are also hints that you can reach Westeros from the West if you sail past Asshai through Saffron straits. Asshai was likely part of the Great Empire of the Dawn so it makes sense they would discover this route to Westeros. This would explain the strange location of Oldtown. Why is the oldest port and a city in Westeros located on the other side of the continent from other landmasses? Oldtown being created for Ships sailing across Sunset sea from and to Asshai would explain the location. Not to mention they have that old castle built with the use of dragons. This ties Hightower to the 5 Forts, only similar structure from the same period. Daynes and even some characters that are likely related to Hightowers have 'Valyrian' features. These are two of the most ancient houses in that general region. It is confirmed Daynes do not have Valyrian descent. Them being descendants from the same ancient culture as Valyrian would explain it nicely imo. Another thing is that EVERY time Targaryen had a child with someone from that general region, the child looked fully Valyrian. Biggest example is Alicent. We know it's not extremely difficult to overwrite Targaryen features, but it never happened with people from Southwestern Westeros. That could suggest people from there have 'latent' Valyrians genes, but we do not have large enough sample tbf. There is more, but this thing is long enough imo.
The fused stone resembles that of the stone made from Dragonfire, but that doesn't necessarily mean that it was made from dragonfire
It is a very strong possibility though.
Don't get me wrong, I love asoif crackpot theories, but I view them as what they are: people entertaining themselves (or driving themselves crazy) between books. GRRM sprinkles in all kinds of little flavor bits into his lore, but anyone who thinks a brief aside 4 books back is going to turn out to dominate/be the key to the entire narrative isn't paying attention to how stories actually work. Foreshadowing is a thing that exists, but not every narrative gesture is foreshadowing: a lot are just vague brushstrokes that make the world feel bigger/deeper. I do appreciate you taking the time to write it out. I've read many of these pieces before, but it's been a few years since I was deep in the deep theory stuff and I've forgotten a lot.
Yeah I don't think it's gonna be hugely important or anything. It's just cool explanation for several weird things in the story. I think this particular stuff could have been part of a dropped Asshai plot-line that had Dany sailing east and arriving to Westeros from the west. My idea is that there would have been an off-hand mention about 'yeah the route is possible. We have this ancient book about how ancient empire sailed from Asshai to their colony in Oldtown'. The Great Empire of the Dawn stuff could also be connected to some lore on White walkers, which is something I think we will definitely get. The other things are just logical consequences of this bit of lore building imo. Iz could also be a complete bullshit.
Who do you think built the Hightower?
No one did. GRRM made it up. And that's the trouble with trying to treat lore deep dives like detective or archeological work: it just exists in one old man's head, and one who openly says he's winging it at that. I'm not trying to be a killjoy. I adore these books, and I love when my brain swims around in this world he's created. But the answers aren't going to be something we can just deduce with careful enough analysis. But to play along: I hope it's something along the lines of what the other person commented: some primordial ur-civilization from which the others sprang. I do like that he seems to play pretty fast and loose with whether there are real gods, or what might be the fountain for the supernatural elements.
I mean, they’re currently being led by a hermit who hasn’t left the castle in a decade and his mentally ill daughter with the Greyjoy forces breathing down their neck. I doubt Martin wants to cut Euron’s reign of terror short and if he ever finishes the book, their odds aren’t looking too good.
The Hightower mecha will end eldritch euron
Actually the Hightower is just a landed spaceship and they'll simply fly away
They will start an orbital bombardment and turn the iron islands into the glass islands
You forgot to mention the old dude and his daughter are rumoured to be studying magic inside the tower made out of Blackstone and with the coming of dragons magic is becoming more powerful.
He will show those discount Vikings that they are not the only ones harnessing old magic
That’s just what leyton wants you to think, he’s just pretending to be a hermit with a mentally ill daughter so the euron will underestimate him.
The books are full of mystery. And everyone has a secret. Wish the show had more of that. Some characters have multiple aliases, and many of them are never confirmed besides the hints we get about similar appearances or features. Like a medieval fantasy version of Pretty Little Liars.
they're still prestigious so the meme stands
>and if he ever finishes the book, their odds aren't looking too good. Well, you see, the book isn't going to be finished, meaning that the Hightowers are safe, because Euron attacking Oldtown will never be written. All part of the Hightowers' master plan.
