Game balance isn’t perfect, but that’s never gonna be the case anyway. It’s definitely better balanced than what we’ve had before.
Maybe the devs can have a look at some of the defenders other than that I think the current balance is good enough for me to enjoy the game.
It’s mostly a symptom of you need 2 people running exp share alongside s combination of supports not being very good outside of competitive play and then there aren’t that many defenders in the game.
I’d rather be a defender than a blissey or hoopa when I can barely communicate with my team.
100%. Defenders aren't that unbalanced. You need at least one on your team, and there's only a few, so they get massive pick rates. I'd love a tier list that assumes every team has one mon of each role and then divides the pick rate by the number of pokemon that have that role.
Umbreon can be a defender or a support, and also isn’t really going to be countered.
Blastoise can be an all rounder or a defender, only really countered by buzz and that’s if they try to force all rounder.
These are versatile picks and safe early picks.
Tree is up there because he’s tanky af and has ridiculous CC.
Slowbro is further down because he’s good for countering certain mons/team picks. He’s also a safe pick.
There really aren’t any other tanks that are viable in draft. It’s easier to pick tanks first and these are the best ones. Then supports and carrys are later to avoid being countered
Just want to add that you are overlooking Crustle. Its only issue is that Crustle's biggest counter is umbreon so as long as Umbreon gets banned or not-picked, its a great draft choice.
It has consistenly been doing well in rank with over 50% WR for a few months now, has amazing zoning potential, solid aoe stuns, and huge bulk. It definitely belongs in the upper group of defenders. With that, I do agree that characters like Umbreon and Blastoise have the lead on Crustle, but I would put crustle in the same level as Tree and Slowbro.
(Keep in mind with what I'm about to say, that do I agree that Crustle is an underrated Defender)
I do think Crustle has another issue, that being it has a higher skill floor than the other good Defenders (so not Mamo, Lapras or Goodra), which means that someone not already very familiar with playing Defenders, and more specifically Crustle itself, is going to avoid picking it. It's like how Blaziken isn't a common pick, but it's still doing good WR wise
Like I said, I do think Crustle is underrated, but I'm not surprised that it is, and that there are some people who don't consider it viable
That entire argument has nothing to do with all the players that know that skill floor and have gone well above it already. I’m saying Crustle is deserving of that spot alongside Trev and Slowbro in competitive play not that it’s good enough for bad players to do well with
>That entire argument has nothing to do with all the players that know that skill floor and have gone well above it already.
That's because those aren't the players I'm (and to an extent, OP) talking about. I'm talking about the players who *don't* main tanks, but can still play the role if need be. These players (who are, even assuming a balanced distribution of mains (20% for each class), the majority of the player base) are far less likely to pick Crustle because of the higher skill floor, which is what hurts its draft viability, especially in ranked, which is where the data (majority of, at least,) we are discussing comes from.
I know Crustle is good, because I've seen it do well in tournaments, but I also know there's a reason it's not a common pick, even in said tournaments
I don't know why you're getting down voted, these tanks are absolutely overpowered when compared to other defenders, and I'm counting the days til at least Blastoise, Umbreon, and trevenant get nerfed
I don't have as much of a problem with Slowbro for some reason, he is strong for sure and I could see it getting nerfed but he isn't as oppressive as the other three, that's why said at least the three of them should get nerfed soon.
I mean, yeah, there are still some very broken characters around, like Blastoise. But not having EXs around made this meta much more refreshing. We're not in a state where "you have to have this character on your team, or your chances of winning will be almost non-existent", like how it was when each EX mon was released. The meta is in a healthier and more enjoyable state right now. People never said the meta would be in a perfect state if EX mons were banned.
I agree that the meta is better now, but I don't think just banning ex pokemon was the right choice. Just nerf them enough to be mid or rework some of their busted abilities. I would say to some extent before their bans ex pokemon were not that overpowering, when stuff like buzzwole and the eevees were running rampant.
I still think the meta is better off but it's kinda sad that if ur favourite pokemon was mewtwo x from when you were a kid and you can't use it even though it's in the game (cus all the modes other than ranked is dead). But then again Timi don't care and nerf pollen puff damage and buff machamps defence by 10.
Yes blast is broken but I feel like I rein and tree are even more. Tree can rank, deal damage, cc it’s really an all rounder I would say better then most, I have seen tree deal 100k in damage. Unreason can 1 v3, can heal, and it just a headache those todo are far more broken then ballast at the moment.
>We're not in a state where "you have to have this character on your team, or your chances of winning will be almost non-existent", like how it was when each EX mon was released. The meta is in a healthier and more enjoyable state right now
Yeah, that was when EX mons were newly released. However, there is not a single EX mon that falls into that category currently. Not even Miraidon even though he will be needing some late game nerfs on his speedster moveset but that's about it. My point is that the EX mon bans from rank doesn't affect/improve the experience really because the release level EX characters are long gone.
It's hard to say it's in a more enjoyable state now overall. This influx of Defenders and CC heavy characters make the game much less enjoyable mainly for two certain roles (ARs and speedsters). There are only 2 speedsters and 2 ARs in the top 15 pick rates : Gyarados, Mimikyu, Leafeon and Scizor. If you notice, 3 out of 4 of them have tools to avoid CC to some extent. Mimikyu has SS and play rough, Gyarados has Bounce/waterfall and Dragon current and Leafeon doesn't need to commit too much.
If you try to play balanced melees like Tsareena, Azumaril, Zeraora, Aegislash etc it just feels miserable.
> My point is that the EX mon bans from rank doesn't affect/improve the experience really because the release level EX characters are long gone.
This is entirely untrue at all, especially if we refer to the picks for Pokemon last season when the EX bans were lifted. I do have to state ahead that the experience is more recognizable the higher you climb, but there IS a reason why EX Pokemon were used often in pre-Master games, even in today's season where they could only be used in non-Master games.
Zacian remained a lane bully that can snowball pretty heavily with momentum, and Mewtwo Y was still being used by aggressive DPS players because a well-disciplined Teleport behavior pretty much makes him ungankable on his own. Miraidon's usage meter was difficult to gauge because he was introduced that season and suffered from the "oooh, new Pokemon" syndrome, but his move chaining system pretty much feeds off anything immobile, which is what most Defenders are even to this day. The only thing that fell off hard was Mewtwo X, and that's because he was simply a worse Mewtwo Y that trades safe engages for unga bunga brawls, which he's still pretty decent at.
Even when nerfs eventually came their way, it only got rid of their overpowered state. They still saw relatively moderate use especially among more competitive players that played in duos and trios and that could coordinate with their use. There's a reason why we all continue to meme about Mewtwo Unite being a SUPER SAFE objective checker or secure, for example.
To say the bans from these EX Pokemon doesn't affect or improve the experience is undermining what their previous and current state are. I can tell you with pure confidence that teams would've LOVED to save a ban pick for Mewtwo Y or Zacian if they remained active in the draft mode and suspect that teams would try to build around these EX Pokemon.
EX license are used more in pre-master games because people know it's the last time they would be able to use them (for a while). Not to mention pre-master games tend to have lesser experienced players so they don't know how to play around certain characters.
EX is just a label at this point.
There is not a single EX character right now that makes the game feel one-sided. Miraidon needs nerfs on his speedster moveset but his early game is very slow and is quite manageable by the opposing team.
Characters like Trevenant, Blastoise, Slowbro, Leafeon, Mew, Gyarados are just as good as any EX character.
