ADMECH ABOVE 1% PLAY RATE LET'S GOOOOOO *sees win%* Well at least that part checks out

I played Ad Mech twice this weekend and made sure the win both games, so I'm doing my part to help you guys get the buffs you desperately need!

Sadly I brought it up slightly

You do your best but GW has neither the will, nor the ability to fix us. They're talking about new rules when the datasheets are the issue, so are trying to build upon an unsound foundation. Let's be generous and say they did spend post codex gathering data. Well they've had three months since then and came up with nothing. Finally, with how thoroughly they excised the identity of the army from the book, it'd be very hard to conceive of any fix actually being admech in anything but name. They may make the book competitive if we get very lucky, but there's no way they take this chassis and dehordify it or return it to something resembling admech.

Silver lining is, at least they are acknowledging ad mech have a problem. They don't appear to be admitting that about nids

They've acknowledged it for the past three videos. So that doesn't carry much weight. I just have no clue what this balance team is thinking when the meta was that healthy they didn't focus their efforts on the armies at the bottom that were outside their winrate target.

I agree. Apparently nids, who sat below Ad Mech in terms of both tournament wins and win rate, were fine just getting internal balance points changes. As AoW guys put it, the worst nids lists are now worse while lists nobody used are now better, but not to the point they expect them to overtake the previous best lists. I was expecting so much more from the last slate. It was so disappointing, even ignoring the lack of updates to the bottom factions, does anyone believe when GW says that armies like DW, IK, CK or daemons didn't need changes for internal or external balance reasons?

I mean, I think it was because this was a points only update, which they stated they would do every other data slate. Obviously those other factions need more help than just points. I’m a CK player and while it would be nice to have gotten some points drops on our big knights, what they need most is data slate changes, not just repeated points drops. So they left them as is because we can maintain 49% win rate with dog spam, so externally, our balance was ok enough to leave alone for now until the next rules dataslate in summer. Just my 2c. Should they have done more this slate with those factions? Sure. Are they sticking with their stated plan of only making significant rules changes in the summer and winter slates? Also yes.

Thing is they shafted AdMech from the original schedule in January for arbitrary reasons And they already bent this schedule for arbitrary reasons to help DG and Votann (and VERY lightly admech since they didn't want to change things ahead of codex) There's so little cost in having a slate update specifically adressing the two factions (one too good, one too bad) that were ignored in the January slate instead of letting them rot for half a year AdMech has been hot garbage to play with or against since tenth released and the codex only made its glaring design issues worse, the faction has been left to disappear *for a full year* Last week there were only 2 admech players out of 800+ recorded players for meta monday, doing something is absolutely urgent at that point and making budget lists more horde is not remotely close to qualifying as something

Agreed, they could have, and probably should have just touched a couple factions. It seems like they took the stance of “if we bend the schedule every time, then people will expect us to do it every time,” and they just didn’t do it at all to stay true to their schedule. Not that it’s obviously working out for the worst factions, but that was apparently their decision. I just hope they get it right in august….though I’m doubtful.

Same here unfortunately...

Admech are in the worst position a 40k army has ever been "Admitting they have a problem" is the most empty and vapid of things they could possibly have done 

"The problem is the players won't go away, we even tried to warn them that we consider their faction a joke by giving them Stilt Boy"

Nids really need to have buffs, but at the same time spore mines should get the drone treatment and be just tokens instead of units.

I don't disagree, it's a real feels bad to have to spawn and score with a unit in the same game to scrape a 2-3 result. It feels really sweaty to have to do that only for you to still lose 60% of your games. But losing it without a replacement would just kill the faction.

Apparently, more millionares are getting into comp 40k, lol.

*former millionaires

Good thing we got that points drop on ruststalkers, eh? ...I'm just really disappointed in GW at this point. They've had half a year to fix the codex, and almost a year to fix the faction. They said this winter they were working on it, but just keep kicking the can. But, hey, at least we're "not supposed to be a horde army," eh?

You’re forgetting 90% of 9th edition which we spent in the gutter in penance for 10mins of broken glory. Our problems extend well beyond the last 6 months. 9th codex was good. Dataslate was trash after trash after trash. 10th index was sub-trash, codex surpassed all expectations (in that people thought it couldn’t possibly get worse, then it did)

We were a bad army for most of 9th, but at least we were thematic and fun. Now we've got nothing

Agree I did like the theme in 9th. Tech priest boost power is a lovely style for me. I was so hyped when I read about leaders in 10th previews thought “this is made for us”… then it all just went so wrong

"Also with how bad generic Ironstorm is doing is it the detachment or the special units that are carrying that detachment?" I think it's more that the competitive players go for DA and BT as a base if they wanna play ironstorm, because why wouldn't they? These are of course completely made up numbers, but say that the special characters or extra meltas might add a couple of % on the vanilla marines, but that a more experienced or skilled player could easily add the remaining 10-20% win rate compared to someone that plays the game more casually.

Absolutely. The difference between DA Ironstorm and generic Ironstrom is almost non-existent, certainly less than 2-3% win rate contributor. But since everyone competitive chooses DA over generic, it ends up skewing the win rate by 40% - which is the difference between DA Ironstorm at 78% and generic Ironstorm at 38%.

I was at the Deckbox GT above and played the top Blood Angels list. What did it for him, aside from all the rerolls was the land raider redeemer and it's rediculously good twin flamer. 2d6+6, torrent, S6, Ap2, 2D with a giant zone of overwatch control. It's disruptive, tough, and a threat you just can't ignore. Every Space Marine or Grey Knight list had at least one of those

I've unironically wondered how 2/3 redeemer lists don't just stomp their way to top placings with how ridiculous they are

Many armies can 1 shot those land raiders, they're tough, but not overly so. Plus they tie up a lot of your points.

The only thing stopping it is Necrons and Canoptic Doomstalkers with full re-rerolls. They just melt everything, including vehciles and at a greater range than the redeemer's flamers. It's not cooincidence the top 2 at the GT I was at were both Necrons and both fielded at least 2 Doomstalkers. The just get to sit back and melt the table without having to move them. It's not interactive or fun to play against, but that's always the top tables.

And people are worried about greentide. That redeemer is going to cream Boyz.

Yeah, why would people play Ironstorm when they can play Ironstrom+ that comes with all the same rules with a few optional extras.

god I hope DA lose access to Ironstorm and get actual buffs to our units and detachments 

How did GSC wind up in first over an undefeated Blood Angels list?

GSC did go 5-0 , cant post the screenshot of BCP. Op just made a typo. I played at salt

Ah okay, got it

I'm just surprised gsc won an event. Everyone keeps saying they are a bit naff, but recent weeks have had a few high placing gsc players. Does anybody have that winning list to share?

GSC have the Thousand Sons issue of "an average GSC player and a great GSC player are playing 2 completely different armies", but they're not as good as Thousand Sons so its even more exacerbated

I'm currently building a gsc army so absorbing as much as I can as I know I'm gonna lose first 20 or so games before I even start to figure them out. Almost at 2k points, then I can start meta chasing a bit.

Good luck! really cool faction, think you'll enjoy them a lot

I can check it later today. The main problem with GSC is that the faction rule is so damn swingy. Most games have something like 2-4 really important rolls for Cult Ambush. Each is a single D6 between 3+ and 5+ with zero ways to influence the rolls. If you roll hot you will practically play a 2000p battle with a 3000p army, And if you roll badly on those few rolls, you will play with an army that is priced for being able to resurrect, but doesn't :-/ The impact of Cult Ambush is so random, and much bigger then what can be compensated for with skill or good planning. "Grats, you actually managed to destroy my 380p of Aberrants. Oh look at that, I rolled a 5. And this is my fight phase, so you will see them again in two phases." Also, GSC is an extremely hard to play faction with tons of tricks and a million things to evaluate for every little choice. But many of those tricks are very rock-paper-scissors against certain matchups, and the effectivenes of many of them can be mitigated by an experienced opponent. So GSC tends to do very good at the medium skill tables, because average GSC players knows a lot more tricks than what average opponent's knows to protect against. Now and then we do win tournaments, but that requires at least avoiding bad luck with both matchups and Cult Ambush, maybe even being somewhat lucky with them.

