Is this the Necron book that has an actually Trans Overlord, (Overlady?) I saw an excerpt between two Necrons that basically went something like:
"Ah yes, our Matriarch willed it and so it was done."
"Of course. I thought you had a Patriarch, however?"
"That changed."
I quite liked it for not being a sledgehammer of representation but working the idea that a Necron overseer had transitioned at some point into the narrative without like, doing a whole thing about it.
Yep. The Phaeron/Phaerakh of the Ogdobekh Dynasty. (Phaerakh is the title used by the explicitly female ruler of the Maynarkh Dynasty. Xun'bakyr, the Mother of Oblivion. But I think Phaerakh has popped up anywhere else)
Yeah at this point it seems clear that GW is using the two ‘fun’ factions (orks and Necrons) to pump as much ‘subversive’ stuff into 40k as they can fit. Im enjoying the hell out if it, am very interested on how it’ll affect the chuds
The description of the Dysphorak was genuinely chilling to me, as someone who is lucky enough not to have to suffer dysphoria. The idea that this was just a fictional representation of what real people have to go through was very sobering.
One is approachable for kids, and is good.
The other Steven Universe.
But seriously, Steven Universe is still good. And the argument that “It makes sense for the Diamonds because they’ve never encountered this” is a perfectly fine allegory for a parent or someone who has never encountered a trans person. Just because it’s gem biology as they understand it, actually makes it a good allegory. It’s not dissimilar to how transphobes invalidate trans people by spouting “It’s basic biology.”
...metaphor is a totally ok thing for a story though? Especially a story for kids. When you take an overly critical eye to a story, it kind of breaks all kids media. Like, Aang from the last Airbender is a pacifist... Except for all those times he pushed tanks off mountains, or crushed them, or blew stuff up. But the story needs him to do these things in order to progress and get to the message it's trying to tell.
I don’t think you’re giving kids enough credit. They don’t have to know that Steven is explicitly a trans metaphor, they’re watching a kid standup against larger than life villains and saying quite literally “I’m not Pink, I’m Steven!” Whether they see the trans metaphor or not the story is about respecting someone’s identity even if it’s changed.
And each diamond acts differently toward Steven. Yellow iirc is quite kind but problematic in her own way. Like she wasn’t purposefully cruel to Steven like White and Blue would be, and faces her own family trauma with and because of Steven.
Kids stories are usually metaphorical, like the Boy Who Cried Wolf isn’t about a literal wolf, but the moral of the story is still obvious.
I think I misspoke in this particular comment, though the broader point is that making a story element a metaphor is fine, but if the literal interpretation of that event—particularly in a kid's show—doesn't line up with the metaphor then you're going to have some disagreement in the message you send.
In some cases, you very well can mend abusive relationships (how complicated and messy that process will look is besides the point) but you'd be very unlikely to just convince an intergalactic fascistic empire to just...stop being fascistic. Trying to is going to be very dangerous and a waste of time and lives. Not that that's as harmful a message to push as something more grounded like "stick a fork in an electrical outlet if you want to see your skeleton!" or something like that, but the themes clash a little bit.
The issue is the metaphor and the text doesn’t add up and it expects us to feel bad that the ableist space conquers lost their sister.
Are you sure about that? Kids have surprised me with how much they pick up from media. Analogy and metaphor is a powerful tool in helping them understand an extremely complex issue. It helps to set a building block from which more complex discussion can be had.
As for the second point, you're right. Which makes his conflict about not killing the fire lord a bit silly, as he already has a body count, and probably a pretty high one. But that's not the point the show is trying to tell us. It's a question of "is it right to take a life, even of a monster?" To which it firmly answers, "No." Overanalyzing the show, and going , "oh yeah, Aang definitely killed a bunch of people," takes away from the message the show is trying to tell us. It's a simplified look at the ideals of pacifism, and it does a fairly good job of showing it for all 3 seasons.
And just to be clear, I agree with your main point of your original thesis. Lol just quibbling about metaphors.
> Which makes his conflict about not killing the fire lord a bit silly, as he already has a body count, and probably a pretty high one
He woke up to the consequences of him unleashing a massive wave on the Fire Nation invading the north, and he was still shaken about it a few episodes after. And the number of past Avatars that clearly say "no, it's not wrong to kill a monster. They gave up their right to life when they set out to end even more lives." Aang just didn't want to add *any* more blood to his hands and he got a deus ex turtle solution. Ironically, the show does present pacifism as a good and valid path but not one to stick blindly to when extreme situations make being a pacifist an accessory to much worse people. To step outside of just a body count by killing, Aang broke tons of people's bones but that was always depicted as a response when other options were closed. There's a lot more gravitas to it than, say, the disney star wars films.
