Am an infectious disease physician. Water and sanitation is indeed the foundation of a good public health system, but competent allopathic care is the cornerstone. Without good medical care, people lose trust in the system as a whole.
You can’t pick either physicians or water and sanitation. They are part of an interoperating system.
What a load of crap on Elon’s part though - he tried to build vents himself. There is video of them demoing. More importantly, everyone knows vents aren’t the cure but are a last resort when a patient cannot oxygenate themselves. This constant historical re-write is so tiring.
Sorry for distracting from the ridiculous plumbing versus medicine debate but I didn’t want to lose the turd at the bottom of the bowl.
He’s acting too as if the west isn’t well aware of the risks of long-term ventilator use and how much we try to avoid it in patients. I am an ICU nurse, we literally will try every day we can to extubate someone or wean them off the vent.
This weird motto I’ve seen since COVID with people constantly saying we kill patients by putting them on ventilators is evidence of scientific illiteracy and inability to see they don’t know what they down know.
Both he and Peterson fail to understand the background risk of patients that go to hospitals or end up on ventilators that contribute to their mortality
It's just a really stupid observation from Peterson. The system is balanced out as much as possible. Sometimes, sanitation does fail, and when it does... where do the people who are sickened as a result go? They go to the hospital, of course! Everyone has their job and their role contributing to this advanced society that keeps us fed, warm, safe, and in relative balance. Recently, a solenoid failure in my electric shower meant the water just kept pouring through when I turned it off. Sure enough, a plumber fixed it for me in a few minutes, and only caused relatively short-lived health consequences when I got the invoice. Yet, I didn't call a doctor to fix my shower, because unlike Jordan, I kinda understand a medical physician wasn't typically called for in this case....
Peterson should've stuck with his original point that plumbers and sanitation workers don't get the respect they deserve because they likely save more lives than doctors, which is probably true statistically. Without sanitation, we would all be dead or dying in a matter of months, and the medical care system would collapse under the weight of surging disease.
To go further and say hospitals hurt more than they save is ridiculous. This is the issue with him lately. He has become attached to defending himself on social media and strays from his wheelhouse of clinical psychology. It's a shame because he has some phenomenal Harvard and U of Toronto lectures that really have a lot of value for young people and society in general, but they will never be viewed as such because of his personal behavior.
I do genuinely believe reliable plumbing and public waste management are probably two of humanity’s greatest modern inventions but I’m also not a dumbass who minimizes the importance of doctors and modern medicine
We studied Snow in my GIS data analysis class in grad school, he was way ahead of his time and knew lots. Actual science legend: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Snow
It’s all part of the coordinated campaign to downplay the importance of academia. While academia has its faults, it’s the single greatest secret behind American hegemony of the entire planet for the past 80 years or so.
Dennis Prager and other conservatives have been working on reducing the influence college has on American politics and culture. It’s not an opinion it’s a strategy for political influence.
The real reason Academia is targeted because it calls out the lies about cutting taxes for the rich, privatization, deregulation, products we buy (microplastics etc.) etc. will be good for the middle and poor classes through studies.
Places like Bob Jones never called out because they are just a propaganda institute masquerading as a university which supporting the rich elite.
An "Elite" to a regular person is someone with wealth and power
An "Elite" to someone with right-wing brain worms is anyone that has any sort of knowledge.
I love sci-fi books and settings with large time skips and corresponding dark ages with lost knowledge and technology (Dune, Foundation, 40k, the list goes on forever) but I always had trouble accepting that humanity could realistically backslide like that.
Well I recently read A Canticle for Liebowitz where the author explores the idea that survivors in a post-apocalyptic wasteland would blame and persecute scientists/engineers for their role in a nuclear apocalypse. A reaction that felt validating while realistically hamstringing the recovery of society. This book was written in the '60s so pre-internet and pre-information age, but it still got me thinking about the relationship between cultural sentiment and the retention and pursuit of knowledge. Cool book too, you can see all of its direct influences on post-apocalyptic fiction and the fallout series.
This isn't even the first time Peterson has made this dumbass claim.
Even when we consider the many people who die due to medical errors or hospital-acquired infections, the healthcare system has simply saved many many times the number of people it has harmed.
Simple things like vaccinations have improved lifespan greatly.
Peterson is not just wrong, he is a malicious, malodorous turd. If only a plumber could install some pipes thick enough to flush this useless shithead down.
This is why I think Peterson is being deliberately bad faith. You'd have to specifically study people who died due to medical error while hospitalized but would have lived if they were not hospitalized at all. Those people do exist but that is not the selection criteria for any of the studies that his numbers are based on.
As an anecdote, I’m literally in one right now with a family member. We’ve had about 5 different people come in this morning giving radically different recommendations about the path forward, none of which had any communication with each other and each of which has some agenda to push based on the company/department they work for. They all said she needs to “get some rest”, but then someone else comes in 30 minutes later and disrupts us. It’s just a disorganized clusterfuck that’s clearly being influenced by profits. That being said, it’s still better to be here than not I guess.
That just sounds like a shitty hospital lol
As another anecdote, I live 1.5 hrs away from Mayo which is pretty much unanimously the best hospital on Earth and still within the same shitty healthcare system somehow
Most of them are like this. My mom is very sick and we have had to bounce around between different hospitals, the right hand almost never knows what the left hand is doing and the quality of advice is random
Wish I could blame it on that but It’s a nationally renowned hospital lmao. Some other guy in the thread same the same is true in Canada. There’s no easy solution but the current system is just a clusterfuck
I live in Canada and during my wife's stay in a hospital after giving birth to my daughter I can assure you that the disorganization has nothing to do with the system we each live under. We dealt with a dozen nurses and about 5 doctors over our 4 days and each said different things, had different approaches and no one seemed to read or share information as we had to provide the most basic data multiple times every day.
As a doctor I can see why that’s confusing.
Usually this is due to a few things.
1. Especially at teaching hospitals med students will come in and practice on you as a patient, they don’t much really any power to fuck things up but getting used to speaking to patients is a good thing for a med student to learn. They often are confused on the plan and might say the wrong stuff. We try to minimize that but yeah.
