Both a necessary and interesting conversation, thanks for posting.
Everyone please stay respectful.
My 2 cents:
First, for what it is worth, I did remove that license plate photo when I saw the report on it.
Second, I am not necessarily against these sorts of posts but I am against anything that is directly identifying, that goes for other issues as well.
I have an issue with this statement, but do correct me if I am misreading it.
*"The other issue I have with this, is it is never done under the guise of spreading information or properly informing people of safety."*
I myself have written many posts in the aftermath of **very** preventable accidents or deaths, always tied with all kinds of resources for visitors. Examples: [One,](https://old.reddit.com/r/VisitingIceland/comments/17xnu14/dont_die_in_iceland/) [two.](https://www.reddit.com/r/VisitingIceland/comments/11qestn/last_summer_a_woman_and_her_husband_went_on_the/) These directly refer to reckless tourist behavior, but are also useful and full of information and good discussions. There are other long time contributors here who've also posted in such situations and the ensuing conversations have been useful and necessary.
The one thing that I cannot stand are the comments about "Darwinism" and similar. These are so cruel and rude. Last summer, a man died hiking to the eruption. The comment section was full of such comments. The man's family came to the thread a few weeks later and was very upset about it. It would be nice if people could just refrain from such commentary.
Here to read and consider all *respectful* input on this from everyone, this is a community after all.
Thank you for giving me an opportunity to clarify my statement! I appreciate the posts you linked to. In my opinion, those are more akin to sharing news and genuinely trying to educate others, and properly informing visitors of safety. Especially how it links to other news sources/articles. I feel the tone and intent is not one of humiliation.
I think there are productive ways to have these convos and these examples fit into that box. Obviously photos can be educational, and I don’t quite know how to articulate the nuance, but I feel I can tell the intent behind a post and I’m taking gripe more with posts that only serve to humiliate/judge/embarrass strangers.
I agree with the Darwinism comments, and that’s why I often have issues with the “humiliating/shame” posts, because I feel the conversations they often produce are not productive nor kind and often just an echo chamber.
I think another interesting piece to consider, is by its very nature, this sub is full of people who are interested in Iceland, who probably go out of their way to research Iceland, and are probably more likely to be mindful when visiting other places by doing their research on local customs/safety/alerts. Often times the people we are “shaming” are the very people who are NOT doing their research/joining travel forums/are not going out of their way to educate themselves or be mindful of the places they visit. Which is why sometimes these posts bother me, I think the subjects of these posts are often not the people these posts will even reach.
But again! These are just my opinions and I’ve been really appreciating reading through this discussion and hearing the various thoughts of our community members.
Edit: typos
The other thing I don't like about the shame posts is that I don't want to discourage people from asking questions here about safety (weather, driving, etc.) I know these posts are lazy, and they are legion, and many of them get removed. However, I feel like the shame posts can contribute to peoples' hesitancy to ask questions here because they don't want to get dog piled. This happens sometimes though I feel like it's gotten better over the past year or so.
The post earlier this week was a little too much but I left it, though I think in the future if someone has never posted here / isn't a regular contributor I will consider yanking it. These posts aren't common here, but I know I will use a sharper lens moving forward.
Thanks for your thoughts!
I have, on a few occasions, pointed out to tourists that they were in the wrong area, ignoring signs, about to land a drone on someones head etc. Each time I was met with abuse. Not a fun time at all.
As much as these posts feel very harsh, for some folk it might be the only way they learn that boundaries are there for safety and preservation reasons. It is not just to stop people falling off cliffs.
I do feel that showing faces etc, is not okay though. We should not be able to tell who they are.
>
> I do feel that showing faces etc, is not okay though. We should not be able to tell who they are.
Speaking now as a moderator I'd be 100% ok with expanding the concept of what counts as identifiable and making it subject to immediate removal. E.g. Require one to blur / crop / otherwise obscure faces altogether, even if they don't initially feel identifiable.
Does this apply only to people acting badly, or are we going to have to blur every tourist who is *not* us from *any* pictures we post? Because if it is non-uniformly applied it seems kind of odd to have this be the guideline about showing people in a public place. That is, someone who is *not* being an ass has just as much right to privacy as someone who *is*.
Extended thoughts - I feel that if the image is posted in a manner that could possibly incite some kind of harassment, faces / identifiable information should be obscured. A photo of someone letting their toddler run around on the waterline at Reynisfjara should have their identities obscured, for example.
Just kicking around ideas here, not making any rule on my own, this is for everyone to discuss and consider.
We already have "Do not post personal information of any kind. This includes but is not limited to names, telephone numbers, addresses and e-mail addresses." Of course there is discretion on this. Someone posting a business address is fine.
Personally, I am fine with it being context-dependent and at the discretion of the mods. I'm fine with posting or seeing identifiable pics of some doofus getting soaked and their camera ruined by a sneaker wave, but would not be fine if it was video of someone being dragged out to sea to drown (identifiable or not). Similarly, someone being stupid on a cliff edge is different than someone in the act of falling. We have good mods here and I have no problem with them making the call on pics.
It does matter, mostly because it is an egregious and disproportionate response to whatever the perceived offense is.
