I can tell you why Romania does not recognise Kosovo: we have a couple of regions in Romania with ethnic Hungarians in majority (Harghita, Covasna).
Recognizing Kosovo will bring problems with Romanian vision regarding regions with high foreign population. We do not recognize Kosovo by omission: we do not have an official opinion.
I think that is the same situation as in Spain and Catalonia.
I'm native Hungarian speaker living in Slovakia. Large majority of Hungarian minority doesn't want to be a part of Hungary. I think Slovakia should recognise Kosovo.
I don't think that matters to Hungary. Just look at Russia-Ukraine.
One of the reasons Russia wants Ukraine is so that all Russian speakers are united under one state, even though literally nobody in Ukraine wants to be part of Russia.
Tbf almost everyone in Ukraine speaks Russian due to how prevalent it is (business, military, etc.)- even in my friend group (Ukrainian, Russians, Armenian, Bulgarian) we speak Russian frequently because it’s easier than English sometimes
Although that’s changing a lot now due to laws, it’ll be interesting to see how it plays out
Luckily for them, Hungary's military is a joke.
Knowing Hungarian history, any kind of attempted annexation would quickly end up in Slovakia getting more territory.
The pro Great Hungarian Empire sentiment is till very strong in Hungary but not that so much in Slovakia. At last half of the Hungarians in Slovakia don’t vote local Hungarian parties.
It's about Cyprus, there aren't any independence movements in Greece.
Source: I'm actually a Greek, unlike these people who are talking about some supposed Albanian or Macedonian independence movements
This might be a reach but possibly Greece might have beef with Albania. I don't think Cyprus is very relevant because that was a Turkish invasion to prevent Cyprus from uniting with Greece and taking pretty much all the remaining useful territorial water Turkey had and putting it directly in Greek hands, rather than any kind of independence movement.
That might be part of it but I think the main reason is Orthodox solidarity between Greece and Serbia. Greece has historically argued Serbia's perspective within NATO and the EU going back to the breakup of Yugoslavia.
Cyprus situation isn't similar.
Northern Cyprus isn't recognized by any nation on Earth apart from Turkey.
On the other hand Kosovo is recognized by 101 United Nation states.
[Even the Turkish Cypriots themselves want reunification with Cyprus.](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/jan/09/rising-anger-with-turkey-drives-calls-for-reunification-in-crisis-hit-northern-cyprus)
Nobody said Kosovo is similar to Northern Cyprus. They said that the reason Cyprus don't recognize it is similar to reasons why Romania, Slovakia and Spain don't recognize it. And that's that they have a big ass minority group whose ideas of independence would get legitimacy if the country recognized Kosovo.
Also, obviously there is a big difference between Hungarian minority in Slovakia which didn't say a shit about rejoining Hungary since nineties and Northern Cyprus which is de facto independent, but again, that's not what I am talking about.
Yes, we are. I thought "foreign" seemed a weird way to put it, glad I wasn't the only one. Also I'd rather refer to this group as Magyars, as "Hungarian" implies that we have some sort of connection to the country of Hungary, which most of us don't. But then again, "Magyar" isn't really a word in the English language as far as I can tell, so there's that
Lithuania has majority Polish regions, Latvia and Estonia majority Russian, Finland majority Swedish, Italy majority Austrian but it is not the obstacle. How are ethnic Hungarians different?
It's that half of Hungary is really bitter about ghe fact that hundreds of thousands and even millions of Hungarians live outside of Hungary. The neghbouring countries with Hungarian minority tend to have an anxious point of view regarding mdinorities. They don't like the idea of minority laws or ethnic autonomy because they fear that it might lead to independence, as it happend in Catalonia and Scotland.
It all started with the birth of nationalism in the 19th cantury. Hungarians maintained the idea of a French-like nationstate. The minorities of Hungary resisted assimilation, then claimed independence and/or union with their mother stare.
The wary policies of today started after WW1 when Hungary lost 2/3 of its territory and 1/3 of its ethnic Hungarians. During the interwar period, the sole Hungarian foreign policy goal was redrawing their borders and getting back at least the Hungarian majority lands. It was a somewhat succesful policy due to Mussolini's and Hitler's help, but this also meant that after the end of WW2, everything got redrawn according to the peace treaty of Trianon.
After WW2, there wasn't any serious Hungarian attempts to revise the borders. The communist regime was anxious to don't even talk about Hungarian minorities, so were the neghbouring communist regimes. Nothing changed with 1990 and the regime changes, the Hungarian elite even acknowledged the borders as they were. But the neighbouring countries did stay as anxious as before and avoided talks about autonomy. And hearing independence movements from other parts of Europe does make them more wary about their minorities.
It's not about Orban, although it's true that there is a number of Hungarians believing that the borders are unjust and that Hungary gor screwed over by the West and Orban loves to lean on their votes. But the really crazy revisionist aren't part of Orban's party because there's a separate far-right party in the Parliament, too.
Our politicians (and people sometimes) often tend towards a thing called "revisionism". It's the idea that the the Treaty of Trianon was unjust and it's terms should be revised, and it stuck with Hungarian politics since then. Nowadays no sensible person wants to reannex parts of the Carpathian basin, but still, the status of Hungarians living in historical areas (Transilvania, Southern Slovakia, Transcarpathia, Vojvodina for example) still remains an important question for right wing politics here. Tensions are already high enough, if these governments woud give out a statement of sympathy with some etnically suppressed people, it would give a good grabbing point for both the Hungarian government and those living on the other side of the border to push for general autonomy.
The problem with not giving autonomy is that it’s a double edged sword. I completely understand that it’s against radical right wing Hungarians but at the same time it’s fueling unjust feelings, and in the end there will be even more radical right wing Hungarians. If not the 12 years of right wing supermajory in Hungary proves this then I don’t know what is.
I completely agree with the double edged sword thing, just like mamy other things, Orbán and company managed to set up and/or exploit a situation in which doing nothing will slowly strenghten him, and doing anything would be a massive boost. I don't claim my comment is foolproof and unbiased, i just wrote a quick answer on what is the difference between the situations.
Be assured that in a different timeline, in which Orbán is not PM still they wouldn't recognize it.
\+Their constitution states that there cannot be autonomous regions inside Romania.
>\+Their constitution states that there cannot be autonomous regions inside Romania.
That doesn't really matter. Everyone (everyone sane, that is) knows that Tranyslvania is part of Romania and now that should be the end of the matter. But Transylvania and the "Tragedy of Trianon" is a tool the Hungarian right and far-right loves to use, and so they'll never stop harping on and on and on about "getting back Transylvania" and whatnot.
They were even supposedly going to get a portion of Ukraine, if putler had succeeded in his blitzkrieg.
Source: https://ukrainetoday.org/2022/07/24/putin-promised-orban-to-give-transcarpathia-to-hungary-feigin/
Also those who are spinning that this is Ukrainian propaganda, I have news for you, this is an issue that has caught people’s attention as early as 2014.
Source: https://www.fpri.org/article/2014/04/karpatalja-europes-next-crimea/
Edited
As much as I hate Orbán and the Hungarian (and every other flavor of) far right, I think that was just Russian propaganda trolling (more than once) and pandering to far-right sympathizers in Hungary, Poland, etc. Not even Orbán is insane enough (yet) to seriously consider wanting that area back, it's painfully underdeveloped and poor, there's no opportunities for Orbán and his cronies to embezzle anything from developing it.
They were all too happy to use it for their own domestic propaganda, though.
