“What do you call a woman with one black eye? A quick learner.” - my boomer uncle at every family gathering. He’s been telling that same joke for 40+ years.
I’m sure generationally we’re imperfect but we’re at least trying. I think one of the biggest improvements I’ve seen in the last decade has been the acknowledgment that men can be on the receiving end of domestic abuse.
>“What do you call a woman with one black eye? A quick learner.” - my boomer uncle at every family gathering. He’s been telling that same joke for 40+ years.
Wtf. Why does he keep telling it, does he get a positive reception, like laughter?
“Your previous girlfriends (/wife/etc.)” another potential retort.
I’d brainstorm a new answer for each family occasion, until he stops out of thorough humiliation. Then you’ve won. People like him enjoy hurting the feelings of others you have to hurt his publicly to get him to stop. Like a shitting, neighbourhood cat and a water gun..
My first real relationship with a girl where we lived together, she threw a plate at me because I refused to wash dishes and instead study for an exam.
- I was working full time and doing part time school
Oh yes. My ex wife was physically abusive to me. She didn’t deal well with hearing the word “no”. At one point she sent my therpy transcripts out to friends and family because the replacement dishwasher I bought was the wrong color. When she’d get physical with me she’d say stuff like “if you tell anyone I’ll call the cops and say you hit me first”.
Any time I tried to talk to literally anyone about it the responses came in three flavors. “Man up”, “she just feels things passionately” or my favorite “you just don’t know how to deal with a strong woman.”
The night she threw the plate at me I called the cops.
When the cops showed up, (state of Colorado) they defused the situation, but told us if they had to come back, they’d place us both under arrest and charge us both with domestic violence.
- Colorado law
After that, she got the picture
I would say definitely. Rewatching movies that I thought were funny as a kid, I can see that a lot of the humor pretty much relies on misogyny and homophobia, but that's just my take. 🤷
Hey friend, just a kind reminder that you're probably great and that you don't have to be gay to hate yourself; we're all p good at it regardless of orientation.
In the early aughts, battle rap was basically homophobia to a beat. By the 2010's the homophobia was mostly gone and artists had to be a lot more creative.
The whole case in legally blonde swung wide open when they discovered the guy couldn’t have slept with a woman because he was gay. How did they know he was gay? He knew about designer shoes.
A lot of transphobia in them as well. Catches me off guard when I watch an old favourite and then get whacked with the "Hurr Durr she's a man" punchline.
to be fair, she/he had engaged in sexual behavior with most of the force without disclosing and giving them the opportunity to truely consent. That makes he/she the asshole in that situation.
For some genitalia doesnt matter, for some it does. To the males she/he made out with, it mattered and thats okay.
I started rewatching law and order svu and the way they talked about trans people caught me so off guard. I grew up with it and I never noticed the blatant transphobia in that show.
Was shocked, at how bisexuality also didn't exist. Like unfortunately, I believe one character was assaulting both men and women, but they figured he must be gay and "hate" his mother...that's why....the word bisexual was never uttered.
Until Kat showed up and then prompty disappeared.
In corporate workplace culture yes. I'm an elder millennial and when I first entered into the corporate world in the mid 2000's many of my boomer superiors were misogynistic to where it was like a competition to one up each other. In front of women and clients they were VERY buttoned up and polite but when it was just the guys they'd be quick to say which one they'd bone first, talk about the rack on that one, another guy chimes in about how he is more of an ass man and likes her colleague better. They talk about women and objectify them like it's a debate about football. As a young male employee it was super uncomfortable because these men were my superiors, they have the power to promote me or fire me. So I had to reluctantly join in, complaining to HR does nothing because those men had power over HR too.
But now that many boomers are aging out of for workforce, it has gotten better. But peers who work in more blue collar industries tell me that it's still very much the same as previous decades.
I’m sure it existed in other places and with younger people too but the only times I can specifically remember a coworker blatantly objectifying a woman was a guy who was late 50s/early 60s. He made a comment about a woman we worked with and her chest. Oh and he’s a very religious man too
I saw/heard that all the time from coworkers in their 50's/60's. When the whole Trump tapes of "just grab her in the p\*ssy" leaked I wasn't shocked he said that. I've heard so many men of his age say the same things and Trump was trying to one up the guy by saying an even more lewd comment. I was just shocked it was caught on tape.
One one hand yeah, but now we also have the mind poison that is alpha males on Tiktok and incels and all that shit. So I feel like there has been a shift were most sane people see misogyny more as what it is (an expression of insecurity from losers) but it's still there in some ways.
There's still some crazy shit you can see in media from the 90s and 2000s that wouldn't fly today, even just in regards to women. That's not even speaking on transphobia, ableism and other stuff that was just blatantly out there back then.
You can kind of look at it as a doubled edged sword in a way. The more rapidly and intensely women’s rights and situations improve overall, the more we will see intense backlash from a select group of people who are losing their vice grip over controlling them. Men who feel emasculated because they can’t get away with the same violent, misogynistic shit anymore, or at least get called out for it. So while we may be seeing a surge of trad wife BS and incel rhetoric rn, it’s because toxic people are panicking and trying a desperate attempt to prevent a further improvement in women’s freedom.
They’re basically doubling down to try and dissuade as many more people from following suit and stripping them of their power. Women are breaking free from the current constructs, so the system as it stands is failing, therefore the toxic men need to go to further extremes to try and prevent it from getting “worse” for them. Women have had too much freedom in their eyes because they’re capable of breaking free, therefore the new system needs to be harsher and more oppressive to prevent them from ever considering demolishing it again.
It's sad, but it's also been funny to me to see like, these young bro people but they're basically also trying to push near-puritan values or something. It's just weird to me.
I'm happy that the general consensus is more leaning toward, "If you need to control someone in a relationship to be happy/secure then that's terrible and a 'you' problem". It's always been so odd to me, this "EY d00d you gotta keep yo woman under control". Like whaaat
Yeah, it does always seem like progress isn’t happening because with progress, there’s always backlash.
For example, the civil rights movement raised a lot of awareness and you could argue that was the turning point where black people became more liberated. The world isn’t perfect still, but racism afterward became a lot more socially unacceptable. However, all those confederate statues were actually built during the civil rights movement and not after the Civil War - as a warning to black people what happens to them when they start getting too “uppity” about their rights. You can even see how racism became louder after Obama was elected, because seeing any bit of progress was a threat to people who were otherwise okay hiding in plain sight.
The pendulum always swings back and forth. Tumultuous times are tough to live through but usually necessary for progress.
I was gonna say the misogyny that exists today feels much more targeted and directed as opposed to the past. Instead of "oh, that's just the way things were back then" it feels more intentional.
Yeah, because it's not that universally accepted or expected or whatever. More people would call it out now if someone's casual about it. Like unironically going, "Oh she's a woman, of course she can't drive", that would be like an eyeroll thing maybe a few decades ago and now people react more sensically to it.
Is it plenty, though, or do they just have outsized visibility? I feel like people see one idiot on tiktok and extrapolate it to "oh this is common." Same for fake bullshit on Reddit
The MAGA women are a detriment to women's rights. Unfortunately, there isn't a small amount of them.
This election is going to have a significant impact on the future of women's rights. We've got to keep these fucks out.
I live in a red state and I don’t even know “plenty” of women who are in favor of stripping women’s rights. Even my bf’s female Republican family members all work, vote, and scoff at misogyny. Of course the pro-life thing is an example of how they vote against their own interests (due to religious beliefs) but they’re not obsessed with “trad-wives” or anything like that - that is a very small subset of women. Incels outnumber them by far and even they are a subset of people.
Internalized misogyny is real, of course, but it’s not even close to as widespread as misogyny is. I feel as though I have to avoid so many subreddits because of this - and I have to hang out in female-centric ones just to avoid seeing horrible, misogynistic things everywhere. If it were “plenty” of women then I’d have to avoid female-centric subs too but I don’t.
And I did not have this experience when I was younger - women often slut shamed each other, tried to be the cool girl, went along with the “boys will be boys” excuse, etc … and I just don’t see as many women buying into that anymore. It exists but it’s not as prevalent as when I was younger.
I’m sure this is the most controversial statement ever on a male-dominated site like Reddit but if you want to know from an actual woman’s account of things, most of the sexism I deal with these days is from men. But even if it weren’t I still don’t see lots of women working hard to peel back our own rights.
In your view do the women voting Right want safety and the plausible option of living a traditional wife life (or the option available for their daughters)?
That’s sort of my working theory. There’s a number of things that’s disenchanting me from Left politicians but until trump dies I can’t even consider voting the other way.
Not the original commenter, but I don't think Women voting Right is necessarily about wanting the option to be a trad-wife or their daughters to be trad-wives. I believe that SOME of the allure of adopting that identity is a strange, conservative version of being a sort of pick-me woman, to signal to conservative men. It's also an easier path to power and influence as a woman, because there are few on the Right.
I also believe quite strongly that many women on the Right will trumpet the virtues of being a Trad-Wife, because they want to force OTHER women into that lifestyle, not themselves. Being a trad-wife, in their minds, is for the poor. Got knocked up at 16 and want an abortion? Their answer is that you should have gotten married, had the child, and surrender to becoming a near slave for the rest of your life. Want an education and tax-funded assistance to get it? No way, find a man to support you and shut up. Need food stamps and Medicaid to care for your children as a single mom leaving a DV situation? Get married, accept the abuse and shut up. Imo it's all about punishing poor women.
I think millennials are generally more open to the idea that we might have been wrong.
I don’t think we’re particularly more or less misogynistic from our starting point than previous generations were. I do think that at our current age we are still able to think critically about the world around us, but that will continue to slow as we age. It’s human nature. We worked for hundreds of years to get where we are and generations before us also moved the needle.
I’m 35 and the older I get, the more adamant I feel about respecting women and gender equality. I feel like it’s gotten way better. Jokes I remember from my teenage years being the norm disgust me today and wouldn’t be appropriate anymore.
Personally I’m of the opinion that, due to the social and legal shifts of the past few decades that allowed more rights for women, the “better” of millennials are far less misogynistic. However, the “worse” of us are really really bad because positive social change always has insane backlash.
I agree. The bad side is definitely worse, but the good side is definitely better. There’s just more of a divide. I mean, look at that man vs bear question everyone is so fired up about. There are lots of men saying that it’s concerning but understandable, and that men need to do better if they want women to not feel safer with a bear than a strange man. Then on the flip side, the misogynists are screaming that they’d enjoy watching a woman be mauled by a bear, just because women had the ‘audacity’ to state that they don’t feel safe around men. The irony goes right over their heads on that one.
So yes, I think that the misogynists are fewer, but louder because now they have social media to scream their views and find communities of other people who feel the same.
My personal life experience says no matter the age, men don't like women in their 'areas'. It's not as blatant as you think. Most don't say things flat out, but they'll make a woman do more to prove she should be there. The constant expectation of failure. I got so pissed at guys trying to stop me doing my job because it involved heavy lifting. I finally made them stand back and watch me do the whole job by myself. Even that only helped a bit. Also, the major issue of not accepting a woman in a leadership role. My best friend has legit refused to take on leadership roles in the last 5 years at work because the 10 years before that showed her how shit it is to try to tell men what to do when your a little lady. She's earned her spot but she refuses to take it because it's not worth the struggle it'll apply to her life.
Yeah I admit I sometimes feel it's my place to help a woman who probably doesn't even need my help. It's crazy how ingrained into our minds that women are less capable and need us for things. Even me who is around strong Alaskan women all day who are probably tougher than your average southern guy. One unarmed Alaskan mom has more balls than an entire Uvalde police force for real
I'd say your best option is to ask, "What can I do to help?" Don't ask, "Do you need help?" I know it's weird but in woman world the first is respectful and the second is disrespectful. We operate a lot on undertones and do you need help has a lot of implied negatives to it.
Thanks. Honestly it didn't help that my dad taught me this is what gentlemen are supposed to do and always had me help and protect my my younger sisters. I've learned as an adult that people will probably ask if they actually need help. And women are all different, can't treat people like a monolith.
