At its core, it's a medical procedure. Medical professionals are not allowed to participate with executions. And, why would anyone conducting an execution care enough to do it right? I'm more surprised we even care about the ethics of execution anymore - once you make the decision that it's okay to kill people, the details seem sort of unimportant.
Right, but if you want to kill someone, and it requires doing so by injecting an intravenous medication, wouldnāt you want it to be successful? Especially if youāre trying to keep the death penalty āa thingā all while there are people actively trying to make it āno longer a thing.ā And even if medical professionals arenāt allowed to participate, canāt NON-medical professionals still be trained in performing an IV insertion? Itās not complicated. Iām a nurse and literally learned about peripheral IV insertion basics/doās and donātās in a classroom setting which took about half a day. And that included practicing on mannequin arms. If itās not for a license of any kind, it shouldnāt be difficult to train a few people. They wouldnāt even need to hire a current medical professional/teacher since Iām sure it goes against ethics. There must be countless retired doctors/nurses/paramedics/etc with years of experience who are no longer licensed, personally believe in the death penalty, and arenāt bound by any licensing authority or board in regards to medical ethics.
It just doesnāt make sense to botch something so simple unless you are trying to get it banned as a practice. I know the state government wants it but maybe the participants themselves feel differently and were trying to muck up the process.
>Especially if youāre trying to keep the death penalty āa thingā all while there are people actively trying to make it āno longer a thing.ā And even if medical professionals arenāt allowed to participate, canāt NON-medical professionals still be trained in performing an IV insertion? Itā
Why would it get banned? Read reddit and see how many people wish pain and suffering to prisoners - I'm not inserting my opinion on the matter, but there's a lot of revenge-based views of execution.
I donāt personally see the death penalty being abolished but that doesnāt meant that there arenāt agencies actively working to have the remaining death penalty states bring it to an end.
And many pharmaceutical companies are refusing to provide the lethal injection drug pentobarbital to state prisons for the purpose of executions. So some state prisons are having to turn to compounding pharmacies who arenāt regulated by the FDA. But theyāre keeping their suppliers a secret to avoid compromising that relationship.
The secrecy is absolutely unacceptable. There should be 100% transparency of the entire process. If the drug suppliers are ok with it morally and ethically when kept under wraps, then they should be fine with it in the open too.
Any medical personnel, educators, etc who participate in anything other than confirmation that the detainee is dead should never be allowed to work in medicine ever again, in any capacity.
Yeah, itās really fucked up that it even exists and they pretend that making it medical makes it okay. Like, if weāre going to execute people letās use machine guns and explosives. Make it as bloody and violent and HD as possible, so at least that way it was honest.
Reddit comments terrify me sometimes.
Bring up a person's crimes and suddenly people have a million inventive ways to torture that person til death and feel okay and hell, morally righteous, as they talk about it because the person "deserves" it.
And there is absolutely no convincing them that thinking that way about any human, no matter who they are, is very disturbed. And it shows the thing stopping you from becoming that level of monstrous is just a good enough excuse.
I lost my faith when my local sub had a story about a 15 year old boy who murdered a 13 year old girl. If heās tried as an adult he goes to state prison until heās 33. If tired as a juvenile he goes to prison until heās 27, but has access to a lot more service - especially for the next 5 years. The comments? He should never be let out. He should be what brings back execution here. I hope prison justice is better than state justice. (Obviously itās a complicated situation, but defaulting to vengeance is insane. Although I remember when the news covered the Ted Bundy execution parties so I shouldnāt be shocked)
Agree except some of the inmates will dehydrate themselves on purpose and have poor sites for IVs left as they have had too many blowouts from IV drug use.
There are so many things that can make an IV not easy though, even dehydration can seriously hamper that. I suspect that people who know they are going to be executed arent particularly careful to stay hydrated. I also am not sure why exactly there have been so many failed IVs but I do not think it is intentionally botched. I think they are just undertrained and in poor conditions that make it harder. If they brought in a vein finder that would probably make this problem go away, but that is also a medical device. The whole thing is one big legal mess and quite frankly I dont think it makes sense to keep going through this mess but we have to many people who really seem to get off on executions.
Participating in an event execution violates their oath, so itās just someone from the prison trained to do it. Even a well trained veteran nurse can struggle to do it when dealing with someone old and sick. The fact that they missed 8 times is no surprise.
Why would they invest in that stuff? Itās expensive. Itās not used often. It requires training. And the people who would use it are there to kill people - not make their lives comfortable.
Ultrasound was recommended by the Oklahoma committee that investigated Clayton Lockett's botched execution, but that's not binding on other states and requires training and familiarization unto itself.
Not necessarily. According to Idaho's execution SOP, "Medical Team" membership requires merely three years of healthcare experience to include IV training (paraphrased).
This is untrue. 35 states REQUIRE a medical professional to take part in the execution. Others use retired medical professionals and they are immune from the ethics of such.
23 states have eliminated the death penalty, and another 6 have put a moratorium on them. So, at most 21 states could require them to do them. And of those, they may require a physician, but it looks to be an advisory or observatory role. Anesthesiologists who participate in executions will lose their careers on the grounds of ethics violations.
I'm going to cut that person a break here: a lot of states have dead-letter lethal injection protocols even though they've banned (or...moratoried?) capital punishment.
This is true to an extent, but I haven't yet come across a protocolary requirement that screams "guaranteed to succeed on a hard stick," which death row inmates are in several categories of disproportionate likelihood of being.