It is time we as a group of human beings acknowledge how often this shit goes wrong. How many of these dumbass "racist Karen" (or similar) incidents turn out to be the very opposite of what it appears in some 23 second clip? Far too often. "Citi Bike Karen" is a really good example of this.
Everyone (and I include myself here) really needs to remember to chill out and think hard about if something is an overstatement of harm. "Do I simply not like this? Or is this an actual harm that could be called out and corrected?" Again, I am not wholesale opposed to these kinds of posts but making people very identifiable is not cool and also not allowed.
I don't care what the offense is alleged to be. We are not identifying people here over an annoying but ultimately benign situation if it could lead to doxxing or harassment. Period! Discretion will always be applied here.
The sheer glee with with some people engage in these crowdsourced lynch mobs is fucking disgusting in my opinion and everyone knows at the end of the day it isn't about "accountability" for someone being "problematic" or whatever. No one actually cares if there is an apology or someone actually committed to "doing better." So let's not pretend it is.
>It does matter, mostly because it is an egregious and disproportionate response to whatever the perceived offense is.
Sharing a picture of a "tourist behaving badly" to a tiny tourism subreddit is hardly egregious or disproportionate.
I take your point on general online content, but this is so specific that I don't think it is all that applicable.
Will the gen pub be enraged to see a photo of a tourist outside of the walking paths in a national park, or a photo of someone standing close to the edge of something they shouldn't?
This isn't online pile-on territory.
To give a little context, the post that was the catalyst for *this* post [was pretty egregious.](https://old.reddit.com/r/VisitingIceland/comments/1bjsm57/fja%C3%B0r%C3%A1rglj%C3%BAfur_visit/) A user (one who has never contributed here before) followed some people around at a spot in Iceland and took photos of them and their car and posted it here. It wasn't necessary or useful in my opinion. It was purely rage bait, the worst kind of "content" and doesn't generally fit the vibe here. Also, it was weird - put your phone down and go enjoy your vacation.
I'm not opposed to these posts overall, other regular and valuable members here have posted these. Usually in a different context and actually demonstrate something dangerous that can be avoided. E.g. people tromping across the top of a cliff or waterfall. Often in these posts others ask "Wait, this doesn't *look* dangerous. What's going on here?" and then there is good discussion and lots of resources shared about whatever area is being shown.
The bottom line is no identifying information is allowed here to begin with, and I think that moving forward people are alright if this includes faces/license plates. Of course, discretion will be applied in how these are moderated.
The post wasn't exactly pile-on material, you're right. Though I do think that with faces and other very identifiable information it has the potential to spin out of control. And I'd prefer this doesn't become a space for that.
I’d be more inclined to ask that the good people get blurred. They deserve their privacy more than or at least as much as the idiots.
Spain, Hungary, Switzerland and other countries do not allow street photography to protect privacy. It’s true elsewhere as well.
I am of the opinion that someone who walks down to the water's edge at Reynisfjara after ignoring the big, multi-lingual sign with colored warning lights is both beyond being educated *and* also out of range of where they can hear me, since I am staying up where it is safe.
We have numerous accounts here of redditors saying something to people like this and being ignored or outright insulted for being concerned for the local environment, that person's safety, or both.
That does not leave too many options *other* than public shaming, though I am open to other options that would do the trick. See also [this](https://www.facebook.com/groups/256488918194559).
The reasons why I'm all for public shaming (besides that I did ask someone to stay behind the markers because of the fragility and necessity of the moss, and they swore at me) is for three reasons. One, is they are most certainly going where they shouldn't specifically for social media posting purposes. These aren't people keeping to themselves. They already plan to publicly post their photos from those dangerous areas in search of likes and recognition- so give it to them.
Two, their dangerous actions endanger *other people.* When they get themselves in trouble, volunteer rescue teams have to put their own lives in danger rescuing them.
Three, they are ruining it for all of us. It's possible we will end up losing access to places because of these idiots. Additionally, in many instances they are actually destroying the environment like the moss I mentioned.
As a side note, on pretty much every post shaming someone, some idiot writes "probably American." This is ridiculous. Americans most certainly don't have a monopoly on being awful tourists. But I have a few Icelandic friends and they all say the worst offenders are Asian. They actually jokingly refer to certain areas where people consistently endanger themselves by not being safe as Chinese Takeout.
I agree with all 3 of your points!
As an American, I very much appreciate your opinion of the “probably American” comments. When I went to Iceland, I was always reading signage, listening to guides about what to do or what not to do, and just did not do the things that I wasn’t supposed to do. So seeing those “probably American” comments sting a bit for me. (I do want to mention that I saw many people break rules while I was in Iceland. It seemed that some of those people were Americans, others were not.)
For the most part, people knowingly ignore signs and break rules meant to protect themselves and the places they visit. In almost every case, they do it because they don't care and just want that "ultimate selfie" or whatever photo sourvenier they have in mind. The number of people who "accidentally" break rules likely isn't zero but probably a very small percentage since it's unlikely they're that stupid that they strayed from a very clear path, ignored numerous signs, and hopped over a fence or barrier by accident. They're not naturally stupid, they're selfish.
