The translations are accurate, it’s common to end your bloodline if you did something like that. He almost incited a war on the spot by touching the mat wit his feet and reaching for his weapon. Toranaga couldn’t let this slide because Ishido had to be satisfied too.
The dude who offended both Ishido and Toranage asked for permission to kill himself and end his bloodline. He was given that permission because it satisfied Ishido so both groups didn’t go to war right there and then.
And it was to show that Toranaga was still following the rules and made it appear as if he didn’t have any ulterior motives.
I think they were questioning his allegiance to the council at the time so the death worked out in Toranaga’s favor.
The whole thing is to demonstrate to the audience how absolute loyalty was in this culture’s time period and how serious seppuku and a samurai’s word is. And also how expendable human lives are to this tradition. There’s nothing that explains it more in Japanese because they are actually showing you through actions.
Tadayoshi made his pledge in front of the entire council. Toranaga denying it would not only make himself look weak, but also make Tadayoshi’s resolution and honor look weak to go back on his word. Tadayoshi knew exactly what he was doing and how grave the consequences would be where his own life would not suffice.
Then the kid can come back for revenge years later. It’s a pretty standard story line (Godfather 2, 91 Days, Lucy Liu in the first Kill Bill).
Ishido is a pretty big movie buff, so yeah the kid had to die.
Exactly. Like he’s gonna let kid and Fuji go off to a monastery on Hokkaido, only for her to tell the kid on her death bed in 20 yrs, “the truth about his father, and where he comes from.” That would have made one helluva sequel though.
I’m not sure you understand the severity of the situation that Fuji’s husband put Toranaga in. Toranaga thinks it was wasteful and in the book he actually admires the guy for doing what he thought was right and then humbling himself to the point of crawling on all fours like a dog. The issue was appeasing Ishido. Fuji’s husband’s actions literally could’ve ended in Toranaga and all the men in that room being killed. Just that. Yes. Ishido was poking, but to draw a sword on such a high ranking player was a no no and because Toranaga was responsible for his men and their conduct while in Osaka castle which was completely under Ishido’s control, it could’ve easily been the end right there. I believe that was part of the hope on Ishido’s part if I recall. That someone would fuck up hard enough for him to gain enough leverage to just order Toranaga to kill himself.
So yes, while I see what you’re saying and yes while from our POV it seems harsh, it was a harsh time. The real Tokugawa had his own son commit seppuku and executed his own wife. This is just the reality of what it was and the ruthless things you have to do when you’re trying to assume highest authority.
It shouldn’t be overlooked that most Japanese feudal lords by our modern democratic definitions would be absolutely psychopathic murdering assholes, as were, in fact most feudal lords in Europe.
Not sure why you're being downvoted for asking a question, wow! I guess fuck anyone who doesn't understand the intricacies of foreign cultures huh? Hey adk anything you want don't mind the haters
You need to understand that this story is set in a country far away from presumably yours, with values that were heightened and very different from the modern Japanese version.
The value and meaning of death was significantly different. Even as a modern Japanese individual, the culture and standards back then were absurd. However I fully understand the reasoning and logic behind it, as aspects of what you see in Shogun are still present in our society today. Just watered down. A lot.
So to answer your question, just know that how you perceive death is significantly different from how these characters in Shogun do. And I think you’ll understand as you continue to watch more episodes.
-You never say anything directly. Even in modern Japan, much of the communication is reading between the lines. You never directly address anything with anyone.
I’ve confused many of my Western partners for expecting them to be able to understand my underlining messages without explicitly outlining them.
-collective mentality.
-the concept of “beauty is ephemeral”, which leads to Mariko’s poems of the flowers
-your superior is absolute and you shouldnt question them, no matter how absurd their ideas are. Once you are committed to, you are committed.
There are so many more parallels to modern day Japan and Shogun’s world, but I think I’ll stop here.
One of the things that confused me the most in moving to Japan and learning Japanese was noticing everyone ending their sentences with “but…” I’m like, but what?? What’s after the “but”?? 😅
Something else to think about, this isn’t just some random interaction. This is literally the interaction between two of the most powerful men in Japan, each with more soldiers under their respective commands than the king of Spain at the time. It would be like interrupting the meeting between the ussr and USA at the height of the Cold War. Consequences equally so.
