If I say that, for example, I don't like Asgore as king and I would like Papyrus to be the legitimate and only king of the Underground, does that technically count as politics?
Omg me too! I have though of it like that for the longest time until I found what what it actually means and I still even think it as "mother fucker when" first thing when I see "mfw" lol
For those in need of enlightening, the rule is in reference to real world politics/events, anything political within the world of undertale/deltarune is fair game
Ignoring the subject of if there really is a genocide going on.
If it's a controversial subject that has nothing to do with Undertale there is no reason to bring it up here except for dividing the community of this subreddit.
You are not answering my question.
And also the situation that is happening right now in gaza is controversial because there are many people who support Israel in this conflict, unlike the war with Russia and Ukraine where everyone agreed that Ukraine is in the right.
because it's a bad faith question.
there are people who didn't support ukraine either, but the mods have decided that real life politics is okay, because they, and they assumed most of the sub, support ukraine.
you can't just turn around and say "no real life politics" after that, it's just hypocrisy.
The controversial thing is that both sides have very good arguments on what they're doing.
Israel - They attacked first, they rejected the two state solution, they're sometimes doing bad stuff to us, etc.
Palestine - It was originally our land, not everyone in palestine supports hamas, they're sometimes doing bad stuff to us, etc.
On the other hand, what can you say to argue that russia is in the right? not much
Israel does not have a good argument for what they are doing. History did not start on October 7th. Israel has only existed as a state for 75 years and it was created as a result of the [Nakba](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nakba). The Nakba was a series of massacres in Palestine that destroyed their culture and society. 700,000 Palestinians were forcefully expelled from their land which has led to Israel occupying 78% of Palestinian land.
Many massacres and displacements have been committed by Israel since the Nakba and Israel's current genocide has been devastating to the Palestinian population with over 25,000+ people killed including [10,000+ children](https://countingthekids.org/).
So why was Israel created? Jewish people have faced persecution and massacres/pogroms throughout history from the Roman Inquisition in Spain to the most devastating massacre in history--the Holocaust. As a result of this anti-Semitism and racism, Zionism became popular as a movement. Zionism is a movement that is centered around creating a Jewish state where Jewish people can escape the persecution that they have faced throughout history. Theodore Herzl, the founder of Zionism, believed that Jewish people would continue to face persecution as long as they were minorities and thought that if a Jewish majority state was created Jews could finally live in security. In order to create this Jewish state, Herzl created an alliance with Great Britain during the late 1800s. [Uganda was considered as a location for the state](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uganda_Scheme), but Palestine was eventually decided on as many Zionists claimed it as a national homeland.
After and during the Holocaust, an immense amount of Jews moved to Palestine (partly because of European countries' and America's [refusal to relax immigration laws for Jewish immigrants](https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/the-united-states-and-the-refugee-crisis-1938-41)). The Nakba was then committed during 1948 and Palestinians were massacres and displaced as outlined above. Many Palestinians still hold on to [keys](https://mpp-dc.org/gallery/keys-of-the-right-of-return/) to their original houses as a symbol that they will one day return to the houses that they were displaced from.
In this way Zionism can be classified as a settler colonial movement that has forcefully expelled and murdered Palestinians in order to establish a Jewish state. Also, conflating Judaism and Zionism is completely wrong as many Jews oppose Zionism because of the fact that it has caused so much suffering for the Palestinian population.
Israel has also put the Gaza Strip under a blockade since 2007 which has restricted the flow of essential goods, contributed to the economic hardship of Gazans and limited many of their [freedoms](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blockade_of_the_Gaza_Strip). Israel's justification for this blockade is that they want to stop Hamas from acquiring arms, but this justification is not sufficient as persecuting a whole population for the actions of one political group is collective punishment. The ICJ has recently ruled on Friday that Israel is to stop genocidal acts and prevent any more [genocide from happening (click on the order of 26 January 2024 to see the ICJ's ruling)](https://www.icj-cij.org/case/192)
Israel's persecution of Palestinians is very similar to early America's persecution of Native Americans as both countries' goal is/was to erase the cultures that had existed in the land before and replace them with the cultures of the settler population (in Israel's case it would be Zionism).
The only reason why Israel's occupation of Palestine is considered more controversial than Russia's occupation of Ukraine is because of the fact that major Western nations unconditionally back Israel and send them the weapons and bombs to genocide the Palestinian population. America does this because Israel represents its interests in the region and only because Israel represents its interests in the Middle East [(Here's a clip of Joe Biden arguing about the importance of Israel to America)](https://youtu.be/FYLNCcLfIkM?si=avQ3BEY8Nr86AfwG).
This is a very long reddit post, but it barely scratches the surface of the history of Zionism as a settler colonial movement and the history of the genocide that Palestinians face to this day.
If you want to learn more about the occupation of Gaza, I would recommend Ilan Pappe's [The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ethnic_Cleansing_of_Palestine). He's an Israeli historian, which eliminates any Palestinian bias and the book is an informing but harrowing read.
I would urge anybody who's reading this post to educate themselves and understand the situation in Palestine. This is an issue which people decades from now will look back and say "How did decent people watch this happen and do nothing to stop it." Speaking up about Palestine and donating to Palestinian organizations are a few ways in which you can do something to help the Palestinian plight. [Donating eSIMs](https://twitter.com/pixeIpastry/status/1749630552217653349?t=iDnLDNJvhkNt5JmvJ8v7Gg&s=19) [More Instructions](https://twitter.com/TanjiroBunny/status/1749664186613784598?t=dFuwrM83OBLVWIO4MwHIyA&s=19)
Also I want to say that this post isn't meant to defend Russia's occupation of Ukraine in any way. I find Russia's actions deplorable and disgusting.
if you did like a few minutes of research you would find that palestine absolutely did not attack first lol, also israel is literally the one that is rejecting a two state solution
No, it's controversial because it's a hundred year long conflict with both sides having good and bad arguments in doing what they do, unlike in Ukraine Russia, where Russia has nothing
"Ignoring the subject of if there really is a genocide going on."
