The Emperor was originally on the Golden Throne just due to age/tiredness/using too much psychic power. The Horus Heresy was only created because starting out GW had a very limited amount of molds available and wanted lore reason for near identical armies fighting each other.
I also thought so. And.. this is NOT true. I just bought WD 94 to 98. So the very first ones with w40k content, year before Titanicus, and the Horus Heresy is mentioned.
Yeah, the very first mention of the Heresy was a lore snippet that was literally written because they had to fill in some excess space on a page. And then the idea was taken for Titanicus, since it gave them an excuse for having two identical armies fighting each other (which they had to do because the alternative was making an extra mould for a second faction, which would've been expensive).
Is it a retcon? I mean did it contradict any astablished lore at the time other than the old age on the throne stuff. Or was it more like fake it till you make it
I think I’ve read that they had wanted chaos on the setting during development (it already existed in fantasy) but weren’t sure how to implement it at first.
Edit: just adding to this, I think the thing I read said that they had enslavers, warp beasts, and vampire in the original RT book as a more scifi flavored take on chaos stuff
\[This is incorrect, but leaving up so others can learn as I did\]
~~Rogue Trader, and by extension 40k, predates fantasy, so that order of things seems rather unlikely.~~
Oh shit, you're right. I started playing back in 94, was always under the impression rogue trader had been their first own product, when they moved on from making dnd miniatures.
I guess it just took up more space, with it's creative overlap with 2000 AD being so prevalent in the 80's, and how much it influenced the early aesthetics.
TIL. Cheers.
It's fine I guess. GW has been around for decades. I knew fantasy was older than 40k, but not particularly caring about it I totally missed exactly how old it was. With all the changes they introduced over the years, no wonder.
To add on this, a lot of gear had half points and some gear also subtracted movement if you carried too much on a model. So you could end up with a model that cost 180.5 points that had a movement of 3.4 inches. Tons of wacky stuff like that. Insanely customizable though
As somebody playing back then, it was wild. And we didn't miss understand it. GW literally cut the points scale in half, doubling the number of models on the board.
It makes for a bigger more epic game AND sells twice as many models.
Even better, this guy has a model...
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/186370439891?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0&ssspo=2U3yrC-YQY6&sssrc=4429486&ssuid=vlD92spvRTm&var=&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY
Fun fact: this guy is named after [Romanian tennis ace Ille Nastase ](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ilie_N%C4%83stase).
No, I don't know why either
They recently revived the name for an Eldar Farseer who has appeared in some recent Black Library novels
Their poster-Ork is named for a certain [much maligned British Prime Minister](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Margaret_Thatcher), and back in the day there was an inquisitor called Obiwan Sherlock Clousseau. I don't think there's any rhyme or reason to the naming conventions.
Even more classic is Lion El'Jonson still being a central character in the setting. Hilarious and bizarrely specific reference to a relatively niche poet.
The very first published piece of 40k text was in a White Dwarf in, I think, late 1986. It featured a space marine squad with members named after the then-resurgent 60s novelty band The Monkees
Andy Chambers has denied Ghaz was named after Thatcher. He claims it was based on his understanding of Tolkien's black speech in his LARP group.
People keep contriving reasons why he's lying, but honestly it sounds perfectly plausible to me.
I’ll have to dig it up, but I think somebody like Bryan Ansell or Rick Priestly has doubled down on it being true, end result being we might never be able to figure out what’s up
I feel that even if it wasn't initially intentional they must have been aware people were making the unintended connection early on, and just thought 'eh whatever'
I mean all Fluff is Fanfiction to a certain extent, but it was all *hardcore* Fanfiction at that stage.
Just dudes making up shit on the fly and having a laugh
Even 2nd edition was much closer to modern army sizes. 1st edition - Rogue Trader - is closer to Kill Team or Necromunda. It had RPG elements, and was really designed for squad-skirmish level combat.
I mean it also depends on how many points you use. A modern 40k army can be bigger if you play 5000 points. I habe never played RT or 2ed but every battle report I've seen didn't have more than 40 minis per side.
I miss vortex grenades, or the vortex psychic power. Also miss thr days of failing psychic tests and a daemon comes out of the warp and would eat your psychers head. Good times...
And my personal favorite: rolling scatter dice for deep strike unit. Watch that 10 man assault squad vaporize on their deep strike because you rolled a hit and snake eyes....
Ah? I started in 3rd, and this looked awfully like a Space Marine stat block in that edition (there was no Int, Cl, WP), so I thought he had 3 toughness for being half eldar
I remember using those stats, they belong more in Role playing games these days, rather than the tabletop wargames.
Another thing was. Orks were normal species. Not a fungus. You could have chaos Orks, rogue trader Orks, genestealer Orks. Squiggs were the result of the Tyranids trying to use Ork DNA, but the Ork DNA was "too orky" and the bioforms turned on the Tyranids when they next encountered Orks.
Tyranids were attracted to the Galaxy by Chaos in the Warp, not any beacon, astranomicon, etc. as revealed in the novel, Space Marine, by a Zoanthrope talking to the main characters.
Genestealers were a separate species from Tyranids.
Necrons were zombie terminators, instead of Pokémon collectors they are today.
Squigs were originally just part of the Ork ecosystem in Waarrgh the Orks in 1990, they were added to the ‘Nids in WD 142 in 1992. Then removed in Codex Tyranids in 1995, oddly they are one of the few things added to Fantasy Battle after appearing in 40K first joining the Orc and Goblin army in 4th edition in 1996.