Without having read the linked article: how reliable is a Ukrainian report on such things? Media warn of anti-enemy propaganda on both sides - the Russian and Ukrainian one. Can we tell for sure that this promise actually happened? Are there reliable news agencies that are from neither country that have reported about this promise? Are there Hungarian sources that talk about the promise?
Ukraine has an ethnic Hungarian region too, in West Ukraine (Uzhhorod/Zakarpattia or Transcarpathia). There have been problems between the Ukrainian government and Orbán for years because of it, and it's a huge reason why, as we saw this year, Hungary went super hard against Ukraine. Orbán really is hardcore about pursuing Hungarian nationalism in the Hungarian minorities of other countries.
Edit: Added "Zakarpattia or Transcarpathia" for clarity
Worth noting that the Swedish-speaking population of Finland by far and large do not consider themselves to be “Swedes.” In fact you would be very hard-pressed to find someone who would consider themselves a Swede first and a Finn second from the population of those who speak Swedish as their first language here in Finland. They are Finns, and will tell you they are Finns, but that they just happen to speak Swedish, and they have their own subculture and community. When Finland plays Sweden in hockey, the Fennoswedes are definitely cheering for Finland alongside the monolingual Finnish-speakers of the country. Even the Ålanders by far and large do not want to be seen as Swedes, nor do they desire to be part of Sweden anymore. That movement is pretty much dead in the water. But they do want more and as much regional autonomy as they can get, since they have developed their own subnational cultural identity which is neither Swedish nor Finnish, and somewhat kind of Finland-Swedish but also simply just their own Ålandic.
It seems from the other comments, however, that this is not the case with the minority populations elsewhere you have mentioned. For example, I know firsthand from what I’ve heard from Estonian friends and acquaintances that the Russian-speaking population of Estonia by far and large do not consider themselves Estonians by any stretch of the imagination, and that virtually all of them firmly identify solely as “Russian.”
I was actually once naive enough to think that if you wanted to be independent, you could. Then I realized 99 % of people live their lives to control others, or are unknowlingly controlled themselves.
It's... really disgusting.
Honestly, politics as a battle of interests is really convoluted. Take one aspect of the Catalonia independence dispute. In the 1950s Spain was in a bad recession, Catalonia (adjacent France) was made the centerpiece of Spanish industrialization and tourism, pulling workers from across Spain. Now Catalonia complains they contribute more taxes than other regions, as a reason for independence. Spaniards will say it's a reason to pay it back to the less fortunate regions they boomed at the expense of. The idea of fair becomes rather subjective.
100% agree on politics being a battle of interests, however saying that Catalonia "boomed at the expense of..." that's quite a interested political statement by itself.
Might it be due to the geographical situation or given a wider existence of a powerful bourgeoisie class, Catalonia (and the Basque Country) were the first regions where the industrial revolution landed back in the 19th century, giving them a head start in terms of infrastructure and wealth creation vs the rest of the country.
Move to the 1950s, key projects like SEAT (which Franco wanted to be built in Extremadura) were once again finally placed around Barcelona not as any favor, but due to the pressure of international partners who again valued the location and the already existing infrastructure.
Then, treating independence a matter of taxes is rather narrow field of vision. There is a major cultural component, arguably dating to the medieval times when the Carolingian roots of Catalonia differentiated it from the rest of the peninsula, which played a major role in the growth of a separate identity (not better, not worst, just different), language and traditions.
Balkanizing state power into hundreds of little microstates is bad. Saarlandisn't powerful enough to tell Amazon or Monstano what to do or not do. Germany is. It'd be a race to the bottom and a complete destruction of democracy as we move power from elected legislatures to boardrooms.
States need to consolidate, not fracture.
One of the differences between Romanias Transylvania which is majority Hungarian that’s different than Kosovo and Catalonia is that by reuniting with Hungary would make it stuck inside Romania, which would be an actual disaster considering Romania is not in Schengen area (people can’t freely travel from Hungary to Romania, there is border control) and to solve this issue by connecting the land to Hungary would lead to majority Romanian areas in Hungary and then they would want independence. I honestly think Romania is safe from any independence movement/reunification in their largest foreign born region 🤣 because doing so would be catastrophic for so many people.
To be fair to Hungary in this regard, Austria and Italy concluded an agreement regarding Trent/Tyrol regarding the Austrian-majority region ceded to Italy in St. Germaine, creating an autonomous region. There is precedent for resolving this type of situation within the EU framework, Slovakia and Romania just have far less agreeable relations with Hungary.
As a native Romanian living close to the Hungarian-majority counties I can tell you this:
* in abstracto, I have absolutely nothing against autonomy, however,
* all cities and municipalities in Romania have a certain level of autonomy already, and, unfortunately, the ones in Harghita and Covasna are among the worst maintained in the country. Mind you, this is not due to lack of funding as funding is computed (over-simplification) based on the number of citizens living in said city/municipality, which leads me to:
* the only thing autonomy would do is to remove oversight, which would enable the corrupt local governance to siphon money indiscriminately
Again, I would have absolutely nothing against autonomy, if the removal of oversight would mean things would get better for that population. But that is not the case. It would just be used as a tool to siphon money from the Romanian government without actually giving anything to their local population.
>the only thing autonomy would do is to remove oversight, which would enable the corrupt local governance to siphon money indiscriminately
This is really not true, as it depends on how autonomy would be organized. Example is Vojvodina in Serbia, which is still under oversight of central government and depends on it for good part of funding, but it also has right to colect there own funds for there "organic jobs".
Very true. While they do have a Hungarian political party that represents Hungarians (Democratic Alliance of Hungarians in Romania) they do lack a lot of autonomy like like their own unique parliament and laws with far weaker autonomy than Scotland for example which has been allowed to pass every law apart from the current gender recognition bill, and with its own electoral system for their parliament it’s quite independent from the UK government. You can’t say the same for Transylvania.
Kosovo has majority Serb areas so I'm not sure how that's a difference.
Transylvania does border Hungary, even if the Hungarian minority is further in.
> Transylvania does border Hungary, even if the Hungarian minority is further in.
*Crișana* borders Hungary. The *real*, historical Transylvania, where the Szeklers live is like 200 km away from the Hungarian border.
And Nagorno Karabakh isn’t in chaos 😂. There was sadly a war there in 2020 and it’s likely the conflict between Azerbaijan and Armenia won’t any time soon especially since Armenia has a much weaker military and generally a smaller and weaker country has its ally Russia distracted with Ukraine unable to send proper peace keeping forces.
There was a recent conflict in 2022 but I don’t think they are calling it a war yet because they were smaller than the attack in 2020 so a lot of media headlines call them deadly border skirmishes.
No, Romania and Serbia are very good friends and have been for centuries. Romania was the only country not to invade Serbia in 1941 and the only NATO member who refused to let the US use their airfields to bomb Serbia in 1999
Spain does not recognize the independence of Kosovo because it was carried out in the old style: a unilateral declaration (non-negotiated) supported first by the United States, against international law, which sets a dangerous precedent (on the other hand, Spain, like other European countries, does the ordered by the United States)
One might would think stripping countries populated by their nationals, then adding them to a different country isn't the best idea, and will cause problems in the future.
Our ancestors surely were not blessed with foresight.
All of them makes sense. Spain doesn’t want unilateral declarations because of catalonia, romania and slovakia because of ethnic hungarians, and greece (ig?) is because of the cyprus situation, and supporting kosovo and not northern cyprus can be seen as hypocritical
The Cyprus issue is the most relevant thing for Greece. Second is the Muslim minority in Thrace. Third is the relationship with Serbia.