I do otherwise agree that people tend to vastly oversimplify what children are capable of understanding. While Sesame Street has done repeated sketches against entitled bullies and self-obsessed rich people, the point has been made less overtly and a lot of kids who noticed that were the ones who pointed it out to me.
Semi-related question for the sub: Should I, an adult who sometimes enjoys cartoons, watch Steven Universe? When I was a kid Steven Universe didn't really look appealing compared to Adventure Time, Regular Show and Justice League so I kind of missed it, but am I missing anything important?
I really liked Steven Universe and started watching it as a 20-something "adult."
The show isn't perfect, and it took a while to find its feet in the first season when it started as a more traditional 'monster of the week' show. Season 1's mid-season finale is when a lot of the background information they had been feeding you develops into a broader narrative that starts to layer on interesting stories and themes.
I actually started by accidentally watching the first season's finale and then backtracked into the show. There were major spoilers as a result, but it gave me the framework to contextualize events in the show. If you can, I remember in the old tumblr days of someone creating a shortened list of episodes for Season 1 to cut out the fluff called the "Flood Order." I ended up making my own variant, which didn't cut out episodes that had explicit horror themes because I felt they were important to setting the actual range of the shows themes and tones.
The active rollout of the show suffered from mismanagement from CN, and I feel like they were forced to wrap up the show early. But overall, I thought it was a fantastic ride that hearkened back to the days of cartoons having valuable morals for audiences to learn.
It’s fun.
Don’t know why people feel it was the greatest sin to walk this mortal earth when there are way worse shows or even good shows with worse endings.
That said I got the most out of it as someone who watched as it released and therefore got to experience it move from a monster of the week to a serious show.
Gonna be real bossman youre pitting two things against eachother which don't even come Close to being comparable. Apples and Oranges
This is a dumb take
If it were not for the laws of this sub i would beat you to death. The term you are looking for is applicability and it's not the only way to engage with SU. It's *one of* the ways to read Steven's relationship with the Diamonds but like everything you take it so literally instead of in metaphor. Which was kind of intentional seeing as the creator, Rebecca Sugar (A nonbinary jewish person) had to fight tooth and nail to even get this damn show on the air as it was. The Diamonds can be a metaphor for everything from a system that keeps itself up despite the harm it causes to everyone (even those who enforce it) or an estranged family.
It's a children's show, no shit it's meant to be taken as a metaphor instead of giving you a play by play experience of being trans. (especially since the era it was made in DID NOT ALLOW EXPLICIT REPRESENTATION OF QUEER CONCEPTS/IDEAS) Kids can still relate to these concepts even if they don't have the language to understand what they're feeling, and in fact many kids can relate to this even if they are not trans.
The issue is that the metaphor only works if you treat it allegorically and not literally then it seems like space Nazis got left out with a sorry.
These bitches Tortured the mentally and physically disabled for milliana and their main crime was that they hurt Pink.
My Life as a Teenage Robot is a much better trans allegory because it doesn’t just work as a allegory.
The show also demonizes Pink for escaping her abusers.
See, I always took the Pink Diamond to Rose Quartz switch to be “victim of long term familial abuse escapes and changes identity to become a new person not tethered to their family,” which gets thoroughly fucked up if carried through to the end when said victim’s friends and child come to vilify them for escaping and then embrace their abusers with an “oh, you wacky diamonds!” finger wiggle and a laugh track.
I don’t like Future
King they're closer to space colonialists, no less evil but they are not space nazis. They're literally the only race aside from humans and they are basically robots made for a singular purpose who cannot comprehend taking another role BECAUSE THEY ARE BASICALLY ROBOTS. You have been eating too many anti su memes and now think they're true. begging you to stop listening to them and actually watch the damn show before you make karma farming bad takes like this.
The way they treated their own race was horrible with the Forced Fusion experiments being a horrific parody of the concept of relationships themselves and having a robot that hunts down and shatters the deviants.
I didn’t say kill because shattered gems are still aware just put into dozens of parts trying to get back together which is even worse.
