As someone running with a party of inexperienced players I liked the first chapter.
Introduce loads of NPCs and have an interesting influence system. Some very small bads to kill to start. A dungeon delvey section through rooms with hidden stuff. A meta type challenge against the fire, then the big boss where they get to see that Jamandi is a badass but still do their thing. It felt like it hit all the adventure check boxes.
My biggest gripes were the fact that stealing the Treasury had basically no consequences written into the book and inflated my parties starting gold so they didn't have an accurate understanding of how much they should reasonably have at that level. And also the power attack on the black tears boss being able to one shot level 1 characters very easily.
I'm sure more experienced players could have an issue with that meta game aspect but I personally have no issue suspending disbelief in order to make gameplay better.
Just so you know, Kingmaker never stops giving the players a ludicrous amount of gold. Someone on this subreddit made a chart, I'm sure you could find it if you dug a little, but playing the module as written gives the party double, triple, or more gold than what they should have.
My players and I loved it.
Why was she so high level? Her family name has a fighting system named after them, it would be very odd to have her low level. She is something the party can aspire to be.
PC / Creature level are meta info only available to the players. They thought that they brought enough big guns., they were wrong. If bad guys did not overestimate their power in an adventure, the PCs would always loose, I see no reason why this is any different.
"My players can't see any reason for their characters to even consider the endeavor if the dangers they are facing are so powerful they can't even damage."This is such an odd take, why would they think that they would constantly be fighting such powerful creatures? And even so, why would they be stopped? They are heroes aren't they? Do they really expect to defeat everything they see?
Fun fact, Aldori isn't actually a family name. People who want to join an Aldori dueling school take the Aldori Swordpact which involves changing your name as part of it.
I'm not asking for the lore wise explanation for her power. I'm questioning the narrative decision of having her be so above the power level of everyone around her.
Does it make it better for the players? No. they only felt like there was no reason for them to be there, that they were being treated like children instead of "heroes".
I already answered that above. She represents a level of power that they can aspire to obtain. It also makes the world feel more real. The noble class stay the noble class via combat prowess just as the players are trying to do.
So does that make it better for the players? Yes! The world feels more real. It is a clue that they are not the most powerful PCs in town. You will also notice that when giving out assignments the PCs are given the low hanging fruit mission. Not the important tough missions.
This all comes together to generate a high level of verisimilitude within the game. This is what separates TTRPGs from a wargame.
Honestly if the PCs felt that they were treated like children in this scenario, it feels that it didn’t come from the scenario but how it was relayed to them.
If they really felt butt hurt about it, they can always delve deeper into the woods and come back with tales of heroic deeds. They might get killed, but it would give you the chance to have her admit that she underestimated them.
Barring that make sure the NPCs they meet thank them for their service.
They don't need to be remained that they are not powerful. They are level 1, the lowest level. Saying noble people are powerful is once again a lore reason. I don't need that. I wanted a game design reason for that.
And again, this does not solve the issue that there is no reason other than metagame for the PCs to continue with this adventure. If this enemy sends 1 frost giant against them, they simply die. Why would they continue? One thing is saying that the unexplored forest might have dangers, another is saying that the enemies that attack them that night could easily kill them all and they will try again.
I will mirror was u/Koolaidguy31415 said. It is a great intro to the major mechanics of the game at level 1. Almost like a second beginners box. It is a bit videogamey but I think it accomplishes the intro to the system very well.
Because she needed "help" for what? the "boss" they fight literally cannot touch her. She could kill that enemy one 1 strike. She says they are "heroes" after that fight felt like she was lying to them, became clearly she did not need help at all.
Likes she's saying "look how cute those weakling pretending like they are helping me"
I removed the word 'heroes' from her speech as I figured she wouldn't call them heroes until they've done something heroic. If there's a word or phrase you don't like, then just change it.
*"My players can't see any reason for their characters to even consider the endeavor if the dangers they are facing are so powerful they can't even damage. The only "reasoning" for they to continue is meta-gaming, knowing they are not going to face this kind of monsters if they continue throw the indicated path."*
This can be said about every Adventure Path. Why would any level 1 PCs start on an adventure with so many high level enemies ahead? Level is a game mechanic that you just have to accept as a foundational part of the system.