Kosovo's unilateral declaration of independence can be seen as a precedent for both Northern Cyprus today, and Western Thrace in the future asking for the recognition of their independence.
Serbia's trade and alliance with Greece is irrelevant and mostly important to a small minority of far right ultra orthodox Greeks.
Comparing Kosovo with "northern Cyprus" makes no sense whatsoever. You wouldn't compare it with the "Republic of Donetsk" would you? That would be a less inaccurate (but still garbage) comparison.
I disagree, northern cyprus and kosovo are similar states in how they exist and how they came about, but exist for different reasons. Same with the donbass republics.
The different reasons are what matters, kosovo was an area with a ethnic minority (that formed a majority there) that declared independence with the support of a foreign force, who had stepped in to stop a genocide.
Northern cyprus was an area with an ethnic minority that formed a majority in the north (although it was much more heterogenous than kosovo). And a foreign power stepped in to "liberate" the area and "stop a potential genocide" in the face of enosis, although it is obviously just a power grab by turkey.
The donbass republics are the same as northern cyprus pretty much. Russian speakers are backed by foreign force after huge political event and drummed up to somehow be comparible to genocide.
So they’re different in the why they exist, but not the how they exist, and the why is also justified the same, even if it really isn’t. I’m not saying kosovo is the same, but in the eyes of turkish nationalists, and probably also many muslims in general, it will appear so. Because they don’t see turkey as just having made a client state in an obvious landgrab. They see it as freeing an opressed people from a ill intentioned state that would persecute muslims. Again, i don’t believe that to be the case, just explaining the rational.
And if greece acknowledged kosovo, then turkey could say, "well kosovo are muslims freed thanks to military intervention from a hostile state, so is northern cyprus! Everyone should recognize them to, if not your a hypocrite!"
"Northern cyprus was an area with an ethnic minority that formed a majority in the north"
That's not true at all. Turkish cypriots were about 20% of the population of the north, just like in the rest of the island. The north/south divide was entirely artificial, it had nothing to do with actual demographics. Compare this with Kosovo being 95% Albanian and you see why this comparison makes no sense.
Also you should add the other huge difference, which is Turkey mass colonising Cyprus with settlers (mainland Turks), which currently are the majority in the North, outnumbering the actual Turkish cypriots. Kosovo is actually inhabited by kosovars, not illegal Albanians settlers.
All in all there is good reason why Kosovo is recognised by half the planet while northern Cyprus is recognised by literally no one but Turkey, not even turkey's closest allies. Comparing the two is absurd.
~~Wouldn’t the countries in gray like the UK or Norway not recognize it by default?~~
Actually the UK and Norway *do* recognize Kosovo’s independence, I guess they are in gray because not in the EU.
Because the Albanian and Kosovo football teams are both pretty bad, we treat Switzerland as our own and Switzerland's performances are the best we'll get lol
UK absolutely supports Kosovo, so much so that some kids in Kosovo were named Tonibler after Tony Blair, the UK PM at the time of NATO's intervention in the Kosovo War
Well for Greece it has to do more with the Cypriot Issue, than our friendship with Serbia. Also to a far lesser extent with the Pomak and Turkish minorities in Western Thrace.
Greece: the Cyprus issue of course. Kosovars are free to enter with their passports but there will be no recognition before Cyprus issue is resolved. The bilateral relations between Greece and Serbia aren’t stellar, after what transpired in the 1990s and ‘00s, Serbs are extremely opportunistic, cynical and nobody’s friend.
>The bilateral relations between Greece and Serbia aren’t stellar, after what transpired in the 1990s and ‘00s, Serbs are extremely opportunistic, cynical and nobody’s friend.
I am Greek and I have no idea what you're taking about. Our relations with Serbia are stellar.
At the end of WWI about 2/3 of Hungary's then-territory was given to other nations, territories which contained a massive ethnic hungarian population who are mostly still there.
It has nothing to do with Kosovo independence in and by itself, more like the relevant countries don't want to support an independence movement when they themselves have somewhat contested territories.
What does Catalonia have to do with recognizing Kosovo? Do you mean that Spain recognizing an independent Kosovo would force them to concede to the possibility of an independent Catalonia?
Not so much to recognize an independent Catalonia, now quite implausible, as admitting that a part of a country can declare independence unilaterally (something that Spanish government denies in the Catalan case).
The official position of the Spanish government is that in the moment Serbia and Kosovo reach an agreement, Spain will recognize Kosovo.
Yes, because Kosovo independence legitimation comes from the results of the referendum, which were a 99% of yes with a 87% turnout, instead of coming from their “owners’ permission” (Serbia).
Meaning setting a precedent that winning a independence referendum in a region, legitimises its independence.
The equivalent of a “bilateral agreement” would be like when Scotland was allowed by United Kingdom to carry out their independence referendum. This was the exception, though, as 99% of independences are unilateral.
Well, you are right about the Russian propaganda but at the same time you can't say that there's no truth in it, after all are similar cases (not the same but close enough).
Ah yes, it's completely arbitrary that Serbia cares more about the region that's considered the heart of the country that's been part of the country since it's inception more important than Slovenia, where Serbs have never lived nor had control of for any period of history other than Yugoslavia /s
Those questions are already asked and the answer is always no. Our PM said it himself last week. And most here don't think about Kosovo or even know that we don't recognise it
You don't think about Kosovo or know much about it but you can almost guarantee that Catalan separatists would be all over it if the Spanish government did choose to recognise Kosovo tomorrow, it would give their campaign a lot of legitimacy and precedence to push more for independence.
Oh I know that, everyone knows that. I'm just saying that the government not recognising Kosovo is not talked about and there's not really any push to force to government to do it
Why not just include all of Europe instead of just the EU. Especially all the Balkan countries being missing is annoying since Kosovo is a balkan country.
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Kosovo's independence serves that exact purpose and no other. An artificial state carved out of another country to serve USA interests in the Balkans and to fuck that same country for refusing to align with Washington ideas.
I honestly don’t give a fuck about the territorial integrity of Serbia, but also think the ethnic Serbian enclaves of Kosovo should be able to remain with Serbia. Because also fuck the territorial integrity of Kosovo.
The thing is. There is a Albanian minority in the south of serbia equal in size of the serb minority in Kosovo.
Both should profit the same way. Either same guarenteed human rights for both or land swap.
Lets be real here man. Just by looking at your posts it’s hard to take you serious. Anyways, what Albanians in southern Serbia? What are you talking about?
Because intellectuals use “manufactured consent” when it suits them. When Brexit happened it was manufactured consent, when 60% want it reversed it’s will of the people
Crimea didn't demand independence. It was invaded. The vote (only between an independent Crimean nation that would be incapable of surviving and joining Russia) was held in a way that does not lead to an even remotely trustworthy result. Also Serbia under Milosevic had started four horrible wars and had to be prevented from starting a fifth.
First, the independence movement in Catalonia has barely reached 50% of the votes (and is smaller nowadays). Second, Spain isn't against the lawful separation of parts.
The first referendum in Scotland was authorized by the British Parliament. That's OK with the Spanish government.
Now, despite Sturgeon asking for a new referendum, the UK government has refused to authorize it. So, Spain would be now against a Scottish secession if they do it unilaterally.
Not surprisingly, all the countries that don't recognize Kosovo are nations that have independent provinces of their own that want to breakaway because they're also being repressed by their respective governments.
