The forty hour work week was established in labor reform and was seen as a compromise between workers and capitalists. As productivity has gone up, capitalists have sought to keep the forty hour work week because those forty hours are now more profitable for them than they used to be. Workers are accomplishing more but aren’t sharing in the spoils of those accomplishments so their forty hours are worth less. Capitalists are not interested in steady profits, just growth in the next quarter. And the next. And the next, always.
And since most companies ban unions nowadays there's really nothing workers can even do to dispute that, correct? Back in the day workers could strike but if you tried that at a non-union company nowadays they'd basically fire or lay off anyone participating. I feel sick.
Don't lose hope! Unionization movements are popping up all over the country. We can demand better conditions and we will claw back the profit they've been withholding from us.
Unions were the agreement between striking labourers and bosses who say bosses of other companies beaten dead in front of their house because they didn't pay enough and on time.
Unions aren't a privlige, they are a safetynet for everyone to start talking before the bashing happens.
And that is how the Detroit auto workers got assistance from the Mob. Did not work out terribly well. But they needed protection from Ford gunmen and Pinkerton Detective agency I think it was.
There were terrible things that happened in Colorado with mine workers being machine gunned in tents by national guard as well if I remember correctly. I met a guy years ago, his parents were there, and he later owned a gun shop for some reason.
There’s no banning unions. Workers hold the power and always will, and there’s no way for a company to stop every one of their employees from walking out in an effort to fight for better working conditions.
My minimum wage job gives me 42 days off a year. 25 days annual leave, 12 Bank Holidays and five sick days. I can promise you that this was not given by a benevolent employer but beacause we have unions. Obviously our socialist past gave us free at the point of use medical care.
Look, the UK is a fucking idiotic country but even we Brits managed to get this shit right. What happened to you America?
This is a huge part of the problem. They’ve convinced a decent segment of the population that unions are the problem and are just hurting workers. They have downsides, sure, but they still usually do way more good than harm.
I’m not going to say they were completely innocent, but maybe look at who gained by unions being maligned before you cast all the blame. There are plenty of business and political interests that gain more power by weakening unions
I’ve been part of unions before and seems all they do is protect awful employees and then the rest of us who actually give a damn end up doing all the work. And those other idiots end up still getting paid the exact same. They’ve made the workplace completely dysfunctional. They also prevented management from helping when we were short because they saw it as they were taking away hours from employees. We were short a lot because the shitty employees called out all of the time. It’s ridiculous. Unions should honestly make it easier to get rid of dead beat employees because it hurts all the other workers when they are allowed to stay and misbehave and call out all the time. I never want to work in a union environment ever again.
10000000% agreed on these dysfunctional policies of all (or most) unions to protect bad employees and not make it part of union culture to encourage excellence. That shit is obnoxious, along with purely seniority based rules where basically being mediocre forever gives you more power than being good at your job.
I’ve always thought those policies were the union unintentionally undercutting their own value.
I think if you look you’ll find lots of examples where workers were able to use unions to balance out the power imbalance and achieve fair treatment from their employers when they otherwise couldn’t. If you look at sectors like farm workers that are treated terribly and can’t unionize you see better how bad it can be without it
Something that grows for the sake of growth at all costs is a cancer- we recognize that in modern medicine. Why does our society find it so easy to ignore the same in the marketplace?
Our country has such a weird focus on the individual but could give a shit about groups of peoples. Most of our Senators and Congresspersons don't really give a damn about anything except reelection and the capitalists are tax free and legally protected to crash the economy as many times as they want- The Fed will ALWAYS bail out the banks and brokers. But everyday people struggling to afford the bare necessities of life because of the circus that is Wall Street? "fuck em- they spend all their money on avocado toast and finding ways to avoid work".
Exactly. American individualism is the greatest con ever. Makes a virtue of people turning on their community for their own personal gain while cutting their own throats in the long run as humans have always survived as a collectivist species.
I've said it before and I'll say it again but I hope I live long enough to see all these ancient motherfuckers in charge of how we live our lives finally die off and the younger generation start to take over. I just want to see meaningful change for once in my life.
I don't think the generation shift will help.
I'm spanish and we have the same conditions (some more social welfare like government provided free healthcare and stuff). When old company owners died, their heirs inherit it and keep the same conditions which by the way are lately getting worse.
You're right to make that question, but the people who own the companies and means of production, who are the only ones able to make that shift without violence, don't want the change because it would diminish their ability to exploit the rest of people.
edit: typo
That's depressing. Someday, the masses are going to have to get tired of being exploited. I don't think we'll see it in our lifetimes but I really hope we do.
By the time the masses mobilize it will be too late. Hell it's already too late. The halls of power are well corrupt at this point. The capitalists are all in bed with the politicians. It'll be the fall of Rome again. By the way besides invasion and war this is the way that empires always go. Isn't that funny? As a species we keep making the same mistake and letting these fuckers get into power. And all it takes every time is our complacency.
Why don't you start your company an then tell me why you hire people? Do you hire them to make sure they have a good living, or do you hire people because you need to expand your business to handle demand and make yourself more money?
If I started my own business my first priority would be the well-being of my employees and that's exactly why I would fail in this world we live in. There are no benefits to watching out for people - only for making more and more money and then hoarding that money for yourself.
If you started your own business, you wouldn't even have employees yet. Once you get to a size that requires more time than you are willing to put in or something requires specific skills you do not have, you then start hiring either that time or skills required.