They kept getting thrown off by all the 'see rules text on pXX' that the non-existent editors didn't update when things were assigned page numbers in the first 40k rulebook. (Source - still have my copy somewhere, but frankensteined into a ring binder because the glue was crap too and all the pages fell out about 6 months after purchase)
I looked it up in the rule book and they laid out the whole points process and formula as to how they worked out the points value. Also a gretchin was 2 1/4 points.
Edit: On the other end of things Warhammer Fantasy 3rd ed had elementals that were 1000 points each.
A couple of recent ones:
The Leagues of Votaan have always been there, they've had interactions with the Imperium over the last 10,000 years. The Demiurg are not a xenos species, but a branch of the abhuman Leagues. The Tau didn't get Ion Cannon technology from a xenos race, but from the Leagues who are descended from DaoT humans. There was no mention of the Leagues in the Badab war, despite the fact they were right next door.
The Kroot don't just have Shapers and Master Shapers, but have always had several different types of Shaper with different battlefield and cultural roles.
That doesn't even scratch the surface of the big, universe changing ones - the introduction of the Tau, the complete change in the Necrons, the complete change in skitarii, Craftworld and Dark Eldar suddenly having a new name, the flipping back and forth on why the Black Templars don't have Librarians and if they hate or revere Astropaths and Navigators, plus the many changes made when the Horus Heresy was novelized. Etc.
I don't know how you could mention universe changing ones and not mention the original Necron introduction. The Tau and Leagues of Votann were written specifically to *avoid* another Necron disaster. Where they introduced the Necrons as a faction that were not only an invincible doomsday race. but the reason **Eldar, Orks, and CHAOS existed**.
Why folks constantly bring up the 5th edition retcon making them Tomb Kings in space, but blatantly ignore the one that completely changed the IP in its entirety is beyond me.
Fair! We got Tau, Necrons and Dark Eldar in (relatively) quick succession, so I suppose I still think of that as the setting getting its feet under itself, rather than a retcon. But since OP is going back to Rogue Trader, you're absolutely right, it was a huge addition.
I think it's because all of those existed in lore before. So it felt like old stuff finally gettinf models rather than new universe additions.
As for the other three, dark eldar and Necrons fit the settings dark tone a bit better than tau. I don't think there's anything wrong with tau in the setting, but I can see why they stood out to some people in comparison
Pretty sure they had their first models and rules toward the end of 2nd edition, and were introduced by the factions mucking about in GorkaMorka who stumbled upon a pyramid and accidentally woke up its inhabitants.
My memory could be a bit fuzzy on that. Not sure why it would be, it wasn’t *that* long ago, right? …Right?
That's an interesting one, with the Necrons having been in stasis for long enough to be forgotten by every living race their re-emergence could have been played off as the existing factions only then putting together those important aspects of their past.
I guess it's why I prefer lore that works with the uncertainty of those living in it, rather than giving objective omniscient statements about how things are and were.
To be fair to the Leagues during the Badab war, if my neighbor’s cousin came over and asked for some sugar and it escalated into a gunfight, I probably wouldn’t walk over to see if either one of them wanted to buy something from me
To be fair the necron changes are pretty interesting. 2 different reasons "diseases" that cause them to go all murder bot and their main overarching theme being stuffy ancient nobility thinking everything is a savage but them is fun.
I don't really see X has always been there as a retcon (Kroot Shapers, some of the imperial equipmnt) unless it contradicts what's said before (like Leagues being wiped out or Female Custodes) or if its mere existence creates plotholes.
I don't know why this half eldar get so much attention as the ultimate retcon when the very same article is so full of crazy early lore completely rewritten. I don't even know where to begin :
- Ultramarines are a second foundation chapter
- Maccrage has been only recently assigned to the Ultramarines (some decades, no more)
- SM has normal human life expectancies and Marneus Calgar is in his 40's
- By the way, Calgar is a cripple, he can't fight anymore since he had been rescued with other prisoners from a Tyranid Hive Fleet (yes, prisoners !). That's why he is always sit.
- Chaplains are not SM but regular minister of the imperial cult
There is more but I should check my copy before, that's the bulk of what I remember.
The 1st index Astartes about the Ravenwing is even more out of line with a heavily misspelled Lion Johnson (can't remember the exact early spelling) being killed by Leman Russ making both chapters sworn enemies. And Dark Angels also a second founding chapter, from an unknown and kept secret chapter from before the Horus Heresy.
Back when Marines were just dudes in cool armour, who did tours of duty with various chapters like they are present day military units. Not to mention beating Guilliman and Yvraine to creating human-elf hybrids by a couple centuries.
Especially funny when it was a Guardsman doing it. "Oh, you're a 400 year old veteran of countless wars, coming to smash the traitors are you? Well have you met Mrs RPG, she'd like a word with you!"
Marines weren't just dudes with power armour, even in the RT rulebook they are said to be severely indoctrinared and trained and the geneseed organ lore was added not even a year into Rogue Trader's lifespan. Illyan wasn't even a marine, just an astropath.
I know, but even back then, Illyan wasn't both. That's why he worked for two different chapters. The real outlying factor (other than being a half eldar and using power armour for some reason) is that he's said to be the chief librarian too but that's likely to be because the chapter organization changed a lot between RT and 2ed.
Old necromunda had a character named “Mad Donna” who may or may not still be around in new Necromunda.
There’s a near identical character in the new edition with a different name, and it’s not clear if it’s mad Donna renamed, or if they both coexist
Ah yes, the Ultra marines. The THRID chapter of the 1st founding?!?!?!?!
https://preview.redd.it/tuh2fvfziiwc1.png?width=1038&format=png&auto=webp&s=14e9b33ccfc9bb42850364cb03e14f7c0ec93b43
How like half of the horus heresy era space marine armor types were both highly rare and sought after, and also mass produced and shipped to every legion in bulk. It's just funny
Haah, completely forgot about this one. An Eldar Space Marine, indeed...