How’s house Targaryen doing though? Dany has been sharting in the grass for 14 years and counting while Jon Snow was btfo by a professional spoon counter. The most successful Targaryen is a fucking Blackfyre lmao
Thanks for making me laugh at my desk at work, now I gotta pretend like I was doing something other than redditing.
Daenerys became Queen in her own right due to her own wits and adaptability and capacity to learn and compassion. As it is, enslaved people in other City States are preparing for their own revolutions thanks to being inspired by her and because she managed to hold the Sons of the Harpy at bay in spite of them trying to kill her politically and through assassination. For all that people like to harp on about realism and "deconstruction" you're all ignoring that the deconstruction did happen in the Meereen arc. As in, Daenerys and Jon are foils: she compromised too much with people who would never treat with her in good faith because they want to bring slavery back, meaning that she needs to be harsher and be willing to escalate right back and even take away the riches of the main slaver families since they fund the Sons of the Harpy and instead use it on her people. Jon is the opposite, he listens but is very "my way or the highway" and he needed to learn the opposite, which might happen when he resurrects (or people are scared and face the consequences of their own choices and fall in line). Jon and Daenerys' time as leaders was the deconstruction of "Aragorn's tax policies" and the next book is about the reconstruction where they take what they learn and apply it, thanks to the help of magic. F!Aegon has not done anything of note for himself and has not actually managed people. As it is, the Golden Company are already doing what they want and Arianne already has her hackles up around them, even when she should be predisposed to see them as allies. F!Aegon is taking Tyrion's bad advice seriously and behaved like such a spoiled brat that Tyrion was reminded of Joffrey.
They will prevail. Trust
Hightower supremacy
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that's like 80% of westeros
Oh boy, don't look up Maegor the Cruel.
This is such a weird take considering Maegor the Cruel, Aegon IV who is Rhaenyra’s grandson, Aerys II, and plenty of other Targaryen men are, in fact, serial rapists, kinslayers, and usurpers.
I may have news for you on how feudal societies work.
A lot to unpack here. - Serial Rapists? What character gets raped by a Hightower? A TARGARYEN rapes a woman and is then immediately admonished by his hightower mother. - Kinslaying? The whole fucking war is about Kinslaying. What do you think Rhaenyra would have done if she caught Aegon? - Also, again, Aegon isn't a hightower, he's a Targaryen. Show me a hightower who is a Kinslayer - Usurpers? The argument in favour of Rhaenyra (perogative) sound. The argument in favour of Aegon (precedent) is also sound. It's not usurpation, it's pressing a claim (which was resoundingly accepted by history.) What you're describing here is actually House Targaryen. Aegon Usurped the Kings of Westeros, Maegor usurped Aenys, Jaehaerys usurped Aerea. Maegor tortured Viserys and killed Aegon the Uncrowned.
The current Hightowers don't have a single drop of blood from Aegon the usurper, so you're wrong
Yes, and? No house is perfect. Still Supremacy 🍾
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Even if this were true, they would still only be one part of house Hightower, not the whole house. I can guarantee you the Targs have had more bad eggs throughout their history (As far as we know).
you know what your kinda right. the westerosi have such long stong dynasties compared to the valyrians its kinda strange the valyrians are seen as these elf like beings. I really want a scene about it. some stark: my house has stood here before your ancestors where shepherds under the long summer. Before dragon riders, stark watched on the wall, before the freehold, we where ancient, before your doom we where here. we will be here long after valyria's flame burns out.
Well, that’s why they are named Hightower and not Lowtower
This is why it tickles me whenever people are like, "The important thing is that Rhaenyra's pure Targaryen bloodline lives on. ☺" Damn, what a victory, having your pure, perfect bloodline oversee the extinction of dragons, the Blackfyre rebellions, the fire at Summerhall, Mad King Aerys, Rhaegar 'I'm the Main Character' Targaryen, Robert's Rebellion and the ousting of Targaryens from power, the Beggar King selling his sister to the Dothraki, and then that sister engaging in a half-ass war of liberation in Slaver's Bay before abandoning them to fall back into chaos, bringing the Dothraki horde to Westeros, and then turning into dragon Hitler because people don't love her the way she assumed she was entitled to, before being unceremoniously murdered, and then the final surviving half-Targaryen renouncing his heritage and fucking off beyond the Wall rather than let anyone try to make him a Targaryen king. Good job, Rhaenyra and Daemon! You did it! You saved the bloodline!