One possibility: the inability of the nursing staff. I would imagine there arenāt a lot of them that are willing to do this work and good ones would work elsewhere. I have a family member that has to have a specialist come in every time they get an IV set.
Bruh doctors aren't ordering you euthanize a human being. yall forgot what they did to Kevorkian way too fast.
ETA and those were people who wanted to die. Unlike almost all the death row inmates.
I just said that before I read your comment š my theory is that decades of prison food and inactivity, along with aging, has lead to untreated/under treated health issues like diabetes, heart disease and blood pressure problems that can decrease the quality and visibility of veins. They should try and improve these guys diets and exercise a few months before execution. Might be worth it to try and prevent this from happening every other execution.
Valid point. Not quite the same, but former/current IV drug users w/ shot out veins are susceptible to things like this also. So many collapsed veins from pinning & trying to find any good veins they have left. Many will start injecting into their hands & feet even. Very painful. Dmn near impossible to find a decent vein to work with for setting up IV lines medically.
Not drinking anything between midnight and 9am was enough for me before my surgery.
They finally let me drink a bottle of water and got an IV into me, lol.
Same for me and many others. I have to drink a metric ton of water throughout the prior day or no dice for me. & boy is it fun when they can't get a vein & start digging.. both arms. Back and forth. In & out with needle in the same pin while trying different angles. "Rolly veins they say".. I have another word for it.. "Torture", motherfucker! š
Ugh i hate when they say that š¤£ hmm is that code for you dont know what you're doing? Seriously tho ill give em two sticks then im done for that day, we can try again another time
I said the same thing in another thread. Prisoners arenāt a young and healthy bunch. And most death row inmates are executed, not within a couple of years of their crime, but 20+ years later, when theyāre elderly. Their vasculature system is old and weak, and possibly in much worse shape if they have peripheral artery disease, gout, CHF, diabetes, any stage of kidney disease/on dialysis, or any autoimmune disease. They should know what theyāre working withā¦
Prison isn't exactly a life-lengthening environment, even if you're *not* on Death Row--I don't know any actual stats, but it seems that people who die in prison tend to be significantly younger, on average, than those who die on the outside, and frankly I'm a bit surprised this guy is still around at 73. At this point, they might as well just wait and let him die naturally, rather than put everyone, staff included, through another botched execution. (Now watch him live another 15 years or so...)
Obesity. Drug use, believe it or not. Sedentary lifestyle. Old age, by the time their appeals work themselves out. If you wanted to make yourself a hard stick, it's hard to find a better way.
Iām a nurse and have to put IVs in people a lot. Itās hard sometimes and I have tons of an experience. Iām sure these technicians donāt do it a ton and thereās obviously a lot of pressure in the moment.
If he did do that and he is that determined to live for whatever reason (despite having been in prison for the entirety of my parents lives), I say let him. As long as he spends the rest of it in prison where he can't hurt anyone. I consider protection to the main purpose of the justice system, so a sentence that lasts the rest of your natural life is pretty much just as effective for achieving that.
Yeah but heās lied about many of those murders in order to stall his death dateā¦ so they did that so they could talk to him and solve these cold cases and they figured out he lied.
So basically heās another Henry Lee Lucas. He also enjoys toying with the police and with the families emotionās and he enjoys the attention
I never understood this. If they suffocated or shot their victims why is the perpetrator too good for that method as well?
America is so weird. We painlessly put dogs down everyday but we botch executions regularly in states that allow it bc they don't allow certain proven methods.
They have to get every appeal. If we're not going to completely ban the death penalty, then we need to do everything we can to make sure that we're not putting innocent people to death. You can let someone out of jail if you're wrong, you can't resurrect them.
But honestly feel like we need to just end of the death penalty nationwide.
Because it isn't about what the perp is "too good for"
It is about what they did is inhumane and that is why they were put in jail.
So why on earth would doing the same thing become better because the state sanctioned it?
If we can't be better than murderers then what is frankly the point. And that is before you remember the people killed on death row who were INNOCENT.
Using $87,937 exotic chemicals to execute convicted murderers; and then it fails. Using $8.00 worth of pure Mexican fentanyl which works 100% of the time, priceless.
Bullets should cost $5000, because if bullets cost $5000 there would be no more innocent bystanders... people watching would be like DAMN he had to have done something, they just put $50,000 worth of bullets in his ass.
- Chris Rock
I thought Idaho was bringing back the firing squad for executions for exactly this reason?
Because so called "humane " executions don't always work. I thought this was happening since they arrested Brian Kohberger they've been talking about it.
Maybe they need to start with this guy
If I was to be executed, I would want it done like this....
Inject patient with 6mg of Xanax, wait until they are virtually unconscious. (Few minutes)
Then administer an injection of 500mg of morphine.
Easiest and most enjoyable death I can think of.
Several states have looked into new or revived execution methods as lethal injection keeps failing (or, more accurately, as manufacturers and activists keep making it harder to get drugs).
I don't get it why can't we just put a mask on them and pump it full of carbon monoxide. Easy, plentiful, painless, they fall asleep and die. Super common way to kill yourself in a car so why is it not ok here?
Genuine question - is nitrogen different, in terms of getting it supplied for the execution? It worries me that gassing prisoners is, potentially, going to become commonplace. Especially after how badly Kenneth Eugene Smith reacted to it earlier this year.
Oh, no, not at all! I hadn't even thought about the awful affects of the injection when I posted that, tbh. No, I don't want them to suffer; I feel (if a death penalty were appropriate in a case) the firing squad should be used. Idk, I don't live in the States so idk the politics, nor the ins and outs of executions. I just..reading about what happened to Smith via nitrogen hypoxia was horrific, and I'd hate for that to become a "go-to", y'know?