2. Specialists. You have a primary team “general medicine” taking care of you in the hospital and if you’re a complicated patient they may start “consulting” specialists for their expert opinions. If you’re having heart problems a cardiologist, kidney problems a nephrologist etc. the specialists very rarely focus on things beyond their specialty.
For example, the cardiologist might say “let’s start a diuretic to help her breathing” but then the kidney doctor/nephrologist may say “absolutely not, the patient’s kidneys aren’t working so well and that could make the kidneys worse.” The heart doctor might respond “well the patient needs to breath” and there may be some back and forth.
Ultimately specialists only give their recommendations and what they THINK the primary team should do. The primary team should then synthesize all that info and determine what actually gets done.
If you look what this is in response to its even better. Rothmus (Who is a piece of shit) posted a screenshot of an article from May 13, 2023 about how ventilators killed people with Covid. Only it wasnt even a screenshot of an article, but a screenshot of a fact check of that, he just left out the fact checking part. Musk then came in with "I tried telling people that, but morons said Im not a doctor, but I oversee the construction of life support on space ships that keeps astronauts healty".
In other words Musk did not see it was old, nor did he verify accuracy, as usual, then came in with truly dumb reasoning as to why he should be listened to.
Then Peterson came in with this.
Its just a long chain of idiocy.
People thinking physicians use intubation as a first line intervention are insane. Intubation on a ventilator is literally the last thing a physician wants to do and is never a decision that is taken lightly.
I just spent several hours more than I should have setting a shower floor because the plumbers are too stupid to use a level on anything. I’ve had them set tubs in cement with the drain end an inch higher than the back side. They are truly saving lives out here
I had one cut the caulk around a drain and take it out to put the drain blocker into the drain and then filled it up with water and told me the shower was leaking. When they should have unscrewed the screen and dropped the bobber in. And this was for an insurance job on a handicap shower. So if there are good plumbers out there they do not work in Texas. At least DFW, north Texas
"after the first wave" too, as if they had all the answers vs the rest of the world's doctors.
They're trying to rewrite history. I remember airlines shutting down flights before Trump shut down the borders to get a control of it in advance.
Well 100% of the people who died drank H20 so it’s clearly a toxic substance. Checkmate atheists!
Oh also, didn’t Tesla and SpaceX manufacture ventilators for Covid patients? 🤔
>Oh also, didn’t Tesla and SpaceX manufacture ventilators for Covid patients? 🤔
They were hero anti-woke ventilators, not your commie intubated ventilators. If Obiden had the decency to use Musk's ventilators back in April 2020 then the whole thing would have been over in am month just like Musk said it would be.
I have it on good authority that the communist Canadian government flew in woke moralist doctors under cover to mess with his tubes while he was in a coma in Russia.
He’s so butthurt that he’s not considered a real doctor. It doesn’t help his cause that he dressed like a Batman villain and cries jn the bathroom all day.
Isn't a majority of plumbing designed by engineers than actual tradesmen plumbers, as is a great deal of medical technology? Let's get down to the root of the manner - who saves the lives, the creators or the propagators?
Plumbers save more lives than doctors. I would wager to say that it is possibly true given how much sanitation prevents many illnesses. However, what is the point of that fact if it is true? Should you not trust doctors because of this fact? I don't even know what conclusion this is coming to.
How else are you going to get students into the Marxist brainwashing facilities called the university system? You get a big paycheck in exchange for your ability to think for yourself.
You're much better off making less than a doctor by learning a trade, joining a union, getting all your opinions from right-wing media, and voting for people who want to destroy your union.
If he’s going to count the deaths prevented due to modern sanitation, it’s make the idea that hospitals kill more than they save an even more insane take. See how well taking away antibiotics works for a society lol
Taking away modern medicine away from society would kill a lot of people certainly in the realm of what taking away plumbing and sanitation. Both have their importance, which one "saves more" is kind of a silly argument.
It's not true.
And modern sanitation efforts were developed by public health experts and doctors, not plumbers.
Plumbers are great, and plumbing is a great benefit to humanity, but modern healthcare has saved many more people.
As another poster said, Peterson and his ilk are hellbent on downplaying the importance of academically-driven professions because they want to cater to their anti- intellectual audience.
The belief that medical errors is a leading cause of death is based on bad science. They used extrapolated data and applied it to the country as a whole. Imagine looking at a group of 65+ patients on Medicare and deciding that young healthy patients die at the same rate across every health care system.
Anyone who's worked in a hospital knows this is bogus. Drives me nuts because even people like John Oliver have repeated this lie.
Is he really saying that hospitals in America kill more patients than they say? Like I just f\*cking can't anymore with all of these bullshit lies and the dumb fucks who eat it all up. I give up. Burn everything down.
Its unfortunate he's become insane, but the thing about plumbing is actually correct. Waste management, clean and available water let humanity take a giant leap forward. Not as bad of a point as it seems at a glance.
But yeah, really unfortunate he's insane now, back before he was famous he made alot of sense and had great positive messages that I'm sure has help alot of people.
I guess it depends on what he means by saving lives.
I think plumbing, dental care, and better nutrition like adding vitamins to certain foods has saved a LOT of lives.
No life can really be 'saved' though. Everyone has to die. And everyone who is dying goes to a doctor. So it might statistically look like doctors 'kill' a lot of people but even if they extend a dying mans life one day they technically 'saved his life'. Saving a life just means extending it.
I am so disappointed that everything in society is compared to everything else. It is just a competition to see who is “worth” more.
You can make any comparison like “teachers save more lives because without them there are no doctors or plumbers” all day but it doesn’t help anyone.
Can we not just appreciate what everyone does in society? I respect the doctor that spent a decade plus learning their profession. I praise the plumber that saves my home when shit (no pun intended) gets out of hand. The same goes for truck drivers, teacher, fire fighters, cooks, sanitation workers, electricians, public servants, etc.
We all have jobs that everyone else needs and should be recognized for our contribution. It baffles me that work is not intertwined with respect because people like to talk poorly about some other job (doctor, plumber, etc.) until they NEED one!
