Right! I've been looking at the motor pool thinking "I wanna try Battle Tanks + Exterminators instead of Demolisher spam." Now at 30pts less than a Demolisher there is nothing to stop me! That's two free infantry units in point reductions!
I am sad about my bully boys getting an increase though :(
Well, no help for the Valkyrie, but I'll never turn down a cheaper Leman Russ. Unfortunately my Kasrkin going up in cost means functionally nothing changes for my list in terms of points.
I mean,… one thing is being underperforming. But what we have is extremely overpriced, hardly useful, and barely any rules that make it function like an actual flier.
The reality is this- GW pushed fliers real hard like ten years ago, to the point that they were a giant pain in the ass if you didn’t have one of your own, or AA. Now that they care more about game balance, I suspect they kind of wish they hadn’t done that. Rather than remove them from the game, they just made them all expensive and shitty so they will only ever see use in a narrative game or with someone with a specific plan in mind
Oh and I forgot to include the 2nd page no changes apart from the medusa going up to 125 which was pretty much expected.
As appreantly you give us an arty army rule and then won't let us use them.
Wish our FW would survive when the codex eventually drops, but yeah seems like it’ll be getting the axe (despite GW making plastic versions of some things for HH)
I'm kinda okay with the Basi? 135 I think was fairly cheap, I'll still use them but the manticores I was so iffy on already and now they're more expensive than Russ were before this.
The Hydra is a nice little bonus, I grabbed one recently because on paper I think they're neat and now its cheaper so yay.
I didn't use kasrkin or bullgryn so at least I'm not hurt there but the guard lists that are competing are unfortunately going to get it.
Yeah it's just nerfing the top lists but they really need to tweak arty for us rather than just nerfing it into oblivion.
Personally I'd look at dropping the bombast on points as that'd be fair as its got a less good damage profile.
Here's hoping they split the FOB into 3 seperate sheets in the Codex and give them some special rules.
I don't think it's too hot a take to say that artillery is at its most fun when it's a control piece like the Basilisk's movement debuff than just straight damage. A battleshock ability on the rocket battery and an overwatch ability on the heavy lascannon (I *really* want to run the lascannons as ambushing AT emplacements) would make them *way* more fun in my opinion.
I feel like this sounds like an abused spouse, but I feel like we're pretty used to this treatment, at this point?
GW clearly wants us to play with ONE or TWO artillery pieces, so I guess that's how I'll work on building my lists. At least they threw us a bone this time by reducing Leman-Russ tanks.
Not sure why the Valkyrie is still languishing at 190 points, tho. It could easily go down 40 points and still only be in niche lists.
Why you never buy shit because it's meta. If you bought them 'cause you wanted Kasrkin, then you'd be mildly disappointed, but still looking forward to fielding them instead of being super salty about something any veteran saw comin' miles away. \*shrugs\*
Every time a balance change comes by, someone bitches 'cause they bought a meta unit that got nerfed. Most notably was the guy in 9th that bought 18 those Primaris jetpack boys right before they got nerfed. He posted his own lament as a lesson to everyone else.
Actually I bought them to fill out my first ever 2k point army. Just getting started with guard.
I’m salty because the point cost fucks my list and I don’t know how to fix it.
Yeah if you make it a generic double plasma/melta it's basically the same weapon load out as scions. I've actually been considering getting more and making a "Scion" army with Kasrkin since I think scions look dopey. Just have to figure out how to kitbash a command squad
Sorry, I know they don’t really advertise the fact that to play a 2k game you really need to own about 2500 points of models so that you can move things around when they monkey with points.
HYDRAS AT 85 POINTS. THIS IS NOT A DRILL.
Guys you gotta look at these as not backfield artillery, but literally just auto cannon light tanks.
Lots of twin linked autocannon shots that get full rerolls vs flying is really good. Pair two of these with an exterminator and you are eating good!
Edit: A better comparison might be seeing them as super heavy weapons teams.
These are so dangerously cheap now. Autocannons are a great profile for stacking ap. Triple Executioner and trip Hydra is only 765! Toss in a hellhound a couple sentinels and a cheap artillery to trigger fields and still have half of your points for Infantry.
I’ve tried running Hydra’s and they always seem to disappoint. Given how sparse orders are, you’re realistically going to have better targets for your orders. Meaning you are on average getting 2 autocannon shots onto target, and with AP-1 that usually translates badly into damage. It’s a shame because they are my favourite models. I’ll try them out again, and see if anything has changed.
Just ban the manticore ffs if they are just gonna keep upping the points till no one uses it.
At this rate by the end of the edition its gonna cost your first born child and eternal soul.
Remember that guy holding his manticores while getting his picture taken for his 1st place super major win?
Flaunting those manticores was basically double-dog daring GW to nerf them again for the 6th time.
At this point I'm dropping the medusa because if they are so hell bent on us not using our army rule, then fuck it I'm bringing 10 Rough Riders. YOLO and reinforcements!!
Kasrkin are still really good, but the days of x3 spam are done. You can maybe bring one-two units as support for line infantry now, and don’t even think of sticking them in a chimera, thats like 20 points more than a Leman? Waaaaay too much.