Yes and guess what Future shows? Yellow WORKING TO FIX SHATTERED GEMS. For fucks sake, did you actually watch the show or were you too distracted by your hateboner because you were pissed off this was a magical girl show instead of the sci fi show you wanted?
And Pink was never demonized for being abused or leaving. If anything, Pink shows that even those who are abused have things they need to work on or can wind up hurting those they love. (See: Vollyball and Pearl, with Pearl being the one who knew Pink as someone working to become better while Vollyball only knew her bad side; or how about Pink/Rose learning real maturity for the first time when Greg called her out on her childishness) the only reason people take the "Pink is demonized" side is because the show never shies away from the ugly side of victimhood, or the systems that allow this abuse to happen and fester, and it's told from Steven's perspective; who grows frustrated that he spent most of his childhood feeling the need to clean up after the things Pink left behind. (and let's be real here - that isnt Pink's fault. She wanted to live but her past kept coming back) Not to mention steven LITERALLY ACKNOWLEDGING THAT THE ABUSE PINK WENT THROUGH WAS FUCKED UP AND TELLING THE DIAMONDS TO CHANGE AND BE BETTER AND CHANGING THE WHOLE OF GEM SOCIETY.
anyway, you're stupid, never type another word again.
I watched Steven universe with my kids when I was coming out. It was helpful for all of us tbh.
Haven't read twice dead king, sounds like I should though. :)
I know this is a pretty old thread now, but saying that a literal repeat of a transphobic horror concept is better than a possibly unintentional slightly messy metaphor is super weird. Why did this thread get any upvotes.
I need that humans aren’t people from the perspective of Necrons, but that feels like splitting hairs over lore. The Flayed Ones being a trans metaphor is implicitly comparing trans people to a literal stereotype of them that has existed since Silence of the Lambs, and is no good
I mean, I’m not saying we can’t empathize with them (We should!), otherwise I would be way too hypocritical with all my Slaanesh shitposting, but just like with that the reactionary roots are just too strong for the metaphors and ideas themselves to be anything except stereotypes we playfully engage with to mock the people who make them
I wouldn’t call Steven Universe slightly messy metaphor. It’s such a bad metaphor that only works if you treat it as a metaphor and even then it demonizes a abuse victor
I would hesitantly agree, but honestly that just puts both in the same terrible situation. The reason I think SU has any sort of advantage is because it’s only problematic once investigated, rather than being a direct one for one repeat of a bad stereotype
Btw I’m sorry for coming across hostile with these comments, I reacted negatively but I understand where you’re coming from
Given that the Flayed Ones go around Buffalo Bill-ing people I don't think it sounds very good, if it's an analogy then it's one where transition harms cis people, which is pretty TERFy. But I haven't read the book.
It's a complicated one-to-one metaphor. The point of the *story* is to not write off "atypical" behavior as deviance and diseased, and instead find empathy and understand the trauma instead of simply pushing it aside or ignoring it.
If we are adamant on stretching the cheese of the pizza metaphor though; Flayers don't hurt "cis people" because they don't mess with Necrons, unless the Necrons try to oppress them.
No. The flayed ones don't harm anyone (except for the unclean of course). In fact they are shown to be completely docile and even friendly towards Oltyx and his people.
True, but we are considering the analogy within the context of the Twice Dead King duology. All enemies of the Infinite Empire are presented as little more than animals, to be slaughtered or to fled from as needed. Not as thinking beings who can be reasoned with. The necrons do not view the flayed ones' victims as *people*.
In the analogy, necrons without the Flayer virus are cis people. The flayed ones' prey don't really map to anything in reality, because the Flayer Curse is portrayed not as a 1:1 equivalency to real life body dysmorphia, but more as dysmorphia+pika.
The cis people in the book would be the Necrons from other dynasties who don't feel the "dysphorakh" as strongly. The humans of the book aren't really "humanized". To the necrons, humans are a crazy alien species.
At the end of the day while the author did manage to use the tools they had to write an interesting trans allegory, it still had to be a Warhammer book.
Ok... let me, a trans woman, attempt to explain why I don't feel comfortable with this.
First off, cis would not be the people who feel less dysphoria (that sounds like they're meant to be eggs), it's the thing they yearn to be.
The "transition" process for flayed ones involves, well, flaying people and wearing their skin in a thin facsimile of being organic. This harms people and can never be more than "skin deep", neither of which is good for the analogy.
