Some do not fit into these levels. I’m thinking of the men who do a little more than their fair share of housework, mental labor, and financial contributions, but still make misogynistic jokes, ask you to change your clothes into something more modest before leaving the house, and refuse to continue the relationship if you ever make more money than they do. I call these types the Control Freaks.
Most I encounter are Level 0-3. I was married once to a Level 5, but, he was polite enough to die as I was in the process of throwing him out so I get his Social Security starting next year and it'll be a nice chunk :)
My fiancè is a level 0, my two exes were level 2's. My Dad himself is a level 1.
My mom and sister are level 4's, which has messed with my mind in a number of ways.
Most men I encounter at work are level 3's, especially ones that identify is libertarians. Most men throughout my time in college and the workforce have been level 3's, the bitterness is thick with them.
EDIT: Edited for cohesion.
Your mother and sister being the worst is something. Being surrounded by misogynistic men is awful, but it’s almost worse when they’re validated by women.
I’m happy that your dad and your fiancé are better. Enjoy your healthy relationship ❤️
Thanks.
The issues with my mom and sister are a rabbit hole of abuse and manipulation that lasted from birth until my late 20s. I can't even begin to dive into it in this context. I've been to therapy about it and holy hell there was a lot of it.
It was really confusing because my mom would oscillate between being anti-religious and a rebel who hated other women because she assumed they were jealous, to a super-religious holier than thou type who hated other women because she assumed they were sinful.
It was... so confusing and unpredictable. ☹️
Fun question! I have two answers:
- At work: Level 5's everywhere. I work with sex offenders so it might even rank a level 6 and I might be cheating by including them lol. Coworkers are great for the most part, though.
- In my life now (early 30's): Mostly level 0's, some level 1's, and one or two guys that are probably level 2's. Everyone above that level gets phased out.
This is the real answer.
[This post](https://www.reddit.com/r/TwoXChromosomes/s/A5CxI2Qai6) from a few weeks ago talked about how often men can just "turn off" their feelings one day and start treating their partners and spouses like garbage. Most of us are just a flip of the switch away from being someone who fills their heart to someone who fills a function.
Husband - level 0, total rejection of gender roles here. He cooks, I take the trash out, I do laundry, he does most of the cleaning, our income is within a hair of each other, 48-52%.
Ex-boyfriends - depending on who we're talking about, mostly level 1. Good relationships with women in family but leaned towards a protector mindset. One may have leaned towards level 2, but we didn't date for long enough for me to know for sure how it would have worked out.
Family - dad, level 1, grandfather - level 1, uncle, level 2, cousin, level 1.
Male friends - mostly level 1 -2, depending on the individual. Generally well-intentioned and fully reject sexism and misogyny in theory, but occasionally succumb to their more selfish impulses.
I know level 4 and 5 men exist, but I don't believe I've ever met them IRL so it's a bit odd for me to realize they exist. I know a few ex-boyfriends of friends who were at level 3.
"Look, I don't see how we're going to get past these things if you keep harping on it." ... classic DARVO nonsense. The *real* problem isn't their misbehavior, it's people calling them on it.
I'm not a woman, but asked my sister who's with me right now. She says; her current fiancé a 0, our dad and me a 0, her latest ex a 2, her first boyfriend a 3. My boyfriend she gives a 0 as well.
It looks like your sister is surrounded by men who truly have her best interests at heart :) I’m very happy for her (for you also, since your boyfriend seems to be a gem).
Honestly I don’t know how to really answer that. I just know misogyny runs deep in American society. Over the years when things come up I have told him how certain topics affect women. In an ideal situation I would have been better about screening him in the beginning but obviously I did not notice all the signs. I think if he had not changed some of the negative misogynistic beliefs/behaviors I would not have stayed with him. My hope is that he will continue to reflect and learn, I guess that’s all I can hope for. Plus having three daughters he probably will be learning more as time goes on I’m sure 😅
My conversation with a guy once went like this:
“Girls don’t have any hobbies. All they know is dumb stuff like which celebrities are dating”
Me: “I don’t think that’s true. Most of my female friends have lots of hobbies. Like reading, knitting, painting, practicing yoga…”
Him: “ANYONE can do those things”
(I don’t think he’s clear on what makes something a hobby. I don’t know why men are gatekeeping hobbies now but that’s a thing in case you’ve been lucky enough to not encounter it yet).
I’m not sure where exactly the conversation went then [full disclosure, we were drunk] but at one point he started listing his hobbies and I kid you not, the main one was WATCHING ANIME.
This infuriated me to no end because - I’m sorry - can’t ANYONE watch anime? Like that doesn’t even require skill (and no, he doesn’t speak Japanese, we’re talking dubbed or captioned). I really think his main frustration was not meeting girls who like the same video games and anime shows he likes. In their sad little boy brains that means we’re all dumb and “don’t have hobbies.”
I FUCKING HATE that this has become such a huge thing.. All men care about is anime, sports and cars and they want women who like those same things??? Like go date a man. It's infuriating.... I'm sick and tired of men saying "reality TV is trash."
Like really? All you idiots watch is "good guy bad guy big fight" type shit
Haha I know. But trust me there are guys not like all that.
This is why I end up with older dudes which has a different set of challenges. I *cannot* with the video games and the anime shows and the Joe Rogan-esque podcasts. Here’s hoping they grow out of it for yall. 🍹
Most men that I meet are level 1 or 2. My ex was level 5 but was apt at pretending to be a level 0 for as long as it took for his exes, including me, to become circumstantially trapped with him.
I have met some so-called 0s that were actually 3s. Also 1s that were actually 4s.
Never met a true 0. If I ever do, and we are mutually attracted, I would consider dating him. Right now, I am very relieved to be single.
This can't be stated enough: until we become circumstantially trapped with them. My God. So common, yet we keep trying to get back to the good old days. Year after year, failing. Because they're gone, baby, gone for good.
My husband is naturally a 0 but he does work full time (considerable more most of the time) and I work like 6 hours a week tops outside the home for extra spending money and to get some social interaction. Thus, I do the vast majority of the housework and all the cooking. Even after 7 years together he still asks to make sure I really don't want him to pick up any of the chores, and he respects my no when I tell him "Nah dude, you've worked nearly 70 hours this week, go play video games while you've got the time. I already got to relax earlier when I took a break and when I'm done in an hour I can play my own."
I'm mostly saying this because I don't want women who are happy with this sort of arrangement and in fact prefer it to feel gross about it. You shouldn't. If you like staying at home doing domestic things, that's fine. If you don't, having a job/career and expecting your partner to pick up 50% of the domestic labor is also fine. Do what works for you and your partner.
Now, the rest of the dudes out there? Mostly level 2, 3, and 4 (I lived in the south and was forced to attend a southern Baptist church and school for a while as a kid). Would dump any single one of them the instant I caught a whiff and y'all should too.
I think my husband is about a 0.5. He's very feminist, very outspoken when he hears friends say misogynistic or sexist things, and is open to having all sorts of discussions. We are childfree, and we share duties regarding finances, but chores are very much a sticking point. I have to remind him to do things and ask for help, and I get very frustrated that it's "help" and not him doing his part. Nevertheless, we're working on it, and there's been improvement.
My girlfriend and I are in a very similar situation. I struggle to see and do chores fast enough, and it’s been a pain point for us. We have talked about how chores occupy different parts of our brain, and it was a very interesting and weird conversation. When my gf sees something that needs to get taken care of (laundry, dishes, etc), she feels a physical *pull* and *urge* to correct it, and I don’t get that at all. Not sure how much of it is tied to her OCD vs internalized sexism, though.
Interesting viewpoint. My husband and I had a similar conversation but slightly different POV. The way I explained it to him, is that there are certain chores he does consistently (like the cat litter tray and hoovering) because them not being done bothers him, but the rest he fully admits he will just put off until he feels like doing them, which can be a long time. But if that's like 90% of it, it feels like he's leaving the rest to me to do. It's not, but the gap between when I'd do it and when he'd do it can be weeks, and I'm not even particularly quick to do stuff.
It really helped us to see how the other perceives it and adjust it.
I hope y'all have found/are finding a workable method.
There's a whole cocktail of stuff that likely contributes to the urge to *correct immediately and not one minute later*, and I don't have OCD, but I do very much have a lot of internalized sexism/gender expectations/all of the above that contribute to me doing it straightaway.
My husband (and more so when we were dating and living together) would tell me, "Just tell me what to do!" And I'd get so frustrated because I still found myself the de facto house manager and not an equal partner. He'd say to give him chores, to write out expectations, etc. And I once fell for that trap, and you know what? He didn't follow through. That was a huge frustration and pain point, and we've made some strides, but man. It's tough.
Yeah, we tried that same thing and it also didn’t work for us. What I’ve been doing recently (and it’s going much better) is framing things as “if I spend five minutes now, it’ll make her much more comfortable”. I genuinely am not bothered by things in the same way she is, so I dedicate the first half-hour or so after work to putting myself in her mindset to try and alleviate some of the load.
>I dedicate the first half-hour or so after work to putting myself in her mindset to try and alleviate some of the load.
Nice! That's a good strategy that respects her needs.
I'm part Asian part middle eastern. LoL.
I grew up with male cousins my age who got all the attention from family because they were the ones who would "carry the lineage". They got better gifts, expensive cars, got signed up for classes, were the favorites... This was mostly attention from grandparents and older uncles.
One of my uncles in particular is exceptionally racist and misogynistic (on the Asian side). Surprisingly, the middle eastern side isn't racist at all and much less misogynistic, maybe a level 2. Like it's just ingrained in them so they don't even realize it. (For example being shocked that I'm good with computers and robots and technology! But, they find it cool so it's all good. I get that for someone born in the 1930s and 40s in the middle east seeing women in tech is shocking)
That racist sexist uncle? Yeah... We were on vacation living with his family as he lived in the country side. Me and my cousins snuck out to go play. I was 13, my cousins (both boys) were 14 and 12. When we got back he punished me because I snuck out of the house with boys and he wouldn't believe me when I said we just went to ride our bikes. To him, it was unacceptable that me and my cousins were so close. It was wrong.
Granted, we did some sexual stuff together😂 (like the first dick I ever saw was my cousin's but it was innocent kids "show me yours I'll show you mine" we never did anything more and never would have). We were kids. We went to steal oranges from a neighbor and made a music video of us B-boying and parkouring! 😂 My cousins were so angry at him they threatened to never go on vacation with him. My parents couldn't say anything to him though, because he was an "elder". I just remember my mom very calmly telling him his behaviour was unacceptable and that we were kids.
