They aren't near as bad as their list makes them and have been aggressively average since September. I'd personally put them toward the top of D, they are pretty similar to DG and Drukahri.
Also it's worth keeping in mind some armies that are middling at the highest levels of competitive are actually quite solid in the middle tables and more casjal play. Knights in general are like that since they're such a stat check heavy army.
This is kind of what brought them down in the tier list lower than you might have expected (it started even lower, but they pushed it up a notch).
It was going on stats and even if the win rate is very average the number of tournament wins and overrep (high placings compared to number of players) were both in the bottom.
Keep in mind that this list was 85% done via metrics such as win rate, over rep, and event wins.
The tiers were:
Top 5 in multiple categories
Top 10 in multiple categories
Top 10 in a single category
In the middle
Bottom 10 in a category
Bottom 10 in multiple categories
Bottom 5 in multiple categories
Because how GW makes all the SM chapters and cosidering how many play them they never can be too good. Or at least basic SM can as they suffer from the success of divergent ones.
They need to implement something like a "Codex Compliant" rule for the vanilla chapters. It could give a 2nd Oath of Moment target and/or free AoC per turn. Or maybe something else.
Either way, I'll keep suggesting it because giving divergent chapters unrestricted access to everything from the Marine Codex with nothing special for Vanilla Marines is sillh. It means Vanilla Marines will at best be equal to, and most of the time weaker than Divergents.
The whole design was flawed. Even the Oath of Moment changes might not be enough.
Say GW said "Oath is reverted for codex marines only - reroll hits and wounds on the target". Would that be worth losing sword brethren and cheap multimeltas? Probably not. I'm not really sure how easily GW can fix it without instituting points differences for units.
If your codices are 100% permeable but only one way, you're never really going to have a situation where both are balanced against eachother.
I think the gap isn't as large as one may think. BTs are a bit overtuned. But an Oath of Moment reversion is a substantial boost to damage output against a priority target. It may not be a Sword Brethren Squad w Helbrect but you have the freedom to allocate that Oath across the battlefield.
Sadly, I think asking GW for points differences between the core faction and sub faction would be a bit of a stretch due to the added juggling of 2 pts costs for a given unit.
This just wasn't the case in 9th ed Most of the compliant chapters competed fine except for RG, and IF. They can begin to properly balance marine datasheets,cost and detachments once they put their foot down and cut off divergent chapters ability to use compliant detachments.
Eh? Space Marines were struggling for basically all of of 9th. That's mostly why Armour of Contempt was introduced. It was also why they got all free wargear and horde-like points costs towards the end.
As the other poster said, it's just better for the overall health of the game if SM are slightly below average in terms of power. If their win rate ever gets too high, it becomes suffocating.
Reminds me of that small window in 8th when Iron Hands were the bees knees and everyone was gnashing their teeth at the number of marine armies that came.oit of the wood work
My chaos knights just get worse and worse but I love them to death and will keep playing them! Rule of cool!
They aren't near as bad as their list makes them and have been aggressively average since September. I'd personally put them toward the top of D, they are pretty similar to DG and Drukahri.
Also it's worth keeping in mind some armies that are middling at the highest levels of competitive are actually quite solid in the middle tables and more casjal play. Knights in general are like that since they're such a stat check heavy army.
Agreed, I'd never put either knight faction in a S or A (and in this table B tier) because of that fact.
This is kind of what brought them down in the tier list lower than you might have expected (it started even lower, but they pushed it up a notch). It was going on stats and even if the win rate is very average the number of tournament wins and overrep (high placings compared to number of players) were both in the bottom.
Keep in mind that this list was 85% done via metrics such as win rate, over rep, and event wins. The tiers were: Top 5 in multiple categories Top 10 in multiple categories Top 10 in a single category In the middle Bottom 10 in a category Bottom 10 in multiple categories Bottom 5 in multiple categories
I’m mainly referring to Innes’s later one
Because how GW makes all the SM chapters and cosidering how many play them they never can be too good. Or at least basic SM can as they suffer from the success of divergent ones.
They need to implement something like a "Codex Compliant" rule for the vanilla chapters. It could give a 2nd Oath of Moment target and/or free AoC per turn. Or maybe something else. Either way, I'll keep suggesting it because giving divergent chapters unrestricted access to everything from the Marine Codex with nothing special for Vanilla Marines is sillh. It means Vanilla Marines will at best be equal to, and most of the time weaker than Divergents.
The whole design was flawed. Even the Oath of Moment changes might not be enough. Say GW said "Oath is reverted for codex marines only - reroll hits and wounds on the target". Would that be worth losing sword brethren and cheap multimeltas? Probably not. I'm not really sure how easily GW can fix it without instituting points differences for units. If your codices are 100% permeable but only one way, you're never really going to have a situation where both are balanced against eachother.
I think the gap isn't as large as one may think. BTs are a bit overtuned. But an Oath of Moment reversion is a substantial boost to damage output against a priority target. It may not be a Sword Brethren Squad w Helbrect but you have the freedom to allocate that Oath across the battlefield. Sadly, I think asking GW for points differences between the core faction and sub faction would be a bit of a stretch due to the added juggling of 2 pts costs for a given unit.
This just wasn't the case in 9th ed Most of the compliant chapters competed fine except for RG, and IF. They can begin to properly balance marine datasheets,cost and detachments once they put their foot down and cut off divergent chapters ability to use compliant detachments.
Eh? Space Marines were struggling for basically all of of 9th. That's mostly why Armour of Contempt was introduced. It was also why they got all free wargear and horde-like points costs towards the end. As the other poster said, it's just better for the overall health of the game if SM are slightly below average in terms of power. If their win rate ever gets too high, it becomes suffocating.
There was a short window when eradicators first released where they were quite dominant
Reminds me of that small window in 8th when Iron Hands were the bees knees and everyone was gnashing their teeth at the number of marine armies that came.oit of the wood work
Data is not a true representation of army power. World Eaters and Orks both should be higher!
Disregard data and information. Acquire skulls and daka
The fact guard is in C tier when the WR is tanked by people refusing to play whats actually busted is insane
ROFL