It’s interesting with the context of intubation, given that Peterson specifically chose to go down that route to deal with his addiction. I wonder if he feels he was misled by the Russians about the safety of it and that is the part of why he is so bitter about this topic
You would think the lesson that he learned from that was to listen to the advice of the American/canadian doctors who refuse to do that procedure, but I’m guessing that lesson has fully gone over his head
He’s right that public health measures like sanitation have saved more lives than medication and surgery, but it’s physicians and health scientists who came up with those public health systems, not plumbers.
Then why did Peterson trust physicians enough to have them medically induce a coma for a month so he didn't have to go through withdrawal for his pill addiction
Plumbers protect the health of the nation - but you wouldn’t know anything about that.
https://preview.redd.it/geyxqqifc67d1.jpeg?width=981&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=0ec1517c81a83a418753ce6ebb69e956e048804d
I actually read a book once titled "checklist manifesto" and it was by a doctor and detailed how and why so many people would die to causes related to the hospital itself. Something like not washing your hands before an emergency surgery or say touching a door knob with your gloves on can lead to major infections
Both are really important. With out sanitation we'd all be living near are shit piss and garbage. I've had doctors cure my infections. I'm grateful for both and this just serves to devide people
You might be able to argue that plumbers save more lives than doctors. But citation absolutely fucking needed on doctors killing more people than they help - that's a bit unbelievable.
It’s surprising that so many well read persons seem to forget the last 3000 years of human history where good plumbing indeed saved more lives than doctors. Or is there still a high need for a good leeching? Or perhaps we should chant the spirits of infection away? Doctors were still killing more people during the plague than plumbers. It’s a pretty basic observation that stand scrutiny. Physicians frequently employed techniques that were harmful and sometimes still do today. Have some humility it your righteous indignation.
What's up with the format in which he's writing? Does he think he's writing a poem? It's just weird. Dude can't even write in a normal paragraph no more?
Well, plumbers certainly kill fewer people than doctors do. Doctors kill around 250,000 people per year; another 128,000 die from taking medicine as prescribed. I’d bet plumbers kill fewer folks than this. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/28186008/
https://health.usnews.com/health-news/patient-advice/articles/2016-09-27/the-danger-in-taking-prescribed-medications#:~:text=A%20more%20recent%20analysis%20estimates,on%20prescription%20painkillers%20and%20heroin.
If you're trying to argue that plumbers saved more lives than doctors due to preemptive measures, you either don't understand medicine or are intentionally lying. Either way, you're just flat out wrong on top of that.
He's not actually wrong. Lack of sanitation was the main reason for plagues of the past. We definitely take it for granted.
Now I wouldn't be dismissing medical doctors.
Didn’t Elon/Tesla make and donate ventilators in the spring of 2020 for the specific purpose of use on covid patients?I know we now know more about covid and would not necessarily recommend ventilators and those protocols in a covid patient now but it would appear Elon/Tesla were actively participating in building the ventilators he is claiming to have known where ineffective in his post here. Feel free to correct me if I am miss remembering, the details are a little fuzzy but I think the ventilators they made didn’t end up being used because they were not the appropriate type or built to the wrong specifications….
Clearly, that’s why people now consistently live shorter lives than before the advent of antibiotics, vaccines and proper sanitation. These people have completely lost it.
I mean ... I guess it depends how deep we go. If we are talking about plumbing in general, then he's absolutely right. Without plumbing, no modern cities - or hospitals would work.
I actually side with Peterson on this one. Modern sanitation has done a tremendous amount to improve health. And good sanitation always made people better and never made them worse. That’s not true of allopathic medicine. That’s not to say that there haven’t been improvements in western healthcare that are truly lifesaving. But allopathic medicine is has a lot of flaws that are ignored. Take the entire pharmaceutical industry. Western medicine is driven by capitalism. So all we do is push pills instead of promoting food as natural medicine. And the list of dangerous, organ damaging side effects of the toxic crap in most of those pills is astronomical. We are wearing out our bodies by forcing our organs to constantly process toxic chemicals. Then there is the entire quackccine industry. If you take the time to do the research you will come to realize that the entire vax industry is predicated on a faulty premise. No, they have never prevented a single illness. Not even once. Look it up. Even polio was not what you’ve been taught. Then there’s all the new procedures and surgeries. The list of class action lawsuits due to failed pills and treatments is very long. Americans supposedly have some of the best healthcare in the world. And yet we are one of the sickest and most unhealthy countries in the world.
With out basic sanitation and clean drinking water that indoor plumbing provides, not to mention sewage treatment, the people who built and maintain these systems probably have saved more lives. It's not that crazy of a statement. There are plenty of things like vaccines and antibiotics that have also saved tons of lives but look at ancient Rome. At the height of their empire they brought sanitation and plumbing to many areas and improved life in a profound way. After the fall when their technology was lost for a time you have what are known as the dark ages. Bubonic plague any one?
Bro my wife is a nurse. These days I wouldn’t doubt it. The managers don’t give a fuck and allow these new nurses to do whatever they want. It’s horrible. The nursing exam was made easier so they could push more nurses through because it was “to hard” My wife has literally coded and saved dozens and dozens of people. She has come home crying so many times because her manager never listened and people died directly because of it. When she was there it seemed like she was saving 2-4 lives a month. My wife worked at a level 1 trauma hospital and it was hell. These nurses today are so damn lazy. They silence their call bells, they sleep on shift with blankets in empty rooms. They aren’t compassionate anymore, they are there strictly for the money, not because they have a caring personality. It’s really bad right now guys. I’m not trying to over hype it. I wish it wasn’t like this. The hospitals put managers in place that are going to go against the nurses when the good nurses can’t take it anymore. They don’t want people in there that will stand up for the nurses and nurse aides so all of the good nurses leave. And your left with new nurses. There are some good newer nurses out there for sure. But there are way more garbage nurses that don’t know shit.
I’m so tired of comments like Elon’s tweet here. He’s acting as if healthcare professionals in the west aren’t well aware of the risks of long-term ventilator use and how much we try to avoid it in patients. I am an ICU nurse, we literally will try every day we can to extubate someone or wean them off the vent.