My favourite has to be the Horus Heresy happened, and that The Emperor was betrayed rather than he just got tired and worn out from thousands of years of fighting.
Genestealers weren't originally Tyranids, they were their own separate species of slugs that did the whole Genestealer thing and later had to be rolled into actually being Tyranids when that stopped making sense. Old like 1st Edition Rouge Trader says you can't field Nids alone and that some amount of your force must be Zotes (I think that's the spelling) which are what Genestealers were.
I think more people know about Necrons and how they weren't a thing but in 2nd Edition there were Chaos Androids and that's the base from which Necrons built from.
Oh and the entire Horus Heresy. That just was not a thing in lore before the original Adeptus Titanicus and Epic games needed an excuse for why there were only 6 kinds of minis and the Imperium was fighting itself. The Heresy exists because they needed a civil war setting for their robot game and now it's THE inciting incident in 40k.
Zoats. Which are similar visually, but completely different in their lore from Warhammer Fantasy Zoats which are forest creatures that are masters of life magic. But they're both said to be mysterious and elusive.
barely a retcon really, it was added in 1990 in rogue trader so is pretty solidly in the 'see what sticks' lore period, i do love it though its so goofy
At the time I was the only one in my gaming circle that liked the Necron lore changes. And I was the only Necron player at the time. None of them believed me that in a few years people would prefer the new lore. The only bad change was getting rid of Pariahs. I think they were just stuck on the Matt Ward hate to be honest, which I kinda get after the shambles of that Marines codex.
The 5e Dark Eldar codex was a work of art. I met Phil Kelly in Warhammer World when I was there for a few games one Saturday, if I'd had the codex with me I'd have asked him to sign it. So many cool characters just gone now though, it's such a shame.
not malal/malice himself but the fact that malal/malice was retconned because of some weird legal issues where malal/malice isnt owned by GW but a company GW was partnered with at the time
i dont recall the specifics of it if anyone could clarify my almost entirely incorrect explanation
That's pretty much the gist of it, though I think Malice was meant to be Malal's replacement after the whole legal debacle. The funny thing is that neither GW or the original owner of Malice/Malal has done anything with him since.
Sons of Malice are still get brought up so I guess maybe he still exists?
I think they were supposed to be the 40k equivalent of the Slaan at first from the Lizardmen, but the lizardmen never did quite fully make it to 40k. Nor the Skaven for that matter. Maybe they intended to, at some point, in the past.
Here's the image and text for reference: [https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fi.redd.it%2Fdi9zppo4v7201.jpg](https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fi.redd.it%2Fdi9zppo4v7201.jpg)
Just a *slightly* bit different from the savage warrior king of Fenris we know today. :P
Do you guys know that the Gellar Field was named after Uri Geller, a very famous “psychic” from the 70s. Dude used to bend spoons “with his mind”. Hence created a psychic protection field.
The primarchs were a great idea, they've obviously left a good impression on the community, and I'm glad that they decided to retcon them into being these demigod type gene crafted creations of the emperor, and not just normal generals working under the emperor.
If not that, turning the Genestealer Cults into a offshoot of the tyranids, as a kind of proceeding tactic of them gives them a new angle, to where before they were just big headed mutant guys on the moon. I think it genuinely made them better as a faction to be part of a bigger plot.
This is why I was so annoyed by the naysayers screaming retcon at the custodes changes. All of modern 40k is essentially a retcon. They literally just change shit in a new editions codex and then "that's how it always was".
2017: The custodians have been leaving the palace to fight wars and in fact have a network of spies, just forget that never leaving the palace stuff.
[Silence]
2024: some of them were/are women.
[Rage]
Its the most minor of changes that makes pretty much zero difference to anything and the sorts of hyperbole from various youtubers has been hilarious. The comments on YouTube are freaking out as much as you'd expect.
Okay i really should make a post on how 40k usually makes 'Retclarifications' eventually given most retcons that people bring up in arguments to defend \*INSERT CURRENT THING\* are actually given explinations or the background of 40k already provides ample ground.
A good example is that Abnett i think is the first person to use Vox, i think he mentioned it in Gaunt's Ghost's opening in fact... but, well, the imperium's warriors need to talk to eachother so why wouldn't they?
Ultimately a lot of retcons are like that. or they give a reasonable explination (or handwave) as to why X was changed... ROuge Trader was practically it's own continuity and 40k as we know it is the development of 50 years... which is why changes like that need to be made.
thank you.
Most interesting, but LEAST favorite.
When Guilliman began enforcing the Codex Astartes, the Space Wolves got past it with a technicality. They've retconned it so they have 13 companies instead of 10.
They had 13 GREAT Companies. led by the council of 12 jarls and Leman himself. Great Companies were CHAPTER sized units originally.
The Yellow field with a black wolf head? That's not the symbol of the Space Wolves. That's the symbol of the Blackmanes. What today would be termed a successor chapter. As are the 12 other sigils.
The Champions of Fenris
The Bloodmaws
The Seawolves
The Sons of Morkai
The Red Moons
The Deathwolves
The Stormwolves
The Ironwolves
The Drakeslayers
The Blackmanes
The Firehowlers
The Grimbloods
The 13th Company - they use the old 30k symbol - were Leman's personal force. Many of us think they took the original name "The Rout"
The technicality was that they were their own "Chapters" but they call themselves great companies.
