True, the Eggmemos do add more context to their relation with Eggman and Sage, but the fact that in the [emotional flashback ](https://youtu.be/9pwwvJzKULc?t=81)that Sage has of her bonding with Eggman consist of nothing but them standing on some floating road in the city and also has footage that the player has probably seen like half an hour ago feels like it's kinda... Rushed, regardless of if the player went out of their way to find the Eggmemos or not.
The music isn't helping either, I can almost hear the writers screaming at me to care about Eggman and Sages father and daughter relationship.
I still stand by the notion that, as a song, '*Dear Father*' is lyrically terrible. It's simultaneously too not specific enough to tie together as an actual closing song to really comment on the end of the story, but also isn't generic enough that it works without the context of it's place in the game.
It tries so hard to tug on any emotional hook, but honestly, when I first heard it I was just rolling my eyes because I hadn't built that emotional connection at all, and, as expected the final scene rendered it all moot anyway by bringing Sage back, with the DLC ending removing her sacrifice entirely.
Sage in general just feels like someones self insert Sonic villian OC with how many special passes they get, Sage is the only creation that Eggman made that he actually developed a close connection with, not even Metal Sonic gets the same amount of praise.
Also Sonic is so weirdly accepting of Sage and willing to hear her out and have a polite conversation when she clearly tried to kill him, first with Giganto and second when she fired a laser that Knuckles deflected.
Sonic's never been the kind to sit around and have a polite discussion with someone antagonising him, when he met Shadow in SA2 he quickly understood that Shadow was the one GUN was after and that he'd been framed. Black Knight Sonic literally fell from the sky and the second he saw King Arthur he instantly knew what was going on and went to work.
Meanwhile in Frontiers, Sage summons a giant robot monster to fling Sonic across the island and fires a laser at him and Sonic's still "Wow guys, let's chill out and talk about our feelings, I'm sure you're a real nice kid if we just calmed down for a moment."
And then Sage is like "Fuck off blue bitch I want you dead."
That sounds terrible if you don't use social media or if the comics get lost in time.
Regarding the flair, thanks I like the trio and I wish for their modern version instead of being stuck in classic.
Ah, sonic fans. Literally any other community would scrape the bottom of the barrel for lore to truly paint the whole picture. Hollow knight fans, Kirby fans, Pokemon fans, soulslike fans…
Alas…not you, apparently.
If fishing minigame gave something useful in term of gameplay or pace, probably I'd consider it once I get my hands on Frontiers.
Then again, better than shoving long dialogues or wall of text journals in items or interactable objects like in Genshin.
What is brevity again?
See, for me I think Sage is the start of a return to form.
2000's Eggman did some rotten things but he wasn't an irredeemable monster, he had standards, he had pragmatism, he had humility; beneath his selfish ideals, he was still human. He can reasonably cooperate with the heroes for a common goal without totally tossing away his villainy, which is already better than Frontiers where Eggman stubbornly refuses to work with Sonic unless he pulls a "you're my minion, not my ally" loophole out of his ass despite being **told** how often he's worked with Sonic in the past. That moment felt more forced than anything they did with Sage.
To me Eggman being sympathetic doesn't make him less evil, it just makes him more layered. I imagine that future installments will continue to give Eggman crazy schemes while also not being afraid to show his humanity more often, because that's what the 2000's did and the series is embracing that era again. I prefer that over him being a cold-blooded psychopath or a walking punchline.
heavily agree and one of the things I hate the most in Frontiers, the JP ver did it way better, with having only Sage (off topic, but the other robots wouldn't see Eggman as their father, especially Metal Sonic)
SEGA just chasing trends yet again. Can't have unapologetically evil characters in kids media anymore, they have to be twist villains with a sympathetic side and relatable motives. No more trying to obtain a magic lamp to rule a kingdom, poisoning an apple to kill someone more beautiful than you, or skinning puppies for a coat, now it's pretending to love someone in order to get a kingdom of your own, or accidentally killing someone in a fire as part of a plan to steal some nanobots to recover your lost daughter.
That seems to be all it is, SEGA saw the trend for sympathetic villains and have tried to turn Eggman into one, and evidently for some people it works.
mortal kombat did it too. Liu Kang made a new timeline and turned every single bad guy into a good guy. each chapter of the game was a redemption arc for them lol
they had to rely on a multiverse version of everyone invading "the real timeline" and they had zero personality; just cannon fodder to be dealt with instantly in the final chapter and then the game ends
the series was about turning people inside out and smashing their bones into dust. now it's about family bonds and friendship and shit
Most of the issues with there dynamic comes from how most of it happens in mistake collectibles in the orouous savure that is fishing. Eggmans been going for like what 30 years? He had a family back in games like sa2 that he clearly cared about, so him having robots and ai to act ad family isn't out of left field. In fact it was a pretty common thing in a decent amount of sonic media for eggman to do that exsact thing, as recent as idw with metal and boom with mom bot. When ever they don't write him as a one dimension villan, his family get ranged into things, and they can't pull the Gerald robotic card forever on that front.