Who would have thought that Targaryen supremacy is in-world propaganda used to subjugate others?? And that caring about bloodlines a lot usually leads people to commit atrocities??? 🤔 And even if you only care about the "pure Targaryen bloodline" (which is a pretty insane position to hold), then isn't Daenerys like half Blackwood anyway?
She's more Dornish than she is Valyrian.
“Turned into dragon hitler” is argue they’ve been dragon hitler since they started practicing incest to preserve the blonde haired Val-aryan genes.
You forgot Aegon IV.
All I can say is that you do the best you can with the information you have at the time.
I think the problem lies with fans who *do* have the information of how the story goes and still cling to caring about special better-than-you bloodlines *like it's a good thing*.
And the Hightowers were the heroes that started the chain of events that ended up freeing Westeros from the control of Evil Targaryens. they deserve all the praise from causing such a wholesome event that caused the deaths many of men, women and children 👏 👏 👏
Based.
A worthy price to pay for the extinction of the nukes.
It sure is a take to blame two people for the actions of their future 7 generations
I'm not actually blaming Rhaenyra and Daemon, lmao. The joke is that fans tout, "Rhaenyra's most specialest bloodline is the one that survives, uwu!" as a victory, when the reality is that said bloodline ultimately led to multiple dumpster fires that culminated in the extinction of the Targaryen dynasty. If I were a Targaryen fetishist, I wouldn't count that as a win.
It is a victory when that was the entire point of the war. Whose bloodline gets to sit on the throne. The Dance of Dragons was going to have devastating effects on either side no matter who inherited. The remaining Targaryens (at least the ones being considered for ruling) had been a cripple and two heavily traumatized children. It’s also disingenuous to sit here and present only the bad of the Targaryen dynasty, when directly after Rhaenyra you have: — Daeron I who conquered Dorne dragonless; — Baelor I, who created a great sept for the faith, secured an alliance with Dorne, quelled their rebellions & was known for his love for the smallfolk at the detriment of his coffers; — Viserys II, who would only reign a year while working as the king’s hand since Aegon III, but already made strides in holding the kingdom together, increasing trade with the East and improving upon Jaehaerys I’s laws That isn’t counting the likes of Daeron II who had a largely very peaceful reign amidst the first of the Blackfyre rebellions, further integrating Dorne into the rest of the realm, or Aegon V, also famously known for his love for the smallfolk and his progressive policies (that would be rolled back by Tywin and the rest of the nobles because how dare anyone give a shit about a bunch of peasants, right?). And even if we do take the show’s ending as canon for the books as well, they still all lead to Daenerys, who — and I say this as someone who doesn’t like her anymore than you probably do — *did* hatch three dragons all by herself, liberate slaves in the East, and then helped to save Westeros with two of those dragons within a fortnight. I wouldn’t count that as a loss at all unless you’re expecting the story to end with Daenerys and Jon having magical babies together and reinstating the Targaryen dynasty. Rhaenyra’s blood was meant to lead to Azhor Ahai and save the world from the Others, and it did. That’s as close to a win as you’re going to get in a world like ASOIAF.
Daeron I who lost 10,000 men conquering Dorne, another 40-50,000 trying to keep it in the next three years, died losing it, and ultimately had Dorne brought into the Seven Kingdoms by a marriage pact by his successor, who walked all the way to Sunspear barefoot to atone for Daeron's conquest. Baelor I who was convinced the gods would protect him and walked into a snake pit to rescue Aemond II, got bitten a bunch of times, had to be rescued by Aemond II himself, locked his sisters up in the Maidenvault to protect their purity, threw over a thousand sex workers and their children out of the city, drained his administration's treasury, burned books, and fasted himself to death to try and purge himself of lust. Multiple generations carried on the back of poor Viserys II, tbh. Ultimately though, I don't really think, "Well, they had a couple of pretty good kings, some delulu weirdos with terrible economic policies, and a couple of complete tyrannical maniacs who killed tens of thousands, tried and/or succeeded at blowing King's Landing to smithereens, etc. etc., so it all comes out in the wash!" breaks even. If you do... well, good for you, I guess. (And speaking of being disingenuous: Daenerys birthed three dragons... and got two of them killed. Daenerys liberated the slaves... and then abandoned them to chaos and reconquest because she cared more about her throne than she did them. Daenerys saved the world... and then burned the most populous city on the continent to the ground, and promised to do the same to the rest of them if they did not kneel before her.)