Yeah, as a GSC player, while the Cult Ambush reinforcements are fluffy, I really hate how swingy they get. I'd much rather have a "These units all respawn once" army rule. Or just make the army rule a deepstrike synergy (like the current detachment rule) and come up with other detachment rules. Having everything be more expensive than it would be for other armies because it *might* respawn is kinda feels-bad wether it works or not (just for a different player).

“Having everything be more expensive than it would be for other armies because it might respawn is kinda feels-bad wether it works or not (just for a different player).” Necrons: first time?

And then *everything* is still expensive, but they nerf everything related to your faction rule while giving out boosted detachment rules. Just want my Warriors to not get wiped by S5 Blast spam but whatev GW.

Completely agree. I really like that cult ambush works as a kind of handicap system. Players who are new to GSC will lose more units, and will thus get more units recycled. And 4AE knows that the learning curve for GSC is absolutely horrible, so anything to smooth the path for new recruits is welcome. I would like to see some kind of resource-system where each destroyed unit gives the player a couple of "Reinforcement Points" and goes into Cult Ambush. Then each unit costs a couple more reinforcements points to set up again. Non-battleline units, big units, strong units all cost more reinforcement points.

I haven't played GSC, but it reminds me of every game against world eaters. Kill Angron, and it's always like "Whelp if he rezzes, I'm going to lose, but if he doesn't, I probably win." Having a mini-heart attack every turn my opponent plays yahtzee isn't fun lol

Yeah, that is just the same effect. It is bad game design!

Piloted by Ryan Verbeck at 2024 St. Louis Annual Last Minute Tournament (SALT) This is a very GSC list! Seven Battleline units means that Cult Ambush becomes less swingy. Trading that for no Abberants, so the survivability it has is due to recycling 70 Neophytes and 30 Acolytes. (Because heavier hulls are rising in the meta, optimised lists will have less tools to handle infantry hordes.) I like it a lot! I can guess how it _typically_ plays. But there is a fair bit of flexibility depending on how the opponent's list and missions look. Probably Tactical secondaries. The Iconward and one big unit of Neophytes are in the Cunning Congaliners formation. Meaning that they deploy in a 55+" line right in front of the opponent's deployment zone. This stops infiltrators, and they can be moved with the Primus reposition ability later. Or left as a 260p sacrifice that blocks scout moves and anything non-flying, except maybe an aggressively deployed Cerastus Lancer that advances. (and GSC would honestly _love_ to have a knight alone on an objective in the middle 😁 ) World Eaters, Orks, Space Wolves, Votann and so on hates the Cunnig Congaliners. Two Acolyte units with Primuses in Deep Strike. One unit of Acolytes and one Reductus Saboteur in the Truck. Using Rapid Ingress to dump so many Demo Charges (with Fire Support!) and Mortal wounds on a deserving target. Catachans are trading pieces, move blockers and action monkeys. One Primus and the Nexos with one unit of Neophytes. These are kept our of trouble and recycled through Return to the Shadows every turn. The rest of the Neophytes deep strike, screen out, sit on objectives to create CPs and regenerate models. Something like that. Warning: I have no idea what the youtube link goes to. It was included as the name of the list. So prepare to be rickrolled... at best ;-) https://youtu.be/nqWZqQXk_Ao?si=82AHhPZ4WWOOP0Uw (2000 points) Genestealer Cults Strike Force (2000 points) Ascension Day CHARACTERS Acolyte Iconward (80 points) • 1x Autopistol 1x Cult claws • Enhancement: Inscrutable Cunning Nexos (60 points) • 1x Autopistol 1x Close combat weapon Primus (90 points) • 1x Cult bonesword 1x Scoped needle pistol 1x Toxin injector claw Primus (90 points) • 1x Cult bonesword 1x Scoped needle pistol 1x Toxin injector claw Primus (90 points) • 1x Cult bonesword 1x Scoped needle pistol 1x Toxin injector claw Reductus Saboteur (65 points) • 1x Autopistol 1x Close combat weapon 1x Demolition charges 1x Remote explosives Reductus Saboteur (80 points) • Warlord • 1x Autopistol 1x Close combat weapon 1x Demolition charges 1x Remote explosives • Enhancement: Prowling Agitant BATTLELINE Acolyte Hybrids (170 points) • 1x Acolyte Leader • 1x Hand flamer 1x Leader’s cult weapons • 9x Acolyte Hybrid • 1x Cult Icon 9x Cult claws and knife 4x Demolition charges 4x Hand flamer Acolyte Hybrids (170 points) • 1x Acolyte Leader • 1x Hand flamer 1x Leader’s cult weapons • 9x Acolyte Hybrid • 1x Cult Icon 9x Cult claws and knife 4x Demolition charges 4x Hand flamer Acolyte Hybrids (170 points) • 1x Acolyte Leader • 1x Hand flamer 1x Leader’s cult weapons • 9x Acolyte Hybrid • 1x Cult Icon 9x Cult claws and knife 4x Demolition charges 4x Hand flamer Neophyte Hybrids (90 points) • 1x Neophyte Leader • 1x Autopistol 1x Close combat weapon 1x Hybrid firearm • 9x Neophyte Hybrid • 9x Autopistol 9x Close combat weapon 1x Cult Icon 2x Grenade launcher 5x Hybrid firearm 2x Seismic cannon Neophyte Hybrids (180 points) • 1x Neophyte Leader • 1x Autopistol 1x Close combat weapon 1x Hybrid firearm • 19x Neophyte Hybrid • 19x Autopistol 19x Close combat weapon 1x Cult Icon 4x Grenade launcher 11x Hybrid firearm 4x Seismic cannon Neophyte Hybrids (180 points) • 1x Neophyte Leader • 1x Autopistol 1x Close combat weapon 1x Hybrid firearm • 19x Neophyte Hybrid • 19x Autopistol 19x Close combat weapon 1x Cult Icon 4x Grenade launcher 11x Hybrid firearm 4x Seismic cannon Neophyte Hybrids (180 points) • 1x Neophyte Leader • 1x Autopistol 1x Close combat weapon 1x Hybrid firearm • 19x Neophyte Hybrid • 19x Autopistol 19x Close combat weapon 1x Cult Icon 4x Grenade launcher 11x Hybrid firearm 4x Seismic cannon DEDICATED TRANSPORTS Goliath Truck (110 points) • 1x Demolition charge cache 1x Goliath wheels 1x Heavy stubber 1x Twin autocannon OTHER DATASHEETS Achilles Ridgerunners (85 points) • 1x Heavy mortar 1x Ridgerunner wheels 1x Spotter 1x Twin heavy stubber ALLIED UNITS Catachan Jungle Fighters (55 points) • 1x Jungle Fighter Sergeant • 1x Close combat weapon 1x Laspistol • 9x Jungle Fighter • 9x Close combat weapon 2x Flamer 7x Lasgun 1x Vox-caster Catachan Jungle Fighters (55 points) • 1x Jungle Fighter Sergeant • 1x Close combat weapon 1x Laspistol • 9x Jungle Fighter • 9x Close combat weapon 2x Flamer 7x Lasgun 1x Vox-caster

Thankyou for the list and breakdown. That is an awful lot of bodies! Why does gsc have to be so damn expensive!

At least we can easily kitbash most of our characters. That saves a lot of money. It's a kind of merit that we have the best Battleline units in the game, but it makes for boring lists! Hopefully there will be some more options for useful lists after the Codex.

