So much Kool-Aid flows through legitimate media analysis from Americans as well who slowly realize the Empire is America and then decide it must therefore actually be good. It creates a form of conservative-to-Empire-to-fascist pipeline in the Star Wars fandom.
https://screenrant.com/star-wars-reasons-galactic-empire-darth-vader-actually-good-guys/
https://www.eightieskids.com/surprising-reasons-why-the-empire-were-actually-star-wars-good-guys/
https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/1881387/the-case-for-the-empire-2/
https://fandomwire.com/star-wars-10-reasons-the-empire-was-a-force-for-good/
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/act-four/wp/2015/10/29/the-destruction-of-alderaan-was-completely-justified/
https://whatculture.com/film/star-wars-10-reasons-the-galactic-empire-wasnt-as-bad-as-everyone-thinks
[Here's](https://www.thedailybeast.com/why-conservatives-love-the-galactic-empire) an article I found looking for these that addresses the phenomenon.
This was always a VERY crummy take by Lucas. In real life it’s fairly common that the guérilla, the rebel, the underdog, IS the bad guy who craves totalitarian control. Look at ISIS, the Confederacy, the Provisional IRA (the post-1970 kind in Northern Ireland), Mao’s CCP, and yes, the Viet Cong as backed by Hanoi. They’re not truly out to un-rig the deck, just to stack it in a different order to enrich themselves.
They start in a worse position, with weaker public and material support. Not primarily because they’re oppressed — but because their system and worldview is terrible. They can gain ground and score victories where the status quo regime falters from complacency, corruption, and incompetence (while still not being nearly so terrible).
The Sith embody this on steroids, having to stay in the shadows with an official membership of *two* for a millenium until the ruling govt was caught completely off guard by their hostile takeover. It’s long been a point of controversy and even mockery just how badly the Jedi/Republic had to screw up for that to happen.
The OT isn’t a Vietnam allegory — the *Umbara arc* is. Yes, the Republic is hindered by its own blunt force approach and callous commanders, but you never question that they ARE ultimately the good guys. Not perfect, but good. Thankfully neither Nixon nor LBJ, for all their flaws, ever spent decades as a Communist sleeper agent before declaring themselves dictator.
A lot of real-world rebels look more like Saw’s Partisans and the CIS than the Jedi and Rebel Alliance.
Also possible because it was filmed at Elstree Studios and the majority of actors tend to have posh accents as they are the ones who have the money and background to get into acting. And George didn’t bother to ask them to do a different accent as he had other things on his mind.
The only reason all of the empire had British actors is because ALL of the American film industry compare the British to evil villains. And the empire was always compared to nazi Germany, hence the nazi uniforms.
Dude, learn your history.
- Brits used to tie Indian men to the front of cannons and then fire them in order to deter any resistance to their colonization of India.
- Brits got China hooked on opium because they didn’t want to pay China’s prices on tea, and then used China’s resistance to the opioid crisis as an excuse to declare war.
- After establishing colonies, like Canada, the British began a system of systemically eradicating any Indigenous culture, languages, and history.
British Empire is ungodly evil, and while the Nazis are no better, they aren’t any worse when you look at things objectively. Only reason they get demonized is because they tried to colonize fellow whites, which is a no-no.
We don’t. Obviously you’re not going to find a monolith that represents everybody, but the majority of the time the things that you are being told you can’t be doing is violating other human’s rights, or using our tax dollars for things that are non-essential services.
I’m thinking rolling back roe v wade, restricting voting rights, banning books, pulling resources for transgender youth, or limiting what teachers can teach. I’m sure you have your opinions on these things, but as far as I can tell that’s a government restricting freedoms based on a certain subset’s beliefs, which doesn’t sound like a small government to me. None of those things are impeding on someone else’s freedoms or using extra tax dollars (unless you really start splitting hairs). I would argue the first steps to a fascist state are taking away rights/freedoms, which to me seems like exactly what’s happening.
Ah a white liberal who thinks black people are too stupid to get a drivers license and voter ID is restricting them. Just admit you want illegals to vote 😂
Maybe we should do away with needing an ID to buy alcohol while we’re at it 🤣
You white liberals are the most subconsciously racist fucking people out there. Even Malcolm X said you white liberals are trash. What Biden say? Poor kids can be just as smart as white kids? Oh damn didn’t know there was no such thing as poor white kids. Oh you don’t vote for grandpa Joe you not black? Yeah sorry, but the whole hood waking up cracker.
I think minimum wage workers are too busy working to get to the polls on voting day. You can make all the personal attacks you want, but you didn’t even address my point
The empire so cool they have badass uniforms and u/revanfucker88 said that in the books the death star is actually to fight aliens and not to commit genocide
Which is funny because the original Death Star would be horribly ineffective against the Yuuzhan Vong. It takes too long to charge and recharge the superlaser, hitting capital ships would be a waste. Now, the second Death Star on the other hand, that one we’ve seen snipe capital ships. Still dumb tho.
Ouch. Except I dont think the Empire's ideology is against women. All that is important is whether or not you are a true believer. Fascist systems tend to be that way.
Legends Empire was also misogynistic on top of everything else, which was hammered on any time the rare female Imperial, like Daala or Isard showed up, to make them more impressive by succeedong in a sexist ideology. I suspect that was just taking the almost complete lack of women actors in the original movies and trying to explain it. The newer stuff definitely doesn't give that vibe, because the cast is more diverse
Ever since I was a kid I rooted for the empire purely because they look cool and the rebels look goofy af. Now I root for America to dominate 3rd world countries because our gear looks dope
Doesn’t help that the empire was slowly made more agreeable and the old republic more corrupt over the years of expanded universe.
The only difference is that the good guys aren’t in charge so the bad stuff that people in charge always do isn’t being attributed to them.
It is kinda what fascists do though. The Nazis stole a lot of the coolest symbols, iconography and design on purpose - they know how to get people on board. Their uniforms were designed to be intimidating, and intimidating is cool. The propaganda posters and art was stolen from the communists. Not just the Nazis though of course, all Britain’s mottos are Latin. Britannia is a Roman female warrior. Lions aren’t British either.
What should be remembered though is *all* of the above is propaganda to hide out deeply dysfunctional fascism really is. They look put together but from the inside it’s just people scared for their lives, high on drugs and mismanaging resources all on the name of upholding the ‘idea’ that they know what they’re doing.
It’s just a shame that a lot of saps fall for it, especially with the history this world has.
Tbf they only manufactured the uniforms, they didn’t design them. The same way Porsche didn’t design the tanks, they just manufactured them and the engines.
Regardless the CEOs of those companies were still Nazi scumbags all the same.
>The same way Porsche didn’t design the tanks, they just manufactured them and the engines.
Porsche very much [designed tanks](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/VK_45.01_(P)) during the war, they just weren't very good at it. Most of their designs weren't adopted.
To piggyback off of your last point, the sleek, trim suits you often see in propaganda reels were exclusively worn by high ranking officers who had their suits made custom by boutique tailors with access to the patterns. The rank and file officers would be wearing cheap mass produced uniforms that were often ill fitting and boxy, especially towards the end of the war as production standards slipped.
I mean people also generally like it when villans are intimidating, making the villans intentionally lame and stupid out of a fear of that would be silly imo and would make for weak stories. Also you can say that the empire is based off ameirca, but the aesthetics and actual text have them way closer to nazi germany and imperial England. I think you could say partly based and the Disney version of the empire is closer to that, but the og movies saying there singlehandedly inspired by america is stretching it a bit. It almost comes across like Lucas post hoc trying to make the story more relevant to modern times to sound smarter. If the empire was meant to be america, he didn't do a very good job actually making them similar. Kind of a cop out giving them nazi uniforms and British accents.
Yeah Lucas based the galactic civil war as the Vietnam war so the US fit the Empire’s roll in the war for his universe but it’s very clear the actual empire’s aesthetics designs were based on the Nazis and then using all the officers as British men to drive hone in the Imperial vibes
But the sith also inevitably become enslaved to the pursuit of more and more power because unless your forgo your attachments (like a Jedi), you’re still chained to something or someone.
It's quite literally meant to be the US during Vietnam according to George. Palpatine is Nixon, the rebels are the Vietcong, Alderaan is Cambodia. Later, in the prequels, Anakin is Bush and Palpatine is Cheney.
There are other empires on Earth other than the US, so it's easier to see the parallels to the empires the audiences remember most. And a lot of Americans are uncomfortable with the idea that all of the Empire's evil can just be shit America does. Also, the Empire dresses like Nazis because Empire bad and Nazis are the most obvious visual identifier of bad.
I’m almost positive that prequels thing is bullshit that was dreamed up after the prequels had already been written. Order 66 is a blatant holocaust fictionalization, Palpatine is heavily based on WW2 era authoritarians, and anakin and obi wan are based on tragic mythological archetypes (Achilles/Phoenix, Macbeth/Banquo, Lucifer/Michael, etc.)
The idea that “the bad guys are based on this ONE specific group and/or person” has been thrown around as propaganda for one side or the other for decades. Same applies to a bunch of franchises. Wouldn’t be shocked if you could find someone using this idea to defend ISIS
It is first and foremost inspired by the Nazis. Vaders helmet is a straight up sci-fi version of a Stahlhelm. Their need to put humanity over aliens and them wanting control over the entire galaxy is also very much inspired by the Nazi ideology.
I find it wild you think this is about the U.S. or Great Britain.