Regardless of whose perspective it's from, if they're supposed to be a trans analogy then it's an inherently bad one because they decided to use a horror trope! I referenced Silence of the Lambs for a reason. They could write it perfectly, maybe they did, but the framing itself is uncomfortable.
I feel the issue is trying to be progressive in 40k is kinda built to backfire. I'm getting more into lore and one thing is clear so far is everyone sucks and it ain't called grim dark for nothing so wanting a reader to identify with a robot skeleton that Buffalo bills people was always gonna come of back handed.
Based on the synopsis of the book and the lore I learned so far I see a contradiction between well intending progressives wanting to do progress and the fundamental grim dark vibe of 40k in that morbid curiosity for how fucked up can 40k get is what got alot of fans into 40k in the first place.
I get wanting to see good values in characters I do after all I like pics of salamanders peting cats and that's sweet and all but at the end of the day salamanders still have a duty to burn some heretics and in the grand scheme of things if the if astartes decide not to purge chaos when they see it the quality of life for the proletariat probably won't improve if demons are allowed to run a muck. Would I call the Grey knights good people no, the scorched earth policy on corruption is sick but understandable considering in a way leaving a moons population extinct could be seen as merciful compared to letting nurgal turn them in to human a petri dish
Am I saying surrender the hobby to the chuds FUCK NO they don't deserve to have this fun hobby to them selves but, we may want temper our expectations and appreciate the fact the author tried and understand that in the grim dark everything sucks and it supposed to suck. Thag Mar wasn't supposed to be relatable or an endorsement the worst person to happen to Ireland he was supposed spit on the memory of a bad person in simultaneously goofy and morbidly horrific way with no subtlety.
Specifically to the necron though there are established lore reasons that makes the allegory a mess.
Firstly if you wanted to interpret the flayed ones as Trans people bad ( you'd be an idiot but ) you could. Secondly in a giga fucked interpretation we definitely don't need to compare queer folk to the flayed ones because the flayer virus is a literal virus and I think we all want better representation but if what we get is the star God Llandu'gor, the Flayer has a sickness but, its no ordinary sickness but a sickness of the mind.
This homophobic propaganda reference I think sums up why the allegory is not just flawed just inappropriate because in the 41st millennium there is no hope, progress or peace there is only war.
I think progressivism *can* work, personally- grimdark has room for people trying to do their best or just living their lives in the face of insurmountable horror. It's all the more grimdark for their struggle being in vain.
I just don't think *this case* works because the flayed ones are body horror, that's just never going to make a good analogy.
Steven Universe lost me when it tripped on its own metaphor in regards to fusion and what it what it meant.
Fusion means love, specifically queer love as the union of Ruby and Sapphire is seen as a weird taboo. But its also about relationships.. even toxic or abusive ones like Lapis and the orange one... but its also clearly sex and tries to take a more relaxed sex positive approach to things... but its also the growing childhood friendship between Steven and Connie... but its also flawed since Ruby and Sapphire are said to be codependent...
Frankly its a mess and I don't blame anyone for feeling pretty uncomfortable. At no point while watching a show for children should I wonder if I am watching a boy have magical sex with his mom. I am not accusing the SU staff of anything but losing track of their own writing and wanting to use fusion as a vehicle for whatever theme they wanted to explore that week but taken as a whole its clunky to the point of creepy.
I too like when genocidal space robots who "transitioned" from biological to artificial life because their rulers were tricked by star vampire "gods" are used as trans allegory. Nothing weird about that.
Is this the Necron book that has an actually Trans Overlord, (Overlady?) I saw an excerpt between two Necrons that basically went something like: "Ah yes, our Matriarch willed it and so it was done." "Of course. I thought you had a Patriarch, however?" "That changed." I quite liked it for not being a sledgehammer of representation but working the idea that a Necron overseer had transitioned at some point into the narrative without like, doing a whole thing about it.
yet another Ogdobekh W
OgDUBekh
Yep. The Phaeron/Phaerakh of the Ogdobekh Dynasty. (Phaerakh is the title used by the explicitly female ruler of the Maynarkh Dynasty. Xun'bakyr, the Mother of Oblivion. But I think Phaerakh has popped up anywhere else)
Yeah at this point it seems clear that GW is using the two ‘fun’ factions (orks and Necrons) to pump as much ‘subversive’ stuff into 40k as they can fit. Im enjoying the hell out if it, am very interested on how it’ll affect the chuds
They won't notice it because they can't look up from the space marine lore wiki for more than 30 seconds
I mean also, it plays into the whole necron thing of whatever the Overlord declaring being reality
The description of the Dysphorak was genuinely chilling to me, as someone who is lucky enough not to have to suffer dysphoria. The idea that this was just a fictional representation of what real people have to go through was very sobering.