Wrong, Slovakia has probably the most pro-minority laws in EU because we had ethnic hungarian party in our parliament/goverment. Problem is that Hungary is still butthurt about trianon and still plays with thought to unite old empire, there is no wonder that Orban likes Putin.
> Not surprisingly, all the countries that don't recognize Kosovo are nations that have independent provinces of their own that want to breakaway because they're also being repressed by their respective governments.
repressed? Catalonia? The hungarians in Romania and Slovakia? jfc.
do you know what "repressed" means?
Using police forces to beat up peaceful voters, politically imprisoning activists and politicians, spying on political opponents, journalists, activists and lawyers... Yes, repression is a good term.
You have no idea what you are talking about, but here you are submitting ignorant opinions. There is no ''repression'' in Spain, Romania, Slovakia. In fact they have some of the most pro-minorities laws in Europe. France, for example, is one that offers little to no minority rights, yet is supports the independence declaration of Kosovo. So, as you see, things are not at all as you imagine them.
The countries that oppose the recognition usually have several cumulative reasons in mind: the fact that it did not respect international law (according to it the only legal separation is through democratic and peaceful steps, there has to be some agreement between the 2 sides, there has to be strong peace treaties signed, etc. For example Czechia and Slovakia separated according to the international law and everyone accepted it. Including all these states), the fact it can be used as a dangerous precedent that could shatter EU's unity, peace and bring chaos and destabilization (Russia already used Kosovo as a precedent to make illegal territorial grabs from Ukraine and started a war that destabilizes the entire Europe, especially the eastern one), the fact Russia could (and already did) fund extremist groups and separatist movements across Europe (no need to make things worse than they already are), some of these countries had good relations with Serbia throughout history, etc, etc, etc.
"Repression" is the wrong word - but Spain, Romania, etc recognising Kosovo independence would be implicitly validating their own local independence movements.
It really is not any deeper than that.
In Spain, the majority of the population considers the de facto independence of Kosovo contrary to international law. I'm glad we're on the correct side of the map for once.
I’m Spanish and I’m pretty sure most people have barely heard about Kosovo, and have absolutely no opinion on this topic (or they don’t even know about it).
Fuck biased interpretation of international law. Every land and their people has the right of self-determination by UN, UDHR and the International Bill of Human Rights
Which international law is that? I was under the impression that the United Nations charter promotes self-determination and equal rights for all peoples, including national minorities.
You have a bit of a point regarding Crimea, given the demographic makeup there in 2014.
There's no great evidence that the Donbass wanted to rejoin Russia.
If they want to have free and fair elections with international observers without Russian monkeys intimidating voters, then absolutely.
But Russia is too scared to let that happen, gee I wonder why. :)
Ukraine also refused to hold a referendum when it still controlled Crimea. In any case, independent pollsters have consistently showed Crimean support for independence, albeit not by the margins in Russia's referendum.
It honestly interests me what workable alternatives to a future independant Kosovo would be. Should Kosovo's elected government just step aside and it be governed by Serbia? What realistic endgame is there that doesn't have some sort of independant Kosovo?
If the world is okay with Crimea (90% Russian) being ruled by Ukraine, why not Kosovo under Serbia? There really is no consistency on this issue. It is all political interests.
Just as Kosovo is de facto independant, Crimea is de-facto under Russian control. And I wouldn't wish the method by which the Crimea question is being resolved - a major land war - on any other country.
What everyone, and I mean everyone, knows is, that Kosovo will never be ruled by serbia again.
Either Kosovo stays independent as it is or it unites with Albania (though the Kosovan Constitution forbids any territorial changes or unifications...).
I really do not get why Kosovo even exists. It is not a separate nation and in a few decades, they will for sure merge with Albania.
On the other side, you have nations with millions of people without their own state, e.g. Kurds.
I can tell you why Romania does not recognise Kosovo: we have a couple of regions in Romania with ethnic Hungarians in majority (Harghita, Covasna). Recognizing Kosovo will bring problems with Romanian vision regarding regions with high foreign population. We do not recognize Kosovo by omission: we do not have an official opinion. I think that is the same situation as in Spain and Catalonia.
Same with Slovakia.
Slovakia and who?
Hungary
AHH thx)
[удалено]
I'm native Hungarian speaker living in Slovakia. Large majority of Hungarian minority doesn't want to be a part of Hungary. I think Slovakia should recognise Kosovo.
I don't think that matters to Hungary. Just look at Russia-Ukraine. One of the reasons Russia wants Ukraine is so that all Russian speakers are united under one state, even though literally nobody in Ukraine wants to be part of Russia.
And to Russians, Ukrainian speakers are just bad Russian speakers.
Tbf almost everyone in Ukraine speaks Russian due to how prevalent it is (business, military, etc.)- even in my friend group (Ukrainian, Russians, Armenian, Bulgarian) we speak Russian frequently because it’s easier than English sometimes Although that’s changing a lot now due to laws, it’ll be interesting to see how it plays out
Luckily for them, Hungary's military is a joke. Knowing Hungarian history, any kind of attempted annexation would quickly end up in Slovakia getting more territory.
Most things about Hungary are a joke.
The pro Great Hungarian Empire sentiment is till very strong in Hungary but not that so much in Slovakia. At last half of the Hungarians in Slovakia don’t vote local Hungarian parties.
Same with Spain and Catalonia
Probably also similar in Cyprus with the Turks in the North of the country
Is Greece's non-recognition also tied to the situation in Cyprus? or do they have regional independence movements like Spain?
yes but also greece and serbia have had good relations historically and they support each other
We even tried forming a union
Really? Like Greece joining Yugoslavia or something else? I’d love to read more about it.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek%E2%80%93Yugoslav\_confederation#:\~:text=The%20Greek%E2%80%93Yugoslav%20confederation%20or,Greek%20government%2Din%2Dexile](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek%E2%80%93Yugoslav_confederation#:~:text=The%20Greek%E2%80%93Yugoslav%20confederation%20or,Greek%20government%2Din%2Dexile).
Thank you!
It's about Cyprus, there aren't any independence movements in Greece. Source: I'm actually a Greek, unlike these people who are talking about some supposed Albanian or Macedonian independence movements
This might be a reach but possibly Greece might have beef with Albania. I don't think Cyprus is very relevant because that was a Turkish invasion to prevent Cyprus from uniting with Greece and taking pretty much all the remaining useful territorial water Turkey had and putting it directly in Greek hands, rather than any kind of independence movement.
That might be part of it but I think the main reason is Orthodox solidarity between Greece and Serbia. Greece has historically argued Serbia's perspective within NATO and the EU going back to the breakup of Yugoslavia.
Cyprus situation isn't similar. Northern Cyprus isn't recognized by any nation on Earth apart from Turkey. On the other hand Kosovo is recognized by 101 United Nation states. [Even the Turkish Cypriots themselves want reunification with Cyprus.](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/jan/09/rising-anger-with-turkey-drives-calls-for-reunification-in-crisis-hit-northern-cyprus)
Not recognised though many do direct business with it and its government, the US funds universities on the territory.
Of course they do, it's like Hispaniola, half the island is a lot better off than the other half.
Nobody said Kosovo is similar to Northern Cyprus. They said that the reason Cyprus don't recognize it is similar to reasons why Romania, Slovakia and Spain don't recognize it. And that's that they have a big ass minority group whose ideas of independence would get legitimacy if the country recognized Kosovo. Also, obviously there is a big difference between Hungarian minority in Slovakia which didn't say a shit about rejoining Hungary since nineties and Northern Cyprus which is de facto independent, but again, that's not what I am talking about.
