At least for my legion, the Thousand Sons are far more interesting during the Heresy.
Their 40k version is defined by two events that occurred during/around the Horus Heresy. The Burning of Prospero destroyed most of the Legion and their loyalty to the Emperor, and the Rubric of Ahriman turned 90% of them into dust automata controlled by moustache-twirling wizards who are enthralled to Tzeentch.
Their 30k counterpart is waaay more interesting. At the start of the Horus Heresy: Prospero has been burned, other Imperial armies have betrayed and slaughtered scattered XVth Legion forces, the bulk of the legion is begrudgingly forced to fight on Horus' side whilst other factions (e.g. The 5th Fellowship) side with the Imperium. .
On top of that the Flesh Change has returned, and the legion has to deal with Magnus becoming increasingly less 'interested' in the legion's fate (leading to Ahriman doing his Rubric).
Tldr: 40k 2D depiction is founded upon events that happened during 30k. 30k delves into these issues and explores them in fine detail.
lol i just posted two months ago "[The degradation of quality in Thousand Sons lore from HH to m41 is an absolute travesty](https://www.reddit.com/r/40kLore/comments/1bcc397/the_degradation_of_quality_in_thousand_sons_lore/)"
This is by design. In 40K, marine lore is vague for atmosphere as well as encouragement for people to create their own chapter. It’s also, I’d say, so narrative events and the like can move lore along because it is the current unfolding setting. Marines are also only one faction of a single species amongst many species which requires that most space marine chapter play as a basic marine template.
30K in contrast is a historical setting that tells the civil war between the legions before they are broken down into more controllable chapters.
The whole Horus Heresy is about the Astartes when they were at their zenith. It is all the background lore to 40K. It parallels real life honestly. How interesting is any country in modern times, compared to certain points of history.
I think that is honestly the main factor.
Maybe it's also worth layering-on the fact the HH setting is *about the 18 legions*, whereas the 40k setting is.... about a number of factions and subfactions that it is very easy to lose track of, honestly. A large number.
Then there is the timespan of publication, too:
In terms of the books themselves, the pace of their publishing for HH has meant that fleshing out the legions happened in a relatively short time.
Contrast that with even *just* the Ultramarines in 40k, which have their stories stretched over a much longer time-frame, and partly have their identity burdened with "being the face" of space marines, not just their own identity.
This is doubly true for traitors, whose representation in 40k is scattered and individual legions don't get much more than an Omnibus if that, basically.
Exactly. And by the time a new series about “Chapter X” comes out, the old one(s), if there were any are probably being partially retconned if not ignored just because of time frame. Contrast that with HH, like you say, they’ve had a goal in sight with clear markers along the way to flesh out a specific era through the stories of the legions.
The legions are also much more multi-dimensional than 40K grim dark near automatons hunting artifacts and purging xenos. In 40K they serve more as a stormtrooper analogy than heroes and villains with character arcs.
I realize there are really great 40K novels where this is not true, but I’m speaking generally about the setting.
Honestly it's better that way, the 40k imperium is a failed state propelled by madness and spite. For all its faults the 30k Imperium actually existed for more than its own sake.
I think sometimes people forget that 40k is a game with a setting wrapped around it to give it mystique and context, not a story that they made a game about.
As you said, 30k gave the writers much more freedom to build out the story for the players involved. Also there are an insane amount of books that make up the horus heresy story so things are bound to be more detailed just based on volume alone
I feel like they went wild with 30k lore, because they could. 40k is structured so that everything is vague, and built upon history— so much so, that when it cane time to actually make that history, they were able to do whatever they wanted. Take my favorite, the Iron Hands as an example— in 40k, it’s a bunch of cyborg dudes with not much else going on. In 30k, there’s the whole feeling of a large family based on Scottish clans, the use of technology to improve without perfecting, CYBORG ZOMBIES, and a drive to be the best they can manage. They really seized the opportunity to give more character to the legions as a whole.