Oh so when its Palestinian being genocided, yall suddenly choose to ignore. Because supporting Ukrainian get you guys more brownie points, amirite?
Calling it genocide is HIGHLY debatable, seeing as the icj the people who are trained to see it found no evidence besides claims made by mks who aren't in the war cabinet thus make no decision regarding the war
So they just told them to put a muzzle on said mks
UNDERTALE is a game about a civilization who were massacred in bulk under the guise of a 'war' by their oppressors and driven away from their homes and land, unjustly punishing an entire people, including children and innocent civilians. After generations of their society being imprisoned just for existing, you arrive, and have the option to treat them with kindness, leading to the game's good ending in which you help FREE them, or further enact the GENOCIDE done upon them for the worst ending. And, of course, the various "neutral" endings in which nothing is done to help them and their senseless suffering continues indefinitely.
But please, tell me how what is happening in Palestine has "nothing to do" with UNDERTALE.
The situation is way more complicated in real life than it is in Undertale so yes it has nothing to do with each other. Saying both situations are the same is misinformation and propaganda.
Also as long as I know in undertale we only know that there has been a war between monsters and humans and the monsters lost and have been banished, that's it any more information is basically fannon.
There’s a place for all of this and it isn’t here. It’s terrible what’s happening in Palestine right now, but surely there’s a better place to post it?
Lots of people did. They were just shut down. I didn't want to see all the ukraine posts or watch my fave subreddits go dark. I don't want to see the Palestine Israeli conflict everywhere either. I just got shut down when I complained. It's just this time, people aren't being downvoted to hell for not wanting to see it.
If you're tired of hearing about Palestine when you're literally just chilling on your phone in your house,imagine how tired the people actually there must be
No, actually, this person needs to be answered. I’ll try to give you an answer based on what I’ve seen, sir, but take it with a grain of salt.
So all the way back when the Ukraine Russia war started, this subreddit had an Ukraine flag for months in clear showcase of support. Then somehow the issue of the Israel Palestine war shows up, and people are making posts on here of all places, so there’s that issue to make Toby Fox’s life happier. Then the issue of “oh why are people so biased against Palestine compared to Ukraine” shows up????
I’m only slightly less confused then you.
There are only a handful of Ukraine posts, but a flood of Palestine posts; I literally can’t remember the last time I saw a post from this sub on my feed that didn’t mention it.
Ukraine was also about as straightforward as geopolitics can be, with Russia being very clearly in the wrong. With Palestine, both sides have done wrong and also have good reasons for fighting.
The mods had to delete a few of the Palestine posts for a variety of reasons ranging from posters making no effort to connect the post to Undertale, posters didn’t credit someone’s original artwork, or espousing extremist views. People took this out of context and made more Palestine posts in response.
What annoys me in this war is that everyone is forcing everyone to pick a extremist stand. No, I'm not in favor of what Israel is doing, but I'm not in favor of what Hamas did either.
Yeah. It’s genuinely hard to not be radicalized one way or the other. I’ll admit that I myself have ended up on the more pro-Israel side, but I’m not insane enough to say that Israel can do no wrong. The radicalization caused by social media is insane.
Just to clarify, I am pro Palestine, but there is something called a time and a place, and there is a reason why "no politics" is a common rule to have in servers.
As someone who came a cross this post randomly allow me to give my opinion.
I'd argue there is a difference between ukraine's situation and Israel's in a lot of things... How controversial, the agressor, scale, religion (or lack of thereof).
To put it blunty, the Israel-palestine conflict is a massive moral quaqmire of proxys, propaganda, religious beliefs, antisemitism AND islamophobia, response to response, diplomatic disruption, and a blurring line between civilian and combatant... Nearly a century of zealotry and grudges tend to do that.
Whereas ukraine was fairly simple (simple as geopolitics go) and russia waging an actual war of conquest in this day and age with the utmost shitty casus beli of modern history made the general consensus around the World pretty uncontroversial and cut and clean...
To put it simply, the ukraine war is far less likely to start harmful drama and controversy as where as the Israel-palestine ordeal is infinetely more divisive and likely to start fights... Additionally checking on the subs history real quick I can say one was far less intrusive than the other, doesnt help that one keeps using the slogan "from the river to the sea"...
No shit? When things aren't black and white one large superpower country invaded the other of course it's more complicated. Both heads of state in Israel and Palestine have expressly said that they want to remove the other off the face of the planet. The idea that everyone has to pick a goddamn team to root for in a war is ridiculous. Especially in a subreddit for a 7-year-old game.
The hell you mean "was", what's with the Past Tense? You people you know war isn't over , right? Russia is still killing people after those two years.
Just stop saying llike its something in the past for God's sake
I was referring to the first months of the war where everywhere you’d turn you’d see a Ukrainian flag. We’ve very clearly passed that stage, hence the past tense
Oh, I get it. I just genuinely ask people to don't forget about us as I've already seen several people surprised that the Rusian war against Ukraine is still ongoing and hasn't been over as soon as all the media hype ended.
Also Syria. I feel an obligation to ask people to not forget about Syria as that is the only I can do.
Palestine has done some rather questionable things and have some people who said and done some things that are quite "anti-Semitic". Not to said Ukraine has done but some questionable, but let just said both Israel and Palestine both done some awful things in the name of their state
except, israel is a state that was created by britain after mass massacres that forced the majority of palestinians to run away, with the current attacks being zionist and NOT from judaism, the whole reason why that was possible in the first place is because palestine along with other muslim countries accepted the jewish refugees during WW2. Not only is it not anti semitic, its not the same as the ukraine russia situation. that situation is a war. this situation is a straight up second mass massacre made to drive palestinians away after the MULTIPLE MASSACRES OVER THE DECADES didnt succeed in making them go away, in order to get uninterrupted access to a large gas settlement discovered recently
not to mention the idf had no reason to be that late on october 7t, a full day is absurd, not to mention the idf have and are regularly instructed to kill civilians rather than allocate resources to help them (that is as vague as it sounds, with proof that it happened), not to mention that on that incident the death count was just 70-80, which even though i know i shouldnt compare lives, you can already guess the rest
Ukraine didn't sneak into Russia and purposely murder 1100 civilians, rape people and take hostages in one day to provoke a response. That's why it was not complicated.