I don't have a problem with sympathetic villains, but I don't think Eggman works as one. The man's been causing problems for everyone (including at least three apocalypses) on purpose for thirty plus years, does Sega really think giving him a [Morality Pet](https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MoralityPet) can reverse that?
Same, I also don’t like the way the characters act nowadays even in Frontiers and IDW, Ian Flynn doesn’t really know how to write the characters (don’t talk about Pantac and Graff because they were hired to make Sonic not be like Sonic but for Ian he was hired to make Sonic the most Sonic he has ever been and he hasn’t really in any of the comics or Frontiers)
I really don't like the rosy dialogue in Frontiers, or the voice direction, either. It feels like a Sonic fan that's trying so hard to make Sonic more deep and mature by having everyone speak with a deeper voice and
d r a g o u t e v e r y w o r d a s s l o w a s p o s s i b l e.
I'm sure Mr Flynn is a good guy with good intentions, but the way he writes the dialogue in Frontiers feels so dry, plain and to the point. Most of the character interactions with Frontiers goes along the lines of:
Amy, Tails and Knuckles: "Man, I used to have *\*insert character flaw\** I sure wish I could do the things that you do, Sonic."
Sonic: "Then do it."
Amy, Tails and Knuckles: "Okay I will, thank you Sonic, you're so cool."
So, what about The Murder of Sonic the Hedgehog, written by Ian Mutchler instead of Ian Flynn and the IDW stuff by Evan Stanley? Was the characterization better in that than Flynn's IDW stuff, Frontiers and Dream Team?
So, what about The Murder of Sonic the Hedgehog, written by Ian Mutchler instead of Ian Flynn and the IDW stuff by Evan Stanley? Was the characterization better in that than Flynn's IDW stuff, Frontiers and Dream Team?
The Sonic Channel things where Sonic and another character interacts with each other, the Japanese scripts for the 2010 games (weren’t completely fixed but better) and Runners which had no Pontac and Graff involved
Eggman's "180" comes across as being much slower if you listen to all of the audio logs from the fishing mini game.
True, the Eggmemos do add more context to their relation with Eggman and Sage, but the fact that in the [emotional flashback ](https://youtu.be/9pwwvJzKULc?t=81)that Sage has of her bonding with Eggman consist of nothing but them standing on some floating road in the city and also has footage that the player has probably seen like half an hour ago feels like it's kinda... Rushed, regardless of if the player went out of their way to find the Eggmemos or not. The music isn't helping either, I can almost hear the writers screaming at me to care about Eggman and Sages father and daughter relationship.
I still stand by the notion that, as a song, '*Dear Father*' is lyrically terrible. It's simultaneously too not specific enough to tie together as an actual closing song to really comment on the end of the story, but also isn't generic enough that it works without the context of it's place in the game. It tries so hard to tug on any emotional hook, but honestly, when I first heard it I was just rolling my eyes because I hadn't built that emotional connection at all, and, as expected the final scene rendered it all moot anyway by bringing Sage back, with the DLC ending removing her sacrifice entirely.
Sage in general just feels like someones self insert Sonic villian OC with how many special passes they get, Sage is the only creation that Eggman made that he actually developed a close connection with, not even Metal Sonic gets the same amount of praise. Also Sonic is so weirdly accepting of Sage and willing to hear her out and have a polite conversation when she clearly tried to kill him, first with Giganto and second when she fired a laser that Knuckles deflected. Sonic's never been the kind to sit around and have a polite discussion with someone antagonising him, when he met Shadow in SA2 he quickly understood that Shadow was the one GUN was after and that he'd been framed. Black Knight Sonic literally fell from the sky and the second he saw King Arthur he instantly knew what was going on and went to work. Meanwhile in Frontiers, Sage summons a giant robot monster to fling Sonic across the island and fires a laser at him and Sonic's still "Wow guys, let's chill out and talk about our feelings, I'm sure you're a real nice kid if we just calmed down for a moment." And then Sage is like "Fuck off blue bitch I want you dead."
Yeah, those kind of paint the whole picture. I listened to all of them and never felt like it was rushed.
Aren't those optional? Can see why people can deem this change as rushed or undwserved.
Remember when you had to get Sonic Forces lore from free social media comics that for some reason weren’t in the actual game? Also nice flair
That sounds terrible if you don't use social media or if the comics get lost in time. Regarding the flair, thanks I like the trio and I wish for their modern version instead of being stuck in classic.
Ah, sonic fans. Literally any other community would scrape the bottom of the barrel for lore to truly paint the whole picture. Hollow knight fans, Kirby fans, Pokemon fans, soulslike fans… Alas…not you, apparently.
If fishing minigame gave something useful in term of gameplay or pace, probably I'd consider it once I get my hands on Frontiers. Then again, better than shoving long dialogues or wall of text journals in items or interactable objects like in Genshin. What is brevity again?