He is an all around nasty man. The number of times me and my siblings who are among the youngest in the family have had to leave the room when he's talking because we just can't sit and listen to his racist rants is astonishing. He actually uses racial slurs and talks about a black acquaintance of his he used to work with in the 80s in the most disgusting manner possible. The rage I felt the first time I heard him drop the N word I almost cried. His poor wife spent all her life cooking for him. He makes her dress in modest traditional clothing whenever someone visited. I don't think I ever saw her in casual clothing.
So... I've seen the worst. Growing up in the east I've seen this plenty of times, btw. This uncle is just a very close example. It's surprising how the rest of the family is different from him. I think he's just a bitter old man who was super smart but never got to achieve anything major. Btw, the man is highly educated! Has two masters degrees one in chemical engineering and one in politics. He has a study filled with books in 4 languages. He's well read. He reads and writes poetry.
You would think someone with that much knowledge would be less of a misogynistic racist closeminded conservative ass...but nope.
Oh nice poll
And very nice rating scale, yours or some reference's I'm curious if there's more on this topic?
I did more than a life sentence with a level 5 so my view won't be representative
Level 0 I see rising through my lifetime but still a rare minority. Maybe 5-10% more so in more recent generations we should have some hope.
Level 1 for the men that for the most part haven't had a big ego or shame knock. Male culture is brutal at times and especially on that. So here sit the solid well adjusted men a generous 10-15% maybe.
Level 2 a solid 25-30% more in good families or friendship dynamics if you can find your people. I don't blame anyone for not standing up to a level 4/5 thats a society problem imo
Level 3 25-30% rising significantly in certain professions, more adversarial hobbies. I feel like there's an age factor here also.
Level 4 a nasty 15% in general but I think for the people who experience this it's actually their whole world.
Level 5 a very dangerous 5-10% and also rising
Will be fascinated to see how others view this.
Nope, it’s mine :)
I agree with your distribution but I think it also depends on where you live. Some parts of the world are chock full of 3s, 4s and 5s.
Nice categorization ;)
Oh I wonder whether geography would correlate to something like happiness index.
Definitely agree there are many factors that would influence distribution across different groups.
Thanks for posting fascinating thinking
https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2023/10/new-paper-explores-the-rise-of-incels/
This says it better than I could, but not much research done to date.
Edit tldr it's breading online
My (male) best friend falls between 0 and 1 and the majority of men I interact with are between 1 and 2 with a couple trying to educate themselves toward 0.
I’ve (thankfully) only met one level 3/5 man. He was supposedly a diehard feminist and had built an entire reputation around being very progressive. We hung out a few times before he shamed me for my sexual preferences and how I am during sex (moaning and that sorta thing), asked me if I had been m*lested as a child in the same conversation, then became violent toward me later that evening during sex before calling the cops on me and blasting me online as violent and psychotic despite my actions being exclusively in self defense. An actual predator with an entire community backing him because “he’s not like that with them”. Insult to injury, he was also homophobic towards wlw/lesbians specifically. Absolutely insane.
My ex was Level 3 and getting worse. He wasn't a cheater. He was surprised when I left and acted like I didn't communicate or spend years trying to fix it and beg him to get therapy before giving up in the last year. He was *checks notes* "looking for a couples therapist" the night before I left him. It was too little too late. The article "she divorced me because I left dishes by the sink" (without the realization or self reflection) and the comic "you should have asked" really resonated with my ex's version of sexism.
I feel like a lot of the men you talk to, you kind of expect them to be level 1s or 0s just from how they express themselves. the more you get to know them and peel back the layers they actually are a 2 or 3. Source: went to art high school and college and spent years surrounded by “liberal” open minded guys.
Also tons of comments saying their SO is a 0. This is Reddit and people are sometimes more “feminist” leaning but I don’t really buy it. Almost every man I know has shown some misogyny, whether it’s even on a small accidental scale. That’s not to say I don’t know a lot of really great guys who I’m happy to have in my life
> I feel like a lot of the men you talk to, you kind of expect them to be level 1s or 0s just from how they express themselves. the more you get to know them and peel back the layers they actually are a 2 or 3.
I think it's especially prevalent in younger generations where many boys were raised (explicitly and implicitly) to at least give lip-service to feminist (and other progressive) issues, so many of them will talk the talk without ever bothering to walk the walk. :/
Never met a 0, 1 or 2.
Most exes started out as 3 and escalated to a plain, not religious version of 4. Basically the 'Why does he do that' levels of control, misogyny, possessiveness, unwarranted jealousy and abuse. Expected me to do 200% of housework, chores, mental load, emotional labor while they acted single. They were all regular, middle class, white or blue collar guys. Completely average.
I have never met a man who isn’t a little misogynistic. Not even one. I’ve had this conversation with female friends and they all share the same experience. ALL men, they don’t have our perspective to understand that. But the difference is some of them, very very few, actually care and are empathic, and want to learn. These are the ones who listen and let you share your experience of life, and they actually shape their behavior and do better. This is RARE. The majority of men I have bet fall in between 2-4 depending on their experience with women relationship-wise, and their religious/political beliefs
I think a level is missing. I'd move every category up 1 number and add a new level 0. I feel like level 0 men do everything in the current level 1 but also actively work against the patriarchy by calling out other men on their sexist bullshit, educating themselves on gender politics and systems that hurt women, and openly and willingly listening to women talk about their experiences/struggles with misogyny.
I also think level 0 men emotionally self regulate themselves to not place emotional load on the women in their lives - especially when hearing about female oppression since it might initially trigger defensiveness or the desire to preemptively defend their own pro-woman stance. Instead, they're conscious of making others feel listened to and not sidetracking the convo with their feelings.
My current partner does all that and more. I've known him for 4+ years and we were friends first so I know it's not for show. It's actually what made me take interest. He's actively proud of me on the daily for being assertive and outspoken even when I take him to task, loves how intelligent and powerful I am, and did not give a second thought to me eventually being the primary breadwinner once I'm done with med school. He doesn’t believe it emasculates him at all but instead tells me how proud he is to be my partner. He never has joked at my expense either in private or with others. He eagerly embraces household management and childrearing duties. He actively takes things off my plate without needing to be asked, takes great efforts to communicate even during disagreements very respectfully, and is the only man I’ve ever felt 100% emotionally and physically safe around without question.
And it's great especially since he's very outspoken and assertive and most dudes would think he's kind of a "guy's guy" initially. He's a natural leader and has a take charge attitude. He comes off as really confident and sure of himself to strangers. This all comes in handy when he challenges then men in his life for their sexist bullshit.
What's interesting is that he will admit in his teenage years and early life that he struggled with gender roles. He used to struggle with a lot of misogynistic thinking. He had an abusive mother to whom he attributes those initial negative feelings about women but says that the fact he felt pressure to "man up" about the abuse just reinforced negative thinking even further. He said he ended up angry at the world and eventually depressed to the point of being suicidal.
So he decided to go through therapy. He did a ton of work on himself and discovered that misogyny was what made him feel so miserable. Misogyny is what told him he couldn't cry or reach out to friends or ask for help about his feelings regarding his abuse. Misogyny told him he wasn’t worth taking care of. Misogyny told him he needed to prove his worth via displays of strength and economic success. He was able to unpack all those feelings and still regularly attends therapy 10 years later just for maintenance.
This is both so cool to me and also so depressing. It's cool to me because it's proof that men can fix their own negative ideas and grow their own emotional intelligence without outsourcing their emotional labor to their partners. It's depressing because so many men would not even consider doing so.
I adore this man. If we ever break up, I’d just be single. I love helping him, doting on him, and taking care of him when he needs some loving, because it’s never an obligation and it’s always reciprocated when I need the same without hesitation. I am so proud of him and respect him so much. He doesn’t want for anything. I love to make his life easier and better because of the love he’s shown me. (And for the record, I’m throwing this last part in not to brag but because I’m hoping some of the men lurking will read this and it will spark something in them to do the work so they can have the kind of relationship they truly desire.)
Yes, I agree. Another Redditor mentioned this too, that zero in this list still isn’t ideal because believing women and men are equal is simply not true. Zero in this scale still includes sexism/misogyny for sure. I agree that most men have not done the work in therapy (that you described) to unlearn all this. And most don’t actively push back. All you have to do is goto a women’s march / protest - see how few men there are compared to women. So many men just don’t care about this stuff.
Maybe unpopular opinion, but the goal should not be someone who believes in gender equality. The ideal is someone who knows that women are still treated in many ways unequally in our society, but they aim to help balance it. With that being said, my exes have been a 2 and 3.
I agree. I would say that was be below zero (in this description), feminist ally. The description of level zero is definitely still a level of misogyny, believing things are equal when they are **very** much not.
I could be reading it wrong, but my understanding was that this is more applied misogyny in a relationship. I think relationships can and should have equality. Societally is very different.
Kind of like how a dude can not be toxically masculine but also not understand what toxic masculinity is. Or that toxic masculinity isn't just harmful to women, but society in general and men themselves. Just my thoughts though.
The problem with misogynists, at any degree, is they default believe that all other men agree with them and thus are also misogynistic. much in the way that guy friends need to step up and tell their friends when their behavior isn't okay, they need to call that shit out too.
Shout out to my dad who im pretty sure is a 0. My parents flipped the traditional division of labor. He stayed home, did the housework, did ALL the cooking, and took care of us, and my mom worked. He also worked part-time sometimes. They did this because it was the arrangement that made the most sense given their skills, temperament, and interests. Dad is good at cooking, loves taking care of kids, and is calm and patient. Mom is very organized and career motivated but sometimes gets frustrated with small children. Ive never heard either of them suggest that they should have done things differently. They are both amazing parents. My dad taught me to arrange your life however makes the most sense for you and your loved ones, and not based on adhering to some gendered script. He and mom taught me that gender roles are just arbitrary roadblocks that just get in the way of who we are, what we are good at, and what we want.
Most are 3 to 5. I have never met a 0. I've met some who think they're 0, but they ALL have some expectations and notions that are ridiculous.
At least the ones who think they're 0s care enough to listen and work on changing but its still up to us to do the work of dealing with their foolishness.
My partner is a level 0, so are his dad, brother and brother-in-law. My own male family members (dad & brothers) I would say hover somewhere between level 1 and 2. My ex was level 2.