One is approachable for kids, and is good. The other Steven Universe. But seriously, Steven Universe is still good. And the argument that “It makes sense for the Diamonds because they’ve never encountered this” is a perfectly fine allegory for a parent or someone who has never encountered a trans person. Just because it’s gem biology as they understand it, actually makes it a good allegory. It’s not dissimilar to how transphobes invalidate trans people by spouting “It’s basic biology.”
The issue is Steven Universe only works if you take it as a metaphor because the text is space hitlers
...metaphor is a totally ok thing for a story though? Especially a story for kids. When you take an overly critical eye to a story, it kind of breaks all kids media. Like, Aang from the last Airbender is a pacifist... Except for all those times he pushed tanks off mountains, or crushed them, or blew stuff up. But the story needs him to do these things in order to progress and get to the message it's trying to tell.
Children often don’t get a metaphor especially when it conflicts with the text like Steven Universe. Aang fought against Soldiers in a war
I don’t think you’re giving kids enough credit. They don’t have to know that Steven is explicitly a trans metaphor, they’re watching a kid standup against larger than life villains and saying quite literally “I’m not Pink, I’m Steven!” Whether they see the trans metaphor or not the story is about respecting someone’s identity even if it’s changed. And each diamond acts differently toward Steven. Yellow iirc is quite kind but problematic in her own way. Like she wasn’t purposefully cruel to Steven like White and Blue would be, and faces her own family trauma with and because of Steven. Kids stories are usually metaphorical, like the Boy Who Cried Wolf isn’t about a literal wolf, but the moral of the story is still obvious.
It isn’t that the Diamonds where mean to Steven that was the issue it’s what they did to everyone else that’s the issue.
I think I misspoke in this particular comment, though the broader point is that making a story element a metaphor is fine, but if the literal interpretation of that event—particularly in a kid's show—doesn't line up with the metaphor then you're going to have some disagreement in the message you send. In some cases, you very well can mend abusive relationships (how complicated and messy that process will look is besides the point) but you'd be very unlikely to just convince an intergalactic fascistic empire to just...stop being fascistic. Trying to is going to be very dangerous and a waste of time and lives. Not that that's as harmful a message to push as something more grounded like "stick a fork in an electrical outlet if you want to see your skeleton!" or something like that, but the themes clash a little bit. The issue is the metaphor and the text doesn’t add up and it expects us to feel bad that the ableist space conquers lost their sister.
Are you sure about that? Kids have surprised me with how much they pick up from media. Analogy and metaphor is a powerful tool in helping them understand an extremely complex issue. It helps to set a building block from which more complex discussion can be had. As for the second point, you're right. Which makes his conflict about not killing the fire lord a bit silly, as he already has a body count, and probably a pretty high one. But that's not the point the show is trying to tell us. It's a question of "is it right to take a life, even of a monster?" To which it firmly answers, "No." Overanalyzing the show, and going , "oh yeah, Aang definitely killed a bunch of people," takes away from the message the show is trying to tell us. It's a simplified look at the ideals of pacifism, and it does a fairly good job of showing it for all 3 seasons. And just to be clear, I agree with your main point of your original thesis. Lol just quibbling about metaphors.
> Which makes his conflict about not killing the fire lord a bit silly, as he already has a body count, and probably a pretty high one He woke up to the consequences of him unleashing a massive wave on the Fire Nation invading the north, and he was still shaken about it a few episodes after. And the number of past Avatars that clearly say "no, it's not wrong to kill a monster. They gave up their right to life when they set out to end even more lives." Aang just didn't want to add *any* more blood to his hands and he got a deus ex turtle solution. Ironically, the show does present pacifism as a good and valid path but not one to stick blindly to when extreme situations make being a pacifist an accessory to much worse people. To step outside of just a body count by killing, Aang broke tons of people's bones but that was always depicted as a response when other options were closed. There's a lot more gravitas to it than, say, the disney star wars films. I do otherwise agree that people tend to vastly oversimplify what children are capable of understanding. While Sesame Street has done repeated sketches against entitled bullies and self-obsessed rich people, the point has been made less overtly and a lot of kids who noticed that were the ones who pointed it out to me.
