Isn't the system kind of weird in that tier 1 items *can* be as good as a tier 5 items? It's just less likely. Won't we want to identify every tier of item that drops regardless if it has a chance of being useful?
I guess it depends on the actual drop rate of everything, my understanding of the tier system was to avoid making more ground loot by making better ground loot, but we still want to pick up everything. Will we generally drop the same tier of item depending on our MF or is it pretty random? Obviously it's hard to speculate on how this will play out towards the end game.
>Isn't the system kind of weird in that tier 1 items can be as good as a tier 5 items? It's just less likely
If you know anything about statistics, you know that the odds of getting a good item rise exponentially with higher item tiers.
>Won't we want to identify every tier of item that drops regardless if it has a chance of being useful?
If you're going through the campaign, sure. If you're at endgame, and already have decent gear, probably not. Then again, the hooded one can identify your whole inventory at once, so it is more convenient to identify your stuff that way.
I dislike the reliance on identifying, because now we will just: identify all -> dump items -> regex good modifiers -> withdraw and sell them because they don't have anything useful
What they said is that higher Magic Find = Higher Rarity = Higher chance at getting Tier 5+ gear. Tier seems to be one of the ways to eliminate quant.
I think whether or not this system will result in people still wanting to pick up everything is too difficult to speculate with the limited information we have. I
Well if the one item has a 1 in 100 chance to be useful and the other 1 in 10000 you bet people will gravitate towards the first more the faster they are able to play/the more items are dropping.
I think there goal is that they don't want us picking up low tier items so we are not sifting through everything. So if my gear is all "T2" now then I shouldn't be looking at T1 now even though yes if I looked at 2k of them I might find one better it wouldn't be worth my time (or maybe only 2 tiers below wouldn't be worth it but you get the idea)
Their goal is the exact opposite. This isn't D4. They don't invalidate item categories by stronger item categories. Every item rarity has a reason to exist at all levels of play. They have been very vocal about this. If you choose to not look at T1 that is because you have decided it's not worth it as the odds are too low of it being good. But items aren't stronger based on tier.
They are 10000000% adding rarity tiers to help with sifting through items. They want item drops to matter and since they don't want to go the route of LE where they drop things identified they are having the item tiers allow you to do that for you. Jonathan even flat out said in the interview that you will get to points in your progression where lower tier items will probably not be something you want to filter out and that is a good thing.
Like the game director literally FLAT OUT SAID exactly what I just said but sure there goal is "the exact opposite"
It would honestly absolute piss poor design if they WERENT going for a way to sift through items in relative quickness because otherwise the ONLY gear that will matter is what is on the auction house not what you find from mobs. I honestly am not sure if this will fix that, but we will see.
They are not adding rarity tiers to help sift through items and Jonathan did not say that. It may have that effect due to the player deciding not to pick up lower tiers, but that is a choice the player is making. It's not a D4 system where Ancestral invalidates anything not Ancestral. The potential of all rares is the same and higher tiers just have better odds. A T1 can roll better than a T5.
The tiers were added as a system to increase value of loot without needing to increase quantity of loot. It's most definitely not a situation where "I have all T2 so no longer need to look at T1". Not that many items will be dropping in the first place. In most cases, base type is going to matter more than Tier. There are so many base types that getting a rare of the specific one you want isn't going to happen that often so you are likely to pick up all rares.
It's not a linear progression system due to the potential of every rare being the exact same. You're likely to filter out tiers based on how many items are dropping. If you are only getting a few T2+ items a map, you aren't going to filter out T1s. But if you are getting like 5 T5's a map, you may filter out all T2 and lower except for specific bases. You will still want specific bases for crafting.
Its not a system for filtering, you are just likely to want to filter on them? Ok, great counter arument lol. I never said it was a specific progression system, it was a way to allow you to sift through items without IDing them which is absolutely CRITICAL to make a game where drops from the ground actually mean something. We don't have that in POE right now and there is a reason why drops from the ground mean absolutely nothing and that is a gigantic part of it.
PS it 100% serves the exact same purpose as the D4 GA system in terms of what you pick up from the ground, it allows you to make decisions while items are on the ground if they are likely to have value for your character.
That's not what I said. Your whole argument has been this system has been created just so people can filter items better. That's 100% false and was never said by Jonathan as you claim. We know the reason they created these tiers as it was directly stated, but for some reason you are failing to get that and are trying to come up with your own reasons on why they made this system.