Are you sure the acolytes are in the truck ? Seems kinda of waste the are wounding most things on a 3. They won’t have a primus or any buffs so hitting on a 5. I think the 10 neophytes are maybe in the truck

logo Format inspected: @2024-04-21T13:12:58+00:00 2024 St. Louis Annual Last Minute Tournament (SALT) Ryan Verbeck https://youtu.be/nqWZqQXk_Ao?si=82AHhPZ4WWOOP0Uw (2000 points) Genestealer Cults Strike Force (2000 points) Ascension Day CHARACTERS Acolyte Iconward (80 points) • 1x Autopistol 1x Cult claws • Enhancement: Inscrutable Cunning Nexos (60 points) • 1x Autopistol 1x Close combat weapon Primus (90 points) • 1x Cult bonesword 1x Scoped needle pistol 1x Toxin injector claw Primus (90 points) • 1x Cult bonesword 1x Scoped needle pistol 1x Toxin injector claw Primus (90 points) • 1x Cult bonesword 1x Scoped needle pistol 1x Toxin injector claw Reductus Saboteur (65 points) • 1x Autopistol 1x Close combat weapon 1x Demolition charges 1x Remote explosives Reductus Saboteur (80 points) • Warlord • 1x Autopistol 1x Close combat weapon 1x Demolition charges 1x Remote explosives • Enhancement: Prowling Agitant BATTLELINE Acolyte Hybrids (170 points) • 1x Acolyte Leader • 1x Hand flamer 1x Leader’s cult weapons • 9x Acolyte Hybrid • 1x Cult Icon 9x Cult claws and knife 4x Demolition charges 4x Hand flamer Acolyte Hybrids (170 points) • 1x Acolyte Leader • 1x Hand flamer 1x Leader’s cult weapons • 9x Acolyte Hybrid • 1x Cult Icon 9x Cult claws and knife 4x Demolition charges 4x Hand flamer Acolyte Hybrids (170 points) • 1x Acolyte Leader • 1x Hand flamer 1x Leader’s cult weapons • 9x Acolyte Hybrid • 1x Cult Icon 9x Cult claws and knife 4x Demolition charges 4x Hand flamer Neophyte Hybrids (90 points) • 1x Neophyte Leader • 1x Autopistol 1x Close combat weapon 1x Hybrid firearm • 9x Neophyte Hybrid • 9x Autopistol 9x Close combat weapon 1x Cult Icon 2x Grenade launcher 5x Hybrid firearm 2x Seismic cannon Neophyte Hybrids (180 points) • 1x Neophyte Leader • 1x Autopistol 1x Close combat weapon 1x Hybrid firearm • 19x Neophyte Hybrid • 19x Autopistol 19x Close combat weapon 1x Cult Icon 4x Grenade launcher 11x Hybrid firearm 4x Seismic cannon Neophyte Hybrids (180 points) • 1x Neophyte Leader • 1x Autopistol 1x Close combat weapon 1x Hybrid firearm • 19x Neophyte Hybrid • 19x Autopistol 19x Close combat weapon 1x Cult Icon 4x Grenade launcher 11x Hybrid firearm 4x Seismic cannon Neophyte Hybrids (180 points) • 1x Neophyte Leader • 1x Autopistol 1x Close combat weapon 1x Hybrid firearm • 19x Neophyte Hybrid • 19x Autopistol 19x Close combat weapon 1x Cult Icon 4x Grenade launcher 11x Hybrid firearm 4x Seismic cannon DEDICATED TRANSPORTS Goliath Truck (110 points) • 1x Demolition charge cache 1x Goliath wheels 1x Heavy stubber 1x Twin autocannon OTHER DATASHEETS Achilles Ridgerunners (85 points) • 1x Heavy mortar 1x Ridgerunner wheels 1x Spotter 1x Twin heavy stubber ALLIED UNITS Catachan Jungle Fighters (55 points) • 1x Jungle Fighter Sergeant • 1x Close combat weapon 1x Laspistol • 9x Jungle Fighter • 9x Close combat weapon 2x Flamer 7x Lasgun 1x Vox-caster Catachan Jungle Fighters (55 points) • 1x Jungle Fighter Sergeant • 1x Close combat weapon 1x Laspistol • 9x Jungle Fighter • 9x Close combat weapon 2x Flamer 7x Lasgun 1x Vox-caster Exported with App Version: v1.12.0 (40), Data Version:

Please don't apologize for posting one day late and thank you for doing this every week ! <3

Agreed! You do the community a huge service and you have our thanks!

44 rounds at high noon. Damn that's some commitment

We played through tornadoes touching down too! 

I take it none of these events are with the new points right?

Not yet

Dice Goblin did.

Dark angels Codex detachments put up a 30% winrate this week despite the faction overall being the #1 this week

GW repeatedly shoots themselves in the foot every edition with how divergent and codex marines are balanced. I do wonder if they will ever find a way to balance them properly

They just need to be kept separate. There’s no reason not to. If a Hellblaster is worth more in DA than UM then it should cost more in DA. Keeping them separate means they can be balanced separately, instead of this constant thing of units that are bad in 90% of chapters being made even worse because they just so happen to be broken in DA or BA etc.

>there’s no reason not to Not really true - if they keep them totally separate, they have to reprint the entire SM codex seven different times and anytime they make an adjustment to their rules it has to be done in every book. Same with new units. They did this in 8th and it was a pain in the ass. Personally I think the solution is to just lock chapter specific units to their own detachments and give everyone access to Gladius. That way a DA player could still play as Ironstorm or whatever but they’d have to do it with only codex units. With actual DA units included they’d have to use either Gladius or one of the supplement detachments.

This is the sensible solution and would make the data more meaningful.

Or you could just make it so any SM unit written in the DA balance sheet uses those points, and all others use core SM. You’d only have to list a handful of extra data sheets. Or just say if your army consists only of Vanilla SM all your infantry units have a 5pt reduction in cost or something

The divergent chapters do not need to have all the generic space marine datasheets. Just like how Death Guard, World Eaters and Thousand Sons don't have access to all the chaos space marines data sheets. You can just pick ~10 thematic units and add them to each divergent chapters codex.

Ignore the lore, you're missing the simplest, most basic thing out there. Marine players buy models. All the time. It's scary how every unit is just bought on the spot. "Desolation marines are so ugly" - from the same dude buying 3 boxes. Snowflake marine players seem to buy even more. Why would GW cut off that revenue source? Sorry DA players, turns out you don't actually use gladiators? Sorry BT lads, no more aggressors. Snowflake chapters will retain every unit as long as GW believes those players will buy the extra models. Anything else is pointless to discuss.

Well that doesn’t really fit the lore - the way Blood Angels for example play on the table is way different than their lore - lorewise their only divergence from codex organization is death company. DA is more or less compliant outside of first and second companies. SW are much different but they’ve also always had essentially a complete duplicate roster of firstborn units. The other issue is practical, which is that GW wants to sell marines and telling lovers of multiple of their most popular chapters that they don’t get access to most of the codex is a bad sales decision

Isn't the whole point of different detachments that units that don't shine in the generic one can be great in the more specialized ones? If they are then higher priced in the specialized ones doesn't it just make the unit "meh!" in every detachment? What I will say is that GW has a history of, when an epic hero makes a unit great, lump any points nerfs onto the unit instead of the epic hero.

The point is that they can be balanced separately so that, ideally, they have a place in both generic and specialized detachments. I

With more than a hundred different Marine datasheets, I just don't think that's realistic. What I think we'd end up with is that Unit A is the best regardless of detachment, and that Units B, C and D are underperforming in every detachment.

It’s entirely realistic if GW used just a bit of its massive uptick in revenue the past few years to hire some more rules writers. They’re already doing balance passes that take into account thousands of datasheets across different factions. Doing just a few extra points adjustments across marine datasheets and detachments is comparatively not that big a task on top.