None of the ones you mentioned had as much impact on history as Aegon IV and Aerys II.
If you count bloodlines as a victory, then you surely must account for the actions of said bloodline as well. Tbf bloodlines matter to some fans, except when it comes to the velaryon succession.
Targs are nothing without the nukes. The most overrated house in the 7 kingdoms.
>The most overrated house in the 7 kingdoms. >Ruling monarchs for 300 years. Hmm 🤔
The others ruled for 1000s
1 singular kingdom yes.
Better than rule over 7 for a few centuries and get burnt to cinders one and all.
I believe in Hightower supremacy 🤑 before HOTD i didnt really care about them, now they are in my top 3 fav houses the more I learn about them the more I love them one of the richest, most prestigious, influencial, oldest and mysterious houses in westeros 👽 and like this meme indicates, the longevity that this house had is impressive, they kept getting richer and richer no matter what I also loved the new version of their sigil with the green fire 🐉
We Light The Way.
iconic
High towers: we recovered from past tragedies & will continue to play the long game
Mind you that Hightowers outside of the Dance are as relevant as Jaehaera and Helaena combined
And how did all that relevancy pay off for the Targaryens? Robert’s Rebellion? Disposed, despised and run out of their own Keep
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Yes, which makes that one quote all the more true. The only thing that can destroy the House of the Dragon is itself.
Targaryens are the main characters of the saga, of course they aren't to be boring and will go through various events. positive or negative I will enjoy Daenerys rebuilding her dynasty in Meereen while you can enjoy Alerie in Westeros. Sounds fine to me
I mean while I am team black it’s pretty clear in the books that the Starks are the main characters
Sad how Targ stans have to cope by fantasizing over a happy ending that’s likely never to happen. There’s always fanfiction at least to sate these delusions…
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Bro daenerys ends up dead and jon fucks off to the north denying his targaryen ancestry, i dont see that as a great victory for the targaryens tbh
Background charavters are still people. It's attitudes like this that lead to Targs not caring about the lives of smallfolk. Most evil house in the realm.
The are no main characters in asoiaf, Ned Stark ist main character of Book 1 but else... There are the big 5, a vague concept GRRM talked about in the late 90, who most likely are now enlarged by maybe 4 characters more. Among them are Daenerys, a Targaryen, and Jon Snow, a bastard who's father is most likely Rhaegar Targaryen, but his mother is a Stark and Jon certainly feels more like a Stark and still is a bastard.
Dany gets shanked by jon even in the books. George literally had dany have a vision where a „cold manhood“ gets thrust into her, giving that swords are often equivated with male genitalia, Dany will be strapped by an reforged ice. No doubt jon won’t sit the Iron Throne either finally ending the direct Targaryen bloodline.
Last time I checked, Jon is son of Rhaegar TARGARYEN
Jon is currently dead and a Snow/Waters, and I doubt fire-wights can procreate.
He's not a bastard though
Nah, I'd argue that they're still quite important. Before Baelor the Blessed built the Great Sept of Baelor, Oldtown's Starry Sept was the center of the Faith of the Seven. It wasn't uncommon to have a Hightower Hight Septon (see Ceryse's uncle). And even after he built it, they still hold important ties to the Faith. Besides that, the Citadel is also in Oldtown, and they're patrons of the Maesters. And given how Maester Luwin and ~~Sarella~~ Alleras are rumored to be studying magic in an era where it's becoming increasingly more prevalent, that will probably build up to be very major.
And what importance does it have on main story? None How Luwin and Alleras are connected to the Hightowers, other than living in the same city? Luwin is dead. Alleras actions are influenced by DAENERYS.