You can feel Israel is evil all you want and even think the state should be dismantled, 1100 of their civilians were brutally murdered overnight. Israel did not launch their current massive military campaign unprovoked like Russia did.
Plenty of people on Reddit openly support both Hamas and Houthis, even running apologia for the slave trade of the latter, I can't believe you honestly haven't noticed.
Okay, let's give you the trolley problem, there are babies, women, elderly people and terrorists lying on the same rails. on other rails lie all your relatives, neighbors, as well as babies and elderly people. Who will you let die? this is situation where Israel in.
Or something else, think about what will happen if one of the parties lays down their arms and ceases hostilities?
the trolley problem is supposed to be an impossible scenario for a reason lol
they have the capabilities to do precision operations, yet they resort to carpet bombing any area where they vaguely know someone they want to kill is there
surely you know this is a literal war crime right?
Ain’t no fucking way. Not only is there evidence of Israel knowing the original attack was gonna take place (but they did nothing to justify a retaliation). But killing innocents is not gonna kill any terrorists. If they were going after terrorist locations, sure, but they’re not, they’re going after refugee locations. What’s worse, they’re making propaganda about how THEYRE the victims, all the while a majority of Israeli people go on Tik tok and mock the killings of Palestinians. Put your fucking trolleys away, and come back to reality
that's a pretty good point, but I wasn't active on the sub when that happened so I have no right to comment on it, I just think that a lot of people drop "no politics" and such incredibly quickly when it's their ideology being shown.
Wait, is it or is it not? From what i've heard both of the countries have been having holy wars for a piece of land for decades now, but I don't research much about it so idk.
While Palestine is not truly virtuous (just research shows like Pioneers of Tomorrow which brainwashed children into a life of terrorism), both Palestine and Israel are at war rn, and Israel is targeting civilian and refugee areas. Basically, Israel is instigating a genocide of the Palestinian people under the pretence of a war that’s meant to kill terrorists
oh, just the average war crimes, i honestly think every nation has commited one of those, ok being serious for a moment, even if one of them is being worse than the other i still don't like the thought of supporting any of them seeing as they are in a religious war and both of them sound like they would completly exterminate the other country if they had the chance, but i guess i understand the support for palestine now.
i still feel like there is a lot of context behind this im missing, since all this hate must come from somewhere, but i ain't dedicated enough to do research, best of lucks to you.
Honestly going on Twitter (yes, I know, Twitter ew) for just 5 minutes will probably give you enough video evidence to see how atrocious Israel is but to each their own I guess
Dude, I come here to see posts about Undertale, and giggle at comments made by the roleplayers. I don’t want to go to this sub and be bombarded with real world politics, even ones I agree with. I kinda want to forget for a few minutes just how shitty the world can be.
I don't really have an opinion on any of the wars happening, but please God keep politics out of a video game subreddit, whether I agree with it or not.
If Ukraine started a war with Russia by committing hundreds of war crimes by torturing, burning, killing, raping 1200 people, the support for Ukraine would be practically non-existent
wdym without bias? this sub changed its icon to ukraines flag in support of them during the war but deleted posts about palestine. That seems pretty biased
Until you address Hamas’ use of human shields and the broad support it has among Palestinians, then I’d say it’s much more complicated than the Russia Ukraine war.
My country had a terrorist group once that advocated for the independence of a province. Bombing said province was never considered as a solution
No, I don't think it's that complicated
You mean the defacto government committed one of the most horrific attacks in living memory, kidnapping over a hundred people (and literally raped some of them to death), killed over a thousand more, and have, both before and after, engaged in a nearly non-stop bombing campaign with the express, *repeatedly stated*, intent of genocide.
The response to this clear declaration of war has been, well, war. War in an urban environment. Which means a horrific amount of civilian casualties.
You can't just slap the genocide label on everything you don't like.
Have you people been living under a rock for the past decade? This isnt just a new development. Yes what Hamas did was bad, obviously. Most of us have condemned their actions and we dont support that. But Israel's been committing heinous acts for over 75 years.
My guy palestinian citizens have been getting bombed for months now, all they schools years have been canceled because most of the students have neen killed by israel, but of course, all of this senseless slaughter of civilians is justified because hamas is bad
Oh wow, hamas, one organisation within Palestine doing radical and bad things. Not like that exists IN EVERY FUCKING COUNTRY. You are so clearly brainwashed it’s laughable
Palestine hasn't had free elections in, like, twenty fucking years since Hamas came into power. John Oliver has a great video on the matter.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pJ9PKQbkJv8
The last free election they had they voted for Hamas, and 90% of Palestinians still support Hamas.
https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-palestinians-opinion-poll-wartime-views-a0baade915619cd070b5393844bc4514
Where are your figures for "the majority of Gaza" supporting them? If you watch the video I linked, you'll see Hamas lied to get into power, and then stopped allowing democratic elections once they got into power.
A point made in the video is that, if people are responsible for who they vote for, then every US citizen who's voted is now responsible for the war crimes committed by the US government.
Food for thought.
There’s a difference between voting for a politician from one of America’s 2 major political parties vs voting for a literal terrorist organization. And the fact that you’re trying to justify war crimes at all with a whataboutism is fucking horrendous.
hamas creates a serious danger for Israel and as the Israelis themselves said, the lives of their own citizens are more valuable to them, so there are two sides of the coin, or the death of Israeli civilians or Palestinian civilians.