They'll invert the wardian balance approach make everything suck really bad so nothing stands out

They wont… my play group have been trying to think of how to help our DA Detachments, but everytime we think of something we realise it’d be broken in Gladius / Ironstorm. Wanna buff DWK / Inner Circle Companions? Have to remember they could be used in Gladius with Advance+Charge, Fallback+Charge, and Lance with +1AP on the Charge. Same for Black Knights - they *could* be given Fire Discipline so you cant make them much better. It’s a mess…

Sorry I'm not a DA player but one of my friend is struggling at the moment. Is there a place where I can look up how this army/list plays out?? Cheers

Join the Dark Angels Competitive FB group, there’s some good stuff on there occassionally. Also the Inner Circle Discord.

Dice Goblin used the new custodes/ork codexes with MFM points. They also used Tau codex with codex points. I know this will screw up your metrics, so wanted to point it out.

Thanks, I’ll have to fix the numbers next week and I’m excited to see how their numbers differ now

> Also with how bad generic Ironstorm is doing is it the detachment or the special units that are carrying that detachment? I think it's very likely that the causation is somewhat reversed. I.e. it's not so much a case of sub-faction choice affecting win rates as much as it's a case of a player's likelihood to win affecting which sub-factions they are likely to choose. "Good" players tend to flow to "good" factions. But this effect is likely *much* more pronounced for SM, internally, than across the game in general. Flowing from Imperial Fists to Dark Angels is much, much easier than from, say, Eldar to Tau. The special units *are* powerful. If we forced 100 randomly selected players to play Ironstorm with plain vanilla SM and another 100 random players to play French vanilla SM, the latter group would have a higher win rate. But the difference would likely not be this extreme. Because that's not what's actually happening. "Codex SM players" and "Players who are trying their best to win" are just very likely *not the same population*. It's not that individual Imperial Fist players aren't trying to win their games. Of course they are. It's the fact that anyone playing Imperial Fists Ironstorm has made a choice to prioritize "playing Imperial Fists" higher than "winning". Anyone playing yellow Dark Angels Ironstorm has made the *opposite* choice. There's nothing inherently wrong with either choice. But, in all likelihood, players who make the latter choice will, as a group, tend to have more tournament succes (i.e. win more). We're not looking at the win rates for: * Random players - playing with stronger rules * Random players - playing with weaker rules We're looking at win rates for: * Players that are *more* likely to be succesful - playing with stronger rules * Players that are *less* likely to be succesful - playing with weaker rules

You put this together much more eloquently than I managed to do. I think this is exactly it.

To you, the day that Meta Monday graced your Reddit was the most important day of your week. But for him, it was Tuesday.

CSM with four 4-1 placements this week, now that's what we love to see. Keep fighting the Long War brothers. Anyone have any of the lists for them?

I'm going to go out on a limb and guess this 4-1 list is not what people are expecting to see, and I'm really excited to do a writeup of the event at Warphammer later this week. 10 Traitor Guard 10 Traitor Guard 10 Traitor Guard Land Raider Land Raider Land Raider Abaddon Helbrute 5 Warp Talons 5 Warp Talons 3x3 Nurglings

30 Traitor Guardsmen in 3 Land Raiders?! ***Holy Mother of Based.***

I played the "mirror" versus Guard. I like to imagine the Guardsmen rolling up in Chimeras saw my Guardsmen rolling up in freaking Land Raiders and started realizing that their God is a lot less powerful than ours haha

Wow, nice. Is it a variation on the Abaddon tank castle with Land Raiders instead of vindicators/predators? And why the traitor guard over cultists, just for the extra OC?

Extra OC and their guns can actually do damage

Wow! Really interesting list!

Based af lol. I love it

I did because I’m in the discord… 😬

Given their win rate consistently hovering around 45% or lower since the dataslate, I expect it to be a fluke? Some sort of anti-meta list or maybe something to take advantage of terrain rules for those events.

Possibly, I just like to see what they're running and see if they've worked out any synergies I haven't thought of. These tournies I assume are with the old points rather than the new so I'm not expecting to see anything too new there.

I own thousand sons but have been playing tyranids since the start of the edition, I need to switch back for a tournament in a few months. I'm noticing a lot of thousand sons lists are taking like 6+ characters, anyone have any insights as to how you don't just give up max assassinate?

From my experience on the other side of the table, it's by killing anything that can threaten your characters before they can kill them.

The issue with fixed is always "whats the second" so if your list only gives up 1 for free its allright. Especially when you cant live without.

I'm not much of a competitive player but i do play quite a lot vs thousand sons. I think most of your opponent lists are not built to use fixed and a lot of armies need the extra cp. Honestly tho the right answer might be "who care?", maybe you give max on assassinate but they are so goddamn good that you don't care, just table your opponent and get points after!

Thousand sons damage output is so high and magnus is such a threat magnet while being super durable that you can just get away with it. Plus giving up assassination is not nothing but most armies aren’t built for fixed and won’t have a plan for that second secondary

It really doesn’t matter. 1k sons characters are hard to kill, and the army puts out incredible damage. Fixed is generally a trap - easy to play around

Guard stormed the beaches of Normandy, eh?

Yeah that guard list is pretty standard, the one at squig city is much crazier, with vanquishers; and bombast field guns; also the stats are wrong for that event, guard went 4-0-1, and so did the third place necrons. They did not go 5-0.

With Ratlings! Char1: 4x Platoon Command Squad (60 pts) Char2: 1x Tank Commander (220 pts): Enhancement: Grand Strategist (+15 pts) Char3: 1x Tank Commander (205 pts) Char4: 1x Lord Solar Leontus (125 pts) Char5: 1x Ursula Creed (55 pts) 10x Death Korps of Krieg (65 pts) 6x Bullgryn Squad 6x Bullgryn Squad 10x Kasrkin (100 pts) 10x Kasrkin (100 pts) 1x Basilisk (135 pts) 1x Basilisk (135 pts) 1x Manticore (180 pts) 1x Manticore (180 pts) 1x Scout Sentinels (60 pts) 5x Ratling Snipers (60 pts)

Well cannot say I'm surprised by that list. It's about as meta as guard can get. It's also gone up 130 points in the latest round of nerfs

I’m new to competitive, I’m assuming the list that won was legal because the changes happened literally the week before?

Pretty typical for tournaments to not incorporate changes week of release.

Yeah, that is right. Tournaments typically have a cut off date a couple of days or a week or so before the tournament. That is the date when all army lists must be handed in to the organisers. The most common praxis is to play with the game in the state it is at the cut off date, including points costs and balance updates etc. So this coming weekend we will see the first tournaments using the new points costs.

Somehow guard get nerfed harder than crons while maintaining a less than 50% wr the last 6 months lol

6 months? Guard *never* broke 50% WR on rolling average in 10th edition. The occasional spike? Sure. But on average? Reached 48% *tops*.

The kasrkin nerf really has me scratching my head. A 20% nerf to a unit would have you believe that this unit was single handedly destroying the game. Wraithguard got nerfed 18% Nightbringer only 15% Wraith blobs went up 10% I genuinely have a hard time believing kasrkin were breaking the game harder than any of these units

The silly gut reaction is "GW doesn't like Guard winning, ever". It's silly, of course: I doubt it's actually true. It's more likely that GW just really dislikes units getting used *everywhere*, no matter how strong the faction using it is, but that doesn't explain Leontus being untouched.

Leontus getting nerfed would just be a feel bad because while yes you can run lists without him, he is a big reason why a lot of guard lists even work, especially with a really bad detachment rule that benefits vehicles that get point costs raised every point adjustment.