The issue I have with manticore being so high in points in the D6 shots. It's so incredibly swingy that it's damage output isn't very reliable especially for 190 points.
Yeah, there's actually not many units it can wipe out in a single shooting round. Firing at a squad of 10 infantry? Max 9 dead models. Firing at anything bigger than a light tank? Wounding on 5+ and no rerolls. Firing at a small squad with an invuln? Lucky to get 2 shots through.
Sure, it can kill a small squad of 5 marines a little less than half the time and it's nasty against dreads and some monsters, but it's not really a game winner. People just don't like to play against it because it is indirect and a pain to deal with.
Man, can I get some of that Crack their smoking that leads them to think Cadian shock troops are worth 60 but Chaos Legionaires got a 10 pts cut to 80? I'm happy that I can do more with my chaos army, but I just don't want to touch my Guard anymore
it was undeeded and proves that these points balances have no human interaction. all they needed was an FAQ saying " kasrkin cannot have the same order twice"
I was planning on running three in Chimeras that’s out the window. At least if they’re going to make them 120 fucking points give them some sort of buff to go with it. An invuln save or feel no pain or something Jesus they’re not really worth the cost anymore
With Scions going down to 100, I’ll just be running those. Deep Strike Scions have been fun for me taking backfield objectives and mercing intercessors
Eh I think people are (understandably) trying to cope and I agree they’re cheap but counter point: 100 points for ten scions still doesn’t give you any orders ability with them, nor do they have special wargear like melta mines. To get orders buffs for them you need to bring a command squad so that’s 170 points. PLUS you need to really add Grand Strategist and the command rod to get the full effectiveness Kasrkin had. So that’s the cost of a leman Russ battle tank for a glass cannon glorified guardsman unit that gives your opponent assassination and loses its self orders ability when it dies because you can’t bring back the command squad
Then it seems like to me Kasrkin got a deserved points increase and scions got a deserved decrease (maybe they could use more, but deep striking is a useful Strat in its own right even without order monkey attached)
Not being able to bring back command squads has been an argument against using them, since you could cut that 70 points for orders and bring some more chaff. 120 points for squishy special forces that can order themselves and can take a cheap order monkee Castellan for two orders, seems like a fair price still
Eh kind of. Ten scions is the price Kasrkin used to be but minus the orders value. Youre looking at the price of a Leman Russ if you want Scions to have the same value as Kasrkin since you need the command squad.
5 man scions and 5 man command squad now 120, so same price as new kasrkin. for that you get sustained hits, rerolls, and deepstrike, and the same order efficiency due to command rod. ultimately i think its worth it.
Side note: I think with this points redo we need to collectively come together and admit the Demolisher is overrated. Nothing like dealing 1,2,1 from D6 damage just to die turn 3
Easier just to price us out of any meaningful successful tactic than address wider rules issues/errata/FAQs, eh GW?
I was tooling around with my list very recently and found some extra points, but did think to myself "I wish X's points were different." Now I realized my mistake was thinking that "different" could mean "better"...
Edit: at this point I'm dropping the medusa because if they are so hell bent on us not using our army rule, then fuck it I'm bringing 10 Rough Riders. YOLO and reinforcements!!
Yeah I'm not sold. I play Imperial Knights and the Hydra is similar to a Helverin. Helverin gets double the shots and hits on 3s but still rarely does anything meaningful as the 1 ap is basically 0 ap with guaranteed cover.
Sounds like you're not using Squire's Duty. They can do serious work with that investment.
Guard is way better in that regard because we don't need to pay CP. We can use FoF for free with Creed and use the now cheaper Exterminator for even more bonus AP.
I’m not talking about how good the model is, but from an aethstetic point it’s just cool. Plus you know. It’s nice to have a fluffy model go down in points even if it’s not competitive.
Overall pretty reasonable. 20 points up for kasrkin is a bit rough, though I hope we get an errata to let them use their order in transports to compensate, similarly to officers.
Russ decreases are great, a bit strange, that they excluded the demolisher. It's not that it's bad, it's just kinda pointless, since for 5 more points you can get the tank commander with the same gun and better special rules.
You are forgetting TCs are not SQUADRON. So they can't order themselves and don't benefit from Fields Of Fire. All in all I'd say 200 vs 205pts is fair.
It's obvious how much better the Demo was compared to others, so I am not surprised to see others go down.
>since for 5 more points you can get the tank commander with the same gun and better special rules
Tank commander does not get the base demolisher's "shoot into combat, and with no penalty" rule, which is incredibly good. All it gets in exchange is 1 order and *possibly* shooting on death, which is not a great rule considering you only get to use it once, and only if/when you die
This does not address the swinginess of certain units. It just nerfs reliable core. For example, i love the hydra but auto cannons outside the rogal are not consistent enough.
I agree with trying to remove arty from a game like this. It doesn't exactly fit scale / can be anti fun. But not exactly compensating for shorter more interactive indirect fire or long range direct stuff is, i think, sloppy or short sighted.
