Basically everyone that played during wobbling legalization wants an excuse to still hate the character. The argument was always "sick character but wobbling" and so they shift goalposts. People not from those eras don't care nearly as much.
I hate ICs with and without wobbling, I just hate them a lot less now that wobbling is banned.
They are still pretty degen and not fun to fight IMO. Camping them is still optimal and that's lame.
They still basically play for grab most of the time it's just that handoffs are technical and rng based. Double shield still makes approaching them awful.
Banning wobbling was never about making the character cooler. It was about making them have to play the game like everyone else and to stop them ruining basically every level of play besides the absolute top (where even then they would still get ridiculous upsets frequently).
The ban was never about making them cooler. But as someone that's been around since the early 10s in the scene, the hatred for ICs was not nearly as prolific until wobbling was legalized and popularized. I'm not saying everyone is going to like the character without it, as you clearly demonstrate. But the wobbling era put a notable stain on the character's reputation and if there had never been wobbling I don't think there would be nearly as many ICs haters as there are now.
I think wobbling made them look worse, but they still would have been hated anyway.
Wobbling was initially banned for a reason, the decision to unban it was idiotic and arguably damaged the scene simply by their existence.
However you still had brawl ICs, and now Ult ICs, and they were cancer in brawl too and are still generally disliked in Ult except for funny twitter combos.
The reality is the characters kit is just not well designed, and it causes a lot of specific problems against them in every game they are in.
Would people despise them to the level we see now? Possibly not. But would people actually like them? No I don't think so at all.
How did it damage the scene to ban wobbling? A handful of ICs fell off but by and large they've recovered. People don't feel as bad fighting them anymore and they've proven to be competely viable still.
Brawl and Ult shouldn't really matter here. Falco is beloved in Melee but seen as somewhat clunky in other games. The engines are too different for any generalizing arguments to be valid imo. Need to be specific about what's actually the problem with them in Melee.
>How did it damage the scene to ban wobbling?
You misread my statement. I said unbanning wobbling damaged the scene.
It was banned, then unbanned, then banned again. It was the middle that did damage to the scene. It should have always been banned.
>Brawl and Ult shouldn't really matter here
Character perception extends across games, and my major point was that even in a game where they are similar to Melee, but Nana literally can't grab, people still don't like the character at all.
>Falco is beloved in Melee but seen as somewhat clunky in other games.
That's more so because they changed how Falco works. He's functionally a different character in every game after Melee. His neutral, win conditions, punish style, movement, etc, are all extremely different.
Meanwhile the characters that more so retain their identity tend to be viewed much more favorably. ICs very much do retain that identity between games, they are just dramatically worse in Ultimate.
>The engines are too different for any generalizing arguments to be valid imo. Need to be specific about what's actually the problem with them in Melee.
There is honestly a high amount of crossover when it comes to kits that are or aren't degen and the problems they will or won't cause in the game.
The biggest thing is that Melee/PM have a greater amount of mechanics/options, so things that are big problems in other platform fighters are more likely to have a solution in Melee/PM. But on that same token, if something is a problem in Melee it would likely be an even bigger even more overcentralizing issue in any other game.
For ICs this is especially the case because many of their problems cross over between games like double shield, having true inescapable 0 to deaths, AI puppet jank, etc. In Melee you actually have better counterplay to several of these things than you do in later games, but they are still an issue. The major difference is that the balance of Ult just made them a lot weaker in multiple ways, the issues they cause are still similar.
Not really, most icies are just looking to jab grab or wavedash downsmash fish degenerately so the spirit is still the same.
I don't like the character or how a majority of icies play but I still think wobbling should be unbanned It always felt wrong to pick and chose what glitches the community wants banned, and worse every time anyone beats an icies the question is always if they could wobble would you have won?
Not going to bother with dimishing the playerbase's playstyle because you can literally do this with any character if you want to be reductionist enough and have bias. But the reasons for banning wobbling, whether you agree with them or not, were more than just "choosing glitches the community wants banned." You could demonize any ruleset decision with this reasoning. "We banned the freeze glitch just because the comminity just arbitrarily chooses what it wants banned."
I only caught the ending really, but I noticed while this was being played, axe was on the side stream. Hard to please everyone though, and obviously there’s hindsight about how shit this set was.