I'd be okay with that if it was a universal law across army balance lol 3 redemptor dreads + 2 gladiators is the start of every ironstorm list (that statistically does better). You don't see that list going up 130pts cause they play their staple units. I'm just really disheartened by the guard changes cause it feels like they have an "intended" way to play the army (using the bad russes) and continue to nerf anything that deviates from that. We lost 50pt scout sentinels, kasrkin, sorta bullgryn, cheaper krieg blobs, baneblades, and probably more that I'm forgetting.. and none of these were problematic. Nerf the arty but let us still play the game please. Also if leontus gets nerfed the army just falls apart. He's already not a good unit imo. He's either 125 pts and doesn't play the game but requires you to play arty or a 250pt sink that doesn't really contribute aside from getting guard units that cost the same, or more, than other factions to hit on the same that those other factions do

i think it's not quite right to think about it in terms of percent 2man sisters crusader squads went from 25 to 35, thats a 40% increase, does that make it the biggest nerf in the dataslate? not really...

and Necrons saw a hard drop even before the MFM points went into effect 🤔

I will take a wild guess and say that every Ironstorm list is the same type of list copy pasted with slightly different special characters. The state of loyalist Space Marines is honestly sad, the codex chapters are not played because they don’t bring anything to the table and the non codex chapters are not really played because they are just the same list as the regular SM list but with an additional unique character. Lock the non codex chapters from the codex detachements and they are dead competitively, don’t do anything and the codex chapters will suck for the rest of the edition. It’s a lose-lose situation that would require a lot of rewriting to be properly solved without kneecapping half of the SM playerbase

Well Blood angels are winning with SOS, so they aren't the same as other SM chapter lists.

It’s really the +2 strength on the charge that is boosting them. Combined with a butt load of jump bodies they can just swarm and tag you very quickly.

Don't ignore the +1 attack on the charge either. For things like thunder hammers or powerfists with 3 attacks that's a massive 33% damage increase in the charge. Strength boost now being +2 is of course also excellent. Hits lots of those important break points (str 6 and str 10 especially).

Oh yeah lol. The +1 attack completely slipped from my mind but yes you are correct!!!

Also - Death Company. A bunch of bodies, either with Jumppacks or footslogging, with Power fists and Inferno pistols. It's just brutal.

It’s the same issue though with blood angels as with Templar’s compared with codex chapters. They can run jump death company assault Intercessors and regular jump Intercessors because they get extra datasheets. Templars can run 6 repulsor ex’s because they get BT RepEx datasheets. They are literally Marines++. My blue armor blood ravens are dark angels with Azrael because his datasheet is cool, but they are not green and I don’t call him Azrael. I just use his rules. There’s no point to the codex chapters because iron hands and white scars literally only have one unique datasheet each and Azrael is wayyyyy better than korsorro khan or iron father feirros.

Honestly if the non codex marines are crap without the codex detachments (BA aren’t but they’re the exception) then that’s all the more reason to lock them into their terrible detachments so that GW will actually look at those detachments and do something about them. So long as GW can look at “Dark Angels” and “Space Wolves” in top 10’s they’re not going to bother fixing any of those terrible rules in their codex/index.

But GW won’t do anything then, that’s the problem. GW doesn’t change things that can’t be fixed in one universal rule or with point decreases once the codex has been released. Once the codex is printed the rules are pretty much set in stone for the reminder of the edition unless the codex is so obnoxiously awful that they have to make an entirely new second one mid edition to fix the first one. Once again, locking non codex marines out of codex detachements would make them suck for the rest of the edition and would require too much work from GW to fix. The "best" case scenario is that they don’t do anything and Ironstorm stays the best SM detachement for everyone with no competition for the entire edition and regular SM codex characters get massively under costed to compensate and the "worst" case scenario is that they lock non codex SM to their own detachements and leave them in a pitiful state for the rest of the edition.

They’ve said there’s rules changes coming to Admech who have a codex. Just because GW hasn’t done it before doesn’t mean we shouldn’t do our best to drag them kicking and screaming into the 21st century and update rules online and in the app they already have.

The supposed admech change likely isn't going to fix them. Their issues are wide ranging, but the vast majority if it comes down to datasheets. Just about everything in the book would have to see an editors pen to get fixed, so stacking more rules on an unsound foundation isn't going to magically fix matters

Righteous Crusade see play, granted not too the extent of GTF or Ironstorm but gets results. Honestly, a good solution won't come any time soon. It requires way too much work and overhaul, which I don't think GW will invest on.

Disagree from a Black Templars perspective. Have stuck with Righteous Crusaders all edition and it's been very fun. I can win or at least compete with ANY faction and list I play. Redeemers paired with Sword Brothers are a great equalizer, but I think melee is in a really good spot if your movement is on point.

Nope, I won Frontier open with 3 Combi LTs and 4 Repulsor Executioners.

I feel like this is just Space Marines getting treated like a regular faction like everyone else instead of being on a pedestal that gets special treatment for picking a color.

But they are not a regular faction and that’s a problem. Non codex SM have just as much or sometimes more unique units than the god specific Chaos Marines and yet they don’t get their own codex because their special units were never designed to fulfill all the needed roles in an army. WE, TS and DG are not "CSM but better", they are completely different armies with different rules and different point costs. DA, SW, BA, BT and DW don’t get that, they are strictly treated as "SM but better" and it’s not a sustainable nor balanced system. GW should have made them proper codices with their own separate entries for the most common SM units (Intercessors, Eradicators etc), that would have made balancing so much easier but it's not what we got

It is just not something they may want to do from a business point of view, they sell models first and foremost. I was a supported of your idea to make divergent chapters similar to chaos, but the issue is that this require a lot of resources and it was not in the original plan for the edition. Furthermore, marines are the cash cow of GW, if I play Black Tenplars and I see inceptors and for some reason I can't use them, let say they limited what I can't take as an example, that is money I am not spending. If I can play a specific detachment that I had in mind and considering how massive and hyper specialized the range is, this seal away possible purchases. I am 100% sure they rather make things difficult than remove the "choice" all together for their best selling line.

Most other factions have a number of named characters in different subfactions that didn't get the SM faction treatment. They're treated like one homogeneous blob despite the fact that, lorewise, they'd be just as diverse as marine chapters. I understand this is a downside for marines, but it still comes from the root cause of marine chapters thinking they all need bespoke rules with unique representation. There's also a hole in your proposal for differently-statted marine units - GW has seen that it's a problem in the casual community when two identical units have arbitrarily different stats. (e.g., loyalists complaining about chaos land raiders towards the end of last edition.) Players don't want disparity with their favorite unit randomly being better in one chapter over another. Personally, I'd like to see "non-codex compliant" chapters folded back into the core marine codex. Primaris, for all their malignment, would have been a perfect opportunity for that, but it's an opportunity wasted with all the bespoke units those chapters have gotten back. (This goes for cult legions folding back into CSM as well, but that pandora's box is open now, too.)

