>So, you make a whopping 2×2 square of difficult terrain (note the "burst," not 3×3 "emanation") when you cast or sustain a hex.
I should note this is not super clear as written. If you read the [burst rules](https://2e.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?ID=2385), they say the following:
"A burst effect issues forth in all directions from a single **corner of a square** within the range of the effect, spreading in all directions to a specified radius."
But the familiar's ability is written as follows:
"When you Cast or Sustain a hex, you can cause ice to form in a 5-foot burst **centered on a square** of your familiar's space. **Those squares** are difficult terrain until the start of your next turn."
This is somewhat contradictory, because "normal" bursts are always centered on the corner of squares, not the center, and if the effect is on all squares touched by the burst, 5' from the center of a square is going to affect a 3x3 area. As such, I could totally see a GM interpreting the RAW to be a 3x3 area (all squares adjacent to the familiar).
On the other hand, if that were the intent, why not just write that it's a 5' emanation? Then we don't have any ambiguity. The 2x2 version is still ambiguous though...you can't *center* a 2x2 area on a single square, it's going to have to go farther in some directions than others. So a 5' burst centered on your familiar doesn't make a whole lot of sense unless perhaps you are basing it on the corner of a tiny creature's current location. But if that's the case, what happens if you use master's form? Which corner should it be on?
I can tell you at *my* table we just made it a 3x3 area (5' emanation). It makes the whole thing a lot more simple and are fine with it potentially being a slight buff to a pretty mediocre effect. But I wanted to point out that it's not quite as obvious as you imply here what size it's supposed to be or how it's supposed to be implemented.
>But also, there's no guarantee that they start their turn in a great position to utilize the ability, so you probably wouldn't be able to Hex, Command, Familiar Stride (to get the hell out of dodge).
That's a lot of actions. I would assume virtually every witch is going to pick up the independent trait just due to how useful it is. If so, your familiar can move once per turn without any actions from you, so Hex + Stride away is totally possible. Even with the 2x2 area, enemies will need to use at *least* 5' extra movement to reach you if the area is between you and them, so you can consider this effect essentially -5' speed with no save, or -10' if placed in a choke point they can't go diagonally around.
More importantly, it *stacks* with clinging ice, which is another -5' on fail or -10' on crit fail. If you stick your familiar next to a door with the free stride, hit a target with clinging ice on the other side (which automatically actives the area), a creature will need to use a *lot* of movement to get through that door. Most speeds are around 25', so losing 15' means they will likely need to use another whole action to reach targets on the other side. This can effectively be slowed 1 using cantrips for a single action, which should be self-evidently powerful, and depending on what you are fighting and positioning might cause that effect on multiple enemies.
Obviously this requires some setup and won't always work, but if your witch has good movement speed (and took fast movement on their familiar, a great combo with independent) you can have them kite enemies with 25' movement basically indefinitely, reducing them to 1 action in melee for minimal action cost on part of the witch.
Another handy use is to stick your familiar near your party's martials with reaction strike. Difficult terrain prevents steps for most creatures, which also means they can't move away from the party champion or fighter without getting smacked for it.
While I wouldn't say this is the strongest ability ever, it's also completely passive, better than, say, wilding, and paired with one of the better hex cantrips.
Hope that helps!
My guess as to why it uses a centered Burst instead of an Emanation is because of the part of the rules regarding emanations allowing the creature at the center of the Emanation to be unaffected.
I agree that it should be a 3x3 area
We had a Snow Witch at our table who was _incredibly_ strong with her use of slotted spells and hexes and subsequently never felt like she was missing out on anything by having a familiar ability that was literally never relevant. If having a familiar ability that does actually nothing is a bummer for you then ask the GM if you can just replace it with another ability. Not even another fancy special witch ability necessarily, just like... a normal familiar ability.
The main playstyle of Snow Witch is just that they have a 1-action cantrip that is worth spamming basically every turn and can put out very consistent damage compared to other classes. Electric Arc into Hex Cantrip is good damage at low levels, and then at higher levels you get almost bardic efficiency where every round can be a slotted spell plus a hex cantrip.