I would love a show where the Empire is the protagonist that plays on this side of the "fandom". Have the lead up seem to be everything these guys hate - female minority protagonist, for example. Then have the first few episodes completely play into their ideology - make them see the show as the "anti-woke". Only to flip everything by the last few episodes so they feel cheated.
Although an Empire show would be great even without addressing them. Exploring things like how Palpatine designed the Imperial hierarchy to encourage hate amongst ranks.
That's right, all 2 of them.
And neither leia nor Padme were more than just "oh Crap, we need a female Love intrest in our wacky space adventure"
They never were the lead, y'know what i'm sayin'?
**Politics in Star Wars:** “A secret fascist leader sowed a war against two factions in order create a fascist government. The leader uses the previous wars’ fallout to sow a narrative that the peaceful Jedi religion is secretly evil and controlling everything. This hatred & fear of the Jedi religion is used to justify their horrific acts of evil. Even when they’re defeated, the fascist ideology still lives in the form of a rogue sect of avid followers that are aided by a contingency plan to allow them to stage a coup to overthrow the last standing democracy of the galaxy.”
**What Star Wars fans think Politics are:** “Women? Gays even?!”
They see any criticism of entertainment like this as a personal attack on their ideological worldview. The show SHOULD be good because it's got all the elements that make them nod. So anyone who doesn't like it is automatically a BAD PERSON.
They don’t understand that the problem is if you think about these two pictures being the plot for their respective times. 2020 Star Wars plot is “we put a female in it”. If it had some of the plot on the left, people wouldn’t care. Amazing how many sheep think this meme is the problem. Just fall in line with what the Disney Empire tells them to think. The irony.
Yea it's funny because most star wars fan love Princess Leia. She's been the leading female in star wars since the beginning. But let's all try to forget about her. Star wars fans don't hate Acolyte because of the female roles. They hate it because of the garbage writing, the horrible recons, and the contradicting facts they present about well established lore. Whoever wrote this dribble has never watched the original star wars movies, and has no concept about how the Jedi operate.
I don't think the writing is bad, just not where it should be. I also believe that as fans we were so spoiled with other good storylines that when one comes out some people don't like, they act like the world is ending.
Also this is totally how the jedi act, they always have. If you played Knights of The Old Republic, the jedi council literally mindwipes someone to do their bidding specifically. The jedi aren't always right, as a matter of fact they are often wrong. Their hubris is what lead to the Sith Empire attacking and sacking Coruscant in the Old Republic as well as Sidious literally hiding right under their noses. They were blinded by the idea that they were untouchable, and the High Republic is a time that highlights that sentiment. Media literacy is at an all time low and it really disappoints me people claim bad writing when they don't understand the material themselves.
The Old Republic was also canonized some time ago, they just haven't gone into specifics with it, so I am still using it as reference for the lore in this post.
Yes I'm very familiar with Kotor. It's my favorite star wars game. The Jedi did mind wipe Revan, which was a mistake in hindsight actually. But as a practice they did not take children above the age of 4 usually from their parents. This is because of the emotional attachment children develop with their parents. Even with Anakin, the only reason the council agreed to let Obi Wan train him was because Obi threatened to leave the order and train him regardless. I assure you I understand the material, I believe the idiots who wrote this show definitely have no grasp. They are trying to liken the Jedi with the the police. Aka the jedi are sick with the power they have acquired and are now using it for their own plans. The Jedi are most definitely not always right and I think that was the point of Kotor and Clone wars. The Jedi are not supposed to be soliders, they were supposed to be teachers, monks, diplomats, and peace keepers. The idea that the Jedi during the "Golden Age of the Republic" were kidnapping older children for their ranks when there was no pressing need for them is misguided.
This seems to be a one off instance though as far as we can tell. It doesn't seem that they are casually taking older children, but that they desired to test Osha and Mae and let them decide if they wanted to be jedi. Also the jedi keeping an eye on a sect of Force Witches is definitely something they would do to ensure that group didn't fall to the dark side, and in a misguided way that may have been using the girls as leverage. As we both agreed upon, the jedi definitely make some terrible decisions, and I think this show is just giving us an example of that poor decision making. I still agree that the writing isn't great, but I will reserve my judgment until I have watched the full show so that I have the entire picture before just calling it bad.
I'm glad to hear KOTOR is one of your favorite games, it was such a big thing for me to sit on my father's lap at the family computer and play it with him, and now going back and playing it all these years later makes me think of those times. I suppose it makes me sad to know people are so quick to argue instead of have a discussion about the stuff we love, and I'm glad that you and I are able to keep a civil conversation.
Yes sir we are all fans here. No reason to be mad at each other. Everyone has different opinions about this expansive world. I am a pessimist at heart so I'm already judging this project a failure. I've been burned by Disney Star wars too many times now to be understanding with them. With the amount of money and time they put into this project, what we got doesn't really stack up. But you are right, maybe the last half of this show will make up for the beginning? I doubt it, but I'm glad there are doe eyed people out there with hope.
Disney should keep the fuck away from the old republic and especially kotor. Disney is like king Midas but their hands turn everything to shit. The old republic is the only piece of Star Wars media that hasn’t been tarnished yet.
Disney gave us some of the best pieces of Star Wars media in the Clone Wars series, Bad Batch, Rebels, Andor, and Mandalorian. All are awesome stories, but people just wanna say, "But Disney bad", just because they simply don't enjoy Star Wars anymore. Hating on Star Wars doesn't make you a fan, it just makes you a genuine hater. If there were genuine criticisms like with the Sequels and their poor writing that's fine, but most of the above projects I listed had a few hit or miss episodes and the rest was great.
I am a Star Wars fan, which means I enjoy Star Wars and that means all of it, even if it isn't always the best written. Acting as though Star Wars before Disney was infallible is also not something I will listen to, because they were campy and had poor writing at times too because George was really bad at writing dialogue.
I disagree
Clone wars was before the Disney‘s takeover, rebels wasn‘t as good as clone wars, bad batch was mediocre and got worse the longer it went on - so did the Mandalorian - and Andor was bloody perfect, gotta give you that one, or Disney, rather.
But Andor was only as good as it was because both Kathleen Kennedy and Dave Filony were not involved whatsoever. In fact, it was made by a guy who dislikes Star Wars but who had a clear structure and story for a show in mind.
On a different note, saying other Star Wars media was badly written/acted doesn’t make Disney Star Wars better. Hell, the prequels were a mess, no doubt, but they at least respected the world of Star Wars and expanded on it. Without them we wouldn’t have any of the shows you just mentioned. Disney hasn’t been able to produce anything like that in the decade they had this franchise.
I’m not a hater, I enjoy it if it’s good but most of what they made was utter garbage. If you can pallet any of that nonsense, good for you. I have accepted the fact it won’t be getting better from here on out. I’m absolutely apathetic to whatever happens, like the acolyte. I know it’s bad and so do many others but I don’t go on hating people for enjoying it. However, if a post pops up that is as stupid as this one, I will voice my opinion.
In the words of Kreia:"Apathy is death“ and so is Star Wars for me, dead.
Edit: furthermore, nobody has to enjoy every piece of a franchise to call themselves a fan. That is a questionable mentality when engaging with any piece of media.
You’re really coping about that 16% review score aren’t you? The show is shit, people don’t care if the main character is a woman, fans love Ashoka, and Princess Leia, and Padme, and they would enjoy a fantasy sci fi show about female characters being sisters. Arcane was a big hit.
Everyone is laughing at you desperately defending, power of one, power of two, power of low reviews!!!!
No let’s be clear, even if Star Wars was awful the anti woke idiots would still be bad. That responsibility is entirely on them and not at all a reflection of how good or bad Star Wars is.
To be fair, the actual themes of the movies went over a lot of people's heads then and they still do now. Like clockwork, every few months star wars twitter rediscovers that one clip where George Lucas says that the rebels were inspired by the Viet Cong and the Empire represented American imperialism, and they're all shocked for some reason.
I don’t have a problem with the characters and even the space witch birth, they could make it to where said knowledge was lost and then anakin was born, the problem with the acolyte is that it’s horribly written, the show has good qualities, soundtrack, the action scenes are amazing and the inclusion of more aliens is also welcomed since it feels like there’s more humans in aliens, despite what a new hope and other movies show. But the writing makes no sense, it’s trying to do too much but too little at the same time, there’s telling but not showing that these characters are great and powerful, there’s no proper pacing and things seem way to convenient just to keep the plot going which other Star Wars properties do suffer from too I will add, not just the acolyte, and honestly the dialogue between characters is just awful, the fallout 4 dialogue options have more heart and soul than this crap, but this is what happens when you hire someone who’s not even a writer, but an assistant instead of an actual writer, don’t get me wrong the ideas are somewhat interesting but she can’t back them up with writing and it makes everything fall short, I don’t want to be “that guy” but I feel like she was hired on as a diversity hire because the other writers of Star Wars have been all men but those films for the sequels were botched by Kennedy anywho and it’s pretty obvious.
Do you really think , fans hate acolyte because of the main role being female ? Then why didn’t anyone hate rogue one ?