> it was a way to allow you to sift through items without IDing them
which is absolutely CRITICAL to make a game where drops from the ground actually mean something.
It's not and it's not critical at all. It wasn't even made to make drops matter more. They already had achieved that by changing crafting where you can't completely reroll rare items or downgrade rarity. Drops already mattered in PoE2 before the tiering system. The only thing they were trying to solve with the tiers is improving quality of drops without needing to increase quantity of drops. This has been directly stated.
The reason drops don't mater in poe1 is because of the chaos orb and the ability to downgrade rarity. This was also said back at exilecon. Instead of talking about things you don't know or understand, how about actually watching some videos where they explain this stuff?
PS: you did say it was a progression system. You literally talk about not picking up T1 items because all of yours are T2. That is a progression system and not how this works.
I did not say it was a progression system, I said that it was a way to filter items on the ground which IS how it works. As for it not being critical it 1000% is critical that you can identify what has value on the ground for items on the ground to drop to matter. Especially if you are going to have an AH. The AH will always be 10k times better than anything on the ground because of the volume of people playing the game that will put items out onto the AH. Ground drops will always be entirely irrelevant unless you do something about it because spending time IDing items is a fruitless effort when you can spend 10s finding the exact item you need on the AH.
I honestly am not sure that the Rarity Tiers will be enough to solve it, I think you need the LE system where you have the items ID'd and you can filter to items based on limited ways on those items to find items you are interested in.
I also never said it was a progression system, I was just giving a reason as to why you would start ignoring lower rarity items. If you have already found good T2 items or whatever you are probably going to stop looking at T1 maybe you won't maybe others will stop anyway. The point is that the rarity tiers give us a way to identify on the ground that item a is better than item b beyond just the base and make item a something that might be worth picking up.
The same argument applies in poe, but IDing all rares is not fun and not efficient. GGG want people to ID some rares and get excited when they do. This system achieves that. Combo that with the removal of scours and now you get stoked when you drop a T6 rare with a usable base and then it has good mods!!
You can compare it to fractured and influenced items. Sure, a perfectly rolled rare can compete with those, but it's less likely.
When I was new, I used to pick up every Vaal regalia, hoping for a good ES roll. And it's *possible* to get one. It's just not likely enough to bother.
If you want to identify every tier of item, you should. For those who don't find untiered rares interesting, they can filter them out. Same for every tier up to 5.
It means that if you get a high-tier drop it's definitely worth identifying, which is such a breath of fresh air for the loot system. I hope they implement it better this time, and that there aren't too many GG items like with Talismans.
Is that all it does? Or did he say that was one of the things it does?
I do think it'd be a bit lack luster to have 5 tiers of "get less bad affixes", but it probably mechanically works really well. Not very flashy, but design wise pretty clever now that I think about it.
It makes more sense when you consider the changes to crafting. You can no longer scour items, so the item crafting loop will be to find T5-6 rares with good mods and then use currency to improve on that start point. This also lets them cut the drop rates down a ton, like we only drop a couple high tier rare items per map or smth
Higher tier means the items are less likely to roll low level affixes, so if a tier 5 rare drops it's almost always worth picking it up, as opposed to PoE 1 where it's completely random so no one bothers picking up rares. Sadly, MF is also apparently going to affect how often higher tier rares will drop, on top of also making rarer currency drop more often, which will force eveyrone to dedicate 1/6 of the total affixes on their gear to a "useless" stat like Increased Item Rarity.
I think the tier system is going to be rolled only at point of drop, and not persist when rerolled with currency - otherwise everyone would just filter out everything below T5 and it doesn't really solve anything.
By making it a mechanic that only affects drop, this is a buff a IIR while diminishing the impact of IIQ, which the real problem with MF.
To my recollection, there are exactly 5 tiers of rares, uniques and currency. For some reason there are no tiers for magic items.
To me GGG has not been vague how the tiers for rares work. Jonathan said the items have a higher chance to roll better, and they are still thinking about the exact mechanics. If I remember things correctly that is. It was in the first PoE2 streamer test plays interviews, possibly in Talkative Tri video.
But to answer the question, I see it as something that encourages people to pick up loot and gives the rare oomphf for drops.