I think in many ways, we’ve gone two steps forward, one step back on a lot of issues. There have been gains but there’s also been setbacks.
What has stood out to me more lately has been perception of gender. When I was growing up and becoming an adult, there was a shift from traditional gender roles to the belief that gender is basically a construct. As an example, that women could have short hair, work a manual labour job, not want kids, and still be a woman. We don’t need to restrict our interests, goals or appearances based on gender. Women can be whatever, men can be whatever, equality and all that. Obviously we weren’t totally there yet, but things were looking up.
But now I feel like we are going backwards. Don’t get me wrong, I am a huge supporter of LGBTQ communities, and consider myself a member. But now if you’re a woman with short hair, labour job, no kids - you must really be a trans man, because those are man things. I worked at a college and while it’s great to see so many young people figuring out their identities, I did see a lot of kids look at their feminine interests and decide that they must be a woman, or vice versa. Sometimes they were right and discovered their gender identity (which is great, don’t get me wrong) but other times they realized that having those interests wasn’t about their gender. Some also swung hard into it - for example, being a trans woman but going hard on the stereotypes like being submissive and relying on a man to provide. Or being a trans man and leaning into toxic masculinity. It’s hard to articulate but it’s a weird trend I’ve seen in person and online.
Basically, we were breaking out of those traditional gender roles but now we are choosing to put ourselves back in those boxes. With that I think comes a return or resurgence of misogyny.
I feel like there's a notable decline in benevolent sexism in millennials, which is good. But there's also a weird uptick in malevolent sexism, or misogyny, seen in the younger generations.
So less putting women on a pedestal, more throwing women down in the dirt.
A lot of men today are positively gleeful at the idea that "equality" means they get to treat women like shit. "Oh you want equal rights? That means I won't protect you if I see you getting raped/attacked." "Equal rights means I get to punch you if you disrespect me, because that's what men do to each other". "Equal rights, equal lefts." "Equal rights, equal fights.", etc. The immediate, knee-jerk leap to violence when a woman mentions equality or feminism isn't shocking - misogynists gonna misogyny - but it's so tiring. It's also kind of hilarious that they act like there's ever been a time period in human history in which treating women like shit hasn't been the norm.
You see, it's equality to some men to keep women relying on and needing men for things like basic food and shelter. Because without that, why does any woman need him? He has nothing else to offer so to him it's equality to have a woman need him for something like he needs a woman for something.
Yeah, I'd say millenials are fairly egalitarian on the whole. Probably because we've been economically in the trenches together for so long.
I see some alpha male sexism and trad wife BS from both males and females of GenZ though. It's weird, but I supervise a lot of young GenZ at work and I definitely overhear it.
What I mean is that it is truly eye opening the amount of unpaid and largely unnapreciated labor you will be expected to take on as the "mom," as opposed to the dad. In my experience this imbalance happens in a vast majority of relationships, even the ones most committed to equality before kids. It takes a ton of really conscious effort not to slip into this pattern. Sure, it's not as bad as it used to be, but lots of millennial men skate by doing a lot less than their fair share, and their careers and interests outside of child rearing are still largely prioritized over their partners'.
Edited to add: it's not blatant sexism, but the system in which parenthood operates is largely still very sexist and patriarchal and lots of men are perfectly ok with that status quo because it benefits them.
I would say yeah but I think the lack of respect for women is still there. Experienced it in some of my relationships with men.
Mostly came up in regard to labor equity in the household and sex.
And I'm not sure it's as much as attitudes changed as much as women speaking up for themselves. It's like racism. People still think things but they know better than to say them aloud unless they think it's a sympathetic audience.
Yeah I think it is better, but definitely there are still a LOT of problems with misogyny. I don’t take much personally and I still see it.
My sister’s husband (age 35) and my father thought it was okay to keep a terminal diagnosis of stage 4 cancer from my sister, “because she is pregnant.” They entirely took the decision away from her because they thought it was best. They both think it is okay. It brought out an anger in me… he may not make it through the year. She gives birth in December! They were taking away an ability for her to spend time with him. She has 0 fertility issues and medical complications. I told her in the end.
Have also had to deal with some things at work… I am an engineer and there are guys who think women aren’t suited for it. I am our subject matter expert now so they rely on me and don’t seem to think my gender makes me less at this point. Early in my career it was like swimming against the current.
Our father who was going to tell her and her husband said no. He is worried that upsetting her could cause an issue with the baby. It is coming from a caring place I think, but the due date means next to no time with him (they are close and always have been).
(She handled it fine btw sadness but not hysterical by any means and no issues with the baby at her appointment post her knowing.)
Think it depends highly on geography and economic class. In each community, some issues are better, some are worse.
Grew up in a rural/conservative community. Grew up, moved closer to a large city, got an education. Some issues were better amongst millennials there, such as encouraging following a dream career and not pushing to get married/have kids young. But other things were worse. Pushed what I consider to be an ultra feminine appearance on me, insistence on fitting into whatever gender you are with strict rules on what a straight/LGBTIA+ person is "supposed" to look/act/sound like, obsession with "marrying well when the time comes," and being subjected to ridicule when I didn't fit into that.
I couldn't stand it, moved back to my conservative area and to the friends I grew up with. Almost all blue collar. It mostly sucks, but it's the bullshit I'm used to and can at least understand. The men are mostly terrible, with the exception of my husband (who I didn't find until I was 29, ancient for this area). Even when not conservatively religious, the expectations are similar. Women are supposed to have kids, strive to be a SAHM, take care of the house, work an unimportant job for "fun" money and never question men in social situations. Women are mostly expected to be quiet and laugh at the men's jokes when friends and family are around. For example, a friend I grew up with recently married a woman he met when she was 18 and he was 28. They got married 5 years later, but in that time she had 2 kids with two other men and was engaged to each, before breaking it off and eventually getting back with my friend, having a 3rd child with him, and marrying him all before she was 24 and he was 34. Any time I say the quiet part out loud about their relationship, I'm shushed.
Some things are better, but it mostly feels the same as the 1970s, especially with blue collar millennials
Your friend with the 3 kids and age gap reminds me of an article I read that really stuck with me on growing up female in rural america- kind of a sad read but I still think about it- [Atlantic article "The Forgotten Girls of Rural America"](https://archive.ph/2023.12.08-162053/https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2023/04/the-forgotten-girls-monica-potts-book-excerpt/673581/)
Thanks, yea I'd seen that article before, but was too scared to read it. I did just now though, and a lot of it hits really close to home. I'm from rural Pennsylvania, but most of it still feels very on the nose, especially toward my friend's wife. She puts pics on FB of the 5 stacked generations of women in her family photos, even looks just like the girls in the article, with the tattoos, makeup, tired and dehydrated looking despite still being so young. Still, most of my female family members are just the same. My mom married my father at 19, impressed that I should do the same or I would be "ruined," thought saving virginity was the only way to avoid trouble and be right w/ God sort of stuff. Female cousins all had kids as teens, live in trailer parks, no stability in the family, men in and out of jail, on drugs, abusive relationships. It's just really sad. It's still hard to relate to the social changes happening elsewhere, all the culture wars feel so distant and yet so close sometimes. Still feels like we're living in the 1970s here, if that.
On the one hand, sexism is talked about openly and confronted easier. It helps that serial offenders like Harvey Weinstein and Bill Cosby had a falling out.
On the other hand, this generation gave birth to the incel phenomenon. A lot of people that would have been seen as the harmless geeky nerd have been slapped with this label for better or worse.
Maybe when we start getting pain meds for painful medical procedures, the healthcare industry is still rampant with misogyny and sexism.
Older Dr or younger Dr, it doesn’t matter, still no pain meds when getting chunks of flesh cut out of your cervix by what is essentially a hole punch or when getting an IUD inserted. The tenaculum resembles a pair of scissors with sharp pointed hooks on the end for procedures that require access to the uterus. During IUD insertion the tenaculum is inserted into the vagina piercing the cervix tissue to seize and pull it steadily. You’re often told to cough for the pain. Many have reported that doesn’t work.
I’m not sure anymore. Because of the rise of Andrew Tate, Jordan Peterson and male podcasters today. Sure there’s a lot of young people listening to those but there’s still some surely 30-40 year old men who are angry and spewing the same stuff.
If you talk to a lot of single people trying to use dating apps 30+ it seems like a shit show. Guys with laundry lists of requirements for women or hostile profiles with insults towards women and old photos.
Whenever there’s progress there’s a backlash and an attempt to go back and become even more conservative with some people.
Then there’s the types who think a 50/50 equal relationship means both partners work and pay the bills but only the woman does all or most of the home upkeep, cooking and/or childcare.
I've been going back and watching TV shows from that era lately. Right now I'm on Kind of Queens and as background for my dog when I'm busy I'll play Everybody loves Raymond. I am seriously appalled at the racism, misogyny, and homophobia. I mean, I was definitely a lot like that at the time because that's what I grew up around and it was normalized, but I've since opened my eyes to reality and cringe at the jokes that are made.
For some reason the time period really portrayed adult men/husbands/father's as giant babies who could get away with anything as long as they whined enough, and their wives would always get mad and later concede and apologize. What a wild time man.
The conversation has changed. Those in power now are at the very least cognizant.
But yes locker room talk exists and racist talk exists. Being a very white older dude people of all types say the craziest shit… i also have a bible first name many people identify with also say some way too open about their beliefs
I think the scariest aspect of this is that looking back 20, 10, even 5 years back sure feels like we've stagnated on progress, but this year marks the 50th anniversary of women being able to get a credit card without a mans signature. The progress we've made in the past 50 years has been monumental, but equality is still so distant it feels like we've barely moved, even though we've made huge strides.
I am doing my best to remain in outrage over our current lack of progress and backsliding, but its so hard when i am horrified by the literal thousands of years of essentially women being treated as property.
Its on our generation to fix this. we cannot allow backsliding when fundamental human rights are at stake.
Hmm, i’m an elder millennial and the sexual violence my friends and I endured from peers was very high. I do like that younger millennials and gen z are talking about enthusiastic consent and such, but those dudes we dated who are 35-42 now probably didn’t just change and are still millennials.
I can only speak from personal experience. But yeah. The guys that sexualised me from the age of 11, were mostly older. They were grown ass men who suddenly started treating me like a lust object when I was still very much a child. Sure there have been boys who had just hit puberty and were horny 24/7, but they didn't cross the line to sexual harrassment or sexual violence. With the exception of a certain ex when I was around 20, but he was the exception to the rule and it was a gradual process.
Now, 20 years later, the guys who blatantly stare at my tits like they are the only interesting thing about me, are older men. The guys that'll talk over me and won't let me finish a sentence are older men. The pervert that grabbed both my tits from behind at a bar, was an older man. The pervert that wouldn't stop touching my ass, despite my objections, was older. The pervert who harrassed me on the bus and put his hand between my legs was older. The guy with a hand fetisj that kept asking to hold mine while sporting a very obvious hard-on, was older. The ones that stare creepily are older. The ones that ignore boundaries are older. The ones that think they are owed something, are older.
Don't get me wrong, I'm sure there are mysoginistic assholes my own age, but those aren't the people I willingly surround myself with. Those older guys, they were either part of my parents' social circle (I know, ew. They made damn sure mom didn't notice their behaviour. Dad is oblivious because he can't fathom the idea that his kid is sexually attractive to guys his age), or happened to be in the same public space as I was. It's likely a 'younger person = easier target' kind of thing. Younger people tend to put up with more bullshit from others.
If I have my 6,10 tall 3ft wide, darkhaired and bearded SO walking next to me, the only ones who will still try to harrass me, are older. I speak up and tell them to leave me alone, I get ignored. Then my bear-man says something along the lines of "you heard the lady" and they'll look mostly annoyed. Right up until my bear-man gets angry. Only then, do they realise that's a fight they don't want to pick.
Funny thing, my bear-man is a softy and possibly the least testosterone-filled dude I ever came across. He LOOKS intimidating, but he's really a sweetheart that just wants to be loved. Speaking of, I have some lovin' to do.