This got Retconned when the Ultramarisues became the poster boys of 40k during the dark days of He-Who-Shall-Not-Be-Named. (He went out of his way to state that even the Wolves idolized the UM's. Disgusting.)
Lion El’Jonson. Literally just the name of an English poet named Lionel Johnson that wrote a poem called The Dark Angel. 🤦🏼
The Legion of the Damned was just a paintjob by a guy that used the old hot rods with flames as a basis. Add some skeletons and it fits the “metal” vibe of the time. Somehow they turned into space ghosts. 🤦🏼
I also used to have a space marine with a shuriken catapult. 🤷🏼
https://preview.redd.it/evvfiwz4qlwc1.jpeg?width=3000&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=e34c9aa8a8c86871e19fbbd5319c31dbe043ffbe
It's good, but this is my all-time favourite: Ladies and gentlemen, the original Leman Russ.
> current year 987
Ive been reading 40k for the last ~13ish years and im still always surprised when an older piece of lore pops up that dates the lore to the same super late 41st as the pre-Gathering Storm and Indomitus era stuff. You'd think that with 1,000 years to work with there'sld be more variety in when stories take place but nah, it was almost all exclusively late 41st millenia.
The setting should be in 024 M42 with the same logic. But GW decided quickly to drop the real time then they dropped the entire concept of datation after the Indomitus fiasco.
The Emperor was originally on the Golden Throne just due to age/tiredness/using too much psychic power. The Horus Heresy was only created because starting out GW had a very limited amount of molds available and wanted lore reason for near identical armies fighting each other.
It was specifically the creation of Adeptus Titanicus I think- they wanted two of the same armies in the boxed set
Yup, first mention of Horus Heresy is in that rulebook
I also thought so. And.. this is NOT true. I just bought WD 94 to 98. So the very first ones with w40k content, year before Titanicus, and the Horus Heresy is mentioned.
Yeah, the very first mention of the Heresy was a lore snippet that was literally written because they had to fill in some excess space on a page. And then the idea was taken for Titanicus, since it gave them an excuse for having two identical armies fighting each other (which they had to do because the alternative was making an extra mould for a second faction, which would've been expensive).
All the best things came out of “o shit we’re gonna go broke if we keep going.”
Is it a retcon? I mean did it contradict any astablished lore at the time other than the old age on the throne stuff. Or was it more like fake it till you make it
I think I’ve read that they had wanted chaos on the setting during development (it already existed in fantasy) but weren’t sure how to implement it at first. Edit: just adding to this, I think the thing I read said that they had enslavers, warp beasts, and vampire in the original RT book as a more scifi flavored take on chaos stuff
\[This is incorrect, but leaving up so others can learn as I did\] ~~Rogue Trader, and by extension 40k, predates fantasy, so that order of things seems rather unlikely.~~
Umm, no? Fantasy 1ed was published in 83, rogue trader in 87
Oh shit, you're right. I started playing back in 94, was always under the impression rogue trader had been their first own product, when they moved on from making dnd miniatures. I guess it just took up more space, with it's creative overlap with 2000 AD being so prevalent in the 80's, and how much it influenced the early aesthetics. TIL. Cheers.
It's fine I guess. GW has been around for decades. I knew fantasy was older than 40k, but not particularly caring about it I totally missed exactly how old it was. With all the changes they introduced over the years, no wonder.
I'm just stuck on his point cost
And a half is crazy
Someway my brain is always gonna think of fantasy goblins being 2 1/2 points It's just what I remember and will be there forever
He was SOooooooOoooooo broken at 181!!!
he is a half-elf after all...
I also just noticed that wtf
The first iterations of 40k were more akin to kill team; more skirmish type battles instead of army vs army.
That doesn't explain the 1/2
To add on this, a lot of gear had half points and some gear also subtracted movement if you carried too much on a model. So you could end up with a model that cost 180.5 points that had a movement of 3.4 inches. Tons of wacky stuff like that. Insanely customizable though
Genuinely so cool, would be interesting to see if GW flirts with that again if they refuse to bring back war gear costs
Just go back and play older editions, there's literally nothing stopping u.
Other than no one else to play with, but I agree with you
Its becuse he his an half breed.
Half Xeno. He’ll never be a full member of the emperors sons
Like, a 2000 point battle was something like 4 squads, 1 character, and a vehicle.
The scale jump from 2nd Ed to 3rd ed was just mental when you look back at it
Bigger armies = more models sold I assume was the reasoning?
As somebody playing back then, it was wild. And we didn't miss understand it. GW literally cut the points scale in half, doubling the number of models on the board. It makes for a bigger more epic game AND sells twice as many models.
Even better, this guy has a model... https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/186370439891?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0&ssspo=2U3yrC-YQY6&sssrc=4429486&ssuid=vlD92spvRTm&var=&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY
How does a half point even work?
I'm assuming if you have two half points, it makes a whole point
Big news if true
Huge tidings if verified
Enormous if correct
Astounding if accurate
Preposterous if incorrect
Ludicrous if authentic.
They are a witch! Burn them!
Is this official in Codex: Maths?
It's an FAQ to the codex supplement: Arithmetek of Codex Adeptus Mathematica
1/2 plus 1/2 equals 1 point. They teach this stuff in elementary school
Pretty sure Gretchen (Grots for you younguns) were all 2.5 pts a model at some stage
Fun fact: this guy is named after [Romanian tennis ace Ille Nastase ](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ilie_N%C4%83stase). No, I don't know why either They recently revived the name for an Eldar Farseer who has appeared in some recent Black Library novels
Their poster-Ork is named for a certain [much maligned British Prime Minister](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Margaret_Thatcher), and back in the day there was an inquisitor called Obiwan Sherlock Clousseau. I don't think there's any rhyme or reason to the naming conventions.