This weird motto I’ve seen since COVID with people constantly saying we kill patients by putting them on ventilators is evidence of scientific illiteracy and inability to see they don’t know what they down know.
It's just semantics. The benefit of great plumbing would be of no use for medical procedures if there were no Surgeons to perform medical procedures. They need each other to be of any benefit.
The plumber claim isn't ridiculous. Anyone with even a vague knowledge of history knows this. Infectious diseases spread from poor sanitation has been the biggest cause of death since the dawn of civilization.
Obviously it's fucking insane to claim that hospitals kill more people than they save, but in the context of COVID it makes more sense. The last place you want to be during a pandemic is in a hospital, unless it is your absolute only option.
His framing of this to say doctors are useless is wrong, but in raw numbers, he is correct since clean water and waste management are the most important tools we have for preventing disease.
Jordan Peterson has become such an idiotic asshole. It's truly remarkable.
I used to like what he had to say, even though he is kind of a dumb persons idea of a smart person. Now he just seems so insufferable.
Think about it, how sick would people be today if we continued to throw our feces into the street? That’s what he’s saying. Just use your brain a little and you will figure this complicated claim out. You can do it.
Doctors "practice" medicine. Remember that. No one is infallible. However, without modern medicine we would see a ton more disease. Modern plumbing is pretty sweet too. We don't always have to pit something against something else
This post is hilarious 😭😭 every comment is basically “well he’s technically not wrong but since we already hate him let’s just shit on him anyways” lol
If elmo is so upset about people dying on ventilators he will be SHOCKED to learn that thousands more people die in ambulances than taxis.
The lesson is clear: ambulances = death.
He's just fighting against his own irrelevance. Nothing is more predictable than a fading media figure tweeting hot takes for attention.
Look at how fast Tucker went full Alex Jones.
Am an infectious disease physician. Water and sanitation is indeed the foundation of a good public health system, but competent allopathic care is the cornerstone. Without good medical care, people lose trust in the system as a whole. You can’t pick either physicians or water and sanitation. They are part of an interoperating system.
What a load of crap on Elon’s part though - he tried to build vents himself. There is video of them demoing. More importantly, everyone knows vents aren’t the cure but are a last resort when a patient cannot oxygenate themselves. This constant historical re-write is so tiring. Sorry for distracting from the ridiculous plumbing versus medicine debate but I didn’t want to lose the turd at the bottom of the bowl.
He’s acting too as if the west isn’t well aware of the risks of long-term ventilator use and how much we try to avoid it in patients. I am an ICU nurse, we literally will try every day we can to extubate someone or wean them off the vent. This weird motto I’ve seen since COVID with people constantly saying we kill patients by putting them on ventilators is evidence of scientific illiteracy and inability to see they don’t know what they down know.
https://youtu.be/zZbDg24dfN0?si=g0oMLiEdpuBI2FRS Must be rogue engineers
I thought he tried to donate a bunch of ventilators during the pandemic but they were actually cpap machines for sleep apnea lol
Both he and Peterson fail to understand the background risk of patients that go to hospitals or end up on ventilators that contribute to their mortality
But what if you’re making millions of dollars telling people they are medical geniuses and doctors don’t know what they are talking about?
What if you're on a benzo cocktail and just watched the Super Mario Bros movie?
It reads like a 7th cup of coffee and a line of crushed Adderall tweet. That or he's cosplaying Yoda. "Smarter than you, I am!"
Then you had a good time?
This isn't about doctors vs plumbers. It's inciting class warfare between blue collar and white collar.
1000%
Are our sanitation systems actually designed or built by plumbers though?
Not designed. But built? Duh? Who else would build it?
Plumbers don't build sewage systems? They plum pipes? 🤔
I don’t know. That’s why I asked
No, they would just be an engineer. Beyond that a plumber will be working at likey a home site as a specialist construction worker.
Well the funny thing is plumbers didn’t invent sanitation systems - engineers for the most part did… which are academics that Jordan Peterson hates.
plumbing came before academics.
Plumbers don’t design sanitation systems…
Plumbing engineers do.
yeah, a Plumbus
It's just a really stupid observation from Peterson. The system is balanced out as much as possible. Sometimes, sanitation does fail, and when it does... where do the people who are sickened as a result go? They go to the hospital, of course! Everyone has their job and their role contributing to this advanced society that keeps us fed, warm, safe, and in relative balance. Recently, a solenoid failure in my electric shower meant the water just kept pouring through when I turned it off. Sure enough, a plumber fixed it for me in a few minutes, and only caused relatively short-lived health consequences when I got the invoice. Yet, I didn't call a doctor to fix my shower, because unlike Jordan, I kinda understand a medical physician wasn't typically called for in this case....
Peterson should've stuck with his original point that plumbers and sanitation workers don't get the respect they deserve because they likely save more lives than doctors, which is probably true statistically. Without sanitation, we would all be dead or dying in a matter of months, and the medical care system would collapse under the weight of surging disease. To go further and say hospitals hurt more than they save is ridiculous. This is the issue with him lately. He has become attached to defending himself on social media and strays from his wheelhouse of clinical psychology. It's a shame because he has some phenomenal Harvard and U of Toronto lectures that really have a lot of value for young people and society in general, but they will never be viewed as such because of his personal behavior.
I do genuinely believe reliable plumbing and public waste management are probably two of humanity’s greatest modern inventions but I’m also not a dumbass who minimizes the importance of doctors and modern medicine
Wasn't it a doctor who figured out the cholera problem from a well and proximity? Plumbers save lives in part based on stuff doctors figure out.
John Snow, the father of modern epidemiology.
He knew something
Specifically that one, shitty, thing.
We studied Snow in my GIS data analysis class in grad school, he was way ahead of his time and knew lots. Actual science legend: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Snow
I mean plumbers are essentially cardiac surgeons, its all just pipes and pumps bruh
There's actually a weird amount of overlap one can make between surgeons and construction workers.
Absolutely
Yes, and it was figured out through epidemiology, which guys like Peterson and Rogan claim are worse than useless.