We can discuss the writing, the filming , the lore , the story or any main function that gives merit to a show , that is if you don’t call me a sexist, homophobic in response to any logical flaw i bring up
Uhh, I dont think anyone was complaining when Princess Leia was written as a female with strong leadership and diplomacy skills. It’s the fact that many new characters, male and female, lack complexity. They need strengths AND flaws
I just wish Star wars was about Star wars again. Fuck the Jedi and high Republic give us more andor. That was the last real good Star wars. Gritty, mature make the empire a threat not some stupid goofy shit like it was in the sequel trilogy. We don't need lesbian space witches we already got the witches of dathomir. Let's get people who actually know star wars to make Star wars. Bring back the gate keeping. If you don't know the lore then go work on something else it's time to get back to form
Yeah haha let’s pretend it’s bigotry and make excuses for the bad writing. It’s not like we have precedents of strong female characters that had their own storyline’s that the fan base adored….. oh wait a fucking minute
Leia Skywalker, Ashoka Tano, Mara Jade Skywalker, Asajj Ventress, Bo-Katan Kryze, Hera Syndulla, Jen Erso, Darth Talon, Satele Shan, Bastila Shan and many others.
Pull your heads out of your ass. It’s bad writing. I’m all for more diversity in TV shows, I’m a white dude, I like having relatable characters and I feel like everyone should have the ability to easily relate. If we need to do that with race and sex representation then not a problem.
But you don’t get to pretend you are making good media just because you are appealing to a certain race, minority, sex or culture.
If you make a shit piece of media then just own up to it and do better next time but these so called creatives in charge of Star Wars currently are fuelled by rabid people like you lot that seem to want nothing more than to cause division. You guys are more to blame than people like Kathleen who are actually making crap.
In acolyte for example they have a fucking fire in space, which is possible but the gas source that is powering the flame would come from one spot, it should look like a flame thrower. Even it’s not safe to do practically it’s not like we don’t have CGI. Instead they opted for a standard open flame that is actively reacting to the oxygen in the air even though the scene is set in space. It would have been cheap but you still could of wrote around this if you had managed to somehow create a bubble of atmosphere but you still keep the main character in a suit meaning there isn’t one.
The majority of people aren’t upset because if diversity or female characters, we are upset because this kind of half assed work can somehow pass for good writing and it makes the franchise we love and care about look like shit.
To be fair, there’s always been unrealistic stuff in space, and there is undoubtedly bigoted people who hate Disney Star Wars because it’s diverse. There’s a reason why the actors keep getting hate spewed their way. Haven’t seen the acolyte yet so I can’t speak to its quality
On the space thing, not really, at least as far as I’m aware but if you have a source I’m happy to check it out. Everything in Star Wars is usually pretty consistent, the Death Star for instance gets to have an explosion because it had a pressurised atmosphere. You don’t need to be scientifically inclined to know this stuff.
I won’t argue the point of bigotry with you but I think the main issue is about half the fan base are being branded bigots because they don’t like the absolutely god awful writing and production quality of the Disney Star Wars stuff.
I mean if the general thought process is the fans racist then why did they rally behind Finn when he was done dirty in the new sequel trilogy? Same deal with Ashoka, if people were really using bigotry as the deciding factor then why do people still enjoy the end of the clone wars where Ashoka takes a main character role?
It’s easier for people to cry and be upset over nothing or fabricated hate than it is for them to grow up, act like a emotionally mature adult and accept when they are wrong.
It annoyed me with the Warhammer 40K female Custodes retcon, I was having a discussion in the Grimdank page and had this absolute chad hit me this the line “so you don’t like Necrons then.” This was because Necrons as they are today are predominantly because of a retcon. Even though this guy proved me wrong and i was kinda upset I didn’t know as much as I thought about one of my favourite franchises. I still apologised, I still told them they were right and I gave them props for making a good and consistent argument without insulting me like a lot of the other people on that sub were.
People just need to learn how to take responsibility for their actions…
Sorry for the late reply, but several OT movies have fire in space. The most notable is the SSD in ROTJ, which to be fair was hated by fans at the time.
The problem with bigotry is every time it’s called out by Disney the fan reaction isn’t “yeah, that’s fucked up, fuck those guys” but “how dare you!” And it’s not helped by the gatekeeping crowd not making that something they gatekeep.
Honestly my only issue with the custodes retcon was GW not adding “we fucked up not adding them before, even though multiple authors asked for them, so we’re fixing our mistake” kinda like they did with the Necrons. Then they owned up to the fact that fucked up by depriving people of “Your Dudes” with the lore
See the problem is that this is how normal people react when branded as bigots for no reasons.
Outside from the list I just provided of strong females with good story’s that are loved by the fan base. What about John Boyega, the fan base loves him and hated the way his character was relegated to the side lines because of how good he was. I’m sure there were a few bigots who got upset but there is a bigot minority in almost every group and they don’t speak for the majority.
Most of us are sick of being called Bigots and Misogynists when we very clearly are not, we just agree with the poor quality of writing and lore inconsistencies.
The guys over in Critical Drinkers were having a chat about this earlier, it’s a lot easier to change someone’s views when you don’t insult them. You have been probably the most respectful interaction I have had in this sub so far. But even you seem to be pushing this idea of the majority of the fan base gatekeeping for bigoted and misogynistic reasons.
And I have seen you guys like to pile onto Star Wars Theory a lot but conviently one of the biggest and most vocal supporters of the “Star Wars Fans Bad” argument that I have seen online is Vaush. A person known for defending CP and admitting to have a Horse Cock Fetish. Strange how I have never seen you guys try to put that fire out before it got this big.
It’s already hard for us to take baseless accusations seriously but you really don’t make it hard to undermine credibility either, at least with the public figure heads your side is stuck with.
The issue isn't with women actors, it's with dogshit scripts
Obi wan for example, most incoherent mess I've ever seen that just continues to get worse the further in you go
This is gaslighting and a genuinely unintelligent meme
No one is complaining about women in the show. Fans are upset because the story is weak and breaks established lore, the characters are one dimensional, and the script is nothing but exposition. It's a bad show because it's a bad show
I only like the Empire because they look cool, but I am very much left-wing irl bcuz I don’t let a fictional universe with space wizards dictate my politics.
You know, I always see 10x more people complaining about ignorant fans than I ever see ignorant fans. Are they all just in a worse echo chamber than the ones we’re in so we just don’t notice?
Star wars fans hate lady in space show, except for all the ladies in the space show that they liked.
Obviously there's a qualitative difference between one lady and another lady, so what is it?
Is it skin colour?
Maybe, but unlikely. The fandom seemed to enjoy Sloane and hated Rey, so clearly that isn't the quality that matters.
Is it that they're strong and independent?
Probably not, given how Leia lead the Rebellion, Sloane was an admiral and the slew of fairly well liked Jedi like Ahsoka, Shaak-ti, Ventress, Hera, Sabine, etc. Some of these portrayals were even disliked in some shows but not others.
So what's different about the representation of women that are disliked vs the representation of women that are liked?
Most of the time it comes down to a couple of factors.
First and foremost is writing: if a character is badly written/executed, then it doesn't matter how "cool" they are, everybody will dislike them.
Second is whether the character exists as a vehicle to preach at the audience - which unfortunately does seem to be the case in a fair number of the poorer portrayals of women in Star Wars. What I mean by that is the motive, or at least perceived motive, for putting the character in the show to begin with. If the intent is to go "aha women can be cool, too!" then it will almost always fail, not because women can't be cool but because the creator is trying so hard to make their character look cool that they fail to write anything compelling. The character can't have faults like a normal character does. They can't make mistakes or fail in their objectives because that isn't cool and they gotta be powerful and cool and the best at everything. It doesn't help that we've had characters like that for the last thirty years at least and for a lot of people every new iteration being greeted as "this is the first time a woman X" makes it feel tedious AF - though a lot of that is unfortunately on the coverage of the product rather than anything from the creators.
In other words... bad writing/execution, and one of the many red flags that signal that a character is going to be badly written/executed.
So, yeah. Don't get me wrong, some people are gonna hate for stupid reasons and might genuinely just hate women - but *most* of them just seem to hate terrible writing and have recognised that when something is promoted as diverse or feminist it is extremely likely to have terrible writing because entertainment is not their objective. If it was entertaining they'd lead with that, rather than trying to get you to watch it for ideological reasons.
TBH I think the whole "everyone who hates this thing must be a fascist/sexist/racist" attitude is just tedious projection. Much like the projection that everything with a diverse cast is "woke" and all that nonsense. Just treat people like individuals.
Yeah. That's clearly the problem they have. It's definitely not them being poorly written characters or anything. It's 100% just that they have a vagina. There have never been beloved women characters ever in the franchise. George Lucas himself definitely hasn't called out how stupid and incorrect of an argument this is in the first place. You're sooooo right on the money my man it's crazy.
Idk about anyone complaining about women being in Star Wars, it seems more to me that people are complaining about shitty writing and having showrunners/producers/actors who don’t have the first fucking clue about the setting they’re trying to tell a story in. There’s an interview with one of the actors and he keeps saying *anakin* blew up the Death Star. Like, just tell me you havnt watched the movies bro. Shits honestly pathetic.
Couldn’t possibly have anything to do with the writing, no, hundreds of thousands of people who loved Princess Leia and Ashoka all before Disney took over, they’re just sexist.
Yea, how I really miss how Star Wars had only white mans in the movies in the good old days!
I remember these white-man only, no woman (god forbid), or negroes in my space fiction motion-pictures with such great fondness!
To all other real Star Wars fan here, which is your favorite white-man-only Star Wars movie?