I think it has more to do with Greeks highly favouring Serbia (I say as a Cypriot)
Why do you refer to ethnic Hungarians in Romania as “foreign population”? Are they Romanian citizens too?
well they dont consider themselves romanians, they consider themselves either szekely or just hungarian however by nationality, yes they are romanian
Yes, we are. I thought "foreign" seemed a weird way to put it, glad I wasn't the only one. Also I'd rather refer to this group as Magyars, as "Hungarian" implies that we have some sort of connection to the country of Hungary, which most of us don't. But then again, "Magyar" isn't really a word in the English language as far as I can tell, so there's that
I'm glad that you guys are my fellow romanians.
Same! It's the shared experiences that connect us rather than separate us. I'd give you a high five but my I can't put my hand through the phone.
Lithuania has majority Polish regions, Latvia and Estonia majority Russian, Finland majority Swedish, Italy majority Austrian but it is not the obstacle. How are ethnic Hungarians different?
It's that half of Hungary is really bitter about ghe fact that hundreds of thousands and even millions of Hungarians live outside of Hungary. The neghbouring countries with Hungarian minority tend to have an anxious point of view regarding mdinorities. They don't like the idea of minority laws or ethnic autonomy because they fear that it might lead to independence, as it happend in Catalonia and Scotland. It all started with the birth of nationalism in the 19th cantury. Hungarians maintained the idea of a French-like nationstate. The minorities of Hungary resisted assimilation, then claimed independence and/or union with their mother stare. The wary policies of today started after WW1 when Hungary lost 2/3 of its territory and 1/3 of its ethnic Hungarians. During the interwar period, the sole Hungarian foreign policy goal was redrawing their borders and getting back at least the Hungarian majority lands. It was a somewhat succesful policy due to Mussolini's and Hitler's help, but this also meant that after the end of WW2, everything got redrawn according to the peace treaty of Trianon. After WW2, there wasn't any serious Hungarian attempts to revise the borders. The communist regime was anxious to don't even talk about Hungarian minorities, so were the neghbouring communist regimes. Nothing changed with 1990 and the regime changes, the Hungarian elite even acknowledged the borders as they were. But the neighbouring countries did stay as anxious as before and avoided talks about autonomy. And hearing independence movements from other parts of Europe does make them more wary about their minorities. It's not about Orban, although it's true that there is a number of Hungarians believing that the borders are unjust and that Hungary gor screwed over by the West and Orban loves to lean on their votes. But the really crazy revisionist aren't part of Orban's party because there's a separate far-right party in the Parliament, too.
Our politicians (and people sometimes) often tend towards a thing called "revisionism". It's the idea that the the Treaty of Trianon was unjust and it's terms should be revised, and it stuck with Hungarian politics since then. Nowadays no sensible person wants to reannex parts of the Carpathian basin, but still, the status of Hungarians living in historical areas (Transilvania, Southern Slovakia, Transcarpathia, Vojvodina for example) still remains an important question for right wing politics here. Tensions are already high enough, if these governments woud give out a statement of sympathy with some etnically suppressed people, it would give a good grabbing point for both the Hungarian government and those living on the other side of the border to push for general autonomy.
The problem with not giving autonomy is that it’s a double edged sword. I completely understand that it’s against radical right wing Hungarians but at the same time it’s fueling unjust feelings, and in the end there will be even more radical right wing Hungarians. If not the 12 years of right wing supermajory in Hungary proves this then I don’t know what is.
I completely agree with the double edged sword thing, just like mamy other things, Orbán and company managed to set up and/or exploit a situation in which doing nothing will slowly strenghten him, and doing anything would be a massive boost. I don't claim my comment is foolproof and unbiased, i just wrote a quick answer on what is the difference between the situations.
Orbán
Be assured that in a different timeline, in which Orbán is not PM still they wouldn't recognize it. \+Their constitution states that there cannot be autonomous regions inside Romania.
So does Lithuanian. In early 1990s local Polish politicians were imprisoned for sedition and trying to establish autonomy.
>\+Their constitution states that there cannot be autonomous regions inside Romania. That doesn't really matter. Everyone (everyone sane, that is) knows that Tranyslvania is part of Romania and now that should be the end of the matter. But Transylvania and the "Tragedy of Trianon" is a tool the Hungarian right and far-right loves to use, and so they'll never stop harping on and on and on about "getting back Transylvania" and whatnot.
They were even supposedly going to get a portion of Ukraine, if putler had succeeded in his blitzkrieg. Source: https://ukrainetoday.org/2022/07/24/putin-promised-orban-to-give-transcarpathia-to-hungary-feigin/ Also those who are spinning that this is Ukrainian propaganda, I have news for you, this is an issue that has caught people’s attention as early as 2014. Source: https://www.fpri.org/article/2014/04/karpatalja-europes-next-crimea/ Edited
As much as I hate Orbán and the Hungarian (and every other flavor of) far right, I think that was just Russian propaganda trolling (more than once) and pandering to far-right sympathizers in Hungary, Poland, etc. Not even Orbán is insane enough (yet) to seriously consider wanting that area back, it's painfully underdeveloped and poor, there's no opportunities for Orbán and his cronies to embezzle anything from developing it. They were all too happy to use it for their own domestic propaganda, though.
Without having read the linked article: how reliable is a Ukrainian report on such things? Media warn of anti-enemy propaganda on both sides - the Russian and Ukrainian one. Can we tell for sure that this promise actually happened? Are there reliable news agencies that are from neither country that have reported about this promise? Are there Hungarian sources that talk about the promise?
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heck even Bulgaria has significant majority Turkish area. Erdoğan?
Erdogan only claims Berlin and Northrhine-Westfalia lol.
The TRUE turkish homeland!
Universal excuse. Very nice. Never mind that this problem preceded Orban by decades.
Ukraine has an ethnic Hungarian region too, in West Ukraine (Uzhhorod/Zakarpattia or Transcarpathia). There have been problems between the Ukrainian government and Orbán for years because of it, and it's a huge reason why, as we saw this year, Hungary went super hard against Ukraine. Orbán really is hardcore about pursuing Hungarian nationalism in the Hungarian minorities of other countries. Edit: Added "Zakarpattia or Transcarpathia" for clarity
Much to do with relations. Denmark recognise Kosovo, and there are still two regions going for independence in the Kingdom. Denmark don't mind that.
Just like the UK.
Worth noting that the Swedish-speaking population of Finland by far and large do not consider themselves to be “Swedes.” In fact you would be very hard-pressed to find someone who would consider themselves a Swede first and a Finn second from the population of those who speak Swedish as their first language here in Finland. They are Finns, and will tell you they are Finns, but that they just happen to speak Swedish, and they have their own subculture and community. When Finland plays Sweden in hockey, the Fennoswedes are definitely cheering for Finland alongside the monolingual Finnish-speakers of the country. Even the Ålanders by far and large do not want to be seen as Swedes, nor do they desire to be part of Sweden anymore. That movement is pretty much dead in the water. But they do want more and as much regional autonomy as they can get, since they have developed their own subnational cultural identity which is neither Swedish nor Finnish, and somewhat kind of Finland-Swedish but also simply just their own Ålandic. It seems from the other comments, however, that this is not the case with the minority populations elsewhere you have mentioned. For example, I know firsthand from what I’ve heard from Estonian friends and acquaintances that the Russian-speaking population of Estonia by far and large do not consider themselves Estonians by any stretch of the imagination, and that virtually all of them firmly identify solely as “Russian.”