The internet is a poor judge of these things, because it seems like it’s real life, but it’s just the vocal minority. Fact of the matter is, the majority of the time you only hear from people who have something to complain about, whereas most regular folk will just scroll on with a quick react, or not even be online at all.
Those grifters you mentioned by name on the OP, I firmly believe that they don’t believe much of what they are spouting off to begin with, they’re just ‘engagement farming’ and because of how ad revenue is generated with our current models, they’re getting rich AF doing it.
Anecdotally, I’m a blue collar worker at a steel mill, and in our breakroom it’s the older guys who are retiring soon who are telling “anti-woman jokes” or (super strange to me) talking shit about their wives. So, I feel like overall as a society we’re progressing forward.
That whole overturning of Roe v Wade that happened in the states though…. That had my brain whirling… but I just chalk that up to the geriatric state of the people in power… I could be wrong though.
Absolutely spot on reminder about who generally posts on the internet.
I always find it sad when people (men or women) find camaraderie by being demeaning to their partners. My thought is always "but what does it make of you, if that is your closest and most important relationship".
I don't get what drives people away from putting all the energy they have in building a profound, respectful partnership with their spouse. It's the person you choose who will see you at your most vulnerable and have the most impact on your life. Neglecting the relationship sounds like a recipe for a miserable life. It's not easy to do it, but the alternative is bleak.
I think that’s just what they’re taught. Shitty people tend to make more shitty people. When they talk like that I just roll my eyes and think “why don’t you do both of you a favor, and just leave.”
It’s amazing to me that they’ve been brainwashed into thinking remaining in a shitty situation and suffering through it makes you ”tougher” or “more of a man”, when in reality… what takes more courage then leaving a bad situation and having to rebuild?
IMO, it’s a weakness, deciding to remain stuck.
It feels like it’s gotten worse. There were female empowerment movements. A lot of movies and books played this up.
Current and recent Social media and politics feels like a backlash against progress made for women, women’s rights like abortion. There is definitely a push back and some misogyny like calling an asshole a Male Karen instead of just calling him an asshole which is also very hypocritical
Based on my experience with sexual harrassment from men of all ages, I'm gonna guess no.
Men are *shocked* to find out that I have thoughts, hopes, and dreams outside of my appearance. They're intimidated when then find out how educated I am, and they're defensive when I ask why they cannot contribute to the household as a partner.
Maybe if millenial men actually voted to protect women's rights to their bodies then I would change my mind.
>Based on my experience with sexual harrassment from men of all ages, I'm gonna guess no.
As a woman myself, not gonna lie, when I read this opening statement I chuckled because it's the saddest reality.
While I do feel misogyny has improved over time, the unfortunate reality is that there are always men out there of all ages who continue to want to be this way and I feel like they enjoy making themselves be known.
The fact that I don’t know a single woman who has not experienced sexual harassment if not assault or worse stuns even the most evolved men, of any age. I’ll change my mind about men when enough can prove me wrong. Just wait until I get threatening DMs off this comment alone proving me right :)
I don’t know one single woman (who I’m close enough to discuss the subject with) that has not experienced sexual assault. Literally every single time it’s come up in conversation in a group of women, *all of them* have at the very least been groped on a bus, forcibly kissed by an acquaintance, or dealt with a “handsy” boss/teacher/coach.
Yet almost every time it comes up with a group of men, some of them claim that they don’t know *anyone* who’s been sexually assaulted. Listen up lads, if you have this belief, it’s because you either don’t associate with women, or the ones in your life don’t trust you enough to tell you about it.
Same. I really don’t think non-offending men understand the magnitude of the violence we experience.
Meanwhile, our hearts break again and again as we hear from yet another friend, family member, or colleague that they have been raped or assaulted.
We still have to be soooo careful about how we talk about the things we face every day which tells me people aren’t really ready to have the uncomfortable conversations yet, which is misogynistic in itself (constantly policing our anger over things that would make anyone angry if they were in our position). They want to pat themselves on the back for being late in realizing that women are actually people too - but you’ll still find them doubling down if you tell them anything they’re saying is misogynistic. It’s almost worse when they’ve decided they’re one of the good ones because they can’t be told they’re not.
I’ve had guys shout me down & gaslight me anytime I talk about the things I go through, all to lecture me on those *same* things a few years later once they’re “enlightened” as if they are the experts on the subject because they finally understood what I was saying all along. It’s only valid once they decide it’s valid. They still get to be the gatekeepers even when they’re on our side.
I work with this guy Evans. He posts memes all day that nobody even reacts to and says he does it for the ladies lol. He dated one of the girls in my friend group and had her quit posting memes on Facebook, I guess he thought she was posting for the same reason he was.
I think we're less. maybe not much less, but less.
the thing is, change like this happens over time, usually slowly. I know it's a popular talking point in some circles that there were always people ahead of their time on some social issue or another, and therefore everyone can adopt this enlightened view on the issue and just fucking catch up already, but that's generally not how it goes. it's a slow process.
I believe that we were the first generation to acknowledge it, our part in it, and then abandon it and grow. I also believe that it was because, unlike previous generations, we grew up with a mixed co-ed friends circle and weren't trying to fuck all of them. While I can only speak for my friend group during my teen years, we were not particularly forgiving about people attempting to SA or SAing our friends. We were the fafo type and believed more in street justice vs. calling the pigs. We knew the pigs to be misogynistic even if we didn't know the term itself. So yeah, I believe the Millennials to be the first generation to be far less misogynistic than previous generations. The exact cause, however, is likely to be a culmination of multiple issues we had with societal norms vs. being any one specific reason.
Yes there was still misogynistic tendencies. It was still prevalent all over entertainment.
Jerry Springer
WWF
Music acts
Movies like American Pie
Certain video games like Duke Nukem
We were young adults during the tipping point. Not to say that there isn't further to go and there aren't still deeply embedded misogynistic attitudes that need to change. But a lot of the casual homophobia, ableism, racism and misogyny that were just facts of life and language all changed very quickly in terms of social acceptability during our highschool and college years. This was largely driven by the broad acceptance of this needed change by the millennial generation but also a direct result of the groundwork laid by the feminists and activists of previous generations who were often ridiculed for the things we now take for granted.
I think the recent popularity of influencers that have more misogynistic views is a reaction to the decreasing amount of acceptable misogyny in society. They needed a microphone to legitimize their views. But also I think maybe it'll go back up again because of these influencers. I think the gender gap in political parties increasing is a bad sign.
>Just off the top of my head, I think of Britney, Lindsay Lohan and the Olsen Twins - legit public discourse over whether a teenager had had breast work or the creepy coverage surrounding the 18th birthday and being "legal".
This still happens.
>Janet Jackson's career crashing because a man exposed her breasts on TV.
This still happens.
>It was a lot more socially acceptable for a 19 year old woman to be dating a 35 year old man too.
This still happens and is arguably worse now than then.
>Tiktok and social media have made the media landscape unrecognisable compared to the 2000s and earlier decades. We don't have a monoculture or rely on celebrity magazines anymore.
This peeled back the private lives of people and celebs, what was once simply gossip is now backed by multiple photos from anyone with a cellphone. Makes it harder for people to hide who they really are.
>it doesn't feel like much of a real win when women in the US have a supreme court taking away their right to an abortion.
This was never a right to begin with, specially as states still had regulations in place in contradiction to the SCOTUS ruling before it was overturned and pushed solely to the states to decide, that's what lead to the decision to overturn it. Should it be a right? Yes. Should it be federally protected with zero chance of other interpretations? Yes.
>On top of that, Daily Wire, Ben Shapiro, Candace Owens, Michael Knowles and other big far right figures are all millenials, and it feels like millenials and many in GenZ have attitudes to women that are even more misognyistic than previous generations.
Please try to understand that the far right and far left are the extremes of the party lines. Those extremes do not represent the entirety of the those in those respective parties as most people fall middle left or middle right. However, while they represent the entirety of the party, they are usually the loudest people in the room.
Are there people out there who share the same views as those on the extreme ends? Yes. Do all 80+ million people of their respected party believe that same bs? No.
>Are millenials genuinely more progressive on misogyny compared to previous generations, or is it all just superficial political correctness?
I want to say yes to being more progressive, but in all honesty it's more superficial political correctness. Dirty jokes, catcalling, dark humor, talking down on people, all of that still exists, the only difference is now people are more careful about what they say and who they say it too instead of just blurting it out. This goes for celebs down to Joe down the street.
In the corporate environment it's even worse. We have committee's, social groups, women in the workplace events, happy hours, women only team building exercises, mandatory training courses for the men about women's health, all for support of women... and everything they push out screams they are only doing it to because they have to. When something comes across as being forced, it doesn't scream being more progressive.
No, and I don't think other generations hated women either. They definitely were unfair to women but when women got rights on par with men they became unfair as well in their logic and double standards. Does that mean modern women are misandrist or are they just exploiting the systems available to them like every one else.
I actually have to say that I feel like younger women are increasingly going back to dating men 10+ years older than them. I have zero interest in women below like 25ish and I'm 32 (even that is more like a hard line, I'd rather date someone roughly my own age), but they sure as hell seem interested in me. And I feel like I see more and more situations where I would be uncomfortable with that age gap in a relationship than I did 10 years ago.
If Gamergate and my time in the furry fandom (and by extension my time with bronies) have taught me anything, it's that while we may not say things in public spaces in the real world as much as we used to, there's still a lot of misogny, racism, some levels of homophobia, rampant transphobia, and general dipshit behavior going on. I don't think people really understand just how much the internet allows you to get away with something; after all, you can hide behind a made up online handle, persona, and even fake images and ultimately say whatever you feel like without the consequences of being in the same space as the people you're talking to.
I think that the misogyny has changed, but it's still prevalent. Just look at the bear debate. Just saw a post saying that women are overestimating their attractiveness when choosing the bear. Then there's the rise of alphas, "nice guys", incels, MGTOWs, & the fall of women's rights.
There might be more men that aren't mysogistic, but the ones that are are just as bad, if not worse than 20-30 years ago.
If you really want the answer to this question then a Reddit post is not the best approach, nor is any that has basis in public/personal perception. A person's view (and the publics view) of what constitutes misogynistic behavior varies tremendously between cultures, geographical location, socioeconomic status, and era (ie. Generations). Your examples are evidence of this.
The face of misogyny has changed. On one hand, women are treated more fairly in the workplace, or atleast, people refrain from being overtly discriminatory. OTH, influencer culture encourages women to pander to the male gaze.
We want women to have equal opportunity and equal pay for the same jobs as men. We did not get that .. at least not to the extent that we hoped. Instead, we got women the opportunity to sell their bodies online to make insane amounts of money.
It wasn’t millennials who overturned Roe v. Wade. We *are* lurching toward greater misogyny, but hopefully it’s just the death throes of a fading generation.
(Don’t forget to vote locally and nationally to stave off the christian nationalism sweeping the “conservative” party.)
I'm a millenial woman. I work in a typically masculine field. I come from a particularly feminist place (Montreal, Québec). I know I'm fortunate and this doesn't represent everyone's experience.
I feel like I personally escaped a lot of misogyny. I feel like I was even given a lot of "passes" for being a woman. Don't get me wrong, there are assholes everywhere, and some are misogynistic. But I can't say that I face/faced systematic barriers, that I was treated lesser-than or that I feel like I was ever reduced to being a face, a body, or my sexuality.
So, are millennials less misogynistic? The ones I'm surrounded with socially and professionally definitely are. I live in Japan now, and I see the impacts of very gendered roles everyday and I find it sometimes shocking.
All of that said, there's one thing I find absolutely appalling about (western) Millennials, and it's the very casual, sometimes hyped misandry. As a feminist and a profound humanist, it hurts me so so much to keep seeing the dichotomy of women being encouraged to thrive and rise and find their place and men that are shoved and mistreated and dehumanized, and then silenced or shamed when trying to speak about it.
I also can't wrap my mind around circumcision - it's literally genital mutilation. And it's so so common in the US, and sort of accepted... everywhere?
And before anyone call me a Shapiro or Peterson apologist - I'm not. Card carrying environmentalist, feminist, liberal here 👋. It hurts me when I see living being hurting, and I feel like we don't care enough about male/men suffering.