Because it's obvious - ten thousand years is not a joke, and they were a whole legion to conquer the galaxy, rather than the gatherings of entirely independent chapters. Although the whole body was not moves together and those legions are scattered through the galaxy by each company to chapter, but they do have the connections and belongings to their legion, also their formation was based on full scale war rather than specialized paratrooper/marine of 40k space marines.
Not to mention that the era when those legions are founded, changed after they meet their father, and the scar left by the heresy, surely cause great impact on those. Such as poor orphans of Ferrus who were gone mad so far and obsessed with power, suggests the grave wound they have suffered ever since. But it can't be helped, for they lost everything and what is left is nothing but the vengence. Meanwhile, although obsessed with perfection, but once were noble sons of Fulgrim become nothing but the group of madman and indulge in debauchery at the dawn of heresy, is also a tragedy.
Well, personally it was a shock that the XVIIth were founded to remove every single religious belief on galaxy. Such a fanatics of chaos gods and were worshiped the emperor as a god before heresy, were actually started as the iconoclasts, was really ironical.
40k has so many different chapters and armies competing for attention. There's still quite a lot, but for many the majority of their info is from a book, a white dwarf index astartes article and a paragraph in a codex.
Compared to the 70-odd books in the heresy (including the primarchs & siege of terra books), and the old black books by FW, focused on just the 18 legions. It's allowed them to be far more fleshed out, especially with characters being followed and growing/changing throughout the series.
As a Raven Guard fan first, and foremost, 30K Ravens felt human. Most of the astartes, and even crew we meet during novels were former slaves, and rebel fighters who fought alongside Corax to liberate their homeworld. In a sense, they were like freedom fighters who were capable of rallying local populations to fight with them for compliance. Speaking to their abilities as a legion based on stealth...it felt like it made a lot more sense of the Great Crusade, and during the Heresy as a small legion that prioritized hit, and run, intelligence, and sabotage, objectives that don't seem so necessary with the threats introduced in 40k. I wish they could have more of a presence in 40k.
Yeah unfortunately, it seems the purpose a lot of legions were made for are not as common as in the great crusade/heresy. Honestly the Raven Guard are not put in positions in the lore atm to show their stuff. A lot more of that attention is honestly given to the Raptors which is really unfortunate. Which to me isn’t them being obsolete in 40k but just poor writing or lack there of.
I don't think they are entirely obsolete, but writing for them would take more effort than just throwing them headfirst into a battle. There was a short story I remember reading about some information the chapter master didn't want to fall into the hands of in inquisition, lest it would put a brother chapter's records into question. A squad is sent to intercept a train, where they are ambushed by a demonic entity. Really interesting story that ends on a brutal cliffhanger that hasn't been expanded upon. The legion operating in the shadows is so entertaining, but it limits them to the stories they partake in. Hunt of Voldorius has the Raven Guard, and White Scars teaming up, but I have yet to read it.
Yeah, I would agree with that. I'm a big 30k Dark Angels fan but didn't care for the 40k chapter until the lion and 30k marines started showing up.
I think it's probably that 30k was so vague in the beginning they were able to do more interesting things full send, while 40k always had to stick somewhat to previous lore only making small changes here and there.
There are three exceptions as far as I’m concerned.
Alpha Legion - the warbands that are loyal, fully chaos aligned, somewhere in the middle but still are Alpha Legion. There was a snippet in one of the Arks of Omens about them basically running a deathwatch facility.
Thousand sons - they really came into themselves post heresy IMO. Avoiding cartoonish evil Ahriman torturing Eldar for kicks - I think they become more interesting after.
Death Guard - in the HH they come across as dependable but kinda just background (excluding Typhus). Post heresy you have them keeping pet nurglings, obsessively counting and raising zombie armies. Vorx is one of my favourite characters in current lore
I think it's just because 30k was a clean slate to try to develop a different take on the classic chapters, when those same chapters in 40k sort of developed as a result of a combination of business decisions and creative choices (some that stayed and some that ended up being dead ends), resulting in sometimes strange lore. 30k was an opportunity to look at what was there for each of them and try to build a cohesive prequel/origin story, and also just do something deliberately different in order to make sure that the eras feel distinct from each other. 30k's lore couldn't be the way it is without having 40k's to build off of, but it benefits a lot from that foundation. When you are able to look at what doesn't work (and what does), you can create something that works better.