>It would be like interrupting the meeting between the ussr and USA at the height of the Cold War.
More like drawing a gun than just interrupting. But yeah, still a thing that would be meet with a really high punishment.
killing bloodlines was very common back in asia.
In china for grave sins the avg punishment was the wipe out of 3 gens.
Bigger sins and 3rd cousins start dropping.
In fact one time a brother of the taiko came to him but he got rejected and the taiko ordered all his family to get their heads off.
A taiko is a retired konpaku (Regent). As Hideyoshi was not born from the damyo class, he could never be Shogun. He ruled as Konlaku and then "retire", taking the title of taiko so his infant son would get some legitimacy as the ruler. It was a common technique.
Remember how people though the taiko was sterile and his son wasnt his?
one time people wrote a graffiti in a door about that and the taiko ordered all witnesses to be offed, guards etc.
Put it this way: the guy who Toranaga is based on, Tokugawa Ieyasu, had to have his own wife killed because she was accused (likely falsely) of plotting against the Taiko. He then commanded his son, his oldest son, to commit seppuku because of the risk that his son would want to avenge his mother’s death, regardless of whether he was actually plotting against his father or the taiko or not. Do you think such a person would hesitate to put to death a baby unrelated to him who could also grow up to avenge his father?
So, Toranaga is at the council of regents. He is in the heart of Ishido's fortress. The only thing that safeguard his return unharmed is the hostage, Lady Ochiba, currently "visiting" her family in Edo, Toranaga's fief.
Ishido just insulted Toranaga openly, hoping he can provoke Toranaga's close guard to attack. If they do and blood is drawn, the other regents can legitimately massacre the whole Toranaga delegation and ignore the retaliation on the hostage, the heir's mother, Ochiba.
At the insult, one of Toranaga's close guard samurai - Fujiko's husband - raises to his feet and draws his sword, ready to strike Ishido at the insult against his Lord... But at the last second he gets a hold of himself and stops.
Toranaga is furious. If he had struck Ishido, Toranaga and all of his lineage would have been massacred. "How dare you listen to conversation that doesn't concern you? How dare you suggest Ishido was insulting me, his honored guest?"
Hence he punishes the samurai with an order to kill his newborn son and then commit seppuku. The 2 white boxes given to Fuji later contains her baby and husband ashes.
I usually don't pay a lot of attention when first starting a new series, but I must have completely missed the fact that the samurai who had to kill himself in that scene was Fuji's husband. Wow, haha.
1) spoilers. Only watched the first episode.
2) that's not exactly what happened. Fujikos husband volunteered to commit seppuku and kill his line. So Toranaga could have said, just you. Not the baby. He spares Fuji. So he could have just said "your death is enough. Let your child regain your families honor " or something like that.
He has no choice because the samurai’s actions could have basically killed everyone on Torunaga’s side. This was a punishment Ishido had to accept not Torunaga.
Torunaga is basically in a, “Will this work for you, Ishido, to keep the peace?” situation. So Torunaga accepting is something that’s done to please Ishido, who had every right to arrest and execute everyone after that. If Torunaga goes, “well not the baby” Ishido can claim his grievance hasn’t fully been addressed or that Torunaga is underplaying the magnitude of disrespect by refusing what the samurai initially offered.
The Japanese people value their pride and honor. It would rob him of his honor if he simply stops/prevents it. If you have no honor then why live for nothing? A life full of shame is just as equal as a literal suicide for them.
In the very first episode, Yabushige was ready to kill himself rather than just drown after rescuing Rodrigues. If we use your argument, he was supposedly going to die either way but it actually shows something deeper which is pride and honor (he gets to choose how he lives and dies). This topic will be discussed further in the episodes as well.
This will also explore Mariko's pride and honor in future episodes and how it becomes a burden for Japanese people.
Edit: he was rescuing Rodrigues not Blackthorne
Not really the same. Fujis husband's honor is irrelevant to the lord. Yabushies honor is important to him. But the point has been explained as to why Toranaga did what he did. So my question was answered.
I think the issue is one of honour. IIRC, he says he will kill his son in front of a room full of people and to honour his word he has to follow through. I could be wrong but that’s how I interpreted it.