Trying to educate these people is pointless. They already know, they simply don't care. Being a selfish, self-indulgent, entitled imbecile is not a cultural difference, it's just a negative trait people seem to carry around when they bumble into other countries.
I’m a tourist. I pointed out a few things to various other tourists who were breaking rules and they looked at me, ignored me, and turned away. It’s frustrating because I do my best to respect places that I visit, not only in the hopes of keeping things preserved, but because that’s what we should do - respect the land and the people who live here. So to see people not caring and making it so things won’t be the same for future visitors is upsetting.
This was me today. Stopped three times on a return trip from Hofn to the capital and every single time I admonished tourists with no joy. I even pretended to video them hoping this would have an effect 🤷🏻♂️
For sure say something to the person when you see someone doing something wrong, but these days in many places in the world you will get met with aggression if you do such a thing, so many people will be too fearful of the consequences of saying something.
It may rectify that particular situation if you say something, but does nothing about the next situation that will happen when you are not there to say anything.
So how do we avoid it happening in the first place? By educating people.
How do we educate people?
Posting examples of what NOT to do, in a place where it may reach a fair number of people who are researching before they visit, seems like a good place ... Somewhere like here...
It is not about naming & shaming or embarrassing a particular person/s, as the likelihood of that particular person seeing that particular post, especially before they leave the country so they don't do it again, is TINY.
It will however reach far more other people before they even arrive so they will know what is & isn't expected of them when they do get here.
IMHO there should be far more of those posts as it is important to reach & educate as many people as possible so it happens less in the first place.
Edit : though of corse adding thing like numberplates is just silly & obviously trying to embarrass, which is just petty minded, vindictive & pointless. Trying to educate people one at a time, after the fact & when they are unlikely to repeat anyway is just so small minded. Trying to educate the masses is much more worthwhile.
Agreed, but I’ve been seeing several posts where the OP would post images zoomed in to their faces just to public shame them. I don’t see what’s the point of that.
I’m going to have to respectfully disagree. I’m from Orlando, a tourist Mecca. Time and time again, tourists have disrespected our community, ignoring basic common sense, and have done some seriously dangerous and stupid things. I have no problem naming and shaming them and having their actions follow them home to serve as a lesson of what not to do.
I feel the same way about Iceland. It is a wonderful and dangerous place. It’s a country and culture unto itself and is worthy of respect. Part of that respect is the environment and safety culture around it that Icelanders have created over centuries of experience. And let’s be clear. We’re not talking about crossing a chained fence at Disney. Iceland can and will kill you if you don’t pay attention. There’s no reason these tourists shouldn’t serve as an object lesson as to how to behave around their environment and another country. I particularly find the tourists who do something stupid enough to get SAR involved.
These people should be named and shamed. As visitors and tourists we can always do better, but we should never do things to make it worse, no matter where we go.
When a particular drunk individual decided to corner a gator and wrestle it, yes, I indeed called him a “fucking idiot” and I “discouraged” from doing so. So did animal control.
People do stupid things and deserve to be called out on it as an example to serve to others. If that doesn’t meet to your satisfaction, tough.
I agree with your sentiment on the whole thing, I really do.
There’s just something that doesn’t sit right with me when someone says nothing, pulls out a phone and then takes to the safety of the internet to “shame” somebody
Living close to a tourist destination that’s actually very similar to Iceland I know all about chronic rule breaking. We have an Instagram page dedicated to it. Part of me likes the shaming but would like to see actual consequences from law enforcement. Let arrests and citations make the rounds on the socials and the crap would stop real quick.
On the other side of the coin there’s nothing worse than the keyboard tough guy culture. If you feel that strongly maybe address it in person ? The truth is you can’t really shame someone on a global platform like this. Nobody knows anyone.
I don’t know , take it or leave it. Follow the damn rules
You’re making a broad and incorrect assumption that because someone takes and posts a picture of bad behavior that they didn’t say anything. I can only speak for myself, but I posted a photo of two people who crossed the rope barriers at Seljalandsfoss, but that was a follow up to my conversation with them.
You’re also assuming they’re all tourists, in the case I mentioned above, they were locals. Their justification for crossing the ropes was “we’re from here”. The vast majority of the incidents will be tourists, but there are locals who behave as bad as tourists too.
I have video I never posted of an interaction I had with two people who crossed ropes to eat their lunch at Landmannalauger. I told them “I don’t think you’re supposed to be there, you’re past the rope.” They replied saying they walked along the “path” that was there, not mentioning that they walked right by the “no walking” sign.
I can only recall a small number of signs that were written in English without an accompanying image showing what not to do. Usually with a big X or crossed out circle. I don’t think it’s reasonable to explain away bad behavior due to signage ignorance.
You may not like it, but without more strict forms of punishment and enforcement by those with authority, public shaming is really the only recourse available to the average Iceland enthusiast.
Confrontation (education) can be done and should be done by those who are comfortable doing so, but it can’t be expected of everyone who sees bad behavior.
I tried to politely educate someone that drones were not allowed in a certain area and that a park service personnel was even on the trail.