I think this comes form several things.
Chaos legions didn't had a propper depiction and special rules/units in 40k for a long time. With the 3rd edition codex the last time for real, until recently.
While loyal marines got all standardized with the codex astartes and lost much of their flavor, with the exception of some.
Just, having legion unique units, weapons, upgrade kits, RoW's does so much to make them feel more unique, to 40k.
Lorewise it's the same. The legions have more options to (non primaris 40k) marines, in general types of warfare. Artillery, breachers, super heavy tanks, jetbikes....
When all this stuff was first released when heresy started out, in the time of 40ks 6th edition, it felt like getting what we had missed out on for years.
And the different armor MK's just allow to even deepen such themes.
30k allows through all of these elements more individual character of forces, factions and armies.
I honestly think 40k would be better if marines always had most of the heresy options in their arsenal (maybe except jetbikes and javelin landspeeder), while still being limited to 1000 in numbers as a loyal chapter. (+never doing primaris).
The Horus heresy book series give a lot of characters, inspiration and Alan Bligh’s Black Books. They just dive into much more depth than *most* of what we get in 40k.
Certainly some factions have a lot going for them in 40k eg. Ultramarines, Death guard, Blood Angels.
There’s a variety for factors.
For one, there’s *way* more factions in 40k so the lore each faction gets is diluted. When heresy has just a couple dozen it becomes a lot easier to give them more in-depth lore, and only 18 of those really need to be given actual depth.
Another factor is the heresy is, in a way, a ‘historical’ event for a ‘historical’ wargame. As a result, you need to have a lot more in depth lore for you to enable… well, the ‘historic’ battles and factions to be accurately represented. Look at it like a Napoleonic or WW2 wargame - they’re meant to be narrative and historically accurate using, digging into the history of the events to make sure everything is as accurate as can be - and heresy is in a way that but in the far future.
The sons of Horus are infinitely cooler than the black legion. They had a proper niche, Abaddon wasn’t annoying as fuck, and their aesthetic was a lot more unique than just generic chaos.
Because they stopped writing lore for factions around 4th Edition and have just continuously recycled and paraphrased the same thing for six editions. Heresy is fresh, and always has new things being added. Add onto that a Heresy Legion is everything a space marine should be, massive fleets, hundreds of thousands of legionaries to build your own “dudes” from, Primarchs, and the Imperium at the strongest it has ever been it all just feels better than 40K where half the galaxy cants leave their solar system, chapters are a just a thousand guys, ships are weak by design, and the aliens just aren’t compelling anymore.
In many case yes, especially the heritic legion has depth they simple lack in 40k. With probably world eaters being the most extreme example.
However I feel for blood angels it is the opposite.
I feel the fiction (the FW Heresy Books are mostly fine) for Night Lords is just really bad. Sevatar gets siloed, Curze gets siloed. The only Night Lords character with significant screen time after that is Skraivok, who basically reads as Guy Haley's* tempter tantrum about the Night Lords existing. I think the Traitors generally get short shrift, but the Night Lords get taken out by the woodshed.
40k's better for Night Lords because they're at least free of the black hole of "Sigismund or the Lion or whoever needs to be stroked off again". Four great novels is better than a lot of factions get.
*I've warmed up to Haley, but Pharos is trash.
I type a bad analogy let me try again:
To put another way, 30k has 18 legions to write about over let’s say 100 books, each one gets 5 books. In 40k you have an unknown amount more chapters plus xenos scum. So over 100 books, only one or two can be about each chapter and maybe represent the founding legion.
Edit: in a way I feel like that about most Legions with absentee fathers. They almost just get boiled down to their most basic but the primarch adds their complicated personality to the dynamic of the legion overall making them more interesting.