Here's a link to one of the interviews in which Jonathan discusses Item Tiers. (Timestamped)
[https://youtu.be/PP-P5oNCaB4?t=3230](https://youtu.be/PP-P5oNCaB4?t=3230)
I would guess that certain mods will still be restricted by item level. How I see this new system working is more removing the bad tiers of mod values. Like currently end game gear wants their mods to roll tiers 1-3 or so, if it rolls as tier 8 it’s worthless. How I would guess this new system would work is that an item drops at tier 5, it can only roll mods tier 1-4 or whatever it may be, 5-8 are no longer possible to roll.
Ultimately that’s just a guess though. I really hope they standardize these “tiers” though. The classic mod rolls has lower tiers being better and this new tier system for gear is higher tiers being better. That’s way too confusing lol
Honestly it sounds similar to how the graveyard works. Inrease mod tier rating to eliminate lower tier mods. Additionally you can always gamble with the new chaos orbs trying to eliminate a low tier mod and we still dont know much about actual crafting from hideout. Sounds promising overall!
>My question is then this, do you guys think that this will replace the current system of Mods being restricted by Item Level ([https://pathofexile.fandom.com/wiki/Item\_level](https://pathofexile.fandom.com/wiki/Item_level))?
Definitely not. This isn't D4 where one tier invalidates the existence of previous tiers. All tiers can roll all mods. Higher tiers just have better odds at being good.
As for "item buckets" they actually are:
normal, magic, Rare T1, T2, T3, T4, T5, Unique T5, T4, T3, T2, T1, T0.
Each bucket has its own drop pool.
At a guess, they've heard the term used in the context of Diablo 4 damage calculations and so it triggers a tribal hatred response. Kind of like how longtime Windows users bristle when they hear the word "app".
I assumed its a copy of the Last Epoch system where each tier has a range of values.
For example a T1 item might have 20-25 stat while a T4 item might have 35-40 stat. Item is the same, just the roll range for the stats increases.
Jonathan said that high tier items can't roll super-low tier affixes.
Isn't the system kind of weird in that tier 1 items *can* be as good as a tier 5 items? It's just less likely. Won't we want to identify every tier of item that drops regardless if it has a chance of being useful? I guess it depends on the actual drop rate of everything, my understanding of the tier system was to avoid making more ground loot by making better ground loot, but we still want to pick up everything. Will we generally drop the same tier of item depending on our MF or is it pretty random? Obviously it's hard to speculate on how this will play out towards the end game.
>Isn't the system kind of weird in that tier 1 items can be as good as a tier 5 items? It's just less likely If you know anything about statistics, you know that the odds of getting a good item rise exponentially with higher item tiers.
>Won't we want to identify every tier of item that drops regardless if it has a chance of being useful? If you're going through the campaign, sure. If you're at endgame, and already have decent gear, probably not. Then again, the hooded one can identify your whole inventory at once, so it is more convenient to identify your stuff that way.
I dislike the reliance on identifying, because now we will just: identify all -> dump items -> regex good modifiers -> withdraw and sell them because they don't have anything useful
What they said is that higher Magic Find = Higher Rarity = Higher chance at getting Tier 5+ gear. Tier seems to be one of the ways to eliminate quant. I think whether or not this system will result in people still wanting to pick up everything is too difficult to speculate with the limited information we have. I
Well if the one item has a 1 in 100 chance to be useful and the other 1 in 10000 you bet people will gravitate towards the first more the faster they are able to play/the more items are dropping.
I think there goal is that they don't want us picking up low tier items so we are not sifting through everything. So if my gear is all "T2" now then I shouldn't be looking at T1 now even though yes if I looked at 2k of them I might find one better it wouldn't be worth my time (or maybe only 2 tiers below wouldn't be worth it but you get the idea)
Their goal is the exact opposite. This isn't D4. They don't invalidate item categories by stronger item categories. Every item rarity has a reason to exist at all levels of play. They have been very vocal about this. If you choose to not look at T1 that is because you have decided it's not worth it as the odds are too low of it being good. But items aren't stronger based on tier.
They are 10000000% adding rarity tiers to help with sifting through items. They want item drops to matter and since they don't want to go the route of LE where they drop things identified they are having the item tiers allow you to do that for you. Jonathan even flat out said in the interview that you will get to points in your progression where lower tier items will probably not be something you want to filter out and that is a good thing. Like the game director literally FLAT OUT SAID exactly what I just said but sure there goal is "the exact opposite" It would honestly absolute piss poor design if they WERENT going for a way to sift through items in relative quickness because otherwise the ONLY gear that will matter is what is on the auction house not what you find from mobs. I honestly am not sure if this will fix that, but we will see.