Only change i'm really unhappy about is bullgryn. Very happy to want to print some kreig on motorcycles now as proxy for the riders. We've seen a few lists use them in combo with stuff to some avail and that's nice. I think some more tools like transports and support squads could go down by 5 and baneblade variants could use a little love.
The army rule not allowing for fire and maneuver is what sucks or slowly pushing up as un stabilized war machines would do in war blows. Half rounded down movement retaining lethals on squadron units would be fantastic for mech and armored play rather than just supporting arty play as anti fun gimmick.
Because if they increased his points cost the army would crumble. We dont have the order economy we did without him and so many units have been nerfed because of shenanigans with him they would have to be un done. . . .. too much work for gw.
Just give us our order bounce/splash back. It encourages thoughtful positioning, makes our officers more valuable targets (fluffy and fun for our opponents), and justifies giving out Voice of Command so sparingly
Things that I don't like that are clearly undercosted don't get touched (Solar, Creed, Krieg, Gaunt's Ghosts), while things that I do like that are clearly overcosted stay the same (Valkyrie, Priests, FOBs, Commissars).
The support structure for a guard army essentially relies entirely on him. He's load bearing at this point and removing him really screws many army's ability to just function. Order economy was sweet prior edition, this one they returned it to the cramped, jam in all you can mess situation it was before hand.
Eh. Bully-G’s went up 10 but I use the leman Russ executioner which which went down 10 so my list remains the same lol.
Might have to start using some Tempestus tho.. two squads for 100 points seems decent for secondary objective purposes
Seriously GW, just fix indirect fire to require spotters, then there is counterplay and interaction to it (as much as there can be in a “you go I go system that is”). That’s so much better and more interesting than just nerfing indirect fire into uselessness like you have been.
I'd love that but tbh the the indirect rules in isolation is fine the issue is it combined with wtc terrain as there's sooo much cover and limited direct fire lines indirect becomes crazy valuable.
If they want us too not use indirect they just need to give us a non arty based Detachment rule.
This seems pretty good to me so far. Those Russes are going to be spamed a lot. I’m a bit disappointed about the Kasrkin getting nerfed that badly. They probably could have been fine if they just got ride of the doubling up on the same order stuff.
FUCK THE KASRKIN NERF
THEY WERE 120 AND NO ONE TOOK THEM
BRING THEM TO 100 AND THEY ARE USEFUL BUT SOME STUPID TOURNEY OFFICIALS STUPID ON THE RULES
I HATE COMPETITIVE PLAYERS
I predict guard drop to a 40% win rate we were already struggling with only a handful of pro players being good with the army and now we lost our best tools
I reckon we'll be worse than before but probably figure something out, we've got alot of skilled and committed players we're just gonna need to tweak the damage dealers in the lists.
Most of the points increases were because those were units taken by competitive players that were winning GTs. Kasrkin, artillery, Bullygyn squads were in the top lists. I'm not particularly happy to see GW throwing out points increases for an army based upon tournaments. I was able to adjust my list with the points changes to bring a manticore now to build up to 3K I almost feel like I'd prefer a demolisher instead though.
These were more or less inevitable from seeing the borderline spam of some of these units. I still think kasrkin are ok if you factor in reinforcements. Puzzled that there is not much love for some of the officer units given that they are barely used in competitive. They may be due a bigger overhaul.
Wow, my Crusade army just got cheaper!
10 Scions 10 points cheaper (and they were already good)
Russ 10 points cheaper
Hydra 10 points cheaper
Rough Riders same price as infantry squad now!
A 145 point Vanquisher seems fairly nuts.
Heck ya man I'm also excited. Bring in my cheap scions, light Armour and tank support. This after the rules update for orders when coming on the board makes mechanized top tier over artillery.
Literally all the key units of every tournament winning list went up.
Bullgryn, Kasrkin, Basilisks, Manticores
10 Kasrkin cost as much as 20 Catachans now.
So we keep our tax with LS, PCS, IS for 245.
But then hey I guess its cool to now run;
* 1 Tank Commander with Grand strategist
* 5 Leman russes (whatever flavours you like, I'm going with 2xBC, 1xExterminator, 1xExecutioner, 1xVanquisher)
* 2x5 Rough Riders to screening
* 1-2 Tempestus scion units
* I dunno, 2 durable blobs or Krieg or Cadians?
12 Leman Russ variants + 2x 10 man cadians for Sticky Objs and a Commisar Warlord. The meta is real.
(145×3)+(150×3)+(150×3) +(170×3)+30+60+60 = 1995pts
Hellhound needed a larger price cut, and the Hydra went down only 5 points despite it already being super cheap. Riders is a good change, Russes are a good change. Tempestus command squad is an interesting drop. Nice for the regular scions, too, I guess. Then just a lot of expected nerfs, but +20 points to Kasrkin was overkill it only needed to be +10. All in all, it's alright, will definitely bring some list diversity.
I've already been spamming Leman Russes and Rough Riders so this mostly pleases me. Shame about the Bullgryns and Kasrkin though. 85pt Hydras seem like pretty cute filler units for some lists. I might even be tempted to try a list with 3 lol.