In general I think I've encountered all the levels, although 3 and higher are definitely much rarer than 0-2. 5 I've luckily never come across in real life, only online.
I'm Western European and 30yo if it matters.
> almost exclusively arguing with 4s and 5s on this hellsite.
[I feel you.](https://xkcd.com/386/) Over the years I've had to be very deliberate about choosing when/how to engage, for my own sanity.
For men I know well, the average is probably something like 1.3
I'm a (school-) smart, outspoken (and loud) woman with a lot of Opinions. I think dyed-in-the-wool misogynists are allergic to that so I've been spared the worst of their bullshit 😂
I have haven't had a big level of sexism that matches the definitions above in serious long term realtionships, I had one marriage where a partner used the "mindset" of woman being responsible for most of the housework to his advantage and thought he contributed equally. It was a one of big reasons why I was unhappy in the realtionship besides the plain face that he was not kind. Of course that didn't work out. I went out with two male chavinists that kept sexism hidden from other woman, they had bigger problems, one hit his adult sister and later threw his dog, I called the police and I left "my apt." and later he looked for me
I have had four "zeros" in long-term term realtionships my whole life, but I had to live past 50 years old to get that many. Three men considered themself feminsts and their behavior matched. They were hard to find at my age.
Online dating is a whole different story. That gives one an opportunity to meet all the gropers, users, potential rapists, liars, and mentally unbalanced dudes one can handle. I meet three nice guys (the long term feminists/freinds) out of 1000's of sexists possible over the years.
There's a Level 0.5 in there - the guys who see themselves as feminists and for the most of it the act like one until some deep rooted preconceptions that they are not aware of emerge.
I was married to a level 1. A very good level for someone coming from a traditional country. Then I briefly dated another level 1. Now I am dating a level 0 in a Western country and omg, it's so much better.
Now: I live in Europe
I’d say my partner is a mix between 0-2. I don’t gotta nag him to do anything and he doesn’t believe in man’s or woman’s work. However, saw how the men in his family treated women (see level 4-5 and add in servere physical and drug abuse) and he has the urge to be a more traditional man (financial and physical support), despite him not apparently believing in gender roles because he didn’t want to turn into a lazy bum who doesn’t work. He doesn’t hold the negative views of women from patriarchy, but holds the responsibility of men from that traditional mind set.
Unlike others who shot up levels after getting comfortable, he went from a solid 2 to more a 0-1 as our relationship progressed.
I only say partially level 2 because he’s definitely had to unlearn some comments and beliefs, but surprisingly that came from the women in his life in the first place, so I give grace, especially since some of it regarding our upbringing was true in the context we grew up in.
Most of the men I’ve known are 3-5
My ex was a 3. I’d put him in that man that pretends to be a liberal feminist to get laid category. That turned out horribly and he was emotionally and financially abusive. I left when it turned physical.
You forgot about the male feminist who talks the talk and then proceeds to do absolutely none of the household stuff and keeps pressuring you to forgo condoms because he wants to have "emotional intimacy" (and keeps bringing it up when you've said no repeatedly), expects you to do emotional labour for relationships you're not in and never reciprocates, doesn't really understand consent but talks about it extensively because the rules don't apply to him, follows you around as you do housework because he's infodumping about his day and expecting more emotional labour, completely oblivious to his body/health/hygiene and how that impacts other people.
Personally, mostly halfway between level 0 and 1 though I've known some level 2s.
The thing about level is that most right-thinking men aim for it and proclaim it, but despite their genuine best efforts they don't always succeed because they don't have first hand experience and don't understand.
I think the scary thing about this is that misogyny doesn’t exist on a linear scale. I like the different levels you’ve crafted but while they serve as good examples of the types of misogynists women may encounter, I don’t think that putting them on a scale is an accurate way to measure the amount of misogyny women are subjected to. I think it’s more of an intersectional situation with misogynistic views coming from all directions with endless iterations.
So, I am proud to say in my family (the family I speak to - I know of at least 1 level 5 that I was technically related to, although neither of us liked to acknowledge it), I have mostly level 0s and level 1s. There's one Level 2 who...well, I don't really know why he became that way since his father is a level 0, so is his brother. The level 1s...I see some accidental sexism, but if/when called on it, they would/are ashamed and try to fix it. But 3 men who I cannot think of a single sexist act, statement, or behavior, and I've seen them call out other people's statements. Ironically, I don't think any of them necessarily consider themselves feminist.
Outside of my family...I've met a few level 1s, I think, although only one of them I knew well enough to be sure. I know of dozens of level 2s and 3s. I can think of a pretty big number of people I met or who my friends dated who were 4s. 5s - well, I've met them. I do not generally meet them twice (they don't like me for some reason! 😮). I don't think I know any level 0s outside of my family.
Overall, I'd say most men I know are 2s or 3s. I will say the 3s generally don't have bad intent. They're just...sexist and don't realize it.
Was raised by a level 1, dated one level 1 and one 5 masquerading as a 1 who got jettisoned after only 2 weeks the moment the mask came off. Also had an ex-girlfriend who had so normalized relationship with 3s that when I didn't act like one she concluded she had to "be the man" and acted like a 3 herself. I let her get away with it too because I didn't getting, at the time, a woman could be an abuser.
Married a dude near level 0. He's a School teacher who spends the summers and school breaks as a SAHD to our two kids. His major flaws that keep him from a total 0 by your scale is sometimes palling around with 1s and 2s, and needing to be reminded that certain chores *exist*. I think part of it is a function of height though since most chores he forgets exist are very low down, like wiping down baseboards or washing the underside of the toilet. I forget to dust tops of high cabinets and ceiling fans tho so... it kind of evens out now that I think of it.
I run into a fuck of a lot of 2-4 in the workplace though. I'm "the IT guy" and appear to be a woman (actually NB) and those guys nearly always want to "talk to someone more knowledgeable" or "your tone is unacceptable" even though a male colleague can be so fuckin rude, and I get that while not being rude at all! I think 5s probably masquerade as 4s in the office to avoid being fired.
All of my (serious) exes were in the range of 0 to 1. Two of them are married with children now and still acting as 0 and 1 in their marriages respectively.
My husband, other partners, brothers, brother in law, and close male friends are level 0. I’d say my dad and father in law are close to level 0 but maybe have one thing each in level 1.
My exes fall between level 0-3.
My husband is in between 1-2. I control all finances because he didn’t grow up in a financially stable household. My Dad made me start paying for my own bills when I was just 15. I still nag him to help with chores but i’ve gotten to the point that I want certain things done my way so I just do them. He makes small jokes here and there about women but nothing super horrible, i would definitely put him in his place. I’m sure around his work buddies (army guys) it’s a different story. My Dad is a level 1 for sure. Very controlling financially, but very respectful. I would expect that though being a single father raising two teenage daughters all alone. I’m now 22 though but I knowwwww my Dad struggled
Great poll! I would say my husband is 0.5. Most men I encounter are no worse than 2. I've never really met a 4 or 5. I live in western Canada for context.
My boyfriend's between 0 and 1. With his roommate it's 50/50 but with me: we take turns driving us to/from dates equally but never let's me pay.
My brother was between 2 and 3 when he died. His girlfriend kept him in check but I caught him listening to Tate once.
My father is at least a 5. 100% convinced he ought to own his wife and kids. He's never demonstrated an understanding of consent or the agency of any not-him person. That's cranked to 11 when it comes to women. Man has more respect for wild animals than women
All my guy friends are between 0 and 1. A couple used to be 2's but got better with time.
I’m married to a 1. I handle the finances, but when our daughter was born, I had explain to him how exhausting childcare is because he still behaved like a childless man, going out with friends three and four times a week.
He will never not be protective of women. He grew up with a single mom and saw her beaten up by boyfriends and husbands alike, until at age 9, he met his stepfather to-be, and went at him swinging. His stepfather was a good man who never raised a hand against anyone. But I’ve seen my husband almost get involved in couple’s arguments in public when women are involved, just in case it gets physical.
I've only dated one guy. He's:
0.2 - Most of what you said for zero, often leaves planning/initiative to me.
Dad was also 0.2 - didn't select who he hung out with based on their beliefs.
I think being fairly young plays a role since misogyny levels distribution is definitely skewed along with age. Most horribly sexist men I've met are much much older than me and my friends (I'm 30). It doesn't help either if the upbringing is very different, I was born and raised in a big city and from a progressist family and most of the people I willingly see outside of work and school share my beliefs.
Mostly level 2-3 is what I’ve encountered. A lot of either weaponized feminism (feminism = when women pay for their own stuff because they don’t “deserve” special treatment) or guys who seem normal and fine but occasionally some weirdass shit comes out of their mouth that makes you question everything you thought you knew about them. Did date one guy who seemed normal but I suspect may have been a covert level 5 though. He seemed to take excessive glee in fucking me over after pretending to be normal and kind for literally years and then let slip some very disturbing incel adjacent stuff after we became physically involved.
My husband is a level 0. I love him. Most of the men I have dated were a level 2. A lot of my childhood male friends are a level 1 or 2. I did date a level 4 for awhile. The last relationship before my husband was a level 3 dude but was physically abusive like the level 5. That dude was a piece of work. From what I pieced together he cheated on me with 11-13 women in a 5 year period and those are the ones I know about. If my husband died I would NEVER reenter the dating scene. Forget it.
The majority of men I've dated were 3s or 5s. I refused to date 4s because like hell am I letting a religion I don't believe in have any say in how I behave.
My current boyfriend is a 0. 💕
My ex boyfriend is a 3 but with emotional abuse sprinkled in, and I paid all the bills and did the housework while he didn’t pay and refused to do housework because of his “illnesses”. (To illustrate how believable that is, I stopped asking him to do the dishes because he’d do them all *except* for the cutlery simply because he didn’t want to do it, they’re “too small” so it hurts his wrists or smth)
My dad is (I believe) sadly between a 3 and 4 but without any religious influence
Somewhere between 3 and 5. My friends dad was like that to us for a few years. He always had this kind of attitude towards us that we were always supposed to be loyal and submissive. Yet should be peppy and outgoing. It was done very slowly and progressive over a long time. Even when he started buying us clothes which was getting more and more skimpy and revealing. He said it would make us and him feel better to put out. Some things were even underwear and bikinis. He didn’t press on the women belong in the kitchen or no working a job. More of if you can do a job you should impress the men there or you will not get ahead. You could be a waitress just would be better if you were at hooters or something like that. I wish I could say it ended before things went too far but that point was passed a long time before we could realize. What I found odd was guys like him often didn’t have like trophy wives or were overly confident.