What I got was yelled at, told to mind my own business, and had a drone flown right behind me for several minutes of my hike. It wasn't until I reached up to grab the drone that he finally backed off. This was back in 2017.
This last trip, we were near Dyrhólaey at the overlook below a section it is clearly chained off. We were taking sunset photos in front of the chain, which apparently wasn't good enough for this other girl, so she hopped the chain to get closer to the waves. I said something along the lines of you are ruining everyone's photos you shouldn't be over there, and she just laughed at me. Maybe only 6 people there too, so it wasn't like she couldn't get a nice photo. Her friend at least had the decency to be embarrassed and wouldn't come with her. She eventually climbed over the rocks out of sight down to the water. Just stupid behavior and she knew she shouldn't be over there too.
I think most people know exactly what they are doing is wrong. If they didn't, they wouldn't react with such hostility.
My 2 cents. The vast majority of the people who break the rules are knowingly doing it and don’t care or think they are invincible.
I’ll use myself as an example. Took a golden circle tour. Stopped to take a short hike. Tour guide said, stay on the trail.
Tour guide also told us about how many tourists get hurt or killed not listening or following rules.
So with that fresh in our minds my wife and I decided to walk up a frozen ice encrusted staircase. After getting to the top, we saw how treacherous getting down would be. I slid the whole way down. Luckily my arm and ego were only bruised.
Lesson learned.
As far as shaming tourists, it will not have much effect on stupidity among tourists.
Very simply, assholes will be assholes. The merely uninformed, on the other hand, learn from these posts pointing out what is wrong and/or unacceptable actions and behavior.
Honestly, Iceland being the unique place that it is, there should just be a required reading booth at the airport. Huge warning signs of "don't exit airport until you read this pamphlet!" and then a very basic "most places can kill you and don't touch anything" kind of explanation of why you must stay on trails/not take stuff.
It might be overall cheaper/easier. I don't think most locals will enjoy having the entire country plastered with clear, obvious signage and trail markers. Just because the economy is widely supported by tourism doesn't mean individuals enjoy it.
But then, most tourists have no idea just *how* special Iceland is in terms of the nuanced ways to either die from or fuck up the landscape.
I've only ever been there for family related reasons (not my own) and would never have guessed that nature is like that if they hadn't told me, and haven't really seen the sights. Many people probably do some research, but most probably don't do nearly enough. And to the locals these are such obvious facts that it seems ridiculous to make anyone even more aware. Why would anyone do the bad things, you know?
Completely agree. That being said our tour guide encouraged us to take home rocks, he said there was enough for everyone and he's been guiding for over ten years. I took one very small rock only after he said that on day like 5 of our trip. Some of my group mates were taking lots of rocks, and/or big rocks from the first day and that made me uncomfortable at first because I hike a lot so I was operating under hiking etiquette but then our guide said he wasn't worried about it🤷♀️
I feel the personal details like license plate number and faces should be blurred in all the videos and photos.
But, they should definitely be shared and shamed. They serve as the BEST example of what NOT to do as a tourist. If only signs or texts could work as good as images or videos, a problem like this would not exist.
Its your opinion that it does nothing to solve issues. But I think, it works amazingly well for me and my friends visiting Iceland. We see all the posts and make informed decisions thanks to those posts.
For example, I'm also glad someone shared the moss post, because we literally had NO idea that its bad to step on it. I also agree that personal info should be blurred.
As a future visitor, I'm very much deterred from doing those things. There are things that I didn't know I'm not supposed to do.
Embarrass and shame posts are effective in raising awareness and deterring people from doing ignorant things, unintentionally or intentionally.
We have rip tide where I'm at. We don't have "embarrass" or "shame" posts because the person(s) usually drowned.
OP, have you been to Iceland? I mean that genuinely and with reason: I’ve been a few times, and I’m no stranger to traveling, hitting up tourist traps, etc - and I can’t think of anywhere that’s as well marked and blatant about where is safe to be.
Every group tour I went on - tour guide warned what to do / what not to do. Every major destination was SUPER well marked with where is safe (whether for humans, animals, flora) and where isn’t. Signs. Ropes. Etc.
If someone visiting ignores all of that, what’s to say they’re going to listen to some rando tell them the same thing? A video / photo on Reddit of ‘hey this really does happen’ might be more helpful than harmful.
I’m not suggesting showing anything super identifiable or poking fun at someone who asks why the northern lights weren’t visible when the website clearly said they would be. But when it comes to safety and personal responsibility, idk. I think it’s fine.
Honestly, I appreciate the posts. I don't participate in the shaming but I am a voyer and they serve as reminders to keep myself in check during my own upcoming trip to Iceland. Yes, there are signs and warnings posted but humans make mistakes, and it's easier to lose perspective when you're swept up in the beauty or distracted taking pictures. People walk right off cliffs taking selfies. A healthy dose of fear is necessary, at least for me.