They are not adding rarity tiers to help sift through items and Jonathan did not say that. It may have that effect due to the player deciding not to pick up lower tiers, but that is a choice the player is making. It's not a D4 system where Ancestral invalidates anything not Ancestral. The potential of all rares is the same and higher tiers just have better odds. A T1 can roll better than a T5. The tiers were added as a system to increase value of loot without needing to increase quantity of loot. It's most definitely not a situation where "I have all T2 so no longer need to look at T1". Not that many items will be dropping in the first place. In most cases, base type is going to matter more than Tier. There are so many base types that getting a rare of the specific one you want isn't going to happen that often so you are likely to pick up all rares. It's not a linear progression system due to the potential of every rare being the exact same. You're likely to filter out tiers based on how many items are dropping. If you are only getting a few T2+ items a map, you aren't going to filter out T1s. But if you are getting like 5 T5's a map, you may filter out all T2 and lower except for specific bases. You will still want specific bases for crafting.
Its not a system for filtering, you are just likely to want to filter on them? Ok, great counter arument lol. I never said it was a specific progression system, it was a way to allow you to sift through items without IDing them which is absolutely CRITICAL to make a game where drops from the ground actually mean something. We don't have that in POE right now and there is a reason why drops from the ground mean absolutely nothing and that is a gigantic part of it. PS it 100% serves the exact same purpose as the D4 GA system in terms of what you pick up from the ground, it allows you to make decisions while items are on the ground if they are likely to have value for your character.
That's not what I said. Your whole argument has been this system has been created just so people can filter items better. That's 100% false and was never said by Jonathan as you claim. We know the reason they created these tiers as it was directly stated, but for some reason you are failing to get that and are trying to come up with your own reasons on why they made this system. > it was a way to allow you to sift through items without IDing them which is absolutely CRITICAL to make a game where drops from the ground actually mean something. It's not and it's not critical at all. It wasn't even made to make drops matter more. They already had achieved that by changing crafting where you can't completely reroll rare items or downgrade rarity. Drops already mattered in PoE2 before the tiering system. The only thing they were trying to solve with the tiers is improving quality of drops without needing to increase quantity of drops. This has been directly stated. The reason drops don't mater in poe1 is because of the chaos orb and the ability to downgrade rarity. This was also said back at exilecon. Instead of talking about things you don't know or understand, how about actually watching some videos where they explain this stuff? PS: you did say it was a progression system. You literally talk about not picking up T1 items because all of yours are T2. That is a progression system and not how this works.
I did not say it was a progression system, I said that it was a way to filter items on the ground which IS how it works. As for it not being critical it 1000% is critical that you can identify what has value on the ground for items on the ground to drop to matter. Especially if you are going to have an AH. The AH will always be 10k times better than anything on the ground because of the volume of people playing the game that will put items out onto the AH. Ground drops will always be entirely irrelevant unless you do something about it because spending time IDing items is a fruitless effort when you can spend 10s finding the exact item you need on the AH. I honestly am not sure that the Rarity Tiers will be enough to solve it, I think you need the LE system where you have the items ID'd and you can filter to items based on limited ways on those items to find items you are interested in. I also never said it was a progression system, I was just giving a reason as to why you would start ignoring lower rarity items. If you have already found good T2 items or whatever you are probably going to stop looking at T1 maybe you won't maybe others will stop anyway. The point is that the rarity tiers give us a way to identify on the ground that item a is better than item b beyond just the base and make item a something that might be worth picking up.
The same argument applies in poe, but IDing all rares is not fun and not efficient. GGG want people to ID some rares and get excited when they do. This system achieves that. Combo that with the removal of scours and now you get stoked when you drop a T6 rare with a usable base and then it has good mods!!
you'll want to pick high tier common. Crafting bases will be something people will buy and sell a lot
I think the tier system only applies when id’ing items, not for crafting as well
I don't think it's weird. We already have ilvl likely blocking high tier affixes
You can compare it to fractured and influenced items. Sure, a perfectly rolled rare can compete with those, but it's less likely. When I was new, I used to pick up every Vaal regalia, hoping for a good ES roll. And it's *possible* to get one. It's just not likely enough to bother.