Ozai was thrown in jail for his crimes
This is like something I would have written in my early 20s before I had kids.
And the text of Warhammer isn't?
Holy crap Necrons are even more cooler now
This is the same king who wrote an ork character saying da boyz don’t hold to hummie concepts of “sexangenda”
And the space marine he’s talking to is like ‘look please use he/him pronouns this is confusing to me’
Real and based. The necrons are both trans and transhumanist (or i guess transnecrontyrist in their case). What’s not to love?
Ok, but show me a necron singing "Giant woman'
The Necrons do watch plays that can last decades, so you might get that
Publicly funded plays that last decades.
I crave the strength and certainty of steel
Steven Universe's ending doesn't get better as an allegory, it's just forgiving abuse instead of forgiving facism.
Semi-related question for the sub: Should I, an adult who sometimes enjoys cartoons, watch Steven Universe? When I was a kid Steven Universe didn't really look appealing compared to Adventure Time, Regular Show and Justice League so I kind of missed it, but am I missing anything important?
I really liked Steven Universe and started watching it as a 20-something "adult." The show isn't perfect, and it took a while to find its feet in the first season when it started as a more traditional 'monster of the week' show. Season 1's mid-season finale is when a lot of the background information they had been feeding you develops into a broader narrative that starts to layer on interesting stories and themes. I actually started by accidentally watching the first season's finale and then backtracked into the show. There were major spoilers as a result, but it gave me the framework to contextualize events in the show. If you can, I remember in the old tumblr days of someone creating a shortened list of episodes for Season 1 to cut out the fluff called the "Flood Order." I ended up making my own variant, which didn't cut out episodes that had explicit horror themes because I felt they were important to setting the actual range of the shows themes and tones. The active rollout of the show suffered from mismanagement from CN, and I feel like they were forced to wrap up the show early. But overall, I thought it was a fantastic ride that hearkened back to the days of cartoons having valuable morals for audiences to learn.
It’s fun. Don’t know why people feel it was the greatest sin to walk this mortal earth when there are way worse shows or even good shows with worse endings. That said I got the most out of it as someone who watched as it released and therefore got to experience it move from a monster of the week to a serious show.
Not really.
It's okay.
Gonna be real bossman youre pitting two things against eachother which don't even come Close to being comparable. Apples and Oranges This is a dumb take
If it were not for the laws of this sub i would beat you to death. The term you are looking for is applicability and it's not the only way to engage with SU. It's *one of* the ways to read Steven's relationship with the Diamonds but like everything you take it so literally instead of in metaphor. Which was kind of intentional seeing as the creator, Rebecca Sugar (A nonbinary jewish person) had to fight tooth and nail to even get this damn show on the air as it was. The Diamonds can be a metaphor for everything from a system that keeps itself up despite the harm it causes to everyone (even those who enforce it) or an estranged family. It's a children's show, no shit it's meant to be taken as a metaphor instead of giving you a play by play experience of being trans. (especially since the era it was made in DID NOT ALLOW EXPLICIT REPRESENTATION OF QUEER CONCEPTS/IDEAS) Kids can still relate to these concepts even if they don't have the language to understand what they're feeling, and in fact many kids can relate to this even if they are not trans.
The issue is that the metaphor only works if you treat it allegorically and not literally then it seems like space Nazis got left out with a sorry. These bitches Tortured the mentally and physically disabled for milliana and their main crime was that they hurt Pink. My Life as a Teenage Robot is a much better trans allegory because it doesn’t just work as a allegory. The show also demonizes Pink for escaping her abusers. See, I always took the Pink Diamond to Rose Quartz switch to be “victim of long term familial abuse escapes and changes identity to become a new person not tethered to their family,” which gets thoroughly fucked up if carried through to the end when said victim’s friends and child come to vilify them for escaping and then embrace their abusers with an “oh, you wacky diamonds!” finger wiggle and a laugh track. I don’t like Future
King they're closer to space colonialists, no less evil but they are not space nazis. They're literally the only race aside from humans and they are basically robots made for a singular purpose who cannot comprehend taking another role BECAUSE THEY ARE BASICALLY ROBOTS. You have been eating too many anti su memes and now think they're true. begging you to stop listening to them and actually watch the damn show before you make karma farming bad takes like this.