OP is overshooting the mark. There are and have always been some genuine pieces of shit out there who are just mad that WAHMENS are in their movies and they can go bang a cactus, but a lot of fans are acting in good faith and are perfectly right to be upset. But the writers of modern Star Wars are (among many other problems) generally too focused on cheep, low effort inclusion (often under the false assertion that it wasn't there already). Shit like the half second Lesbian kiss in TROS is worthless and insulting, and people making claims like "X is the first female villain" in 2024 is ignorant as all hell and sweeps dozens of incredible antagonists under the rug.
It is absolutely true that ideals of revolution, equality, anti imperialism, as well as understanding of governance and politics often take a back seat in the modern shows and movies. The OT and Prequels were not perfect at this but they were much better than now. The New Republic is worthless and uninspiring, and watching anything set during the imperial period is blighted by the idea that everything the characters do is basically in vain.
**This has to come with a ton of caveats:** inclusion and even race swapping are absolutely not bad inherently (Shawshank is awesome and Freeman killed it). No matter anyones demographics or ideology illogical writing is still a problem, nothing is going to be fixed by making everyone straight white men. Disney is ultimately a company that is trying (badly) to make money and not socially engineer anything. And more inclusion is not the direct or sole cause of less idealistic politics.
And to reiterate: the "wokeness is destroying everything, M-SHE-U" people are out there, they absolutely f\*\*\*ing suck, but you have to look past them to the rest of the fans. Otherwise all we can do is shriek at each other from across a chasm and achieve nothing. [Sheev Talks](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=McR_P9izG5M) \[I promise this video is short of half an hour\] is really good if you want a perspective that's critical of modern modern Star Wars but is very firmly outside the "wokeness bad" camp. While not being a Star Wars guy, [Gaming Magic 13](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rlKvQxtlrQ8) also makes [long form videos](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r8OdcH3-uf0) that hit on a lot of the same types of arguments about writing itself rather then culture war whining, I strongly recommend him as well.
Star Wars fans in the 1970s: Fun, good stories about constants of the human condition are fun and good.
Star Wars fans in the 2020s: This story and its execution is garbage but I must spend money on its behalf and applaud it publicly because the producers have stuck a linguistically-gymnastical byline into the press and distribution stating that disliking said garbage is ackshually me being on the wrong side of culturo-ethical history for some reason.
This is so hilarious. Do you think anyone cares there is a lady in it? Lots of amazing shows have ladies in it. The writing is horrific, the acting amateur, and it’s all round an awful production. Imagine living life refusing to accept criticism and blaming it on being a lady.
I don't care about the mc being a lady... I'm more irritated by bad acting, bad writing, bad action scenes... the force is like icing on a cake, I want it there... but I want more cake than icing
I think it's tragic that the discourse around this show is so toxic that I haven't seen any good jokes about the very solid comedic situation of a universe with no hand rails and a main character named OSHA. I've yet to hear a single OSHA violation joke.
and now what's left of star wars fans is room temperature IQ mouth breathers who defend a monopolistic corporation and eat whatever slop is produced for them without question
The Is bull shit, no body thinks thos, te have issues with things like, why did chewy ignore Leia at the end of TFA, why did Luke's metal hand disappear with him in TLJ, Doesn't the holdo maneuver break space combat in the star wars universe?, since when could Yoda summon lightning and can all force ghost do this? Could they not help in the fight against evil? Where did all the troops needed to man the final order fleet come from, and if it was so difficult to get to exigul then how did they get some many people there?
Calling people who criticize this abomination of a star wars show fascists who “unknowingly align” with a sith empire is just fucking hilarious. People who say this crap are so out of touch with reality and, at risk of being a huge nerd, don’t know shit about star wars.
It's not that I don't like women. I don't like poorly written CHARA TERS. Men or women.
I also didn't like Obi-Wan, or Solo. I Didn't hate the actors or setting at all, I just didn't like the writing.
You have people whining about having a black/female lead, sure, but don't lump proper criticism in with the sexists and racists please.
Disney is playing you guys. They're using the culture war to deflect criticism. Nobody gives a fuck that the leads are women. The only reason people are upset is cause it's been an almost not stop shit factory.
They use inclusion and DEI shit to pay themselves on the back and not do any real work. They think that because they put a woman on screen, and have a woman director that's all they need to do. The series sucks because the people making it suck. Not because of gender or sexual orientation.
Sorry 1970s- great stories. Hero’s journey and redemption. Common inspiring themes throughout human history. 2020s Poorly written stories. Focus current culture identity and race. Written by people with an agenda NOT a universal vision. 1970s were stories that touched everyone no matter identity or race. Personal grievances have a place in movies but not these.
You know what I feel is also not helping with modern Star Wars and its “fans”? A lot the modern Star Wars shit really doesn’t want to get into that political aspect the series has always been trying to make connections to and why the empire was meant to mirror a lot of what USA hegemonic power looked like that I will admit George only really scratched the surface of in the OT but now Disney cowers towards any kind of political provocation a lot of the imagery used in the OT tried to emphasize. That’s also not even getting to how Disney encourages this stuff in the little ways they erode at Star Wars transgressive nature to be more marketable like the infamous gay kiss that gets erased in the international cuts of rise of skywalker. The only piece of modern Star Wars media to embody what I feel the 1970’s era doge is talking about is Andor and is shocking in how anti authoritarian and anti fascist it decided to be to a degree of detail and thought about how it would reflect real world instances of imperialism and fascist governments in a way George never did. I think that’s mostly due to it being seen as a seemingly low importance series since it had barely any callbacks or major players in it to where that level of Disney scrutiny to make it sellable to everyone, even those weirdos who like the empire mind you, is gone but even then iirc Tony Gilroy and Diego Luna had to fight Disney on a lot of stuff for that series and why it took so long to come out because neither were willing to compromise their creative visions so honestly good on them, fuck Disney.
People hate modern star wars because it sucks, not because it has women in it. It's completely disingenuous to group all criticism as misogyny, and it is exactly because you disallow any criticism that your franchise sucks now. Do you see people complaining about a woman lead in Alien or Terminator? No, because they're good.
A lot of Star Wars "fans" don't seem to realize that their ideology is actually most in line with the Empire.
So much Kool-Aid flows through legitimate media analysis from Americans as well who slowly realize the Empire is America and then decide it must therefore actually be good. It creates a form of conservative-to-Empire-to-fascist pipeline in the Star Wars fandom. https://screenrant.com/star-wars-reasons-galactic-empire-darth-vader-actually-good-guys/ https://www.eightieskids.com/surprising-reasons-why-the-empire-were-actually-star-wars-good-guys/ https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/1881387/the-case-for-the-empire-2/ https://fandomwire.com/star-wars-10-reasons-the-empire-was-a-force-for-good/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/act-four/wp/2015/10/29/the-destruction-of-alderaan-was-completely-justified/ https://whatculture.com/film/star-wars-10-reasons-the-galactic-empire-wasnt-as-bad-as-everyone-thinks [Here's](https://www.thedailybeast.com/why-conservatives-love-the-galactic-empire) an article I found looking for these that addresses the phenomenon.
Im pretty sure alot of these are tongue-in-cheek articles that go along with the fandom… I think you’re reading too much into it
It's [Poe's Law](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poe%27s_law?wprov=sfla1) in action.
The Empire isn't America, it is closer to Britain and Nazi Germany.
George Lucas was pretty open about the Rebels being the VC and the Empire being the US, also he based Palpatine at least partially on Nixon
This was always a VERY crummy take by Lucas. In real life it’s fairly common that the guérilla, the rebel, the underdog, IS the bad guy who craves totalitarian control. Look at ISIS, the Confederacy, the Provisional IRA (the post-1970 kind in Northern Ireland), Mao’s CCP, and yes, the Viet Cong as backed by Hanoi. They’re not truly out to un-rig the deck, just to stack it in a different order to enrich themselves. They start in a worse position, with weaker public and material support. Not primarily because they’re oppressed — but because their system and worldview is terrible. They can gain ground and score victories where the status quo regime falters from complacency, corruption, and incompetence (while still not being nearly so terrible). The Sith embody this on steroids, having to stay in the shadows with an official membership of *two* for a millenium until the ruling govt was caught completely off guard by their hostile takeover. It’s long been a point of controversy and even mockery just how badly the Jedi/Republic had to screw up for that to happen. The OT isn’t a Vietnam allegory — the *Umbara arc* is. Yes, the Republic is hindered by its own blunt force approach and callous commanders, but you never question that they ARE ultimately the good guys. Not perfect, but good. Thankfully neither Nixon nor LBJ, for all their flaws, ever spent decades as a Communist sleeper agent before declaring themselves dictator. A lot of real-world rebels look more like Saw’s Partisans and the CIS than the Jedi and Rebel Alliance.
Thats a terrible analogy. The vietcong were totalitarian communists who killed hundreds or thousands of their own people because they were disidents.
Talk to George about it, also the South Vietnamese government was no better if not worse
I didn't say they were good, but it's silly to portray the also totalitarian maniacs as good
It’s not about the ideology as much as it’s about the roles in the story
But Mercia bad
no, Return of the Jedi is well-known as George Lucas' commentary of the U.S. invading Vietnam and the Empire is very clearly the U.S in that scenario.
I know for a FACT that bro DID NOT compare Britain to NAZI FUCKING GERMANY
I meant the British Empire. There's a reason all the officers and coreworlders have posh accents.
I know for a FACT that bro DID NOT compare the British empire to NAZI FUCKING GERMANY
Empire was worse.
Also possible because it was filmed at Elstree Studios and the majority of actors tend to have posh accents as they are the ones who have the money and background to get into acting. And George didn’t bother to ask them to do a different accent as he had other things on his mind.