>I can tell you with pure confidence that teams would've LOVED to save a ban pick for Mewtwo Y or Zacian if they remained active in the draft mode and suspect that teams would try to build around these EX Pokemon.
I'm pretty sure you're correct and I'm also positive that banning Mewtwo Y or Zacian would be a waste unless you're against a sweaty trio or it's a case of 5vs5. It's stupid to ban something like Zacian which is picked very less and hardly hard dominates games anymore when you have countless overtuned characters that can easily counter him.
I’m getting the feeling you are arguing in an all or nothing way. It’s either “let EX Pokémon in draft again” or “see these characters are just as bad as EX Pokemon” when it i don’t think those are the only viewpoints.
This is a game that is continuously evolving. Sometimes it gets worse and sometimes it gets better. Draft with EX pokemon sucks. Draft with overpowered defenders is annoying, but it’s slightly better than when it had EX pokemon too. But what about after a patch or two and some of those defenders get nerfed? Well, it may become quite reasonable and fun. I think you are arguing for EX Pokémon to rejoin wayyyyyyyyyyy too soon. Draft is incrementally getting better. It’s not perfect, but it’s on its way. Removing EX Pokémon was a good decision and should stay. The next good decision should be to nerf a few of these overpowered defenders.
Honestly I feel like this is a result of the increasing availability of draft this season. People look at these numbers and think defenders are all OP right now but think back to your games people. How many (masters) games have all defenders? Even more than 1 defender? I'd venture very few.
Due to the nature of draft pick, teams generally always include 1 defender/supporter, and the pool for defenders is very small compared to attackers+allrounders. And people are allergic to supporters in general so that slot tends to go to a defender. If every masters draft game has 1 defender almost guaranteed and 4 others, then of course the pick rate for the limited defender pool will be skewed upwards compared to the rest.
So funny that you mention that. I actually did the stats for usage within roles last week and the stats havent changed much.
The TLDR is roughly
50% The Defenders are used, 50% The Speedsters are used, 70% the Attackers are used, 25% The All Rounders are used. 40% the Supports are used.
But when you go into their role niches.
80% the ADCs are used. (Literally everyone besides Duraladon)
60% the Medics are used (Comfey and Clef are significantly below the curve)
And the only Defenders that dont see use, are "nonfunctional" Greedent, Lapras and Goodra.
Ill also point out Double Defender comps arent uncommon. And that even in the context of Umbreons frequent bans. There are 4 Defenders with exceptional usage.
Imo people are looking for the wrong things. its more that theres a baseline that characters need to hit to be considered
People are making pretty deliberate drafts.
It really depends on expectation and copium ratio how the changes impact things
The strats, comps, and principles are the same. Its the same meta but the roles the EX played were handed off.
And genuinely the EX mons had better results than the ones who have taken the reins, but i feel its worth note that the biggest strength of the EX mons was consistency.
Cinderace and Greninja have both spiked to 20% usage and Glaceon to near 30% but M2Y had a more consistent game, and the results to match. Sitting at near 54% WR before his ban. (I say that but Blaze Charge Cinder is performing basically on par with M2Y)
Miraidon is a bit more interesting, Mew and Pikachu have both spiked probably for their early game oppression. But Delphox as well has been on the upward rise. Miraidon actually saw more success when played as a "Speedster" his Mage build if memory serves wasnt performing that strongly before his ban.
I feel like if people thought everything was gonna change theyre now getting their rude awakening but if people were just expecting to have a handful less pokemon that are strong to deal with regularly they partially got what they wanted.
Last Season Miraidon had an inflated banrate and cartwheeled through your backline 30 times.
This Season Zoroark has an inflated banrate and dashes through your backline 30 times.
goddddddd mood :(
me, calling jungle after waiting a few seconds to see if anyone else snagged it first: oh boy, im so excited to jungle as my main, meowscarada!
15 seconds later, after everybody else has called attackers/all-rounder/speedsters: .....alright, defender it is...
Yeah that's especially rough bc everyone wants to be Jungle and carry the game so you need to rush that pick fast, and then just to fill so your teams squishier mons actually get the safety they need to get more than 1 move in is such a thankless job.
yeppppp i joke that im a fill main because i mostly just fill in my teams' missing roles, ahaha.
i LOVE jungling, because it almost feels like being the "team captain," particularly in the laning phase when your ganks really sway the flow of battle, but luckily i also really like playing support too; it feels more akin to being the team's manager, doing the behind-the-scenes work so your stars can thrive... though in solo queue it feels more like being a teacher at an understaffed preschool 🙃
regardless, i take my defender role seriously when i fill it. im like the squishies' bouncer/body guard. (me, a slowbro, body blocking icicle spears so my mage can survive/escape): GET DOWN MR. PRESIDENT!!!
I don't understand why tank meta wouldn't be a healthy one? It creates a more slow-paced and strategic game in my opinion. Now Speedsters and All-rounders can't just dive and pick up a 3 elim without much risk. Tank meta also enables more team synergy. Attackers (mages) can actually be mages with high damage output while being very squishy as they are being protected by tanks.
Defining these roles, is fundamental for a healthy meta game, otherwise every mon needs a bit of everything (CC, disengage/mobility, damage, healing etc.) which creates balancing issues (already quite rampant when seeing some Buzzwole players being able to heal more than some defenders). So to me this is actually a step in the right direction, now just make the CC a tad bit less and the sustain better and we're getting somewhere imo.
This is all fine when defenders have good defensive stats and low damage and/or mobility to compensate for that, which isn’t the case. If defenders are designed to be front liners who soak damage for their team and probity utility, they shouldn’t have the damage to one shot squishies or the mobility to chase down stragglers they couldn’t one shot.
They’re not kitable at that point and are essentially all-rounders with the utility levels of a support, outlive all rounders due to sustain and/or CC resistance, and is arguably the least skill expressive in terms of class/role design.
Exactly. I know Unite is full of people like me that were MOBA noobs but have we really reached a point it needs explaining why blantantly overpowered mons with good damage output, sustain and CC all rolled into one with often minimal skill requirements are unhealthy for the game?
I agree with your points when talking about Blastoise and potentially Trevenant, but if you're getting eliminated by a single Umbreon or Snorlax in the mid to late game, I would argue that's a skill issue on your end. These mons are themselves literal tanks and very difficult to take down, but have little mobility and very low damage output. Not saying that Umbreon wouldn't deserve a nerf, but that's not because of it's damage whatsoever, but because of it's obnoxious CC and sustain.
Some defenders could use a nerf, but I am yet to see/experience a match where Snorlax, Umbreon or Lapras did more damage than the attackers/AR/speedsters on the same team except for when it was due to their lack of skill.
Most of the skill expression of defenders comes to play in team dynamics, positioning and taking the lead while not distancing themselves too much. It's less mechanical and more tactical in my opinion. But I don't necessarily disagree with your core points, I just feel they might be slightly over exaggerated.
It’s Blastoise and Trevenant. Umbreon is in a different category but is problematic in a way where it has the utility of a support while also having the bulkiness of a defender. This on its own isn’t game warping until you factor in Mean Look, which is almost ALWAYS an ultimate ability in other MOBAs.
> These mons are themselves literal tanks and very difficult to take down, but have little mobility and very low damage output.