So I won the Frontier Open, and while it was technically Templar Ironstorm, it was unique to abuse our last event doing Player Placed terrain. Every unit in the army gives up a kill secondary haha 😆. 1,2,3,4 I declare a Repulsor War (Is this what they meant by building your list for fixed?) (2000 Points) Space Marines Black Templars Ironstorm Spearhead Strike Force (2000 Points) CHARACTERS High Marshal Helbrecht (120 Points) • 1x Ferocity 1x Sword of the High Marshals Lieutenant with Combi-weapon (70 Points) • 1x Combi-weapon 1x Paired combat blades Lieutenant with Combi-weapon (70 Points) • 1x Combi-weapon 1x Paired combat blades Lieutenant with Combi-weapon (90 Points) • 1x Combi-weapon 1x Paired combat blades • Enhancements: Master of Machine War (Aura) Techmarine (80 Points) • Warlord • 1x Forge bolter 1x Grav-pistol 1x Omnissian power axe 1x Servo-arm • Enhancements: Adept of the Omnissiah Techmarine (95 Points) • 1x Forge bolter 1x Grav-pistol 1x Omnissian power axe 1x Servo-arm • Enhancements: Target Augury Web (Aura) OTHER DATASHEETS Black Templars Repulsor Executioner (235 Points) • 1x Armoured hull 1x Heavy laser destroyer 1x Heavy onslaught gatling cannon 1x Icarus rocket pod 1x Multi-melta 1x Repulsor Executioner defensive array 1x Twin Icarus ironhail heavy stubber 1x Twin heavy bolter Gladiator Lancer (160 Points) • 1x Armoured hull 1x Icarus rocket pod 1x Ironhail heavy stubber 1x Lancer laser destroyer 2x Storm bolter Gladiator Lancer (160 Points) • 1x Armoured hull 1x Icarus rocket pod 1x Ironhail heavy stubber 1x Lancer laser destroyer 2x Storm bolter Land Raider Redeemer (260 Points) • 1x Armoured tracks 2x Flamestorm cannon 1x Hunter-killer missile 1x Multi-melta 1x Storm bolter 1x Twin assault cannon Repulsor Executioner (220 Points) • 1x Armoured hull 1x Heavy laser destroyer 1x Heavy onslaught gatling cannon 1x Icarus rocket pod 1x Ironhail heavy stubber 1x Repulsor Executioner defensive array 1x Twin Icarus ironhail heavy stubber 1x Twin heavy bolter Repulsor Executioner (220 Points) • 1x Armoured hull 1x Heavy laser destroyer 1x Heavy onslaught gatling cannon 1x Icarus rocket pod 1x Ironhail heavy stubber 1x Repulsor Executioner defensive array 1x Twin Icarus ironhail heavy stubber 1x Twin heavy bolter Repulsor Executioner (220 Points) • 1x Armoured hull 1x Heavy laser destroyer 1x Heavy onslaught gatling cannon 1x Icarus rocket pod 1x Ironhail heavy stubber 1x Repulsor Executioner defensive array 1x Twin Icarus ironhail heavy stubber 1x Twin heavy bolter Exported with App Version: v1.13.0 (36), Data Version: v373

Helbrecht and his used car dealership. Pretty hilarious.

Gotta admit, it was one of the most fun lists I’ve ever used. Solo Helbrecht was surprisingly useful.

*helbrecht slaps the hood of the redeemer* "This tank can burn so many heretics" Here's my list for local tournament at the end of the month. FIRE AND THE FLAMES (1990 points) Space Marines Black Templars Strike Force (2000 points) Righteous Crusaders CHARACTERS Chaplain (60 points) • 1x Absolvor bolt pistol 1x Crozius arcanum Chaplain Grimaldus (120 points) • 1x Chaplain Grimaldus • 1x Artificer crozius 1x Plasma pistol • 3x Cenobyte Servitor • 3x Close combat weapon High Marshal Helbrecht (120 points) • Warlord • 1x Ferocity 1x Sword of the High Marshals BATTLELINE Crusader Squad (85 points) • 1x Sword Brother • 1x Close combat weapon 1x Plasma pistol 1x Power fist • 4x Initiate • 3x Astartes chainsword 4x Bolt Pistol 4x Close combat weapon 1x Power fist Primaris Crusader Squad (140 points) • 1x Primaris Sword Brother • 1x Heavy bolt pistol 1x Power weapon • 5x Primaris Initiate • 3x Astartes chainsword 5x Bolt pistol 5x Close combat weapon 3x Heavy bolt pistol 2x Heavy bolt pistol 2x Power fist • 4x Primaris Neophyte • 4x Astartes chainsword 4x Bolt pistol OTHER DATASHEETS Black Templars Gladiator Reaper (160 points) • 1x Armoured hull 1x Icarus rocket pod 1x Multi-melta 2x Tempest bolter 1x Twin heavy onslaught gatling cannon Black Templars Gladiator Reaper (160 points) • 1x Armoured hull 1x Icarus rocket pod 1x Multi-melta 2x Tempest bolter 1x Twin heavy onslaught gatling cannon Black Templars Repulsor Executioner (235 points) • 1x Armoured hull 1x Heavy onslaught gatling cannon 1x Icarus rocket pod 1x Macro plasma incinerator 1x Multi-melta 1x Repulsor Executioner defensive array 1x Twin Icarus ironhail heavy stubber 1x Twin heavy bolter Bladeguard Veteran Squad (90 points) • 1x Bladeguard Veteran Sergeant • 1x Master-crafted power weapon 1x Plasma pistol • 2x Bladeguard Veteran • 2x Heavy bolt pistol 2x Master-crafted power weapon Land Raider Redeemer (260 points) • 1x Armoured tracks 2x Flamestorm cannon 1x Hunter-killer missile 1x Multi-melta 1x Storm bolter 1x Twin assault cannon Land Raider Redeemer (260 points) • 1x Armoured tracks 2x Flamestorm cannon 1x Hunter-killer missile 1x Multi-melta 1x Storm bolter 1x Twin assault cannon Primaris Sword Brethren (300 points) • 1x Sword Brother Castellan • 1x Combi-weapon 1x Master-crafted power weapon • 9x Primaris Sword Brother • 7x Heavy bolt pistol 2x Plasma pistol 7x Power weapon 2x Thunder hammer Exported with App Version: v1.13.0 (41), Data Version: v373

Love that. Helbrecht knows a good ride when he sees one lol.

I think there was a mistake on the dark angels winrate, it looks like you only tallied up the ironstorm and gladius task force games

I had just commented this same thing, overall DA is 47 not 71 according to the data of all detachments in the table

Blood Angels are back! … aaand they are gone.

Drukhari coming out swinging this weekend!

Is there any real Dark angels list in the pack, or mostly just darkshroud + azrael + regular SM units? I'm curious given the recent point decrease.

Most of these are still pre-mfm (majority of lists were due earlier in the week)

This is the only build that works competitively (I play solely DA comp for years). I'm running the ironstorm twin storm Raven with darkshroud, Azrael (just dropped due to increases) and darkshroud. The darkshroud makes this list as good as it is. It'll work without it, but not quite as good.

With the points increase, i will try not to use the Darkshroud. Azrael is too valuable. What list do you use ?

The darkshroud is way better than 1 extra CP a turn imho. 2 storm ravens, 2 redemptors, 1 brutalis, 1 darkshroud, scouts, callidus, infiltrators, Phobos librarian and a Hammerstrike.

You're more than likely going to find the Azrael, Darkshroud Ironstorm unfortunately

Thanks for sharing, as per uzgh. Your posts are REALLY appreciated.

**"Custodes**, as the third most played faction of the weekend with a 51% weekend win rate, zero event wins and only 4 top placings." Man good thing they're about to get totally nerfed. No big wins and a 51% rate is truly crushing.

While the codex was way too heavy handed, index custodes is a pretty hard counter to other melee armies, which isn’t good game design and probably needed toning down, but not to the extent it was

wish cronz were mid again so I could unshelve them #antimetagamer

Just play what you find fun, especially if you own them, and screw the haters.

I just wanted to say how much I appreciate the work you put in.

Nids: 40% WR as one of the most played factions GW: Best I can do is +5points on Gargoyles (and a sprinkling of buffs on terrible units)

Better late than never my man, glad to see you still at it.

If the next dataslate does not give meaningful buffs to the lesser factions such as my Tyranids, I'm dropping 10th for the most part. They simply do not feel good to use, army rule needs improving, and my new fav model (the Norn Emissary) is too weak to be worth. Ik GW doesn't normally do datasheet buffs but a # of units could seriously use it. Or maybe buff crusher stampede so it actually becomes the detachment to use monsters with (like give +2 str so all the str 9 melee monsters actually do something).