It’s all part of the coordinated campaign to downplay the importance of academia. While academia has its faults, it’s the single greatest secret behind American hegemony of the entire planet for the past 80 years or so. Dennis Prager and other conservatives have been working on reducing the influence college has on American politics and culture. It’s not an opinion it’s a strategy for political influence.
There's only four rules of plumbing: 1. Shit Rolls Down Hill 2. Payday's Friday 3. The Boss is an Asshole 4. Don't Lick Your Fingers After Lunch
I was always told "cold on the right, hot on the left, and shit flows downhill."
Which is hilarious because if you insult Peterson on his home turf, everyone there will ask how many phds you have!
The real reason Academia is targeted because it calls out the lies about cutting taxes for the rich, privatization, deregulation, products we buy (microplastics etc.) etc. will be good for the middle and poor classes through studies. Places like Bob Jones never called out because they are just a propaganda institute masquerading as a university which supporting the rich elite.
An "Elite" to a regular person is someone with wealth and power An "Elite" to someone with right-wing brain worms is anyone that has any sort of knowledge.
I love sci-fi books and settings with large time skips and corresponding dark ages with lost knowledge and technology (Dune, Foundation, 40k, the list goes on forever) but I always had trouble accepting that humanity could realistically backslide like that. Well I recently read A Canticle for Liebowitz where the author explores the idea that survivors in a post-apocalyptic wasteland would blame and persecute scientists/engineers for their role in a nuclear apocalypse. A reaction that felt validating while realistically hamstringing the recovery of society. This book was written in the '60s so pre-internet and pre-information age, but it still got me thinking about the relationship between cultural sentiment and the retention and pursuit of knowledge. Cool book too, you can see all of its direct influences on post-apocalyptic fiction and the fallout series.
It's honestly a great little read. Plus space monks
I knew I was making a mistake by going to the ER instead of the local plumbers union for my appendectomy.
Just got to be careful to make the distinction between real science and "corporate" science
Hospitals are fucked up. But saying that they “kill more people than they help” is objectively insane
Especially when you're Peterson and traveled to Russia to get put in a coma to beat your xanax addiction.
This isn't even the first time Peterson has made this dumbass claim. Even when we consider the many people who die due to medical errors or hospital-acquired infections, the healthcare system has simply saved many many times the number of people it has harmed. Simple things like vaccinations have improved lifespan greatly. Peterson is not just wrong, he is a malicious, malodorous turd. If only a plumber could install some pipes thick enough to flush this useless shithead down.
Also how many of those deaths are already people on the verge of death and doctors doing something as a bit of a Hail Mary?
This is why I think Peterson is being deliberately bad faith. You'd have to specifically study people who died due to medical error while hospitalized but would have lived if they were not hospitalized at all. Those people do exist but that is not the selection criteria for any of the studies that his numbers are based on.
"Real estate agents very rarely see clients die while they are working with them, which make them much better for our health as physicians."
Why are hospitals fucked up
Admins and insurance
As an anecdote, I’m literally in one right now with a family member. We’ve had about 5 different people come in this morning giving radically different recommendations about the path forward, none of which had any communication with each other and each of which has some agenda to push based on the company/department they work for. They all said she needs to “get some rest”, but then someone else comes in 30 minutes later and disrupts us. It’s just a disorganized clusterfuck that’s clearly being influenced by profits. That being said, it’s still better to be here than not I guess.
That just sounds like a shitty hospital lol As another anecdote, I live 1.5 hrs away from Mayo which is pretty much unanimously the best hospital on Earth and still within the same shitty healthcare system somehow
Most of them are like this. My mom is very sick and we have had to bounce around between different hospitals, the right hand almost never knows what the left hand is doing and the quality of advice is random
Wish I could blame it on that but It’s a nationally renowned hospital lmao. Some other guy in the thread same the same is true in Canada. There’s no easy solution but the current system is just a clusterfuck
I live in Canada and during my wife's stay in a hospital after giving birth to my daughter I can assure you that the disorganization has nothing to do with the system we each live under. We dealt with a dozen nurses and about 5 doctors over our 4 days and each said different things, had different approaches and no one seemed to read or share information as we had to provide the most basic data multiple times every day.
As a doctor I can see why that’s confusing. Usually this is due to a few things. 1. Especially at teaching hospitals med students will come in and practice on you as a patient, they don’t much really any power to fuck things up but getting used to speaking to patients is a good thing for a med student to learn. They often are confused on the plan and might say the wrong stuff. We try to minimize that but yeah. 2. Specialists. You have a primary team “general medicine” taking care of you in the hospital and if you’re a complicated patient they may start “consulting” specialists for their expert opinions. If you’re having heart problems a cardiologist, kidney problems a nephrologist etc. the specialists very rarely focus on things beyond their specialty. For example, the cardiologist might say “let’s start a diuretic to help her breathing” but then the kidney doctor/nephrologist may say “absolutely not, the patient’s kidneys aren’t working so well and that could make the kidneys worse.” The heart doctor might respond “well the patient needs to breath” and there may be some back and forth. Ultimately specialists only give their recommendations and what they THINK the primary team should do. The primary team should then synthesize all that info and determine what actually gets done.
If you look what this is in response to its even better. Rothmus (Who is a piece of shit) posted a screenshot of an article from May 13, 2023 about how ventilators killed people with Covid. Only it wasnt even a screenshot of an article, but a screenshot of a fact check of that, he just left out the fact checking part. Musk then came in with "I tried telling people that, but morons said Im not a doctor, but I oversee the construction of life support on space ships that keeps astronauts healty". In other words Musk did not see it was old, nor did he verify accuracy, as usual, then came in with truly dumb reasoning as to why he should be listened to. Then Peterson came in with this. Its just a long chain of idiocy.
People past a certain age tend to be unable to deal with using the internet and social media
People thinking physicians use intubation as a first line intervention are insane. Intubation on a ventilator is literally the last thing a physician wants to do and is never a decision that is taken lightly.
I just spent several hours more than I should have setting a shower floor because the plumbers are too stupid to use a level on anything. I’ve had them set tubs in cement with the drain end an inch higher than the back side. They are truly saving lives out here
Lots of good plumbers out there but holy fuck there's a reason they make way less than a doctor and dont need to go to college.