At least for my legion, the Thousand Sons are far more interesting during the Heresy. Their 40k version is defined by two events that occurred during/around the Horus Heresy. The Burning of Prospero destroyed most of the Legion and their loyalty to the Emperor, and the Rubric of Ahriman turned 90% of them into dust automata controlled by moustache-twirling wizards who are enthralled to Tzeentch. Their 30k counterpart is waaay more interesting. At the start of the Horus Heresy: Prospero has been burned, other Imperial armies have betrayed and slaughtered scattered XVth Legion forces, the bulk of the legion is begrudgingly forced to fight on Horus' side whilst other factions (e.g. The 5th Fellowship) side with the Imperium. . On top of that the Flesh Change has returned, and the legion has to deal with Magnus becoming increasingly less 'interested' in the legion's fate (leading to Ahriman doing his Rubric). Tldr: 40k 2D depiction is founded upon events that happened during 30k. 30k delves into these issues and explores them in fine detail.
lol i just posted two months ago "[The degradation of quality in Thousand Sons lore from HH to m41 is an absolute travesty](https://www.reddit.com/r/40kLore/comments/1bcc397/the_degradation_of_quality_in_thousand_sons_lore/)"
Damn, I'd even upvoted it when you posted it but had forgotten about it XD
I read that post and you're 500% right
This is by design. In 40K, marine lore is vague for atmosphere as well as encouragement for people to create their own chapter. It’s also, I’d say, so narrative events and the like can move lore along because it is the current unfolding setting. Marines are also only one faction of a single species amongst many species which requires that most space marine chapter play as a basic marine template. 30K in contrast is a historical setting that tells the civil war between the legions before they are broken down into more controllable chapters. The whole Horus Heresy is about the Astartes when they were at their zenith. It is all the background lore to 40K. It parallels real life honestly. How interesting is any country in modern times, compared to certain points of history.
I think that is honestly the main factor. Maybe it's also worth layering-on the fact the HH setting is *about the 18 legions*, whereas the 40k setting is.... about a number of factions and subfactions that it is very easy to lose track of, honestly. A large number. Then there is the timespan of publication, too: In terms of the books themselves, the pace of their publishing for HH has meant that fleshing out the legions happened in a relatively short time. Contrast that with even *just* the Ultramarines in 40k, which have their stories stretched over a much longer time-frame, and partly have their identity burdened with "being the face" of space marines, not just their own identity. This is doubly true for traitors, whose representation in 40k is scattered and individual legions don't get much more than an Omnibus if that, basically.
Exactly. And by the time a new series about “Chapter X” comes out, the old one(s), if there were any are probably being partially retconned if not ignored just because of time frame. Contrast that with HH, like you say, they’ve had a goal in sight with clear markers along the way to flesh out a specific era through the stories of the legions. The legions are also much more multi-dimensional than 40K grim dark near automatons hunting artifacts and purging xenos. In 40K they serve more as a stormtrooper analogy than heroes and villains with character arcs. I realize there are really great 40K novels where this is not true, but I’m speaking generally about the setting.
Honestly it's better that way, the 40k imperium is a failed state propelled by madness and spite. For all its faults the 30k Imperium actually existed for more than its own sake.
I think sometimes people forget that 40k is a game with a setting wrapped around it to give it mystique and context, not a story that they made a game about. As you said, 30k gave the writers much more freedom to build out the story for the players involved. Also there are an insane amount of books that make up the horus heresy story so things are bound to be more detailed just based on volume alone
I feel like they went wild with 30k lore, because they could. 40k is structured so that everything is vague, and built upon history— so much so, that when it cane time to actually make that history, they were able to do whatever they wanted. Take my favorite, the Iron Hands as an example— in 40k, it’s a bunch of cyborg dudes with not much else going on. In 30k, there’s the whole feeling of a large family based on Scottish clans, the use of technology to improve without perfecting, CYBORG ZOMBIES, and a drive to be the best they can manage. They really seized the opportunity to give more character to the legions as a whole.