They both wouldn’t play the game. I’d recommend finding the for for it and just watching. It was miserable. The right player bing just came off a 3-1 win vs Cody, and during this picture stood up to take a selfie. Every game of the set was like this. When lunar dusk had lead he wouldn’t approach, and when bing had lead he’d top plat camp.
I don't understand the hate. Play to win the fucking game, it makes it far harder for the ICs players if everyone played the MU like this because they don't have answers to top plat/air/general camping if you don't fuck up.
idk, I thought this set was funny as all fuck and respect the fuck out of them for doing this. Play to fucking win in bracket, if Bing played as "normal" falcon does for all we know this shit is a 3-0 9 stock or something fucked up. Bing played to a valid and actual out vs ICs and idk if y'all still hate them may as well play the way to make their lives even more miserable/the character even less viable than it currently is.
Winning earns respect. That is how shit works in most competitive spaces. The unclean masses may not like how some people win but if it keeps working it catches on and spreads if it's a valid tactic.
Also call a spade a spade why the fuck is it different when a falcon camps ICs Than When Peach Puff or Fox do it LMAO. The best way to beat touch of death chars is not let them touch you so playing to avoid that is important.
In a competitive space (I don't care about unranked on slipping or friendlies etc) playing to win however "boring" is respectable lmao.
Also I say this as an ICs who respects the people who camp my ass properly and beat me more than the ones who run in like a brainlet due to public pressure and I beat them for it lmao. Play matchups correctly means you get the wins you want in the long term
I mean it's not always about money sometimes it's for competitions sake. Playing to win is always better than being a crowd pleaser because the crowd pleasure route ends with you doing stupid shit and losing games you shouldn't.
But idk, as an ICs the people who camp my ass as they beat me get more respect than the person doing fancy shit only to lost and spend the rest of the night bitching because they didn't know how to do anything other than run forward
i learnt cody lost to someone named bing who played DK and i became a fan, then i saw them olay and that theyre apparently (edit: alledgedly and apparently incorretly) transphobic and instantly became a hater 💀
super funny set tho 😭
Bing was banned from Melee Online for using a slur, but allegedly he didn't know it was a slur and as such gracefully accepted the length of his ban to make up for it. Still bad, but imo it's a bit more complicated than him being a transphobe
ty for letting me know! i put apparently cause i was lowkey expecting smth like this, yk how it be on the internet sometimes
btw i do also wanna clarify that im using "hater" very loosely, idc that much and love to see upsets like bing vs cody, i just think the expectations vs reality angle is very funny
nw, I think it's fine to be cautious either way. I typically have very little sympathy for transphobes, but I also think it's important that people who seem like they're trying to learn aren't killed by the court of public opinion first, assuming good faith ofc.
completely agree, esp with people trying to learn.
perhaps ironically i think i remember a moment on codys stream of him expressing tbe same opinion whilst talking to a potentially transphobic chatter. chat got mad, but cody realised the guy was just a bit ignorant
blud tried to recreate michael vs bananas
How you going to beat Cody then play like this
The two are related. Also it’s based against the shit climbers. If you don’t like it legalize wobbling
Bro what. Slug got top 10 ranked post wobble ban. When Icies win, people say handoffs = wobble. When icies lose, people say to legalize wobbling
Basically everyone that played during wobbling legalization wants an excuse to still hate the character. The argument was always "sick character but wobbling" and so they shift goalposts. People not from those eras don't care nearly as much.
I hate ICs with and without wobbling, I just hate them a lot less now that wobbling is banned. They are still pretty degen and not fun to fight IMO. Camping them is still optimal and that's lame. They still basically play for grab most of the time it's just that handoffs are technical and rng based. Double shield still makes approaching them awful. Banning wobbling was never about making the character cooler. It was about making them have to play the game like everyone else and to stop them ruining basically every level of play besides the absolute top (where even then they would still get ridiculous upsets frequently).
The ban was never about making them cooler. But as someone that's been around since the early 10s in the scene, the hatred for ICs was not nearly as prolific until wobbling was legalized and popularized. I'm not saying everyone is going to like the character without it, as you clearly demonstrate. But the wobbling era put a notable stain on the character's reputation and if there had never been wobbling I don't think there would be nearly as many ICs haters as there are now.