Lmao, everything I just said has an incredible impact on worldbuilding and lore. If there are not Maesters and a significantly weaker Faith, how do you think that pans out? Westeros looks almost completely different. You wouldn't even have Maesters. They also own the second largest port in Westeros and are the most powerful non lord paramount house in the Seven Kingdoms. But fine: let's talk story and domino effects. If the Faith is weaker and Ceryse's uncle isn't High Septon, she's never married to Maegor. If she's never married to Maegor, he potentially finds a fertile wife before Tyanna can potentially poison all of his other children. If he has children, the lords maybe don't abandon him and support him over Jaehaerys. And yes, before you say anything, I am tying the Targs into this because they were the ruling house at the time so obviously they'd play a role in this. If the Faith is weaker, it's completely possibly that the Old Gods hold more influence in the South, which would completely change Northern-Southern dynamics and the way canon characters interact. Can you imagine a Catelyn who believed in the Old Gods? If you don't have the Maesters, the limited knowledge that Westeros does have on education, health, research, etc, dies on the vine. In addition, Maester Luwin and Alleras also don't get the chance to study magic, which will, again, be crucial going forward. If you don't have the Maesters, you don't have Pycelle to fuck around at court and help with Tywin's ambitions and sabatoge one, possibly two, kings. Besides all this, here's something crucial: The Hightowers are clearly acknowledged as important to other characters in the world as well. Mace Tyrells' wife is a Hightower. Elia almost married one, before he accidentally 'broke wind.' If he hadn't, they very well might have married into another lord paranount house. People want to marry the Hightowers; they're good enough for a Lord Paramount and a princess of Dorne, and that speaks volumes.
Well fine, they are important and had a lot of impact on worldbuidling, but that wasn't my point. Give an example of relevant character from Hightowers during the events of the main saga, who isn't dead or have only two lines of text. They are important but pretty much irrelevant. They are tertiary characters, stays in the back, everything we know about them is said through other, more relevant character. The main story is about the Great Houses, Starks, Lannisters, Targaryens, etc. Hightowers are background characters
As of now the hightowers still are alive and well in their tower, meanwhile jon is dead and daenerys is shitting herself in essos
Ah, okay I see. In that case, yes, I’ll acknowledge that. I think they’re shaping up to be more important as individual characters in Winds, but given the state of Winds, I think you’re going to be right forever lmao
They are background characters in the main story. The only Hightower we've actually met who had a few lines of dialogue was Mace's wife. And we never saw her again after Margery's wedding. The Dance was probably the only time that they were at the heart of court politics in Westeros. But after the war, it seems they went back to what they did best - Which is focus on trade and commerce. They're really not relevant characters in terms of their impact in the main books. Whether they have more relevance in Winds, who knows. There's a good chance we'll likely never know, since I very much doubt Martin will ever finish the book.
Someone has not read the books, george literally wrote that the hightowers are becoming great players after dance. Seethe and cope.
Sure I haven't seen any evidence of that. Especially funny when talking about vassal of other great house Mind you that Hightower member with the most visibility in the saga is Alerie who have two lines of text to her. A background character, who fucks off back home soon after Margaery is married. So important, that she appeared in GOT, oh wait...
LOL, there's literally no evidence of that. But keep coping. At least you guys have a few lines of dialogue from Alerie in the main books.
Based off of the ingenuity and business sense of #1 a woman and #2 a woman that's aligned with the Blacks.
hahahahahahaha
Twilight mentioned 😤👍💯
Twilight mentioned 😤👍💯
House Hightower sure but no descendants of Otto or alicent. Interestingly Daemons daughter Rhaena married into the hightowers having six children.
Rhaena married a second son of Hitghtower...but she did no inherite Driftmark ? Girl cannot inherite in valaryon house ?
Ya know, someone once told Marlo Stanfield that the graveyard is full of people who wore the crown, I think the Targaryen response would echo Marlo’s: The point is they wore it
So you are saying... that Squidward is the rightful king of the seven kingdoms?