Tanks and supports could be overpowered without factoring the damage output (which is the basis of this community). It is about the utility they could give instead:
- Umbreon: mean look is overpowered without the range nerf. it has low cooldown and no counter at all. his unite also overpowered (they really should limit how much shield he could take, as there is a hero in other Mobile MOBA that almost do the same thing).
- Slowbro: a self healing tank that couldnt be countered with cursed item with his passive, which is 'cheating'. unite move that hold opponent 3 secs without being able to be cleansed or cancelled, where the counters are giving shield (blissey, score shield (but if that pokemon is the lowest health around).
- lapras (pre nerf): could not be bursted down easily because of the passive and it outheals the damage because of the boosted heal. no counters as no cursed item back then.
I probably couldnt articulate it well but because of how the game designed. It is 10 min game. It should be fast pace.
> otherwise every mon needs a bit of everything (CC, disengage/mobility, damage, healing etc.) which creates balancing issues
Which is exacrly the problem with current meta tank.
No. Not a single defender other than Greedent deserves a buff atm. The lesser picked defenders are picked much less because they are outclassed and overpowered by the broken defenders on the top not because they are bad.
Lapras is very balanced tbh. Doesn't deserve any buffs or nerfs. Same as Mamoswine and Goodra. These 3 are in a good spot imo. Greedent and Snorlax deserve buffs, I feel like they are the weakest tanks right now. Snorlax is only viable in competitive play, and fairly useless anywhere else. And Greedent needs an overhaul. The remaining tanks all need to be toned down (Umbreon, Trevenant, Blastoise with bigger nerfs, and Crustle and Slowbro with minor nerfs). If those things all happen, I feel like we'd have a very even playing field in terms of defenders.
> "...People just don't know how to play around it."
While this is true for the "Never My Fault" unskilled crowd that can't play around anything but the most obviously telegraphed moves (just recall the Gengar complaints after his broken Hex days but before his range nerfs), it's still undeniable the CC is way outta control and is getting worse as powercreep increases.
Because he is overpowered defender too, and always been since 1 1/2 year now. Saying he has high PR because he countered OP pokemon simply false as shown in this statistic.
Wouldn't say op but it's annoying when slowbro has a team that backs him up . I like when his team leaves him to fend for himself in those situations his telekinesis, waves, or ult move aren't enough to ko 2 or more .
I'm tired ppl saying he is not OP just because he couldnt KO 2 or more by himself because that is not why he is OP.
He is consistenly being top defenders choice despite reason you said above. He always been top priority pick in any esport. He never had PR below 10% for 1 1/2 year now. And ppl think he is not OP because he couldnt kill anyone.
It is the same as saying Goodra is OP because she could sustain and brawl several mon at once while using unite move.
People confuse “the meta” with the actual games they play.
The meta isn’t balanced per se, but the characters that are in meta right now are good but not game breaking.
The Mewtwo, Miraidon, Zacian metas were characters that could kill you in seconds and lead the whole game in kills and damage.
MOBAs go through stages, but a meta that favors supports or tanks is going to be way more fun than one that favors damage dealers.
People always want to complain and will never be satisfied. We're never going to get a 100/x pokemon % flat rate for everybody. This is definitely one of the more refreshing metas in the game despite some pokemon still needing tweaks.
Every team that wants to win in ranked will need a defender. Because the defender pool is smaller and pokemon like Snorlax and Greedent are niche, people will gravitate towards the other 5, inflating their winrate. Supporters are less common but if one is chosen it is more likely to be Eldegoss or Umbreon. Attacker and All-rounder pools are deeper so it's more spread out. The balance is very close to fine.
The more pressing issue is the game needs to better reinforce how players can get better to ensure more equal games. Or a new map please.
Looks pretty healthy to me. There are 3 times as many all rounders and attackers as defenders and supporters. So if you need one of each in a game, defenders will have a higher pick percentage, since the picks are split between fewer total characters. Seems people are sleeping on Crustle though. Umbreon does feel strong.
I have gone back to 1 tricking Pikachu again only I have now dropped Focus Band since I feel the value it gives me for putting on or surviving pressure in the early game is no longer worth the hit to late game.
My god I now see why. Pikachu is just such a safe early pick when ya start ending being the 1st or 2nd player in the lobby. It has a mage and picking move set that handle tanky teams and dive teams respectively as needed. Thus whether the enemy starts loading up on tanks, healers, or speedsters I rarely have to fret. But above all I have realized the deceptive ability for Pikachu to just become a sleeper once you unlock Unite and get the ability to just ego Unite fed opponents. Especially with the EBall buff the damage you can get with the appropriate items and levels can be wild.
It’s been a real help with how inconsistent people are at drafting. Now that draft is a frequent thing I feel my other mages like Gardevoir have taken a big hit since if I lock those early the enemy knows just what to do to counter them. And Pikachu can still hold its own against the prevalence of all these defenders.
As a zeraora and blastoise main that’s been away for a while I’m glad to see one of my mains is still meta. How bad or average is zera if anyone is willing to tell me? I was close to getting the max ribbon on him and was curious if it’s worth it
While I still agree with people who say we need more defenders, it’s really hard to want more when so many of them are this good. I could easily make the argument that at least 5 defenders are s tier.
Again while I agree we need more defenders overall, there are more top tier defenders to choose from than top tiers of any other role. And it’s been this way for multiple months in a row.
> at least 5 defenders are s tier.
there are 5: umbreon, trevenant, blastoise, crustle, slowbro. the rest are not par to those 5 (Mamo + snorlax PR < slowbro PR)
> And it’s been this way for multiple months in a row.
It needs to be changed.
Tell me why is slowbro not deserving nerf as much as umbreon trevenant, blastoise and umbreon. Tell me without saying "slowbro is good for counter pick the OP Pokemon". It takes a broken pokemon to counter broken pokemon.
This stat shows that he needs nerfs as much as other 3. Not to mentioned Slowbro always up there for 1 1/2 year now. Oh well, he might as well get a buff because upcoming purple skin.
No, Slowbro's pick rate only rises in an All-rounder or speedster heavy meta. He's the only defender that can consistently keep OP melee characters in check. He falls off when the meta is more balanced.
Oh. Wait 😮. Nvm.
> He falls off when the meta is more balanced.
But he never fall off when the meta is more balanced. Remember the period of 'grace' before Mewtwo X release? Where everyone claimed it was the most balanced meta ever that time? Yes, he is still up there.
Funny that most picked roles are attackers now aside from defenders. He is still up there.
> But he never fall off when the meta is more balanced. Remember the period of 'grace' before Mewtwo X release? Where everyone claimed it was the most balanced meta ever that time? Yes, he is still up there.
I'm pretty sure this is OP's point - he was parodying the common Slowbro excuses like "B-but Slowbro counters the OP mons!"
OP says "nvm" after the sarcastic "fall off" comment because the Unite API screenshot shows Slowbro has a high pick rate anyway, even when there aren't blatantly broken damage mons like prime Mewtwos and Zacian running around. Which proves that the "counters OP mons" is a weak and poor faith argument in terms of game balance.
The truth is that Slowbro's popular because he's very easy to use (Telekinesis is the only outlier) yet easy to succeed with unless his player is a noob/bonobo and/or his entire team are horrifically useless. On top of that he's memed and well-liked in the Pokemon fandom as a whole, plus his licence is free so pretty much everyone can use him.
I know he is being sarcastic. /u/RE0RGE is one of few redditors here that acknowledge that Slowbro has been at top of ~~food~~ defenders chain.