Both a necessary and interesting conversation, thanks for posting. Everyone please stay respectful. My 2 cents: First, for what it is worth, I did remove that license plate photo when I saw the report on it. Second, I am not necessarily against these sorts of posts but I am against anything that is directly identifying, that goes for other issues as well. I have an issue with this statement, but do correct me if I am misreading it. *"The other issue I have with this, is it is never done under the guise of spreading information or properly informing people of safety."* I myself have written many posts in the aftermath of **very** preventable accidents or deaths, always tied with all kinds of resources for visitors. Examples: [One,](https://old.reddit.com/r/VisitingIceland/comments/17xnu14/dont_die_in_iceland/) [two.](https://www.reddit.com/r/VisitingIceland/comments/11qestn/last_summer_a_woman_and_her_husband_went_on_the/) These directly refer to reckless tourist behavior, but are also useful and full of information and good discussions. There are other long time contributors here who've also posted in such situations and the ensuing conversations have been useful and necessary. The one thing that I cannot stand are the comments about "Darwinism" and similar. These are so cruel and rude. Last summer, a man died hiking to the eruption. The comment section was full of such comments. The man's family came to the thread a few weeks later and was very upset about it. It would be nice if people could just refrain from such commentary. Here to read and consider all *respectful* input on this from everyone, this is a community after all.
Thank you for taking care of an incredible subreddit.
You´re welcome! Thanks to everyone who contributes to the vibes here!
Thank you for giving me an opportunity to clarify my statement! I appreciate the posts you linked to. In my opinion, those are more akin to sharing news and genuinely trying to educate others, and properly informing visitors of safety. Especially how it links to other news sources/articles. I feel the tone and intent is not one of humiliation. I think there are productive ways to have these convos and these examples fit into that box. Obviously photos can be educational, and I don’t quite know how to articulate the nuance, but I feel I can tell the intent behind a post and I’m taking gripe more with posts that only serve to humiliate/judge/embarrass strangers. I agree with the Darwinism comments, and that’s why I often have issues with the “humiliating/shame” posts, because I feel the conversations they often produce are not productive nor kind and often just an echo chamber. I think another interesting piece to consider, is by its very nature, this sub is full of people who are interested in Iceland, who probably go out of their way to research Iceland, and are probably more likely to be mindful when visiting other places by doing their research on local customs/safety/alerts. Often times the people we are “shaming” are the very people who are NOT doing their research/joining travel forums/are not going out of their way to educate themselves or be mindful of the places they visit. Which is why sometimes these posts bother me, I think the subjects of these posts are often not the people these posts will even reach. But again! These are just my opinions and I’ve been really appreciating reading through this discussion and hearing the various thoughts of our community members. Edit: typos
The other thing I don't like about the shame posts is that I don't want to discourage people from asking questions here about safety (weather, driving, etc.) I know these posts are lazy, and they are legion, and many of them get removed. However, I feel like the shame posts can contribute to peoples' hesitancy to ask questions here because they don't want to get dog piled. This happens sometimes though I feel like it's gotten better over the past year or so. The post earlier this week was a little too much but I left it, though I think in the future if someone has never posted here / isn't a regular contributor I will consider yanking it. These posts aren't common here, but I know I will use a sharper lens moving forward. Thanks for your thoughts!
Thanks for your help facilitating this discussion! I appreciated hearing your view points.
I have, on a few occasions, pointed out to tourists that they were in the wrong area, ignoring signs, about to land a drone on someones head etc. Each time I was met with abuse. Not a fun time at all. As much as these posts feel very harsh, for some folk it might be the only way they learn that boundaries are there for safety and preservation reasons. It is not just to stop people falling off cliffs. I do feel that showing faces etc, is not okay though. We should not be able to tell who they are.
> > I do feel that showing faces etc, is not okay though. We should not be able to tell who they are. Speaking now as a moderator I'd be 100% ok with expanding the concept of what counts as identifiable and making it subject to immediate removal. E.g. Require one to blur / crop / otherwise obscure faces altogether, even if they don't initially feel identifiable.
Does this apply only to people acting badly, or are we going to have to blur every tourist who is *not* us from *any* pictures we post? Because if it is non-uniformly applied it seems kind of odd to have this be the guideline about showing people in a public place. That is, someone who is *not* being an ass has just as much right to privacy as someone who *is*.
Extended thoughts - I feel that if the image is posted in a manner that could possibly incite some kind of harassment, faces / identifiable information should be obscured. A photo of someone letting their toddler run around on the waterline at Reynisfjara should have their identities obscured, for example. Just kicking around ideas here, not making any rule on my own, this is for everyone to discuss and consider. We already have "Do not post personal information of any kind. This includes but is not limited to names, telephone numbers, addresses and e-mail addresses." Of course there is discretion on this. Someone posting a business address is fine.
Personally, I am fine with it being context-dependent and at the discretion of the mods. I'm fine with posting or seeing identifiable pics of some doofus getting soaked and their camera ruined by a sneaker wave, but would not be fine if it was video of someone being dragged out to sea to drown (identifiable or not). Similarly, someone being stupid on a cliff edge is different than someone in the act of falling. We have good mods here and I have no problem with them making the call on pics.
This is a route I would really respect.
And why does it matter if the idiot is exposed? If you don’t wanna get harassed don’t be an idiot.