My 1k armored list might have enough space for a freaking Hydra. 4 Russes plus 3 light vehicles at 1000 points is going be amazing. Who cares if I can't hold objectives, I'm going scorched earth on whatever puny infantry they put in my way.
Wow, they hate the Manticore. Lol.
Leman Russ lists are just getting better and better. Some of those point differences are crazy. For the cost of 3 Demolishers you could have 4 Punisher/Eradicator/Vanquishers.
Hydras also look amazing for that cost.
This is the thread for the next few days.
As someone who has been running nearly pure armor since day 1, common treadhead W
The level of russ spam will be unmatched.
SEND IN THE NEXT WAVE…. of Russes.
As someone who started playing guard specifically for the tanks, I'm cackling with glee.
Right! I've been looking at the motor pool thinking "I wanna try Battle Tanks + Exterminators instead of Demolisher spam." Now at 30pts less than a Demolisher there is nothing to stop me! That's two free infantry units in point reductions! I am sad about my bully boys getting an increase though :(
Armored Company lists let’s go! We shall grind the enemy to dust beneath our treads!
Well, no help for the Valkyrie, but I'll never turn down a cheaper Leman Russ. Unfortunately my Kasrkin going up in cost means functionally nothing changes for my list in terms of points.
Its funny how overpriced the Valkyrie is. They could halve the points of it and would still be rather okey-ish transport.
At half the points it would still be more points than the Chimera and barely worth taking.
I've seen absolutely nobody happy about the cost of their fliers.
I mean,… one thing is being underperforming. But what we have is extremely overpriced, hardly useful, and barely any rules that make it function like an actual flier.
The reality is this- GW pushed fliers real hard like ten years ago, to the point that they were a giant pain in the ass if you didn’t have one of your own, or AA. Now that they care more about game balance, I suspect they kind of wish they hadn’t done that. Rather than remove them from the game, they just made them all expensive and shitty so they will only ever see use in a narrative game or with someone with a specific plan in mind
Overpriced and barely useful is the common theme, yes :p
Same here. My main list has 2 basalisks and 3 russes in it, so functionality nothing changed for me either.
Oh and I forgot to include the 2nd page no changes apart from the medusa going up to 125 which was pretty much expected. As appreantly you give us an arty army rule and then won't let us use them.
'Purge the FW" has its own priority.
Wish our FW would survive when the codex eventually drops, but yeah seems like it’ll be getting the axe (despite GW making plastic versions of some things for HH)
Happy with Russ going down. Pity about the manticore they can't leave the poor thing alone.
Between that and Basilisk were not allowed nice things.
I'm kinda okay with the Basi? 135 I think was fairly cheap, I'll still use them but the manticores I was so iffy on already and now they're more expensive than Russ were before this. The Hydra is a nice little bonus, I grabbed one recently because on paper I think they're neat and now its cheaper so yay. I didn't use kasrkin or bullgryn so at least I'm not hurt there but the guard lists that are competing are unfortunately going to get it.
Yeah it's just nerfing the top lists but they really need to tweak arty for us rather than just nerfing it into oblivion. Personally I'd look at dropping the bombast on points as that'd be fair as its got a less good damage profile.
I'd love to run the field ord but theyre just...eugh The real crime in this update is the valkyrie remains untouched
Here's hoping they split the FOB into 3 seperate sheets in the Codex and give them some special rules. I don't think it's too hot a take to say that artillery is at its most fun when it's a control piece like the Basilisk's movement debuff than just straight damage. A battleshock ability on the rocket battery and an overwatch ability on the heavy lascannon (I *really* want to run the lascannons as ambushing AT emplacements) would make them *way* more fun in my opinion.
Yeah it was super harsh for the direct fire rocket and lascannon to get hit by indirect tax with the bombast
It’s the go-to example for why power over points is a bad idea
I feel like this sounds like an abused spouse, but I feel like we're pretty used to this treatment, at this point? GW clearly wants us to play with ONE or TWO artillery pieces, so I guess that's how I'll work on building my lists. At least they threw us a bone this time by reducing Leman-Russ tanks. Not sure why the Valkyrie is still languishing at 190 points, tho. It could easily go down 40 points and still only be in niche lists.
The valkryie could go to under 100 pts and still not be a staple. It would just be a speedy chimera that doesn't get scout and is too chonky to hide.
As someone that was still using the carriages, I am just glad to have dodged the bullet this time.
Yeah, guess the detachment became just a little more useless.
GW really did just look at the few successful guard lists and said: fuck them
GW balancing in a nutshell.
I’m super salty because I just bought two boxes of Kasrkin
Oh GW knows... But have you seen this model over here where we just dropped the points?
Why you never buy shit because it's meta. If you bought them 'cause you wanted Kasrkin, then you'd be mildly disappointed, but still looking forward to fielding them instead of being super salty about something any veteran saw comin' miles away. \*shrugs\* Every time a balance change comes by, someone bitches 'cause they bought a meta unit that got nerfed. Most notably was the guy in 9th that bought 18 those Primaris jetpack boys right before they got nerfed. He posted his own lament as a lesson to everyone else.