I was actually once naive enough to think that if you wanted to be independent, you could. Then I realized 99 % of people live their lives to control others, or are unknowlingly controlled themselves. It's... really disgusting.
Honestly, politics as a battle of interests is really convoluted. Take one aspect of the Catalonia independence dispute. In the 1950s Spain was in a bad recession, Catalonia (adjacent France) was made the centerpiece of Spanish industrialization and tourism, pulling workers from across Spain. Now Catalonia complains they contribute more taxes than other regions, as a reason for independence. Spaniards will say it's a reason to pay it back to the less fortunate regions they boomed at the expense of. The idea of fair becomes rather subjective.
That... adds some nuance. Thanks. I had no idea.
100% agree on politics being a battle of interests, however saying that Catalonia "boomed at the expense of..." that's quite a interested political statement by itself. Might it be due to the geographical situation or given a wider existence of a powerful bourgeoisie class, Catalonia (and the Basque Country) were the first regions where the industrial revolution landed back in the 19th century, giving them a head start in terms of infrastructure and wealth creation vs the rest of the country. Move to the 1950s, key projects like SEAT (which Franco wanted to be built in Extremadura) were once again finally placed around Barcelona not as any favor, but due to the pressure of international partners who again valued the location and the already existing infrastructure. Then, treating independence a matter of taxes is rather narrow field of vision. There is a major cultural component, arguably dating to the medieval times when the Carolingian roots of Catalonia differentiated it from the rest of the peninsula, which played a major role in the growth of a separate identity (not better, not worst, just different), language and traditions.
It really is. Why is it not like this? If Hong Kong wants to be independent, why can't it be? Someone else wanting to control it is NOT a good reason
Balkanizing state power into hundreds of little microstates is bad. Saarlandisn't powerful enough to tell Amazon or Monstano what to do or not do. Germany is. It'd be a race to the bottom and a complete destruction of democracy as we move power from elected legislatures to boardrooms. States need to consolidate, not fracture.
Turkey recognizes Kosovo with it's nearly breaking Kurdish population
We also have good relations with Serbia, they are the neighbour we get along the best with
One of the differences between Romanias Transylvania which is majority Hungarian that’s different than Kosovo and Catalonia is that by reuniting with Hungary would make it stuck inside Romania, which would be an actual disaster considering Romania is not in Schengen area (people can’t freely travel from Hungary to Romania, there is border control) and to solve this issue by connecting the land to Hungary would lead to majority Romanian areas in Hungary and then they would want independence. I honestly think Romania is safe from any independence movement/reunification in their largest foreign born region 🤣 because doing so would be catastrophic for so many people.
To be fair to Hungary in this regard, Austria and Italy concluded an agreement regarding Trent/Tyrol regarding the Austrian-majority region ceded to Italy in St. Germaine, creating an autonomous region. There is precedent for resolving this type of situation within the EU framework, Slovakia and Romania just have far less agreeable relations with Hungary.
Nobody is afraid of independence/reunification. The thing that Romanian government does not want to grant is autonomy.
As a native Romanian living close to the Hungarian-majority counties I can tell you this: * in abstracto, I have absolutely nothing against autonomy, however, * all cities and municipalities in Romania have a certain level of autonomy already, and, unfortunately, the ones in Harghita and Covasna are among the worst maintained in the country. Mind you, this is not due to lack of funding as funding is computed (over-simplification) based on the number of citizens living in said city/municipality, which leads me to: * the only thing autonomy would do is to remove oversight, which would enable the corrupt local governance to siphon money indiscriminately Again, I would have absolutely nothing against autonomy, if the removal of oversight would mean things would get better for that population. But that is not the case. It would just be used as a tool to siphon money from the Romanian government without actually giving anything to their local population.
>the only thing autonomy would do is to remove oversight, which would enable the corrupt local governance to siphon money indiscriminately This is really not true, as it depends on how autonomy would be organized. Example is Vojvodina in Serbia, which is still under oversight of central government and depends on it for good part of funding, but it also has right to colect there own funds for there "organic jobs".
I would be completely fine with such an autonomy but this is not what this region is after in Romania's case.
Very true. While they do have a Hungarian political party that represents Hungarians (Democratic Alliance of Hungarians in Romania) they do lack a lot of autonomy like like their own unique parliament and laws with far weaker autonomy than Scotland for example which has been allowed to pass every law apart from the current gender recognition bill, and with its own electoral system for their parliament it’s quite independent from the UK government. You can’t say the same for Transylvania.
Kosovo has majority Serb areas so I'm not sure how that's a difference. Transylvania does border Hungary, even if the Hungarian minority is further in.
> Transylvania does border Hungary, even if the Hungarian minority is further in. *Crișana* borders Hungary. The *real*, historical Transylvania, where the Szeklers live is like 200 km away from the Hungarian border.
Ever heard of Nagorno-Karabakh?
And Nagorno Karabakh isn’t in chaos 😂. There was sadly a war there in 2020 and it’s likely the conflict between Azerbaijan and Armenia won’t any time soon especially since Armenia has a much weaker military and generally a smaller and weaker country has its ally Russia distracted with Ukraine unable to send proper peace keeping forces.
Isn't there a war in there *right now*?
There was a recent conflict in 2022 but I don’t think they are calling it a war yet because they were smaller than the attack in 2020 so a lot of media headlines call them deadly border skirmishes.
No, Romania and Serbia are very good friends and have been for centuries. Romania was the only country not to invade Serbia in 1941 and the only NATO member who refused to let the US use their airfields to bomb Serbia in 1999
Romania wasn’t part of NATO in 1999
That too.
Spain does not recognize the independence of Kosovo because it was carried out in the old style: a unilateral declaration (non-negotiated) supported first by the United States, against international law, which sets a dangerous precedent (on the other hand, Spain, like other European countries, does the ordered by the United States)
That and Catalonia and Basque Country, of course.
Domestic politics fucking with international ones, one has to love it....
One might would think stripping countries populated by their nationals, then adding them to a different country isn't the best idea, and will cause problems in the future. Our ancestors surely were not blessed with foresight.
All of them makes sense. Spain doesn’t want unilateral declarations because of catalonia, romania and slovakia because of ethnic hungarians, and greece (ig?) is because of the cyprus situation, and supporting kosovo and not northern cyprus can be seen as hypocritical
Greece doesn't recognise Kosovo to preserve good relations between Serbia and Greece. The Cyprus issue is not relevant.
The Cyprus issue is the most relevant thing for Greece. Second is the Muslim minority in Thrace. Third is the relationship with Serbia. Kosovo's unilateral declaration of independence can be seen as a precedent for both Northern Cyprus today, and Western Thrace in the future asking for the recognition of their independence. Serbia's trade and alliance with Greece is irrelevant and mostly important to a small minority of far right ultra orthodox Greeks.
Comparing Kosovo with "northern Cyprus" makes no sense whatsoever. You wouldn't compare it with the "Republic of Donetsk" would you? That would be a less inaccurate (but still garbage) comparison.