Because it's obvious - ten thousand years is not a joke, and they were a whole legion to conquer the galaxy, rather than the gatherings of entirely independent chapters. Although the whole body was not moves together and those legions are scattered through the galaxy by each company to chapter, but they do have the connections and belongings to their legion, also their formation was based on full scale war rather than specialized paratrooper/marine of 40k space marines. Not to mention that the era when those legions are founded, changed after they meet their father, and the scar left by the heresy, surely cause great impact on those. Such as poor orphans of Ferrus who were gone mad so far and obsessed with power, suggests the grave wound they have suffered ever since. But it can't be helped, for they lost everything and what is left is nothing but the vengence. Meanwhile, although obsessed with perfection, but once were noble sons of Fulgrim become nothing but the group of madman and indulge in debauchery at the dawn of heresy, is also a tragedy. Well, personally it was a shock that the XVIIth were founded to remove every single religious belief on galaxy. Such a fanatics of chaos gods and were worshiped the emperor as a god before heresy, were actually started as the iconoclasts, was really ironical.
40k has so many different chapters and armies competing for attention. There's still quite a lot, but for many the majority of their info is from a book, a white dwarf index astartes article and a paragraph in a codex. Compared to the 70-odd books in the heresy (including the primarchs & siege of terra books), and the old black books by FW, focused on just the 18 legions. It's allowed them to be far more fleshed out, especially with characters being followed and growing/changing throughout the series.
As a Raven Guard fan first, and foremost, 30K Ravens felt human. Most of the astartes, and even crew we meet during novels were former slaves, and rebel fighters who fought alongside Corax to liberate their homeworld. In a sense, they were like freedom fighters who were capable of rallying local populations to fight with them for compliance. Speaking to their abilities as a legion based on stealth...it felt like it made a lot more sense of the Great Crusade, and during the Heresy as a small legion that prioritized hit, and run, intelligence, and sabotage, objectives that don't seem so necessary with the threats introduced in 40k. I wish they could have more of a presence in 40k.
Yeah unfortunately, it seems the purpose a lot of legions were made for are not as common as in the great crusade/heresy. Honestly the Raven Guard are not put in positions in the lore atm to show their stuff. A lot more of that attention is honestly given to the Raptors which is really unfortunate. Which to me isn’t them being obsolete in 40k but just poor writing or lack there of.
I don't think they are entirely obsolete, but writing for them would take more effort than just throwing them headfirst into a battle. There was a short story I remember reading about some information the chapter master didn't want to fall into the hands of in inquisition, lest it would put a brother chapter's records into question. A squad is sent to intercept a train, where they are ambushed by a demonic entity. Really interesting story that ends on a brutal cliffhanger that hasn't been expanded upon. The legion operating in the shadows is so entertaining, but it limits them to the stories they partake in. Hunt of Voldorius has the Raven Guard, and White Scars teaming up, but I have yet to read it.
Yeah i think you hit it. More care has to be put into writing them so I think its just explored less. Really unfortunate.
Yeah, I would agree with that. I'm a big 30k Dark Angels fan but didn't care for the 40k chapter until the lion and 30k marines started showing up. I think it's probably that 30k was so vague in the beginning they were able to do more interesting things full send, while 40k always had to stick somewhat to previous lore only making small changes here and there.
There are three exceptions as far as I’m concerned. Alpha Legion - the warbands that are loyal, fully chaos aligned, somewhere in the middle but still are Alpha Legion. There was a snippet in one of the Arks of Omens about them basically running a deathwatch facility. Thousand sons - they really came into themselves post heresy IMO. Avoiding cartoonish evil Ahriman torturing Eldar for kicks - I think they become more interesting after. Death Guard - in the HH they come across as dependable but kinda just background (excluding Typhus). Post heresy you have them keeping pet nurglings, obsessively counting and raising zombie armies. Vorx is one of my favourite characters in current lore
Death Guard remains peak in 30k and 40k.
I think it's just because 30k was a clean slate to try to develop a different take on the classic chapters, when those same chapters in 40k sort of developed as a result of a combination of business decisions and creative choices (some that stayed and some that ended up being dead ends), resulting in sometimes strange lore. 30k was an opportunity to look at what was there for each of them and try to build a cohesive prequel/origin story, and also just do something deliberately different in order to make sure that the eras feel distinct from each other. 30k's lore couldn't be the way it is without having 40k's to build off of, but it benefits a lot from that foundation. When you are able to look at what doesn't work (and what does), you can create something that works better.