The way they treated their own race was horrible with the Forced Fusion experiments being a horrific parody of the concept of relationships themselves and having a robot that hunts down and shatters the deviants. I didn’t say kill because shattered gems are still aware just put into dozens of parts trying to get back together which is even worse.
Yes and guess what Future shows? Yellow WORKING TO FIX SHATTERED GEMS. For fucks sake, did you actually watch the show or were you too distracted by your hateboner because you were pissed off this was a magical girl show instead of the sci fi show you wanted? And Pink was never demonized for being abused or leaving. If anything, Pink shows that even those who are abused have things they need to work on or can wind up hurting those they love. (See: Vollyball and Pearl, with Pearl being the one who knew Pink as someone working to become better while Vollyball only knew her bad side; or how about Pink/Rose learning real maturity for the first time when Greg called her out on her childishness) the only reason people take the "Pink is demonized" side is because the show never shies away from the ugly side of victimhood, or the systems that allow this abuse to happen and fester, and it's told from Steven's perspective; who grows frustrated that he spent most of his childhood feeling the need to clean up after the things Pink left behind. (and let's be real here - that isnt Pink's fault. She wanted to live but her past kept coming back) Not to mention steven LITERALLY ACKNOWLEDGING THAT THE ABUSE PINK WENT THROUGH WAS FUCKED UP AND TELLING THE DIAMONDS TO CHANGE AND BE BETTER AND CHANGING THE WHOLE OF GEM SOCIETY. anyway, you're stupid, never type another word again.
I watched Steven universe with my kids when I was coming out. It was helpful for all of us tbh. Haven't read twice dead king, sounds like I should though. :)
I hate to see two faves fight.
Very sexy of you, Nate.
I know this is a pretty old thread now, but saying that a literal repeat of a transphobic horror concept is better than a possibly unintentional slightly messy metaphor is super weird. Why did this thread get any upvotes. I need that humans aren’t people from the perspective of Necrons, but that feels like splitting hairs over lore. The Flayed Ones being a trans metaphor is implicitly comparing trans people to a literal stereotype of them that has existed since Silence of the Lambs, and is no good I mean, I’m not saying we can’t empathize with them (We should!), otherwise I would be way too hypocritical with all my Slaanesh shitposting, but just like with that the reactionary roots are just too strong for the metaphors and ideas themselves to be anything except stereotypes we playfully engage with to mock the people who make them
I wouldn’t call Steven Universe slightly messy metaphor. It’s such a bad metaphor that only works if you treat it as a metaphor and even then it demonizes a abuse victor
I would hesitantly agree, but honestly that just puts both in the same terrible situation. The reason I think SU has any sort of advantage is because it’s only problematic once investigated, rather than being a direct one for one repeat of a bad stereotype Btw I’m sorry for coming across hostile with these comments, I reacted negatively but I understand where you’re coming from
Lmao, this sub is an exceptional kind of autism. I respect it though.
Given that the Flayed Ones go around Buffalo Bill-ing people I don't think it sounds very good, if it's an analogy then it's one where transition harms cis people, which is pretty TERFy. But I haven't read the book.
The Flayed Ones are portrayed as the good guys in the book, and are the only Necrons not to be portrayed as out and out evil.
It's a complicated one-to-one metaphor. The point of the *story* is to not write off "atypical" behavior as deviance and diseased, and instead find empathy and understand the trauma instead of simply pushing it aside or ignoring it. If we are adamant on stretching the cheese of the pizza metaphor though; Flayers don't hurt "cis people" because they don't mess with Necrons, unless the Necrons try to oppress them.
No. The flayed ones don't harm anyone (except for the unclean of course). In fact they are shown to be completely docile and even friendly towards Oltyx and his people.
Yes the Flayed Ones don’t hurt other Necrons as they don’t have any flesh and are treated like diseased dogs to be let out on the battle field
They wear people's skin.
True, but we are considering the analogy within the context of the Twice Dead King duology. All enemies of the Infinite Empire are presented as little more than animals, to be slaughtered or to fled from as needed. Not as thinking beings who can be reasoned with. The necrons do not view the flayed ones' victims as *people*. In the analogy, necrons without the Flayer virus are cis people. The flayed ones' prey don't really map to anything in reality, because the Flayer Curse is portrayed not as a 1:1 equivalency to real life body dysmorphia, but more as dysmorphia+pika.