Death penalty fans object to the 'painless' part. Really. They don't want the prisoner to enjoy dying, but they can't be so cruel that they trip into 'cruel and unusual'.
If we must, I think old-school is the way. Madame Guillotine would be my choice.
yeah but it doesn't have to be a "chamber" you put a mask on them like at the dentist's office and let them slip into oblivion. I truly don't get it. It's cheap, easy to produce (I mean you can hook your car exhaust up if you need to) painless and ALWAYS works. It makes no sense to me. I don't get why we're so attached to lethal injection when prisons can't get the proper drugs anymore and it's so easy to mess up. Gas is so easy and you don't need to deal with any medical or drug companies.
And shit, if you WON'T do that why not go back to hanging? When designed properly it always works, it's instant and there is no clean up (as long as they wear a diaper.) I don't get it. Fucking morons running this clown show.
I do get where you're coming from. From Googling it, some people are also concerned about carbon monoxide leaking to others in the area, besides the bad PR. Personally, I think if we are going to do it, the best method is firing squad, and I agree that we are a bit to hung up (no pun intended) on lethal injection.
but firing squad is violent and has a messy clean up. And someone has to actually shoot a gun at someone (even if it's multiple people some with blanks.) Gas in a mask in a separate room would be totally safe how could that leak? And hanging while seeming violent is again fast, painless with no clean up. All anyone is doing is pulling a lever they could be in another room completely not visible or connected to the person getting executed. None of this needs to be hard or messy or violent or inhumane yet here we are. None of it makes sense.
Interesting choice of word calling them āfansā, but as someone who supports the death penalty in extreme cases I think I can give a bit of insight. Itās not that I think they need to be tortured to death, I just find it hard to be sympathetic to a relatively minor amount of suffering when they themselves caused untold amounts of suffering to their victims.
yeah but all of these fuck ups make the news. it brings attention to these people again for no reason. it creates unnecessary suffering, attention, work for the prison staff, etc. If you're going to kill someone just do it and get it over with, this whole not being able to find veins, or it not working, or the mistakes making the news...honestly it's not good for anyone involved. There is no reason to not just turn the person off in the easiest, quickest, most efficient manner and be done with it.
I think this is what a lot of people feelādeath penalty is serious and not a fun thing, but in some cases itās a necessity to protect the public. Reddit just wants to treat it like a binary.
Yeah. I don't think the government should have the right to execute citizens, in the first place - even the psychos. But if the government is too inept to get it right, well, then I think they've had their chance and blown it.
Sunk cost + plenty of cheap executions around the world. Your entire premise is based upon bureaucracy in selected countries only and not any technicality.Ā
I will never understand why this happens. Working in the veterinary world for many years, I have NEVER seen a euthanasia fail, ever. Including a 200 pound dog.
Basically two major reasons, pretty much all medical professions of relevant training have codes of ethics that ban them from participating in capital punishment beyond very specific actions such as(but not entirely limited to) providing pain relief pre-execution if requested by the inmate, and certifying the inmates death after a third party has already declared death. T
This means that the people actually performing the execution will often be untrained or have less than ideal training, though sometimes legitimate doctors and nurses will do it under conditions of anonymity.
Secondly, medical suppliers generally disapprove of their products being used in capital punishment against unwilling participants, so prisons will often turn to less reputable suppliers, or use alternatives that in theory should have similar effects to the conventional lethal injection mixture.
I believe in the past, when certain kinds of executions failed, they most often let the prisoner live. It was seen as an act of God.
https://discover.hubpages.com/literature/10-PEOPLE-WHO-SURVIVED-EXECUTION-BY-HANGING
He sounds like the exact case that makes me less than completely opposed to the death penalty. "Oh he's a changed man!" Maybe you should have made that change before you killed multiple people. He probably purposefully dehydrated himself so they had trouble with the veins.
That was my first thought was he probably did dehydrate himself. I definitely would.
I was in rehab for alcoholism not too long ago, and my first day they did blood work. It was done eventually, but my dehydration caused it to be tougher than needed.
How could they not establish an IV? What āmedical professionalsā were these? It took 7 or 8 tries and they couldnāt get a line?
Did they have students trying for the first time on him? I watch ER nurses get 18 gauge lines into 99 year old dehydrated confused combative folks daily. They really must not have their best and brightest working at this. Probably because of ethics.
Who's hiring the guy that helps kill people? Asking as a nurse. First time shit goes wrong they're looking at you as a liability because for profit hc is bs that way.
You realize that oath is a tradition and does not affect your license or have any legal ramifications, right?
The licensing boards are against it, and thatās why physicians donāt take part.
His veins might be trash. Iāve loaded with water and failed for attempts just for mri contrast, and thatās not abnormal for me. I walk 2-3mi around 5 days a week most weeks, blood work is fine, normal weight and not obese, and Iām not tiny. Iām 5ā8. My veins just suck no matter how much I drink the days before. The needles are provably big too.
Yeah but Iāve never seen even the worst patients take 8 tries at the hospital. Iāve seen them go atypical places when they canāt get a line in the arm but never failing like this.
Yea sorry. They said it's "volunteers' with hidden identities. Sounds like they slipped the janitors 20 bucks and told them to watch grays anatomy to do it 'right'
The more atypical a vein you have to try for, the quicker it gets outside your scope of practice. This is not a problem in a hospital, when a specialist (or at least someone who's good at it) is a phone call away; execution chambers don't have that luxury. (As they shouldn't.)