Actually I bought them to fill out my first ever 2k point army. Just getting started with guard. I’m salty because the point cost fucks my list and I don’t know how to fix it.
You could just play them as 10man scion squad instead? That's 100p now.
That’s true, I’ll look into that.
Yeah if you make it a generic double plasma/melta it's basically the same weapon load out as scions. I've actually been considering getting more and making a "Scion" army with Kasrkin since I think scions look dopey. Just have to figure out how to kitbash a command squad
Sorry, I know they don’t really advertise the fact that to play a 2k game you really need to own about 2500 points of models so that you can move things around when they monkey with points.
I just looked over the video Auspex Tactics did about the strong guard lists, every single one of them went up between 95-150 points.
Well. This made my day. I'm a scions player with Russ fire support :)
Huge for you lol.
This is the way.
I'm a scions player too! Would loved something for the Rogal Dorn, I got 3, but hey, I'll take the scions win.
Looking forward to busting out the tank company
Just made a 11 tank list for the lols. 143 t11 wounds for them to chew through is going to be tough!
I’m glad the scions are going down but the increase in Kasrkin is disappointing and I’ll probably not use them over my scions.
Yeah, Kasrkin nerf was unnecessary. Just making Scions equivalent to them would have been enough.
HYDRAS AT 85 POINTS. THIS IS NOT A DRILL. Guys you gotta look at these as not backfield artillery, but literally just auto cannon light tanks. Lots of twin linked autocannon shots that get full rerolls vs flying is really good. Pair two of these with an exterminator and you are eating good! Edit: A better comparison might be seeing them as super heavy weapons teams.
There are so many units out there that just happen to fly and some armies all their vehicles fly, hydra looks like a sweet little guy
Yea that's the thing, it's flying things, not aircraft anymore. So you get those against everything from demon princes to crisis suits to fire prisms.
Feels OP fielding 3 hydras against any type of eldar or tau. Everything they have flies.
Absolutely illegal.
Tau sweat when the hydra rolls up. Also fuck you GW leave my fucking artillery alone.
These are so dangerously cheap now. Autocannons are a great profile for stacking ap. Triple Executioner and trip Hydra is only 765! Toss in a hellhound a couple sentinels and a cheap artillery to trigger fields and still have half of your points for Infantry.
That's actually so insane. This is gonna be an amazing foundation for the list.
Necrons have a lot of fly units, just saying
This is what i say, when you compare them to the points of hwt. Slept on unit.
Yep, I think Hydra is sleeper utility unit for nice cost.
Absolutely. 25 points more and you just get so more for the points compared to an autocannon HWS.
I’ve tried running Hydra’s and they always seem to disappoint. Given how sparse orders are, you’re realistically going to have better targets for your orders. Meaning you are on average getting 2 autocannon shots onto target, and with AP-1 that usually translates badly into damage. It’s a shame because they are my favourite models. I’ll try them out again, and see if anything has changed.
I took it against tau, and you’d think it would be incredible, but it only did ok
This is why we bring 3 my friend.
Alrighty time for earthshaker spam with creed ordering them and giving them free fields of fire then
Time is a flat circle eh.
Another quarter, another point hike for artillery. Same as it ever was.
At this rate, manticores will be like 400 points by 11th
Duck manticores I guess? Fielding 3+ lemans make me a happy boy
3+ in 1k you mean I'm debating 6 in 2k rn.
6 in 1k, im looking at 10 + Infantry
This is the way.
I’m doing 12 (current max)
Well, guess the horses are gonna see a lot more use now. And I'm happy I only have a single unit of Kasrkin.
Honestly I've got an old box of aos horses that I was debating kitbashing that just went massively up the list.
Off the top of my head david gaylard's list that won the supermajor is at least 2150pts now.
Yeah on the competitive sub thry said most of our winning lists go up by about 125, so that list is dead for now.
Excited for russ spam though!
Just ban the manticore ffs if they are just gonna keep upping the points till no one uses it. At this rate by the end of the edition its gonna cost your first born child and eternal soul.
[Stop, Stop He's Already Dead!](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BXZFbGJxSlk)
Sounding a little heretical there guardsman 🧐
90% sure Manticores will continue to see use.
Remember that guy holding his manticores while getting his picture taken for his 1st place super major win? Flaunting those manticores was basically double-dog daring GW to nerf them again for the 6th time.
At this point I'm dropping the medusa because if they are so hell bent on us not using our army rule, then fuck it I'm bringing 10 Rough Riders. YOLO and reinforcements!!
Legit I'm debating putting the rough riders in as the karskin replacements I've just got todo the maths first.
Kasrkin are still really good, but the days of x3 spam are done. You can maybe bring one-two units as support for line infantry now, and don’t even think of sticking them in a chimera, thats like 20 points more than a Leman? Waaaaay too much.