Even more classic is Lion El'Jonson still being a central character in the setting. Hilarious and bizarrely specific reference to a relatively niche poet.
He wrote a poem called The Dark Angel about his shameful secret. Nothing to do with a certain chapter with a shameful secret, of course.
The very first published piece of 40k text was in a White Dwarf in, I think, late 1986. It featured a space marine squad with members named after the then-resurgent 60s novelty band The Monkees
Andy Chambers has denied Ghaz was named after Thatcher. He claims it was based on his understanding of Tolkien's black speech in his LARP group. People keep contriving reasons why he's lying, but honestly it sounds perfectly plausible to me.
I’ll have to dig it up, but I think somebody like Bryan Ansell or Rick Priestly has doubled down on it being true, end result being we might never be able to figure out what’s up
I feel that even if it wasn't initially intentional they must have been aware people were making the unintended connection early on, and just thought 'eh whatever'
https://preview.redd.it/a44liv1vaiwc1.jpeg?width=634&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=d68ccb4c10e0e534f854da1da2def46d27a94e8f Hmmmmm....
He denies it but early lore had ghaz's nickname as the iron ork..and he devastates Armageddon the \*industrial world\*
I mean all Fluff is Fanfiction to a certain extent, but it was all *hardcore* Fanfiction at that stage. Just dudes making up shit on the fly and having a laugh
Arbitor Ian has a [great video](https://youtu.be/_u_nsUds7Jw) on where the names of all the primarchs and their legions came from.
3 toughness, 1 wound for 181 points (and a half??), my boy Nastase is not made for the frontlines
Before 3rd edition 40k was more of a squad game than an army game. You would have 20 minis in your whole list not 50 or 80 like today.
Even 2nd edition was much closer to modern army sizes. 1st edition - Rogue Trader - is closer to Kill Team or Necromunda. It had RPG elements, and was really designed for squad-skirmish level combat.
A Space Marine army would have closer to 40, Orks would double that.
I mean it also depends on how many points you use. A modern 40k army can be bigger if you play 5000 points. I habe never played RT or 2ed but every battle report I've seen didn't have more than 40 minis per side.
2000 was pretty standard at the time, Marines cost 300pts a squad but gear and characters would take up a lot of points.
No invul save Bro is not cookin' 💀💀💀
Can't invul save when someone casts vortex in your face... Rogue trader and 2nd Ed were different times :p
I miss vortex grenades, or the vortex psychic power. Also miss thr days of failing psychic tests and a daemon comes out of the warp and would eat your psychers head. Good times... And my personal favorite: rolling scatter dice for deep strike unit. Watch that 10 man assault squad vaporize on their deep strike because you rolled a hit and snake eyes....
Or deep strike near terrain and lose a few guys as they materialise into the walls.
I remember when they moved space marines from 3 to 4 toughness. Wild times
Ah? I started in 3rd, and this looked awfully like a Space Marine stat block in that edition (there was no Int, Cl, WP), so I thought he had 3 toughness for being half eldar
lol. Thought the same thing. how's a guy get to 76 at T3 1W in the 41st millennium..
I remember using those stats, they belong more in Role playing games these days, rather than the tabletop wargames. Another thing was. Orks were normal species. Not a fungus. You could have chaos Orks, rogue trader Orks, genestealer Orks. Squiggs were the result of the Tyranids trying to use Ork DNA, but the Ork DNA was "too orky" and the bioforms turned on the Tyranids when they next encountered Orks. Tyranids were attracted to the Galaxy by Chaos in the Warp, not any beacon, astranomicon, etc. as revealed in the novel, Space Marine, by a Zoanthrope talking to the main characters. Genestealers were a separate species from Tyranids. Necrons were zombie terminators, instead of Pokémon collectors they are today.
Squigs were originally just part of the Ork ecosystem in Waarrgh the Orks in 1990, they were added to the ‘Nids in WD 142 in 1992. Then removed in Codex Tyranids in 1995, oddly they are one of the few things added to Fantasy Battle after appearing in 40K first joining the Orc and Goblin army in 4th edition in 1996.
squids were indeed too orky, so they just had to appear in fantasy
Who on the balance team decided 182 points was 0.5 too many…?
[удалено]
They kept getting thrown off by all the 'see rules text on pXX' that the non-existent editors didn't update when things were assigned page numbers in the first 40k rulebook. (Source - still have my copy somewhere, but frankensteined into a ring binder because the glue was crap too and all the pages fell out about 6 months after purchase)
When new rules come out you can just swap the pages out, rogue trader FAQ due any day now.
This was the 80s, GW didn’t have a balance team
Do they have one now?
Yes, but they are 6 - 12 months behind meta at all times.
I looked it up in the rule book and they laid out the whole points process and formula as to how they worked out the points value. Also a gretchin was 2 1/4 points. Edit: On the other end of things Warhammer Fantasy 3rd ed had elementals that were 1000 points each.
Those things were nuts. 10 in all stats, but every wound taken dropped all their stats. Near the end they’d have 1s in all stats.
A couple of recent ones: The Leagues of Votaan have always been there, they've had interactions with the Imperium over the last 10,000 years. The Demiurg are not a xenos species, but a branch of the abhuman Leagues. The Tau didn't get Ion Cannon technology from a xenos race, but from the Leagues who are descended from DaoT humans. There was no mention of the Leagues in the Badab war, despite the fact they were right next door. The Kroot don't just have Shapers and Master Shapers, but have always had several different types of Shaper with different battlefield and cultural roles. That doesn't even scratch the surface of the big, universe changing ones - the introduction of the Tau, the complete change in the Necrons, the complete change in skitarii, Craftworld and Dark Eldar suddenly having a new name, the flipping back and forth on why the Black Templars don't have Librarians and if they hate or revere Astropaths and Navigators, plus the many changes made when the Horus Heresy was novelized. Etc.