If it were only up to Toranaga, I believe he would spare the child. But that samurai swore he would kill himself and his line in front of the entire council. If Toranaga spared the child, then the Regents could claim it wasn’t enough reparation for threatening the life of a Regent in their chambers. If the Samurai didn’t offer the life of the child, maybe no one would bring it up and the baby would be fine. But clearly, he is rash and doesn’t think his actions through.
Also, he never offered the life of Fuji, and they made sure she was spared. Also, in super pragmatic sense, Fuji’s character becomes very important and those events make her arc possible.
Yeah, I guess you’re right actually; he tells loads of people they can’t kill themselves. Why not the baby? Maybe it would be seen as a massive sign of disrespect to Ishido to back out after making the promise?
Never thought of Inigo Montoya reasoning but you’re on the spot.
As long as a male heir is alive, there may be vassals who’d support him when he’s older and take a revenge on Ishido. Also the family line doesn’t end as long as a male child survives.
"Seppuku is an honour of which you are not worthy. You shall be crucified like a common criminal."
It's bloody brutal in the book how non-chalent they are about different types of death.
It's the result of James Clavell being tortured by IJA soldiers and experiencing their warped version of Bushido moreso than having historical roots. I will have to look for the exact link, but there is an AskHistorians thread that covers the topic.
Essentially what it said was if that were to actually happen, it would create way more tension and probably cause that guy's family and supporters to want to avenge him. If the offended party really wanted to diffuse the situation they would reject the offer for him to commit seppuku rather than allow it.
Yeah it is the idealised version of bushido coden that its practitioners would all pretend is the norm. A bit like asking how much influencers earn, hint they all earn less than they want to appear. Reality is there is wiggle room but that doesn't suit such shows when already trying to portray a different culture then you introduce more nuance.
From u / parallelpain
Judging by the clip I saw on youtube, no it wouldn't be.
1. The man's wakizashi (I think) did not even leave his scabbard. Seppuku seems way too harsh a punishment. Besides the aftermath of battle and war, at the time seppuku seem to have been the punishment for treason, and this is far from treason. While it's comparing to fiction as well, if this was NHK's Taiga Drama the man would likely be ordered to stand down, maybe leave the inner halls until the meeting ends, but otherwise go unpunished.
2. I have no idea why the man requested seppuku when no one seem to have bothered citing which law he broke, and
3. Not only did he request his own death, but also that of his entire line. His death would have absolved any legal problems and there's no need for anyone else to die.
4. Perhaps this is something to do with the characters' relationships in the show that is explained in more detail, but if the man was of high enough rank to be sitting right at the entrance, that means he was likely (one of) the highest ranking of Toranaga's guards present, meaning he was a man of high standing and ability and lots of connections. Why Toranaga would let him die like that I do not understand. At that point in time warriors' loyalties were clearly bought, and having the man die like that would result in accusations of cowardice and Toranaga not willing to protect his subordinate who was only standing up for him, likely leading to Toranaga's men turning sides, or at least cracks in loyalty that could be exploited. If anything, Toranaga should be trying to excuse his behaviour to save him, not least because he was likely related to Toranaga or one of Toranaga's ranking vassals.
5. Both Toranaga and the opposing lords seemed to act as if "accepting" the seppuku was diffusing the situation. A seppuku here would be pushing the sides closer to war.
Historically after Hideyoshi's death and before Sekigahara, the situation was tense enough that there were rumors of assassination plots and actual armed standoffs and assaults (or protests at least), but no one was ordered to commit seppuku for these. For instance, in 1599 for plotting to assassinate Tokugawa Ieyasu (lord Toranaga's historical counterpart) the conspirators were ordered into exile, house arrest, or to send Ieyasu hostages to ensure their loyalty. Despite the whole situation it seems no one died (violently) until the outbreak of war.
I think there’s a comment in the show about Ishido causing the bloodline death. Toranaga had to allow what Fuji’s husband swore to to take place (ending bloodline) or else Ishido would find it a slight against him or something
It is 1600 Japan. Very different beliefs.
I’m gonna assume you’re from a western country.
The problem is that you’re looking at the scene with western 21st century eyes. Sure nowadays it would be extremely excessive to do that, but that scene is there to show you that that’s how it worked in Japan at that time.