💀I thought this sub was about the hit indie game Undertale made by Toby Fox, not about politics, I can’t wait for the mods to change the sub icon to which ever country that is at war next.
If the subreddit changes their pfps to support ukraine then least they can do is allow Palestine posts, Otherwise it is very hypocritical.
Regardless I am glad the posts are back up, bringing attention to the Palestinian situation is very Important and In'sha'allah they will be free
You, pushing your glasses up your nose: "Heh, I bet my opponents will have a salient point about the no politics rule not being enforced in similar circumstances. The fools!"
I don’t really take a stand in stuff like this, but from what I’m seeing, I personally think that the Ukraine and Palestine issues are different. First, Ukraine already had established itself as a state, and Russia was trying to take the land back unfairly, I think it would be obvious whether who is the victim here.
However, Israel v Palestine is WAY more complicated than Ukraine. To sum it up, both states are victims of a superimposed border that was made after WW1. Both states have killed people, (in Palestine’s case, HAMAS to be specific) and it makes it less obvious on which side to support. Once again, I don’t have an opinion on which side I support, but I just want to say that both scenarios are completely different cases.
Why do I have to say this in the Undertale subreddit ;-;
Tbh not the biggest fan of how they're handling this because while they meant for it to just be allowed to he mentioned people took it as a greenlight to only post about that
but at the same time this also kinda applies to a shit ton of posts even aside from this, because if we're gonna count "Not supporting a genocide" as a political view and banning that also ban all mentions of characters being LGBT because "That's for interpretation and a political view" but it doesn't work that way and exceptions are made because common fucking sense exists
This isn't politics. Innocent people are getting slaughtered, this isn't a matter of opinions where there is no correct answer and its up for debate. Free Palestine.
If I say that, for example, I don't like Asgore as king and I would like Papyrus to be the legitimate and only king of the Underground, does that technically count as politics?
You shall be executed by the state
King Asgore's dictatorship at its best. You can silence me, but you will never silence the people!
RISE! ASGORE IS OPPRESSING US! PAPYRUS WILL SAVE US!
undertale AU where asgore is a bitch and papyrus and undyne lead a resistance to overthrow asgore
i thought of an au like that but it was kinda mid someone else could probably do better tho
COME SEE THE VIOLENCE INHERENT IN THE SYSTEM! HELP! HELP! I'M BEING REPRESSED!
A man of culture, I see.
It would be hilarious if the mods actually removed this for being too political.
Mods, crush his skull, thank you.
Yesn't
It’s in game politics so it would be ok but it’s annoying to see real world politics everywhere
monarchy isnt a good political system can we ban this man
**Give us your balls.**
Well if there’s an issue, a skeleton will tell a fish lady about it. Thaaaaaaats politics!
I’m sorry but the only good kings that there could be are Mettaton and Annoying Dog
\>Mettaton \>good king :/
But nobody beats the dog
No but that is a horrible take nonetheless, this is counting real world politics(I think, ime not a mod so…)
Yes it does, but only because I don't like it and would rather have Mettaton as King.
Yes. The only exception is wanting Toby to rule.
get undyne in office she has the balls to get stuff done
So you're saying Toriel, Undyne, Mettaton, and Asgore must die. Okay.
No because you talking about in game politics without taking any real countries or/and regimes
Does anyone else read mfw as "Mother fucker when-"
genuine question, what does it stand for?
My face when
I think it's either "My feeling when" or "My face when"
Tfw = “that feeling when” or “that face when”, but I’ve never seen mfw mean feeling tho
Wait that isn’t what it means?
is that not what it is!?
Nope. It means 'my face when'
Omg me too! I have though of it like that for the longest time until I found what what it actually means and I still even think it as "mother fucker when" first thing when I see "mfw" lol
thing is I can't find different between this and mfw
I thought that was how its read-
It isn't?
I always read mfw as motherfuckers when
I thought it was..........
For those in need of enlightening, the rule is in reference to real world politics/events, anything political within the world of undertale/deltarune is fair game
Thaaaaaat's politics!
What do you think, did Officer Undyne ever racially profile folks?
Maybe humans
If there’s ever a problem, a skeleton will tell a fish lady about it. Thaaaaat’s politics!
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There does seem to be a difference between changing a banner and pfp as opposed to filling a subreddit with political posts. A slight difference
the original argument was "this subreddit doesn't allow politics, it's a rule that's enforced without bias" so what is it?
the difference is that posts allow for flame wars to be sparked in the comments, banners do not.
Holy shit I don’t think you can be any more disingenuous
The situation with gaza is more controversial than Ukraine. Everyone supported Ukraine but now it's way more divided
The thread that started after this reply is the perfect example of why this shouldn't be allowed lmao, started a political debate as always
"Genocide is bad" shouldn't be a controversial statement
Ignoring the subject of if there really is a genocide going on. If it's a controversial subject that has nothing to do with Undertale there is no reason to bring it up here except for dividing the community of this subreddit.
Then the sub icon shouldn't have changed for Ukraine either, seen as that was a controversial subject that had nothing to do with Undertale.
What was controversial about it?
What's controversial about what's happening in palestine?
You are not answering my question. And also the situation that is happening right now in gaza is controversial because there are many people who support Israel in this conflict, unlike the war with Russia and Ukraine where everyone agreed that Ukraine is in the right.
because it's a bad faith question. there are people who didn't support ukraine either, but the mods have decided that real life politics is okay, because they, and they assumed most of the sub, support ukraine. you can't just turn around and say "no real life politics" after that, it's just hypocrisy.