I don't know how you could mention universe changing ones and not mention the original Necron introduction. The Tau and Leagues of Votann were written specifically to *avoid* another Necron disaster. Where they introduced the Necrons as a faction that were not only an invincible doomsday race. but the reason **Eldar, Orks, and CHAOS existed**. Why folks constantly bring up the 5th edition retcon making them Tomb Kings in space, but blatantly ignore the one that completely changed the IP in its entirety is beyond me.
Fair! We got Tau, Necrons and Dark Eldar in (relatively) quick succession, so I suppose I still think of that as the setting getting its feet under itself, rather than a retcon. But since OP is going back to Rogue Trader, you're absolutely right, it was a huge addition.
its weird how out of those 3 its only tau that people still concider a "new" faction.
Ad. Mech, Custodes, and Knights are all newer
I think it's because all of those existed in lore before. So it felt like old stuff finally gettinf models rather than new universe additions. As for the other three, dark eldar and Necrons fit the settings dark tone a bit better than tau. I don't think there's anything wrong with tau in the setting, but I can see why they stood out to some people in comparison
The necrons I somewhat understand for not being seen as the new faction. They had limited models before as a white dwarf army.
1st ed Eldar had some dark Eldar vibes from the beginning.
Pretty sure they had their first models and rules toward the end of 2nd edition, and were introduced by the factions mucking about in GorkaMorka who stumbled upon a pyramid and accidentally woke up its inhabitants. My memory could be a bit fuzzy on that. Not sure why it would be, it wasn’t *that* long ago, right? …Right?
That's an interesting one, with the Necrons having been in stasis for long enough to be forgotten by every living race their re-emergence could have been played off as the existing factions only then putting together those important aspects of their past. I guess it's why I prefer lore that works with the uncertainty of those living in it, rather than giving objective omniscient statements about how things are and were.
To be fair to the Leagues during the Badab war, if my neighbor’s cousin came over and asked for some sugar and it escalated into a gunfight, I probably wouldn’t walk over to see if either one of them wanted to buy something from me
Ah, I see it more like there is a civil war in the next door country, and you can sell weapons to both sides :p.
I miss the Pariah's. Also, not very 'Necron-y', but, this OG [concept art](https://imgur.com/4FPFKh9) is something else.
To be fair the necron changes are pretty interesting. 2 different reasons "diseases" that cause them to go all murder bot and their main overarching theme being stuffy ancient nobility thinking everything is a savage but them is fun.
I don't really see X has always been there as a retcon (Kroot Shapers, some of the imperial equipmnt) unless it contradicts what's said before (like Leagues being wiped out or Female Custodes) or if its mere existence creates plotholes.
The Valedictors and Rainbow Warriors were straight up among the original space marine legions, presumably the two lost legions
What??
I don't know why this half eldar get so much attention as the ultimate retcon when the very same article is so full of crazy early lore completely rewritten. I don't even know where to begin : - Ultramarines are a second foundation chapter - Maccrage has been only recently assigned to the Ultramarines (some decades, no more) - SM has normal human life expectancies and Marneus Calgar is in his 40's - By the way, Calgar is a cripple, he can't fight anymore since he had been rescued with other prisoners from a Tyranid Hive Fleet (yes, prisoners !). That's why he is always sit. - Chaplains are not SM but regular minister of the imperial cult There is more but I should check my copy before, that's the bulk of what I remember.
The 1st index Astartes about the Ravenwing is even more out of line with a heavily misspelled Lion Johnson (can't remember the exact early spelling) being killed by Leman Russ making both chapters sworn enemies. And Dark Angels also a second founding chapter, from an unknown and kept secret chapter from before the Horus Heresy.
Okay that Ultramarines one is wild
Back when Marines were just dudes in cool armour, who did tours of duty with various chapters like they are present day military units. Not to mention beating Guilliman and Yvraine to creating human-elf hybrids by a couple centuries.
Now marines are anywhere from invulnerable killing machines to cannon fodder (if they’re CSM and the plot needs them to be)
believe me, i am a Space Marine player and no one hates the plot armor ballistic score more then us.
I used to love taking out Marine captains with a krak missile shot. Instadeath
Especially funny when it was a Guardsman doing it. "Oh, you're a 400 year old veteran of countless wars, coming to smash the traitors are you? Well have you met Mrs RPG, she'd like a word with you!"
Whats that? Your toughness is 4 and my STR is 8? That's double, yeah, that's instant death. GG.
For me it usually an ork who was lucky to be able to point the thing in the right direction.
Marines weren't just dudes with power armour, even in the RT rulebook they are said to be severely indoctrinared and trained and the geneseed organ lore was added not even a year into Rogue Trader's lifespan. Illyan wasn't even a marine, just an astropath.
[удалено]
Yeah, but it was still just a career path thing, not a full monastic life like it is now.
In the rulebook they already have chapter monasteries, recruited as children and are called brothers. It was monastic from the beggining.
Oh, so that half-Eldar Dark Angel Ultramarine Astropath (who is Throne Wed but retained his sight) is just an outlier then. :D
He's an astropath, those aren't vocational but they aren't born within the chapter.
In modern 40k, they aren't part of a Chapter at all. The Chapter uses them, of course, but it's not like you can be both a Marine and an Astropath.