You know what I really dislike about the "give +1S/an extra pip of ap/whatever to units" as a blanket buff. We still don't have any diversity in weapon profiles. Instead of everything being S9 AP-2 3D it's S10 Ap-2 3D. We need some actual diversity in our monsters weapon profiles. It's all the same and it's boring. We should have monsters which are better into elite units than tanks. I don't mind having a couple monsters as it is currently. Keep the maleceptor at that level as it has a good ranged profile. I'm so sick of seeing the exact same profile all over the place for Tyranids. Make some units a proper anti tank choice but importantly keep some the same, trygons, carnifexes and hive tyrants/Swarmlord with boneswords as an example. They are all meant to be anti heavy so give them an extra bit of ap and more S..

I will agree in lack of diversity. Nothing ticks me more then the countless weapons with -2 ap (with the countless str 9 weapons just behind). Like dude, Tyranids should be good in melee with many options. Why does swarmlord and norns (arguably screamers too but debatable) have the same ap as genestealers. Higher ap into tougher enemies makes perfect sense, not making everything so similar. Side note, carnifex needs to hit on 3+ again. Until then no one wants to use them, maaaaybe with one eye but its a lot of points in 1 basket. I should be incentivized to use them.

We have diversity, we have a S6 AP1 monster with 2-7 attacks hitting on 3s!

I feel the same. Please kill biovore scoring and let us play like how the lore says we should, aka with big monsters that punch hard, or a swarm of smaller bugs

why am i concerned seeing my BA with so many placings? can you guys please go to events and int a bit? I dont want to get nerfed into oblivion :D

You already did get nerfed, this would all likely be using pre-MFM points.

Already happened :( wont be nearly as many next week

wasnt it basically just a 20 points increase on the DC with JP + 10 for lemartes? Do you think this will stop us from performing well?

I think it will reduce the ability to spam DC quite as much which was our crutch, lots of BA list were running 2x10 and a 5 and lemmy, not to mention the Sanguinary Priests which also went up 10.

One of the winning lists went up like 90 points because of the DC spam. I was expecting a buff and not a nerf. But Custodes loosing fight first makes BA a bit better.

It’s a pretty minor hit - a normal BA list went up less than 100 points (the list I was running went up 70 and only that much because I had a callidus in the list). Most people can cut a unit of scouts or something and be good to go. Some balanced out because they were bringing a bunch of jumpercessors already

Fun while it lasted BA!

Hope you enjoyed Dungeon Crawler Carl! Which book are you on? I'm currently waiting for the 7th to come out...

God damn it doughnut

Mongo is appalled!!

Just burned through all the books in a week. I actually think book 6 was the weakest but it’s become one of my all time favorite series overall. The end of book 5 was amazing.

Well I'm certainly glad GW thinks nids are in a good enough place where we can focus on internal rather than external balance. These results really do emphasise exactly how true that is

The stats for Squig city are wrong, BCP says that the 3rd place necrons, and 4th place guard both have a draw, so they should be both 4-0-1, not necrons 5-0 and guard 4-1, means guard had two events undefeated this weekend.

In my experience, Death Guard are a good army but with rough matchups into the top of the meta right now. They struggle into up/down armies like Necrons and GK because they’re slow, aren’t consistent enough up close to reliably beat custodes, and don’t have good anti-tank options for the space marines/knights matchups (despite running a lot of hulls themselves). I think they’ll start doing a little better in the new meta, though!

Neeew Achievement! Community Support. You have provided useful data to the community. Feels good doesn’t it? Rewaaard?? Here is a gold Overpriced Sprue Box! (Love DCC)

The base marine datasheets just feel so tame. The Bladeguard stat line isn’t bad, but the datasheet rule may as well not even exist. Compare it to something like a Skorpekh (which aren’t even seen that much in that book) and it’s just sad.

Any chance anyone could post either of the daemon lists from St Louis or high noon Oklahoma? Interesting to see if anything special in their lists.

Here's the High Noon list. His only loss was to the winning Tau player. thirster (1995 points) Chaos Daemons Strike Force (2000 points) Daemonic Incursion CHARACTERS Bloodmaster (65 points) • 1x Blade of blood Bloodthirster (320 points) • 1x Great axe of Khorne 1x Hellfire breath Daemon Prince of Chaos (200 points) • Daemonic Allegiance: Khorne • 1x Hellforged weapons 1x Infernal cannon Rendmaster on Blood Throne (150 points) • 1x Attendants’ hellblades 1x Blade of blood Rendmaster on Blood Throne (150 points) • 1x Attendants’ hellblades 1x Blade of blood Skarbrand (305 points) • Warlord • 1x Bellow of endless fury 1x Slaughter and Carnage BATTLELINE Bloodletters (120 points) • 1x Bloodreaper • 1x Hellblade • 9x Bloodletter • 1x Daemonic Icon 9x Hellblade 1x Instrument of Chaos OTHER DATASHEETS Bloodcrushers (220 points) • 1x Bloodhunter • 1x Hellblade 1x Juggernaut’s bladed horn • 5x Bloodcrusher • 1x Daemonic Icon 5x Hellblade 1x Instrument of Chaos 5x Juggernaut’s bladed horn Bloodcrushers (220 points) • 1x Bloodhunter • 1x Hellblade 1x Juggernaut’s bladed horn • 5x Bloodcrusher • 1x Daemonic Icon 5x Hellblade 1x Instrument of Chaos 5x Juggernaut’s bladed horn Flesh Hounds (70 points) • 1x Gore Hound • 1x Burning roar 1x Collar of Khorne 1x Gore-drenched fangs • 4x Flesh Hound • 4x Collar of Khorne 4x Gore-drenched fangs Flesh Hounds (70 points) • 1x Gore Hound • 1x Burning roar 1x Collar of Khorne 1x Gore-drenched fangs • 4x Flesh Hound • 4x Collar of Khorne 4x Gore-drenched fangs Skull Cannon (105 points) • 1x Attendants’ hellblades 1x Biting maw 1x Skull cannon

Codex marines need SOMETHING. Giving them back original OoM wound rerolls if your units are all codex compliant might be the easiest buff. Maybe it could even be as simple as "While your codex chapter master is your warlord and is alive, you can reroll wound rolls on your OoM target". Not sure how that would compare vs all the Space Marine+ unique unit choices, but seems like it would be closer. However, even that wouldn't do anything to fix non-Ultramarine chapters who don't have anything that comes close to balance with the Ultramarines units (Ventris, Calgar, Tigurius, Sicarius, Guilliman... even if they're not all the current meta, they give a lot of choice and flexibility that other chapters lack). To help with this I would like one or both of these options: 1. Chapter Master giving some army-wide buff. If Shrike is on the field for Raven Guard, he buffs all Phobos units for example. This could make RG a competitive choice for Vanguard (which it absolutely should be). The same with IH and Ironstorm, WS and Stormlance, etc. I appreciate fluff, and if DA or SW are doing Stormlance better than WS then something is wrong. 2. Add 1 or 2 Chapter-specific datasheets. They probably aren't going to give LSM chapters new units at this point in the edition... But it would be simple to add 1 or 2 new datasheets to the app that have that chapter keyword and give maybe a slightly different shooting profile, or some different ability. Not only would this give them a few more dials to turn when balancing things (they'd have separate points in the dataslate), but it would give each chapter something that they do best. So give us an Iron Hands Redemptor that maybe automatically gets Blessing of the Omnisiah and has a different point cost. Just some ideas, and I'm no expert here on how best to implement something like this, but either option or both would make these armies more compelling, and give them some better ways to balance them against the Space Marine+ armies who have their own tailor-made detachments that should be desirable to use.

I hear what you're saying but the wound reroll on oath was silly. My hope is that instead of amping up the power of armies struggling to compete at top tables, they continue to push down the top armies to even out the meta. Otherwise we'll end up like we did in 9th with absurd power levels and lethality, and basically a game of gotcha. Tabled by T3 is just no fun for anyone.

>Custdoes...51% weekend win rate, zero event wins THANK GOD GW NERFED THEM INTO OBLIVION! THE META CANNOT HANDLE THIS OPNESSSS!!!!