I had one cut the caulk around a drain and take it out to put the drain blocker into the drain and then filled it up with water and told me the shower was leaking. When they should have unscrewed the screen and dropped the bobber in. And this was for an insurance job on a handicap shower. So if there are good plumbers out there they do not work in Texas. At least DFW, north Texas
Musk talked to the doctors in Wuhan? LOL
"after the first wave" too, as if they had all the answers vs the rest of the world's doctors. They're trying to rewrite history. I remember airlines shutting down flights before Trump shut down the borders to get a control of it in advance.
Or just the idea that China would allow anyone to be talking to the western world. They were trying to hide everything as best they could.
Well 100% of the people who died drank H20 so it’s clearly a toxic substance. Checkmate atheists! Oh also, didn’t Tesla and SpaceX manufacture ventilators for Covid patients? 🤔
>Oh also, didn’t Tesla and SpaceX manufacture ventilators for Covid patients? 🤔 They were hero anti-woke ventilators, not your commie intubated ventilators. If Obiden had the decency to use Musk's ventilators back in April 2020 then the whole thing would have been over in am month just like Musk said it would be.
Dude is still bitter that doctors put him in a coma which messed him up for life. He should take some personal responsibility and blame himself.
That wasn’t even Canadian or American doctors. He had to go all the way to Russia to find doctors who would do that lol.
I have it on good authority that the communist Canadian government flew in woke moralist doctors under cover to mess with his tubes while he was in a coma in Russia.
Indoor plumbing has saved a shitload of people from nasty disease, no pun intended.
Until modern germ theory and health statistics (eg John Snow) a lot of plumbing just shuffled the cholera around.
So have vaccines, C sections, cardiac caths…
Then Jordan should avoid hospitals, no matter what, or he’s a hypocrite. If he has a heart attack, call a plumber.
Now i am imagining a plumber pumping a plunger on his chest counting out the beat of "Staying Alive"
*At first I was afraid, I was petrified*
He’s so butthurt that he’s not considered a real doctor. It doesn’t help his cause that he dressed like a Batman villain and cries jn the bathroom all day.
Peterson went "men should dress like men and not like boys" and then went full "Riddle me this, Post-modernists"
Isn't a majority of plumbing designed by engineers than actual tradesmen plumbers, as is a great deal of medical technology? Let's get down to the root of the manner - who saves the lives, the creators or the propagators?
Creators.
Not if it’s never applied, so propagators have an impact. Reverse it, Winchester didn’t take lives, soldiers with his rifle did.
Apple didn't invent the touchscreen cellphone, they propagated it. Apple didn't invent the PC GUI, they propagated it.
Better cut down on my recreational intubated ventilator use. It would be stupid to ignore the advise of imaginary Chinese doctors.
you obey the commie thought police if you want. They can pry my intubated ventilator from my cold dead air pipe.
What's with Peterson's formatting on Twitter? His posts always look like a 12 year trying his hand at poetry.
Crime still exists and innocent people have gone to prison, therefore a justice system is pointless. Mental illness in action folks
That brain is cooked beyond belief
Lucky the plumbers were there to save his life!
Plumbers save more lives than doctors. I would wager to say that it is possibly true given how much sanitation prevents many illnesses. However, what is the point of that fact if it is true? Should you not trust doctors because of this fact? I don't even know what conclusion this is coming to.
Wonder why doctors make more than plumbers 🤔
How else are you going to get students into the Marxist brainwashing facilities called the university system? You get a big paycheck in exchange for your ability to think for yourself. You're much better off making less than a doctor by learning a trade, joining a union, getting all your opinions from right-wing media, and voting for people who want to destroy your union.
If he’s going to count the deaths prevented due to modern sanitation, it’s make the idea that hospitals kill more than they save an even more insane take. See how well taking away antibiotics works for a society lol
Taking away modern medicine away from society would kill a lot of people certainly in the realm of what taking away plumbing and sanitation. Both have their importance, which one "saves more" is kind of a silly argument.
It's not true. And modern sanitation efforts were developed by public health experts and doctors, not plumbers. Plumbers are great, and plumbing is a great benefit to humanity, but modern healthcare has saved many more people. As another poster said, Peterson and his ilk are hellbent on downplaying the importance of academically-driven professions because they want to cater to their anti- intellectual audience.
The belief that medical errors is a leading cause of death is based on bad science. They used extrapolated data and applied it to the country as a whole. Imagine looking at a group of 65+ patients on Medicare and deciding that young healthy patients die at the same rate across every health care system. Anyone who's worked in a hospital knows this is bogus. Drives me nuts because even people like John Oliver have repeated this lie.
Why does he type like he's doing a Walken or Shatner impression?
He imagines himself as a fedora wearing beat poet Ya dig? Daddy-o.
“Therapists don’t know anything Randy, they cause more mental health problems than they cure.” - Jim “The Liquor” Lahey
Is he really saying that hospitals in America kill more patients than they say? Like I just f\*cking can't anymore with all of these bullshit lies and the dumb fucks who eat it all up. I give up. Burn everything down.
I fucking hate these people.
Wasn’t Jordan Peterson in a medically induced coma because of his benzo addiction? Who’d o you think brought him out of the addiction
Yes and a doctor saved his wife from Kidney cancer I believe. His daughter also had tons of medical issues growing up.
Anyone who takes Jbp serious needs their head examined, the guys totally lost
I honestly don't think it's that insane of a claim. Surely I'm not the only one in here thinking that.
On a historical scale he's probably right. Proper waste management has prevented untold amounts of disease over the course of history.
Yeah but modern sanitation was invented by engineers and scientists, not plumbers.
I would like to forget Jordan Peterson exists. I think if more people realise how pretentious and irrelevant he is, it might actually help him too.
He’s absolutely right.
Lol
Its unfortunate he's become insane, but the thing about plumbing is actually correct. Waste management, clean and available water let humanity take a giant leap forward. Not as bad of a point as it seems at a glance. But yeah, really unfortunate he's insane now, back before he was famous he made alot of sense and had great positive messages that I'm sure has help alot of people.