The controversial thing is that both sides have very good arguments on what they're doing. Israel - They attacked first, they rejected the two state solution, they're sometimes doing bad stuff to us, etc. Palestine - It was originally our land, not everyone in palestine supports hamas, they're sometimes doing bad stuff to us, etc. On the other hand, what can you say to argue that russia is in the right? not much
Israel does not have a good argument for what they are doing. History did not start on October 7th. Israel has only existed as a state for 75 years and it was created as a result of the [Nakba](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nakba). The Nakba was a series of massacres in Palestine that destroyed their culture and society. 700,000 Palestinians were forcefully expelled from their land which has led to Israel occupying 78% of Palestinian land. Many massacres and displacements have been committed by Israel since the Nakba and Israel's current genocide has been devastating to the Palestinian population with over 25,000+ people killed including [10,000+ children](https://countingthekids.org/). So why was Israel created? Jewish people have faced persecution and massacres/pogroms throughout history from the Roman Inquisition in Spain to the most devastating massacre in history--the Holocaust. As a result of this anti-Semitism and racism, Zionism became popular as a movement. Zionism is a movement that is centered around creating a Jewish state where Jewish people can escape the persecution that they have faced throughout history. Theodore Herzl, the founder of Zionism, believed that Jewish people would continue to face persecution as long as they were minorities and thought that if a Jewish majority state was created Jews could finally live in security. In order to create this Jewish state, Herzl created an alliance with Great Britain during the late 1800s. [Uganda was considered as a location for the state](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uganda_Scheme), but Palestine was eventually decided on as many Zionists claimed it as a national homeland. After and during the Holocaust, an immense amount of Jews moved to Palestine (partly because of European countries' and America's [refusal to relax immigration laws for Jewish immigrants](https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/the-united-states-and-the-refugee-crisis-1938-41)). The Nakba was then committed during 1948 and Palestinians were massacres and displaced as outlined above. Many Palestinians still hold on to [keys](https://mpp-dc.org/gallery/keys-of-the-right-of-return/) to their original houses as a symbol that they will one day return to the houses that they were displaced from. In this way Zionism can be classified as a settler colonial movement that has forcefully expelled and murdered Palestinians in order to establish a Jewish state. Also, conflating Judaism and Zionism is completely wrong as many Jews oppose Zionism because of the fact that it has caused so much suffering for the Palestinian population. Israel has also put the Gaza Strip under a blockade since 2007 which has restricted the flow of essential goods, contributed to the economic hardship of Gazans and limited many of their [freedoms](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blockade_of_the_Gaza_Strip). Israel's justification for this blockade is that they want to stop Hamas from acquiring arms, but this justification is not sufficient as persecuting a whole population for the actions of one political group is collective punishment. The ICJ has recently ruled on Friday that Israel is to stop genocidal acts and prevent any more [genocide from happening (click on the order of 26 January 2024 to see the ICJ's ruling)](https://www.icj-cij.org/case/192) Israel's persecution of Palestinians is very similar to early America's persecution of Native Americans as both countries' goal is/was to erase the cultures that had existed in the land before and replace them with the cultures of the settler population (in Israel's case it would be Zionism). The only reason why Israel's occupation of Palestine is considered more controversial than Russia's occupation of Ukraine is because of the fact that major Western nations unconditionally back Israel and send them the weapons and bombs to genocide the Palestinian population. America does this because Israel represents its interests in the region and only because Israel represents its interests in the Middle East [(Here's a clip of Joe Biden arguing about the importance of Israel to America)](https://youtu.be/FYLNCcLfIkM?si=avQ3BEY8Nr86AfwG). This is a very long reddit post, but it barely scratches the surface of the history of Zionism as a settler colonial movement and the history of the genocide that Palestinians face to this day. If you want to learn more about the occupation of Gaza, I would recommend Ilan Pappe's [The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ethnic_Cleansing_of_Palestine). He's an Israeli historian, which eliminates any Palestinian bias and the book is an informing but harrowing read. I would urge anybody who's reading this post to educate themselves and understand the situation in Palestine. This is an issue which people decades from now will look back and say "How did decent people watch this happen and do nothing to stop it." Speaking up about Palestine and donating to Palestinian organizations are a few ways in which you can do something to help the Palestinian plight. [Donating eSIMs](https://twitter.com/pixeIpastry/status/1749630552217653349?t=iDnLDNJvhkNt5JmvJ8v7Gg&s=19) [More Instructions](https://twitter.com/TanjiroBunny/status/1749664186613784598?t=dFuwrM83OBLVWIO4MwHIyA&s=19) Also I want to say that this post isn't meant to defend Russia's occupation of Ukraine in any way. I find Russia's actions deplorable and disgusting.
if you did like a few minutes of research you would find that palestine absolutely did not attack first lol, also israel is literally the one that is rejecting a two state solution
So killing innocent people, cutting food and electricity, boombing civilian settlements is a justifiable reaction?
"erm... it's only controversial if it's a political opinion I disagree with!" go away with that bullshit man
No, it's controversial because it's a hundred year long conflict with both sides having good and bad arguments in doing what they do, unlike in Ukraine Russia, where Russia has nothing
"Ignoring the subject of if there really is a genocide going on." Oh so when its Palestinian being genocided, yall suddenly choose to ignore. Because supporting Ukrainian get you guys more brownie points, amirite?
Calling it genocide is HIGHLY debatable, seeing as the icj the people who are trained to see it found no evidence besides claims made by mks who aren't in the war cabinet thus make no decision regarding the war So they just told them to put a muzzle on said mks
UNDERTALE is a game about a civilization who were massacred in bulk under the guise of a 'war' by their oppressors and driven away from their homes and land, unjustly punishing an entire people, including children and innocent civilians. After generations of their society being imprisoned just for existing, you arrive, and have the option to treat them with kindness, leading to the game's good ending in which you help FREE them, or further enact the GENOCIDE done upon them for the worst ending. And, of course, the various "neutral" endings in which nothing is done to help them and their senseless suffering continues indefinitely. But please, tell me how what is happening in Palestine has "nothing to do" with UNDERTALE.