I think wobbling made them look worse, but they still would have been hated anyway. Wobbling was initially banned for a reason, the decision to unban it was idiotic and arguably damaged the scene simply by their existence. However you still had brawl ICs, and now Ult ICs, and they were cancer in brawl too and are still generally disliked in Ult except for funny twitter combos. The reality is the characters kit is just not well designed, and it causes a lot of specific problems against them in every game they are in. Would people despise them to the level we see now? Possibly not. But would people actually like them? No I don't think so at all.
How did it damage the scene to ban wobbling? A handful of ICs fell off but by and large they've recovered. People don't feel as bad fighting them anymore and they've proven to be competely viable still. Brawl and Ult shouldn't really matter here. Falco is beloved in Melee but seen as somewhat clunky in other games. The engines are too different for any generalizing arguments to be valid imo. Need to be specific about what's actually the problem with them in Melee.
>How did it damage the scene to ban wobbling? You misread my statement. I said unbanning wobbling damaged the scene. It was banned, then unbanned, then banned again. It was the middle that did damage to the scene. It should have always been banned. >Brawl and Ult shouldn't really matter here Character perception extends across games, and my major point was that even in a game where they are similar to Melee, but Nana literally can't grab, people still don't like the character at all. >Falco is beloved in Melee but seen as somewhat clunky in other games. That's more so because they changed how Falco works. He's functionally a different character in every game after Melee. His neutral, win conditions, punish style, movement, etc, are all extremely different. Meanwhile the characters that more so retain their identity tend to be viewed much more favorably. ICs very much do retain that identity between games, they are just dramatically worse in Ultimate. >The engines are too different for any generalizing arguments to be valid imo. Need to be specific about what's actually the problem with them in Melee. There is honestly a high amount of crossover when it comes to kits that are or aren't degen and the problems they will or won't cause in the game. The biggest thing is that Melee/PM have a greater amount of mechanics/options, so things that are big problems in other platform fighters are more likely to have a solution in Melee/PM. But on that same token, if something is a problem in Melee it would likely be an even bigger even more overcentralizing issue in any other game. For ICs this is especially the case because many of their problems cross over between games like double shield, having true inescapable 0 to deaths, AI puppet jank, etc. In Melee you actually have better counterplay to several of these things than you do in later games, but they are still an issue. The major difference is that the balance of Ult just made them a lot weaker in multiple ways, the issues they cause are still similar.
Fr fr i really don’t get the hate, Icies go from lamest character in the game with wobbling to most hype character in the game without it
Not really, most icies are just looking to jab grab or wavedash downsmash fish degenerately so the spirit is still the same. I don't like the character or how a majority of icies play but I still think wobbling should be unbanned It always felt wrong to pick and chose what glitches the community wants banned, and worse every time anyone beats an icies the question is always if they could wobble would you have won?
Not going to bother with dimishing the playerbase's playstyle because you can literally do this with any character if you want to be reductionist enough and have bias. But the reasons for banning wobbling, whether you agree with them or not, were more than just "choosing glitches the community wants banned." You could demonize any ruleset decision with this reasoning. "We banned the freeze glitch just because the comminity just arbitrarily chooses what it wants banned."
all that’s changed is now they need two grabs to get a stock instead of one. and that’s fine.
How would legalizing wobbling do anything but just encourage MORE people to camp so they dont get grabbed
Campers gonna camp, atleast wobbling gave the climbers a chance
on the other hand if you need an infinite to be viable maybe you should just accept that the character is a low tier
do you not realize who won this set
Who cares bro it was a huge mismatch seeding wise and the under seeded player was also using a secondary. The fact they won a game is huge.
I hated every moment of this
That dude *looks* like he plays ICs
As the famous crush saying goes, ICs mains all look like they collect bugs and it's still true to this day
Bananas was the first person I ever faced in a bracket at a local lmao. Definitely looked like he collected bugs. Chill dude
I miss him.
Please come back Crush
And then there is slug
SluG looks like he collects classic VW Beetles, which is close enough
Why did they choose to give this ammo to the ult crowd?
Man if ult players think melee is slower, that's on them
I thought it was a funny set, definitely should not have been on the main stream though.