I think level 1 wouldn't outright take control of the finances? Seems like a big jump to me. They might just keep their accounts separate.
Most people I know are a mix of 0-1.
I mostly see level 1 as feeling financially responsible for the couple most of the time. Pays when there’s a date and also most of the bills. But in a benevolent manner, not because he wants to have control. Because he still believes in chivalry and wants to provide for his partner. She can still work and have her own bank account.
Ah, okay, I get it. I don't really think it's a bad thing for him to pay for our dates and bills but I guess it's the attitude he has. Like if he's throwing it in my face that I paid so you do all the chores, then yeah that's bad.
One man I dated has said he wants to pay for our dates because 'the least he could do'. I don't find it offensive or misogynistic.
* **Dad was and all my close male friends are level 0**
But in actuality, if there was level -1 then they would be in this category. Not very 50/50 when it comes to finances (as in, not only willing but feel it is their place to take care of me financially and help me with things that are heavy) but never once expected me to take care of them emotionally or do chores or fit into any traditional female role. Very supportive of me venturing out and quietly tells everyone (female, male, young and old) to allow me to do my own thing. My dad cooked and cleaned more than my mom on top of working 11+ hours a day, 6 days a week. My close male friends are also the same. They see girls/their S.O. doing anything for them as a plus and not something owed to them.
* **Little brother comes off like level 2 but can get all the way down to level 5**
He pays for his gf but it's actually bc he wants to sleep with her. He sees girls outside of his sexual and emotional interest as someone who should give *him* money. Believes girls who are not in these two categories (alluring vixens or nurturing caretakers) as a complete waste.
For level 5.. the incel guys. I don't even think that they hate women. It's that they think they're owed a woman and are angry that's not the reality and take it out on women.
Missing from level 4 is a pimp type. This type is a kind of religious but with misogyny. They exist and can be very minorly religious. They consume a lot of porn and are extremely controlling. They may end up being the one who molests your children. I had a partner like this. (I didn't have children with him, but he ended up being a p*dophile who was caught with underage children.) He was level 4, not very religious but had misogynist standards like it was his religion.
Tbh, I would categorize any men who hurt people around them (sexually, physically, emotionally, whatever) as a level 5, no matter the offense.
If they’re dangerous, they’re level 5.
Ok. It's your system so kudos for the bravery in creating it and sharing it here! I just think it's important to say not all "level 5" are incels, religious or even obviously misogynist. Think of those who do a murder-suicide with "no warning." Yet they were a level 3 their whole life, boiling underneath with a "I'll be good as long as x conditions are met". Similarly a lot of CSA goes along hand and hand with men who are very very good at being "good guys". It's wrong to think that just because a guy is a liberal or unreligious or supports women's liberation that he isn't downloading 2 million gigs of CP. My p*do abuser was a man bun hippie yoga teacher (real fact). But he was also a porn addict who slowly showed he had inherent views of women as inferior and explicitly venerated pimps and pornographers.
I have an acquaintance who was definitely a 4/5 that bad. Like the guy got broken up with and his first thought was to go onto a dating app and make the most misogynistic comments out there about people's dating profiles. I wasn't there since I don't really associate with the guy all that much and I really don't want to. But from what I hear from someone who I do think is a close friend it was terrible. Is a self-professed conservative and stubborn as a god damn rock. I cautioned my friend to watch closely cause he's there, he's just standing on that pipe if he's not already there.
Also incredibly racist too, I do not fuck with that shit and can't stand it.
Level 2-3, with some 4s.
I’ve only ever met a couple of 0s.
1s are rare too.
I’m reminded of the part of the book ‘the handmaids tale’ where June mentions that when she was prevented from working or having a bank account that her husband patronizing said it’s ok I’ll look after you and she could see that he really was ok with that.
I think a lot of men are really ok with our oppression. Look at the male: female ratio in pro-choice marches. For most men it’s a woman’s problem.
Until they have to pay child support…
I didn't realize that I was so lucky. My dad (76) and my husband (44) are both between a level zero and 1 on your scale.
I think most men I am around are between a 1 and 2. Mid size city in the South.
each man I've met plays the max level they feel they can get away without consequences
they are very bad at reading me, so they usually play the wrong level
that's why you don't really know what true level you are dealing with until you are pregnant and have another young kid. only once leaving him becomes very difficult he shows his true colors
My dad is level 1. I think my brothers are all zero or 1. My partners have been like 0.5. Bad at executive function in ways that men are allowed to get away with and women are (mostly) conditioned out of, which is an effect of patriarchy more than an act of misogyny. I've always handled my own finances. All the men I am close to recognize women as fellow complex human beings. That's important to me.
Mostly level 2 and 3 for me but my current boss almost swings to a 4. He always seems surprised if I talk about doing home repairs or something else he sees as a man’s job. He will ask why my husband doesn’t do it. My husband is not mechanically inclined and has a low frustration tolerance so if he started a repair I would likely have to finish it or hire someone to finish it. He regularly assigns me more administrative type tasks than my male coworkers although I have one male coworker he also favors for administrative jobs.
I work with a bunch of older dudes who are in the 2-3 range as well. I work with one or two younger guys who are a 1 or 0 on your scale.
I would say Level 3 was my son's father.
I would say my last ex was a level 4, but expected me to work full time while maintaining the kids and household (if we had children, lots of conversation surrounding this). I'm more conservative about my wardrobe so that was never a problem. Your description is more severe than what I would say he was, but he had a lot of traditional views due to being raised Catholic and all years of Catholic school with Catholic colleges.
You forgot one very important aspect here. No man can be considered a level zero misogynist, no matter how well he behaves at home, unless he also STANDS UP TO OTHER MEN and calls them out on their misogyny. In all my life I have not yet met a single man who's willing to do this. Therefore I consider every man I've ever known misogynistic to some degree. Otherwise they wouldn't keep silent.
I've only dated one guy seriously for 9 months, I won't say anything about the others because I didn't know them well enough. Tbh I didn't really know my only bf long enough to judge. I think you need to live with someone for years and even then they can unpleasantly surprise you. Men are far more capable of manipulation and acting skills than society gives them credit for.
Based on his behavior, level 1. He used to occasionally my appearance though.
I've gone on too many dates with Level 5, unfortunately. Maybe hovering at Level 4, but it's rough.
My dad is Level 4 for sure, so are many of my male relatives.
I have a feeling a guy I recently liked was a Level 3 in disguise, pretending to be a Level 1. (He ghosted me not long after we hooked up despite being against hookup culture 🙄)
To be honest I think most men are at about Level 3, and they don't think they're as misogynistic as they actually are.
It's hard to group men together like that. My husband is definitely a 0 or maybe even less than 0, in that women may be better than men in many regards. I have dated level 3 men. I have worked with level 4 men.
A great deal of men are level 2, my sister is married to one.
I know, it was just a “fun” little poll. But there are definitely many nuances and variations.
Yes, I think the common man tends to be on level 2. Generally kind to his wife and women around him, but sometimes succumbs to his need to be validated by other men.
My dad’s a 1 that willfully turned himself into a 0 (once us kids were grown and moved out but whatever). My husband is a 1 that became a zero in our daughter’s first year of life. My 2 brothers are born 0’s. We all scrubbed the bathrooms, washed dishes, and pulled weeds side by side in childhood. They’re both single bachelors who take care of themselves beautifully and have good platonic friendships with women and I’m sure will have equal partnerships if they get married.
Most of my coworkers are 1’s and about 25% are 2’s. We have a handful senior guys that are 3’s but they’ll be gone soon one way or another. Some of the younger ones are 0’s and the number is increasing.
Misogyny gets thrown around to loosely, Men are mostly ignorant which lends them be more sexist than misogynistic with the “assumed roles” and “protector mindset” they don’t hate woman. Ironically woman can be more misandristic due to the misconception of misogyny.
I feel like a well adjusted 1 is basically not a problem, if that works for you. Most men I know are more like 0.5- they have unexamined disparaging beliefs about certain kinds of women and they don’t see how they passively benefit from patriarchy
Some do not fit into these levels. I’m thinking of the men who do a little more than their fair share of housework, mental labor, and financial contributions, but still make misogynistic jokes, ask you to change your clothes into something more modest before leaving the house, and refuse to continue the relationship if you ever make more money than they do. I call these types the Control Freaks.
True! There are many variations, but to me, the type of men you describe are at least on level 3.
I'd put Control Freaks between levels 3 and 4 I think
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Same (except I luckily don't have a stalker)
Dad's level 2. Brother's 0. Misogyny surprises him because he hates everyone equally. Guys I've dated have been 0 or 1
Do we have the same brother? "Hates everyone equally" is a perfect description lol
Maybe lol. He thinks most people are stupid, men or women
Yo guys, I think I married your brother....
Most I encounter are Level 0-3. I was married once to a Level 5, but, he was polite enough to die as I was in the process of throwing him out so I get his Social Security starting next year and it'll be a nice chunk :)
What a fine gentleman willing to die! If only such manners were more commonplace.
Hahahahahaha! It was mighty nice of him ;)
Good for you! He could do one thing right at least.
He HATED mobile homes and travel trailers so of course I'm using his money next year to buy a new mobile home and travel trailer lmfao!
Love this!
How I wish all abuse stories ended. Goodbye, Earl. 👋🏼
My fiancè is a level 0, my two exes were level 2's. My Dad himself is a level 1. My mom and sister are level 4's, which has messed with my mind in a number of ways. Most men I encounter at work are level 3's, especially ones that identify is libertarians. Most men throughout my time in college and the workforce have been level 3's, the bitterness is thick with them. EDIT: Edited for cohesion.
Your mother and sister being the worst is something. Being surrounded by misogynistic men is awful, but it’s almost worse when they’re validated by women. I’m happy that your dad and your fiancé are better. Enjoy your healthy relationship ❤️
Thanks. The issues with my mom and sister are a rabbit hole of abuse and manipulation that lasted from birth until my late 20s. I can't even begin to dive into it in this context. I've been to therapy about it and holy hell there was a lot of it. It was really confusing because my mom would oscillate between being anti-religious and a rebel who hated other women because she assumed they were jealous, to a super-religious holier than thou type who hated other women because she assumed they were sinful. It was... so confusing and unpredictable. ☹️
Fun question! I have two answers: - At work: Level 5's everywhere. I work with sex offenders so it might even rank a level 6 and I might be cheating by including them lol. Coworkers are great for the most part, though. - In my life now (early 30's): Mostly level 0's, some level 1's, and one or two guys that are probably level 2's. Everyone above that level gets phased out.