> unless his player is a noob/bonobo and/or his entire team are horrifically useless.
This always been the point for not nerfing Slowbro. But which other Pokemon doesnt have this weakness?
> on top of that he's memed and well-liked in the Pokemon fandom as a whole
So favoritism to the pokemon is a factor.
Sorry mate, thought you were responding seriously because you didn't see the sarcasm but you were just responding to add onto the conversation. Sorry.
>This always been the point for not nerfing Slowbro. But which other Pokemon doesnt have this weakness?
Exactly. "Don't nerf supports, they only become strong if allies are good!" 😂 A lot of Slowbro's weaknesses apply to multiple other mons too, yet he's still impacted less by them. The Cursed item thing being a classic example - rightfully screws over annoying sustain mons but not him!
>So favoritism to the pokemon is a factor.
Potentially, yeah. An example being after the new producer got appointed, they're pretty much only adding popular stuff to the roster. No more niche/forgotten mons like Crustle, Greedent, Eldegoss, Dodrio, etc.
Imma gonna put this down to there being a relatively small pool of viable defenders to play atm. There are 10 defenders in the game, 5 of them are very viable and in a great place in the current meta. Out of the other 5 you have Greedent who ain't ever gonna be most picked, Goodra who is very mid, Lapras who was nerfed out of the game, Mamo who has never really been meta relevant and Snorlax who is just there.
The viable defenders all are in a good spot and aren't too over tuned tbh. If there were more defenders and more in a viable place in the meta then I think you would see those numbers alot lower.
On the flip side, there are like 46 mons in the All Rounders/Speedsters/Attackers classes, so people who want to play a damage dealer carry have much more choices to go with. Hey why you don't see such crazy high pick rate numbers.
Honestly think the best fix for defenders in general so you don't see the same mons picks all the time isn't soo much to nerf them but make more mons that counter play them and also make some small buffs to the other defenders to make them more appealing.
Honestly this is so much better than the-
*Looks at Mewtwo Y and other Attackers that break the game*
(Shudders)
Never again..!
(But to be fair the Defenders as a whole finally have their spot on the light after being shafted for almost 2 years since the game came out. It feels very satisfying seeing Defenders and Supports get their moment of fame.)
I mean…it’s better than if EXs were legal at least. Meta’s just so CC heavy that it feels like you have to play something that doesn’t get murdered by cc though.
Was it explained why EXs are only banned in masters? I don't play very often so I haven't gotten there yet, but last time I played in veteran I matched into a miraidon and mewtwo and that was just such an unfun match
Not gonna sugar coat it game is actually getting worse and worse ever since Mewtwo x came out. The game is way too stressful to play as a solo player really don't think the game is gonna get any better here on out it's definitely gonna get worse and worse I can just sense it.
And if the leaks are true of Ho oh being added then that proves my point even more. I'm gonna drop the game as in when I reach master every season I'm not gonna come back anymore I'm done with this boring bs. Tired of getting one shit from Scyther tired of getting mean looked and I'm tired of leafeons 0 iq one shot attacks. I get it game is made for kids but shit that's why the anime and the mainline are a thing why did you have to add into your side game too? It doesn't even have a story I forgot the aeos island lore cause it was so bland and non existent it sucks cause I really liked this game man but the more I play every season the dumber my teammates get I swear!!!!
Also stop adding eeveemons wtf!?! You could be adding haxorus,hydreigon, Ditto,Aggron,Hitmonlee,Gurdurr all of these cool pokemon but no you wanna add crappy looking ones that no one asked for!
The copium was palpable before the ban even happened.
I think the funniest thing is that all the really obnoxious characters who were arguably more annoying than the EX mons, are now more played
Honestly, and this is just my take, Blastoise is the most ethical pick here. Idk the last time blast got buffed and what it was, and idk why everyone all of a sudden is picking on blast as a troublesome Mon to play against, but Umbreon and Trevenant (imo) are much more annoying to deal with.
Umbreon and Tree have crazy sustain, something Blastoise really doesn’t have compared to them, while also boasting decent damage output. Honestly Tree should’ve been nerfed yesterday but since I love the char I hate to see it nerfed. Blastoise on the other hand operates as a defender generally should w/ Hydro Pump+Surf providing CC and displacement without an insane amount of sustain (like tree) but also with enough damage that you should respect it.
The thing is, many players of this game will turn their brain off and WKey then complain when they get rolled if that strat doesn’t work. I’m not saying some defenders aren’t overturned but you gotta play into them smart. Desperately nagging for buffs/nerfs won’t make you a better player.
> Blastoise really doesn’t have compared to them, while also boasting decent damage output
Compared to umbreon and trevenant. Blastoise doesn't really need sustain because he is ranged.
> also with enough damage that you should respect it.
Which he shouldn't, utility tank + damage will break the game. Blastoise has long range, a lot of CC and enough bulk to sustain. It doesn't need the damage too.
I think they have left behind some pokemons in terms of buffs and so, like Cinderace, it doesn't deal enough damage to counter the actual meta. And besides, there are some pokemons with stupid passives like Eevees and it invulnerabilty or damage like Blastoise.
I know a game can't be perfect balanced but damn... they have a lot of work to do.
If you have a problem with all the characters, maybe you should stop playing the game ? I mean why always criticizing all aspects of the game ? If you don’t have fun anymore, just play another game
I never said I have a problem with *all* the characters. I hardly criticize anything other than metas that stick for way too long. Not sure where you got all that from lol but quite a strange comment to make.
Umbreon- battle pass on a already strong pokemon a pleasure
Blastoise - already great mon that get level 7 evo and no nerf to compensate
Trevenant > reserve small nerf to one moveset overbuff the other to compensate >> both moveset are now great
Eldegoss > still can a press you to death level 3
Pika / scixor > i spam my button and hope for the best
Glaceon/mew being meta/ broken since release
Game balance isn’t perfect, but that’s never gonna be the case anyway. It’s definitely better balanced than what we’ve had before. Maybe the devs can have a look at some of the defenders other than that I think the current balance is good enough for me to enjoy the game.
No Defenders is gona be the most picked ever The defenders in question on here lol
It’s mostly a symptom of you need 2 people running exp share alongside s combination of supports not being very good outside of competitive play and then there aren’t that many defenders in the game. I’d rather be a defender than a blissey or hoopa when I can barely communicate with my team.
100%. Defenders aren't that unbalanced. You need at least one on your team, and there's only a few, so they get massive pick rates. I'd love a tier list that assumes every team has one mon of each role and then divides the pick rate by the number of pokemon that have that role.
Umbreon can be a defender or a support, and also isn’t really going to be countered. Blastoise can be an all rounder or a defender, only really countered by buzz and that’s if they try to force all rounder. These are versatile picks and safe early picks. Tree is up there because he’s tanky af and has ridiculous CC. Slowbro is further down because he’s good for countering certain mons/team picks. He’s also a safe pick. There really aren’t any other tanks that are viable in draft. It’s easier to pick tanks first and these are the best ones. Then supports and carrys are later to avoid being countered
Just want to add that you are overlooking Crustle. Its only issue is that Crustle's biggest counter is umbreon so as long as Umbreon gets banned or not-picked, its a great draft choice. It has consistenly been doing well in rank with over 50% WR for a few months now, has amazing zoning potential, solid aoe stuns, and huge bulk. It definitely belongs in the upper group of defenders. With that, I do agree that characters like Umbreon and Blastoise have the lead on Crustle, but I would put crustle in the same level as Tree and Slowbro.