It does matter, mostly because it is an egregious and disproportionate response to whatever the perceived offense is. It is time we as a group of human beings acknowledge how often this shit goes wrong. How many of these dumbass "racist Karen" (or similar) incidents turn out to be the very opposite of what it appears in some 23 second clip? Far too often. "Citi Bike Karen" is a really good example of this. Everyone (and I include myself here) really needs to remember to chill out and think hard about if something is an overstatement of harm. "Do I simply not like this? Or is this an actual harm that could be called out and corrected?" Again, I am not wholesale opposed to these kinds of posts but making people very identifiable is not cool and also not allowed. I don't care what the offense is alleged to be. We are not identifying people here over an annoying but ultimately benign situation if it could lead to doxxing or harassment. Period! Discretion will always be applied here. The sheer glee with with some people engage in these crowdsourced lynch mobs is fucking disgusting in my opinion and everyone knows at the end of the day it isn't about "accountability" for someone being "problematic" or whatever. No one actually cares if there is an apology or someone actually committed to "doing better." So let's not pretend it is.
Thank you! I think you really articulated what I was trying to say much more succinctly than my rambling post!
>It does matter, mostly because it is an egregious and disproportionate response to whatever the perceived offense is. Sharing a picture of a "tourist behaving badly" to a tiny tourism subreddit is hardly egregious or disproportionate. I take your point on general online content, but this is so specific that I don't think it is all that applicable. Will the gen pub be enraged to see a photo of a tourist outside of the walking paths in a national park, or a photo of someone standing close to the edge of something they shouldn't? This isn't online pile-on territory.
To give a little context, the post that was the catalyst for *this* post [was pretty egregious.](https://old.reddit.com/r/VisitingIceland/comments/1bjsm57/fja%C3%B0r%C3%A1rglj%C3%BAfur_visit/) A user (one who has never contributed here before) followed some people around at a spot in Iceland and took photos of them and their car and posted it here. It wasn't necessary or useful in my opinion. It was purely rage bait, the worst kind of "content" and doesn't generally fit the vibe here. Also, it was weird - put your phone down and go enjoy your vacation. I'm not opposed to these posts overall, other regular and valuable members here have posted these. Usually in a different context and actually demonstrate something dangerous that can be avoided. E.g. people tromping across the top of a cliff or waterfall. Often in these posts others ask "Wait, this doesn't *look* dangerous. What's going on here?" and then there is good discussion and lots of resources shared about whatever area is being shown. The bottom line is no identifying information is allowed here to begin with, and I think that moving forward people are alright if this includes faces/license plates. Of course, discretion will be applied in how these are moderated. The post wasn't exactly pile-on material, you're right. Though I do think that with faces and other very identifiable information it has the potential to spin out of control. And I'd prefer this doesn't become a space for that.
I’d be more inclined to ask that the good people get blurred. They deserve their privacy more than or at least as much as the idiots. Spain, Hungary, Switzerland and other countries do not allow street photography to protect privacy. It’s true elsewhere as well.
>Spain, Hungary, Switzerland Is this r/visitingspainhungaryswitzerland ?
I am of the opinion that someone who walks down to the water's edge at Reynisfjara after ignoring the big, multi-lingual sign with colored warning lights is both beyond being educated *and* also out of range of where they can hear me, since I am staying up where it is safe. We have numerous accounts here of redditors saying something to people like this and being ignored or outright insulted for being concerned for the local environment, that person's safety, or both. That does not leave too many options *other* than public shaming, though I am open to other options that would do the trick. See also [this](https://www.facebook.com/groups/256488918194559).
The reasons why I'm all for public shaming (besides that I did ask someone to stay behind the markers because of the fragility and necessity of the moss, and they swore at me) is for three reasons. One, is they are most certainly going where they shouldn't specifically for social media posting purposes. These aren't people keeping to themselves. They already plan to publicly post their photos from those dangerous areas in search of likes and recognition- so give it to them. Two, their dangerous actions endanger *other people.* When they get themselves in trouble, volunteer rescue teams have to put their own lives in danger rescuing them. Three, they are ruining it for all of us. It's possible we will end up losing access to places because of these idiots. Additionally, in many instances they are actually destroying the environment like the moss I mentioned. As a side note, on pretty much every post shaming someone, some idiot writes "probably American." This is ridiculous. Americans most certainly don't have a monopoly on being awful tourists. But I have a few Icelandic friends and they all say the worst offenders are Asian. They actually jokingly refer to certain areas where people consistently endanger themselves by not being safe as Chinese Takeout.
I agree with all 3 of your points! As an American, I very much appreciate your opinion of the “probably American” comments. When I went to Iceland, I was always reading signage, listening to guides about what to do or what not to do, and just did not do the things that I wasn’t supposed to do. So seeing those “probably American” comments sting a bit for me. (I do want to mention that I saw many people break rules while I was in Iceland. It seemed that some of those people were Americans, others were not.)
Thanks!