Wow. What kind of job do you do?
Forensic therapist. I specialize in working with (mostly) repeat and/or violent sexual offenders in a secure facility.
Most of the men I've been involved with become 4s and 5s as soon as they are comfortable/think they won't get caught/called out.
This is the real answer. [This post](https://www.reddit.com/r/TwoXChromosomes/s/A5CxI2Qai6) from a few weeks ago talked about how often men can just "turn off" their feelings one day and start treating their partners and spouses like garbage. Most of us are just a flip of the switch away from being someone who fills their heart to someone who fills a function.
We always were filling a function. It's heartbreaking how many men think that way about women
Husband - level 0, total rejection of gender roles here. He cooks, I take the trash out, I do laundry, he does most of the cleaning, our income is within a hair of each other, 48-52%. Ex-boyfriends - depending on who we're talking about, mostly level 1. Good relationships with women in family but leaned towards a protector mindset. One may have leaned towards level 2, but we didn't date for long enough for me to know for sure how it would have worked out. Family - dad, level 1, grandfather - level 1, uncle, level 2, cousin, level 1. Male friends - mostly level 1 -2, depending on the individual. Generally well-intentioned and fully reject sexism and misogyny in theory, but occasionally succumb to their more selfish impulses. I know level 4 and 5 men exist, but I don't believe I've ever met them IRL so it's a bit odd for me to realize they exist. I know a few ex-boyfriends of friends who were at level 3.
I've met/spoken to all. Some online, some in person.
“As if misogyny was something women made up to bother men” THATS EXACTLY HOW THEY TALK ABOUT IT OML But in general I’d say 7/10.
"Look, I don't see how we're going to get past these things if you keep harping on it." ... classic DARVO nonsense. The *real* problem isn't their misbehavior, it's people calling them on it.
I know it’s such an indirect *bitch shut up* 😂
I’d agree. It’s between 5-7 for me on a scale of 1-10
Damn😭 I didn’t think other ppl would say 7 that’s sad
I'm not a woman, but asked my sister who's with me right now. She says; her current fiancé a 0, our dad and me a 0, her latest ex a 2, her first boyfriend a 3. My boyfriend she gives a 0 as well.
It looks like your sister is surrounded by men who truly have her best interests at heart :) I’m very happy for her (for you also, since your boyfriend seems to be a gem).
I feel like my husband is 1.5 level…and it took lots of discussions to get there.
I mean… at least he’s willing to listen and try… But I know how tiring it is to try to make them understand 🤷♀️
Here's my question... how did you know he would be worth it for the months/ years of training?
Honestly I don’t know how to really answer that. I just know misogyny runs deep in American society. Over the years when things come up I have told him how certain topics affect women. In an ideal situation I would have been better about screening him in the beginning but obviously I did not notice all the signs. I think if he had not changed some of the negative misogynistic beliefs/behaviors I would not have stayed with him. My hope is that he will continue to reflect and learn, I guess that’s all I can hope for. Plus having three daughters he probably will be learning more as time goes on I’m sure 😅
I very rarely meet below a Level 2
I don’t think I’ve ever met a 0
My conversation with a guy once went like this: “Girls don’t have any hobbies. All they know is dumb stuff like which celebrities are dating” Me: “I don’t think that’s true. Most of my female friends have lots of hobbies. Like reading, knitting, painting, practicing yoga…” Him: “ANYONE can do those things” (I don’t think he’s clear on what makes something a hobby. I don’t know why men are gatekeeping hobbies now but that’s a thing in case you’ve been lucky enough to not encounter it yet). I’m not sure where exactly the conversation went then [full disclosure, we were drunk] but at one point he started listing his hobbies and I kid you not, the main one was WATCHING ANIME. This infuriated me to no end because - I’m sorry - can’t ANYONE watch anime? Like that doesn’t even require skill (and no, he doesn’t speak Japanese, we’re talking dubbed or captioned). I really think his main frustration was not meeting girls who like the same video games and anime shows he likes. In their sad little boy brains that means we’re all dumb and “don’t have hobbies.”
I FUCKING HATE that this has become such a huge thing.. All men care about is anime, sports and cars and they want women who like those same things??? Like go date a man. It's infuriating.... I'm sick and tired of men saying "reality TV is trash." Like really? All you idiots watch is "good guy bad guy big fight" type shit
Haha I know. But trust me there are guys not like all that. This is why I end up with older dudes which has a different set of challenges. I *cannot* with the video games and the anime shows and the Joe Rogan-esque podcasts. Here’s hoping they grow out of it for yall. 🍹
Most men that I meet are level 1 or 2. My ex was level 5 but was apt at pretending to be a level 0 for as long as it took for his exes, including me, to become circumstantially trapped with him. I have met some so-called 0s that were actually 3s. Also 1s that were actually 4s. Never met a true 0. If I ever do, and we are mutually attracted, I would consider dating him. Right now, I am very relieved to be single.
Well, if you’re both not attracted to each other, please, send him my way 😅
Okay, you have first dibs.
This can't be stated enough: until we become circumstantially trapped with them. My God. So common, yet we keep trying to get back to the good old days. Year after year, failing. Because they're gone, baby, gone for good.
I think I've encountered all levels, to some im related unfortunately, I like to think that my bf is level 0.
My husband is naturally a 0 but he does work full time (considerable more most of the time) and I work like 6 hours a week tops outside the home for extra spending money and to get some social interaction. Thus, I do the vast majority of the housework and all the cooking. Even after 7 years together he still asks to make sure I really don't want him to pick up any of the chores, and he respects my no when I tell him "Nah dude, you've worked nearly 70 hours this week, go play video games while you've got the time. I already got to relax earlier when I took a break and when I'm done in an hour I can play my own." I'm mostly saying this because I don't want women who are happy with this sort of arrangement and in fact prefer it to feel gross about it. You shouldn't. If you like staying at home doing domestic things, that's fine. If you don't, having a job/career and expecting your partner to pick up 50% of the domestic labor is also fine. Do what works for you and your partner. Now, the rest of the dudes out there? Mostly level 2, 3, and 4 (I lived in the south and was forced to attend a southern Baptist church and school for a while as a kid). Would dump any single one of them the instant I caught a whiff and y'all should too.
I think my husband is about a 0.5. He's very feminist, very outspoken when he hears friends say misogynistic or sexist things, and is open to having all sorts of discussions. We are childfree, and we share duties regarding finances, but chores are very much a sticking point. I have to remind him to do things and ask for help, and I get very frustrated that it's "help" and not him doing his part. Nevertheless, we're working on it, and there's been improvement.
My girlfriend and I are in a very similar situation. I struggle to see and do chores fast enough, and it’s been a pain point for us. We have talked about how chores occupy different parts of our brain, and it was a very interesting and weird conversation. When my gf sees something that needs to get taken care of (laundry, dishes, etc), she feels a physical *pull* and *urge* to correct it, and I don’t get that at all. Not sure how much of it is tied to her OCD vs internalized sexism, though.
Interesting viewpoint. My husband and I had a similar conversation but slightly different POV. The way I explained it to him, is that there are certain chores he does consistently (like the cat litter tray and hoovering) because them not being done bothers him, but the rest he fully admits he will just put off until he feels like doing them, which can be a long time. But if that's like 90% of it, it feels like he's leaving the rest to me to do. It's not, but the gap between when I'd do it and when he'd do it can be weeks, and I'm not even particularly quick to do stuff. It really helped us to see how the other perceives it and adjust it.
I hope y'all have found/are finding a workable method. There's a whole cocktail of stuff that likely contributes to the urge to *correct immediately and not one minute later*, and I don't have OCD, but I do very much have a lot of internalized sexism/gender expectations/all of the above that contribute to me doing it straightaway. My husband (and more so when we were dating and living together) would tell me, "Just tell me what to do!" And I'd get so frustrated because I still found myself the de facto house manager and not an equal partner. He'd say to give him chores, to write out expectations, etc. And I once fell for that trap, and you know what? He didn't follow through. That was a huge frustration and pain point, and we've made some strides, but man. It's tough.
Yeah, we tried that same thing and it also didn’t work for us. What I’ve been doing recently (and it’s going much better) is framing things as “if I spend five minutes now, it’ll make her much more comfortable”. I genuinely am not bothered by things in the same way she is, so I dedicate the first half-hour or so after work to putting myself in her mindset to try and alleviate some of the load.
>I dedicate the first half-hour or so after work to putting myself in her mindset to try and alleviate some of the load. Nice! That's a good strategy that respects her needs.
I'm part Asian part middle eastern. LoL. I grew up with male cousins my age who got all the attention from family because they were the ones who would "carry the lineage". They got better gifts, expensive cars, got signed up for classes, were the favorites... This was mostly attention from grandparents and older uncles. One of my uncles in particular is exceptionally racist and misogynistic (on the Asian side). Surprisingly, the middle eastern side isn't racist at all and much less misogynistic, maybe a level 2. Like it's just ingrained in them so they don't even realize it. (For example being shocked that I'm good with computers and robots and technology! But, they find it cool so it's all good. I get that for someone born in the 1930s and 40s in the middle east seeing women in tech is shocking) That racist sexist uncle? Yeah... We were on vacation living with his family as he lived in the country side. Me and my cousins snuck out to go play. I was 13, my cousins (both boys) were 14 and 12. When we got back he punished me because I snuck out of the house with boys and he wouldn't believe me when I said we just went to ride our bikes. To him, it was unacceptable that me and my cousins were so close. It was wrong. Granted, we did some sexual stuff together😂 (like the first dick I ever saw was my cousin's but it was innocent kids "show me yours I'll show you mine" we never did anything more and never would have). We were kids. We went to steal oranges from a neighbor and made a music video of us B-boying and parkouring! 😂 My cousins were so angry at him they threatened to never go on vacation with him. My parents couldn't say anything to him though, because he was an "elder". I just remember my mom very calmly telling him his behaviour was unacceptable and that we were kids. He is an all around nasty man. The number of times me and my siblings who are among the youngest in the family have had to leave the room when he's talking because we just can't sit and listen to his racist rants is astonishing. He actually uses racial slurs and talks about a black acquaintance of his he used to work with in the 80s in the most disgusting manner possible. The rage I felt the first time I heard him drop the N word I almost cried. His poor wife spent all her life cooking for him. He makes her dress in modest traditional clothing whenever someone visited. I don't think I ever saw her in casual clothing. So... I've seen the worst. Growing up in the east I've seen this plenty of times, btw. This uncle is just a very close example. It's surprising how the rest of the family is different from him. I think he's just a bitter old man who was super smart but never got to achieve anything major. Btw, the man is highly educated! Has two masters degrees one in chemical engineering and one in politics. He has a study filled with books in 4 languages. He's well read. He reads and writes poetry. You would think someone with that much knowledge would be less of a misogynistic racist closeminded conservative ass...but nope.