The only reason all of the empire had British actors is because ALL of the American film industry compare the British to evil villains. And the empire was always compared to nazi Germany, hence the nazi uniforms.
Dude, learn your history. - Brits used to tie Indian men to the front of cannons and then fire them in order to deter any resistance to their colonization of India. - Brits got China hooked on opium because they didn’t want to pay China’s prices on tea, and then used China’s resistance to the opioid crisis as an excuse to declare war. - After establishing colonies, like Canada, the British began a system of systemically eradicating any Indigenous culture, languages, and history. British Empire is ungodly evil, and while the Nazis are no better, they aren’t any worse when you look at things objectively. Only reason they get demonized is because they tried to colonize fellow whites, which is a no-no.
100 million died in man made famines by empire.
Go ahead and add this to the pile: https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2022/03/caroline-elkins-new-book-broadens-story-of-british-empire/
Conservatives aren’t the fascists. They’re the small government people. You guys are the fascists.
Why do the small government people want to tell everyone what they are and aren’t allowed to do all the time?
We don’t. Obviously you’re not going to find a monolith that represents everybody, but the majority of the time the things that you are being told you can’t be doing is violating other human’s rights, or using our tax dollars for things that are non-essential services.
I’m thinking rolling back roe v wade, restricting voting rights, banning books, pulling resources for transgender youth, or limiting what teachers can teach. I’m sure you have your opinions on these things, but as far as I can tell that’s a government restricting freedoms based on a certain subset’s beliefs, which doesn’t sound like a small government to me. None of those things are impeding on someone else’s freedoms or using extra tax dollars (unless you really start splitting hairs). I would argue the first steps to a fascist state are taking away rights/freedoms, which to me seems like exactly what’s happening.
Ah a white liberal who thinks black people are too stupid to get a drivers license and voter ID is restricting them. Just admit you want illegals to vote 😂 Maybe we should do away with needing an ID to buy alcohol while we’re at it 🤣 You white liberals are the most subconsciously racist fucking people out there. Even Malcolm X said you white liberals are trash. What Biden say? Poor kids can be just as smart as white kids? Oh damn didn’t know there was no such thing as poor white kids. Oh you don’t vote for grandpa Joe you not black? Yeah sorry, but the whole hood waking up cracker.
I think minimum wage workers are too busy working to get to the polls on voting day. You can make all the personal attacks you want, but you didn’t even address my point
[удалено]
💀dude what
The empire so cool they have badass uniforms and u/revanfucker88 said that in the books the death star is actually to fight aliens and not to commit genocide
That storyline was always stupid. Glad it got deleted with the EU.
Warhammer fans try not to turn everything else they like into indiscernible grimdark paste challenge (impossible).
I admit it is a fallacy. Yuzong Vhong are a neat concept though.
Which is funny because the original Death Star would be horribly ineffective against the Yuuzhan Vong. It takes too long to charge and recharge the superlaser, hitting capital ships would be a waste. Now, the second Death Star on the other hand, that one we’ve seen snipe capital ships. Still dumb tho.
I wonder how it would fight those aliens?
Or they do realize it and think that’s somehow a good thing
*WH40K fans have entered the chat*
Star Wars fans being too timid to admit they just want 40K.
You know damn well the empire would cream their pants for one Astartes.
Is it possible to not like acolyte and not like the empire? 
Ouch. Except I dont think the Empire's ideology is against women. All that is important is whether or not you are a true believer. Fascist systems tend to be that way.
Legends Empire was also misogynistic on top of everything else, which was hammered on any time the rare female Imperial, like Daala or Isard showed up, to make them more impressive by succeedong in a sexist ideology. I suspect that was just taking the almost complete lack of women actors in the original movies and trying to explain it. The newer stuff definitely doesn't give that vibe, because the cast is more diverse
Or a human
Ever since I was a kid I rooted for the empire purely because they look cool and the rebels look goofy af. Now I root for America to dominate 3rd world countries because our gear looks dope
Least radicalized SW fan
Doesn’t help that the empire was slowly made more agreeable and the old republic more corrupt over the years of expanded universe. The only difference is that the good guys aren’t in charge so the bad stuff that people in charge always do isn’t being attributed to them.
"We will be following your Twitter with great interest"
And Sith SW fans love giving into hate and anger
All people do, it's human nature.
But we’re supposed to try not to if we’re aware of it
Fr, they think Andor is about fighting a woke government
George fucked up making the imperial/sith aesthetic so cool, unironically tricked these idiots into liking fascism
It is kinda what fascists do though. The Nazis stole a lot of the coolest symbols, iconography and design on purpose - they know how to get people on board. Their uniforms were designed to be intimidating, and intimidating is cool. The propaganda posters and art was stolen from the communists. Not just the Nazis though of course, all Britain’s mottos are Latin. Britannia is a Roman female warrior. Lions aren’t British either. What should be remembered though is *all* of the above is propaganda to hide out deeply dysfunctional fascism really is. They look put together but from the inside it’s just people scared for their lives, high on drugs and mismanaging resources all on the name of upholding the ‘idea’ that they know what they’re doing. It’s just a shame that a lot of saps fall for it, especially with the history this world has.
> Their uniforms were designed to be intimidating, and intimidating is cool. ww2 was the largest hugo boss advertisement ever
Tbf they only manufactured the uniforms, they didn’t design them. The same way Porsche didn’t design the tanks, they just manufactured them and the engines. Regardless the CEOs of those companies were still Nazi scumbags all the same.
>The same way Porsche didn’t design the tanks, they just manufactured them and the engines. Porsche very much [designed tanks](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/VK_45.01_(P)) during the war, they just weren't very good at it. Most of their designs weren't adopted.
To piggyback off of your last point, the sleek, trim suits you often see in propaganda reels were exclusively worn by high ranking officers who had their suits made custom by boutique tailors with access to the patterns. The rank and file officers would be wearing cheap mass produced uniforms that were often ill fitting and boxy, especially towards the end of the war as production standards slipped.
I mean people also generally like it when villans are intimidating, making the villans intentionally lame and stupid out of a fear of that would be silly imo and would make for weak stories. Also you can say that the empire is based off ameirca, but the aesthetics and actual text have them way closer to nazi germany and imperial England. I think you could say partly based and the Disney version of the empire is closer to that, but the og movies saying there singlehandedly inspired by america is stretching it a bit. It almost comes across like Lucas post hoc trying to make the story more relevant to modern times to sound smarter. If the empire was meant to be america, he didn't do a very good job actually making them similar. Kind of a cop out giving them nazi uniforms and British accents.
Yeah Lucas based the galactic civil war as the Vietnam war so the US fit the Empire’s roll in the war for his universe but it’s very clear the actual empire’s aesthetics designs were based on the Nazis and then using all the officers as British men to drive hone in the Imperial vibes
I mean i like the idea of the sith and all the “passion is what brings true power” stuff, but palpy was just a fascist
But the sith also inevitably become enslaved to the pursuit of more and more power because unless your forgo your attachments (like a Jedi), you’re still chained to something or someone.
Issue is that they are passionate for oppression lol
The Sith are fascist when at full power tho lol like in swtor
Oh..
This is not true at all tbh. The salty ones have always existed and they’ve been enraged since RoTJ
That’s true. I’ve seen and heard so many times “there’s only 2 Star Wars movies” (meaning a new hope and empire)
Imagine not counting the speeder bike scene
Imagine not including possibly the best Star Wars film - the first 40 or so minutes of Jedi.
Since ESB. There are old idsues if Starlog Magazine where fans wrote in bitching about how it ruined Star Wars
The "fan" hate for Ewoks in some corners was immense.
I always found it wild that people don’t understand that the empire is literally a fusion of the British Imperialism and US foreign policy.
Don’t forget the Nazis…
Oh yeah them too lol
It's quite literally meant to be the US during Vietnam according to George. Palpatine is Nixon, the rebels are the Vietcong, Alderaan is Cambodia. Later, in the prequels, Anakin is Bush and Palpatine is Cheney. There are other empires on Earth other than the US, so it's easier to see the parallels to the empires the audiences remember most. And a lot of Americans are uncomfortable with the idea that all of the Empire's evil can just be shit America does. Also, the Empire dresses like Nazis because Empire bad and Nazis are the most obvious visual identifier of bad.
I’m almost positive that prequels thing is bullshit that was dreamed up after the prequels had already been written. Order 66 is a blatant holocaust fictionalization, Palpatine is heavily based on WW2 era authoritarians, and anakin and obi wan are based on tragic mythological archetypes (Achilles/Phoenix, Macbeth/Banquo, Lucifer/Michael, etc.) The idea that “the bad guys are based on this ONE specific group and/or person” has been thrown around as propaganda for one side or the other for decades. Same applies to a bunch of franchises. Wouldn’t be shocked if you could find someone using this idea to defend ISIS
sure, but also like. Newt gunray
It is first and foremost inspired by the Nazis. Vaders helmet is a straight up sci-fi version of a Stahlhelm. Their need to put humanity over aliens and them wanting control over the entire galaxy is also very much inspired by the Nazi ideology. I find it wild you think this is about the U.S. or Great Britain.
https://preview.redd.it/zpuyfar3ar6d1.jpeg?width=890&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=0af10ec37d84b9fb6d57ef4a9980e3a3283ff37f
I just find it funny that in a galaxy far far away they still have the same problems as us! Makes it so real and believable to me /s
I would love a show where the Empire is the protagonist that plays on this side of the "fandom". Have the lead up seem to be everything these guys hate - female minority protagonist, for example. Then have the first few episodes completely play into their ideology - make them see the show as the "anti-woke". Only to flip everything by the last few episodes so they feel cheated. Although an Empire show would be great even without addressing them. Exploring things like how Palpatine designed the Imperial hierarchy to encourage hate amongst ranks.