Main stream was a big letdown. Did they show a single top 10 player?
I wish they'd give priority to people flying out of continent.
I only caught the ending really, but I noticed while this was being played, axe was on the side stream. Hard to please everyone though, and obviously there’s hindsight about how shit this set was.
Does anyone in the melee community even care about what the ult community thinks?
Why would Blooky do this :(
bing the goat upstate 🔛🔝
This is not how you play the falcon ic matchup. Can't believe this happened
Can someone tell me the context here? Both players refused to engage?
They both wouldn’t play the game. I’d recommend finding the for for it and just watching. It was miserable. The right player bing just came off a 3-1 win vs Cody, and during this picture stood up to take a selfie. Every game of the set was like this. When lunar dusk had lead he wouldn’t approach, and when bing had lead he’d top plat camp.
Left?
Swear to god I know my left and right, no idea how I fucked that up ngl
Bing just has the Bastard Energy about him
Nah bro he’s actually a really chill dude
Love seeing people bm on icies tbh
Scrubs in the comments losing stage control meanwhile we both played perfect Melee STAY MAD
ok bug collector
it was funny when crush said it, it's cringe when just some dude says it though
real
Using phones like this shouldn't be allowed. You are there to COMPETE.
how did this guy beat Cody w DK?
I don't understand the hate. Play to win the fucking game, it makes it far harder for the ICs players if everyone played the MU like this because they don't have answers to top plat/air/general camping if you don't fuck up. idk, I thought this set was funny as all fuck and respect the fuck out of them for doing this. Play to fucking win in bracket, if Bing played as "normal" falcon does for all we know this shit is a 3-0 9 stock or something fucked up. Bing played to a valid and actual out vs ICs and idk if y'all still hate them may as well play the way to make their lives even more miserable/the character even less viable than it currently is.
Win what? $20 dollars? Respect? This isn’t how you gain respect by wasting everyone’s time.
Winning earns respect. That is how shit works in most competitive spaces. The unclean masses may not like how some people win but if it keeps working it catches on and spreads if it's a valid tactic. Also call a spade a spade why the fuck is it different when a falcon camps ICs Than When Peach Puff or Fox do it LMAO. The best way to beat touch of death chars is not let them touch you so playing to avoid that is important. In a competitive space (I don't care about unranked on slipping or friendlies etc) playing to win however "boring" is respectable lmao. Also I say this as an ICs who respects the people who camp my ass properly and beat me more than the ones who run in like a brainlet due to public pressure and I beat them for it lmao. Play matchups correctly means you get the wins you want in the long term
Most people don't play this game to win a measly amount of money, they play because the game is FUN. So I guess this just baffles most people
I mean it's not always about money sometimes it's for competitions sake. Playing to win is always better than being a crowd pleaser because the crowd pleasure route ends with you doing stupid shit and losing games you shouldn't. But idk, as an ICs the people who camp my ass as they beat me get more respect than the person doing fancy shit only to lost and spend the rest of the night bitching because they didn't know how to do anything other than run forward
i learnt cody lost to someone named bing who played DK and i became a fan, then i saw them olay and that theyre apparently (edit: alledgedly and apparently incorretly) transphobic and instantly became a hater 💀 super funny set tho 😭
so hes a closet ganon main
Bing was banned from Melee Online for using a slur, but allegedly he didn't know it was a slur and as such gracefully accepted the length of his ban to make up for it. Still bad, but imo it's a bit more complicated than him being a transphobe
What was the slur?
very likely to be the same word that mechanics use to shorten the word transmission. I'm not gonna risk automod on my fav sub tho.
ty for letting me know! i put apparently cause i was lowkey expecting smth like this, yk how it be on the internet sometimes btw i do also wanna clarify that im using "hater" very loosely, idc that much and love to see upsets like bing vs cody, i just think the expectations vs reality angle is very funny
nw, I think it's fine to be cautious either way. I typically have very little sympathy for transphobes, but I also think it's important that people who seem like they're trying to learn aren't killed by the court of public opinion first, assuming good faith ofc.
completely agree, esp with people trying to learn. perhaps ironically i think i remember a moment on codys stream of him expressing tbe same opinion whilst talking to a potentially transphobic chatter. chat got mad, but cody realised the guy was just a bit ignorant