I've been playing Silence in Snow Witch and been more or less ignoring this ability unless I happen to be able to use it at the end of my turn. When you do this it can potentially mess with an enemy's movement enough to force them to move twice to get in melee range of you, but the stars really need to align for this to happen.
The other use I've found for it is if my familiar is already in position somewhere (I use the Familiar Master archetype with Familiar Conduit quite a bit) I can cast the hex or sustain the hex, have it create a patch of difficult terrain, then use an Independent action or command to move the familiar away afterwards. Again, things need to line up for this to work so I don't do it a lot, but if it's an option and doesn't otherwise cause any issues I'll take it.
It's definitely among the weaker familiar abilities but you do get a very nice hex cantrip and access to the Primal spell list in exchange.
Thanks! Out of curiosity, what kind of niche does the character fill? I was thinking of leaning into battlefield control with spells like Gust of Wind and Lose the Path since the Freezing Rime ability kind of has this vibe already
I'm my group's designated support caster, and the Primal spell list brings some decent options for that. Gust of Wind, Lose the Path, Fear, Goblin Pox, and Grease are good picks that tend to stay relevant, even as you unlock higher slots. In higher slots, Enlarge, Revealing Light, Haste, Slow, and Heightened Fear (3d rank, which targets multiple enemies) tend to be highly appreciated by the team.
> I was thinking of leaning into battlefield control
It's not a bad thought but be aware that the further you go in levels the more enemies tend to gain tools that can circumvent things like this. I'm currently at level 15 and there was a bit of a gap between 13 and 15 where almost every enemy could either fly or leap over all of my ground-based difficult terrain. Luckily, being a Witch you have the ability to learn new spells, including lower level ones, so when this starts to happen you can just swap the ineffective ones for different ones.
Primal also has access to heals and some tools like Sound Body, although you'll never outperform a cleric on that front. The only thing I've found very limiting about the spell list is that a lot of single target damage tends to target fortitude saves, which tend to be on the higher end on enemies.
Witch also gets access to some neat Hexes which can provide decent utility, with the biggest drawback usually being the need to sustain them. I'd look more at these for their utility than for their damage, Lesson of Death seems like decent damage but in practice the thing that I got the most out of it is the ability to inflict the Fatigued condition on enemies, even if they get a success on their saves.
A primal caster is about damage and terrain control with decent buffs and a few heal spells. I personally love the spell list.
Frostbite of course. Could carry around a light hammer to throw to take advantage of the weakness in the early levels. Cast and ranged strike are good to do.
Primal list has the good heal spell. Can turn it into damage/heal vs undead.
I like Grease over Gust of Wind personally. Hydraulic push could also work but it is an attack.
Runic Weapon if she wants to provide buffs.
Chilling Spray for theme but it's sometimes tough to pull off cones if players are flanking a lot. Snowball but that is also an attack.
Loose the Path is great but I personally think it's better when you start getting higher rank spells and can save it for when you need it.
Pest Form for later level shenanigans.
Fear is always good especially the third rank version since primal does not have a lot of will saves. This will also set up other casters and martial's for a better chance to do something.
Thunderstrike has a good debuff with clumsy and is good damage too. Could be a flavored for winter storm witch.
You're right to point out that the burst makes no sense, as being centered on the square isn't the usual placement for bursts (should be a corner). Further, it doesn't really work with flying familiars, which is honestly a big miss. I don't understand why they didn't make it a normal, corner targetting, 5 foot burst within like 10 feet or something.
Two circumstances: is the path 2 spaces or 3 spaces wide?
If 2 spaces wide, Freezing Rime (FR) cannot be side-stepped avoided. So these work in your favor in terms of slowing enemy approach (or retreat).
If 3 spaces wide, the enemy can ALWAYS side-step it and reach you.