Goodness gracious does this resonate with me.
I went on two dates last week with a woman who literally could've been you until you said you are from Montreal ((she was from a different province)).
I swear to you, it's like she was *committed* to misunderstanding me. I didn't even bother trying to defend myself, because her comments fell way below the "that's a reasonable perspective" threshold.
I'm dating for the first time in many, many years and I couldn't be less impressed by how men are treated by women under the guise of feminism, "roasting" as a love language, being a strong independent woman or any other number of empowerment monikers.
It feels like bullying, and it's not fun at all. I explained the night to a friend and she said "that's the type of woman that turns good men into assholes and then wonder why they're treated a certain way".
Anyway, thanks for attending my TED talk, but also giving your perspective.
It's just a continued reminder in understanding what kinds of mutual agreements need to be established in order to facilitate better understanding.
In defense of myself - I'm always very clear about discussing intentions with my language, communication styles, acknowledging how experience shapes translation - but there's a whole lot of folks out there who don't acknowledge their own gaps between what they say they want, and how they act ((men and women both)).
I wish more people would ask "can you help me understand a bit further what you mean by that" instead of trying to understand through their own miscalibrated lenses and being ready for a fight!
I don't blame anybody in particular - everyone sucks in a lot of ways - but *damn* was that exhausting 🤣
Yeah, I feel like a lot of the (very healthy) emphasis on validating feelings has translated in a lot of people feeling absolutely justified in having hateful behaviours once they're triggered.
It's sad when people get drawn to hate rather than curiosity. I think it makes us poorer when we don't get the other side of the story, the "why is this important to you, what is precious, what is alive, what are you protecting, what do you actually mean".
I unfortunately had to learn to quickly identify and pull away from people who feel entirely justified to be hateful when they disagree, and can't appreciate nuance and the two sides of the coin. There's a type. It's exhausting just trying to have a conversation - can't imagine a date.
Then again, I guess hate fucks can be... fun (?) 😂🙃 (or... not)
Agreed. There is a lot of mysoginy but the misandry is not to be disregarded. The vast majority of men, are fine people. I also think misandry hurts women's position in society more than it helps. Hatred begets more hatred. While misandry might be a reaction to mysoginy, it will only give rise to more extreme forms of misoginy. Which will give rise to more extreme forms of misandry, and so on.
Men aren't our enemy. They are just people, same way women are just people. Nobody is perfect, anybody can be an asshole. Whatever is in your pants is really nothing to get excited about. Unless you're about to get freaky together, but that's the good kind of excited.
You remind me of myself. I've had anger at my own gender growing up because I wanted to be treated as AstrocyteDO, an individual. I didn't want people to look at me, see a girl, and treat me a specific way based on the fact I had a hole in between my legs that I did not ask for.
Later on, I made friends with many amazing men who loved me for who I was. Only women pushed feminine things onto me. The first personal account I had of sexual abuse was my male friend in high school confiding to me about how his girlfriend threatened to get gang raped if he didn't impregnate her.
As a child, I refused to listen to the girls and women pressuring or forcing me to be "girly." They told me to be careful around boys, careful around men...but, while I've met plenty of shitty men, they historically tended to accept me, and graciously bow out if I rejected any advances if they had attraction towards me.
As an adult, though, things have gotten much better. I don't have to fight gender roles nearly as much. I have a great mix of male and female friends.
Either way, my experience has made me extremely critical of how my fellow feminist liberals frame discourse about rape culture and whatnot. I see many otherwise intelligent women getting off to male tears or invalidating someone who is making an objectively rational point because they have something dangling between their legs.
Purposefully inflammatory content that paint an intrinsic quality that someone possesses and equating it with something horrible promotes further division. It's one thing to criticize a concept such as toxic masculinity or casual misogyny that may seem normalized. It's an entirely different thing to extrapolate from that that it is a fair judgment to consider all men violent rapists until proven otherwise, and dare I say makes it harder for men who are victims of abuse or mental health problems to speak up. The court system especially is guilty of this.
When I see my fellow feminists shitting on men, I think of the little boys crying to me for help.
No question. Just look at the old James Bond movies and the original Star Trek, for example. As a kid who grew up watching this stuff, then re-watch as an adult, is fucken embarrassing.
Of course. Look at the increased populations of professional women in the last 20 years. Not only are women excelling in our current economy, they are in many ways exceeding men.
I think normal millennials are much less misogynistic. Functional members of society tend to become increasingly progressive.
Incels and manosphere freaks are a lot more aggressively misogynistic, though. They're not only casually sexist like guys from the '70s, or even as systemically sexist as people like the '50s and earlier. No, they **hate** women. Like, it's not even just the bettering of men's position, it's about deliberately and cruelly putting women down.
Luckily, the average Andrew Tate fan probably drops him by the time he's 14 or so.
I think some are and some aren’t. A good chunk of us were raised on “entourage” and “the man show” so it complicates things.
For instance, I feel like I respect women equally in every way but catch myself having misogynistic beauty standards from time to time.
I've had so many weird bosses and supervisors that make comments about women (I'm a guy) and its always made me feel super uncomfortable. I don't mind chatting about cute girls outside of work, but when your supervisor asks you if the person you just had a meeting with "was cute" it feels fucking awful. Never had this issue with someone within 10 years of my own age.
You're asking the wrong question. Instead, simply ask: "Must we continue to fight for our rights once we have earned them?" The answer is a resounding yes. We can't rely on gains made in the 70s and just coast on what was achieved in generations past, we need to continue to stand up for our rights and use our rights.
Also, fuck hollywood. Those modern-day aristocrats don't give two shits about regular people unless they stop consuming their media. Meryl Streep blew a whistle at the end of her career when it was safe for her to do so. Google that image where Oprah is pretty much handing Britney Murphy to Harvey Weinstein. I just checked, it still exists.
When I watch movies from my (GenX) adolescence, I cringe at the casual misogyny.
Millenials are more in their media bubbles than previous generations were (in their time). So there is definitely a lot of misogyny somewhere in some bubble.
When we we all swam in the same media stories in the 80s and 90s norms were more enforced. There was no streaming- everything on TV relied on advertising revenue, so if anything was too transgressive (a boob falls out at the Superbowl, for example) there would be a meltdown.
Now you can watch convincing simulated sex on TV, and sometimes it’s pretty rapey even though the context/plot is critical. People are less innocent now, and less blind to *some* kinds of misogyny, but also, Millenials relax to the casual violence against “hookers and hos” which is at an all time high.
In general I'd say yes, though there are still many, many things we learned that may not be outrageously misogynistic but still heavily support the patriarchy. I remember as a late teen snickering about Monica Lewinsky and the cigar and the blue dress and thinking what a slut she must have been. It wasn't until my 30's and 40's that I really began examining some of those attitudes and realized that they were things I had learned from my male role models and things I quickly needed to deprogram.
Also during my early years of marriage I used to think to myself that if my wife just stood up for herself at work, people would stop treating her like shit. It was so obvious! Quit being a doormat. What I didn't realize then and what I'm glad she stuck with me until I figured it out, was the incredibly delicate balancing act women have to perform in the workplace between being a "doormat" or a "bitch" and how very little room there is between.
So while most of us won't say "Women belong in the kitchen!", many of us still carry with us the implicit biases that are there own form of misogyny.
Idk for me it’s a person by person thing.
The most misogynistic person I ever had the displeasure of knowing(and working for) was a 71 business owner. If anyone ever watched “king of the hill” he was Buck Strickland IRL. I quit that job because his office was a circus. I’ve never worked anywhere else that had even close to such a terrible personality at the top.
Other than that it splits because I’ve met plenty of incels and other misogynists on the younger end so it really just depends on upbringing.
One of the big themes in The Silence of the Lambs is a man wanting to transition to being a woman but is denied the surgeries and ends up going on a killing spree to make a woman suit.
No, slightly more. Although there is widespread acceptance of various feminine parts of culture, there is a deep vein of distrust of women in relationships, even amongst the married crowd.
I have watched several men, including myself, be utterly devastated and with toxic perspectives and thoughts as a result of a completely random change of mind amongst partners.
One day you’re fine, but then her friend gets single and starts dating again and now suddenly she FOMO and blowing up a perfectly good marriage for what can only be described as below mediocre dick with men who are the dregs of society with a million mile wide set of commitment issues and piss poor behavior to women, and then those women go back to dating and have a piss poor idea of men.
And then everybody gets pregnant or laden with addictions and the line between weird “incel red pill” losers who stereotype and think all women are like that and men who have a legitimate grievance with a singular woman bouts so dangerously close it is becoming increasingly hard to differentiate it.
All because 10% of women and 10% of men are given free reign to wreck homes and lives for 5 minutes of criminally and contemptible incompetent sex with a partner so lousy and forgettable, it should be a crime to even allow them to have sex to punish all the inadequate people out there who can talk the talk but couldn’t fuck the broad side of a barn.
It's gotten better, but things are far from perfect. It's one of those things where if you look back over your lifetime it doesn't feel like much change has made, but if you look at how things were over the past century you realize slow progress is being made.
I have a position that is usually held by males and deal with a lot of predominantly male industries. I've never had someone my age or younger call me sweetie or tell me they need to talk to my boss because he'll know what they are talking about. I've got that a lot from people older than me though. They about choke when I inform them SHE'S busy but I understand just fine.
As an aside, pulling this is a sure fire way to guarantee I don't choose your company for the work we need done.
Compared to the 00’s, maybe. Compared to the 70s, definitely
“What do you call a woman with one black eye? A quick learner.” - my boomer uncle at every family gathering. He’s been telling that same joke for 40+ years. I’m sure generationally we’re imperfect but we’re at least trying. I think one of the biggest improvements I’ve seen in the last decade has been the acknowledgment that men can be on the receiving end of domestic abuse.
A police officers wife
THIS is the best way to get that pos to stop telling this joke! Fucking beautiful
Okay…. That is a really solid response.
Only one? Must be a rookie
>“What do you call a woman with one black eye? A quick learner.” - my boomer uncle at every family gathering. He’s been telling that same joke for 40+ years. Wtf. Why does he keep telling it, does he get a positive reception, like laughter?
Wow, thats old school and i'm old. That's from the Humphrey Bogart days in the 30's and 40s where the detective slapped the hysterical woman.
I remember James Bond (Sean Connery) slapping the ladies. That was the 60s? so it's more recent than that.
“Your previous girlfriends (/wife/etc.)” another potential retort. I’d brainstorm a new answer for each family occasion, until he stops out of thorough humiliation. Then you’ve won. People like him enjoy hurting the feelings of others you have to hurt his publicly to get him to stop. Like a shitting, neighbourhood cat and a water gun..
My first real relationship with a girl where we lived together, she threw a plate at me because I refused to wash dishes and instead study for an exam. - I was working full time and doing part time school
Oh yes. My ex wife was physically abusive to me. She didn’t deal well with hearing the word “no”. At one point she sent my therpy transcripts out to friends and family because the replacement dishwasher I bought was the wrong color. When she’d get physical with me she’d say stuff like “if you tell anyone I’ll call the cops and say you hit me first”. Any time I tried to talk to literally anyone about it the responses came in three flavors. “Man up”, “she just feels things passionately” or my favorite “you just don’t know how to deal with a strong woman.”
The night she threw the plate at me I called the cops. When the cops showed up, (state of Colorado) they defused the situation, but told us if they had to come back, they’d place us both under arrest and charge us both with domestic violence. - Colorado law After that, she got the picture
Jesus! That's awful! ;A; I'm so sorry! I hope you got out of there ASAP!
The other half is bad too: "What do you call a woman with 2 black eyes? Nothing, you already told her twice"
I would say definitely. Rewatching movies that I thought were funny as a kid, I can see that a lot of the humor pretty much relies on misogyny and homophobia, but that's just my take. 🤷
The early aughts teen and rom com movies were FULLLLLLL of homophobia. Some of them physically hurt to watch now.
Sometimes I forget why I hated myself so much, and then older pop culture reminds me.