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I’m so sorry. I wish you the best and hope you’ll be able to heal from this experience. It is… horrific, to say the least.
That's awful and sounds like a truly gut-wrenching experience. ☹️
I updated the post so you can see more of it. Yeah, it's pretty terrible. Thank you for your kindness.
Oh nice poll And very nice rating scale, yours or some reference's I'm curious if there's more on this topic? I did more than a life sentence with a level 5 so my view won't be representative Level 0 I see rising through my lifetime but still a rare minority. Maybe 5-10% more so in more recent generations we should have some hope. Level 1 for the men that for the most part haven't had a big ego or shame knock. Male culture is brutal at times and especially on that. So here sit the solid well adjusted men a generous 10-15% maybe. Level 2 a solid 25-30% more in good families or friendship dynamics if you can find your people. I don't blame anyone for not standing up to a level 4/5 thats a society problem imo Level 3 25-30% rising significantly in certain professions, more adversarial hobbies. I feel like there's an age factor here also. Level 4 a nasty 15% in general but I think for the people who experience this it's actually their whole world. Level 5 a very dangerous 5-10% and also rising Will be fascinated to see how others view this.
Nope, it’s mine :) I agree with your distribution but I think it also depends on where you live. Some parts of the world are chock full of 3s, 4s and 5s.
Nice categorization ;) Oh I wonder whether geography would correlate to something like happiness index. Definitely agree there are many factors that would influence distribution across different groups. Thanks for posting fascinating thinking
Curious if you have thoughts or theories on why level 5 is rising?
https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2023/10/new-paper-explores-the-rise-of-incels/ This says it better than I could, but not much research done to date. Edit tldr it's breading online
My (male) best friend falls between 0 and 1 and the majority of men I interact with are between 1 and 2 with a couple trying to educate themselves toward 0. I’ve (thankfully) only met one level 3/5 man. He was supposedly a diehard feminist and had built an entire reputation around being very progressive. We hung out a few times before he shamed me for my sexual preferences and how I am during sex (moaning and that sorta thing), asked me if I had been m*lested as a child in the same conversation, then became violent toward me later that evening during sex before calling the cops on me and blasting me online as violent and psychotic despite my actions being exclusively in self defense. An actual predator with an entire community backing him because “he’s not like that with them”. Insult to injury, he was also homophobic towards wlw/lesbians specifically. Absolutely insane.
My ex was Level 3 and getting worse. He wasn't a cheater. He was surprised when I left and acted like I didn't communicate or spend years trying to fix it and beg him to get therapy before giving up in the last year. He was *checks notes* "looking for a couples therapist" the night before I left him. It was too little too late. The article "she divorced me because I left dishes by the sink" (without the realization or self reflection) and the comic "you should have asked" really resonated with my ex's version of sexism.
I feel like a lot of the men you talk to, you kind of expect them to be level 1s or 0s just from how they express themselves. the more you get to know them and peel back the layers they actually are a 2 or 3. Source: went to art high school and college and spent years surrounded by “liberal” open minded guys. Also tons of comments saying their SO is a 0. This is Reddit and people are sometimes more “feminist” leaning but I don’t really buy it. Almost every man I know has shown some misogyny, whether it’s even on a small accidental scale. That’s not to say I don’t know a lot of really great guys who I’m happy to have in my life
Agreed. 2s and 3s don’t even seem to realize that they are, indeed, sexists and can be a plague to date.
> I feel like a lot of the men you talk to, you kind of expect them to be level 1s or 0s just from how they express themselves. the more you get to know them and peel back the layers they actually are a 2 or 3. I think it's especially prevalent in younger generations where many boys were raised (explicitly and implicitly) to at least give lip-service to feminist (and other progressive) issues, so many of them will talk the talk without ever bothering to walk the walk. :/
Never met a 0, 1 or 2. Most exes started out as 3 and escalated to a plain, not religious version of 4. Basically the 'Why does he do that' levels of control, misogyny, possessiveness, unwarranted jealousy and abuse. Expected me to do 200% of housework, chores, mental load, emotional labor while they acted single. They were all regular, middle class, white or blue collar guys. Completely average.
I have never met a man who isn’t a little misogynistic. Not even one. I’ve had this conversation with female friends and they all share the same experience. ALL men, they don’t have our perspective to understand that. But the difference is some of them, very very few, actually care and are empathic, and want to learn. These are the ones who listen and let you share your experience of life, and they actually shape their behavior and do better. This is RARE. The majority of men I have bet fall in between 2-4 depending on their experience with women relationship-wise, and their religious/political beliefs
I think a level is missing. I'd move every category up 1 number and add a new level 0. I feel like level 0 men do everything in the current level 1 but also actively work against the patriarchy by calling out other men on their sexist bullshit, educating themselves on gender politics and systems that hurt women, and openly and willingly listening to women talk about their experiences/struggles with misogyny. I also think level 0 men emotionally self regulate themselves to not place emotional load on the women in their lives - especially when hearing about female oppression since it might initially trigger defensiveness or the desire to preemptively defend their own pro-woman stance. Instead, they're conscious of making others feel listened to and not sidetracking the convo with their feelings. My current partner does all that and more. I've known him for 4+ years and we were friends first so I know it's not for show. It's actually what made me take interest. He's actively proud of me on the daily for being assertive and outspoken even when I take him to task, loves how intelligent and powerful I am, and did not give a second thought to me eventually being the primary breadwinner once I'm done with med school. He doesn’t believe it emasculates him at all but instead tells me how proud he is to be my partner. He never has joked at my expense either in private or with others. He eagerly embraces household management and childrearing duties. He actively takes things off my plate without needing to be asked, takes great efforts to communicate even during disagreements very respectfully, and is the only man I’ve ever felt 100% emotionally and physically safe around without question. And it's great especially since he's very outspoken and assertive and most dudes would think he's kind of a "guy's guy" initially. He's a natural leader and has a take charge attitude. He comes off as really confident and sure of himself to strangers. This all comes in handy when he challenges then men in his life for their sexist bullshit. What's interesting is that he will admit in his teenage years and early life that he struggled with gender roles. He used to struggle with a lot of misogynistic thinking. He had an abusive mother to whom he attributes those initial negative feelings about women but says that the fact he felt pressure to "man up" about the abuse just reinforced negative thinking even further. He said he ended up angry at the world and eventually depressed to the point of being suicidal. So he decided to go through therapy. He did a ton of work on himself and discovered that misogyny was what made him feel so miserable. Misogyny is what told him he couldn't cry or reach out to friends or ask for help about his feelings regarding his abuse. Misogyny told him he wasn’t worth taking care of. Misogyny told him he needed to prove his worth via displays of strength and economic success. He was able to unpack all those feelings and still regularly attends therapy 10 years later just for maintenance. This is both so cool to me and also so depressing. It's cool to me because it's proof that men can fix their own negative ideas and grow their own emotional intelligence without outsourcing their emotional labor to their partners. It's depressing because so many men would not even consider doing so. I adore this man. If we ever break up, I’d just be single. I love helping him, doting on him, and taking care of him when he needs some loving, because it’s never an obligation and it’s always reciprocated when I need the same without hesitation. I am so proud of him and respect him so much. He doesn’t want for anything. I love to make his life easier and better because of the love he’s shown me. (And for the record, I’m throwing this last part in not to brag but because I’m hoping some of the men lurking will read this and it will spark something in them to do the work so they can have the kind of relationship they truly desire.)
Yes, I agree. Another Redditor mentioned this too, that zero in this list still isn’t ideal because believing women and men are equal is simply not true. Zero in this scale still includes sexism/misogyny for sure. I agree that most men have not done the work in therapy (that you described) to unlearn all this. And most don’t actively push back. All you have to do is goto a women’s march / protest - see how few men there are compared to women. So many men just don’t care about this stuff.
Maybe unpopular opinion, but the goal should not be someone who believes in gender equality. The ideal is someone who knows that women are still treated in many ways unequally in our society, but they aim to help balance it. With that being said, my exes have been a 2 and 3.
It's the old problem where people conflate equality with equity. :/
I agree. I would say that was be below zero (in this description), feminist ally. The description of level zero is definitely still a level of misogyny, believing things are equal when they are **very** much not.
I interpreted the gender equality piece of OP's description as "believes gender equality is the ideal", not "gender equality has been achieved".
I could be reading it wrong, but my understanding was that this is more applied misogyny in a relationship. I think relationships can and should have equality. Societally is very different. Kind of like how a dude can not be toxically masculine but also not understand what toxic masculinity is. Or that toxic masculinity isn't just harmful to women, but society in general and men themselves. Just my thoughts though.
The problem with misogynists, at any degree, is they default believe that all other men agree with them and thus are also misogynistic. much in the way that guy friends need to step up and tell their friends when their behavior isn't okay, they need to call that shit out too.
Shout out to my dad who im pretty sure is a 0. My parents flipped the traditional division of labor. He stayed home, did the housework, did ALL the cooking, and took care of us, and my mom worked. He also worked part-time sometimes. They did this because it was the arrangement that made the most sense given their skills, temperament, and interests. Dad is good at cooking, loves taking care of kids, and is calm and patient. Mom is very organized and career motivated but sometimes gets frustrated with small children. Ive never heard either of them suggest that they should have done things differently. They are both amazing parents. My dad taught me to arrange your life however makes the most sense for you and your loved ones, and not based on adhering to some gendered script. He and mom taught me that gender roles are just arbitrary roadblocks that just get in the way of who we are, what we are good at, and what we want.
I love that your parents played to their individual strengths instead of forcing themselves into gender role boxes.