āThree medical team members tried eight times to establish an IV, Corrections Director Josh Tewalt told a news conference afterward. In some cases, they couldnāt access the vein, and in others they could but had concerns about vein quality. They attempted sites in his arms, legs, hands and feet. At one point, a medical team member left to gather more supplies.
The execution team was made up entirely of volunteers, the corrections department said. Those tasked with inserting the IVs and administering the lethal drug had medical training, but their identities were kept secret. They wore white balaclava-style face coverings and navy scrub caps to conceal their faces.ā
When I had my second back surgery it took a weird vein finder light, several nurses, then they called someone from icu, and even then I woke up with brand new iv lines post op cus nothing anyone tried was working well enough. It happens.
It's often hard to get a vein on me. When I had my tilt table test, they asked me to not drink any water for 12 hours, so I was a bit dehydrated. They (2 nurses) tried at least 6, but I am pretty sure it was actually 8 times, to put in an IV before finally calling someone from the inpatient side to put the line in. (I think it was even a peds phlebotomist.) I'm never used IV drugs or anything; I just have shitty veins. And I'm not elderly. God help me when I'm this dude's age.
>What āmedical professionalsā were these?
We have no idea, and that's intentional. In the vast, *vast* majority of lethal injection states, more statutory/regulatory attention is paid to their anonymity than their qualifications.
https://medicineandjustice.substack.com/p/lethal-injection-hates-sunlight?utm_source=activity_item&triedRedirect=true
I thought Idaho reinstated the firing squad. That would be more humane. Or carbon monoxide, that's painless, and people use it for suicide, seems to work.
Creech is a bit like Henry Lee Lucas and Otis Toole who told very fanciful stories of crimes he didn't actually commit for media attention. He's been credibly credited with at least 9 murders, but the 40 he claimed in the past is almost certainly a fantasy.
My thoughts are that decades of prison food and inactivity, along with aging, has lead to untreated/under treated health issues like diabetes, heart disease and blood pressure problems that can decrease the quality and visibility of veins. They should try and improve these guys diets and exercise a few months before execution. Might be worth it to try and prevent this from happening every other execution.
ā¦did you think this through before you commented? Youāre saying that you want the prison/government to force these people to live a better life when they know theyāre going to be executed in a few months? Thatās the worst motivator ever. Also itās cruel, and cruel and unusual punishment is illegal.
Seems to me they make execution way harder than it should be. Why not just hand a weapon to someone else thatās in there for murder and on death row, will volunteer, and let them do it? That way no one has to live with the guilt and the murderer gets his fix before he dies by execution shortly after. Cheapest and easiest!
Are you kidding me with this headline? The execution didnāt fail! The failure was in selecting competent medical staff to place an IV! Why would you even think to place a peripheral IV in the arm or leg where it could easily blow while administering meds during an execution? Wouldnāt you want IV access that was reliable?? Especially given the media coverage surrounding these events! A central line should be mandatory and it should be placed prior to the scheduled execution. I canāt believe what I just read here. 8 attempts?? And someone had to leave the room to get more IV supplies?? Sounds like amateur hour!
Okay...but why do I feel like this has been happening a lot š
At its core, it's a medical procedure. Medical professionals are not allowed to participate with executions. And, why would anyone conducting an execution care enough to do it right? I'm more surprised we even care about the ethics of execution anymore - once you make the decision that it's okay to kill people, the details seem sort of unimportant.
Right, but if you want to kill someone, and it requires doing so by injecting an intravenous medication, wouldnāt you want it to be successful? Especially if youāre trying to keep the death penalty āa thingā all while there are people actively trying to make it āno longer a thing.ā And even if medical professionals arenāt allowed to participate, canāt NON-medical professionals still be trained in performing an IV insertion? Itās not complicated. Iām a nurse and literally learned about peripheral IV insertion basics/doās and donātās in a classroom setting which took about half a day. And that included practicing on mannequin arms. If itās not for a license of any kind, it shouldnāt be difficult to train a few people. They wouldnāt even need to hire a current medical professional/teacher since Iām sure it goes against ethics. There must be countless retired doctors/nurses/paramedics/etc with years of experience who are no longer licensed, personally believe in the death penalty, and arenāt bound by any licensing authority or board in regards to medical ethics. It just doesnāt make sense to botch something so simple unless you are trying to get it banned as a practice. I know the state government wants it but maybe the participants themselves feel differently and were trying to muck up the process.
>Especially if youāre trying to keep the death penalty āa thingā all while there are people actively trying to make it āno longer a thing.ā And even if medical professionals arenāt allowed to participate, canāt NON-medical professionals still be trained in performing an IV insertion? Itā Why would it get banned? Read reddit and see how many people wish pain and suffering to prisoners - I'm not inserting my opinion on the matter, but there's a lot of revenge-based views of execution.
I donāt personally see the death penalty being abolished but that doesnāt meant that there arenāt agencies actively working to have the remaining death penalty states bring it to an end. And many pharmaceutical companies are refusing to provide the lethal injection drug pentobarbital to state prisons for the purpose of executions. So some state prisons are having to turn to compounding pharmacies who arenāt regulated by the FDA. But theyāre keeping their suppliers a secret to avoid compromising that relationship.
The secrecy is absolutely unacceptable. There should be 100% transparency of the entire process. If the drug suppliers are ok with it morally and ethically when kept under wraps, then they should be fine with it in the open too. Any medical personnel, educators, etc who participate in anything other than confirmation that the detainee is dead should never be allowed to work in medicine ever again, in any capacity.