It's pretty ridiculous at this point. "We want you to use your army rule, but not with the units that benefit from it the most"
The issue I have with manticore being so high in points in the D6 shots. It's so incredibly swingy that it's damage output isn't very reliable especially for 190 points.
Yeah, there's actually not many units it can wipe out in a single shooting round. Firing at a squad of 10 infantry? Max 9 dead models. Firing at anything bigger than a light tank? Wounding on 5+ and no rerolls. Firing at a small squad with an invuln? Lucky to get 2 shots through. Sure, it can kill a small squad of 5 marines a little less than half the time and it's nasty against dreads and some monsters, but it's not really a game winner. People just don't like to play against it because it is indirect and a pain to deal with.
Man, can I get some of that Crack their smoking that leads them to think Cadian shock troops are worth 60 but Chaos Legionaires got a 10 pts cut to 80? I'm happy that I can do more with my chaos army, but I just don't want to touch my Guard anymore
Seconded. The IG are getting packed up I'm sick of feeling like I'm playing with half a deck
Kasrkin nerf hurts
it was undeeded and proves that these points balances have no human interaction. all they needed was an FAQ saying " kasrkin cannot have the same order twice"
Well that just absolutely torpedoed the list I was going to bring to a tourni next weekend. Back to the shelf my beautiful Kasrkin go.
I think even with the points increase they'll still be usable, but yeah it's sad.
I was planning on running three in Chimeras that’s out the window. At least if they’re going to make them 120 fucking points give them some sort of buff to go with it. An invuln save or feel no pain or something Jesus they’re not really worth the cost anymore
What they needed todo was clear up the frfsrf and mmm ruling then they become fair again and 100 points but some people are doing dumb shit with them.
Exactly Just don’t let you stack the same order
As it always was and as it should be.
Yeah easiest rules commentary or FAQ
Top players didnt play them with double orders. But 20 points up and scions 10 down....euh scion spam
With Scions going down to 100, I’ll just be running those. Deep Strike Scions have been fun for me taking backfield objectives and mercing intercessors
Eh I think people are (understandably) trying to cope and I agree they’re cheap but counter point: 100 points for ten scions still doesn’t give you any orders ability with them, nor do they have special wargear like melta mines. To get orders buffs for them you need to bring a command squad so that’s 170 points. PLUS you need to really add Grand Strategist and the command rod to get the full effectiveness Kasrkin had. So that’s the cost of a leman Russ battle tank for a glass cannon glorified guardsman unit that gives your opponent assassination and loses its self orders ability when it dies because you can’t bring back the command squad
Then it seems like to me Kasrkin got a deserved points increase and scions got a deserved decrease (maybe they could use more, but deep striking is a useful Strat in its own right even without order monkey attached) Not being able to bring back command squads has been an argument against using them, since you could cut that 70 points for orders and bring some more chaff. 120 points for squishy special forces that can order themselves and can take a cheap order monkee Castellan for two orders, seems like a fair price still
The base size thing is annoying, but just run them as scions now that they are so cheap.
Eh kind of. Ten scions is the price Kasrkin used to be but minus the orders value. Youre looking at the price of a Leman Russ if you want Scions to have the same value as Kasrkin since you need the command squad.
I think deep strike and full rerolls on objectives makes up for it. They really don’t need orders.
If you run gaunts ghosts they can uppy downy and order the scions
5 man scions and 5 man command squad now 120, so same price as new kasrkin. for that you get sustained hits, rerolls, and deepstrike, and the same order efficiency due to command rod. ultimately i think its worth it.
Side note: I think with this points redo we need to collectively come together and admit the Demolisher is overrated. Nothing like dealing 1,2,1 from D6 damage just to die turn 3
Ironicallly I rolled a 6 6 6 dmg on Angron in my last game
Yeah demolishers as TCS only.
Easier just to price us out of any meaningful successful tactic than address wider rules issues/errata/FAQs, eh GW? I was tooling around with my list very recently and found some extra points, but did think to myself "I wish X's points were different." Now I realized my mistake was thinking that "different" could mean "better"... Edit: at this point I'm dropping the medusa because if they are so hell bent on us not using our army rule, then fuck it I'm bringing 10 Rough Riders. YOLO and reinforcements!!
if they chnaged the detahcment to being " under the effetcs of order" arty lists are immediately invalidated
Hydra at 85, nice. Those things are soo good looking.
Yeah I'm not sold. I play Imperial Knights and the Hydra is similar to a Helverin. Helverin gets double the shots and hits on 3s but still rarely does anything meaningful as the 1 ap is basically 0 ap with guaranteed cover.
Sounds like you're not using Squire's Duty. They can do serious work with that investment. Guard is way better in that regard because we don't need to pay CP. We can use FoF for free with Creed and use the now cheaper Exterminator for even more bonus AP.
Yep, and both of those stack. So AP-3 Hydras.
I’m not talking about how good the model is, but from an aethstetic point it’s just cool. Plus you know. It’s nice to have a fluffy model go down in points even if it’s not competitive.
5 Leman Russes in 1k points game it is then Let the emperor be proud at the sight of my t'au's ball-smashing tank company
They-ve sold a lot of kasrkin and bullgryin, now its time to sell scions.