Medicine has also brought great leaps forward and saved an untold number of lives...dunno how you would even start to compare them.
Yes but actual fucking plumbers? Thats like saying painters saved more lives than doctors because they painted lanes on the roads.
It’s called a p-trap
This is absolutely true. The benefits of sanitation and sewage systems eclipse modern medicine by an order of magnitude
I'm a physician and i think Dr Peterson is correct.
The statement might be factually correct, but it’s implying that physicians and hospitals are worthless
He makes four statements. I agree with all of them, except for the 3rd Specifically, I don't think we kill more people than we help.
Purely in facts he's probably right.
Yeah, I need a knee replacement and a cancer surgery. I hope my plumber is free this week.
🤪
Latrogenesis is probably the 3rd leading cause of death now since the jab.
I guess it depends on what he means by saving lives. I think plumbing, dental care, and better nutrition like adding vitamins to certain foods has saved a LOT of lives. No life can really be 'saved' though. Everyone has to die. And everyone who is dying goes to a doctor. So it might statistically look like doctors 'kill' a lot of people but even if they extend a dying mans life one day they technically 'saved his life'. Saving a life just means extending it.
Water drowns more people than it saves from dying of thirst.
I am so disappointed that everything in society is compared to everything else. It is just a competition to see who is “worth” more. You can make any comparison like “teachers save more lives because without them there are no doctors or plumbers” all day but it doesn’t help anyone. Can we not just appreciate what everyone does in society? I respect the doctor that spent a decade plus learning their profession. I praise the plumber that saves my home when shit (no pun intended) gets out of hand. The same goes for truck drivers, teacher, fire fighters, cooks, sanitation workers, electricians, public servants, etc. We all have jobs that everyone else needs and should be recognized for our contribution. It baffles me that work is not intertwined with respect because people like to talk poorly about some other job (doctor, plumber, etc.) until they NEED one!
This is a fun take. It's also impossible to know so it's weird to see obvious shaking from some while typing their response.
By that logic farmers are regularly saving every human life on earth
Picking a fight against science and education is on point with these clowns.
Next time he gets sick, he should got see his plumber.
Cool next time you need to get an x ray see a plumber 👍
It’s interesting with the context of intubation, given that Peterson specifically chose to go down that route to deal with his addiction. I wonder if he feels he was misled by the Russians about the safety of it and that is the part of why he is so bitter about this topic You would think the lesson that he learned from that was to listen to the advice of the American/canadian doctors who refuse to do that procedure, but I’m guessing that lesson has fully gone over his head
He’s right that public health measures like sanitation have saved more lives than medication and surgery, but it’s physicians and health scientists who came up with those public health systems, not plumbers.
Then why did Peterson trust physicians enough to have them medically induce a coma for a month so he didn't have to go through withdrawal for his pill addiction
Plumbers protect the health of the nation - but you wouldn’t know anything about that. https://preview.redd.it/geyxqqifc67d1.jpeg?width=981&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=0ec1517c81a83a418753ce6ebb69e956e048804d
Is he trying to tweet in Haiku ? If so, he's also fucking that up.
I think the carnivore diet has led to the build up of parasites in his head which have eaten up his brain
I actually read a book once titled "checklist manifesto" and it was by a doctor and detailed how and why so many people would die to causes related to the hospital itself. Something like not washing your hands before an emergency surgery or say touching a door knob with your gloves on can lead to major infections
Was Jonas Salk a plumber?
I think the argument is that sewer systems started in the 1850s eliminating cholera etc. Medical practice at the time was still bloodletting etc.
How fucked am I if my plumber gets polio?
Both are really important. With out sanitation we'd all be living near are shit piss and garbage. I've had doctors cure my infections. I'm grateful for both and this just serves to devide people
Na, you can hate him all you want but he's kinda right here. This isn't really a valid argument against him, malpractice is huge
You might be able to argue that plumbers save more lives than doctors. But citation absolutely fucking needed on doctors killing more people than they help - that's a bit unbelievable.
To be fair, I think Peterson has a good reason to mistrust doctors after what he has been through.
It’s surprising that so many well read persons seem to forget the last 3000 years of human history where good plumbing indeed saved more lives than doctors. Or is there still a high need for a good leeching? Or perhaps we should chant the spirits of infection away? Doctors were still killing more people during the plague than plumbers. It’s a pretty basic observation that stand scrutiny. Physicians frequently employed techniques that were harmful and sometimes still do today. Have some humility it your righteous indignation.
I don’t see the correlation between medical errors and saving lives.
Why is Jordan Peterson writing in verse?
What's up with the format in which he's writing? Does he think he's writing a poem? It's just weird. Dude can't even write in a normal paragraph no more?
Well, plumbers certainly kill fewer people than doctors do. Doctors kill around 250,000 people per year; another 128,000 die from taking medicine as prescribed. I’d bet plumbers kill fewer folks than this. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/28186008/ https://health.usnews.com/health-news/patient-advice/articles/2016-09-27/the-danger-in-taking-prescribed-medications#:~:text=A%20more%20recent%20analysis%20estimates,on%20prescription%20painkillers%20and%20heroin.
If you're trying to argue that plumbers saved more lives than doctors due to preemptive measures, you either don't understand medicine or are intentionally lying. Either way, you're just flat out wrong on top of that.
He's not actually wrong. Lack of sanitation was the main reason for plagues of the past. We definitely take it for granted. Now I wouldn't be dismissing medical doctors.
Shit has gotten so weird in the past 10 years.
Paterson is back on the bottle and Benzos.
Didn’t Elon/Tesla make and donate ventilators in the spring of 2020 for the specific purpose of use on covid patients?I know we now know more about covid and would not necessarily recommend ventilators and those protocols in a covid patient now but it would appear Elon/Tesla were actively participating in building the ventilators he is claiming to have known where ineffective in his post here. Feel free to correct me if I am miss remembering, the details are a little fuzzy but I think the ventilators they made didn’t end up being used because they were not the appropriate type or built to the wrong specifications….
Plumbers HAVE saved more lives than doctors. Pick a better argument.
fly swatters and bed netting have saved more lives than both.