Yeah, itās really fucked up that it even exists and they pretend that making it medical makes it okay. Like, if weāre going to execute people letās use machine guns and explosives. Make it as bloody and violent and HD as possible, so at least that way it was honest.
Reddit comments terrify me sometimes. Bring up a person's crimes and suddenly people have a million inventive ways to torture that person til death and feel okay and hell, morally righteous, as they talk about it because the person "deserves" it. And there is absolutely no convincing them that thinking that way about any human, no matter who they are, is very disturbed. And it shows the thing stopping you from becoming that level of monstrous is just a good enough excuse.
I lost my faith when my local sub had a story about a 15 year old boy who murdered a 13 year old girl. If heās tried as an adult he goes to state prison until heās 33. If tired as a juvenile he goes to prison until heās 27, but has access to a lot more service - especially for the next 5 years. The comments? He should never be let out. He should be what brings back execution here. I hope prison justice is better than state justice. (Obviously itās a complicated situation, but defaulting to vengeance is insane. Although I remember when the news covered the Ted Bundy execution parties so I shouldnāt be shocked)
Why/how did he murder her?
Agree except some of the inmates will dehydrate themselves on purpose and have poor sites for IVs left as they have had too many blowouts from IV drug use.
Or they are elderly.
There are so many things that can make an IV not easy though, even dehydration can seriously hamper that. I suspect that people who know they are going to be executed arent particularly careful to stay hydrated. I also am not sure why exactly there have been so many failed IVs but I do not think it is intentionally botched. I think they are just undertrained and in poor conditions that make it harder. If they brought in a vein finder that would probably make this problem go away, but that is also a medical device. The whole thing is one big legal mess and quite frankly I dont think it makes sense to keep going through this mess but we have to many people who really seem to get off on executions.
Who is inserting the IV? Is it not medical professionals? I thought it would be them with the prison employees injecting the meds.
Participating in an event execution violates their oath, so itās just someone from the prison trained to do it. Even a well trained veteran nurse can struggle to do it when dealing with someone old and sick. The fact that they missed 8 times is no surprise.
Yeah, my mom is elderly and was recently in the hospital where they tried 6-8 times to insert an iv and failed.
And they probably didnāt want her dead.
Probably is about all I'd say for them. The rest of the experience wasn't any more pleasant, and they nearly did kill her.
Geez. A nurse has the opportunity to practice as well. I wonder why they don't try to utilize an ultrasound doppler for this.
Why would they invest in that stuff? Itās expensive. Itās not used often. It requires training. And the people who would use it are there to kill people - not make their lives comfortable.
Ultrasound was recommended by the Oklahoma committee that investigated Clayton Lockett's botched execution, but that's not binding on other states and requires training and familiarization unto itself.
Paramedics.
Not necessarily. According to Idaho's execution SOP, "Medical Team" membership requires merely three years of healthcare experience to include IV training (paraphrased).
This is untrue. 35 states REQUIRE a medical professional to take part in the execution. Others use retired medical professionals and they are immune from the ethics of such.
23 states have eliminated the death penalty, and another 6 have put a moratorium on them. So, at most 21 states could require them to do them. And of those, they may require a physician, but it looks to be an advisory or observatory role. Anesthesiologists who participate in executions will lose their careers on the grounds of ethics violations.
I'm going to cut that person a break here: a lot of states have dead-letter lethal injection protocols even though they've banned (or...moratoried?) capital punishment.
This is true to an extent, but I haven't yet come across a protocolary requirement that screams "guaranteed to succeed on a hard stick," which death row inmates are in several categories of disproportionate likelihood of being.
How unethical would it be to get someone already serving life to do the execution somehow? I bet there's even doctors serving life that have killed!
LOL extremely
One possibility: the inability of the nursing staff. I would imagine there arenāt a lot of them that are willing to do this work and good ones would work elsewhere. I have a family member that has to have a specialist come in every time they get an IV set.
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Bruh doctors aren't ordering you euthanize a human being. yall forgot what they did to Kevorkian way too fast. ETA and those were people who wanted to die. Unlike almost all the death row inmates.
Naw, your commentās not creepy and disturbing at all.
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Not really better
I just said that before I read your comment š my theory is that decades of prison food and inactivity, along with aging, has lead to untreated/under treated health issues like diabetes, heart disease and blood pressure problems that can decrease the quality and visibility of veins. They should try and improve these guys diets and exercise a few months before execution. Might be worth it to try and prevent this from happening every other execution.
Lol sure. Hey man, before we can execute you, we need you to lose 20 lbs and drop that blood sugar. Get to it!
Valid point. Not quite the same, but former/current IV drug users w/ shot out veins are susceptible to things like this also. So many collapsed veins from pinning & trying to find any good veins they have left. Many will start injecting into their hands & feet even. Very painful. Dmn near impossible to find a decent vein to work with for setting up IV lines medically.
All you have to do is not eat or drink anything for a week before your execution. Youāll get so dehydrated they wonāt be able to find a vein.
Just two or three days would be enough for a lot of ppl. Doesn't take much, especially for those with less prominent or damaged veins.
Not drinking anything between midnight and 9am was enough for me before my surgery. They finally let me drink a bottle of water and got an IV into me, lol.
Same for me and many others. I have to drink a metric ton of water throughout the prior day or no dice for me. & boy is it fun when they can't get a vein & start digging.. both arms. Back and forth. In & out with needle in the same pin while trying different angles. "Rolly veins they say".. I have another word for it.. "Torture", motherfucker! š
Thatās wild. Cruel and unusual punishment - exactly why they stopped this one!