Most are 3 to 5. I have never met a 0. I've met some who think they're 0, but they ALL have some expectations and notions that are ridiculous. At least the ones who think they're 0s care enough to listen and work on changing but its still up to us to do the work of dealing with their foolishness.
My partner is a level 0, so are his dad, brother and brother-in-law. My own male family members (dad & brothers) I would say hover somewhere between level 1 and 2. My ex was level 2. In general I think I've encountered all the levels, although 3 and higher are definitely much rarer than 0-2. 5 I've luckily never come across in real life, only online. I'm Western European and 30yo if it matters.
My husband is definitely a level 0. And tbh I don’t view any of the others acceptable at all!
My dad and my husband are 0s, but I make up for it by almost exclusively arguing with 4s and 5s on this hellsite.
> almost exclusively arguing with 4s and 5s on this hellsite. [I feel you.](https://xkcd.com/386/) Over the years I've had to be very deliberate about choosing when/how to engage, for my own sanity.
I've mostly encountered Level 1 or 2 misogyny in my life, I think.
For men I know well, the average is probably something like 1.3 I'm a (school-) smart, outspoken (and loud) woman with a lot of Opinions. I think dyed-in-the-wool misogynists are allergic to that so I've been spared the worst of their bullshit 😂
I have haven't had a big level of sexism that matches the definitions above in serious long term realtionships, I had one marriage where a partner used the "mindset" of woman being responsible for most of the housework to his advantage and thought he contributed equally. It was a one of big reasons why I was unhappy in the realtionship besides the plain face that he was not kind. Of course that didn't work out. I went out with two male chavinists that kept sexism hidden from other woman, they had bigger problems, one hit his adult sister and later threw his dog, I called the police and I left "my apt." and later he looked for me I have had four "zeros" in long-term term realtionships my whole life, but I had to live past 50 years old to get that many. Three men considered themself feminsts and their behavior matched. They were hard to find at my age. Online dating is a whole different story. That gives one an opportunity to meet all the gropers, users, potential rapists, liars, and mentally unbalanced dudes one can handle. I meet three nice guys (the long term feminists/freinds) out of 1000's of sexists possible over the years.
There's a Level 0.5 in there - the guys who see themselves as feminists and for the most of it the act like one until some deep rooted preconceptions that they are not aware of emerge.
Level 4, considering most of the men in my life are religious zealots 😭
level 3
I was married to a level 1. A very good level for someone coming from a traditional country. Then I briefly dated another level 1. Now I am dating a level 0 in a Western country and omg, it's so much better. Now: I live in Europe
I’d say my partner is a mix between 0-2. I don’t gotta nag him to do anything and he doesn’t believe in man’s or woman’s work. However, saw how the men in his family treated women (see level 4-5 and add in servere physical and drug abuse) and he has the urge to be a more traditional man (financial and physical support), despite him not apparently believing in gender roles because he didn’t want to turn into a lazy bum who doesn’t work. He doesn’t hold the negative views of women from patriarchy, but holds the responsibility of men from that traditional mind set. Unlike others who shot up levels after getting comfortable, he went from a solid 2 to more a 0-1 as our relationship progressed. I only say partially level 2 because he’s definitely had to unlearn some comments and beliefs, but surprisingly that came from the women in his life in the first place, so I give grace, especially since some of it regarding our upbringing was true in the context we grew up in. Most of the men I’ve known are 3-5 My ex was a 3. I’d put him in that man that pretends to be a liberal feminist to get laid category. That turned out horribly and he was emotionally and financially abusive. I left when it turned physical.
You forgot about the male feminist who talks the talk and then proceeds to do absolutely none of the household stuff and keeps pressuring you to forgo condoms because he wants to have "emotional intimacy" (and keeps bringing it up when you've said no repeatedly), expects you to do emotional labour for relationships you're not in and never reciprocates, doesn't really understand consent but talks about it extensively because the rules don't apply to him, follows you around as you do housework because he's infodumping about his day and expecting more emotional labour, completely oblivious to his body/health/hygiene and how that impacts other people.
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It’s awful. I hope things get better for them soon.
Dated level 1-2, married level 0. 16 years last month.
Personally, mostly halfway between level 0 and 1 though I've known some level 2s. The thing about level is that most right-thinking men aim for it and proclaim it, but despite their genuine best efforts they don't always succeed because they don't have first hand experience and don't understand.
All of the men. I've known have exhibited all levels on e the mask drops.
I think the scary thing about this is that misogyny doesn’t exist on a linear scale. I like the different levels you’ve crafted but while they serve as good examples of the types of misogynists women may encounter, I don’t think that putting them on a scale is an accurate way to measure the amount of misogyny women are subjected to. I think it’s more of an intersectional situation with misogynistic views coming from all directions with endless iterations.
So, I am proud to say in my family (the family I speak to - I know of at least 1 level 5 that I was technically related to, although neither of us liked to acknowledge it), I have mostly level 0s and level 1s. There's one Level 2 who...well, I don't really know why he became that way since his father is a level 0, so is his brother. The level 1s...I see some accidental sexism, but if/when called on it, they would/are ashamed and try to fix it. But 3 men who I cannot think of a single sexist act, statement, or behavior, and I've seen them call out other people's statements. Ironically, I don't think any of them necessarily consider themselves feminist. Outside of my family...I've met a few level 1s, I think, although only one of them I knew well enough to be sure. I know of dozens of level 2s and 3s. I can think of a pretty big number of people I met or who my friends dated who were 4s. 5s - well, I've met them. I do not generally meet them twice (they don't like me for some reason! 😮). I don't think I know any level 0s outside of my family. Overall, I'd say most men I know are 2s or 3s. I will say the 3s generally don't have bad intent. They're just...sexist and don't realize it.
Was raised by a level 1, dated one level 1 and one 5 masquerading as a 1 who got jettisoned after only 2 weeks the moment the mask came off. Also had an ex-girlfriend who had so normalized relationship with 3s that when I didn't act like one she concluded she had to "be the man" and acted like a 3 herself. I let her get away with it too because I didn't getting, at the time, a woman could be an abuser. Married a dude near level 0. He's a School teacher who spends the summers and school breaks as a SAHD to our two kids. His major flaws that keep him from a total 0 by your scale is sometimes palling around with 1s and 2s, and needing to be reminded that certain chores *exist*. I think part of it is a function of height though since most chores he forgets exist are very low down, like wiping down baseboards or washing the underside of the toilet. I forget to dust tops of high cabinets and ceiling fans tho so... it kind of evens out now that I think of it. I run into a fuck of a lot of 2-4 in the workplace though. I'm "the IT guy" and appear to be a woman (actually NB) and those guys nearly always want to "talk to someone more knowledgeable" or "your tone is unacceptable" even though a male colleague can be so fuckin rude, and I get that while not being rude at all! I think 5s probably masquerade as 4s in the office to avoid being fired.
All of my (serious) exes were in the range of 0 to 1. Two of them are married with children now and still acting as 0 and 1 in their marriages respectively.
My husband, other partners, brothers, brother in law, and close male friends are level 0. I’d say my dad and father in law are close to level 0 but maybe have one thing each in level 1. My exes fall between level 0-3.
All if anything this year met quite a number of level 4/5s
my dad is level 1 and 4 combined, is that possible
My husband is in between 1-2. I control all finances because he didn’t grow up in a financially stable household. My Dad made me start paying for my own bills when I was just 15. I still nag him to help with chores but i’ve gotten to the point that I want certain things done my way so I just do them. He makes small jokes here and there about women but nothing super horrible, i would definitely put him in his place. I’m sure around his work buddies (army guys) it’s a different story. My Dad is a level 1 for sure. Very controlling financially, but very respectful. I would expect that though being a single father raising two teenage daughters all alone. I’m now 22 though but I knowwwww my Dad struggled
Great poll! I would say my husband is 0.5. Most men I encounter are no worse than 2. I've never really met a 4 or 5. I live in western Canada for context.
2 and 4 I’m fairly religious. And I’m supposed to marry one of these schmucks 🙃
Don't think I've ever met anyone below a 1
My husband is 0 My brother is somewhere between 1-3 My mother is a solid 4 My father is over 10
My dad is a level five but most men I've met or dated have been between 0-2.
Hey my ex husband was level 2, ex boyfriend was level 3 (and was honestly harder to figure out that he was actually misogynistic!).
I've been married to L0 for 25 years. Married him literally 4 week after meeting for the first time. No regrets.
My boyfriend's between 0 and 1. With his roommate it's 50/50 but with me: we take turns driving us to/from dates equally but never let's me pay. My brother was between 2 and 3 when he died. His girlfriend kept him in check but I caught him listening to Tate once. My father is at least a 5. 100% convinced he ought to own his wife and kids. He's never demonstrated an understanding of consent or the agency of any not-him person. That's cranked to 11 when it comes to women. Man has more respect for wild animals than women All my guy friends are between 0 and 1. A couple used to be 2's but got better with time.
I’m married to a 1. I handle the finances, but when our daughter was born, I had explain to him how exhausting childcare is because he still behaved like a childless man, going out with friends three and four times a week. He will never not be protective of women. He grew up with a single mom and saw her beaten up by boyfriends and husbands alike, until at age 9, he met his stepfather to-be, and went at him swinging. His stepfather was a good man who never raised a hand against anyone. But I’ve seen my husband almost get involved in couple’s arguments in public when women are involved, just in case it gets physical.
I've only dated one guy. He's: 0.2 - Most of what you said for zero, often leaves planning/initiative to me. Dad was also 0.2 - didn't select who he hung out with based on their beliefs.
I think being fairly young plays a role since misogyny levels distribution is definitely skewed along with age. Most horribly sexist men I've met are much much older than me and my friends (I'm 30). It doesn't help either if the upbringing is very different, I was born and raised in a big city and from a progressist family and most of the people I willingly see outside of work and school share my beliefs.
Mostly level 2-3 is what I’ve encountered. A lot of either weaponized feminism (feminism = when women pay for their own stuff because they don’t “deserve” special treatment) or guys who seem normal and fine but occasionally some weirdass shit comes out of their mouth that makes you question everything you thought you knew about them. Did date one guy who seemed normal but I suspect may have been a covert level 5 though. He seemed to take excessive glee in fucking me over after pretending to be normal and kind for literally years and then let slip some very disturbing incel adjacent stuff after we became physically involved.