(Keep in mind with what I'm about to say, that do I agree that Crustle is an underrated Defender) I do think Crustle has another issue, that being it has a higher skill floor than the other good Defenders (so not Mamo, Lapras or Goodra), which means that someone not already very familiar with playing Defenders, and more specifically Crustle itself, is going to avoid picking it. It's like how Blaziken isn't a common pick, but it's still doing good WR wise Like I said, I do think Crustle is underrated, but I'm not surprised that it is, and that there are some people who don't consider it viable
That entire argument has nothing to do with all the players that know that skill floor and have gone well above it already. I’m saying Crustle is deserving of that spot alongside Trev and Slowbro in competitive play not that it’s good enough for bad players to do well with
>That entire argument has nothing to do with all the players that know that skill floor and have gone well above it already. That's because those aren't the players I'm (and to an extent, OP) talking about. I'm talking about the players who *don't* main tanks, but can still play the role if need be. These players (who are, even assuming a balanced distribution of mains (20% for each class), the majority of the player base) are far less likely to pick Crustle because of the higher skill floor, which is what hurts its draft viability, especially in ranked, which is where the data (majority of, at least,) we are discussing comes from. I know Crustle is good, because I've seen it do well in tournaments, but I also know there's a reason it's not a common pick, even in said tournaments
Lowkey why would I bring any healer over umbreon They all keep getting nerfed at their kobs
None of those defenders are balanced. Their pick rates being high is not solely due to them being safer picks.
I don't know why you're getting down voted, these tanks are absolutely overpowered when compared to other defenders, and I'm counting the days til at least Blastoise, Umbreon, and trevenant get nerfed
funny that you don't count slowbro as overpowered as he is also up there and has been so for the longest time. probably I read your sentences wrong
I don't have as much of a problem with Slowbro for some reason, he is strong for sure and I could see it getting nerfed but he isn't as oppressive as the other three, that's why said at least the three of them should get nerfed soon.
This community has a massive boner for defenders and supports for some reason lol.
Agree
I mean, yeah, there are still some very broken characters around, like Blastoise. But not having EXs around made this meta much more refreshing. We're not in a state where "you have to have this character on your team, or your chances of winning will be almost non-existent", like how it was when each EX mon was released. The meta is in a healthier and more enjoyable state right now. People never said the meta would be in a perfect state if EX mons were banned.
I agree that the meta is better now, but I don't think just banning ex pokemon was the right choice. Just nerf them enough to be mid or rework some of their busted abilities. I would say to some extent before their bans ex pokemon were not that overpowering, when stuff like buzzwole and the eevees were running rampant. I still think the meta is better off but it's kinda sad that if ur favourite pokemon was mewtwo x from when you were a kid and you can't use it even though it's in the game (cus all the modes other than ranked is dead). But then again Timi don't care and nerf pollen puff damage and buff machamps defence by 10.
Yes blast is broken but I feel like I rein and tree are even more. Tree can rank, deal damage, cc it’s really an all rounder I would say better then most, I have seen tree deal 100k in damage. Unreason can 1 v3, can heal, and it just a headache those todo are far more broken then ballast at the moment.
Sport I meant to say umbreon.
>We're not in a state where "you have to have this character on your team, or your chances of winning will be almost non-existent", like how it was when each EX mon was released. The meta is in a healthier and more enjoyable state right now Yeah, that was when EX mons were newly released. However, there is not a single EX mon that falls into that category currently. Not even Miraidon even though he will be needing some late game nerfs on his speedster moveset but that's about it. My point is that the EX mon bans from rank doesn't affect/improve the experience really because the release level EX characters are long gone. It's hard to say it's in a more enjoyable state now overall. This influx of Defenders and CC heavy characters make the game much less enjoyable mainly for two certain roles (ARs and speedsters). There are only 2 speedsters and 2 ARs in the top 15 pick rates : Gyarados, Mimikyu, Leafeon and Scizor. If you notice, 3 out of 4 of them have tools to avoid CC to some extent. Mimikyu has SS and play rough, Gyarados has Bounce/waterfall and Dragon current and Leafeon doesn't need to commit too much. If you try to play balanced melees like Tsareena, Azumaril, Zeraora, Aegislash etc it just feels miserable.
> My point is that the EX mon bans from rank doesn't affect/improve the experience really because the release level EX characters are long gone. This is entirely untrue at all, especially if we refer to the picks for Pokemon last season when the EX bans were lifted. I do have to state ahead that the experience is more recognizable the higher you climb, but there IS a reason why EX Pokemon were used often in pre-Master games, even in today's season where they could only be used in non-Master games. Zacian remained a lane bully that can snowball pretty heavily with momentum, and Mewtwo Y was still being used by aggressive DPS players because a well-disciplined Teleport behavior pretty much makes him ungankable on his own. Miraidon's usage meter was difficult to gauge because he was introduced that season and suffered from the "oooh, new Pokemon" syndrome, but his move chaining system pretty much feeds off anything immobile, which is what most Defenders are even to this day. The only thing that fell off hard was Mewtwo X, and that's because he was simply a worse Mewtwo Y that trades safe engages for unga bunga brawls, which he's still pretty decent at. Even when nerfs eventually came their way, it only got rid of their overpowered state. They still saw relatively moderate use especially among more competitive players that played in duos and trios and that could coordinate with their use. There's a reason why we all continue to meme about Mewtwo Unite being a SUPER SAFE objective checker or secure, for example. To say the bans from these EX Pokemon doesn't affect or improve the experience is undermining what their previous and current state are. I can tell you with pure confidence that teams would've LOVED to save a ban pick for Mewtwo Y or Zacian if they remained active in the draft mode and suspect that teams would try to build around these EX Pokemon.
EX license are used more in pre-master games because people know it's the last time they would be able to use them (for a while). Not to mention pre-master games tend to have lesser experienced players so they don't know how to play around certain characters. EX is just a label at this point. There is not a single EX character right now that makes the game feel one-sided. Miraidon needs nerfs on his speedster moveset but his early game is very slow and is quite manageable by the opposing team. Characters like Trevenant, Blastoise, Slowbro, Leafeon, Mew, Gyarados are just as good as any EX character. >I can tell you with pure confidence that teams would've LOVED to save a ban pick for Mewtwo Y or Zacian if they remained active in the draft mode and suspect that teams would try to build around these EX Pokemon. I'm pretty sure you're correct and I'm also positive that banning Mewtwo Y or Zacian would be a waste unless you're against a sweaty trio or it's a case of 5vs5. It's stupid to ban something like Zacian which is picked very less and hardly hard dominates games anymore when you have countless overtuned characters that can easily counter him.
I’m getting the feeling you are arguing in an all or nothing way. It’s either “let EX Pokémon in draft again” or “see these characters are just as bad as EX Pokemon” when it i don’t think those are the only viewpoints. This is a game that is continuously evolving. Sometimes it gets worse and sometimes it gets better. Draft with EX pokemon sucks. Draft with overpowered defenders is annoying, but it’s slightly better than when it had EX pokemon too. But what about after a patch or two and some of those defenders get nerfed? Well, it may become quite reasonable and fun. I think you are arguing for EX Pokémon to rejoin wayyyyyyyyyyy too soon. Draft is incrementally getting better. It’s not perfect, but it’s on its way. Removing EX Pokémon was a good decision and should stay. The next good decision should be to nerf a few of these overpowered defenders.