Ugh i hate when they say that š¤£ hmm is that code for you dont know what you're doing? Seriously tho ill give em two sticks then im done for that day, we can try again another time
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Lemon juice? Gotdamn
I said the same thing in another thread. Prisoners arenāt a young and healthy bunch. And most death row inmates are executed, not within a couple of years of their crime, but 20+ years later, when theyāre elderly. Their vasculature system is old and weak, and possibly in much worse shape if they have peripheral artery disease, gout, CHF, diabetes, any stage of kidney disease/on dialysis, or any autoimmune disease. They should know what theyāre working withā¦
Prison isn't exactly a life-lengthening environment, even if you're *not* on Death Row--I don't know any actual stats, but it seems that people who die in prison tend to be significantly younger, on average, than those who die on the outside, and frankly I'm a bit surprised this guy is still around at 73. At this point, they might as well just wait and let him die naturally, rather than put everyone, staff included, through another botched execution. (Now watch him live another 15 years or so...)
Obesity. Drug use, believe it or not. Sedentary lifestyle. Old age, by the time their appeals work themselves out. If you wanted to make yourself a hard stick, it's hard to find a better way.
Iām a nurse and have to put IVs in people a lot. Itās hard sometimes and I have tons of an experience. Iām sure these technicians donāt do it a ton and thereās obviously a lot of pressure in the moment.
Iāve heard they sometimes dehydrate themselves to make IV insertion impossible.
Yep one time I was so sick that I couldn't drink and had to go to the ER extremely dehydrated. Literally took them 15 tries to get it in my vein
If he did do that and he is that determined to live for whatever reason (despite having been in prison for the entirety of my parents lives), I say let him. As long as he spends the rest of it in prison where he can't hurt anyone. I consider protection to the main purpose of the justice system, so a sentence that lasts the rest of your natural life is pretty much just as effective for achieving that.
Itās not that hard to kill someone. What the fuck?
He was convicted of five murders. Maybe he should just pick one of those ways to be done away with for himself.Ā
But said heās killed dozens
I read he'd admitted to 26 murders, that he either committed himself or was involved in; was "the most prolific serial killer in Idaho", wasn't he?
Yeah but heās lied about many of those murders in order to stall his death dateā¦ so they did that so they could talk to him and solve these cold cases and they figured out he lied. So basically heās another Henry Lee Lucas. He also enjoys toying with the police and with the families emotionās and he enjoys the attention
Ahh, okay, that makes sense now. Thank you for the info šš«¶š»
I never understood this. If they suffocated or shot their victims why is the perpetrator too good for that method as well? America is so weird. We painlessly put dogs down everyday but we botch executions regularly in states that allow it bc they don't allow certain proven methods.
And to sit on death row for thirty years.Ā
They have to get every appeal. If we're not going to completely ban the death penalty, then we need to do everything we can to make sure that we're not putting innocent people to death. You can let someone out of jail if you're wrong, you can't resurrect them. But honestly feel like we need to just end of the death penalty nationwide.
Because the state is not supposed to be another thug.
And yetā¦.. *gestures wildly around
Because it isn't about what the perp is "too good for" It is about what they did is inhumane and that is why they were put in jail. So why on earth would doing the same thing become better because the state sanctioned it? If we can't be better than murderers then what is frankly the point. And that is before you remember the people killed on death row who were INNOCENT.
Because itās insane to let the government have that much power?
Right? Makes literally no sense.
Using $87,937 exotic chemicals to execute convicted murderers; and then it fails. Using $8.00 worth of pure Mexican fentanyl which works 100% of the time, priceless.
An $8 bullet would do the trick
You need a better bullet guy if youāre paying $8/bullet
Bullets should cost $5000, because if bullets cost $5000 there would be no more innocent bystanders... people watching would be like DAMN he had to have done something, they just put $50,000 worth of bullets in his ass. - Chris Rock
I thought Idaho was bringing back the firing squad for executions for exactly this reason? Because so called "humane " executions don't always work. I thought this was happening since they arrested Brian Kohberger they've been talking about it. Maybe they need to start with this guy
Surely they could automate the guns to fire so no human needs to pull the trigger at the time. Though someone would still need to program it.
If I was to be executed, I would want it done like this.... Inject patient with 6mg of Xanax, wait until they are virtually unconscious. (Few minutes) Then administer an injection of 500mg of morphine. Easiest and most enjoyable death I can think of.
Several states have looked into new or revived execution methods as lethal injection keeps failing (or, more accurately, as manufacturers and activists keep making it harder to get drugs).
I don't get it why can't we just put a mask on them and pump it full of carbon monoxide. Easy, plentiful, painless, they fall asleep and die. Super common way to kill yourself in a car so why is it not ok here?
Suppliers may refuse to provide inert gasses. That is the issue with the drugs for lethal injection.
Genuine question - is nitrogen different, in terms of getting it supplied for the execution? It worries me that gassing prisoners is, potentially, going to become commonplace. Especially after how badly Kenneth Eugene Smith reacted to it earlier this year.
it worries you that gassing would be commonplace? Versus the horrible deaths with injections going on? You want them to suffer?
Oh, no, not at all! I hadn't even thought about the awful affects of the injection when I posted that, tbh. No, I don't want them to suffer; I feel (if a death penalty were appropriate in a case) the firing squad should be used. Idk, I don't live in the States so idk the politics, nor the ins and outs of executions. I just..reading about what happened to Smith via nitrogen hypoxia was horrific, and I'd hate for that to become a "go-to", y'know?