Clearly, that’s why people now consistently live shorter lives than before the advent of antibiotics, vaccines and proper sanitation. These people have completely lost it.
I can't believe I used to take this moron serious LMFAO Granted this was early on but man
I mean ... I guess it depends how deep we go. If we are talking about plumbing in general, then he's absolutely right. Without plumbing, no modern cities - or hospitals would work.
I actually side with Peterson on this one. Modern sanitation has done a tremendous amount to improve health. And good sanitation always made people better and never made them worse. That’s not true of allopathic medicine. That’s not to say that there haven’t been improvements in western healthcare that are truly lifesaving. But allopathic medicine is has a lot of flaws that are ignored. Take the entire pharmaceutical industry. Western medicine is driven by capitalism. So all we do is push pills instead of promoting food as natural medicine. And the list of dangerous, organ damaging side effects of the toxic crap in most of those pills is astronomical. We are wearing out our bodies by forcing our organs to constantly process toxic chemicals. Then there is the entire quackccine industry. If you take the time to do the research you will come to realize that the entire vax industry is predicated on a faulty premise. No, they have never prevented a single illness. Not even once. Look it up. Even polio was not what you’ve been taught. Then there’s all the new procedures and surgeries. The list of class action lawsuits due to failed pills and treatments is very long. Americans supposedly have some of the best healthcare in the world. And yet we are one of the sickest and most unhealthy countries in the world.
I love how the Chinese can’t come up with a good vaccine and had a ton of deaths, yet they are the experts according to Elon.
Ah, the ol more people die in the hospital than on the toilet stance.
As if we needed more evidence that Peterson is an unequivocal fucking moron.
It’s true.
With out basic sanitation and clean drinking water that indoor plumbing provides, not to mention sewage treatment, the people who built and maintain these systems probably have saved more lives. It's not that crazy of a statement. There are plenty of things like vaccines and antibiotics that have also saved tons of lives but look at ancient Rome. At the height of their empire they brought sanitation and plumbing to many areas and improved life in a profound way. After the fall when their technology was lost for a time you have what are known as the dark ages. Bubonic plague any one?
Modern water sanitation - good thing. Modern medicine - also good thing. Benzos - bad thing.
Dr. Peterson doesn't even know how to structure a sentence!
Bro my wife is a nurse. These days I wouldn’t doubt it. The managers don’t give a fuck and allow these new nurses to do whatever they want. It’s horrible. The nursing exam was made easier so they could push more nurses through because it was “to hard” My wife has literally coded and saved dozens and dozens of people. She has come home crying so many times because her manager never listened and people died directly because of it. When she was there it seemed like she was saving 2-4 lives a month. My wife worked at a level 1 trauma hospital and it was hell. These nurses today are so damn lazy. They silence their call bells, they sleep on shift with blankets in empty rooms. They aren’t compassionate anymore, they are there strictly for the money, not because they have a caring personality. It’s really bad right now guys. I’m not trying to over hype it. I wish it wasn’t like this. The hospitals put managers in place that are going to go against the nurses when the good nurses can’t take it anymore. They don’t want people in there that will stand up for the nurses and nurse aides so all of the good nurses leave. And your left with new nurses. There are some good newer nurses out there for sure. But there are way more garbage nurses that don’t know shit.
I mean of course the doctors in ground zero had no idea how to fight the novel coronavirus lmao what did he expect?
I’m so tired of comments like Elon’s tweet here. He’s acting as if healthcare professionals in the west aren’t well aware of the risks of long-term ventilator use and how much we try to avoid it in patients. I am an ICU nurse, we literally will try every day we can to extubate someone or wean them off the vent. This weird motto I’ve seen since COVID with people constantly saying we kill patients by putting them on ventilators is evidence of scientific illiteracy and inability to see they don’t know what they down know.
It's just semantics. The benefit of great plumbing would be of no use for medical procedures if there were no Surgeons to perform medical procedures. They need each other to be of any benefit.
Are you not understanding that if we didn’t have clean water and sewage systems we’d all be dead?
One thing academics hate is being compared to professions they see as beneath them, like plumbers.
I mean, I think I'm finally off the wagon guys.
The plumber claim isn't ridiculous. Anyone with even a vague knowledge of history knows this. Infectious diseases spread from poor sanitation has been the biggest cause of death since the dawn of civilization. Obviously it's fucking insane to claim that hospitals kill more people than they save, but in the context of COVID it makes more sense. The last place you want to be during a pandemic is in a hospital, unless it is your absolute only option.
I think he is talking about having modern sewage systems, before that shit and piss everywhere.
I think he want us to see the numbers. Which one has more kill count. The less count the, more lives are saved?
His framing of this to say doctors are useless is wrong, but in raw numbers, he is correct since clean water and waste management are the most important tools we have for preventing disease.
Jordan Peterson has become such an idiotic asshole. It's truly remarkable. I used to like what he had to say, even though he is kind of a dumb persons idea of a smart person. Now he just seems so insufferable.
Think about it, how sick would people be today if we continued to throw our feces into the street? That’s what he’s saying. Just use your brain a little and you will figure this complicated claim out. You can do it.
This benzo addict needs some medical care..!!
As a plumber, you’re welcome bitches
Doctors "practice" medicine. Remember that. No one is infallible. However, without modern medicine we would see a ton more disease. Modern plumbing is pretty sweet too. We don't always have to pit something against something else
Get some math op. He’s correct. By a long shot.
neither of those lying fucks got anything to say I want or need to hear
This post is hilarious 😭😭 every comment is basically “well he’s technically not wrong but since we already hate him let’s just shit on him anyways” lol
If elmo is so upset about people dying on ventilators he will be SHOCKED to learn that thousands more people die in ambulances than taxis. The lesson is clear: ambulances = death.
His rants are elite, like, Trump level.
Adding chlorine to water isn't a plumbers job.
When Jordan Peterson opens his mouth…ugh. He’s the new Alex Jones
He's just fighting against his own irrelevance. Nothing is more predictable than a fading media figure tweeting hot takes for attention. Look at how fast Tucker went full Alex Jones.