I'm trying to migrate from DnD, and I've never encountered something like that. When you say "ahead of them" it should mean in an uncertain future, in this chapter It's literally right now they already fought giants.
My group just finished chapter 1 and we all loved it. I actually (jokingly) asked our GM about just leaving them to Jamandi and she told us that Jamandi would be pissed off. That seemed like a pretty reasonable explanation to me although it is a little disappointing to learn the book doesn’t account for that.
That scene is supposed to be the party fighting the bandit leader while Jamandi is 'busy' with the giants. Actually rolling her combat is a needless waste of time, even if she is going to steamroll the giants. Her fight is background to the pcs' one, not part of it. If it's that immersion-breaking for you, just haver her cut through 10 giants by the time the pcs are done with the bandits.
Her level 14 stats are not supposed to be player knowledge. In this chapter her role is narrative, not mechanical. She literally asks the pcs to deal with the bandit leader as she mops the giants. Were the pcs just to stand there and wait, first they'd get attacked by the bandits, and second Jamandi would probably think much less of them as adventurers.
If you read ahead in the adventure, the point of the Black Tears attack was not to kill Jamandi but to disrupt sending adventurers to the Stolen Lands, and that goal was achieved since most of the adventurers were successfully murdered in their sleep. That the Black Tears underestimated Jamandi herself is on them. I'd even argue their sponsor specifically sent low-level thugs in hopes they would all be wiped out, making it more difficult to be traced.
It's not a waste of time. It literarily does not work. The narrative is ignoring the rules because if you try to simulate it, she would kill the giants in a couple of round (considering the normal frost giants monster not the nerfed version).
I don't think that she would think they to be fewer adventures if they said they were wounded by fighting every other bandit they faced, they killed an ogre and a giant.
The players could just run away and leave it to her. Maybe if the bandits had stolen something of hers and the players had to retrieve while she is fighting (for real) against a powerful monster, it would be much better.
She is so powerful that it would be super easy for her to capture the bandit leaders and trace who sent them.
There is no need to treat written adventures as gospel truth. If scenes like those really don't work for your table, then have her simply enter the room just after the pcs kill the leader, covered in giant's gore and looking for the leader after killing everyone in her path, slightly impressed the pcs stepped up to the task.
I disagree with your last sentence. Considering what the AP tells you about who set the attack up and how they did it, I'd put investigating its source as a task more than level 14.
The pcs leaving it to her is analogous to someone staying in their room during a fire because they saw the firefighters' truck outside. They are equipped to deal with it, why should I try to protect my pets and possessions if such experts are on the case already? Stepping up during an emergency is what heroes do.
Yes level can cause dissonance, and if a table resists the initial call to adventure because there are more powerful people around it will always make things janky, but that's a problem every rpg has to deal with, not a flaw in PF2.
They were not up to the task, that's the point. If they tried to fight a frost giant for real, they all would die. And if I have to rewrite the book because the authors forgot that this is a ttrpg why bother buying an adventure path and not writing a hb campaign?
The task is killing the bandits. The sole purpose of the giants is to delay Jamandi while showing the players she is a superb fighter and would be a worthwhile ally. Using tricks like that to further the narrative without getting bogged down in mechanics is part of a gm's set of skills. I have suggested many ways to work around this depending on your table's preferences. Good luck.
I remember in the CRPG Jamandi already conquered the stolen lands before you, but due to the leader of her party dying to some curse the bureaucracy just drove her away allowing the stag lord to take over once again.
I also ran this and found the start up a little like the tutorial in a video game. The entire Black Tear thing could have been axed and just have the PCs start at the party and then be commissioned to explore the lands…. The rest wasn’t needed.