If only they did them in boxes of 10
Overall pretty reasonable. 20 points up for kasrkin is a bit rough, though I hope we get an errata to let them use their order in transports to compensate, similarly to officers. Russ decreases are great, a bit strange, that they excluded the demolisher. It's not that it's bad, it's just kinda pointless, since for 5 more points you can get the tank commander with the same gun and better special rules.
You are forgetting TCs are not SQUADRON. So they can't order themselves and don't benefit from Fields Of Fire. All in all I'd say 200 vs 205pts is fair. It's obvious how much better the Demo was compared to others, so I am not surprised to see others go down.
>since for 5 more points you can get the tank commander with the same gun and better special rules Tank commander does not get the base demolisher's "shoot into combat, and with no penalty" rule, which is incredibly good. All it gets in exchange is 1 order and *possibly* shooting on death, which is not a great rule considering you only get to use it once, and only if/when you die
This does not address the swinginess of certain units. It just nerfs reliable core. For example, i love the hydra but auto cannons outside the rogal are not consistent enough. I agree with trying to remove arty from a game like this. It doesn't exactly fit scale / can be anti fun. But not exactly compensating for shorter more interactive indirect fire or long range direct stuff is, i think, sloppy or short sighted. Only change i'm really unhappy about is bullgryn. Very happy to want to print some kreig on motorcycles now as proxy for the riders. We've seen a few lists use them in combo with stuff to some avail and that's nice. I think some more tools like transports and support squads could go down by 5 and baneblade variants could use a little love. The army rule not allowing for fire and maneuver is what sucks or slowly pushing up as un stabilized war machines would do in war blows. Half rounded down movement retaining lethals on squadron units would be fantastic for mech and armored play rather than just supporting arty play as anti fun gimmick.
Seriously change rule to " lethals on units under effects of orders" and shazam, IG is fixed
How has Lord Solar Leontus, Mr. Auto-include, avoided points increases again!?! He can't keep getting away with it!
Because if they increased his points cost the army would crumble. We dont have the order economy we did without him and so many units have been nerfed because of shenanigans with him they would have to be un done. . . .. too much work for gw.
Just give us our order bounce/splash back. It encourages thoughtful positioning, makes our officers more valuable targets (fluffy and fun for our opponents), and justifies giving out Voice of Command so sparingly
The model isn't going to sell on looks is it.
Shh don't remind them, we need him to function.
Things that I don't like that are clearly undercosted don't get touched (Solar, Creed, Krieg, Gaunt's Ghosts), while things that I do like that are clearly overcosted stay the same (Valkyrie, Priests, FOBs, Commissars).
The support structure for a guard army essentially relies entirely on him. He's load bearing at this point and removing him really screws many army's ability to just function. Order economy was sweet prior edition, this one they returned it to the cramped, jam in all you can mess situation it was before hand.
I like that, he's a load bearing centrepiece model lol.
He just shoves his points increases onto the Manticore lol
Earthahaker carriage batteries now meta????
Eh. Bully-G’s went up 10 but I use the leman Russ executioner which which went down 10 so my list remains the same lol. Might have to start using some Tempestus tho.. two squads for 100 points seems decent for secondary objective purposes
They seem to really hate the Manticore for some reason
As long as the earthshaker carriage is at 125 points I am good.
120 points
You’re right. Even better.
Seriously GW, just fix indirect fire to require spotters, then there is counterplay and interaction to it (as much as there can be in a “you go I go system that is”). That’s so much better and more interesting than just nerfing indirect fire into uselessness like you have been.
I'd love that but tbh the the indirect rules in isolation is fine the issue is it combined with wtc terrain as there's sooo much cover and limited direct fire lines indirect becomes crazy valuable. If they want us too not use indirect they just need to give us a non arty based Detachment rule.
This seems pretty good to me so far. Those Russes are going to be spamed a lot. I’m a bit disappointed about the Kasrkin getting nerfed that badly. They probably could have been fine if they just got ride of the doubling up on the same order stuff.
Yea it pisses me off. Gdubs introduced a broken buggy rule with them and instead of fixing it….. just make it so you wont take them.
FUCK THE KASRKIN NERF THEY WERE 120 AND NO ONE TOOK THEM BRING THEM TO 100 AND THEY ARE USEFUL BUT SOME STUPID TOURNEY OFFICIALS STUPID ON THE RULES I HATE COMPETITIVE PLAYERS
Right? One guy in the internet starts running his mouth about kasrkin and bullgryn and manticore and now we've lost all of them
The time of the artillery is over.... The time of the Russ is on!!
GW is really trying his best to not make me buy any artillery ever. Oh well, suits them :"D
At this rate, the manticore will cost as much as a baneblade before Christmas.
I predict guard drop to a 40% win rate we were already struggling with only a handful of pro players being good with the army and now we lost our best tools
I think they use this as an excuse for the next balance patch when our win rates drop so low to just give lethal hits on everything and call it a fix
I mean the win rates defo dropping as its nuked the main winning list but I reckon we're still better than vanilla marines.