What Fuji’s husband did was extremely serious and could very well be used as pretext for Ishido to order everyone there killed, so Toranaga didn’t have the luxury of being like “ok just this should be enough”, Ishido likely wouldn’t be satisfied if the son was left alive (even more so because he could seek revenge in the future).
Here is an interesting scene from the book from Ishido’s perspective. Heavy spoilers.
>! “Ishido was prepared for the death blow and made no move to defend himself. This was what he had planned for, hoped for, and his men had been ordered not to interfere until he was dead. If he, Ishido, were killed here, now, by a Toranaga samurai, the whole Osaka garrison could fall on Toranaga legitimately and slay him, irrespective of the hostage…”!<
Here are Toranaga’s feelings in the incident.
>! “He understood, too, why Ishido had been so insulting and inflammatory. I will repay you with an enormity of interest, Ishido, he promised silently.” !<
Because he also said he would end his bloodline.
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💀
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And the lord could have said, no. You don't have to go that far. That's why I'm wondering if something in native tongue explains it better.
The translations are accurate, it’s common to end your bloodline if you did something like that. He almost incited a war on the spot by touching the mat wit his feet and reaching for his weapon. Toranaga couldn’t let this slide because Ishido had to be satisfied too. The dude who offended both Ishido and Toranage asked for permission to kill himself and end his bloodline. He was given that permission because it satisfied Ishido so both groups didn’t go to war right there and then.
Yea it was more of an act to appease Ishido.
And it was to show that Toranaga was still following the rules and made it appear as if he didn’t have any ulterior motives. I think they were questioning his allegiance to the council at the time so the death worked out in Toranaga’s favor.
The whole thing is to demonstrate to the audience how absolute loyalty was in this culture’s time period and how serious seppuku and a samurai’s word is. And also how expendable human lives are to this tradition. There’s nothing that explains it more in Japanese because they are actually showing you through actions. Tadayoshi made his pledge in front of the entire council. Toranaga denying it would not only make himself look weak, but also make Tadayoshi’s resolution and honor look weak to go back on his word. Tadayoshi knew exactly what he was doing and how grave the consequences would be where his own life would not suffice.
That's fair point. Thank you
Then the kid can come back for revenge years later. It’s a pretty standard story line (Godfather 2, 91 Days, Lucy Liu in the first Kill Bill). Ishido is a pretty big movie buff, so yeah the kid had to die.
He’s like “I ain’t falling for that trope!”
Exactly. Like he’s gonna let kid and Fuji go off to a monastery on Hokkaido, only for her to tell the kid on her death bed in 20 yrs, “the truth about his father, and where he comes from.” That would have made one helluva sequel though.
Well.. you still have another 9 episodes to get to know Toranaga..
I’m not sure you understand the severity of the situation that Fuji’s husband put Toranaga in. Toranaga thinks it was wasteful and in the book he actually admires the guy for doing what he thought was right and then humbling himself to the point of crawling on all fours like a dog. The issue was appeasing Ishido. Fuji’s husband’s actions literally could’ve ended in Toranaga and all the men in that room being killed. Just that. Yes. Ishido was poking, but to draw a sword on such a high ranking player was a no no and because Toranaga was responsible for his men and their conduct while in Osaka castle which was completely under Ishido’s control, it could’ve easily been the end right there. I believe that was part of the hope on Ishido’s part if I recall. That someone would fuck up hard enough for him to gain enough leverage to just order Toranaga to kill himself. So yes, while I see what you’re saying and yes while from our POV it seems harsh, it was a harsh time. The real Tokugawa had his own son commit seppuku and executed his own wife. This is just the reality of what it was and the ruthless things you have to do when you’re trying to assume highest authority.
It shouldn’t be overlooked that most Japanese feudal lords by our modern democratic definitions would be absolutely psychopathic murdering assholes, as were, in fact most feudal lords in Europe.
Feudalism seemed to have necessarily bred a harsh type of ruler. Quite glad I don’t live in those times.
Things like this are why America, Ireland & the French Revolution.
Also, the entire history of Eastern Europe.
Not sure why you're being downvoted for asking a question, wow! I guess fuck anyone who doesn't understand the intricacies of foreign cultures huh? Hey adk anything you want don't mind the haters
I never do lol.
Spoiler: Toranaga is not a good person.