Hey friend, just a kind reminder that you're probably great and that you don't have to be gay to hate yourself; we're all p good at it regardless of orientation.
I was speaking mostly about my childhood years, but I do appreciate you saying that! Thank you
In the early aughts, battle rap was basically homophobia to a beat. By the 2010's the homophobia was mostly gone and artists had to be a lot more creative.
The whole case in legally blonde swung wide open when they discovered the guy couldn’t have slept with a woman because he was gay. How did they know he was gay? He knew about designer shoes.
A lot of transphobia in them as well. Catches me off guard when I watch an old favourite and then get whacked with the "Hurr Durr she's a man" punchline.
Alrighty then
Ace Ventura is the best example I know.
to be fair, she/he had engaged in sexual behavior with most of the force without disclosing and giving them the opportunity to truely consent. That makes he/she the asshole in that situation. For some genitalia doesnt matter, for some it does. To the males she/he made out with, it mattered and thats okay.
I started rewatching law and order svu and the way they talked about trans people caught me so off guard. I grew up with it and I never noticed the blatant transphobia in that show.
Was shocked, at how bisexuality also didn't exist. Like unfortunately, I believe one character was assaulting both men and women, but they figured he must be gay and "hate" his mother...that's why....the word bisexual was never uttered. Until Kat showed up and then prompty disappeared.
It's strange to think, "that's gay" or "that's so gay" was more common then than calling something "sus" now.
Trainwreck on Netflix is quite eye opening about the 1999 Woodstock and the behaviour there
Was watching Little Nicky and it still holds up but there is definitely a shitton of homophobia and transphobia in it.
Oh god I watched some of the early james bond movies and the romance scenes were basically rape
Married with children anyone?
In corporate workplace culture yes. I'm an elder millennial and when I first entered into the corporate world in the mid 2000's many of my boomer superiors were misogynistic to where it was like a competition to one up each other. In front of women and clients they were VERY buttoned up and polite but when it was just the guys they'd be quick to say which one they'd bone first, talk about the rack on that one, another guy chimes in about how he is more of an ass man and likes her colleague better. They talk about women and objectify them like it's a debate about football. As a young male employee it was super uncomfortable because these men were my superiors, they have the power to promote me or fire me. So I had to reluctantly join in, complaining to HR does nothing because those men had power over HR too. But now that many boomers are aging out of for workforce, it has gotten better. But peers who work in more blue collar industries tell me that it's still very much the same as previous decades.
I’m sure it existed in other places and with younger people too but the only times I can specifically remember a coworker blatantly objectifying a woman was a guy who was late 50s/early 60s. He made a comment about a woman we worked with and her chest. Oh and he’s a very religious man too
I saw/heard that all the time from coworkers in their 50's/60's. When the whole Trump tapes of "just grab her in the p\*ssy" leaked I wasn't shocked he said that. I've heard so many men of his age say the same things and Trump was trying to one up the guy by saying an even more lewd comment. I was just shocked it was caught on tape.
One one hand yeah, but now we also have the mind poison that is alpha males on Tiktok and incels and all that shit. So I feel like there has been a shift were most sane people see misogyny more as what it is (an expression of insecurity from losers) but it's still there in some ways. There's still some crazy shit you can see in media from the 90s and 2000s that wouldn't fly today, even just in regards to women. That's not even speaking on transphobia, ableism and other stuff that was just blatantly out there back then.
You can kind of look at it as a doubled edged sword in a way. The more rapidly and intensely women’s rights and situations improve overall, the more we will see intense backlash from a select group of people who are losing their vice grip over controlling them. Men who feel emasculated because they can’t get away with the same violent, misogynistic shit anymore, or at least get called out for it. So while we may be seeing a surge of trad wife BS and incel rhetoric rn, it’s because toxic people are panicking and trying a desperate attempt to prevent a further improvement in women’s freedom.
Yeah, that's true. It's like they have to re-inforce extra hard because their beliefs are more niché.
They’re basically doubling down to try and dissuade as many more people from following suit and stripping them of their power. Women are breaking free from the current constructs, so the system as it stands is failing, therefore the toxic men need to go to further extremes to try and prevent it from getting “worse” for them. Women have had too much freedom in their eyes because they’re capable of breaking free, therefore the new system needs to be harsher and more oppressive to prevent them from ever considering demolishing it again.
It's sad, but it's also been funny to me to see like, these young bro people but they're basically also trying to push near-puritan values or something. It's just weird to me. I'm happy that the general consensus is more leaning toward, "If you need to control someone in a relationship to be happy/secure then that's terrible and a 'you' problem". It's always been so odd to me, this "EY d00d you gotta keep yo woman under control". Like whaaat
Yeah, it does always seem like progress isn’t happening because with progress, there’s always backlash. For example, the civil rights movement raised a lot of awareness and you could argue that was the turning point where black people became more liberated. The world isn’t perfect still, but racism afterward became a lot more socially unacceptable. However, all those confederate statues were actually built during the civil rights movement and not after the Civil War - as a warning to black people what happens to them when they start getting too “uppity” about their rights. You can even see how racism became louder after Obama was elected, because seeing any bit of progress was a threat to people who were otherwise okay hiding in plain sight. The pendulum always swings back and forth. Tumultuous times are tough to live through but usually necessary for progress.
I was gonna say the misogyny that exists today feels much more targeted and directed as opposed to the past. Instead of "oh, that's just the way things were back then" it feels more intentional.
Yeah, because it's not that universally accepted or expected or whatever. More people would call it out now if someone's casual about it. Like unironically going, "Oh she's a woman, of course she can't drive", that would be like an eyeroll thing maybe a few decades ago and now people react more sensically to it.
Doesn't help that there are plenty of women in favor of stripping women's rights and promoting "Trad wife" and biblical type lifestyles.
Is it plenty, though, or do they just have outsized visibility? I feel like people see one idiot on tiktok and extrapolate it to "oh this is common." Same for fake bullshit on Reddit
Depends on where you live imo. I'm from the boonies and a lot of women here quietly adhere to that BS
Ughhhh barf ಠ︵ಠ
The MAGA women are a detriment to women's rights. Unfortunately, there isn't a small amount of them. This election is going to have a significant impact on the future of women's rights. We've got to keep these fucks out.
I live in a red state and I don’t even know “plenty” of women who are in favor of stripping women’s rights. Even my bf’s female Republican family members all work, vote, and scoff at misogyny. Of course the pro-life thing is an example of how they vote against their own interests (due to religious beliefs) but they’re not obsessed with “trad-wives” or anything like that - that is a very small subset of women. Incels outnumber them by far and even they are a subset of people. Internalized misogyny is real, of course, but it’s not even close to as widespread as misogyny is. I feel as though I have to avoid so many subreddits because of this - and I have to hang out in female-centric ones just to avoid seeing horrible, misogynistic things everywhere. If it were “plenty” of women then I’d have to avoid female-centric subs too but I don’t. And I did not have this experience when I was younger - women often slut shamed each other, tried to be the cool girl, went along with the “boys will be boys” excuse, etc … and I just don’t see as many women buying into that anymore. It exists but it’s not as prevalent as when I was younger. I’m sure this is the most controversial statement ever on a male-dominated site like Reddit but if you want to know from an actual woman’s account of things, most of the sexism I deal with these days is from men. But even if it weren’t I still don’t see lots of women working hard to peel back our own rights.
In your view do the women voting Right want safety and the plausible option of living a traditional wife life (or the option available for their daughters)? That’s sort of my working theory. There’s a number of things that’s disenchanting me from Left politicians but until trump dies I can’t even consider voting the other way.
> There’s a number of things that’s disenchanting me from Left politicians but until trump dies I can’t even consider voting the other way. Same.
Not the original commenter, but I don't think Women voting Right is necessarily about wanting the option to be a trad-wife or their daughters to be trad-wives. I believe that SOME of the allure of adopting that identity is a strange, conservative version of being a sort of pick-me woman, to signal to conservative men. It's also an easier path to power and influence as a woman, because there are few on the Right. I also believe quite strongly that many women on the Right will trumpet the virtues of being a Trad-Wife, because they want to force OTHER women into that lifestyle, not themselves. Being a trad-wife, in their minds, is for the poor. Got knocked up at 16 and want an abortion? Their answer is that you should have gotten married, had the child, and surrender to becoming a near slave for the rest of your life. Want an education and tax-funded assistance to get it? No way, find a man to support you and shut up. Need food stamps and Medicaid to care for your children as a single mom leaving a DV situation? Get married, accept the abuse and shut up. Imo it's all about punishing poor women.
Yeah, that's another thing. Both the genuine and the people who just do it for engagement
That’s a loud but small group
I read this as in favor of stripper women’s rights, and was very confused.
#FreeTheNipple
These "alpha males on TikTok" is more of a zoomer thing than millenial.
I think millennials are generally more open to the idea that we might have been wrong. I don’t think we’re particularly more or less misogynistic from our starting point than previous generations were. I do think that at our current age we are still able to think critically about the world around us, but that will continue to slow as we age. It’s human nature. We worked for hundreds of years to get where we are and generations before us also moved the needle.
I’m 35 and the older I get, the more adamant I feel about respecting women and gender equality. I feel like it’s gotten way better. Jokes I remember from my teenage years being the norm disgust me today and wouldn’t be appropriate anymore.
Personally I’m of the opinion that, due to the social and legal shifts of the past few decades that allowed more rights for women, the “better” of millennials are far less misogynistic. However, the “worse” of us are really really bad because positive social change always has insane backlash.
I agree. It seems like things improved dramatically in millenials timeline, and now we're seeing a backlash (ie. laws forcing pregnancies to continue)
I agree. The bad side is definitely worse, but the good side is definitely better. There’s just more of a divide. I mean, look at that man vs bear question everyone is so fired up about. There are lots of men saying that it’s concerning but understandable, and that men need to do better if they want women to not feel safer with a bear than a strange man. Then on the flip side, the misogynists are screaming that they’d enjoy watching a woman be mauled by a bear, just because women had the ‘audacity’ to state that they don’t feel safe around men. The irony goes right over their heads on that one. So yes, I think that the misogynists are fewer, but louder because now they have social media to scream their views and find communities of other people who feel the same.
Yeah, Libsoftiktok and justpearlythings were born in 95 and 96 and they're women.
My personal life experience says no matter the age, men don't like women in their 'areas'. It's not as blatant as you think. Most don't say things flat out, but they'll make a woman do more to prove she should be there. The constant expectation of failure. I got so pissed at guys trying to stop me doing my job because it involved heavy lifting. I finally made them stand back and watch me do the whole job by myself. Even that only helped a bit. Also, the major issue of not accepting a woman in a leadership role. My best friend has legit refused to take on leadership roles in the last 5 years at work because the 10 years before that showed her how shit it is to try to tell men what to do when your a little lady. She's earned her spot but she refuses to take it because it's not worth the struggle it'll apply to her life.
Yeah I admit I sometimes feel it's my place to help a woman who probably doesn't even need my help. It's crazy how ingrained into our minds that women are less capable and need us for things. Even me who is around strong Alaskan women all day who are probably tougher than your average southern guy. One unarmed Alaskan mom has more balls than an entire Uvalde police force for real
I'd say your best option is to ask, "What can I do to help?" Don't ask, "Do you need help?" I know it's weird but in woman world the first is respectful and the second is disrespectful. We operate a lot on undertones and do you need help has a lot of implied negatives to it.
Thanks. Honestly it didn't help that my dad taught me this is what gentlemen are supposed to do and always had me help and protect my my younger sisters. I've learned as an adult that people will probably ask if they actually need help. And women are all different, can't treat people like a monolith.