Death penalty fans object to the 'painless' part. Really. They don't want the prisoner to enjoy dying, but they can't be so cruel that they trip into 'cruel and unusual'. If we must, I think old-school is the way. Madame Guillotine would be my choice.
It's more because "gas chamber" sounds more horrific to the public
yeah but it doesn't have to be a "chamber" you put a mask on them like at the dentist's office and let them slip into oblivion. I truly don't get it. It's cheap, easy to produce (I mean you can hook your car exhaust up if you need to) painless and ALWAYS works. It makes no sense to me. I don't get why we're so attached to lethal injection when prisons can't get the proper drugs anymore and it's so easy to mess up. Gas is so easy and you don't need to deal with any medical or drug companies. And shit, if you WON'T do that why not go back to hanging? When designed properly it always works, it's instant and there is no clean up (as long as they wear a diaper.) I don't get it. Fucking morons running this clown show.
I do get where you're coming from. From Googling it, some people are also concerned about carbon monoxide leaking to others in the area, besides the bad PR. Personally, I think if we are going to do it, the best method is firing squad, and I agree that we are a bit to hung up (no pun intended) on lethal injection.
but firing squad is violent and has a messy clean up. And someone has to actually shoot a gun at someone (even if it's multiple people some with blanks.) Gas in a mask in a separate room would be totally safe how could that leak? And hanging while seeming violent is again fast, painless with no clean up. All anyone is doing is pulling a lever they could be in another room completely not visible or connected to the person getting executed. None of this needs to be hard or messy or violent or inhumane yet here we are. None of it makes sense.
Interesting choice of word calling them āfansā, but as someone who supports the death penalty in extreme cases I think I can give a bit of insight. Itās not that I think they need to be tortured to death, I just find it hard to be sympathetic to a relatively minor amount of suffering when they themselves caused untold amounts of suffering to their victims.
yeah but all of these fuck ups make the news. it brings attention to these people again for no reason. it creates unnecessary suffering, attention, work for the prison staff, etc. If you're going to kill someone just do it and get it over with, this whole not being able to find veins, or it not working, or the mistakes making the news...honestly it's not good for anyone involved. There is no reason to not just turn the person off in the easiest, quickest, most efficient manner and be done with it.
I think this is what a lot of people feelādeath penalty is serious and not a fun thing, but in some cases itās a necessity to protect the public. Reddit just wants to treat it like a binary.
These comments are disturbing. Hope you all never know anyone wrongfully sent to death row.
Right??? True crime has rotted peoples brains
Yeah! AND THOSE VIOLENT VIDEO GAMES TOO!! š
Turns out sadistic content attracts sadistic people.
If the government is going to execute people, they should get one shot. If it fails just commute their sentence to life with no parole
Yeah. I don't think the government should have the right to execute citizens, in the first place - even the psychos. But if the government is too inept to get it right, well, then I think they've had their chance and blown it.
Exactly
You would think that failing and then rescheduling it would constitute cruel and unusual punishment.
No joke... I thought they ALRRADY had this implemented
How about if it fails automatic firing squad? Do you know how expensive it is to keep them?
It's more expensive to kill them. It takes more lawyers.
Sunk cost + plenty of cheap executions around the world. Your entire premise is based upon bureaucracy in selected countries only and not any technicality.Ā
Once theyāre on death row tho the money has already been wasted so might as well keep trying, all that money in appeals and stuff ā¦adios
I will never understand why this happens. Working in the veterinary world for many years, I have NEVER seen a euthanasia fail, ever. Including a 200 pound dog.
thatās because youve seen medical professionals perform the task, not randos
Basically two major reasons, pretty much all medical professions of relevant training have codes of ethics that ban them from participating in capital punishment beyond very specific actions such as(but not entirely limited to) providing pain relief pre-execution if requested by the inmate, and certifying the inmates death after a third party has already declared death. T This means that the people actually performing the execution will often be untrained or have less than ideal training, though sometimes legitimate doctors and nurses will do it under conditions of anonymity. Secondly, medical suppliers generally disapprove of their products being used in capital punishment against unwilling participants, so prisons will often turn to less reputable suppliers, or use alternatives that in theory should have similar effects to the conventional lethal injection mixture.
If i was on death row iād rather be shot in the back of the head with all these botched executions
I believe in the past, when certain kinds of executions failed, they most often let the prisoner live. It was seen as an act of God. https://discover.hubpages.com/literature/10-PEOPLE-WHO-SURVIVED-EXECUTION-BY-HANGING
He sounds like the exact case that makes me less than completely opposed to the death penalty. "Oh he's a changed man!" Maybe you should have made that change before you killed multiple people. He probably purposefully dehydrated himself so they had trouble with the veins.
That was my first thought was he probably did dehydrate himself. I definitely would. I was in rehab for alcoholism not too long ago, and my first day they did blood work. It was done eventually, but my dehydration caused it to be tougher than needed.
Good on you for getting help. Very responsible, I hope recovery goes well
How could they not establish an IV? What āmedical professionalsā were these? It took 7 or 8 tries and they couldnāt get a line? Did they have students trying for the first time on him? I watch ER nurses get 18 gauge lines into 99 year old dehydrated confused combative folks daily. They really must not have their best and brightest working at this. Probably because of ethics.
Medical professionals are not allowed to assist in executions, it violates the Hippocratic Oath.
Do phlebotomists swear the Hippocratic oath?
Who's hiring the guy that helps kill people? Asking as a nurse. First time shit goes wrong they're looking at you as a liability because for profit hc is bs that way.
You realize that oath is a tradition and does not affect your license or have any legal ramifications, right? The licensing boards are against it, and thatās why physicians donāt take part.