Have yourself like this:
**Key:**
B = Barrier (like a wall/ally)
i = Difficult Terrain
_ = empty space
W = Witch
f = familiar
. = the corner you want to burst
B i. i
_ W f
Be at max range. If an enemy decides to approach you directly, they’ll have to spend 2 move actions to do so, meaning they only get 1 Strike on you. This works whether or not Clinging Ice slows them.
You’ll want to give your familiar Levitator in case it’s in a situation it has to cross its own difficult terrain.
(I used an excel spreadsheet months back to try and figure this out, trying to do a heat map with barriers).
You also have Gust of Wind perma-learned so you can cast Gust of Wind and have the familiar place the burst to your side/front.
This also assumes the enemy is likely 25ft speed.
It’s a defensive-utility type ability.
Very specific combo, but in the campaign I'm running one PC is a sprite witch with silence in snow patron and the corgi mount feat. Depending on which familiar abilities get picked, when she uses Patron's puppet she can have the familiar step, stride 25-40 feet, or leap 30 feet per action, and leave behind an area of difficult terrain as a free action. It makes her nearly impossible to catch up with for most basic melee enemies.
Ice can be a specific environment hazard stated in the GM core, it's not only Difficult Terrain but also Uneven Ground meaning people need to Balance or Fall Prone.
But you can easily argue it's not the case since it's not Capitalized.
The simple answer is that you can't really use it to much great effect, especially compared to the significantly stronger familiar options like Resentment or simply inflicting Frightened without a save.
difficult terrain is not that strong an effect in 2e. there's cantrips that generate difficult terrain as a freebie bonus on top of doing damage. most AoE control spells have difficult terrain plus an actual main effect. If it required enemies to spend an action to Balance like Grease or Winter's Sleet it would be much more comparable to Resentment, as is you're running a squishy familiar into near-melee ranfe to....give a side effect of Scatter Scree? Come on.
The main reason to go Silence in Snow is you want the one-action damage hex. a 5 foot burst of difficult terrain is just always gonna be meddiocre
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>So, you make a whopping 2×2 square of difficult terrain (note the "burst," not 3×3 "emanation") when you cast or sustain a hex. I should note this is not super clear as written. If you read the [burst rules](https://2e.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?ID=2385), they say the following: "A burst effect issues forth in all directions from a single **corner of a square** within the range of the effect, spreading in all directions to a specified radius." But the familiar's ability is written as follows: "When you Cast or Sustain a hex, you can cause ice to form in a 5-foot burst **centered on a square** of your familiar's space. **Those squares** are difficult terrain until the start of your next turn." This is somewhat contradictory, because "normal" bursts are always centered on the corner of squares, not the center, and if the effect is on all squares touched by the burst, 5' from the center of a square is going to affect a 3x3 area. As such, I could totally see a GM interpreting the RAW to be a 3x3 area (all squares adjacent to the familiar). On the other hand, if that were the intent, why not just write that it's a 5' emanation? Then we don't have any ambiguity. The 2x2 version is still ambiguous though...you can't *center* a 2x2 area on a single square, it's going to have to go farther in some directions than others. So a 5' burst centered on your familiar doesn't make a whole lot of sense unless perhaps you are basing it on the corner of a tiny creature's current location. But if that's the case, what happens if you use master's form? Which corner should it be on? I can tell you at *my* table we just made it a 3x3 area (5' emanation). It makes the whole thing a lot more simple and are fine with it potentially being a slight buff to a pretty mediocre effect. But I wanted to point out that it's not quite as obvious as you imply here what size it's supposed to be or how it's supposed to be implemented. >But also, there's no guarantee that they start their turn in a great position to utilize the ability, so you probably wouldn't be able to Hex, Command, Familiar Stride (to get the hell out of dodge). That's a lot of actions. I would assume virtually every witch is going to pick up the independent trait just due to how useful it is. If so, your familiar can move once per turn without any actions from you, so Hex + Stride away is totally possible. Even with the 2x2 area, enemies will need to use at *least* 5' extra movement to reach you if the area is between you and them, so you can consider this effect essentially -5' speed with no save, or -10' if placed in a choke point they can't go diagonally around. More importantly, it *stacks* with clinging ice, which is another -5' on fail or -10' on crit fail. If you stick your familiar next to a door with the free stride, hit a target with