You need to understand that this story is set in a country far away from presumably yours, with values that were heightened and very different from the modern Japanese version. The value and meaning of death was significantly different. Even as a modern Japanese individual, the culture and standards back then were absurd. However I fully understand the reasoning and logic behind it, as aspects of what you see in Shogun are still present in our society today. Just watered down. A lot. So to answer your question, just know that how you perceive death is significantly different from how these characters in Shogun do. And I think you’ll understand as you continue to watch more episodes.
What are the historical traditions that are still there today?
-You never say anything directly. Even in modern Japan, much of the communication is reading between the lines. You never directly address anything with anyone. I’ve confused many of my Western partners for expecting them to be able to understand my underlining messages without explicitly outlining them. -collective mentality. -the concept of “beauty is ephemeral”, which leads to Mariko’s poems of the flowers -your superior is absolute and you shouldnt question them, no matter how absurd their ideas are. Once you are committed to, you are committed. There are so many more parallels to modern day Japan and Shogun’s world, but I think I’ll stop here.
That first one is true in Korean and Colombian cultures also.
I’ve talked to plenty of Colombian women they seem quite direct lol
Korean people are very direct and it is even encouraged.
One of the things that confused me the most in moving to Japan and learning Japanese was noticing everyone ending their sentences with “but…” I’m like, but what?? What’s after the “but”?? 😅
This right here.
Something else to think about, this isn’t just some random interaction. This is literally the interaction between two of the most powerful men in Japan, each with more soldiers under their respective commands than the king of Spain at the time. It would be like interrupting the meeting between the ussr and USA at the height of the Cold War. Consequences equally so.
>It would be like interrupting the meeting between the ussr and USA at the height of the Cold War. More like drawing a gun than just interrupting. But yeah, still a thing that would be meet with a really high punishment.
It's set in feudal Japan. They took every word at face value. You're in for a trip.
Maybe toranaga could have stopped it if the outburst didn’t occur in Osaka in front of all council regents 🤷♀️
killing bloodlines was very common back in asia. In china for grave sins the avg punishment was the wipe out of 3 gens. Bigger sins and 3rd cousins start dropping. In fact one time a brother of the taiko came to him but he got rejected and the taiko ordered all his family to get their heads off.
Is Taiko just another word for Shogun or different?
Different. The taiko couldn’t be shogun because he wasn’t from a noble family. So he chose taiko instead, a different title but also prestigious
A taiko is a retired konpaku (Regent). As Hideyoshi was not born from the damyo class, he could never be Shogun. He ruled as Konlaku and then "retire", taking the title of taiko so his infant son would get some legitimacy as the ruler. It was a common technique.
I see your Asia and raise you one Soviet Russia
Geesh.
Remember how people though the taiko was sterile and his son wasnt his? one time people wrote a graffiti in a door about that and the taiko ordered all witnesses to be offed, guards etc.
Bruh
Came to him for what?
He expected for him to accept him as family.
And his entire family was killed because he asked to be accepted as family?
yeah, imagine the insolence. Thats why ishido said that the taiko wasnt that good.
I was confused at this as well, but I guess that's ancient Japan for you lol
Put it this way: the guy who Toranaga is based on, Tokugawa Ieyasu, had to have his own wife killed because she was accused (likely falsely) of plotting against the Taiko. He then commanded his son, his oldest son, to commit seppuku because of the risk that his son would want to avenge his mother’s death, regardless of whether he was actually plotting against his father or the taiko or not. Do you think such a person would hesitate to put to death a baby unrelated to him who could also grow up to avenge his father?
So, Toranaga is at the council of regents. He is in the heart of Ishido's fortress. The only thing that safeguard his return unharmed is the hostage, Lady Ochiba, currently "visiting" her family in Edo, Toranaga's fief. Ishido just insulted Toranaga openly, hoping he can provoke Toranaga's close guard to attack. If they do and blood is drawn, the other regents can legitimately massacre the whole Toranaga delegation and ignore the retaliation on the hostage, the heir's mother, Ochiba. At the insult, one of Toranaga's close guard samurai - Fujiko's husband - raises to his feet and draws his sword, ready to strike Ishido at the insult against his Lord... But at the last second he gets a hold of himself and stops. Toranaga is furious. If he had struck Ishido, Toranaga and all of his lineage would have been massacred. "How dare you listen to conversation that doesn't concern you? How dare you suggest Ishido was insulting me, his honored guest?" Hence he punishes the samurai with an order to kill his newborn son and then commit seppuku. The 2 white boxes given to Fuji later contains her baby and husband ashes.