I disagree, northern cyprus and kosovo are similar states in how they exist and how they came about, but exist for different reasons. Same with the donbass republics. The different reasons are what matters, kosovo was an area with a ethnic minority (that formed a majority there) that declared independence with the support of a foreign force, who had stepped in to stop a genocide. Northern cyprus was an area with an ethnic minority that formed a majority in the north (although it was much more heterogenous than kosovo). And a foreign power stepped in to "liberate" the area and "stop a potential genocide" in the face of enosis, although it is obviously just a power grab by turkey. The donbass republics are the same as northern cyprus pretty much. Russian speakers are backed by foreign force after huge political event and drummed up to somehow be comparible to genocide. So they’re different in the why they exist, but not the how they exist, and the why is also justified the same, even if it really isn’t. I’m not saying kosovo is the same, but in the eyes of turkish nationalists, and probably also many muslims in general, it will appear so. Because they don’t see turkey as just having made a client state in an obvious landgrab. They see it as freeing an opressed people from a ill intentioned state that would persecute muslims. Again, i don’t believe that to be the case, just explaining the rational. And if greece acknowledged kosovo, then turkey could say, "well kosovo are muslims freed thanks to military intervention from a hostile state, so is northern cyprus! Everyone should recognize them to, if not your a hypocrite!"
"Northern cyprus was an area with an ethnic minority that formed a majority in the north" That's not true at all. Turkish cypriots were about 20% of the population of the north, just like in the rest of the island. The north/south divide was entirely artificial, it had nothing to do with actual demographics. Compare this with Kosovo being 95% Albanian and you see why this comparison makes no sense. Also you should add the other huge difference, which is Turkey mass colonising Cyprus with settlers (mainland Turks), which currently are the majority in the North, outnumbering the actual Turkish cypriots. Kosovo is actually inhabited by kosovars, not illegal Albanians settlers. All in all there is good reason why Kosovo is recognised by half the planet while northern Cyprus is recognised by literally no one but Turkey, not even turkey's closest allies. Comparing the two is absurd.
~~Wouldn’t the countries in gray like the UK or Norway not recognize it by default?~~ Actually the UK and Norway *do* recognize Kosovo’s independence, I guess they are in gray because not in the EU.
Anyone know what switzerland thinks of kosovo?
Switzerland supports Kosovo so hard that the footballgames between switzerland and serbia are like derbies. :D
That’s also because a few of their players are from Kosovo or Albania
A lot of them, and bcs of it they receive a lot of hate from Serbians Source: Am Serbian
Because the Albanian and Kosovo football teams are both pretty bad, we treat Switzerland as our own and Switzerland's performances are the best we'll get lol
Yea ik i saw that lmao
Also recognise them.
yes
So If you have the data then make it Europe and not EU. What’s so magical about the EU? Or are you just trying to make a political comment?
UK absolutely supports Kosovo, so much so that some kids in Kosovo were named Tonibler after Tony Blair, the UK PM at the time of NATO's intervention in the Kosovo War
Turkey also.
Spain: Catalonia Slovakia: Southern Slovakia (Hungarians) Romania: Székelyland (Hungarians) Greece: her Serbian boyfriend Cyprus: Northern Cyprus (Turks)
Well for Greece it has to do more with the Cypriot Issue, than our friendship with Serbia. Also to a far lesser extent with the Pomak and Turkish minorities in Western Thrace.
Greece: the Cyprus issue of course. Kosovars are free to enter with their passports but there will be no recognition before Cyprus issue is resolved. The bilateral relations between Greece and Serbia aren’t stellar, after what transpired in the 1990s and ‘00s, Serbs are extremely opportunistic, cynical and nobody’s friend.
>The bilateral relations between Greece and Serbia aren’t stellar, after what transpired in the 1990s and ‘00s, Serbs are extremely opportunistic, cynical and nobody’s friend. I am Greek and I have no idea what you're taking about. Our relations with Serbia are stellar.
I like how you generalize entire nation, good job.
We are talking about politics here, governments. Serbs and Greeks on a citizen level usually get along pretty well.
Oh sorry then, my mistake. Fuck our government! Worst scum on the Earth!
Do Serbs really feel this way, even when the Greeks were the only NATO nation to not participate in the bombing of Serbia?
Of course not, and I am surprised to read the comment above. In all polls in Serbia, Greece (and Greeks) are the favourites
What's the deal with Hungarians and Kosovo independence, coming from a non-european?
At the end of WWI about 2/3 of Hungary's then-territory was given to other nations, territories which contained a massive ethnic hungarian population who are mostly still there. It has nothing to do with Kosovo independence in and by itself, more like the relevant countries don't want to support an independence movement when they themselves have somewhat contested territories.
What does Catalonia have to do with recognizing Kosovo? Do you mean that Spain recognizing an independent Kosovo would force them to concede to the possibility of an independent Catalonia?
Not so much to recognize an independent Catalonia, now quite implausible, as admitting that a part of a country can declare independence unilaterally (something that Spanish government denies in the Catalan case). The official position of the Spanish government is that in the moment Serbia and Kosovo reach an agreement, Spain will recognize Kosovo.
Pretty much. It would set a precedent
Yes, because Kosovo independence legitimation comes from the results of the referendum, which were a 99% of yes with a 87% turnout, instead of coming from their “owners’ permission” (Serbia). Meaning setting a precedent that winning a independence referendum in a region, legitimises its independence. The equivalent of a “bilateral agreement” would be like when Scotland was allowed by United Kingdom to carry out their independence referendum. This was the exception, though, as 99% of independences are unilateral.
Sorry what referendum are you talking about. Kosovos independence was declared in their parliament without referendum.
Kosovo - Pandora's box for changing borders, ignoring territorial integrity in 21st century Europe.
No wonder why Spain in so twitchy...
Unfortunately, the case of Kosovo is used by russian propaganda to justify the annexation of Crimea.
Well, you are right about the Russian propaganda but at the same time you can't say that there's no truth in it, after all are similar cases (not the same but close enough).
You seriously don’t see the similarities ???
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Slovenia was state inside Yugoslavia , Kosovo is just autonomous region inside Yugoslav state of Serbia
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Then why Bosnia still exists when both Croats and Serbians don't want to live there
Ah yes, it's completely arbitrary that Serbia cares more about the region that's considered the heart of the country that's been part of the country since it's inception more important than Slovenia, where Serbs have never lived nor had control of for any period of history other than Yugoslavia /s
This is definitely not what actually happened but keep spewing propaganda. Anyone who is interested in what actually happened can easily google it.
I was going to ask why Spain didn't but in reflection I suppose they don't want to less people start asking uncomfortable questions around Catalonia
Those questions are already asked and the answer is always no. Our PM said it himself last week. And most here don't think about Kosovo or even know that we don't recognise it
You don't think about Kosovo or know much about it but you can almost guarantee that Catalan separatists would be all over it if the Spanish government did choose to recognise Kosovo tomorrow, it would give their campaign a lot of legitimacy and precedence to push more for independence.
Oh I know that, everyone knows that. I'm just saying that the government not recognising Kosovo is not talked about and there's not really any push to force to government to do it
Alternative title: Countries with separatist movements
What’s the separatist movement in Greece?
Supporting the Greeks in Cyprus
Why not just include all of Europe instead of just the EU. Especially all the Balkan countries being missing is annoying since Kosovo is a balkan country.
Nice, very nice, now let's see if the whole world also recognizes kosovo. (It does not)
Now let's see Paul Allen's recognition of Kosovo
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The whole world recognizes only half of the countries unanimously. (hyperbollically)
Nearly half of UN countries recognize Kosovo IIRC.
Not "nearly half" but more than half. Depending on source u have either ~117 UN Recognizers as of Kosovan MFA or ~101 as of Wiki.