My husband is a level 0. I love him. Most of the men I have dated were a level 2. A lot of my childhood male friends are a level 1 or 2. I did date a level 4 for awhile. The last relationship before my husband was a level 3 dude but was physically abusive like the level 5. That dude was a piece of work. From what I pieced together he cheated on me with 11-13 women in a 5 year period and those are the ones I know about. If my husband died I would NEVER reenter the dating scene. Forget it.
At least some. I don’t think I’ve ever met a man who isn’t misogynistic at all, because they directly benefit from it
The majority of men I've dated were 3s or 5s. I refused to date 4s because like hell am I letting a religion I don't believe in have any say in how I behave.
My current boyfriend is a 0. 💕 My ex boyfriend is a 3 but with emotional abuse sprinkled in, and I paid all the bills and did the housework while he didn’t pay and refused to do housework because of his “illnesses”. (To illustrate how believable that is, I stopped asking him to do the dishes because he’d do them all *except* for the cutlery simply because he didn’t want to do it, they’re “too small” so it hurts his wrists or smth) My dad is (I believe) sadly between a 3 and 4 but without any religious influence
Somewhere between 3 and 5. My friends dad was like that to us for a few years. He always had this kind of attitude towards us that we were always supposed to be loyal and submissive. Yet should be peppy and outgoing. It was done very slowly and progressive over a long time. Even when he started buying us clothes which was getting more and more skimpy and revealing. He said it would make us and him feel better to put out. Some things were even underwear and bikinis. He didn’t press on the women belong in the kitchen or no working a job. More of if you can do a job you should impress the men there or you will not get ahead. You could be a waitress just would be better if you were at hooters or something like that. I wish I could say it ended before things went too far but that point was passed a long time before we could realize. What I found odd was guys like him often didn’t have like trophy wives or were overly confident.
I think level 1 wouldn't outright take control of the finances? Seems like a big jump to me. They might just keep their accounts separate. Most people I know are a mix of 0-1.
I mostly see level 1 as feeling financially responsible for the couple most of the time. Pays when there’s a date and also most of the bills. But in a benevolent manner, not because he wants to have control. Because he still believes in chivalry and wants to provide for his partner. She can still work and have her own bank account.
Ah, okay, I get it. I don't really think it's a bad thing for him to pay for our dates and bills but I guess it's the attitude he has. Like if he's throwing it in my face that I paid so you do all the chores, then yeah that's bad. One man I dated has said he wants to pay for our dates because 'the least he could do'. I don't find it offensive or misogynistic.
Most men I know are a 2 or 3. My brother is a 2, my dad is a 3. The only 0 I know is my bff but he’s gay so
Level 3 definitely without a doubt
Bf is level 1, but I'm in the south so they're really aren't many 0s. 🤣
I’d say of the guys I had more than one date with, they were all 0 or 1. But I have a low tolerance for bullshit.
* **Dad was and all my close male friends are level 0** But in actuality, if there was level -1 then they would be in this category. Not very 50/50 when it comes to finances (as in, not only willing but feel it is their place to take care of me financially and help me with things that are heavy) but never once expected me to take care of them emotionally or do chores or fit into any traditional female role. Very supportive of me venturing out and quietly tells everyone (female, male, young and old) to allow me to do my own thing. My dad cooked and cleaned more than my mom on top of working 11+ hours a day, 6 days a week. My close male friends are also the same. They see girls/their S.O. doing anything for them as a plus and not something owed to them. * **Little brother comes off like level 2 but can get all the way down to level 5** He pays for his gf but it's actually bc he wants to sleep with her. He sees girls outside of his sexual and emotional interest as someone who should give *him* money. Believes girls who are not in these two categories (alluring vixens or nurturing caretakers) as a complete waste. For level 5.. the incel guys. I don't even think that they hate women. It's that they think they're owed a woman and are angry that's not the reality and take it out on women.
Mostly 0-2.
Missing from level 4 is a pimp type. This type is a kind of religious but with misogyny. They exist and can be very minorly religious. They consume a lot of porn and are extremely controlling. They may end up being the one who molests your children. I had a partner like this. (I didn't have children with him, but he ended up being a p*dophile who was caught with underage children.) He was level 4, not very religious but had misogynist standards like it was his religion.
Tbh, I would categorize any men who hurt people around them (sexually, physically, emotionally, whatever) as a level 5, no matter the offense. If they’re dangerous, they’re level 5.
Ok. It's your system so kudos for the bravery in creating it and sharing it here! I just think it's important to say not all "level 5" are incels, religious or even obviously misogynist. Think of those who do a murder-suicide with "no warning." Yet they were a level 3 their whole life, boiling underneath with a "I'll be good as long as x conditions are met". Similarly a lot of CSA goes along hand and hand with men who are very very good at being "good guys". It's wrong to think that just because a guy is a liberal or unreligious or supports women's liberation that he isn't downloading 2 million gigs of CP. My p*do abuser was a man bun hippie yoga teacher (real fact). But he was also a porn addict who slowly showed he had inherent views of women as inferior and explicitly venerated pimps and pornographers.
Bf- 0 Dad- 4 (maybe a 3 now since age has softened him) Exes- ranged from 2-4 Most of the men I interacted with through my social circles- 2-3
I have an acquaintance who was definitely a 4/5 that bad. Like the guy got broken up with and his first thought was to go onto a dating app and make the most misogynistic comments out there about people's dating profiles. I wasn't there since I don't really associate with the guy all that much and I really don't want to. But from what I hear from someone who I do think is a close friend it was terrible. Is a self-professed conservative and stubborn as a god damn rock. I cautioned my friend to watch closely cause he's there, he's just standing on that pipe if he's not already there. Also incredibly racist too, I do not fuck with that shit and can't stand it.
Level 2-3, with some 4s. I’ve only ever met a couple of 0s. 1s are rare too. I’m reminded of the part of the book ‘the handmaids tale’ where June mentions that when she was prevented from working or having a bank account that her husband patronizing said it’s ok I’ll look after you and she could see that he really was ok with that. I think a lot of men are really ok with our oppression. Look at the male: female ratio in pro-choice marches. For most men it’s a woman’s problem. Until they have to pay child support…
I didn't realize that I was so lucky. My dad (76) and my husband (44) are both between a level zero and 1 on your scale. I think most men I am around are between a 1 and 2. Mid size city in the South.
each man I've met plays the max level they feel they can get away without consequences they are very bad at reading me, so they usually play the wrong level that's why you don't really know what true level you are dealing with until you are pregnant and have another young kid. only once leaving him becomes very difficult he shows his true colors
Referring to women as hoes
My dad is level 1. I think my brothers are all zero or 1. My partners have been like 0.5. Bad at executive function in ways that men are allowed to get away with and women are (mostly) conditioned out of, which is an effect of patriarchy more than an act of misogyny. I've always handled my own finances. All the men I am close to recognize women as fellow complex human beings. That's important to me.
I’ve had a 0, 3, 0, and 2. Most men I meet in my town are 1-2
Mostly level 2 and 3 for me but my current boss almost swings to a 4. He always seems surprised if I talk about doing home repairs or something else he sees as a man’s job. He will ask why my husband doesn’t do it. My husband is not mechanically inclined and has a low frustration tolerance so if he started a repair I would likely have to finish it or hire someone to finish it. He regularly assigns me more administrative type tasks than my male coworkers although I have one male coworker he also favors for administrative jobs. I work with a bunch of older dudes who are in the 2-3 range as well. I work with one or two younger guys who are a 1 or 0 on your scale.
I would say Level 3 was my son's father. I would say my last ex was a level 4, but expected me to work full time while maintaining the kids and household (if we had children, lots of conversation surrounding this). I'm more conservative about my wardrobe so that was never a problem. Your description is more severe than what I would say he was, but he had a lot of traditional views due to being raised Catholic and all years of Catholic school with Catholic colleges.
You forgot one very important aspect here. No man can be considered a level zero misogynist, no matter how well he behaves at home, unless he also STANDS UP TO OTHER MEN and calls them out on their misogyny. In all my life I have not yet met a single man who's willing to do this. Therefore I consider every man I've ever known misogynistic to some degree. Otherwise they wouldn't keep silent.
I agree with you, but I’d say that a level 0 would curate his entourage and actively avoid misogynistic men. I could see him actively speaking up.
I've only dated one guy seriously for 9 months, I won't say anything about the others because I didn't know them well enough. Tbh I didn't really know my only bf long enough to judge. I think you need to live with someone for years and even then they can unpleasantly surprise you. Men are far more capable of manipulation and acting skills than society gives them credit for. Based on his behavior, level 1. He used to occasionally my appearance though.
Married to a level 0 - had to marry younger than my age group to find him!
I've gone on too many dates with Level 5, unfortunately. Maybe hovering at Level 4, but it's rough. My dad is Level 4 for sure, so are many of my male relatives. I have a feeling a guy I recently liked was a Level 3 in disguise, pretending to be a Level 1. (He ghosted me not long after we hooked up despite being against hookup culture 🙄) To be honest I think most men are at about Level 3, and they don't think they're as misogynistic as they actually are.
Level 0
It's hard to group men together like that. My husband is definitely a 0 or maybe even less than 0, in that women may be better than men in many regards. I have dated level 3 men. I have worked with level 4 men. A great deal of men are level 2, my sister is married to one.
I know, it was just a “fun” little poll. But there are definitely many nuances and variations. Yes, I think the common man tends to be on level 2. Generally kind to his wife and women around him, but sometimes succumbs to his need to be validated by other men.
My dad’s a 1 that willfully turned himself into a 0 (once us kids were grown and moved out but whatever). My husband is a 1 that became a zero in our daughter’s first year of life. My 2 brothers are born 0’s. We all scrubbed the bathrooms, washed dishes, and pulled weeds side by side in childhood. They’re both single bachelors who take care of themselves beautifully and have good platonic friendships with women and I’m sure will have equal partnerships if they get married. Most of my coworkers are 1’s and about 25% are 2’s. We have a handful senior guys that are 3’s but they’ll be gone soon one way or another. Some of the younger ones are 0’s and the number is increasing.
Mostly levels 3 and 4
Misogyny gets thrown around to loosely, Men are mostly ignorant which lends them be more sexist than misogynistic with the “assumed roles” and “protector mindset” they don’t hate woman. Ironically woman can be more misandristic due to the misconception of misogyny.
I feel like a well adjusted 1 is basically not a problem, if that works for you. Most men I know are more like 0.5- they have unexamined disparaging beliefs about certain kinds of women and they don’t see how they passively benefit from patriarchy