The thing is, that larger context exists. A specter is haunting 40k lore - the specter of skin suits :V
The cis people in the book would be the Necrons from other dynasties who don't feel the "dysphorakh" as strongly. The humans of the book aren't really "humanized". To the necrons, humans are a crazy alien species. At the end of the day while the author did manage to use the tools they had to write an interesting trans allegory, it still had to be a Warhammer book.
Ok... let me, a trans woman, attempt to explain why I don't feel comfortable with this. First off, cis would not be the people who feel less dysphoria (that sounds like they're meant to be eggs), it's the thing they yearn to be. The "transition" process for flayed ones involves, well, flaying people and wearing their skin in a thin facsimile of being organic. This harms people and can never be more than "skin deep", neither of which is good for the analogy. Regardless of whose perspective it's from, if they're supposed to be a trans analogy then it's an inherently bad one because they decided to use a horror trope! I referenced Silence of the Lambs for a reason. They could write it perfectly, maybe they did, but the framing itself is uncomfortable.
I feel the issue is trying to be progressive in 40k is kinda built to backfire. I'm getting more into lore and one thing is clear so far is everyone sucks and it ain't called grim dark for nothing so wanting a reader to identify with a robot skeleton that Buffalo bills people was always gonna come of back handed. Based on the synopsis of the book and the lore I learned so far I see a contradiction between well intending progressives wanting to do progress and the fundamental grim dark vibe of 40k in that morbid curiosity for how fucked up can 40k get is what got alot of fans into 40k in the first place. I get wanting to see good values in characters I do after all I like pics of salamanders peting cats and that's sweet and all but at the end of the day salamanders still have a duty to burn some heretics and in the grand scheme of things if the if astartes decide not to purge chaos when they see it the quality of life for the proletariat probably won't improve if demons are allowed to run a muck. Would I call the Grey knights good people no, the scorched earth policy on corruption is sick but understandable considering in a way leaving a moons population extinct could be seen as merciful compared to letting nurgal turn them in to human a petri dish Am I saying surrender the hobby to the chuds FUCK NO they don't deserve to have this fun hobby to them selves but, we may want temper our expectations and appreciate the fact the author tried and understand that in the grim dark everything sucks and it supposed to suck. Thag Mar wasn't supposed to be relatable or an endorsement the worst person to happen to Ireland he was supposed spit on the memory of a bad person in simultaneously goofy and morbidly horrific way with no subtlety. Specifically to the necron though there are established lore reasons that makes the allegory a mess. Firstly if you wanted to interpret the flayed ones as Trans people bad ( you'd be an idiot but ) you could. Secondly in a giga fucked interpretation we definitely don't need to compare queer folk to the flayed ones because the flayer virus is a literal virus and I think we all want better representation but if what we get is the star God Llandu'gor, the Flayer has a sickness but, its no ordinary sickness but a sickness of the mind. This homophobic propaganda reference I think sums up why the allegory is not just flawed just inappropriate because in the 41st millennium there is no hope, progress or peace there is only war.
I think progressivism *can* work, personally- grimdark has room for people trying to do their best or just living their lives in the face of insurmountable horror. It's all the more grimdark for their struggle being in vain. I just don't think *this case* works because the flayed ones are body horror, that's just never going to make a good analogy.
Indeed
Steven Universe lost me when it tripped on its own metaphor in regards to fusion and what it what it meant. Fusion means love, specifically queer love as the union of Ruby and Sapphire is seen as a weird taboo. But its also about relationships.. even toxic or abusive ones like Lapis and the orange one... but its also clearly sex and tries to take a more relaxed sex positive approach to things... but its also the growing childhood friendship between Steven and Connie... but its also flawed since Ruby and Sapphire are said to be codependent... Frankly its a mess and I don't blame anyone for feeling pretty uncomfortable. At no point while watching a show for children should I wonder if I am watching a boy have magical sex with his mom. I am not accusing the SU staff of anything but losing track of their own writing and wanting to use fusion as a vehicle for whatever theme they wanted to explore that week but taken as a whole its clunky to the point of creepy.
I too like when genocidal space robots who "transitioned" from biological to artificial life because their rulers were tricked by star vampire "gods" are used as trans allegory. Nothing weird about that.