clinging ice on the other side (which automatically actives the area), a creature will need to use a *lot* of movement to get through that door. Most speeds are around 25', so losing 15' means they will likely need to use another whole action to reach targets on the other side. This can effectively be slowed 1 using cantrips for a single action, which should be self-evidently powerful, and depending on what you are fighting and positioning might cause that effect on multiple enemies. Obviously this requires some setup and won't always work, but if your witch has good movement speed (and took fast movement on their familiar, a great combo with independent) you can have them kite enemies with 25' movement basically indefinitely, reducing them to 1 action in melee for minimal action cost on part of the witch. Another handy use is to stick your familiar near your party's martials with reaction strike. Difficult terrain prevents steps for most creatures, which also means they can't move away from the party champion or fighter without getting smacked for it. While I wouldn't say this is the strongest ability ever, it's also completely passive, better than, say, wilding, and paired with one of the better hex cantrips. Hope that helps!
It does help! Very thorough and very informative. Much appreciated
My guess as to why it uses a centered Burst instead of an Emanation is because of the part of the rules regarding emanations allowing the creature at the center of the Emanation to be unaffected. I agree that it should be a 3x3 area
We had a Snow Witch at our table who was _incredibly_ strong with her use of slotted spells and hexes and subsequently never felt like she was missing out on anything by having a familiar ability that was literally never relevant. If having a familiar ability that does actually nothing is a bummer for you then ask the GM if you can just replace it with another ability. Not even another fancy special witch ability necessarily, just like... a normal familiar ability. The main playstyle of Snow Witch is just that they have a 1-action cantrip that is worth spamming basically every turn and can put out very consistent damage compared to other classes. Electric Arc into Hex Cantrip is good damage at low levels, and then at higher levels you get almost bardic efficiency where every round can be a slotted spell plus a hex cantrip.
I've been playing Silence in Snow Witch and been more or less ignoring this ability unless I happen to be able to use it at the end of my turn. When you do this it can potentially mess with an enemy's movement enough to force them to move twice to get in melee range of you, but the stars really need to align for this to happen. The other use I've found for it is if my familiar is already in position somewhere (I use the Familiar Master archetype with Familiar Conduit quite a bit) I can cast the hex or sustain the hex, have it create a patch of difficult terrain, then use an Independent action or command to move the familiar away afterwards. Again, things need to line up for this to work so I don't do it a lot, but if it's an option and doesn't otherwise cause any issues I'll take it. It's definitely among the weaker familiar abilities but you do get a very nice hex cantrip and access to the Primal spell list in exchange.
Thanks! Out of curiosity, what kind of niche does the character fill? I was thinking of leaning into battlefield control with spells like Gust of Wind and Lose the Path since the Freezing Rime ability kind of has this vibe already
I'm my group's designated support caster, and the Primal spell list brings some decent options for that. Gust of Wind, Lose the Path, Fear, Goblin Pox, and Grease are good picks that tend to stay relevant, even as you unlock higher slots. In higher slots, Enlarge, Revealing Light, Haste, Slow, and Heightened Fear (3d rank, which targets multiple enemies) tend to be highly appreciated by the team. > I was thinking of leaning into battlefield control It's not a bad thought but be aware that the further you go in levels the more enemies tend to gain tools that can circumvent things like this. I'm currently at level 15 and there was a bit of a gap between 13 and 15 where almost every enemy could either fly or leap over all of my ground-based difficult terrain. Luckily, being a Witch you have the ability to learn new spells, including lower level ones, so when this starts to happen you can just swap the ineffective ones for different ones. Primal also has access to heals and some tools like Sound Body, although you'll never outperform a cleric on that front. The only thing I've found very limiting about the spell list is that a lot of single target damage tends to target fortitude saves, which tend to be on the higher end on enemies. Witch also gets access to some neat Hexes which can provide decent utility, with the biggest drawback usually being the need to sustain them. I'd look more at these for their utility than for their damage, Lesson of Death seems like decent damage but in practice the thing that I got the most out of it is the ability to inflict the Fatigued condition on enemies, even if they get a success on their saves.