Not the twilight image 😭😭
It's pretty funny because if you factor in the Great Empire of the Dawn than the dragon-blooded are much much older. It's funny as well because in my fic, "The Rise of the New Empire," all of the Gods that the Andals, First Men, etc.. pray too are all from the GEOTD. The Seven-Who-Are-One are the sons and daughters of Jacaerys Balaerys, the third son of the Amethyst Empress and the Bloodstone Emperor, and the God of Travel, Exploration, Flight, and Winged Death. The Old Gods are all Gods of Nature from the GEOTD including Garth Greenhand who's the second son of the Amethyst Empress and the Bloodstone Emperor and the God of Trees, Fertility, Reproduction, and Blacksmithing. Then there's the Valyrian Gods who are descended from Alyx Targaryen, the Founder of House Targaryen, the eldest son of the Amethyst Empress and the Bloodstone Emperor, alongside being the God, R'hllor, the God of Life, Fire, Shadow, and Combat.
Soo? And also it looks like Hightowers are going to be destroyed by Euron So the odds don't look good for them
George isn't gonna write the books so that's never happening
The house has a crap ton of members and they all arent even present in Oldtown, so unlikely.
I doubt it. They have history of fighting the white walker in ancient time, if they destined to be destroyed it would be against them. But we would most likelly never get the last book so...
Greyjoys are the ultimate lossers of westeros who get clapped by literally everyone. Even stannis defeated them. On paper the the reach has a way better army than Euron so unless he summons a kraken or something he's getting beaten or maybe he won't even wage a war and just go for the glass candle instead which is at the citadel.
I mean are we gonna ignore the fact that the dudes who write all the histories are paid by the Hightowers and live under their rule?
Ehhh, maesters disrespected the Targtowers pretty damn hard. This is a pretty shaky argument.
Imao the "history is written by the victors" people forget that even in real life we have records of great conquerors and leaders in negative light, sometimes even by people close to them.
Sure, but are you going to argue they lied about Roberts rebellion? That they lied when they said the dragons went extinct?
Even if the Maesters are sponsored by them it doesn't mean every recorded history would be biased. Even in real life we have several accounts from varying perspectives on rulers some highlighting their virtue while others painting them as complete monsters.
So what parts do you disagree with? That house Hightower is a house with a lot of power?
I don’t entirely buy the idea that the Hightowers are a cut above the rest (ie: not being first men and predating them). It’s pretty normal for historians employed by a noble family to embellish history, and this seems like a pretty big embellishment if you ask me.
I don’t really see what house Hightower has to gain by lying about that.
Really? You don't see what the Hightowers, or any noble / royal family for that matter, could gain by embellishing their history? What, you think all those stories about Westerosi families being descended from gods or having these unbroken kingdoms stretching back thousands of years are all real and true do you? Maybe it'll help if I provide a real world example? European monarchs, such as Henry VIII of England, embellished their history by having scholars create family trees that tied them back to great rulers like Charlemagne and the Romans and, even, to God himself via Adam and Eve and other Biblical figures like Moses and Noah. Why do you think that these real-life counterparts would do this? Are they true accounts or embellished?
It’s not like Westeros makes a big deal of the Hightowers having a slightly different origin. I doubt that it has anything to do with the power Hightowers have today.
You doubt that controlling the only centre of learning and scholarship in Westeros has anything to do with the power and influence of the Hightowers?
I’m saying that they are not controlling the maesters, they are just living in the same town. If they did control them we would probably read less about the Green’s war crimes during the Dance. The point of the meme is that the Hightowers have been a big jouse for a long time, I don’t see how misinformation about the house’s origin has anything to do with it.
Why would we see less of the Hightowers in the histories if they didn’t influence the writing of said history? As it stands the history of the civil war between the Targaryens involves the Hightowers quite a bit and in a manner that isn’t detrimental to them. And I know what the point of the meme is, the thing I’m getting at is that from GRRM’s own words we shouldn’t take the histories of the Maesters at face value.
Propose a more interesting theory then and release it as a fanfic
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TB never bearing the eugenics allegations. Bunch of bloodline obsessed mofos
Tbf the house did go extinct and the last Targ is about as relevant as 1 of Aegons many bastards
I know what you mean but nah, we have zero idea of what happened to Rhaena's kids
I mean, it's easy not to have a lot happen to your house when it's really not relevant or interesting.
You're so right op, the Hightowers are the true oppressors in this story.
Targeryans rode dragons though 🔥
Still not the author’s favorite
Yeah, that's the Blackwoods.
And?
Brightest candles burn quickest.