I know, but even back then, Illyan wasn't both. That's why he worked for two different chapters. The real outlying factor (other than being a half eldar and using power armour for some reason) is that he's said to be the chief librarian too but that's likely to be because the chapter organization changed a lot between RT and 2ed.
I don't know if Obiwan Sherlock Clousseau was retconned. If yes then it's him
He’s coming in as the faction leader for the new Agents Of The Imperium codex this summer mark my words
Pretty sure he was not retconned, they just choose not to talk about the second best inquisitor.
Old necromunda had a character named “Mad Donna” who may or may not still be around in new Necromunda. There’s a near identical character in the new edition with a different name, and it’s not clear if it’s mad Donna renamed, or if they both coexist
Ah yes, the Ultra marines. The THRID chapter of the 1st founding?!?!?!?! https://preview.redd.it/tuh2fvfziiwc1.png?width=1038&format=png&auto=webp&s=14e9b33ccfc9bb42850364cb03e14f7c0ec93b43
Is that why so many of the old sticker banners have a numeral III on them?
The fact that Abbadon lost the 13th Black Crusade and then won the 13th Black Crusade
I always thought they chose 13 because it’s supposed to be bad luck
How like half of the horus heresy era space marine armor types were both highly rare and sought after, and also mass produced and shipped to every legion in bulk. It's just funny
Haah, completely forgot about this one. An Eldar Space Marine, indeed... My favourite has to be the Horus Heresy happened, and that The Emperor was betrayed rather than he just got tired and worn out from thousands of years of fighting.
Genestealers weren't originally Tyranids, they were their own separate species of slugs that did the whole Genestealer thing and later had to be rolled into actually being Tyranids when that stopped making sense. Old like 1st Edition Rouge Trader says you can't field Nids alone and that some amount of your force must be Zotes (I think that's the spelling) which are what Genestealers were. I think more people know about Necrons and how they weren't a thing but in 2nd Edition there were Chaos Androids and that's the base from which Necrons built from. Oh and the entire Horus Heresy. That just was not a thing in lore before the original Adeptus Titanicus and Epic games needed an excuse for why there were only 6 kinds of minis and the Imperium was fighting itself. The Heresy exists because they needed a civil war setting for their robot game and now it's THE inciting incident in 40k.
Zoats. Which are similar visually, but completely different in their lore from Warhammer Fantasy Zoats which are forest creatures that are masters of life magic. But they're both said to be mysterious and elusive.
About the Horus Heresy, this is not true. It is mentionned in very early WD (96 I may recall, so 3 months after Rogue Trader release)
Arken Land is so funny. It is maybe my favorite thing added for absolutely no reason.
barely a retcon really, it was added in 1990 in rogue trader so is pretty solidly in the 'see what sticks' lore period, i do love it though its so goofy
Arken Land?
He made the LAND Raider
I think you mean "Land's Raider"! Don't forget his speeder too!
OH YEAH I HAVE HEARD OF HIM
Best retcons? Probably Necrons and Drukhari 5e retcons. From overall lore and style, they definitely upped the game with both factions for the better.
At the time I was the only one in my gaming circle that liked the Necron lore changes. And I was the only Necron player at the time. None of them believed me that in a few years people would prefer the new lore. The only bad change was getting rid of Pariahs. I think they were just stuck on the Matt Ward hate to be honest, which I kinda get after the shambles of that Marines codex. The 5e Dark Eldar codex was a work of art. I met Phil Kelly in Warhammer World when I was there for a few games one Saturday, if I'd had the codex with me I'd have asked him to sign it. So many cool characters just gone now though, it's such a shame.
That the Unforgiven might actually be the loyalist Dark Angels and that the current Dark Angels are trying to keep that secret.
I always loved that lore. It was actually grimdark. Sad it got turned into the mess it is now. Also glad its kind of going back to it in the latest.
Some are. Many are not.
not malal/malice himself but the fact that malal/malice was retconned because of some weird legal issues where malal/malice isnt owned by GW but a company GW was partnered with at the time i dont recall the specifics of it if anyone could clarify my almost entirely incorrect explanation
That's pretty much the gist of it, though I think Malice was meant to be Malal's replacement after the whole legal debacle. The funny thing is that neither GW or the original owner of Malice/Malal has done anything with him since. Sons of Malice are still get brought up so I guess maybe he still exists?
This one is up there for me too
The old ones being entities of light and darkness or something like that while just being lizzard people in older lore
I think they were supposed to be the 40k equivalent of the Slaan at first from the Lizardmen, but the lizardmen never did quite fully make it to 40k. Nor the Skaven for that matter. Maybe they intended to, at some point, in the past.
I think Skaven got mixed between ork and genestealers originally
Am I the only one laughing at "76 REARS old"?
💀 totally missed that
In rogue trader every race uses the same equipment- which leads to an Eldar Harlequin land raider in the Warhammer 40,000 compendium
Have you *seen* original artwork of Leman Russ?
No
He was originally just a human commander and his artwork is of a chewed up old veteran covered in implants
Here's the image and text for reference: [https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fi.redd.it%2Fdi9zppo4v7201.jpg](https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fi.redd.it%2Fdi9zppo4v7201.jpg) Just a *slightly* bit different from the savage warrior king of Fenris we know today. :P
Do you guys know that the Gellar Field was named after Uri Geller, a very famous “psychic” from the 70s. Dude used to bend spoons “with his mind”. Hence created a psychic protection field.
The primarchs were a great idea, they've obviously left a good impression on the community, and I'm glad that they decided to retcon them into being these demigod type gene crafted creations of the emperor, and not just normal generals working under the emperor. If not that, turning the Genestealer Cults into a offshoot of the tyranids, as a kind of proceeding tactic of them gives them a new angle, to where before they were just big headed mutant guys on the moon. I think it genuinely made them better as a faction to be part of a bigger plot.