The situation is way more complicated in real life than it is in Undertale so yes it has nothing to do with each other. Saying both situations are the same is misinformation and propaganda. Also as long as I know in undertale we only know that there has been a war between monsters and humans and the monsters lost and have been banished, that's it any more information is basically fannon.
So you're saying the Israelis are humans and Palestinians are monsters? Kinda racist my dude not gonna lie.
It's not a genocide though as the the icj trial showed
"rules are applied without bias" was the original statement. allowing posts based on the expected reaction = not bias? how so?
"everyone" absolutely did not support Ukraine that is such obvious bullshit
Sounds like you support Putin
The deleted posts were made in excess, had very little effort made to connect them to Undertale, or espoused extremist views.
Not to get political, but what the fuck is oatmeal?
A meal of oats Now shut up about politics or ill report you
Unrelated to the post but I love your flair!
and I hate yours, please have a horrible next 2 and a half minutes until this goes away.
Will do, thank you
im stealing your flair
Good.
I'm in the way to be the most Jerriest guy in this subreddit and my opponents is political Kids (I'll lose):
There’s a place for all of this and it isn’t here. It’s terrible what’s happening in Palestine right now, but surely there’s a better place to post it?
How come nobody said this when it was about Ukraine?
Don’t ask me, I wasn’t here when that was happening.
Lots of people did. They were just shut down. I didn't want to see all the ukraine posts or watch my fave subreddits go dark. I don't want to see the Palestine Israeli conflict everywhere either. I just got shut down when I complained. It's just this time, people aren't being downvoted to hell for not wanting to see it.
If you're tired of hearing about Palestine when you're literally just chilling on your phone in your house,imagine how tired the people actually there must be
Search “Ukraine” on this sub. Very few posts come up. We weren’t being flooded with it.
They literally changed the icon
And how many people pay attention to the icon? https://www.reddit.com/r/Undertale/s/8l44bPdPI8
Holy shit you guys are stupid
what post started the whole palestine drama in this subreddit, anyway?
...what heppened?
No, actually, this person needs to be answered. I’ll try to give you an answer based on what I’ve seen, sir, but take it with a grain of salt. So all the way back when the Ukraine Russia war started, this subreddit had an Ukraine flag for months in clear showcase of support. Then somehow the issue of the Israel Palestine war shows up, and people are making posts on here of all places, so there’s that issue to make Toby Fox’s life happier. Then the issue of “oh why are people so biased against Palestine compared to Ukraine” shows up???? I’m only slightly less confused then you.
There are only a handful of Ukraine posts, but a flood of Palestine posts; I literally can’t remember the last time I saw a post from this sub on my feed that didn’t mention it. Ukraine was also about as straightforward as geopolitics can be, with Russia being very clearly in the wrong. With Palestine, both sides have done wrong and also have good reasons for fighting. The mods had to delete a few of the Palestine posts for a variety of reasons ranging from posters making no effort to connect the post to Undertale, posters didn’t credit someone’s original artwork, or espousing extremist views. People took this out of context and made more Palestine posts in response.
I’m 100% pro Palestine (except Hamas of course) but seriously? Here?
Finally. Someone who is pro-Palestine but not pro-terrorism.
What annoys me in this war is that everyone is forcing everyone to pick a extremist stand. No, I'm not in favor of what Israel is doing, but I'm not in favor of what Hamas did either.
Yeah. It’s genuinely hard to not be radicalized one way or the other. I’ll admit that I myself have ended up on the more pro-Israel side, but I’m not insane enough to say that Israel can do no wrong. The radicalization caused by social media is insane.
Just to clarify, I am pro Palestine, but there is something called a time and a place, and there is a reason why "no politics" is a common rule to have in servers.
except they literally did it for Ukraine 💀 whats the difference
they changed the Subreddit picture, which they planning to do for this war, too. However, I remember posts about the Uktraine war still being banned.
50 years from now you'll be telling your kids about how you stood up for the subreddit rules
What does mfw means?
My face when
As someone who came a cross this post randomly allow me to give my opinion. I'd argue there is a difference between ukraine's situation and Israel's in a lot of things... How controversial, the agressor, scale, religion (or lack of thereof). To put it blunty, the Israel-palestine conflict is a massive moral quaqmire of proxys, propaganda, religious beliefs, antisemitism AND islamophobia, response to response, diplomatic disruption, and a blurring line between civilian and combatant... Nearly a century of zealotry and grudges tend to do that. Whereas ukraine was fairly simple (simple as geopolitics go) and russia waging an actual war of conquest in this day and age with the utmost shitty casus beli of modern history made the general consensus around the World pretty uncontroversial and cut and clean... To put it simply, the ukraine war is far less likely to start harmful drama and controversy as where as the Israel-palestine ordeal is infinetely more divisive and likely to start fights... Additionally checking on the subs history real quick I can say one was far less intrusive than the other, doesnt help that one keeps using the slogan "from the river to the sea"...
Imagine bringing that nonsense to the undertale reddit of all things. Actually sad and pathetic
then why was the subreddit icon a ukraine flag last year
When Ukraine was in trouble everyone and their mums changed pfps. But since it’s Palestine it’s “more complicated”. Mhm, sure.
This subreddit had the Ukrainian flag for almost a year but yeah no politics right
No shit? When things aren't black and white one large superpower country invaded the other of course it's more complicated. Both heads of state in Israel and Palestine have expressly said that they want to remove the other off the face of the planet. The idea that everyone has to pick a goddamn team to root for in a war is ridiculous. Especially in a subreddit for a 7-year-old game.
Yeah I find it kinda weird too. Aren't they victims as well or smh?
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Damn, I REALLY wonder what one here has the other doesn't... Both genocide justified by false claims... What could possibly differ? Hm-m-m...