I think in many ways, we’ve gone two steps forward, one step back on a lot of issues. There have been gains but there’s also been setbacks. What has stood out to me more lately has been perception of gender. When I was growing up and becoming an adult, there was a shift from traditional gender roles to the belief that gender is basically a construct. As an example, that women could have short hair, work a manual labour job, not want kids, and still be a woman. We don’t need to restrict our interests, goals or appearances based on gender. Women can be whatever, men can be whatever, equality and all that. Obviously we weren’t totally there yet, but things were looking up. But now I feel like we are going backwards. Don’t get me wrong, I am a huge supporter of LGBTQ communities, and consider myself a member. But now if you’re a woman with short hair, labour job, no kids - you must really be a trans man, because those are man things. I worked at a college and while it’s great to see so many young people figuring out their identities, I did see a lot of kids look at their feminine interests and decide that they must be a woman, or vice versa. Sometimes they were right and discovered their gender identity (which is great, don’t get me wrong) but other times they realized that having those interests wasn’t about their gender. Some also swung hard into it - for example, being a trans woman but going hard on the stereotypes like being submissive and relying on a man to provide. Or being a trans man and leaning into toxic masculinity. It’s hard to articulate but it’s a weird trend I’ve seen in person and online. Basically, we were breaking out of those traditional gender roles but now we are choosing to put ourselves back in those boxes. With that I think comes a return or resurgence of misogyny.
I feel like there's a notable decline in benevolent sexism in millennials, which is good. But there's also a weird uptick in malevolent sexism, or misogyny, seen in the younger generations. So less putting women on a pedestal, more throwing women down in the dirt.
A lot of men today are positively gleeful at the idea that "equality" means they get to treat women like shit. "Oh you want equal rights? That means I won't protect you if I see you getting raped/attacked." "Equal rights means I get to punch you if you disrespect me, because that's what men do to each other". "Equal rights, equal lefts." "Equal rights, equal fights.", etc. The immediate, knee-jerk leap to violence when a woman mentions equality or feminism isn't shocking - misogynists gonna misogyny - but it's so tiring. It's also kind of hilarious that they act like there's ever been a time period in human history in which treating women like shit hasn't been the norm.
You see, it's equality to some men to keep women relying on and needing men for things like basic food and shelter. Because without that, why does any woman need him? He has nothing else to offer so to him it's equality to have a woman need him for something like he needs a woman for something.
Yeah, I'd say millenials are fairly egalitarian on the whole. Probably because we've been economically in the trenches together for so long. I see some alpha male sexism and trad wife BS from both males and females of GenZ though. It's weird, but I supervise a lot of young GenZ at work and I definitely overhear it.
I didn't fully experience the misogyny and patriarchal attitudes of our generation personally until I became a mother. It's been eye opening.
Why did it increase after you became a mother?
What I mean is that it is truly eye opening the amount of unpaid and largely unnapreciated labor you will be expected to take on as the "mom," as opposed to the dad. In my experience this imbalance happens in a vast majority of relationships, even the ones most committed to equality before kids. It takes a ton of really conscious effort not to slip into this pattern. Sure, it's not as bad as it used to be, but lots of millennial men skate by doing a lot less than their fair share, and their careers and interests outside of child rearing are still largely prioritized over their partners'. Edited to add: it's not blatant sexism, but the system in which parenthood operates is largely still very sexist and patriarchal and lots of men are perfectly ok with that status quo because it benefits them.
I would say yeah but I think the lack of respect for women is still there. Experienced it in some of my relationships with men. Mostly came up in regard to labor equity in the household and sex.
I think it’s less, but not by some huge margin.
And I'm not sure it's as much as attitudes changed as much as women speaking up for themselves. It's like racism. People still think things but they know better than to say them aloud unless they think it's a sympathetic audience.
Yeah I think it is better, but definitely there are still a LOT of problems with misogyny. I don’t take much personally and I still see it. My sister’s husband (age 35) and my father thought it was okay to keep a terminal diagnosis of stage 4 cancer from my sister, “because she is pregnant.” They entirely took the decision away from her because they thought it was best. They both think it is okay. It brought out an anger in me… he may not make it through the year. She gives birth in December! They were taking away an ability for her to spend time with him. She has 0 fertility issues and medical complications. I told her in the end. Have also had to deal with some things at work… I am an engineer and there are guys who think women aren’t suited for it. I am our subject matter expert now so they rely on me and don’t seem to think my gender makes me less at this point. Early in my career it was like swimming against the current.
Sorry, to clarify, who had the cancer? Sister’s husband or father?
Our father who was going to tell her and her husband said no. He is worried that upsetting her could cause an issue with the baby. It is coming from a caring place I think, but the due date means next to no time with him (they are close and always have been). (She handled it fine btw sadness but not hysterical by any means and no issues with the baby at her appointment post her knowing.)
I’m kind of disappointed if I’m being honest because I thought it would be much less by now. Sometimes it seems like faux progress
Think it depends highly on geography and economic class. In each community, some issues are better, some are worse. Grew up in a rural/conservative community. Grew up, moved closer to a large city, got an education. Some issues were better amongst millennials there, such as encouraging following a dream career and not pushing to get married/have kids young. But other things were worse. Pushed what I consider to be an ultra feminine appearance on me, insistence on fitting into whatever gender you are with strict rules on what a straight/LGBTIA+ person is "supposed" to look/act/sound like, obsession with "marrying well when the time comes," and being subjected to ridicule when I didn't fit into that. I couldn't stand it, moved back to my conservative area and to the friends I grew up with. Almost all blue collar. It mostly sucks, but it's the bullshit I'm used to and can at least understand. The men are mostly terrible, with the exception of my husband (who I didn't find until I was 29, ancient for this area). Even when not conservatively religious, the expectations are similar. Women are supposed to have kids, strive to be a SAHM, take care of the house, work an unimportant job for "fun" money and never question men in social situations. Women are mostly expected to be quiet and laugh at the men's jokes when friends and family are around. For example, a friend I grew up with recently married a woman he met when she was 18 and he was 28. They got married 5 years later, but in that time she had 2 kids with two other men and was engaged to each, before breaking it off and eventually getting back with my friend, having a 3rd child with him, and marrying him all before she was 24 and he was 34. Any time I say the quiet part out loud about their relationship, I'm shushed. Some things are better, but it mostly feels the same as the 1970s, especially with blue collar millennials
Your friend with the 3 kids and age gap reminds me of an article I read that really stuck with me on growing up female in rural america- kind of a sad read but I still think about it- [Atlantic article "The Forgotten Girls of Rural America"](https://archive.ph/2023.12.08-162053/https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2023/04/the-forgotten-girls-monica-potts-book-excerpt/673581/)
Thanks, yea I'd seen that article before, but was too scared to read it. I did just now though, and a lot of it hits really close to home. I'm from rural Pennsylvania, but most of it still feels very on the nose, especially toward my friend's wife. She puts pics on FB of the 5 stacked generations of women in her family photos, even looks just like the girls in the article, with the tattoos, makeup, tired and dehydrated looking despite still being so young. Still, most of my female family members are just the same. My mom married my father at 19, impressed that I should do the same or I would be "ruined," thought saving virginity was the only way to avoid trouble and be right w/ God sort of stuff. Female cousins all had kids as teens, live in trailer parks, no stability in the family, men in and out of jail, on drugs, abusive relationships. It's just really sad. It's still hard to relate to the social changes happening elsewhere, all the culture wars feel so distant and yet so close sometimes. Still feels like we're living in the 1970s here, if that.
On the one hand, sexism is talked about openly and confronted easier. It helps that serial offenders like Harvey Weinstein and Bill Cosby had a falling out. On the other hand, this generation gave birth to the incel phenomenon. A lot of people that would have been seen as the harmless geeky nerd have been slapped with this label for better or worse.
Maybe when we start getting pain meds for painful medical procedures, the healthcare industry is still rampant with misogyny and sexism. Older Dr or younger Dr, it doesn’t matter, still no pain meds when getting chunks of flesh cut out of your cervix by what is essentially a hole punch or when getting an IUD inserted. The tenaculum resembles a pair of scissors with sharp pointed hooks on the end for procedures that require access to the uterus. During IUD insertion the tenaculum is inserted into the vagina piercing the cervix tissue to seize and pull it steadily. You’re often told to cough for the pain. Many have reported that doesn’t work.
In real life, yes. Judging by the internet, absolutely fucking not, it actually feels worse.
I’m not sure anymore. Because of the rise of Andrew Tate, Jordan Peterson and male podcasters today. Sure there’s a lot of young people listening to those but there’s still some surely 30-40 year old men who are angry and spewing the same stuff. If you talk to a lot of single people trying to use dating apps 30+ it seems like a shit show. Guys with laundry lists of requirements for women or hostile profiles with insults towards women and old photos. Whenever there’s progress there’s a backlash and an attempt to go back and become even more conservative with some people. Then there’s the types who think a 50/50 equal relationship means both partners work and pay the bills but only the woman does all or most of the home upkeep, cooking and/or childcare.
Things are definitely getting better. However, the misogynist is also getting louder because they know to abuse social media.
I've been going back and watching TV shows from that era lately. Right now I'm on Kind of Queens and as background for my dog when I'm busy I'll play Everybody loves Raymond. I am seriously appalled at the racism, misogyny, and homophobia. I mean, I was definitely a lot like that at the time because that's what I grew up around and it was normalized, but I've since opened my eyes to reality and cringe at the jokes that are made. For some reason the time period really portrayed adult men/husbands/father's as giant babies who could get away with anything as long as they whined enough, and their wives would always get mad and later concede and apologize. What a wild time man.
Lately I feel like they're less misogynistic than younger generations, but maybe this is a reason to quit reddit
Honestly I’ve been thinking about quitting Reddit for other reasons too it’s just not what it used to be
The conversation has changed. Those in power now are at the very least cognizant. But yes locker room talk exists and racist talk exists. Being a very white older dude people of all types say the craziest shit… i also have a bible first name many people identify with also say some way too open about their beliefs
I think the scariest aspect of this is that looking back 20, 10, even 5 years back sure feels like we've stagnated on progress, but this year marks the 50th anniversary of women being able to get a credit card without a mans signature. The progress we've made in the past 50 years has been monumental, but equality is still so distant it feels like we've barely moved, even though we've made huge strides. I am doing my best to remain in outrage over our current lack of progress and backsliding, but its so hard when i am horrified by the literal thousands of years of essentially women being treated as property. Its on our generation to fix this. we cannot allow backsliding when fundamental human rights are at stake.
Hmm, i’m an elder millennial and the sexual violence my friends and I endured from peers was very high. I do like that younger millennials and gen z are talking about enthusiastic consent and such, but those dudes we dated who are 35-42 now probably didn’t just change and are still millennials.
Our generation is simultaneously more and less progressive than every generation before ours. Source: am woman
I can only speak from personal experience. But yeah. The guys that sexualised me from the age of 11, were mostly older. They were grown ass men who suddenly started treating me like a lust object when I was still very much a child. Sure there have been boys who had just hit puberty and were horny 24/7, but they didn't cross the line to sexual harrassment or sexual violence. With the exception of a certain ex when I was around 20, but he was the exception to the rule and it was a gradual process. Now, 20 years later, the guys who blatantly stare at my tits like they are the only interesting thing about me, are older men. The guys that'll talk over me and won't let me finish a sentence are older men. The pervert that grabbed both my tits from behind at a bar, was an older man. The pervert that wouldn't stop touching my ass, despite my objections, was older. The pervert who harrassed me on the bus and put his hand between my legs was older. The guy with a hand fetisj that kept asking to hold mine while sporting a very obvious hard-on, was older. The ones that stare creepily are older. The ones that ignore boundaries are older. The ones that think they are owed something, are older. Don't get me wrong, I'm sure there are mysoginistic assholes my own age, but those aren't the people I willingly surround myself with. Those older guys, they were either part of my parents' social circle (I know, ew. They made damn sure mom didn't notice their behaviour. Dad is oblivious because he can't fathom the idea that his kid is sexually attractive to guys his age), or happened to be in the same public space as I was. It's likely a 'younger person = easier target' kind of thing. Younger people tend to put up with more bullshit from others. If I have my 6,10 tall 3ft wide, darkhaired and bearded SO walking next to me, the only ones who will still try to harrass me, are older. I speak up and tell them to leave me alone, I get ignored. Then my bear-man says something along the lines of "you heard the lady" and they'll look mostly annoyed. Right up until my bear-man gets angry. Only then, do they realise that's a fight they don't want to pick. Funny thing, my bear-man is a softy and possibly the least testosterone-filled dude I ever came across. He LOOKS intimidating, but he's really a sweetheart that just wants to be loved. Speaking of, I have some lovin' to do.