When “Defender needed!” ping works.
i still prefer this over ex meta
Honestly I feel like this is a result of the increasing availability of draft this season. People look at these numbers and think defenders are all OP right now but think back to your games people. How many (masters) games have all defenders? Even more than 1 defender? I'd venture very few. Due to the nature of draft pick, teams generally always include 1 defender/supporter, and the pool for defenders is very small compared to attackers+allrounders. And people are allergic to supporters in general so that slot tends to go to a defender. If every masters draft game has 1 defender almost guaranteed and 4 others, then of course the pick rate for the limited defender pool will be skewed upwards compared to the rest.
So funny that you mention that. I actually did the stats for usage within roles last week and the stats havent changed much. The TLDR is roughly 50% The Defenders are used, 50% The Speedsters are used, 70% the Attackers are used, 25% The All Rounders are used. 40% the Supports are used. But when you go into their role niches. 80% the ADCs are used. (Literally everyone besides Duraladon) 60% the Medics are used (Comfey and Clef are significantly below the curve) And the only Defenders that dont see use, are "nonfunctional" Greedent, Lapras and Goodra. Ill also point out Double Defender comps arent uncommon. And that even in the context of Umbreons frequent bans. There are 4 Defenders with exceptional usage. Imo people are looking for the wrong things. its more that theres a baseline that characters need to hit to be considered People are making pretty deliberate drafts. It really depends on expectation and copium ratio how the changes impact things The strats, comps, and principles are the same. Its the same meta but the roles the EX played were handed off. And genuinely the EX mons had better results than the ones who have taken the reins, but i feel its worth note that the biggest strength of the EX mons was consistency. Cinderace and Greninja have both spiked to 20% usage and Glaceon to near 30% but M2Y had a more consistent game, and the results to match. Sitting at near 54% WR before his ban. (I say that but Blaze Charge Cinder is performing basically on par with M2Y) Miraidon is a bit more interesting, Mew and Pikachu have both spiked probably for their early game oppression. But Delphox as well has been on the upward rise. Miraidon actually saw more success when played as a "Speedster" his Mage build if memory serves wasnt performing that strongly before his ban. I feel like if people thought everything was gonna change theyre now getting their rude awakening but if people were just expecting to have a handful less pokemon that are strong to deal with regularly they partially got what they wanted. Last Season Miraidon had an inflated banrate and cartwheeled through your backline 30 times. This Season Zoroark has an inflated banrate and dashes through your backline 30 times.
I usually play support but in unite most of them are awful in solo queue.
Where are those defender fans when I'm trying to play Sylveon? I love Umbreon but why do I always gotta fill Umbreon bc no one else will?
goddddddd mood :( me, calling jungle after waiting a few seconds to see if anyone else snagged it first: oh boy, im so excited to jungle as my main, meowscarada! 15 seconds later, after everybody else has called attackers/all-rounder/speedsters: .....alright, defender it is...
Yeah that's especially rough bc everyone wants to be Jungle and carry the game so you need to rush that pick fast, and then just to fill so your teams squishier mons actually get the safety they need to get more than 1 move in is such a thankless job.
yeppppp i joke that im a fill main because i mostly just fill in my teams' missing roles, ahaha. i LOVE jungling, because it almost feels like being the "team captain," particularly in the laning phase when your ganks really sway the flow of battle, but luckily i also really like playing support too; it feels more akin to being the team's manager, doing the behind-the-scenes work so your stars can thrive... though in solo queue it feels more like being a teacher at an understaffed preschool 🙃 regardless, i take my defender role seriously when i fill it. im like the squishies' bouncer/body guard. (me, a slowbro, body blocking icicle spears so my mage can survive/escape): GET DOWN MR. PRESIDENT!!!
>Where are those defender fans when I'm trying to play Sylveon? They are on the enemy team, always.
If they added more defenders we wouldn't have to keep spamming the same four over and over. We'll still do it, but we wouldn't *have* to.
They need to buff the less used defenders.
I NEED SNORLAX TO BE OP
Or nerf the top ones. Tank meta is not a healthy one
I don't understand why tank meta wouldn't be a healthy one? It creates a more slow-paced and strategic game in my opinion. Now Speedsters and All-rounders can't just dive and pick up a 3 elim without much risk. Tank meta also enables more team synergy. Attackers (mages) can actually be mages with high damage output while being very squishy as they are being protected by tanks. Defining these roles, is fundamental for a healthy meta game, otherwise every mon needs a bit of everything (CC, disengage/mobility, damage, healing etc.) which creates balancing issues (already quite rampant when seeing some Buzzwole players being able to heal more than some defenders). So to me this is actually a step in the right direction, now just make the CC a tad bit less and the sustain better and we're getting somewhere imo.
This is all fine when defenders have good defensive stats and low damage and/or mobility to compensate for that, which isn’t the case. If defenders are designed to be front liners who soak damage for their team and probity utility, they shouldn’t have the damage to one shot squishies or the mobility to chase down stragglers they couldn’t one shot. They’re not kitable at that point and are essentially all-rounders with the utility levels of a support, outlive all rounders due to sustain and/or CC resistance, and is arguably the least skill expressive in terms of class/role design.
Exactly. I know Unite is full of people like me that were MOBA noobs but have we really reached a point it needs explaining why blantantly overpowered mons with good damage output, sustain and CC all rolled into one with often minimal skill requirements are unhealthy for the game?
I agree with your points when talking about Blastoise and potentially Trevenant, but if you're getting eliminated by a single Umbreon or Snorlax in the mid to late game, I would argue that's a skill issue on your end. These mons are themselves literal tanks and very difficult to take down, but have little mobility and very low damage output. Not saying that Umbreon wouldn't deserve a nerf, but that's not because of it's damage whatsoever, but because of it's obnoxious CC and sustain. Some defenders could use a nerf, but I am yet to see/experience a match where Snorlax, Umbreon or Lapras did more damage than the attackers/AR/speedsters on the same team except for when it was due to their lack of skill. Most of the skill expression of defenders comes to play in team dynamics, positioning and taking the lead while not distancing themselves too much. It's less mechanical and more tactical in my opinion. But I don't necessarily disagree with your core points, I just feel they might be slightly over exaggerated.
It’s Blastoise and Trevenant. Umbreon is in a different category but is problematic in a way where it has the utility of a support while also having the bulkiness of a defender. This on its own isn’t game warping until you factor in Mean Look, which is almost ALWAYS an ultimate ability in other MOBAs.
> These mons are themselves literal tanks and very difficult to take down, but have little mobility and very low damage output. Tanks and supports could be overpowered without factoring the damage output (which is the basis of this community). It is about the utility they could give instead: - Umbreon: mean look is overpowered without the range nerf. it has low cooldown and no counter at all. his unite also overpowered (they really should limit how much shield he could take, as there is a hero in other Mobile MOBA that almost do the same thing). - Slowbro: a self healing tank that couldnt be countered with cursed item with his passive, which is 'cheating'. unite move that hold opponent 3 secs without being able to be cleansed or cancelled, where the counters are giving shield (blissey, score shield (but if that pokemon is the lowest health around). - lapras (pre nerf): could not be bursted down easily because of the passive and it outheals the damage because of the boosted heal. no counters as no cursed item back then.