The hell you mean "was", what's with the Past Tense? You people you know war isn't over , right? Russia is still killing people after those two years. Just stop saying llike its something in the past for God's sake
I was referring to the first months of the war where everywhere you’d turn you’d see a Ukrainian flag. We’ve very clearly passed that stage, hence the past tense
Oh, I get it. I just genuinely ask people to don't forget about us as I've already seen several people surprised that the Rusian war against Ukraine is still ongoing and hasn't been over as soon as all the media hype ended. Also Syria. I feel an obligation to ask people to not forget about Syria as that is the only I can do.
Oh fuck. What is happening is Syria?
Palestine has done some rather questionable things and have some people who said and done some things that are quite "anti-Semitic". Not to said Ukraine has done but some questionable, but let just said both Israel and Palestine both done some awful things in the name of their state
except, israel is a state that was created by britain after mass massacres that forced the majority of palestinians to run away, with the current attacks being zionist and NOT from judaism, the whole reason why that was possible in the first place is because palestine along with other muslim countries accepted the jewish refugees during WW2. Not only is it not anti semitic, its not the same as the ukraine russia situation. that situation is a war. this situation is a straight up second mass massacre made to drive palestinians away after the MULTIPLE MASSACRES OVER THE DECADES didnt succeed in making them go away, in order to get uninterrupted access to a large gas settlement discovered recently not to mention the idf had no reason to be that late on october 7t, a full day is absurd, not to mention the idf have and are regularly instructed to kill civilians rather than allocate resources to help them (that is as vague as it sounds, with proof that it happened), not to mention that on that incident the death count was just 70-80, which even though i know i shouldnt compare lives, you can already guess the rest
Ukraine didn't sneak into Russia and purposely murder 1100 civilians, rape people and take hostages in one day to provoke a response. That's why it was not complicated. You can feel Israel is evil all you want and even think the state should be dismantled, 1100 of their civilians were brutally murdered overnight. Israel did not launch their current massive military campaign unprovoked like Russia did.
Neither did the Palestinian civilians currently being bombed. Nobody is saying support Hamas.
Actually a lot of civilians took part in returning escaped hostages to hamas
Plenty of people on Reddit openly support both Hamas and Houthis, even running apologia for the slave trade of the latter, I can't believe you honestly haven't noticed.
Ukraine did not attack russia with the aim of terror and genocide before full-scale war began \*bop your nose\*
Oh well I guess that justifies the killings of civilians, babies and the elderly!
Okay, let's give you the trolley problem, there are babies, women, elderly people and terrorists lying on the same rails. on other rails lie all your relatives, neighbors, as well as babies and elderly people. Who will you let die? this is situation where Israel in. Or something else, think about what will happen if one of the parties lays down their arms and ceases hostilities?
the trolley problem is supposed to be an impossible scenario for a reason lol they have the capabilities to do precision operations, yet they resort to carpet bombing any area where they vaguely know someone they want to kill is there surely you know this is a literal war crime right?
Ain’t no fucking way. Not only is there evidence of Israel knowing the original attack was gonna take place (but they did nothing to justify a retaliation). But killing innocents is not gonna kill any terrorists. If they were going after terrorist locations, sure, but they’re not, they’re going after refugee locations. What’s worse, they’re making propaganda about how THEYRE the victims, all the while a majority of Israeli people go on Tik tok and mock the killings of Palestinians. Put your fucking trolleys away, and come back to reality
that's a pretty good point, but I wasn't active on the sub when that happened so I have no right to comment on it, I just think that a lot of people drop "no politics" and such incredibly quickly when it's their ideology being shown.
Wait, is it or is it not? From what i've heard both of the countries have been having holy wars for a piece of land for decades now, but I don't research much about it so idk.
While Palestine is not truly virtuous (just research shows like Pioneers of Tomorrow which brainwashed children into a life of terrorism), both Palestine and Israel are at war rn, and Israel is targeting civilian and refugee areas. Basically, Israel is instigating a genocide of the Palestinian people under the pretence of a war that’s meant to kill terrorists
oh, just the average war crimes, i honestly think every nation has commited one of those, ok being serious for a moment, even if one of them is being worse than the other i still don't like the thought of supporting any of them seeing as they are in a religious war and both of them sound like they would completly exterminate the other country if they had the chance, but i guess i understand the support for palestine now.
It’s not even religious cuz there’s plenty of Jews on Palestines side. It’s just a general “Israel hates Palestine” deal
i still feel like there is a lot of context behind this im missing, since all this hate must come from somewhere, but i ain't dedicated enough to do research, best of lucks to you.
Honestly going on Twitter (yes, I know, Twitter ew) for just 5 minutes will probably give you enough video evidence to see how atrocious Israel is but to each their own I guess
Nobody said anything when it was about Ukraine
How much post about Ukraine u saw here?
https://www.reddit.com/r/Undertale/s/8l44bPdPI8
Dude, I come here to see posts about Undertale, and giggle at comments made by the roleplayers. I don’t want to go to this sub and be bombarded with real world politics, even ones I agree with. I kinda want to forget for a few minutes just how shitty the world can be.
The problem with this is some people have a very broad criteria for what counts as politics.
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Always has been
Fr. This is ridiculous
I don't really have an opinion on any of the wars happening, but please God keep politics out of a video game subreddit, whether I agree with it or not.
What kind of politics could be discussed in an undertale sub reddit?how snail pies should be banned?
oh but when ukraine gets attacked then it’s alright to acknowledge their tragedies. i see how it is
https://www.reddit.com/r/Undertale/s/8l44bPdPI8
If Ukraine started a war with Russia by committing hundreds of war crimes by torturing, burning, killing, raping 1200 people, the support for Ukraine would be practically non-existent
zoo wee mama
we had a Ukrainian flag for months itz just straight hypocrisy
wdym without bias? this sub changed its icon to ukraines flag in support of them during the war but deleted posts about palestine. That seems pretty biased
that is pretty fair but that kinda happened a bit ago so I can't really say anything about it
Integrity, just remember the value of the blue soul
Y'all changed the fucking subreddit profile and banner for Ukraine but now delete pro-palestine post? What hypocrisy
One is run by a terrorist organization lmfao.