I think this comes form several things. Chaos legions didn't had a propper depiction and special rules/units in 40k for a long time. With the 3rd edition codex the last time for real, until recently. While loyal marines got all standardized with the codex astartes and lost much of their flavor, with the exception of some. Just, having legion unique units, weapons, upgrade kits, RoW's does so much to make them feel more unique, to 40k. Lorewise it's the same. The legions have more options to (non primaris 40k) marines, in general types of warfare. Artillery, breachers, super heavy tanks, jetbikes.... When all this stuff was first released when heresy started out, in the time of 40ks 6th edition, it felt like getting what we had missed out on for years. And the different armor MK's just allow to even deepen such themes. 30k allows through all of these elements more individual character of forces, factions and armies. I honestly think 40k would be better if marines always had most of the heresy options in their arsenal (maybe except jetbikes and javelin landspeeder), while still being limited to 1000 in numbers as a loyal chapter. (+never doing primaris).
The Horus heresy book series give a lot of characters, inspiration and Alan Bligh’s Black Books. They just dive into much more depth than *most* of what we get in 40k. Certainly some factions have a lot going for them in 40k eg. Ultramarines, Death guard, Blood Angels.
There’s a variety for factors. For one, there’s *way* more factions in 40k so the lore each faction gets is diluted. When heresy has just a couple dozen it becomes a lot easier to give them more in-depth lore, and only 18 of those really need to be given actual depth. Another factor is the heresy is, in a way, a ‘historical’ event for a ‘historical’ wargame. As a result, you need to have a lot more in depth lore for you to enable… well, the ‘historic’ battles and factions to be accurately represented. Look at it like a Napoleonic or WW2 wargame - they’re meant to be narrative and historically accurate using, digging into the history of the events to make sure everything is as accurate as can be - and heresy is in a way that but in the far future.
The sons of Horus are infinitely cooler than the black legion. They had a proper niche, Abaddon wasn’t annoying as fuck, and their aesthetic was a lot more unique than just generic chaos.
Because they stopped writing lore for factions around 4th Edition and have just continuously recycled and paraphrased the same thing for six editions. Heresy is fresh, and always has new things being added. Add onto that a Heresy Legion is everything a space marine should be, massive fleets, hundreds of thousands of legionaries to build your own “dudes” from, Primarchs, and the Imperium at the strongest it has ever been it all just feels better than 40K where half the galaxy cants leave their solar system, chapters are a just a thousand guys, ships are weak by design, and the aliens just aren’t compelling anymore.
In many case yes, especially the heritic legion has depth they simple lack in 40k. With probably world eaters being the most extreme example. However I feel for blood angels it is the opposite.
I feel the fiction (the FW Heresy Books are mostly fine) for Night Lords is just really bad. Sevatar gets siloed, Curze gets siloed. The only Night Lords character with significant screen time after that is Skraivok, who basically reads as Guy Haley's* tempter tantrum about the Night Lords existing. I think the Traitors generally get short shrift, but the Night Lords get taken out by the woodshed. 40k's better for Night Lords because they're at least free of the black hole of "Sigismund or the Lion or whoever needs to be stroked off again". Four great novels is better than a lot of factions get. *I've warmed up to Haley, but Pharos is trash.
I type a bad analogy let me try again: To put another way, 30k has 18 legions to write about over let’s say 100 books, each one gets 5 books. In 40k you have an unknown amount more chapters plus xenos scum. So over 100 books, only one or two can be about each chapter and maybe represent the founding legion.
I love the Dark Angels in general, but I definitely prefer the legion over the chapter
Yeah personally before the Lion returned I felt the lore for the Dark Angels was extremely one dimensional in 40k
Edit: in a way I feel like that about most Legions with absentee fathers. They almost just get boiled down to their most basic but the primarch adds their complicated personality to the dynamic of the legion overall making them more interesting.