I usually don't pay a lot of attention when first starting a new series, but I must have completely missed the fact that the samurai who had to kill himself in that scene was Fuji's husband. Wow, haha.
1) spoilers. Only watched the first episode. 2) that's not exactly what happened. Fujikos husband volunteered to commit seppuku and kill his line. So Toranaga could have said, just you. Not the baby. He spares Fuji. So he could have just said "your death is enough. Let your child regain your families honor " or something like that.
Her husband vowed to end his bloodline due to his perceived disrespect. Therefore, he had to kill the baby as well.
Yea. I get that. We've been over that. Toranaga could have ordered the baby not been killed.
You're overthinking it
Not really. He says he regrets this outcome and thinks the death is pointless, but he has the power to prevent it.
Keep watching.... you'll come to understand Toranaga better
He has no choice because the samurai’s actions could have basically killed everyone on Torunaga’s side. This was a punishment Ishido had to accept not Torunaga. Torunaga is basically in a, “Will this work for you, Ishido, to keep the peace?” situation. So Torunaga accepting is something that’s done to please Ishido, who had every right to arrest and execute everyone after that. If Torunaga goes, “well not the baby” Ishido can claim his grievance hasn’t fully been addressed or that Torunaga is underplaying the magnitude of disrespect by refusing what the samurai initially offered.
Gotcha. That makes sense
I feel that you are fishing for an answer that does not exist. Keep watching the show, you'll get to know Toranaga better.
No. People have explained it. Read some of the other comments. A lot of it has to do with not understanding the culture as well.
It seems you have an answer as to why you are confused and the answer to your original question, friend.
Umm yea? Thats how asking a question works.
The Japanese people value their pride and honor. It would rob him of his honor if he simply stops/prevents it. If you have no honor then why live for nothing? A life full of shame is just as equal as a literal suicide for them.
I mean he was gonna not be living, so his honor wasn't really important anymore lol.
In the very first episode, Yabushige was ready to kill himself rather than just drown after rescuing Rodrigues. If we use your argument, he was supposedly going to die either way but it actually shows something deeper which is pride and honor (he gets to choose how he lives and dies). This topic will be discussed further in the episodes as well. This will also explore Mariko's pride and honor in future episodes and how it becomes a burden for Japanese people. Edit: he was rescuing Rodrigues not Blackthorne
Not really the same. Fujis husband's honor is irrelevant to the lord. Yabushies honor is important to him. But the point has been explained as to why Toranaga did what he did. So my question was answered.
I think the issue is one of honour. IIRC, he says he will kill his son in front of a room full of people and to honour his word he has to follow through. I could be wrong but that’s how I interpreted it.
The husband does. But Toranaga could have said no to the baby.
If it were only up to Toranaga, I believe he would spare the child. But that samurai swore he would kill himself and his line in front of the entire council. If Toranaga spared the child, then the Regents could claim it wasn’t enough reparation for threatening the life of a Regent in their chambers. If the Samurai didn’t offer the life of the child, maybe no one would bring it up and the baby would be fine. But clearly, he is rash and doesn’t think his actions through. Also, he never offered the life of Fuji, and they made sure she was spared. Also, in super pragmatic sense, Fuji’s character becomes very important and those events make her arc possible.
Yeah, I guess you’re right actually; he tells loads of people they can’t kill themselves. Why not the baby? Maybe it would be seen as a massive sign of disrespect to Ishido to back out after making the promise?
Not sure. That's why I was looking for some explanation. Could he a culture thing I don't understand as another commenter said.
(Book) I think it is either to prevent an Inigo Montoya thing or because the line is "tainted".
Never thought of Inigo Montoya reasoning but you’re on the spot. As long as a male heir is alive, there may be vassals who’d support him when he’s older and take a revenge on Ishido. Also the family line doesn’t end as long as a male child survives.
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"Seppuku is an honour of which you are not worthy. You shall be crucified like a common criminal." It's bloody brutal in the book how non-chalent they are about different types of death.