As someone running with a party of inexperienced players I liked the first chapter. Introduce loads of NPCs and have an interesting influence system. Some very small bads to kill to start. A dungeon delvey section through rooms with hidden stuff. A meta type challenge against the fire, then the big boss where they get to see that Jamandi is a badass but still do their thing. It felt like it hit all the adventure check boxes. My biggest gripes were the fact that stealing the Treasury had basically no consequences written into the book and inflated my parties starting gold so they didn't have an accurate understanding of how much they should reasonably have at that level. And also the power attack on the black tears boss being able to one shot level 1 characters very easily. I'm sure more experienced players could have an issue with that meta game aspect but I personally have no issue suspending disbelief in order to make gameplay better.
Just so you know, Kingmaker never stops giving the players a ludicrous amount of gold. Someone on this subreddit made a chart, I'm sure you could find it if you dug a little, but playing the module as written gives the party double, triple, or more gold than what they should have.
My players and I loved it. Why was she so high level? Her family name has a fighting system named after them, it would be very odd to have her low level. She is something the party can aspire to be. PC / Creature level are meta info only available to the players. They thought that they brought enough big guns., they were wrong. If bad guys did not overestimate their power in an adventure, the PCs would always loose, I see no reason why this is any different. "My players can't see any reason for their characters to even consider the endeavor if the dangers they are facing are so powerful they can't even damage."This is such an odd take, why would they think that they would constantly be fighting such powerful creatures? And even so, why would they be stopped? They are heroes aren't they? Do they really expect to defeat everything they see?
Fun fact, Aldori isn't actually a family name. People who want to join an Aldori dueling school take the Aldori Swordpact which involves changing your name as part of it.
Very good to know. Thanks
I'm not asking for the lore wise explanation for her power. I'm questioning the narrative decision of having her be so above the power level of everyone around her. Does it make it better for the players? No. they only felt like there was no reason for them to be there, that they were being treated like children instead of "heroes".
I already answered that above. She represents a level of power that they can aspire to obtain. It also makes the world feel more real. The noble class stay the noble class via combat prowess just as the players are trying to do. So does that make it better for the players? Yes! The world feels more real. It is a clue that they are not the most powerful PCs in town. You will also notice that when giving out assignments the PCs are given the low hanging fruit mission. Not the important tough missions. This all comes together to generate a high level of verisimilitude within the game. This is what separates TTRPGs from a wargame. Honestly if the PCs felt that they were treated like children in this scenario, it feels that it didn’t come from the scenario but how it was relayed to them. If they really felt butt hurt about it, they can always delve deeper into the woods and come back with tales of heroic deeds. They might get killed, but it would give you the chance to have her admit that she underestimated them. Barring that make sure the NPCs they meet thank them for their service.
They don't need to be remained that they are not powerful. They are level 1, the lowest level. Saying noble people are powerful is once again a lore reason. I don't need that. I wanted a game design reason for that. And again, this does not solve the issue that there is no reason other than metagame for the PCs to continue with this adventure. If this enemy sends 1 frost giant against them, they simply die. Why would they continue? One thing is saying that the unexplored forest might have dangers, another is saying that the enemies that attack them that night could easily kill them all and they will try again.
You be you then.
I will mirror was u/Koolaidguy31415 said. It is a great intro to the major mechanics of the game at level 1. Almost like a second beginners box. It is a bit videogamey but I think it accomplishes the intro to the system very well.
I did not motion the feat because I agree that it's an alright way of showing the social encounter mechanics
`My players found that Lady Jamandi Aldori called them heroes was patronizing at best and offensive at worst` Why, that makes no sense
Because she needed "help" for what? the "boss" they fight literally cannot touch her. She could kill that enemy one 1 strike. She says they are "heroes" after that fight felt like she was lying to them, became clearly she did not need help at all. Likes she's saying "look how cute those weakling pretending like they are helping me"
and i thought i was self conscious
I removed the word 'heroes' from her speech as I figured she wouldn't call them heroes until they've done something heroic. If there's a word or phrase you don't like, then just change it. *"My players can't see any reason for their characters to even consider the endeavor if the dangers they are facing are so powerful they can't even damage. The only "reasoning" for they to continue is meta-gaming, knowing they are not going to face this kind of monsters if they continue throw the indicated path."* This can be said about every Adventure Path. Why would any level 1 PCs start on an adventure with so many high level enemies ahead? Level is a game mechanic that you just have to accept as a foundational part of the system.