Thanks so much!
A primal caster is about damage and terrain control with decent buffs and a few heal spells. I personally love the spell list. Frostbite of course. Could carry around a light hammer to throw to take advantage of the weakness in the early levels. Cast and ranged strike are good to do. Primal list has the good heal spell. Can turn it into damage/heal vs undead. I like Grease over Gust of Wind personally. Hydraulic push could also work but it is an attack. Runic Weapon if she wants to provide buffs. Chilling Spray for theme but it's sometimes tough to pull off cones if players are flanking a lot. Snowball but that is also an attack. Loose the Path is great but I personally think it's better when you start getting higher rank spells and can save it for when you need it. Pest Form for later level shenanigans. Fear is always good especially the third rank version since primal does not have a lot of will saves. This will also set up other casters and martial's for a better chance to do something. Thunderstrike has a good debuff with clumsy and is good damage too. Could be a flavored for winter storm witch.
You're right to point out that the burst makes no sense, as being centered on the square isn't the usual placement for bursts (should be a corner). Further, it doesn't really work with flying familiars, which is honestly a big miss. I don't understand why they didn't make it a normal, corner targetting, 5 foot burst within like 10 feet or something.
Two circumstances: is the path 2 spaces or 3 spaces wide? If 2 spaces wide, Freezing Rime (FR) cannot be side-stepped avoided. So these work in your favor in terms of slowing enemy approach (or retreat). If 3 spaces wide, the enemy can ALWAYS side-step it and reach you. Have yourself like this: **Key:** B = Barrier (like a wall/ally) i = Difficult Terrain _ = empty space W = Witch f = familiar . = the corner you want to burst B i. i _ W f Be at max range. If an enemy decides to approach you directly, they’ll have to spend 2 move actions to do so, meaning they only get 1 Strike on you. This works whether or not Clinging Ice slows them. You’ll want to give your familiar Levitator in case it’s in a situation it has to cross its own difficult terrain. (I used an excel spreadsheet months back to try and figure this out, trying to do a heat map with barriers). You also have Gust of Wind perma-learned so you can cast Gust of Wind and have the familiar place the burst to your side/front. This also assumes the enemy is likely 25ft speed. It’s a defensive-utility type ability.
Very specific combo, but in the campaign I'm running one PC is a sprite witch with silence in snow patron and the corgi mount feat. Depending on which familiar abilities get picked, when she uses Patron's puppet she can have the familiar step, stride 25-40 feet, or leap 30 feet per action, and leave behind an area of difficult terrain as a free action. It makes her nearly impossible to catch up with for most basic melee enemies.
Ice can be a specific environment hazard stated in the GM core, it's not only Difficult Terrain but also Uneven Ground meaning people need to Balance or Fall Prone. But you can easily argue it's not the case since it's not Capitalized.
The simple answer is that you can't really use it to much great effect, especially compared to the significantly stronger familiar options like Resentment or simply inflicting Frightened without a save. difficult terrain is not that strong an effect in 2e. there's cantrips that generate difficult terrain as a freebie bonus on top of doing damage. most AoE control spells have difficult terrain plus an actual main effect. If it required enemies to spend an action to Balance like Grease or Winter's Sleet it would be much more comparable to Resentment, as is you're running a squishy familiar into near-melee ranfe to....give a side effect of Scatter Scree? Come on. The main reason to go Silence in Snow is you want the one-action damage hex. a 5 foot burst of difficult terrain is just always gonna be meddiocre
Fair enough
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