It's the result of James Clavell being tortured by IJA soldiers and experiencing their warped version of Bushido moreso than having historical roots. I will have to look for the exact link, but there is an AskHistorians thread that covers the topic. Essentially what it said was if that were to actually happen, it would create way more tension and probably cause that guy's family and supporters to want to avenge him. If the offended party really wanted to diffuse the situation they would reject the offer for him to commit seppuku rather than allow it.
Yeah it is the idealised version of bushido coden that its practitioners would all pretend is the norm. A bit like asking how much influencers earn, hint they all earn less than they want to appear. Reality is there is wiggle room but that doesn't suit such shows when already trying to portray a different culture then you introduce more nuance.
Ishido wants the tension though
would be great if you could find that AskHistorians thread you are referring to, I'd be interested to read it (and I imagine others as well) <3
From u / parallelpain Judging by the clip I saw on youtube, no it wouldn't be. 1. The man's wakizashi (I think) did not even leave his scabbard. Seppuku seems way too harsh a punishment. Besides the aftermath of battle and war, at the time seppuku seem to have been the punishment for treason, and this is far from treason. While it's comparing to fiction as well, if this was NHK's Taiga Drama the man would likely be ordered to stand down, maybe leave the inner halls until the meeting ends, but otherwise go unpunished. 2. I have no idea why the man requested seppuku when no one seem to have bothered citing which law he broke, and 3. Not only did he request his own death, but also that of his entire line. His death would have absolved any legal problems and there's no need for anyone else to die. 4. Perhaps this is something to do with the characters' relationships in the show that is explained in more detail, but if the man was of high enough rank to be sitting right at the entrance, that means he was likely (one of) the highest ranking of Toranaga's guards present, meaning he was a man of high standing and ability and lots of connections. Why Toranaga would let him die like that I do not understand. At that point in time warriors' loyalties were clearly bought, and having the man die like that would result in accusations of cowardice and Toranaga not willing to protect his subordinate who was only standing up for him, likely leading to Toranaga's men turning sides, or at least cracks in loyalty that could be exploited. If anything, Toranaga should be trying to excuse his behaviour to save him, not least because he was likely related to Toranaga or one of Toranaga's ranking vassals. 5. Both Toranaga and the opposing lords seemed to act as if "accepting" the seppuku was diffusing the situation. A seppuku here would be pushing the sides closer to war. Historically after Hideyoshi's death and before Sekigahara, the situation was tense enough that there were rumors of assassination plots and actual armed standoffs and assaults (or protests at least), but no one was ordered to commit seppuku for these. For instance, in 1599 for plotting to assassinate Tokugawa Ieyasu (lord Toranaga's historical counterpart) the conspirators were ordered into exile, house arrest, or to send Ieyasu hostages to ensure their loyalty. Despite the whole situation it seems no one died (violently) until the outbreak of war.
I think there’s a comment in the show about Ishido causing the bloodline death. Toranaga had to allow what Fuji’s husband swore to to take place (ending bloodline) or else Ishido would find it a slight against him or something It is 1600 Japan. Very different beliefs.
Yeah, that baby scene ruined me for two days. But you’ll get past it at episode 6 I think
I’m gonna assume you’re from a western country. The problem is that you’re looking at the scene with western 21st century eyes. Sure nowadays it would be extremely excessive to do that, but that scene is there to show you that that’s how it worked in Japan at that time. What Fuji’s husband did was extremely serious and could very well be used as pretext for Ishido to order everyone there killed, so Toranaga didn’t have the luxury of being like “ok just this should be enough”, Ishido likely wouldn’t be satisfied if the son was left alive (even more so because he could seek revenge in the future).
Here is an interesting scene from the book from Ishido’s perspective. Heavy spoilers. >! “Ishido was prepared for the death blow and made no move to defend himself. This was what he had planned for, hoped for, and his men had been ordered not to interfere until he was dead. If he, Ishido, were killed here, now, by a Toranaga samurai, the whole Osaka garrison could fall on Toranaga legitimately and slay him, irrespective of the hostage…”!< Here are Toranaga’s feelings in the incident. >! “He understood, too, why Ishido had been so insulting and inflammatory. I will repay you with an enormity of interest, Ishido, he promised silently.” !<
I also recommend listening to the official podcast. The producers/writers/actors and experts go more into details in each episodes. Happy viewing
Because the baby was Osama bin laden