Vanilla marines have ironstorm and as long as they have that, they have a winning list.
I reckon we'll be worse than before but probably figure something out, we've got alot of skilled and committed players we're just gonna need to tweak the damage dealers in the lists.
Where are you getting this information? I can’t find any changes on warcom or the field manual itself.
They've updated the field manual
Sick thanks for the heads up
Triple exterminator let's go
Most of the points increases were because those were units taken by competitive players that were winning GTs. Kasrkin, artillery, Bullygyn squads were in the top lists. I'm not particularly happy to see GW throwing out points increases for an army based upon tournaments. I was able to adjust my list with the points changes to bring a manticore now to build up to 3K I almost feel like I'd prefer a demolisher instead though.
These were more or less inevitable from seeing the borderline spam of some of these units. I still think kasrkin are ok if you factor in reinforcements. Puzzled that there is not much love for some of the officer units given that they are barely used in competitive. They may be due a bigger overhaul.
Wow, my Crusade army just got cheaper! 10 Scions 10 points cheaper (and they were already good) Russ 10 points cheaper Hydra 10 points cheaper Rough Riders same price as infantry squad now! A 145 point Vanquisher seems fairly nuts.
Heck ya man I'm also excited. Bring in my cheap scions, light Armour and tank support. This after the rules update for orders when coming on the board makes mechanized top tier over artillery.
They really hate Manticores, don't they?
Literally all the key units of every tournament winning list went up. Bullgryn, Kasrkin, Basilisks, Manticores 10 Kasrkin cost as much as 20 Catachans now.
again?
Does fall of the kasrkin = rise of the Scion?
I wonder who had a manticore poop in their cheerios. Also, Basilisk 20 points less than a lrbt is wild
So we keep our tax with LS, PCS, IS for 245. But then hey I guess its cool to now run; * 1 Tank Commander with Grand strategist * 5 Leman russes (whatever flavours you like, I'm going with 2xBC, 1xExterminator, 1xExecutioner, 1xVanquisher) * 2x5 Rough Riders to screening * 1-2 Tempestus scion units * I dunno, 2 durable blobs or Krieg or Cadians?
I think rough riders as the aggressive trade piece similar to karskin is the most interesting thing we might be doing.
And then there's me; Hating the 'Rus. (purely by looks. My own opinion.) and will never get a regular one. .. And just bought Kasrkins. Whyyy
*Sad Valkyrie Noises*
12 Leman Russ variants + 2x 10 man cadians for Sticky Objs and a Commisar Warlord. The meta is real. (145×3)+(150×3)+(150×3) +(170×3)+30+60+60 = 1995pts
Tanks need orders my dude we're not dropping lord solar.
Yah... he also doesn't bring any tank commanders in his list.
Every time i make a new laminated wound chart this crap happens. Aaaaak
Laminated wound chart? What is that?
Let the armored columns feast!
Are my Punishers good yet? What about my Eradicator?
I was running 2 manticores, 2 demos (1 a TC), and 2 dorns. I’ll probably drop 1 manticore and add some more scions and maybe the command squad.
Welp, no time to weep for my lost battleforce set. Russ spam is the way.
Hellhound needed a larger price cut, and the Hydra went down only 5 points despite it already being super cheap. Riders is a good change, Russes are a good change. Tempestus command squad is an interesting drop. Nice for the regular scions, too, I guess. Then just a lot of expected nerfs, but +20 points to Kasrkin was overkill it only needed to be +10. All in all, it's alright, will definitely bring some list diversity.
[удалено]
I've already been spamming Leman Russes and Rough Riders so this mostly pleases me. Shame about the Bullgryns and Kasrkin though. 85pt Hydras seem like pretty cute filler units for some lists. I might even be tempted to try a list with 3 lol.
My 1k armored list might have enough space for a freaking Hydra. 4 Russes plus 3 light vehicles at 1000 points is going be amazing. Who cares if I can't hold objectives, I'm going scorched earth on whatever puny infantry they put in my way.
Imma run 3 russes lord solar and a unit of Armoured Sentinels at 1k tommrow.
Well, my Steel Legion mechanized list I just built is now way over pointed. And I just bought another Manticore for it. Ugh.
What, no discount for three or more sentinels?
Wow, they hate the Manticore. Lol. Leman Russ lists are just getting better and better. Some of those point differences are crazy. For the cost of 3 Demolishers you could have 4 Punisher/Eradicator/Vanquishers. Hydras also look amazing for that cost.
20% increase in Kasrkin just when I was getting into them. Time for some Scion shenanigans instead.
As a collector of a cavalry heavy list, this is great!
How are two kasrkin squads worth almost as much as a rogal dorn? wtf?
My 30 rough riders approve. Can’t hold my horses.
We’re so back scion bros
Woo! Scions dropped
David gaylard (top player) wins ONE tournament with IG and they have to nuke kasrkin
List went up by 95 points right before the tournament. Ouch!
I've been wanting a Hydra for a while to round out my motor pool and this pushed me to go grab one