I'm trying to migrate from DnD, and I've never encountered something like that. When you say "ahead of them" it should mean in an uncertain future, in this chapter It's literally right now they already fought giants.
My group just finished chapter 1 and we all loved it. I actually (jokingly) asked our GM about just leaving them to Jamandi and she told us that Jamandi would be pissed off. That seemed like a pretty reasonable explanation to me although it is a little disappointing to learn the book doesn’t account for that.
Why would she be if it would take her less than 30 seconds to kill everyone there?
I personally thought she was cool
as long as your players dont know her level, it really doesnt matter
That scene is supposed to be the party fighting the bandit leader while Jamandi is 'busy' with the giants. Actually rolling her combat is a needless waste of time, even if she is going to steamroll the giants. Her fight is background to the pcs' one, not part of it. If it's that immersion-breaking for you, just haver her cut through 10 giants by the time the pcs are done with the bandits. Her level 14 stats are not supposed to be player knowledge. In this chapter her role is narrative, not mechanical. She literally asks the pcs to deal with the bandit leader as she mops the giants. Were the pcs just to stand there and wait, first they'd get attacked by the bandits, and second Jamandi would probably think much less of them as adventurers. If you read ahead in the adventure, the point of the Black Tears attack was not to kill Jamandi but to disrupt sending adventurers to the Stolen Lands, and that goal was achieved since most of the adventurers were successfully murdered in their sleep. That the Black Tears underestimated Jamandi herself is on them. I'd even argue their sponsor specifically sent low-level thugs in hopes they would all be wiped out, making it more difficult to be traced.
It's not a waste of time. It literarily does not work. The narrative is ignoring the rules because if you try to simulate it, she would kill the giants in a couple of round (considering the normal frost giants monster not the nerfed version). I don't think that she would think they to be fewer adventures if they said they were wounded by fighting every other bandit they faced, they killed an ogre and a giant. The players could just run away and leave it to her. Maybe if the bandits had stolen something of hers and the players had to retrieve while she is fighting (for real) against a powerful monster, it would be much better. She is so powerful that it would be super easy for her to capture the bandit leaders and trace who sent them.
There is no need to treat written adventures as gospel truth. If scenes like those really don't work for your table, then have her simply enter the room just after the pcs kill the leader, covered in giant's gore and looking for the leader after killing everyone in her path, slightly impressed the pcs stepped up to the task. I disagree with your last sentence. Considering what the AP tells you about who set the attack up and how they did it, I'd put investigating its source as a task more than level 14. The pcs leaving it to her is analogous to someone staying in their room during a fire because they saw the firefighters' truck outside. They are equipped to deal with it, why should I try to protect my pets and possessions if such experts are on the case already? Stepping up during an emergency is what heroes do. Yes level can cause dissonance, and if a table resists the initial call to adventure because there are more powerful people around it will always make things janky, but that's a problem every rpg has to deal with, not a flaw in PF2.
They were not up to the task, that's the point. If they tried to fight a frost giant for real, they all would die. And if I have to rewrite the book because the authors forgot that this is a ttrpg why bother buying an adventure path and not writing a hb campaign?
The task is killing the bandits. The sole purpose of the giants is to delay Jamandi while showing the players she is a superb fighter and would be a worthwhile ally. Using tricks like that to further the narrative without getting bogged down in mechanics is part of a gm's set of skills. I have suggested many ways to work around this depending on your table's preferences. Good luck.
If you are not supposed to be bogged down by mechanics, you should not be playing a rules heavy system.
I remember in the CRPG Jamandi already conquered the stolen lands before you, but due to the leader of her party dying to some curse the bureaucracy just drove her away allowing the stag lord to take over once again.
Play with the no level to proficiency variant. It makes the game feel much, much less video gamey
I also ran this and found the start up a little like the tutorial in a video game. The entire Black Tear thing could have been axed and just have the PCs start at the party and then be commissioned to explore the lands…. The rest wasn’t needed.
Yeah, perhaps it would have made more sense in 5e. The game did make a 5e supplement for stat blocks.