Is everyone reading DCC? I picked up the series and have run into 3 other random people also reading it.

I read them a couple months ago, they are fantastic.

Anyone got the 5-0 genestealer cult list? Thank you!

Did the space wolves players suddenly decide to turn up after their precious Thunder wolf cav criminally got away with no pts adjustments??

Got 3 months of free abuse. But yeah, wolves +10ppm, wolf characters +20ppm, wulfen +15 for 5. They really need to lose the equivalent of one TWC blob.

Dice Goblin GT used new points and Ork, Custodes dexs.

I was at War At The Westward IV this weekend, went 2-3 (because I'm an idiot who doesn't know how The Ritual works properly, but even then my opponent was brill) but everyone there was an absolute pleasure to play. Such good vibes and I'd recommend it if you can get down there, it's down near Plymouth in the basement of a pub! Day 2, between round 4 and 5 we all had roast dinners lmao was brill. Think many were a little drunk by end of day 1 haha. Anyways I watched the end of Orks vs BA which decided the event, from what I remember the BA player was very concerned at T2 that he was going to lose since the Ork player forced him into some very tough decisions, but Purge the Foe was the last mission and purge he did. Ended 98-76. I'll post the BA list on this comment thread, please ask if you want any other lists from this event. :)

BA List: 2 7 all in ++ Army Roster (Imperium - Adeptus Astartes - Blood Angels) [1,995pts] ++ + Configuration + Battle Size: 2. Strike Force (2000 Point limit) Detachment: Sons of Sanguinius Show/Hide Options: Agents of the Imperium are visible, Imperial Knights are visible, Legends are visible, Titans are visible, Unaligned Forces are visible, Unaligned Fortifications are visible + Epic Hero + Lemartes [110pts] The Sanguinor [140pts] + Character + Captain with Jump Pack [105pts]: Artisan of War, Warlord . Melee and Pistol: Hand Flamer, Power Fist Chaplain [60pts] Sanguinary Priest with Jump Pack [90pts] Sanguinary Priest with Jump Pack [90pts] + Battleline + Assault Intercessor Squad [75pts] . Assault Intercessor Sergeant: Hand Flamer, Power Fist . 4x Assault Intercessors: 4x Astartes Chainsword, 4x Heavy Bolt Pistol + Infantry + Assault Intercessors with Jump Packs [170pts] . Assault Intercessor Sergeant with Jump Pack: Astartes Chainsword, Hand Flamer . 7x Assault Intercessors with Jump Pack: 7x Astartes Chainsword, 7x Heavy Bolt Pistol . Assault Intercessors with Jump Pack w/ Plasma Pistol . Assault Intercessors with Jump Pack w/ Plasma Pistol Assault Intercessors with Jump Packs [85pts] . Assault Intercessor Sergeant with Jump Pack: Hand Flamer, Power Fist . 3x Assault Intercessors with Jump Pack: 3x Astartes Chainsword, 3x Heavy Bolt Pistol . Assault Intercessors with Jump Pack w/ Plasma Pistol Death Company Marines [230pts] . Death Company Marine . . Melee and Pistol: Inferno Pistol, Power Fist . Death Company Marine . . Melee and Pistol: Inferno Pistol, Power Fist . Death Company Marine . . Melee and Pistol: Inferno Pistol, Power Fist . Death Company Marine . . Melee and Pistol: Inferno Pistol, Power Fist . Death Company Marine . . Melee and Pistol: Inferno Pistol, Power Fist . Death Company Marine . . Melee and Pistol: Inferno Pistol, Power Fist . Death Company Marine . . Melee and Pistol: Inferno Pistol, Power Fist . Death Company Marine . . Melee and Pistol: Inferno Pistol, Power Fist . Death Company Marine . . Melee and Pistol: Inferno Pistol, Power Fist . Death Company Marine . . Melee and Pistol: Inferno Pistol, Power Fist Death Company Marines with Jump Packs [260pts] . Death Company Marine . . Melee weapon and pistol: Inferno Pistol, Power Fist . Death Company Marine . . Melee weapon and pistol: Inferno Pistol, Power Fist . Death Company Marine . . Melee weapon and pistol: Inferno Pistol, Power Fist . Death Company Marine . . Melee weapon and pistol: Inferno Pistol, Power Fist . Death Company Marine . . Melee weapon and pistol: Inferno Pistol, Power Fist . Death Company Marine . . Melee weapon and pistol: Inferno Pistol, Power Fist . Death Company Marine . . Melee weapon and pistol: Inferno Pistol, Power Fist . Death Company Marine . . Melee weapon and pistol: Inferno Pistol, Power Fist . Death Company Marine . . Melee weapon and pistol: Inferno Pistol, Power Fist . Death Company Marine . . Melee weapon and pistol: Inferno Pistol, Power Fist Death Company Marines with Jump Packs [130pts] . Death Company Marine . . Melee weapon and pistol: Inferno Pistol, Power Fist . Death Company Marine . . Melee weapon and pistol: Inferno Pistol, Power Fist . Death Company Marine . . Melee weapon and pistol: Inferno Pistol, Power Fist . Death Company Marine . . Melee weapon and pistol: Inferno Pistol, Power Fist . Death Company Marine . . Melee weapon and pistol: Inferno Pistol, Power Fist Infiltrator Squad [100pts]: Helix Gauntlet, Infiltrator Comms Array . Infiltrator Sergeant . 4x Infiltrators: 4x Bolt Pistol, 4x Close Combat Weapon, 4x Marksman Bolt Carbine Scout Squad [65pts] . Scout Sergeant: Astartes Chainsword . Scout w/ Heavy Weapon: Missile Launcher . Scouts w/ Astartes Shotgun . 2x Scouts w/ Combat Knife: 2x Bolt Pistol, 2x Close Combat Weapon, 2x Combat Knife Vanguard Veteran Squad with Jump Packs [210pts] . Vanguard Veteran Sergeant with Jump Pack: Storm Shield . Vanguard Veterans with Jump Packs: Storm Shield . Vanguard Veterans with Jump Packs: Storm Shield . Vanguard Veterans with Jump Packs: Storm Shield . Vanguard Veterans with Jump Packs: Storm Shield . Vanguard Veterans with Jump Packs: Storm Shield . Vanguard Veterans with Jump Packs: Storm Shield . Vanguard Veterans with Jump Packs: Storm Shield . Vanguard Veterans with Jump Packs: Storm Shield . Vanguard Veterans with Jump Packs: Storm Shield + Dedicated Transport + Rhino [75pts]: Hunter Killer Missile ++ Total: [1,995pts] ++

Welcome back! Had a day of withdrawal... But seriously, thank you OP!

I love that your table reflects Dark Angels players opinions of our Codex Supplement… We also try to just ignore the Inner Circle and Company of Hunters detachments! 😂

So next week we start seeing the Chad 3 Brutalis lists, right? Right guys? (Please tell me this is happening I need a copium refill)

This is still pre-codex Tau, yes?

Mostly probably. I know some smaller events with more flexible timelines let the new Tau in, but these seem mostly to be pre codex. Didnt they get delivered to stores only last week and the warhammer app codes arent live yet?

As a BT player I wish my faction didn't have access to GTF or Ironstorm so my MSU RC style that isn't really winning anyways would quit catching stray bullets for the "meta" lists.

GSC 5-0 Ayyyyyyyyyy! Could anyone post the list from 2024 St. Louis Annual Last Minute Tournament (SALT)?

I think there is a mistake in DA overall win % The overall wins and played games does not take into account the other detachments only ironstorm and gladius, but if u sum all detachment in the table is 83 games played and 39 wins overall which is 47% or I'm missing something?

bro, can you fix the data table on your website sot that it's actually legible? Literally gets cut off on mobile devices and when run on a pc the columns can't contain more than 5-7 letters creating a vertical mess of text