You explain it better more than I could.
I probably couldnt articulate it well but because of how the game designed. It is 10 min game. It should be fast pace. > otherwise every mon needs a bit of everything (CC, disengage/mobility, damage, healing etc.) which creates balancing issues Which is exacrly the problem with current meta tank.
I like tank meta more than *any* support meta; and all rounder meta is just boring af to me
No. Not a single defender other than Greedent deserves a buff atm. The lesser picked defenders are picked much less because they are outclassed and overpowered by the broken defenders on the top not because they are bad.
I agree that greedent deserves a buff, I disagree with everything else.
And lapras
Lapras is very balanced tbh. Doesn't deserve any buffs or nerfs. Same as Mamoswine and Goodra. These 3 are in a good spot imo. Greedent and Snorlax deserve buffs, I feel like they are the weakest tanks right now. Snorlax is only viable in competitive play, and fairly useless anywhere else. And Greedent needs an overhaul. The remaining tanks all need to be toned down (Umbreon, Trevenant, Blastoise with bigger nerfs, and Crustle and Slowbro with minor nerfs). If those things all happen, I feel like we'd have a very even playing field in terms of defenders.
"The CC in this game is completely fine. People just don't know how to play around it." The CC :
**Blastoise & Trevanant:** We'll just play around you playing around us then. *-proceeds to initiate operation stun city-*
Ok but I can stun you four times at Ray Ray in a matter of seconds (I want more mime attention we were practically forgotten)
Stop! It's Hammer Time!
> "...People just don't know how to play around it." While this is true for the "Never My Fault" unskilled crowd that can't play around anything but the most obviously telegraphed moves (just recall the Gengar complaints after his broken Hex days but before his range nerfs), it's still undeniable the CC is way outta control and is getting worse as powercreep increases.
I’m shocked slowbro didn’t fall down after ex mons being removed
It still helps you deal with other problematic stuff like Zoroark, Glaceon, or really any skilled jungler.
Because he is overpowered defender too, and always been since 1 1/2 year now. Saying he has high PR because he countered OP pokemon simply false as shown in this statistic.
Wouldn't say op but it's annoying when slowbro has a team that backs him up . I like when his team leaves him to fend for himself in those situations his telekinesis, waves, or ult move aren't enough to ko 2 or more .
I'm tired ppl saying he is not OP just because he couldnt KO 2 or more by himself because that is not why he is OP. He is consistenly being top defenders choice despite reason you said above. He always been top priority pick in any esport. He never had PR below 10% for 1 1/2 year now. And ppl think he is not OP because he couldnt kill anyone. It is the same as saying Goodra is OP because she could sustain and brawl several mon at once while using unite move.
People confuse “the meta” with the actual games they play. The meta isn’t balanced per se, but the characters that are in meta right now are good but not game breaking. The Mewtwo, Miraidon, Zacian metas were characters that could kill you in seconds and lead the whole game in kills and damage. MOBAs go through stages, but a meta that favors supports or tanks is going to be way more fun than one that favors damage dealers.
People always want to complain and will never be satisfied. We're never going to get a 100/x pokemon % flat rate for everybody. This is definitely one of the more refreshing metas in the game despite some pokemon still needing tweaks. Every team that wants to win in ranked will need a defender. Because the defender pool is smaller and pokemon like Snorlax and Greedent are niche, people will gravitate towards the other 5, inflating their winrate. Supporters are less common but if one is chosen it is more likely to be Eldegoss or Umbreon. Attacker and All-rounder pools are deeper so it's more spread out. The balance is very close to fine. The more pressing issue is the game needs to better reinforce how players can get better to ensure more equal games. Or a new map please.
The meta will never be healthy cuz Timi doesn't know how to balance this game there is always overpowered mons running around no matter what
Looks pretty healthy to me. There are 3 times as many all rounders and attackers as defenders and supporters. So if you need one of each in a game, defenders will have a higher pick percentage, since the picks are split between fewer total characters. Seems people are sleeping on Crustle though. Umbreon does feel strong.
I have gone back to 1 tricking Pikachu again only I have now dropped Focus Band since I feel the value it gives me for putting on or surviving pressure in the early game is no longer worth the hit to late game. My god I now see why. Pikachu is just such a safe early pick when ya start ending being the 1st or 2nd player in the lobby. It has a mage and picking move set that handle tanky teams and dive teams respectively as needed. Thus whether the enemy starts loading up on tanks, healers, or speedsters I rarely have to fret. But above all I have realized the deceptive ability for Pikachu to just become a sleeper once you unlock Unite and get the ability to just ego Unite fed opponents. Especially with the EBall buff the damage you can get with the appropriate items and levels can be wild. It’s been a real help with how inconsistent people are at drafting. Now that draft is a frequent thing I feel my other mages like Gardevoir have taken a big hit since if I lock those early the enemy knows just what to do to counter them. And Pikachu can still hold its own against the prevalence of all these defenders.
As a zeraora and blastoise main that’s been away for a while I’m glad to see one of my mains is still meta. How bad or average is zera if anyone is willing to tell me? I was close to getting the max ribbon on him and was curious if it’s worth it
While I still agree with people who say we need more defenders, it’s really hard to want more when so many of them are this good. I could easily make the argument that at least 5 defenders are s tier. Again while I agree we need more defenders overall, there are more top tier defenders to choose from than top tiers of any other role. And it’s been this way for multiple months in a row.
> at least 5 defenders are s tier. there are 5: umbreon, trevenant, blastoise, crustle, slowbro. the rest are not par to those 5 (Mamo + snorlax PR < slowbro PR) > And it’s been this way for multiple months in a row. It needs to be changed.
Tell me why is slowbro not deserving nerf as much as umbreon trevenant, blastoise and umbreon. Tell me without saying "slowbro is good for counter pick the OP Pokemon". It takes a broken pokemon to counter broken pokemon. This stat shows that he needs nerfs as much as other 3. Not to mentioned Slowbro always up there for 1 1/2 year now. Oh well, he might as well get a buff because upcoming purple skin.
No, Slowbro's pick rate only rises in an All-rounder or speedster heavy meta. He's the only defender that can consistently keep OP melee characters in check. He falls off when the meta is more balanced. Oh. Wait 😮. Nvm.
> He falls off when the meta is more balanced. But he never fall off when the meta is more balanced. Remember the period of 'grace' before Mewtwo X release? Where everyone claimed it was the most balanced meta ever that time? Yes, he is still up there. Funny that most picked roles are attackers now aside from defenders. He is still up there.
> But he never fall off when the meta is more balanced. Remember the period of 'grace' before Mewtwo X release? Where everyone claimed it was the most balanced meta ever that time? Yes, he is still up there. I'm pretty sure this is OP's point - he was parodying the common Slowbro excuses like "B-but Slowbro counters the OP mons!" OP says "nvm" after the sarcastic "fall off" comment because the Unite API screenshot shows Slowbro has a high pick rate anyway, even when there aren't blatantly broken damage mons like prime Mewtwos and Zacian running around. Which proves that the "counters OP mons" is a weak and poor faith argument in terms of game balance. The truth is that Slowbro's popular because he's very easy to use (Telekinesis is the only outlier) yet easy to succeed with unless his player is a noob/bonobo and/or his entire team are horrifically useless. On top of that he's memed and well-liked in the Pokemon fandom as a whole, plus his licence is free so pretty much everyone can use him.