I mean, you could basically make the equivalent of Starship Troopers for Star Wars, though you'd have to somehow make it even more blunt.
Wasn't this the battlefront 2 campaign?
George Lucas=communism (based)
there's a difference between opposition to fascism and communism
[удалено]
I’m pretty sure in the first movie there are like 3 women total.
[удалено]
Start watching now and see if you count more women than it takes hours to watch them LOL
That's right, all 2 of them. And neither leia nor Padme were more than just "oh Crap, we need a female Love intrest in our wacky space adventure" They never were the lead, y'know what i'm sayin'?
Disagree. Both Leia and Padme had big lead role What about Jyn Erso? Ahsoka? She’s been around a while
**Politics in Star Wars:** “A secret fascist leader sowed a war against two factions in order create a fascist government. The leader uses the previous wars’ fallout to sow a narrative that the peaceful Jedi religion is secretly evil and controlling everything. This hatred & fear of the Jedi religion is used to justify their horrific acts of evil. Even when they’re defeated, the fascist ideology still lives in the form of a rogue sect of avid followers that are aided by a contingency plan to allow them to stage a coup to overthrow the last standing democracy of the galaxy.” **What Star Wars fans think Politics are:** “Women? Gays even?!”
Y'all genuinely don't know why people don't like Disney star wars do you?
They see any criticism of entertainment like this as a personal attack on their ideological worldview. The show SHOULD be good because it's got all the elements that make them nod. So anyone who doesn't like it is automatically a BAD PERSON.
Right, I don't think a majority of people would have any issues with diverse/progressive/whatever story lines provided they are GOOD.
Exactly
Starting to wonder if Disney pays people to post this crap
They don’t understand that the problem is if you think about these two pictures being the plot for their respective times. 2020 Star Wars plot is “we put a female in it”. If it had some of the plot on the left, people wouldn’t care. Amazing how many sheep think this meme is the problem. Just fall in line with what the Disney Empire tells them to think. The irony.
Give me a story with continuity instead of mocking the established lore. Andor was fantastic and all the ladies in it.
Yea it's funny because most star wars fan love Princess Leia. She's been the leading female in star wars since the beginning. But let's all try to forget about her. Star wars fans don't hate Acolyte because of the female roles. They hate it because of the garbage writing, the horrible recons, and the contradicting facts they present about well established lore. Whoever wrote this dribble has never watched the original star wars movies, and has no concept about how the Jedi operate.
I don't think the writing is bad, just not where it should be. I also believe that as fans we were so spoiled with other good storylines that when one comes out some people don't like, they act like the world is ending. Also this is totally how the jedi act, they always have. If you played Knights of The Old Republic, the jedi council literally mindwipes someone to do their bidding specifically. The jedi aren't always right, as a matter of fact they are often wrong. Their hubris is what lead to the Sith Empire attacking and sacking Coruscant in the Old Republic as well as Sidious literally hiding right under their noses. They were blinded by the idea that they were untouchable, and the High Republic is a time that highlights that sentiment. Media literacy is at an all time low and it really disappoints me people claim bad writing when they don't understand the material themselves. The Old Republic was also canonized some time ago, they just haven't gone into specifics with it, so I am still using it as reference for the lore in this post.
Yes I'm very familiar with Kotor. It's my favorite star wars game. The Jedi did mind wipe Revan, which was a mistake in hindsight actually. But as a practice they did not take children above the age of 4 usually from their parents. This is because of the emotional attachment children develop with their parents. Even with Anakin, the only reason the council agreed to let Obi Wan train him was because Obi threatened to leave the order and train him regardless. I assure you I understand the material, I believe the idiots who wrote this show definitely have no grasp. They are trying to liken the Jedi with the the police. Aka the jedi are sick with the power they have acquired and are now using it for their own plans. The Jedi are most definitely not always right and I think that was the point of Kotor and Clone wars. The Jedi are not supposed to be soliders, they were supposed to be teachers, monks, diplomats, and peace keepers. The idea that the Jedi during the "Golden Age of the Republic" were kidnapping older children for their ranks when there was no pressing need for them is misguided.
This seems to be a one off instance though as far as we can tell. It doesn't seem that they are casually taking older children, but that they desired to test Osha and Mae and let them decide if they wanted to be jedi. Also the jedi keeping an eye on a sect of Force Witches is definitely something they would do to ensure that group didn't fall to the dark side, and in a misguided way that may have been using the girls as leverage. As we both agreed upon, the jedi definitely make some terrible decisions, and I think this show is just giving us an example of that poor decision making. I still agree that the writing isn't great, but I will reserve my judgment until I have watched the full show so that I have the entire picture before just calling it bad. I'm glad to hear KOTOR is one of your favorite games, it was such a big thing for me to sit on my father's lap at the family computer and play it with him, and now going back and playing it all these years later makes me think of those times. I suppose it makes me sad to know people are so quick to argue instead of have a discussion about the stuff we love, and I'm glad that you and I are able to keep a civil conversation.
Yes sir we are all fans here. No reason to be mad at each other. Everyone has different opinions about this expansive world. I am a pessimist at heart so I'm already judging this project a failure. I've been burned by Disney Star wars too many times now to be understanding with them. With the amount of money and time they put into this project, what we got doesn't really stack up. But you are right, maybe the last half of this show will make up for the beginning? I doubt it, but I'm glad there are doe eyed people out there with hope.
Disney should keep the fuck away from the old republic and especially kotor. Disney is like king Midas but their hands turn everything to shit. The old republic is the only piece of Star Wars media that hasn’t been tarnished yet.
Disney gave us some of the best pieces of Star Wars media in the Clone Wars series, Bad Batch, Rebels, Andor, and Mandalorian. All are awesome stories, but people just wanna say, "But Disney bad", just because they simply don't enjoy Star Wars anymore. Hating on Star Wars doesn't make you a fan, it just makes you a genuine hater. If there were genuine criticisms like with the Sequels and their poor writing that's fine, but most of the above projects I listed had a few hit or miss episodes and the rest was great. I am a Star Wars fan, which means I enjoy Star Wars and that means all of it, even if it isn't always the best written. Acting as though Star Wars before Disney was infallible is also not something I will listen to, because they were campy and had poor writing at times too because George was really bad at writing dialogue.
I disagree Clone wars was before the Disney‘s takeover, rebels wasn‘t as good as clone wars, bad batch was mediocre and got worse the longer it went on - so did the Mandalorian - and Andor was bloody perfect, gotta give you that one, or Disney, rather. But Andor was only as good as it was because both Kathleen Kennedy and Dave Filony were not involved whatsoever. In fact, it was made by a guy who dislikes Star Wars but who had a clear structure and story for a show in mind. On a different note, saying other Star Wars media was badly written/acted doesn’t make Disney Star Wars better. Hell, the prequels were a mess, no doubt, but they at least respected the world of Star Wars and expanded on it. Without them we wouldn’t have any of the shows you just mentioned. Disney hasn’t been able to produce anything like that in the decade they had this franchise. I’m not a hater, I enjoy it if it’s good but most of what they made was utter garbage. If you can pallet any of that nonsense, good for you. I have accepted the fact it won’t be getting better from here on out. I’m absolutely apathetic to whatever happens, like the acolyte. I know it’s bad and so do many others but I don’t go on hating people for enjoying it. However, if a post pops up that is as stupid as this one, I will voice my opinion. In the words of Kreia:"Apathy is death“ and so is Star Wars for me, dead. Edit: furthermore, nobody has to enjoy every piece of a franchise to call themselves a fan. That is a questionable mentality when engaging with any piece of media.
You’re really coping about that 16% review score aren’t you? The show is shit, people don’t care if the main character is a woman, fans love Ashoka, and Princess Leia, and Padme, and they would enjoy a fantasy sci fi show about female characters being sisters. Arcane was a big hit. Everyone is laughing at you desperately defending, power of one, power of two, power of low reviews!!!!
The actors are mediocre which only adds fuel to the “muh woke agenda Disney sucks” fire
An actor can only do so much with a script, and none of the actors in the Disney trilogy are bad, but a bad script and story direction for sure
No let’s be clear, even if Star Wars was awful the anti woke idiots would still be bad. That responsibility is entirely on them and not at all a reflection of how good or bad Star Wars is.
I respectfully and wholeheartedly disagree with you sir
100% FACT. And it was the shit back then where as now it's just SHIT.
There is too much hate.
Wrong. Acolytes just crap Rogue 1 = excellent with female lead Leia etc.
To be fair, the actual themes of the movies went over a lot of people's heads then and they still do now. Like clockwork, every few months star wars twitter rediscovers that one clip where George Lucas says that the rebels were inspired by the Viet Cong and the Empire represented American imperialism, and they're all shocked for some reason.