For the most part, people knowingly ignore signs and break rules meant to protect themselves and the places they visit. In almost every case, they do it because they don't care and just want that "ultimate selfie" or whatever photo sourvenier they have in mind. The number of people who "accidentally" break rules likely isn't zero but probably a very small percentage since it's unlikely they're that stupid that they strayed from a very clear path, ignored numerous signs, and hopped over a fence or barrier by accident. They're not naturally stupid, they're selfish. Trying to educate these people is pointless. They already know, they simply don't care. Being a selfish, self-indulgent, entitled imbecile is not a cultural difference, it's just a negative trait people seem to carry around when they bumble into other countries.
I’m a tourist. I pointed out a few things to various other tourists who were breaking rules and they looked at me, ignored me, and turned away. It’s frustrating because I do my best to respect places that I visit, not only in the hopes of keeping things preserved, but because that’s what we should do - respect the land and the people who live here. So to see people not caring and making it so things won’t be the same for future visitors is upsetting.
This was me today. Stopped three times on a return trip from Hofn to the capital and every single time I admonished tourists with no joy. I even pretended to video them hoping this would have an effect 🤷🏻♂️
For sure say something to the person when you see someone doing something wrong, but these days in many places in the world you will get met with aggression if you do such a thing, so many people will be too fearful of the consequences of saying something. It may rectify that particular situation if you say something, but does nothing about the next situation that will happen when you are not there to say anything. So how do we avoid it happening in the first place? By educating people. How do we educate people? Posting examples of what NOT to do, in a place where it may reach a fair number of people who are researching before they visit, seems like a good place ... Somewhere like here... It is not about naming & shaming or embarrassing a particular person/s, as the likelihood of that particular person seeing that particular post, especially before they leave the country so they don't do it again, is TINY. It will however reach far more other people before they even arrive so they will know what is & isn't expected of them when they do get here. IMHO there should be far more of those posts as it is important to reach & educate as many people as possible so it happens less in the first place. Edit : though of corse adding thing like numberplates is just silly & obviously trying to embarrass, which is just petty minded, vindictive & pointless. Trying to educate people one at a time, after the fact & when they are unlikely to repeat anyway is just so small minded. Trying to educate the masses is much more worthwhile.
Agreed, but I’ve been seeing several posts where the OP would post images zoomed in to their faces just to public shame them. I don’t see what’s the point of that.
That’s what internet cowards do…
I’m going to have to respectfully disagree. I’m from Orlando, a tourist Mecca. Time and time again, tourists have disrespected our community, ignoring basic common sense, and have done some seriously dangerous and stupid things. I have no problem naming and shaming them and having their actions follow them home to serve as a lesson of what not to do. I feel the same way about Iceland. It is a wonderful and dangerous place. It’s a country and culture unto itself and is worthy of respect. Part of that respect is the environment and safety culture around it that Icelanders have created over centuries of experience. And let’s be clear. We’re not talking about crossing a chained fence at Disney. Iceland can and will kill you if you don’t pay attention. There’s no reason these tourists shouldn’t serve as an object lesson as to how to behave around their environment and another country. I particularly find the tourists who do something stupid enough to get SAR involved. These people should be named and shamed. As visitors and tourists we can always do better, but we should never do things to make it worse, no matter where we go.
Have you ever tried naming and shaming in person ? Or is that something best left for behind a keyboard?
When a particular drunk individual decided to corner a gator and wrestle it, yes, I indeed called him a “fucking idiot” and I “discouraged” from doing so. So did animal control. People do stupid things and deserve to be called out on it as an example to serve to others. If that doesn’t meet to your satisfaction, tough.
I agree with your sentiment on the whole thing, I really do. There’s just something that doesn’t sit right with me when someone says nothing, pulls out a phone and then takes to the safety of the internet to “shame” somebody
I disagree, I think it serves to raise awareness to some extent.
Living close to a tourist destination that’s actually very similar to Iceland I know all about chronic rule breaking. We have an Instagram page dedicated to it. Part of me likes the shaming but would like to see actual consequences from law enforcement. Let arrests and citations make the rounds on the socials and the crap would stop real quick. On the other side of the coin there’s nothing worse than the keyboard tough guy culture. If you feel that strongly maybe address it in person ? The truth is you can’t really shame someone on a global platform like this. Nobody knows anyone. I don’t know , take it or leave it. Follow the damn rules
OP was in the pic
You’re making a broad and incorrect assumption that because someone takes and posts a picture of bad behavior that they didn’t say anything. I can only speak for myself, but I posted a photo of two people who crossed the rope barriers at Seljalandsfoss, but that was a follow up to my conversation with them. You’re also assuming they’re all tourists, in the case I mentioned above, they were locals. Their justification for crossing the ropes was “we’re from here”. The vast majority of the incidents will be tourists, but there are locals who behave as bad as tourists too. I have video I never posted of an interaction I had with two people who crossed ropes to eat their lunch at Landmannalauger. I told them “I don’t think you’re supposed to be there, you’re past the rope.” They replied saying they walked along the “path” that was there, not mentioning that they walked right by the “no walking” sign. I can only recall a small number of signs that were written in English without an accompanying image showing what not to do. Usually with a big X or crossed out circle. I don’t think it’s reasonable to explain away bad behavior due to signage ignorance. You may not like it, but without more strict forms of punishment and enforcement by those with authority, public shaming is really the only recourse available to the average Iceland enthusiast. Confrontation (education) can be done and should be done by those who are comfortable doing so, but it can’t be expected of everyone who sees bad behavior.