I know he is being sarcastic. /u/RE0RGE is one of few redditors here that acknowledge that Slowbro has been at top of ~~food~~ defenders chain. > unless his player is a noob/bonobo and/or his entire team are horrifically useless. This always been the point for not nerfing Slowbro. But which other Pokemon doesnt have this weakness? > on top of that he's memed and well-liked in the Pokemon fandom as a whole So favoritism to the pokemon is a factor.
Sorry mate, thought you were responding seriously because you didn't see the sarcasm but you were just responding to add onto the conversation. Sorry. >This always been the point for not nerfing Slowbro. But which other Pokemon doesnt have this weakness? Exactly. "Don't nerf supports, they only become strong if allies are good!" 😂 A lot of Slowbro's weaknesses apply to multiple other mons too, yet he's still impacted less by them. The Cursed item thing being a classic example - rightfully screws over annoying sustain mons but not him! >So favoritism to the pokemon is a factor. Potentially, yeah. An example being after the new producer got appointed, they're pretty much only adding popular stuff to the roster. No more niche/forgotten mons like Crustle, Greedent, Eldegoss, Dodrio, etc.
Exactly mate... This is the BS discussed around him day in, day out. Hopefully more people get the sarcasm lol.
Imma gonna put this down to there being a relatively small pool of viable defenders to play atm. There are 10 defenders in the game, 5 of them are very viable and in a great place in the current meta. Out of the other 5 you have Greedent who ain't ever gonna be most picked, Goodra who is very mid, Lapras who was nerfed out of the game, Mamo who has never really been meta relevant and Snorlax who is just there. The viable defenders all are in a good spot and aren't too over tuned tbh. If there were more defenders and more in a viable place in the meta then I think you would see those numbers alot lower. On the flip side, there are like 46 mons in the All Rounders/Speedsters/Attackers classes, so people who want to play a damage dealer carry have much more choices to go with. Hey why you don't see such crazy high pick rate numbers. Honestly think the best fix for defenders in general so you don't see the same mons picks all the time isn't soo much to nerf them but make more mons that counter play them and also make some small buffs to the other defenders to make them more appealing.
Exactly
Honestly this is so much better than the- *Looks at Mewtwo Y and other Attackers that break the game* (Shudders) Never again..! (But to be fair the Defenders as a whole finally have their spot on the light after being shafted for almost 2 years since the game came out. It feels very satisfying seeing Defenders and Supports get their moment of fame.)
I'd just love to have them reduce ministuns a bit...also maybe not have point and click cc which lasts <2s....
I mean…it’s better than if EXs were legal at least. Meta’s just so CC heavy that it feels like you have to play something that doesn’t get murdered by cc though.
Hm. No Tsareena on the list...
Umbreon is my fave regardless of meta.
My brother in Arceus He’s been there this whole time The answer to your woes 
I love how defenders are either OP or trash.
This defender meta is crazy lol. Ive been facing at least 2 defenders in one game. (Blastoise + Trev) (Blastoice + Umbreon) etc etc.
Was it explained why EXs are only banned in masters? I don't play very often so I haven't gotten there yet, but last time I played in veteran I matched into a miraidon and mewtwo and that was just such an unfun match
What's wrong with defender spam 😂
We are Scizback
I really dont see much a problem here. Much better than the EX meta.
This meta looks good to me idk
A good Pikachu is an absolute terror
Are they banned for this season only as a trial or is this an implemented thing in the game already?
We’ve had attacker METAS and right now we’re are definitely in a defender META….i just want to see allrounder get a season soon.
Did you forget about Tsareena and Buzzswole?
In the past or now? I don’t think there has ever been a Meta in the game where the 3 top picks were Allrounders.
Look what the'vd done to my little boy (espeon)
How has blastoise not been nerfed already.
Should have been a humor post because the implication is laughable. Key words here “much more”
Hey, in Eldegoss defense... Okay I got nothing, I barely noticed the nerf. Maybe if I actually get to masters.
Not gonna sugar coat it game is actually getting worse and worse ever since Mewtwo x came out. The game is way too stressful to play as a solo player really don't think the game is gonna get any better here on out it's definitely gonna get worse and worse I can just sense it. And if the leaks are true of Ho oh being added then that proves my point even more. I'm gonna drop the game as in when I reach master every season I'm not gonna come back anymore I'm done with this boring bs. Tired of getting one shit from Scyther tired of getting mean looked and I'm tired of leafeons 0 iq one shot attacks. I get it game is made for kids but shit that's why the anime and the mainline are a thing why did you have to add into your side game too? It doesn't even have a story I forgot the aeos island lore cause it was so bland and non existent it sucks cause I really liked this game man but the more I play every season the dumber my teammates get I swear!!!! Also stop adding eeveemons wtf!?! You could be adding haxorus,hydreigon, Ditto,Aggron,Hitmonlee,Gurdurr all of these cool pokemon but no you wanna add crappy looking ones that no one asked for!
Suddenly their overkill bulk is not needed to handle the EX's overkill damage.
no one plays defender or support!!!!!!!!!! uniteapi:
as a tsareena main i see this as an absolute win
The copium was palpable before the ban even happened. I think the funniest thing is that all the really obnoxious characters who were arguably more annoying than the EX mons, are now more played
Honestly, and this is just my take, Blastoise is the most ethical pick here. Idk the last time blast got buffed and what it was, and idk why everyone all of a sudden is picking on blast as a troublesome Mon to play against, but Umbreon and Trevenant (imo) are much more annoying to deal with. Umbreon and Tree have crazy sustain, something Blastoise really doesn’t have compared to them, while also boasting decent damage output. Honestly Tree should’ve been nerfed yesterday but since I love the char I hate to see it nerfed. Blastoise on the other hand operates as a defender generally should w/ Hydro Pump+Surf providing CC and displacement without an insane amount of sustain (like tree) but also with enough damage that you should respect it. The thing is, many players of this game will turn their brain off and WKey then complain when they get rolled if that strat doesn’t work. I’m not saying some defenders aren’t overturned but you gotta play into them smart. Desperately nagging for buffs/nerfs won’t make you a better player.
> Blastoise really doesn’t have compared to them, while also boasting decent damage output Compared to umbreon and trevenant. Blastoise doesn't really need sustain because he is ranged. > also with enough damage that you should respect it. Which he shouldn't, utility tank + damage will break the game. Blastoise has long range, a lot of CC and enough bulk to sustain. It doesn't need the damage too.
I think they have left behind some pokemons in terms of buffs and so, like Cinderace, it doesn't deal enough damage to counter the actual meta. And besides, there are some pokemons with stupid passives like Eevees and it invulnerabilty or damage like Blastoise. I know a game can't be perfect balanced but damn... they have a lot of work to do.
If you have a problem with all the characters, maybe you should stop playing the game ? I mean why always criticizing all aspects of the game ? If you don’t have fun anymore, just play another game
I never said I have a problem with *all* the characters. I hardly criticize anything other than metas that stick for way too long. Not sure where you got all that from lol but quite a strange comment to make.
Umbreon- battle pass on a already strong pokemon a pleasure Blastoise - already great mon that get level 7 evo and no nerf to compensate Trevenant > reserve small nerf to one moveset overbuff the other to compensate >> both moveset are now great Eldegoss > still can a press you to death level 3 Pika / scixor > i spam my button and hope for the best Glaceon/mew being meta/ broken since release
I don’t get the point.