This is why I was so annoyed by the naysayers screaming retcon at the custodes changes. All of modern 40k is essentially a retcon. They literally just change shit in a new editions codex and then "that's how it always was".
2017: The custodians have been leaving the palace to fight wars and in fact have a network of spies, just forget that never leaving the palace stuff. [Silence] 2024: some of them were/are women. [Rage]
Its the most minor of changes that makes pretty much zero difference to anything and the sorts of hyperbole from various youtubers has been hilarious. The comments on YouTube are freaking out as much as you'd expect.
Okay i really should make a post on how 40k usually makes 'Retclarifications' eventually given most retcons that people bring up in arguments to defend \*INSERT CURRENT THING\* are actually given explinations or the background of 40k already provides ample ground. A good example is that Abnett i think is the first person to use Vox, i think he mentioned it in Gaunt's Ghost's opening in fact... but, well, the imperium's warriors need to talk to eachother so why wouldn't they? Ultimately a lot of retcons are like that. or they give a reasonable explination (or handwave) as to why X was changed... ROuge Trader was practically it's own continuity and 40k as we know it is the development of 50 years... which is why changes like that need to be made. thank you.
Woah, dude is 76 *rears* old?
He's actually Spanish, there was a mixup with the anos/años translation.
This is very funny and it's a shame hardly anyone will see it!
Most interesting, but LEAST favorite. When Guilliman began enforcing the Codex Astartes, the Space Wolves got past it with a technicality. They've retconned it so they have 13 companies instead of 10. They had 13 GREAT Companies. led by the council of 12 jarls and Leman himself. Great Companies were CHAPTER sized units originally. The Yellow field with a black wolf head? That's not the symbol of the Space Wolves. That's the symbol of the Blackmanes. What today would be termed a successor chapter. As are the 12 other sigils. The Champions of Fenris The Bloodmaws The Seawolves The Sons of Morkai The Red Moons The Deathwolves The Stormwolves The Ironwolves The Drakeslayers The Blackmanes The Firehowlers The Grimbloods The 13th Company - they use the old 30k symbol - were Leman's personal force. Many of us think they took the original name "The Rout" The technicality was that they were their own "Chapters" but they call themselves great companies. This got Retconned when the Ultramarisues became the poster boys of 40k during the dark days of He-Who-Shall-Not-Be-Named. (He went out of his way to state that even the Wolves idolized the UM's. Disgusting.)
The '181 1/2 points' is just so funny to me.
Lion El’Jonson. Literally just the name of an English poet named Lionel Johnson that wrote a poem called The Dark Angel. 🤦🏼 The Legion of the Damned was just a paintjob by a guy that used the old hot rods with flames as a basis. Add some skeletons and it fits the “metal” vibe of the time. Somehow they turned into space ghosts. 🤦🏼 I also used to have a space marine with a shuriken catapult. 🤷🏼
"Newcrons" were my favorite retcon by far. Id have never been interested in the army if they stayed as mysterious, mindless murder bots.
Newcrons and Leagues of Votann.
Just enormous daemon, that literally flies with wings though space
https://preview.redd.it/evvfiwz4qlwc1.jpeg?width=3000&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=e34c9aa8a8c86871e19fbbd5319c31dbe043ffbe It's good, but this is my all-time favourite: Ladies and gentlemen, the original Leman Russ.
Old school squats.
As much as I love that they're back, I still miss that the new ones don't have the same vibe.
> current year 987 Ive been reading 40k for the last ~13ish years and im still always surprised when an older piece of lore pops up that dates the lore to the same super late 41st as the pre-Gathering Storm and Indomitus era stuff. You'd think that with 1,000 years to work with there'sld be more variety in when stories take place but nah, it was almost all exclusively late 41st millenia.
The Ciaphus Cain novels mostly take place earlier in that century at least, so no Hive Fleet Leviathan and the Necrons were just starting to wake up
Because it WAS the current year 987 M2... Early w40k was supposed to evolve on real time precisely 40k years in the future.
The setting should be in 024 M42 with the same logic. But GW decided quickly to drop the real time then they dropped the entire concept of datation after the Indomitus fiasco.
James 40Hammers surely would make good sales on a nostalgic re-issue of Rogue Trader and the first codices, even if only as POD
They just did this for Rogue Trader, I think it was last September/October.
That statline is insane compared to newer editions
Fub fact! While no longer a half-eldar space marine, Illiyan Nastase does still exsist in modern 40k, hes a Farseer who advises Robute Guilliman
They really needed that ½ point
It wasent really established. But. Sigmar was forming into the Lost primarch
Whaaaaaat?
That was fan theory and never close to official
Absolutely not star trek
Favourite Retcon is the bit where the Emperor is alive.
I miss things like this from when I first got into the hobby. Seriously takes me back.
I did not know that astropaths were space marines. Thought they were the weird people with the third eye?
They used to be. It was retconned
Third eye is Navigators, most astropaths are blind iirc
That’s right. Sorry. I was mistaken but either way I do not think either are space marines now.
This isnt a retcon anymore, everything is canon.
Also female Space Marines
That's not really a retcon though. The original two models sold poorly and they chose to discontinue them. That has nothing to do with lore changes.
And crazy tennis skills as well…
Squats being retconned into votann
Firstborn Space Marines!
Crazy how the used to have 1/2 points lol
I love the “been here the entire time” trope.
Way back in 1998* when Salamanders turned green. * Time not to scale