Literally everyone here was all for the Ukraine support but now that it’s Palestine it’s bad? You guys suck
Palestine invaded Israel at the beginning of the war
You can keep going back; this didn’t start in October of last year
Maybe those two situations are different?
why?
This situation is arguably worse. The fact that support for Ukraine was okay but Palestine isn’t is appalling and disgusting
Until you address Hamas’ use of human shields and the broad support it has among Palestinians, then I’d say it’s much more complicated than the Russia Ukraine war.
My country had a terrorist group once that advocated for the independence of a province. Bombing said province was never considered as a solution No, I don't think it's that complicated
Oh wow a small group in a country did bad things, better commit genocide!
You mean the defacto government committed one of the most horrific attacks in living memory, kidnapping over a hundred people (and literally raped some of them to death), killed over a thousand more, and have, both before and after, engaged in a nearly non-stop bombing campaign with the express, *repeatedly stated*, intent of genocide. The response to this clear declaration of war has been, well, war. War in an urban environment. Which means a horrific amount of civilian casualties. You can't just slap the genocide label on everything you don't like.
Have you people been living under a rock for the past decade? This isnt just a new development. Yes what Hamas did was bad, obviously. Most of us have condemned their actions and we dont support that. But Israel's been committing heinous acts for over 75 years.
Oh wow, Hamas attempts to commit genocide against Israel so you support Hamas.
My guy palestinian citizens have been getting bombed for months now, all they schools years have been canceled because most of the students have neen killed by israel, but of course, all of this senseless slaughter of civilians is justified because hamas is bad
Oh wow, hamas, one organisation within Palestine doing radical and bad things. Not like that exists IN EVERY FUCKING COUNTRY. You are so clearly brainwashed it’s laughable
the nazi party was 'one organization' in germany, that didn't stop the allies from bombing and shelling the fuck out of them
Hamas is the elected government of Gaza and has broad support among Gazans. Oh, and you.
Palestine hasn't had free elections in, like, twenty fucking years since Hamas came into power. John Oliver has a great video on the matter. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pJ9PKQbkJv8
The last free election they had they voted for Hamas, and 90% of Palestinians still support Hamas. https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-palestinians-opinion-poll-wartime-views-a0baade915619cd070b5393844bc4514
That doesn’t change that the majority of Gaza supports them. They are terrorists. They run the country. They were voted into power.
Where are your figures for "the majority of Gaza" supporting them? If you watch the video I linked, you'll see Hamas lied to get into power, and then stopped allowing democratic elections once they got into power. A point made in the video is that, if people are responsible for who they vote for, then every US citizen who's voted is now responsible for the war crimes committed by the US government. Food for thought.
There’s a difference between voting for a politician from one of America’s 2 major political parties vs voting for a literal terrorist organization. And the fact that you’re trying to justify war crimes at all with a whataboutism is fucking horrendous.
hamas creates a serious danger for Israel and as the Israelis themselves said, the lives of their own citizens are more valuable to them, so there are two sides of the coin, or the death of Israeli civilians or Palestinian civilians.
Mfw the subreddit's image had the Ukraine flag for months, which is very political:
What happened here?
Your argument VERSUS a single spelling mistake
💀I thought this sub was about the hit indie game Undertale made by Toby Fox, not about politics, I can’t wait for the mods to change the sub icon to which ever country that is at war next.
In spite of this rule, the sub has done political things in the past. Might as well be consistent about it.
If the subreddit changes their pfps to support ukraine then least they can do is allow Palestine posts, Otherwise it is very hypocritical. Regardless I am glad the posts are back up, bringing attention to the Palestinian situation is very Important and In'sha'allah they will be free
"b-but this sub... And U-ukraine... 😭😭😭"
You, pushing your glasses up your nose: "Heh, I bet my opponents will have a salient point about the no politics rule not being enforced in similar circumstances. The fools!"
no, it's just that they only know how to repeat the same thing lol
I mean, are they bad arguments?
partly yes, they complain about an old sub avatar, if they complained about the posts by the mods about Ukraine, I would be agree.
Why would they say something other than the most compelling argument?
by that case the mods shouldn't have changed the subreddit pfp to the Ukrainian flag
Come on guys. Say it with me. FUCK POLITICS
I don’t really take a stand in stuff like this, but from what I’m seeing, I personally think that the Ukraine and Palestine issues are different. First, Ukraine already had established itself as a state, and Russia was trying to take the land back unfairly, I think it would be obvious whether who is the victim here. However, Israel v Palestine is WAY more complicated than Ukraine. To sum it up, both states are victims of a superimposed border that was made after WW1. Both states have killed people, (in Palestine’s case, HAMAS to be specific) and it makes it less obvious on which side to support. Once again, I don’t have an opinion on which side I support, but I just want to say that both scenarios are completely different cases. Why do I have to say this in the Undertale subreddit ;-;
So I can't talk about corrupt capitalism of store owners?
The projection is strong with you, young Padawan.
Tbh not the biggest fan of how they're handling this because while they meant for it to just be allowed to he mentioned people took it as a greenlight to only post about that but at the same time this also kinda applies to a shit ton of posts even aside from this, because if we're gonna count "Not supporting a genocide" as a political view and banning that also ban all mentions of characters being LGBT because "That's for interpretation and a political view" but it doesn't work that way and exceptions are made because common fucking sense exists
This isn't politics. Innocent people are getting slaughtered, this isn't a matter of opinions where there is no correct answer and its up for debate. Free Palestine.
Sure, but I don’t wanna see “Frisk supports Palestine” posts. Can’t just people express their support through other ways?