If you want to identify every tier of item, you should. For those who don't find untiered rares interesting, they can filter them out. Same for every tier up to 5. It means that if you get a high-tier drop it's definitely worth identifying, which is such a breath of fresh air for the loot system. I hope they implement it better this time, and that there aren't too many GG items like with Talismans.
That's the idea. More difficult content drop higher tier items. So you either play the difficult content or grind more for the same loot.
Is that all it does? Or did he say that was one of the things it does? I do think it'd be a bit lack luster to have 5 tiers of "get less bad affixes", but it probably mechanically works really well. Not very flashy, but design wise pretty clever now that I think about it.
It makes more sense when you consider the changes to crafting. You can no longer scour items, so the item crafting loop will be to find T5-6 rares with good mods and then use currency to improve on that start point. This also lets them cut the drop rates down a ton, like we only drop a couple high tier rare items per map or smth
I believe tiers are a drop only mechanic. They don’t have any effect on the item outside of the mods when it’s dropped/identified.
Higher tier means the items are less likely to roll low level affixes, so if a tier 5 rare drops it's almost always worth picking it up, as opposed to PoE 1 where it's completely random so no one bothers picking up rares. Sadly, MF is also apparently going to affect how often higher tier rares will drop, on top of also making rarer currency drop more often, which will force eveyrone to dedicate 1/6 of the total affixes on their gear to a "useless" stat like Increased Item Rarity.
I think the tier system is going to be rolled only at point of drop, and not persist when rerolled with currency - otherwise everyone would just filter out everything below T5 and it doesn't really solve anything. By making it a mechanic that only affects drop, this is a buff a IIR while diminishing the impact of IIQ, which the real problem with MF.
To my recollection, there are exactly 5 tiers of rares, uniques and currency. For some reason there are no tiers for magic items. To me GGG has not been vague how the tiers for rares work. Jonathan said the items have a higher chance to roll better, and they are still thinking about the exact mechanics. If I remember things correctly that is. It was in the first PoE2 streamer test plays interviews, possibly in Talkative Tri video. But to answer the question, I see it as something that encourages people to pick up loot and gives the rare oomphf for drops.
Here's a link to one of the interviews in which Jonathan discusses Item Tiers. (Timestamped) [https://youtu.be/PP-P5oNCaB4?t=3230](https://youtu.be/PP-P5oNCaB4?t=3230)
I would guess that certain mods will still be restricted by item level. How I see this new system working is more removing the bad tiers of mod values. Like currently end game gear wants their mods to roll tiers 1-3 or so, if it rolls as tier 8 it’s worthless. How I would guess this new system would work is that an item drops at tier 5, it can only roll mods tier 1-4 or whatever it may be, 5-8 are no longer possible to roll. Ultimately that’s just a guess though. I really hope they standardize these “tiers” though. The classic mod rolls has lower tiers being better and this new tier system for gear is higher tiers being better. That’s way too confusing lol
Honestly it sounds similar to how the graveyard works. Inrease mod tier rating to eliminate lower tier mods. Additionally you can always gamble with the new chaos orbs trying to eliminate a low tier mod and we still dont know much about actual crafting from hideout. Sounds promising overall!
>My question is then this, do you guys think that this will replace the current system of Mods being restricted by Item Level ([https://pathofexile.fandom.com/wiki/Item\_level](https://pathofexile.fandom.com/wiki/Item_level))? Definitely not. This isn't D4 where one tier invalidates the existence of previous tiers. All tiers can roll all mods. Higher tiers just have better odds at being good. As for "item buckets" they actually are: normal, magic, Rare T1, T2, T3, T4, T5, Unique T5, T4, T3, T2, T1, T0. Each bucket has its own drop pool.
Dear god, are the tiers going both up and down in items? Disgusting :D
Now higher number is better huh? There should be a standard for tier/rank. Sometimes it's better if higher, sometimes it's not LOL
All it does is add further steps to item filters
Please, stop calling them buckets lol
What is wrong with buckets?
what do you have against buckets?
At a guess, they've heard the term used in the context of Diablo 4 damage calculations and so it triggers a tribal hatred response. Kind of like how longtime Windows users bristle when they hear the word "app".
I assumed its a copy of the Last Epoch system where each tier has a range of values. For example a T1 item might have 20-25 stat while a T4 item might have 35-40 stat. Item is the same, just the roll range for the stats increases.