Lmao the Balkans are there like "Yeah don't even bother asking them."
No one wants a Great Albania in the historicaly anxious, boiling part of Europe: the Balkans.
Here's why we support Kosovo independence in Bulgaria - to shit on Serbia
There are memes in Serbia showing Bulgaria stabbing us in the back with a knife. 😔 So yeah, I understand your statement.
Kosovo's independence serves that exact purpose and no other. An artificial state carved out of another country to serve USA interests in the Balkans and to fuck that same country for refusing to align with Washington ideas.
say that to an Albanian from kosovo if you live tell me how
You hit the right phrase there. Albanians from Kosovo. Albanians.
Based reason tbh
I honestly don’t give a fuck about the territorial integrity of Serbia, but also think the ethnic Serbian enclaves of Kosovo should be able to remain with Serbia. Because also fuck the territorial integrity of Kosovo.
The thing is. There is a Albanian minority in the south of serbia equal in size of the serb minority in Kosovo. Both should profit the same way. Either same guarenteed human rights for both or land swap.
Lets be real here man. Just by looking at your posts it’s hard to take you serious. Anyways, what Albanians in southern Serbia? What are you talking about?
Also fuck your integrity homie.
Most if not all countries don't recognize it only because they are worried that it will legitimize independence movements in their own countries.
🇪🇸 🤝 🇷🇸
Kosovo je Serbia
Kosovo is Greek 🇬🇷🇬🇷🇬🇷💪💪💪
Why Kosovo can demand independent but Crimean cannot? Why NATO can bomb Serbia civilian into submit to Kosovo independent, but Russia cannot?
Because intellectuals use “manufactured consent” when it suits them. When Brexit happened it was manufactured consent, when 60% want it reversed it’s will of the people
Crimea didn't demand independence. It was invaded. The vote (only between an independent Crimean nation that would be incapable of surviving and joining Russia) was held in a way that does not lead to an even remotely trustworthy result. Also Serbia under Milosevic had started four horrible wars and had to be prevented from starting a fifth.
Go ask Russians in crimea…. As for Serbia under Milosevic, how much do you actually know about Ex-Yugoslavia? Start from the beginning.
Hvala braćo! Thanks brothers!
i think it would be safe if you assumed that serbia also doesnt recognise kosovo?
The moment Spain recognizes Kosovo as independent, or supports Scotland leaving the UK, they lose Cataluña
First, the independence movement in Catalonia has barely reached 50% of the votes (and is smaller nowadays). Second, Spain isn't against the lawful separation of parts. The first referendum in Scotland was authorized by the British Parliament. That's OK with the Spanish government. Now, despite Sturgeon asking for a new referendum, the UK government has refused to authorize it. So, Spain would be now against a Scottish secession if they do it unilaterally.
Love UK being in grey when its EU mentioned and not Europe.
Whats to love about that?
Getting maps/info correct. I see alot calling Europe, the EU.
Isn’t it hypercritical for the EU to recognise a separatist movement in Serbia but not in Ukraine.
Not surprisingly, all the countries that don't recognize Kosovo are nations that have independent provinces of their own that want to breakaway because they're also being repressed by their respective governments.
Wrong, Slovakia has probably the most pro-minority laws in EU because we had ethnic hungarian party in our parliament/goverment. Problem is that Hungary is still butthurt about trianon and still plays with thought to unite old empire, there is no wonder that Orban likes Putin.
> Not surprisingly, all the countries that don't recognize Kosovo are nations that have independent provinces of their own that want to breakaway because they're also being repressed by their respective governments. repressed? Catalonia? The hungarians in Romania and Slovakia? jfc. do you know what "repressed" means?
Using police forces to beat up peaceful voters, politically imprisoning activists and politicians, spying on political opponents, journalists, activists and lawyers... Yes, repression is a good term.
You have no idea what you are talking about, but here you are submitting ignorant opinions. There is no ''repression'' in Spain, Romania, Slovakia. In fact they have some of the most pro-minorities laws in Europe. France, for example, is one that offers little to no minority rights, yet is supports the independence declaration of Kosovo. So, as you see, things are not at all as you imagine them. The countries that oppose the recognition usually have several cumulative reasons in mind: the fact that it did not respect international law (according to it the only legal separation is through democratic and peaceful steps, there has to be some agreement between the 2 sides, there has to be strong peace treaties signed, etc. For example Czechia and Slovakia separated according to the international law and everyone accepted it. Including all these states), the fact it can be used as a dangerous precedent that could shatter EU's unity, peace and bring chaos and destabilization (Russia already used Kosovo as a precedent to make illegal territorial grabs from Ukraine and started a war that destabilizes the entire Europe, especially the eastern one), the fact Russia could (and already did) fund extremist groups and separatist movements across Europe (no need to make things worse than they already are), some of these countries had good relations with Serbia throughout history, etc, etc, etc.
"Repression" is the wrong word - but Spain, Romania, etc recognising Kosovo independence would be implicitly validating their own local independence movements. It really is not any deeper than that.
In Spain, the majority of the population considers the de facto independence of Kosovo contrary to international law. I'm glad we're on the correct side of the map for once.
I doubt anyone actually cares about the international law. I think we all know it's about Catalonia.
I’m Spanish and I’m pretty sure most people have barely heard about Kosovo, and have absolutely no opinion on this topic (or they don’t even know about it).
Fuck biased interpretation of international law. Every land and their people has the right of self-determination by UN, UDHR and the International Bill of Human Rights
Which international law is that? I was under the impression that the United Nations charter promotes self-determination and equal rights for all peoples, including national minorities.
Now apply that logic to Crimea and Donbass.
You have a bit of a point regarding Crimea, given the demographic makeup there in 2014. There's no great evidence that the Donbass wanted to rejoin Russia.
If they want to have free and fair elections with international observers without Russian monkeys intimidating voters, then absolutely. But Russia is too scared to let that happen, gee I wonder why. :)
Ukraine also refused to hold a referendum when it still controlled Crimea. In any case, independent pollsters have consistently showed Crimean support for independence, albeit not by the margins in Russia's referendum.
> russian monkeys tf?
Does it need explanation?
Spain helped the US bomb serbia in 99
In Spain most people does not care about it. In Catalonia they probably do.
I'm fron Catalonia, except 4 loud people the rest probably don't even know kosovo is independent or not
Was there a poll in spain about the populations opinion? I dont remember seeing one. "Correct side"? Mate... go check a doc.
It honestly interests me what workable alternatives to a future independant Kosovo would be. Should Kosovo's elected government just step aside and it be governed by Serbia? What realistic endgame is there that doesn't have some sort of independant Kosovo?
If the world is okay with Crimea (90% Russian) being ruled by Ukraine, why not Kosovo under Serbia? There really is no consistency on this issue. It is all political interests.
Just as Kosovo is de facto independant, Crimea is de-facto under Russian control. And I wouldn't wish the method by which the Crimea question is being resolved - a major land war - on any other country.
Comparing apples with oranges...
What everyone, and I mean everyone, knows is, that Kosovo will never be ruled by serbia again. Either Kosovo stays independent as it is or it unites with Albania (though the Kosovan Constitution forbids any territorial changes or unifications...).
I really do not get why Kosovo even exists. It is not a separate nation and in a few decades, they will for sure merge with Albania. On the other side, you have nations with millions of people without their own state, e.g. Kurds.
Why is Spain and Greece against the independence of Kosovo?