I never took an oath
Assisted suicide is legal in some states
Assisted suicide is done to a willing patient to put an end to their suffering. The people being executed donāt sign up for it.
Well, this was karma.
You donāt disregard an oath to do no harm just because the person is an asshole. Thatās the entire point of the oath, that it applies to everyone.
Seems like A LOT of people in this thread donāt know this.Ā
His veins might be trash. Iāve loaded with water and failed for attempts just for mri contrast, and thatās not abnormal for me. I walk 2-3mi around 5 days a week most weeks, blood work is fine, normal weight and not obese, and Iām not tiny. Iām 5ā8. My veins just suck no matter how much I drink the days before. The needles are provably big too.
Yeah, my veins are completely unreliable. It's very annoying.
Yeah but Iāve never seen even the worst patients take 8 tries at the hospital. Iāve seen them go atypical places when they canāt get a line in the arm but never failing like this.
They don't have a medical professional helping to kill people tho. It's not the hospital at all.
Right, which is why I am commenting on how bad this is. People might not know a lot about IV insertion. Iām here to say that 8 tries is a shitshow.
Yea sorry. They said it's "volunteers' with hidden identities. Sounds like they slipped the janitors 20 bucks and told them to watch grays anatomy to do it 'right'
I know a bunch of drug addicts who could hit any vein.
The more atypical a vein you have to try for, the quicker it gets outside your scope of practice. This is not a problem in a hospital, when a specialist (or at least someone who's good at it) is a phone call away; execution chambers don't have that luxury. (As they shouldn't.)
Exactly. I learned what I learned to help people. Not kill them.
āThree medical team members tried eight times to establish an IV, Corrections Director Josh Tewalt told a news conference afterward. In some cases, they couldnāt access the vein, and in others they could but had concerns about vein quality. They attempted sites in his arms, legs, hands and feet. At one point, a medical team member left to gather more supplies. The execution team was made up entirely of volunteers, the corrections department said. Those tasked with inserting the IVs and administering the lethal drug had medical training, but their identities were kept secret. They wore white balaclava-style face coverings and navy scrub caps to conceal their faces.ā When I had my second back surgery it took a weird vein finder light, several nurses, then they called someone from icu, and even then I woke up with brand new iv lines post op cus nothing anyone tried was working well enough. It happens.
It's often hard to get a vein on me. When I had my tilt table test, they asked me to not drink any water for 12 hours, so I was a bit dehydrated. They (2 nurses) tried at least 6, but I am pretty sure it was actually 8 times, to put in an IV before finally calling someone from the inpatient side to put the line in. (I think it was even a peds phlebotomist.) I'm never used IV drugs or anything; I just have shitty veins. And I'm not elderly. God help me when I'm this dude's age.
>What āmedical professionalsā were these? We have no idea, and that's intentional. In the vast, *vast* majority of lethal injection states, more statutory/regulatory attention is paid to their anonymity than their qualifications. https://medicineandjustice.substack.com/p/lethal-injection-hates-sunlight?utm_source=activity_item&triedRedirect=true
Exactly!
Just go back to multiple bullet injections
I thought Idaho reinstated the firing squad. That would be more humane. Or carbon monoxide, that's painless, and people use it for suicide, seems to work.
He killed 5 people in different States. So, 4 more tries he still gets off easier than his victims and their families
8. Heās, probably a cat. One more try should do it.
Convicted of 5, credited with 11 and confessed to 43.
Death sentence for killing an inmate? And it's botched of course.
And like 40 other people
Creech is a bit like Henry Lee Lucas and Otis Toole who told very fanciful stories of crimes he didn't actually commit for media attention. He's been credibly credited with at least 9 murders, but the 40 he claimed in the past is almost certainly a fantasy.
My thoughts are that decades of prison food and inactivity, along with aging, has lead to untreated/under treated health issues like diabetes, heart disease and blood pressure problems that can decrease the quality and visibility of veins. They should try and improve these guys diets and exercise a few months before execution. Might be worth it to try and prevent this from happening every other execution.
We are gonna kill you so you need to start doing 10 laps around the yard twice a day š
ā¦did you think this through before you commented? Youāre saying that you want the prison/government to force these people to live a better life when they know theyāre going to be executed in a few months? Thatās the worst motivator ever. Also itās cruel, and cruel and unusual punishment is illegal.
We need the gas chamber
Seems to me they make execution way harder than it should be. Why not just hand a weapon to someone else thatās in there for murder and on death row, will volunteer, and let them do it? That way no one has to live with the guilt and the murderer gets his fix before he dies by execution shortly after. Cheapest and easiest!
I can think of plenty of reasons not to give a convicted murderer facing death themselves a loaded firearm, Jesus Christ
Perhaps I shouldāve specified with one bullet only. Besides I was only joking. I know this isnāt the answer.
Then be the gender u were born to be
Yes itās a āfailed executionā but only because they couldnāt even establish an IV. He didnāt suffer.
Are you kidding me with this headline? The execution didnāt fail! The failure was in selecting competent medical staff to place an IV! Why would you even think to place a peripheral IV in the arm or leg where it could easily blow while administering meds during an execution? Wouldnāt you want IV access that was reliable?? Especially given the media coverage surrounding these events! A central line should be mandatory and it should be placed prior to the scheduled execution. I canāt believe what I just read here. 8 attempts?? And someone had to leave the room to get more IV supplies?? Sounds like amateur hour!
Thereās lots of unused fentanyl out there
.45 caliber lead injection to the brain requires no veins or arteries