See, for me I think Sage is the start of a return to form. 2000's Eggman did some rotten things but he wasn't an irredeemable monster, he had standards, he had pragmatism, he had humility; beneath his selfish ideals, he was still human. He can reasonably cooperate with the heroes for a common goal without totally tossing away his villainy, which is already better than Frontiers where Eggman stubbornly refuses to work with Sonic unless he pulls a "you're my minion, not my ally" loophole out of his ass despite being **told** how often he's worked with Sonic in the past. That moment felt more forced than anything they did with Sage. To me Eggman being sympathetic doesn't make him less evil, it just makes him more layered. I imagine that future installments will continue to give Eggman crazy schemes while also not being afraid to show his humanity more often, because that's what the 2000's did and the series is embracing that era again. I prefer that over him being a cold-blooded psychopath or a walking punchline.
heavily agree and one of the things I hate the most in Frontiers, the JP ver did it way better, with having only Sage (off topic, but the other robots wouldn't see Eggman as their father, especially Metal Sonic)
SEGA just chasing trends yet again. Can't have unapologetically evil characters in kids media anymore, they have to be twist villains with a sympathetic side and relatable motives. No more trying to obtain a magic lamp to rule a kingdom, poisoning an apple to kill someone more beautiful than you, or skinning puppies for a coat, now it's pretending to love someone in order to get a kingdom of your own, or accidentally killing someone in a fire as part of a plan to steal some nanobots to recover your lost daughter. That seems to be all it is, SEGA saw the trend for sympathetic villains and have tried to turn Eggman into one, and evidently for some people it works.
mortal kombat did it too. Liu Kang made a new timeline and turned every single bad guy into a good guy. each chapter of the game was a redemption arc for them lol they had to rely on a multiverse version of everyone invading "the real timeline" and they had zero personality; just cannon fodder to be dealt with instantly in the final chapter and then the game ends the series was about turning people inside out and smashing their bones into dust. now it's about family bonds and friendship and shit
Most of the issues with there dynamic comes from how most of it happens in mistake collectibles in the orouous savure that is fishing. Eggmans been going for like what 30 years? He had a family back in games like sa2 that he clearly cared about, so him having robots and ai to act ad family isn't out of left field. In fact it was a pretty common thing in a decent amount of sonic media for eggman to do that exsact thing, as recent as idw with metal and boom with mom bot. When ever they don't write him as a one dimension villan, his family get ranged into things, and they can't pull the Gerald robotic card forever on that front.
Well in my opinion I really like Sage and the fact that she makes Eggman seem more human.
I don't have a problem with sympathetic villains, but I don't think Eggman works as one. The man's been causing problems for everyone (including at least three apocalypses) on purpose for thirty plus years, does Sega really think giving him a [Morality Pet](https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MoralityPet) can reverse that?
Same, I also don’t like the way the characters act nowadays even in Frontiers and IDW, Ian Flynn doesn’t really know how to write the characters (don’t talk about Pantac and Graff because they were hired to make Sonic not be like Sonic but for Ian he was hired to make Sonic the most Sonic he has ever been and he hasn’t really in any of the comics or Frontiers)
I really don't like the rosy dialogue in Frontiers, or the voice direction, either. It feels like a Sonic fan that's trying so hard to make Sonic more deep and mature by having everyone speak with a deeper voice and d r a g o u t e v e r y w o r d a s s l o w a s p o s s i b l e. I'm sure Mr Flynn is a good guy with good intentions, but the way he writes the dialogue in Frontiers feels so dry, plain and to the point. Most of the character interactions with Frontiers goes along the lines of: Amy, Tails and Knuckles: "Man, I used to have *\*insert character flaw\** I sure wish I could do the things that you do, Sonic." Sonic: "Then do it." Amy, Tails and Knuckles: "Okay I will, thank you Sonic, you're so cool."
And the flashbacks were a bad thing too
So, what about The Murder of Sonic the Hedgehog, written by Ian Mutchler instead of Ian Flynn and the IDW stuff by Evan Stanley? Was the characterization better in that than Flynn's IDW stuff, Frontiers and Dream Team?
StH and Frontiers want to be more mature and edgy, but fail at it and made each game corny (StH still did it better)
So where did Sonic Adventures 1 and 2 fare as being mature and edgy stories?
they aren't mature and edgy
So, what about The Murder of Sonic the Hedgehog, written by Ian Mutchler instead of Ian Flynn and the IDW stuff by Evan Stanley? Was the characterization better in that than Flynn's IDW stuff, Frontiers and Dream Team?
I never said anything about Murder of Sonic the Hedgehog, anyways that’s not a canon game
So, are there any good canon Sonic stories (either games or comics) or even writers after 2010? It's not like the Pontaff stuff was any better.
The Sonic Channel things where Sonic and another character interacts with each other, the Japanese scripts for the 2010 games (weren’t completely fixed but better) and Runners which had no Pontac and Graff involved
It doesn't bother me too much.Sage is an OK character,but it kinda downplays Eggmans more...atrocious qualities