I don’t have a problem with the characters and even the space witch birth, they could make it to where said knowledge was lost and then anakin was born, the problem with the acolyte is that it’s horribly written, the show has good qualities, soundtrack, the action scenes are amazing and the inclusion of more aliens is also welcomed since it feels like there’s more humans in aliens, despite what a new hope and other movies show. But the writing makes no sense, it’s trying to do too much but too little at the same time, there’s telling but not showing that these characters are great and powerful, there’s no proper pacing and things seem way to convenient just to keep the plot going which other Star Wars properties do suffer from too I will add, not just the acolyte, and honestly the dialogue between characters is just awful, the fallout 4 dialogue options have more heart and soul than this crap, but this is what happens when you hire someone who’s not even a writer, but an assistant instead of an actual writer, don’t get me wrong the ideas are somewhat interesting but she can’t back them up with writing and it makes everything fall short, I don’t want to be “that guy” but I feel like she was hired on as a diversity hire because the other writers of Star Wars have been all men but those films for the sequels were botched by Kennedy anywho and it’s pretty obvious.
Another meme from the fanboys who think Homelander is the hero of The Boys.
Nope
That.. that doesn’t happen? Is this a joke?
Do you really think , fans hate acolyte because of the main role being female ? Then why didn’t anyone hate rogue one ? We can discuss the writing, the filming , the lore , the story or any main function that gives merit to a show , that is if you don’t call me a sexist, homophobic in response to any logical flaw i bring up
Uhh, I dont think anyone was complaining when Princess Leia was written as a female with strong leadership and diplomacy skills. It’s the fact that many new characters, male and female, lack complexity. They need strengths AND flaws
Think about these two being the plots respectively for each, then you’ll understand.
I wouldn't say that. It was pretty split between kids wanting to be Luke Skywalker, Darth Vader and a Storm Trooper
Cope
I just wish Star wars was about Star wars again. Fuck the Jedi and high Republic give us more andor. That was the last real good Star wars. Gritty, mature make the empire a threat not some stupid goofy shit like it was in the sequel trilogy. We don't need lesbian space witches we already got the witches of dathomir. Let's get people who actually know star wars to make Star wars. Bring back the gate keeping. If you don't know the lore then go work on something else it's time to get back to form
This 100%.
Yeah haha let’s pretend it’s bigotry and make excuses for the bad writing. It’s not like we have precedents of strong female characters that had their own storyline’s that the fan base adored….. oh wait a fucking minute Leia Skywalker, Ashoka Tano, Mara Jade Skywalker, Asajj Ventress, Bo-Katan Kryze, Hera Syndulla, Jen Erso, Darth Talon, Satele Shan, Bastila Shan and many others. Pull your heads out of your ass. It’s bad writing. I’m all for more diversity in TV shows, I’m a white dude, I like having relatable characters and I feel like everyone should have the ability to easily relate. If we need to do that with race and sex representation then not a problem. But you don’t get to pretend you are making good media just because you are appealing to a certain race, minority, sex or culture. If you make a shit piece of media then just own up to it and do better next time but these so called creatives in charge of Star Wars currently are fuelled by rabid people like you lot that seem to want nothing more than to cause division. You guys are more to blame than people like Kathleen who are actually making crap. In acolyte for example they have a fucking fire in space, which is possible but the gas source that is powering the flame would come from one spot, it should look like a flame thrower. Even it’s not safe to do practically it’s not like we don’t have CGI. Instead they opted for a standard open flame that is actively reacting to the oxygen in the air even though the scene is set in space. It would have been cheap but you still could of wrote around this if you had managed to somehow create a bubble of atmosphere but you still keep the main character in a suit meaning there isn’t one. The majority of people aren’t upset because if diversity or female characters, we are upset because this kind of half assed work can somehow pass for good writing and it makes the franchise we love and care about look like shit.
To be fair, there’s always been unrealistic stuff in space, and there is undoubtedly bigoted people who hate Disney Star Wars because it’s diverse. There’s a reason why the actors keep getting hate spewed their way. Haven’t seen the acolyte yet so I can’t speak to its quality
On the space thing, not really, at least as far as I’m aware but if you have a source I’m happy to check it out. Everything in Star Wars is usually pretty consistent, the Death Star for instance gets to have an explosion because it had a pressurised atmosphere. You don’t need to be scientifically inclined to know this stuff. I won’t argue the point of bigotry with you but I think the main issue is about half the fan base are being branded bigots because they don’t like the absolutely god awful writing and production quality of the Disney Star Wars stuff. I mean if the general thought process is the fans racist then why did they rally behind Finn when he was done dirty in the new sequel trilogy? Same deal with Ashoka, if people were really using bigotry as the deciding factor then why do people still enjoy the end of the clone wars where Ashoka takes a main character role? It’s easier for people to cry and be upset over nothing or fabricated hate than it is for them to grow up, act like a emotionally mature adult and accept when they are wrong. It annoyed me with the Warhammer 40K female Custodes retcon, I was having a discussion in the Grimdank page and had this absolute chad hit me this the line “so you don’t like Necrons then.” This was because Necrons as they are today are predominantly because of a retcon. Even though this guy proved me wrong and i was kinda upset I didn’t know as much as I thought about one of my favourite franchises. I still apologised, I still told them they were right and I gave them props for making a good and consistent argument without insulting me like a lot of the other people on that sub were. People just need to learn how to take responsibility for their actions…
Sorry for the late reply, but several OT movies have fire in space. The most notable is the SSD in ROTJ, which to be fair was hated by fans at the time. The problem with bigotry is every time it’s called out by Disney the fan reaction isn’t “yeah, that’s fucked up, fuck those guys” but “how dare you!” And it’s not helped by the gatekeeping crowd not making that something they gatekeep. Honestly my only issue with the custodes retcon was GW not adding “we fucked up not adding them before, even though multiple authors asked for them, so we’re fixing our mistake” kinda like they did with the Necrons. Then they owned up to the fact that fucked up by depriving people of “Your Dudes” with the lore
See the problem is that this is how normal people react when branded as bigots for no reasons. Outside from the list I just provided of strong females with good story’s that are loved by the fan base. What about John Boyega, the fan base loves him and hated the way his character was relegated to the side lines because of how good he was. I’m sure there were a few bigots who got upset but there is a bigot minority in almost every group and they don’t speak for the majority. Most of us are sick of being called Bigots and Misogynists when we very clearly are not, we just agree with the poor quality of writing and lore inconsistencies. The guys over in Critical Drinkers were having a chat about this earlier, it’s a lot easier to change someone’s views when you don’t insult them. You have been probably the most respectful interaction I have had in this sub so far. But even you seem to be pushing this idea of the majority of the fan base gatekeeping for bigoted and misogynistic reasons. And I have seen you guys like to pile onto Star Wars Theory a lot but conviently one of the biggest and most vocal supporters of the “Star Wars Fans Bad” argument that I have seen online is Vaush. A person known for defending CP and admitting to have a Horse Cock Fetish. Strange how I have never seen you guys try to put that fire out before it got this big. It’s already hard for us to take baseless accusations seriously but you really don’t make it hard to undermine credibility either, at least with the public figure heads your side is stuck with.
The issue isn't with women actors, it's with dogshit scripts Obi wan for example, most incoherent mess I've ever seen that just continues to get worse the further in you go
This is gaslighting and a genuinely unintelligent meme No one is complaining about women in the show. Fans are upset because the story is weak and breaks established lore, the characters are one dimensional, and the script is nothing but exposition. It's a bad show because it's a bad show
I would have loved if the show followed the first force sensitive Ewok. That would have been dope
To quote Dave Chappelle “You have smoked yourself retarded.”
And it’s “ Yass”, not yes.
The acolyte sucks man and it isn’t because of woman lmao maybe make a good show n people will like it
I didn’t realize this sub was the bots and shills circle jerk
Can’t even get the objection right. Star Wars has always had women and it’s never been an issue.
I only like the Empire because they look cool, but I am very much left-wing irl bcuz I don’t let a fictional universe with space wizards dictate my politics.
B-b-but… you can’t enjoy something without agreeing with the in universe politics!!!111
I'd argue that Andor fans still have that "Imperialism must be crushed. Empires must fall. Equality and hope for all." attitude.
2024: There are no more star wars fans.
Are yall really suggesting this trash is good lol
Almost everyone I know is complaining about the writing, story telling, and how cheap it looks, but the first thing you guys throw out is "ugh women"
You know, I always see 10x more people complaining about ignorant fans than I ever see ignorant fans. Are they all just in a worse echo chamber than the ones we’re in so we just don’t notice?
I think the writing is just bad and acting isn’t great for a $180 mil show.
That’s just what Disney thinks the fans think.
Star wars fans hate lady in space show, except for all the ladies in the space show that they liked. Obviously there's a qualitative difference between one lady and another lady, so what is it? Is it skin colour? Maybe, but unlikely. The fandom seemed to enjoy Sloane and hated Rey, so clearly that isn't the quality that matters. Is it that they're strong and independent? Probably not, given how Leia lead the Rebellion, Sloane was an admiral and the slew of fairly well liked Jedi like Ahsoka, Shaak-ti, Ventress, Hera, Sabine, etc. Some of these portrayals were even disliked in some shows but not others. So what's different about the representation of women that are disliked vs the representation of women that are liked? Most of the time it comes down to a couple of factors. First and foremost is writing: if a character is badly written/executed, then it doesn't matter how "cool" they are, everybody will dislike them. Second is whether the character exists as a vehicle to preach at the audience - which unfortunately does seem to be the case in a fair number of the poorer portrayals of women in Star Wars. What I mean by that is the motive, or at least perceived motive, for putting the character in the show to begin with. If the intent is to go "aha women can be cool, too!" then it will almost always fail, not because women can't be cool but because the creator is trying so hard to make their character look cool that they fail to write anything compelling. The character can't have faults like a normal character does. They can't make mistakes or fail in their objectives because that isn't cool and they gotta be powerful and cool and the best at everything. It doesn't help that we've had characters like that for the last thirty years at least and for a lot of people every new iteration being greeted as "this is the first time a woman X" makes it feel tedious AF - though a lot of that is unfortunately on the coverage of the product rather than anything from the creators. In other words... bad writing/execution, and one of the many red flags that signal that a character is going to be badly written/executed. So, yeah. Don't get me wrong, some people are gonna hate for stupid reasons and might genuinely just hate women - but *most* of them just seem to hate terrible writing and have recognised that when something is promoted as diverse or feminist it is extremely likely to have terrible writing because entertainment is not their objective. If it was entertaining they'd lead with that, rather than trying to get you to watch it for ideological reasons. TBH I think the whole "everyone who hates this thing must be a fascist/sexist/racist" attitude is just tedious projection. Much like the projection that everything with a diverse cast is "woke" and all that nonsense. Just treat people like individuals.