The internet is a poor judge of these things, because it seems like it’s real life, but it’s just the vocal minority. Fact of the matter is, the majority of the time you only hear from people who have something to complain about, whereas most regular folk will just scroll on with a quick react, or not even be online at all. Those grifters you mentioned by name on the OP, I firmly believe that they don’t believe much of what they are spouting off to begin with, they’re just ‘engagement farming’ and because of how ad revenue is generated with our current models, they’re getting rich AF doing it. Anecdotally, I’m a blue collar worker at a steel mill, and in our breakroom it’s the older guys who are retiring soon who are telling “anti-woman jokes” or (super strange to me) talking shit about their wives. So, I feel like overall as a society we’re progressing forward. That whole overturning of Roe v Wade that happened in the states though…. That had my brain whirling… but I just chalk that up to the geriatric state of the people in power… I could be wrong though.
Absolutely spot on reminder about who generally posts on the internet. I always find it sad when people (men or women) find camaraderie by being demeaning to their partners. My thought is always "but what does it make of you, if that is your closest and most important relationship". I don't get what drives people away from putting all the energy they have in building a profound, respectful partnership with their spouse. It's the person you choose who will see you at your most vulnerable and have the most impact on your life. Neglecting the relationship sounds like a recipe for a miserable life. It's not easy to do it, but the alternative is bleak.
I think that’s just what they’re taught. Shitty people tend to make more shitty people. When they talk like that I just roll my eyes and think “why don’t you do both of you a favor, and just leave.” It’s amazing to me that they’ve been brainwashed into thinking remaining in a shitty situation and suffering through it makes you ”tougher” or “more of a man”, when in reality… what takes more courage then leaving a bad situation and having to rebuild? IMO, it’s a weakness, deciding to remain stuck.
Really good points, especially on the geriatrics in power.
That’s always really bothered me. Why are people deciding our future who wont be around to see it? I want someone with some skin in the game lol
Most are better, the worse are almost so much incomprehensibly worse leading, I think, to worse over all
It feels like it’s gotten worse. There were female empowerment movements. A lot of movies and books played this up. Current and recent Social media and politics feels like a backlash against progress made for women, women’s rights like abortion. There is definitely a push back and some misogyny like calling an asshole a Male Karen instead of just calling him an asshole which is also very hypocritical
Yes, except for “Red Pill” tradwife weirds
Based on my experience with sexual harrassment from men of all ages, I'm gonna guess no. Men are *shocked* to find out that I have thoughts, hopes, and dreams outside of my appearance. They're intimidated when then find out how educated I am, and they're defensive when I ask why they cannot contribute to the household as a partner. Maybe if millenial men actually voted to protect women's rights to their bodies then I would change my mind.
It's unsurprising to me that a Linux user would have high standards and be intelligent as well. Huh.
>Based on my experience with sexual harrassment from men of all ages, I'm gonna guess no. As a woman myself, not gonna lie, when I read this opening statement I chuckled because it's the saddest reality. While I do feel misogyny has improved over time, the unfortunate reality is that there are always men out there of all ages who continue to want to be this way and I feel like they enjoy making themselves be known.
The fact that I don’t know a single woman who has not experienced sexual harassment if not assault or worse stuns even the most evolved men, of any age. I’ll change my mind about men when enough can prove me wrong. Just wait until I get threatening DMs off this comment alone proving me right :)
I don’t know one single woman (who I’m close enough to discuss the subject with) that has not experienced sexual assault. Literally every single time it’s come up in conversation in a group of women, *all of them* have at the very least been groped on a bus, forcibly kissed by an acquaintance, or dealt with a “handsy” boss/teacher/coach. Yet almost every time it comes up with a group of men, some of them claim that they don’t know *anyone* who’s been sexually assaulted. Listen up lads, if you have this belief, it’s because you either don’t associate with women, or the ones in your life don’t trust you enough to tell you about it.
Same. I really don’t think non-offending men understand the magnitude of the violence we experience. Meanwhile, our hearts break again and again as we hear from yet another friend, family member, or colleague that they have been raped or assaulted.
We still have to be soooo careful about how we talk about the things we face every day which tells me people aren’t really ready to have the uncomfortable conversations yet, which is misogynistic in itself (constantly policing our anger over things that would make anyone angry if they were in our position). They want to pat themselves on the back for being late in realizing that women are actually people too - but you’ll still find them doubling down if you tell them anything they’re saying is misogynistic. It’s almost worse when they’ve decided they’re one of the good ones because they can’t be told they’re not. I’ve had guys shout me down & gaslight me anytime I talk about the things I go through, all to lecture me on those *same* things a few years later once they’re “enlightened” as if they are the experts on the subject because they finally understood what I was saying all along. It’s only valid once they decide it’s valid. They still get to be the gatekeepers even when they’re on our side.
Don’t forget being funny. A lot of men seriously hate when women are funny lol
I work with this guy Evans. He posts memes all day that nobody even reacts to and says he does it for the ladies lol. He dated one of the girls in my friend group and had her quit posting memes on Facebook, I guess he thought she was posting for the same reason he was.
Yes, but I’m concerned about Gen ZAlpha regressing.
I think we're less. maybe not much less, but less. the thing is, change like this happens over time, usually slowly. I know it's a popular talking point in some circles that there were always people ahead of their time on some social issue or another, and therefore everyone can adopt this enlightened view on the issue and just fucking catch up already, but that's generally not how it goes. it's a slow process.
I believe that we were the first generation to acknowledge it, our part in it, and then abandon it and grow. I also believe that it was because, unlike previous generations, we grew up with a mixed co-ed friends circle and weren't trying to fuck all of them. While I can only speak for my friend group during my teen years, we were not particularly forgiving about people attempting to SA or SAing our friends. We were the fafo type and believed more in street justice vs. calling the pigs. We knew the pigs to be misogynistic even if we didn't know the term itself. So yeah, I believe the Millennials to be the first generation to be far less misogynistic than previous generations. The exact cause, however, is likely to be a culmination of multiple issues we had with societal norms vs. being any one specific reason.
Yes there was still misogynistic tendencies. It was still prevalent all over entertainment. Jerry Springer WWF Music acts Movies like American Pie Certain video games like Duke Nukem
Depends on how you want to define misogyny. That seems to be a moving target these days.
Is this from an american point of view?
We were young adults during the tipping point. Not to say that there isn't further to go and there aren't still deeply embedded misogynistic attitudes that need to change. But a lot of the casual homophobia, ableism, racism and misogyny that were just facts of life and language all changed very quickly in terms of social acceptability during our highschool and college years. This was largely driven by the broad acceptance of this needed change by the millennial generation but also a direct result of the groundwork laid by the feminists and activists of previous generations who were often ridiculed for the things we now take for granted.
I think the recent popularity of influencers that have more misogynistic views is a reaction to the decreasing amount of acceptable misogyny in society. They needed a microphone to legitimize their views. But also I think maybe it'll go back up again because of these influencers. I think the gender gap in political parties increasing is a bad sign.
Of course! Not saying they’re perfect but better than previous generations is a low bar.
>Just off the top of my head, I think of Britney, Lindsay Lohan and the Olsen Twins - legit public discourse over whether a teenager had had breast work or the creepy coverage surrounding the 18th birthday and being "legal". This still happens. >Janet Jackson's career crashing because a man exposed her breasts on TV. This still happens. >It was a lot more socially acceptable for a 19 year old woman to be dating a 35 year old man too. This still happens and is arguably worse now than then. >Tiktok and social media have made the media landscape unrecognisable compared to the 2000s and earlier decades. We don't have a monoculture or rely on celebrity magazines anymore. This peeled back the private lives of people and celebs, what was once simply gossip is now backed by multiple photos from anyone with a cellphone. Makes it harder for people to hide who they really are. >it doesn't feel like much of a real win when women in the US have a supreme court taking away their right to an abortion. This was never a right to begin with, specially as states still had regulations in place in contradiction to the SCOTUS ruling before it was overturned and pushed solely to the states to decide, that's what lead to the decision to overturn it. Should it be a right? Yes. Should it be federally protected with zero chance of other interpretations? Yes. >On top of that, Daily Wire, Ben Shapiro, Candace Owens, Michael Knowles and other big far right figures are all millenials, and it feels like millenials and many in GenZ have attitudes to women that are even more misognyistic than previous generations. Please try to understand that the far right and far left are the extremes of the party lines. Those extremes do not represent the entirety of the those in those respective parties as most people fall middle left or middle right. However, while they represent the entirety of the party, they are usually the loudest people in the room. Are there people out there who share the same views as those on the extreme ends? Yes. Do all 80+ million people of their respected party believe that same bs? No. >Are millenials genuinely more progressive on misogyny compared to previous generations, or is it all just superficial political correctness? I want to say yes to being more progressive, but in all honesty it's more superficial political correctness. Dirty jokes, catcalling, dark humor, talking down on people, all of that still exists, the only difference is now people are more careful about what they say and who they say it too instead of just blurting it out. This goes for celebs down to Joe down the street. In the corporate environment it's even worse. We have committee's, social groups, women in the workplace events, happy hours, women only team building exercises, mandatory training courses for the men about women's health, all for support of women... and everything they push out screams they are only doing it to because they have to. When something comes across as being forced, it doesn't scream being more progressive.
I used to think so but it might just be my friend group One of my friends started dating again and I get all her misogynistic horror stories
Yea but I also think guys hide it better . There are some men tho that are socially aware and work on it but it’s still deep in our systems.
Gen z men seem to be extremely Misogynistic, so I would say so
No, and I don't think other generations hated women either. They definitely were unfair to women but when women got rights on par with men they became unfair as well in their logic and double standards. Does that mean modern women are misandrist or are they just exploiting the systems available to them like every one else.
I actually have to say that I feel like younger women are increasingly going back to dating men 10+ years older than them. I have zero interest in women below like 25ish and I'm 32 (even that is more like a hard line, I'd rather date someone roughly my own age), but they sure as hell seem interested in me. And I feel like I see more and more situations where I would be uncomfortable with that age gap in a relationship than I did 10 years ago.
Not sure. There are a lot of milenial incels which seems to be a worse problem than the boomer misogynists.
Sadly, no.
No not really.
Our generation is simultaneously more and less progressive than every generation before ours. Source: am woman
They're more misandrist
Media changes a lot quicker than people
No I don’t think so
If Gamergate and my time in the furry fandom (and by extension my time with bronies) have taught me anything, it's that while we may not say things in public spaces in the real world as much as we used to, there's still a lot of misogny, racism, some levels of homophobia, rampant transphobia, and general dipshit behavior going on. I don't think people really understand just how much the internet allows you to get away with something; after all, you can hide behind a made up online handle, persona, and even fake images and ultimately say whatever you feel like without the consequences of being in the same space as the people you're talking to.
They are very prejudiced against the elderly.
If you ask the generation 2 after us, I’m sure they’ll say we’re old and out of touch and stupid. This stuff happens to every generation eventually
I think that the misogyny has changed, but it's still prevalent. Just look at the bear debate. Just saw a post saying that women are overestimating their attractiveness when choosing the bear. Then there's the rise of alphas, "nice guys", incels, MGTOWs, & the fall of women's rights. There might be more men that aren't mysogistic, but the ones that are are just as bad, if not worse than 20-30 years ago.
Porn is inherently misogynistic and has dominated the brains of pretty much everyone for 20 years or so.
If you really want the answer to this question then a Reddit post is not the best approach, nor is any that has basis in public/personal perception. A person's view (and the publics view) of what constitutes misogynistic behavior varies tremendously between cultures, geographical location, socioeconomic status, and era (ie. Generations). Your examples are evidence of this.
The face of misogyny has changed. On one hand, women are treated more fairly in the workplace, or atleast, people refrain from being overtly discriminatory. OTH, influencer culture encourages women to pander to the male gaze. We want women to have equal opportunity and equal pay for the same jobs as men. We did not get that .. at least not to the extent that we hoped. Instead, we got women the opportunity to sell their bodies online to make insane amounts of money.