I tried to politely educate someone that drones were not allowed in a certain area and that a park service personnel was even on the trail. What I got was yelled at, told to mind my own business, and had a drone flown right behind me for several minutes of my hike. It wasn't until I reached up to grab the drone that he finally backed off. This was back in 2017. This last trip, we were near Dyrhólaey at the overlook below a section it is clearly chained off. We were taking sunset photos in front of the chain, which apparently wasn't good enough for this other girl, so she hopped the chain to get closer to the waves. I said something along the lines of you are ruining everyone's photos you shouldn't be over there, and she just laughed at me. Maybe only 6 people there too, so it wasn't like she couldn't get a nice photo. Her friend at least had the decency to be embarrassed and wouldn't come with her. She eventually climbed over the rocks out of sight down to the water. Just stupid behavior and she knew she shouldn't be over there too. I think most people know exactly what they are doing is wrong. If they didn't, they wouldn't react with such hostility.
My 2 cents. The vast majority of the people who break the rules are knowingly doing it and don’t care or think they are invincible. I’ll use myself as an example. Took a golden circle tour. Stopped to take a short hike. Tour guide said, stay on the trail. Tour guide also told us about how many tourists get hurt or killed not listening or following rules. So with that fresh in our minds my wife and I decided to walk up a frozen ice encrusted staircase. After getting to the top, we saw how treacherous getting down would be. I slid the whole way down. Luckily my arm and ego were only bruised. Lesson learned. As far as shaming tourists, it will not have much effect on stupidity among tourists.
Very simply, assholes will be assholes. The merely uninformed, on the other hand, learn from these posts pointing out what is wrong and/or unacceptable actions and behavior.
Honestly, Iceland being the unique place that it is, there should just be a required reading booth at the airport. Huge warning signs of "don't exit airport until you read this pamphlet!" and then a very basic "most places can kill you and don't touch anything" kind of explanation of why you must stay on trails/not take stuff. It might be overall cheaper/easier. I don't think most locals will enjoy having the entire country plastered with clear, obvious signage and trail markers. Just because the economy is widely supported by tourism doesn't mean individuals enjoy it. But then, most tourists have no idea just *how* special Iceland is in terms of the nuanced ways to either die from or fuck up the landscape. I've only ever been there for family related reasons (not my own) and would never have guessed that nature is like that if they hadn't told me, and haven't really seen the sights. Many people probably do some research, but most probably don't do nearly enough. And to the locals these are such obvious facts that it seems ridiculous to make anyone even more aware. Why would anyone do the bad things, you know?
Completely agree. That being said our tour guide encouraged us to take home rocks, he said there was enough for everyone and he's been guiding for over ten years. I took one very small rock only after he said that on day like 5 of our trip. Some of my group mates were taking lots of rocks, and/or big rocks from the first day and that made me uncomfortable at first because I hike a lot so I was operating under hiking etiquette but then our guide said he wasn't worried about it🤷♀️
I feel the personal details like license plate number and faces should be blurred in all the videos and photos. But, they should definitely be shared and shamed. They serve as the BEST example of what NOT to do as a tourist. If only signs or texts could work as good as images or videos, a problem like this would not exist. Its your opinion that it does nothing to solve issues. But I think, it works amazingly well for me and my friends visiting Iceland. We see all the posts and make informed decisions thanks to those posts. For example, I'm also glad someone shared the moss post, because we literally had NO idea that its bad to step on it. I also agree that personal info should be blurred.
As a future visitor, I'm very much deterred from doing those things. There are things that I didn't know I'm not supposed to do. Embarrass and shame posts are effective in raising awareness and deterring people from doing ignorant things, unintentionally or intentionally. We have rip tide where I'm at. We don't have "embarrass" or "shame" posts because the person(s) usually drowned.
OP, have you been to Iceland? I mean that genuinely and with reason: I’ve been a few times, and I’m no stranger to traveling, hitting up tourist traps, etc - and I can’t think of anywhere that’s as well marked and blatant about where is safe to be. Every group tour I went on - tour guide warned what to do / what not to do. Every major destination was SUPER well marked with where is safe (whether for humans, animals, flora) and where isn’t. Signs. Ropes. Etc. If someone visiting ignores all of that, what’s to say they’re going to listen to some rando tell them the same thing? A video / photo on Reddit of ‘hey this really does happen’ might be more helpful than harmful. I’m not suggesting showing anything super identifiable or poking fun at someone who asks why the northern lights weren’t visible when the website clearly said they would be. But when it comes to safety and personal responsibility, idk. I think it’s fine.
I disagree. I think it is because I am a bit older? I grew up watching cops on prime time TV. And the jerry springer show.
Honestly, I appreciate the posts. I don't participate in the shaming but I am a voyer and they serve as reminders to keep myself in check during my own upcoming trip to Iceland. Yes, there are signs and warnings posted but humans make mistakes, and it's easier to lose perspective when you're swept up in the beauty or distracted taking pictures. People walk right off cliffs taking selfies. A healthy dose of fear is necessary, at least for me.
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