Wow you’re right. I forgot there wasn’t a single women throughout the originals or the prequels. Silly me
Yeah. That's clearly the problem they have. It's definitely not them being poorly written characters or anything. It's 100% just that they have a vagina. There have never been beloved women characters ever in the franchise. George Lucas himself definitely hasn't called out how stupid and incorrect of an argument this is in the first place. You're sooooo right on the money my man it's crazy.
OP is not going to believe it when he finds out about Princess Leia
Idk about anyone complaining about women being in Star Wars, it seems more to me that people are complaining about shitty writing and having showrunners/producers/actors who don’t have the first fucking clue about the setting they’re trying to tell a story in. There’s an interview with one of the actors and he keeps saying *anakin* blew up the Death Star. Like, just tell me you havnt watched the movies bro. Shits honestly pathetic.
This meme is so off the mark, lmao. So we’re just forgetting Leia is a thing in the OT?
Couldn’t possibly have anything to do with the writing, no, hundreds of thousands of people who loved Princess Leia and Ashoka all before Disney took over, they’re just sexist.
It’s the bad writing mostly
Is this strawman in the room with us?
Thats literally not the main problem
Yea, how I really miss how Star Wars had only white mans in the movies in the good old days! I remember these white-man only, no woman (god forbid), or negroes in my space fiction motion-pictures with such great fondness! To all other real Star Wars fan here, which is your favorite white-man-only Star Wars movie?
OP is overshooting the mark. There are and have always been some genuine pieces of shit out there who are just mad that WAHMENS are in their movies and they can go bang a cactus, but a lot of fans are acting in good faith and are perfectly right to be upset. But the writers of modern Star Wars are (among many other problems) generally too focused on cheep, low effort inclusion (often under the false assertion that it wasn't there already). Shit like the half second Lesbian kiss in TROS is worthless and insulting, and people making claims like "X is the first female villain" in 2024 is ignorant as all hell and sweeps dozens of incredible antagonists under the rug. It is absolutely true that ideals of revolution, equality, anti imperialism, as well as understanding of governance and politics often take a back seat in the modern shows and movies. The OT and Prequels were not perfect at this but they were much better than now. The New Republic is worthless and uninspiring, and watching anything set during the imperial period is blighted by the idea that everything the characters do is basically in vain. **This has to come with a ton of caveats:** inclusion and even race swapping are absolutely not bad inherently (Shawshank is awesome and Freeman killed it). No matter anyones demographics or ideology illogical writing is still a problem, nothing is going to be fixed by making everyone straight white men. Disney is ultimately a company that is trying (badly) to make money and not socially engineer anything. And more inclusion is not the direct or sole cause of less idealistic politics. And to reiterate: the "wokeness is destroying everything, M-SHE-U" people are out there, they absolutely f\*\*\*ing suck, but you have to look past them to the rest of the fans. Otherwise all we can do is shriek at each other from across a chasm and achieve nothing. [Sheev Talks](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=McR_P9izG5M) \[I promise this video is short of half an hour\] is really good if you want a perspective that's critical of modern modern Star Wars but is very firmly outside the "wokeness bad" camp. While not being a Star Wars guy, [Gaming Magic 13](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rlKvQxtlrQ8) also makes [long form videos](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r8OdcH3-uf0) that hit on a lot of the same types of arguments about writing itself rather then culture war whining, I strongly recommend him as well.
Thats not the reason people are complaining and you know it.
Star Wars fans in the 1970s: Fun, good stories about constants of the human condition are fun and good. Star Wars fans in the 2020s: This story and its execution is garbage but I must spend money on its behalf and applaud it publicly because the producers have stuck a linguistically-gymnastical byline into the press and distribution stating that disliking said garbage is ackshually me being on the wrong side of culturo-ethical history for some reason.
Is this satire?
I can never tell if the people in this sub are intellectually dishonest or intellectually challenged
This is so hilarious. Do you think anyone cares there is a lady in it? Lots of amazing shows have ladies in it. The writing is horrific, the acting amateur, and it’s all round an awful production. Imagine living life refusing to accept criticism and blaming it on being a lady.
Maybe the writing just sucks now? No, it's all just sexism.
There were women in the original Star Wars. Meme makes no sense.
I don't care about the mc being a lady... I'm more irritated by bad acting, bad writing, bad action scenes... the force is like icing on a cake, I want it there... but I want more cake than icing
Love this
I think it's tragic that the discourse around this show is so toxic that I haven't seen any good jokes about the very solid comedic situation of a universe with no hand rails and a main character named OSHA. I've yet to hear a single OSHA violation joke.
saw one the other day🤣
and now what's left of star wars fans is room temperature IQ mouth breathers who defend a monopolistic corporation and eat whatever slop is produced for them without question
The Is bull shit, no body thinks thos, te have issues with things like, why did chewy ignore Leia at the end of TFA, why did Luke's metal hand disappear with him in TLJ, Doesn't the holdo maneuver break space combat in the star wars universe?, since when could Yoda summon lightning and can all force ghost do this? Could they not help in the fight against evil? Where did all the troops needed to man the final order fleet come from, and if it was so difficult to get to exigul then how did they get some many people there?
ThE pOwEr Of MaNy
Calling people who criticize this abomination of a star wars show fascists who “unknowingly align” with a sith empire is just fucking hilarious. People who say this crap are so out of touch with reality and, at risk of being a huge nerd, don’t know shit about star wars.
It's not that I don't like women. I don't like poorly written CHARA TERS. Men or women. I also didn't like Obi-Wan, or Solo. I Didn't hate the actors or setting at all, I just didn't like the writing. You have people whining about having a black/female lead, sure, but don't lump proper criticism in with the sexists and racists please.
Y’all are really coping over these god awful shows lmao
Disney is playing you guys. They're using the culture war to deflect criticism. Nobody gives a fuck that the leads are women. The only reason people are upset is cause it's been an almost not stop shit factory. They use inclusion and DEI shit to pay themselves on the back and not do any real work. They think that because they put a woman on screen, and have a woman director that's all they need to do. The series sucks because the people making it suck. Not because of gender or sexual orientation.
Rogue One did well, the acolyte didn't, cope harder
Lets just ignore the star wars shows with female leads that existed previously and got high ratings :D
put a chick in it and make her lame and gay. E. Cartmen
Wtf are these brain-dead comments lol.
Yall are delusional.
Sorry 1970s- great stories. Hero’s journey and redemption. Common inspiring themes throughout human history. 2020s Poorly written stories. Focus current culture identity and race. Written by people with an agenda NOT a universal vision. 1970s were stories that touched everyone no matter identity or race. Personal grievances have a place in movies but not these.
There have been women in all the previous Star Wars media you moron but they were actually well written
I MUST defend the honor of my corporate slop, anyone who has any criticisms MUST be mocked!
You know what I feel is also not helping with modern Star Wars and its “fans”? A lot the modern Star Wars shit really doesn’t want to get into that political aspect the series has always been trying to make connections to and why the empire was meant to mirror a lot of what USA hegemonic power looked like that I will admit George only really scratched the surface of in the OT but now Disney cowers towards any kind of political provocation a lot of the imagery used in the OT tried to emphasize. That’s also not even getting to how Disney encourages this stuff in the little ways they erode at Star Wars transgressive nature to be more marketable like the infamous gay kiss that gets erased in the international cuts of rise of skywalker. The only piece of modern Star Wars media to embody what I feel the 1970’s era doge is talking about is Andor and is shocking in how anti authoritarian and anti fascist it decided to be to a degree of detail and thought about how it would reflect real world instances of imperialism and fascist governments in a way George never did. I think that’s mostly due to it being seen as a seemingly low importance series since it had barely any callbacks or major players in it to where that level of Disney scrutiny to make it sellable to everyone, even those weirdos who like the empire mind you, is gone but even then iirc Tony Gilroy and Diego Luna had to fight Disney on a lot of stuff for that series and why it took so long to come out because neither were willing to compromise their creative visions so honestly good on them, fuck Disney.
People hate modern star wars because it sucks, not because it has women in it. It's completely disingenuous to group all criticism as misogyny, and it is exactly because you disallow any criticism that your franchise sucks now. Do you see people complaining about a woman lead in Alien or Terminator? No, because they're good.
No. I don’t mind having a female lead. I’ve just don’t like poorly written material.
I do agree that the quality has declined but the fans are spreading homophobia and sexism because their favorite show is bad