It wasn’t millennials who overturned Roe v. Wade. We *are* lurching toward greater misogyny, but hopefully it’s just the death throes of a fading generation. (Don’t forget to vote locally and nationally to stave off the christian nationalism sweeping the “conservative” party.)
I'm a millenial woman. I work in a typically masculine field. I come from a particularly feminist place (Montreal, Québec). I know I'm fortunate and this doesn't represent everyone's experience. I feel like I personally escaped a lot of misogyny. I feel like I was even given a lot of "passes" for being a woman. Don't get me wrong, there are assholes everywhere, and some are misogynistic. But I can't say that I face/faced systematic barriers, that I was treated lesser-than or that I feel like I was ever reduced to being a face, a body, or my sexuality. So, are millennials less misogynistic? The ones I'm surrounded with socially and professionally definitely are. I live in Japan now, and I see the impacts of very gendered roles everyday and I find it sometimes shocking. All of that said, there's one thing I find absolutely appalling about (western) Millennials, and it's the very casual, sometimes hyped misandry. As a feminist and a profound humanist, it hurts me so so much to keep seeing the dichotomy of women being encouraged to thrive and rise and find their place and men that are shoved and mistreated and dehumanized, and then silenced or shamed when trying to speak about it. I also can't wrap my mind around circumcision - it's literally genital mutilation. And it's so so common in the US, and sort of accepted... everywhere? And before anyone call me a Shapiro or Peterson apologist - I'm not. Card carrying environmentalist, feminist, liberal here 👋. It hurts me when I see living being hurting, and I feel like we don't care enough about male/men suffering.
Goodness gracious does this resonate with me. I went on two dates last week with a woman who literally could've been you until you said you are from Montreal ((she was from a different province)). I swear to you, it's like she was *committed* to misunderstanding me. I didn't even bother trying to defend myself, because her comments fell way below the "that's a reasonable perspective" threshold. I'm dating for the first time in many, many years and I couldn't be less impressed by how men are treated by women under the guise of feminism, "roasting" as a love language, being a strong independent woman or any other number of empowerment monikers. It feels like bullying, and it's not fun at all. I explained the night to a friend and she said "that's the type of woman that turns good men into assholes and then wonder why they're treated a certain way". Anyway, thanks for attending my TED talk, but also giving your perspective.
I'm so sorry you have to go through that. It sucks.
It's just a continued reminder in understanding what kinds of mutual agreements need to be established in order to facilitate better understanding. In defense of myself - I'm always very clear about discussing intentions with my language, communication styles, acknowledging how experience shapes translation - but there's a whole lot of folks out there who don't acknowledge their own gaps between what they say they want, and how they act ((men and women both)). I wish more people would ask "can you help me understand a bit further what you mean by that" instead of trying to understand through their own miscalibrated lenses and being ready for a fight! I don't blame anybody in particular - everyone sucks in a lot of ways - but *damn* was that exhausting 🤣
Yeah, I feel like a lot of the (very healthy) emphasis on validating feelings has translated in a lot of people feeling absolutely justified in having hateful behaviours once they're triggered. It's sad when people get drawn to hate rather than curiosity. I think it makes us poorer when we don't get the other side of the story, the "why is this important to you, what is precious, what is alive, what are you protecting, what do you actually mean". I unfortunately had to learn to quickly identify and pull away from people who feel entirely justified to be hateful when they disagree, and can't appreciate nuance and the two sides of the coin. There's a type. It's exhausting just trying to have a conversation - can't imagine a date. Then again, I guess hate fucks can be... fun (?) 😂🙃 (or... not)
I'm gonna go with...(Or...not) 🤣 Stay one of the good ones! 🫡
Agreed. There is a lot of mysoginy but the misandry is not to be disregarded. The vast majority of men, are fine people. I also think misandry hurts women's position in society more than it helps. Hatred begets more hatred. While misandry might be a reaction to mysoginy, it will only give rise to more extreme forms of misoginy. Which will give rise to more extreme forms of misandry, and so on. Men aren't our enemy. They are just people, same way women are just people. Nobody is perfect, anybody can be an asshole. Whatever is in your pants is really nothing to get excited about. Unless you're about to get freaky together, but that's the good kind of excited.
You remind me of myself. I've had anger at my own gender growing up because I wanted to be treated as AstrocyteDO, an individual. I didn't want people to look at me, see a girl, and treat me a specific way based on the fact I had a hole in between my legs that I did not ask for. Later on, I made friends with many amazing men who loved me for who I was. Only women pushed feminine things onto me. The first personal account I had of sexual abuse was my male friend in high school confiding to me about how his girlfriend threatened to get gang raped if he didn't impregnate her. As a child, I refused to listen to the girls and women pressuring or forcing me to be "girly." They told me to be careful around boys, careful around men...but, while I've met plenty of shitty men, they historically tended to accept me, and graciously bow out if I rejected any advances if they had attraction towards me. As an adult, though, things have gotten much better. I don't have to fight gender roles nearly as much. I have a great mix of male and female friends. Either way, my experience has made me extremely critical of how my fellow feminist liberals frame discourse about rape culture and whatnot. I see many otherwise intelligent women getting off to male tears or invalidating someone who is making an objectively rational point because they have something dangling between their legs. Purposefully inflammatory content that paint an intrinsic quality that someone possesses and equating it with something horrible promotes further division. It's one thing to criticize a concept such as toxic masculinity or casual misogyny that may seem normalized. It's an entirely different thing to extrapolate from that that it is a fair judgment to consider all men violent rapists until proven otherwise, and dare I say makes it harder for men who are victims of abuse or mental health problems to speak up. The court system especially is guilty of this. When I see my fellow feminists shitting on men, I think of the little boys crying to me for help.
No question. Just look at the old James Bond movies and the original Star Trek, for example. As a kid who grew up watching this stuff, then re-watch as an adult, is fucken embarrassing.
I did before the bear/man in the woods thing started. Now I'm convinced 50+% of men are terrible
Definitely. But the misandry seems to have gotten worst.
Of course. Look at the increased populations of professional women in the last 20 years. Not only are women excelling in our current economy, they are in many ways exceeding men.
No we are worse because we think we’re better
Yes, when we do it now it's satirical or ironic.
Less on average, but I think there's definitely a loud minority that's getting louder.
A huge wave of Misandry came from us tbh.
Individually, yes. As a group, a little.
I think normal millennials are much less misogynistic. Functional members of society tend to become increasingly progressive. Incels and manosphere freaks are a lot more aggressively misogynistic, though. They're not only casually sexist like guys from the '70s, or even as systemically sexist as people like the '50s and earlier. No, they **hate** women. Like, it's not even just the bettering of men's position, it's about deliberately and cruelly putting women down. Luckily, the average Andrew Tate fan probably drops him by the time he's 14 or so.
It’s a trend I hope we’ll see continue to grow.
Significantly so, but also many women are more comfortable with blatant misandry now which is awful too
I feel there is a lot more misandry than in the past, misogyny has died a lot. Really need to focus on the rise in misandrists now.
Dudes rock
NO
I think some are and some aren’t. A good chunk of us were raised on “entourage” and “the man show” so it complicates things. For instance, I feel like I respect women equally in every way but catch myself having misogynistic beauty standards from time to time.
I've had so many weird bosses and supervisors that make comments about women (I'm a guy) and its always made me feel super uncomfortable. I don't mind chatting about cute girls outside of work, but when your supervisor asks you if the person you just had a meeting with "was cute" it feels fucking awful. Never had this issue with someone within 10 years of my own age.
You're asking the wrong question. Instead, simply ask: "Must we continue to fight for our rights once we have earned them?" The answer is a resounding yes. We can't rely on gains made in the 70s and just coast on what was achieved in generations past, we need to continue to stand up for our rights and use our rights. Also, fuck hollywood. Those modern-day aristocrats don't give two shits about regular people unless they stop consuming their media. Meryl Streep blew a whistle at the end of her career when it was safe for her to do so. Google that image where Oprah is pretty much handing Britney Murphy to Harvey Weinstein. I just checked, it still exists.
When I watch movies from my (GenX) adolescence, I cringe at the casual misogyny. Millenials are more in their media bubbles than previous generations were (in their time). So there is definitely a lot of misogyny somewhere in some bubble. When we we all swam in the same media stories in the 80s and 90s norms were more enforced. There was no streaming- everything on TV relied on advertising revenue, so if anything was too transgressive (a boob falls out at the Superbowl, for example) there would be a meltdown. Now you can watch convincing simulated sex on TV, and sometimes it’s pretty rapey even though the context/plot is critical. People are less innocent now, and less blind to *some* kinds of misogyny, but also, Millenials relax to the casual violence against “hookers and hos” which is at an all time high.
In general I'd say yes, though there are still many, many things we learned that may not be outrageously misogynistic but still heavily support the patriarchy. I remember as a late teen snickering about Monica Lewinsky and the cigar and the blue dress and thinking what a slut she must have been. It wasn't until my 30's and 40's that I really began examining some of those attitudes and realized that they were things I had learned from my male role models and things I quickly needed to deprogram. Also during my early years of marriage I used to think to myself that if my wife just stood up for herself at work, people would stop treating her like shit. It was so obvious! Quit being a doormat. What I didn't realize then and what I'm glad she stuck with me until I figured it out, was the incredibly delicate balancing act women have to perform in the workplace between being a "doormat" or a "bitch" and how very little room there is between. So while most of us won't say "Women belong in the kitchen!", many of us still carry with us the implicit biases that are there own form of misogyny.
Idk for me it’s a person by person thing. The most misogynistic person I ever had the displeasure of knowing(and working for) was a 71 business owner. If anyone ever watched “king of the hill” he was Buck Strickland IRL. I quit that job because his office was a circus. I’ve never worked anywhere else that had even close to such a terrible personality at the top. Other than that it splits because I’ve met plenty of incels and other misogynists on the younger end so it really just depends on upbringing.
Always room for improvement, but yes.
One of the big themes in The Silence of the Lambs is a man wanting to transition to being a woman but is denied the surgeries and ends up going on a killing spree to make a woman suit.
People in general are better about it, but the people who are bad about it seem to be doubling down.
Yes, Millenials and Gen Z especially are tearing down the patriarchy.
No, slightly more. Although there is widespread acceptance of various feminine parts of culture, there is a deep vein of distrust of women in relationships, even amongst the married crowd. I have watched several men, including myself, be utterly devastated and with toxic perspectives and thoughts as a result of a completely random change of mind amongst partners. One day you’re fine, but then her friend gets single and starts dating again and now suddenly she FOMO and blowing up a perfectly good marriage for what can only be described as below mediocre dick with men who are the dregs of society with a million mile wide set of commitment issues and piss poor behavior to women, and then those women go back to dating and have a piss poor idea of men. And then everybody gets pregnant or laden with addictions and the line between weird “incel red pill” losers who stereotype and think all women are like that and men who have a legitimate grievance with a singular woman bouts so dangerously close it is becoming increasingly hard to differentiate it. All because 10% of women and 10% of men are given free reign to wreck homes and lives for 5 minutes of criminally and contemptible incompetent sex with a partner so lousy and forgettable, it should be a crime to even allow them to have sex to punish all the inadequate people out there who can talk the talk but couldn’t fuck the broad side of a barn.
It's gotten better, but things are far from perfect. It's one of those things where if you look back over your lifetime it doesn't feel like much change has made, but if you look at how things were over the past century you realize slow progress is being made.
I have a position that is usually held by males and deal with a lot of predominantly male industries. I've never had someone my age or younger call me sweetie or tell me they need to talk to my boss because he'll know what they are talking about. I've got that a lot from people older than me though. They about choke when I inform them SHE'S busy but I understand just fine. As an aside, pulling this is a sure fire way to guarantee I don't choose your company for the work we need done.
As a gay man, I'm a bit misogynistic. I guess I just veiw woman as annoying 😆
I'm sure they love you too! 😃