Now there are plenty of awesome perks to having an employee pool that is happy and feels like they are an important part of the overall endeavor. They produce more if they see worth. They work harder if they directly see how it benefits them. They have loyalty to the business' needs and requirements. They protect the brand and advocate to the outside world on behalf of the company. All of these things are fantastic and we all should strive to have that relationship with the standard employees as it only makes since.
Now in saying all of that, it goes back to the original truth.... people do not start businesses so their employees reap the benefits and extra earnings. They take on all the financial risk, they have the relationships required for their business to succeed, they reap the rewards. If they share those rewards, it is usually after they made all they needed to manage that risk.
Almost all of my employees have standard competitive salaries. Their bonuses put them in the top 10% earners in my state. We do profit sharing at the end of the year which adds 10% of their earnings into their 401k, and we automatically put 3% in their 401K regardless. My employees basically earn double their salary after bonuses. But..... that is only possible because I make 5X my salary.
absolutely. Your first responsibility is to meet payroll. But you are kidding yourself if your second thought isn't how much money can I make after I meet payroll.
Until the large wooden and metal French invention is rolled out into the square and used once again, the downward trajectory of the plebeians will continue unabated. We have long past the tipping point. Sadly. It doesn’t matter if you vote left or right because the parties are prioritizing the agendas of the billionaire class. Sure they pander to different sensibilities superficially, that only serves to divide us though, it is merely a defensive strategy for that he plutocracy. Our offspring are fucked.
They will never ever do anything but tighten the screws further. They will never even consider improving the lives of the majority who are just disposable tools in there global game of wealth and power accumulation and hoarding.
Sorry.
I always laugh when people I know say everyone's favorite line, "I'm socially liberal but financially conservative" or "I agree with liberal values but I gotta say, I made more money when Trump was president) and yet they only have a couple thousand dollars in their bank accounts.
I got to pocket an extra couple grand during the Trump presidency because of the Temporary tax cuts us plebes got while the rich got permanent tax cuts. Sadly the cost turned out to be the normalization of wretched awfulness ironically praised and worshiped as the second coming of Jesus by the Cristo fascists. Lol. We kind of deserve what’s happening to us, if you think about it
I really don't want to play the victim and say we deserve it but sometimes I feel like we do. That we ended up in a reality where that fucking weirdo is worshipped should be all the proof I need. Also, I didn't make any extra money under his orange ass so fuck me I guess lol
Of course you deserve it. You allowed that monster to become president. He had never even held political office! What the actual fuck were you thinking?
The alternative was a servant of the plutocrat class. The choice was the plutocrat or it’s servant…. “Left wing” television gave the plutocrat his power….. its all so dumb.
She was a terrible choice, but it was her turn. The thing is that she was so terrible that the right would have used her to catapult the same shit show we are in now. Trump TV would have been a thing, the alternative reality would be just as prominent in right wing plebs. And the billionaires would have been served the same silver platter. It would have been a shit show that made the left look really bad, right now the left simply looks inept (they are, on purpose) and the right looks down right evil.
In the end neither one of these parties serves the interest of the masses, it is simply not their priority. Sure they will pander and those people who are gullible enough will fall for team a or team b, and they will turn their attention away from the source of their problems and at each other as the rich summer together in the Hamptons while their haul summers in the Caymans tax free.
It wouldn't be too difficult to get a whole bunch of celebrities and the like to call for a general strike. I know it would be scarey and people would lose jobs but if you love your children then you need to do something.
My last company did 4x10. It’s a fair middle ground for some service jobs. You’re clearly not doing your best work by the end, but then again for service you don’t really need to be 100%. Warm bodies serve for the vast majority of customer service. Besides, adding on a couple more hours to the end doesn’t feel that much more after a acclimation period, and getting a 3 day weekend every week is more than worth it for some.
My buddy works four 10's on that exact schedule and in a way I'm envious of him for the long weekend, though the 7am-5:30pm shift he works kinda sucks in my opinion.
Currently, I'm on a bit of a weird schedule but I like it for the weekend I get - I work third shift (11pm-7am) from Monday night to Friday morning and then I work a day shift on Saturday. So basically my first day of work is Monday night at 11pm and my fourth day is done Friday morning at 7am. I get the majority of Friday off and I tend to stay up all day and sleep that night (whereas I'd normally sleep from 2pm-10pm on a weekday work night). Then, I work 7am-3pm on Saturday which isn't a big deal to me because what are you actually doing on a Saturday during that time? Then I have Saturday late afternoon and evening and then I'm off all day Sunday. Finally, I have off Monday all day until 11pm. So it's a bit of an odd schedule but I get almost 3 full days off and get a super easy work day on Saturday (very small shift, usually less work to do). Even third shift is great because it's a small shift and we're the only people there plus our supervisor to it's a very chill work environment.
Gross, I'm making it sound like I enjoy work now. I don't, I just don't mind my job and I like being around several of my coworkers.
Short answer - old fashioned mindset of CEOs and business owners who don’t want the status quo to change.
We could switch to a 4 day work week and not even notice a difference in productivity loss. In fact [it has been done before](https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2021/07/06/iceland-four-day-work-week/) and was successful, in some cases even seeing boosts in productivity.
But as long as we have boomers running the majority of businesses and ass kissers supporting their old fashioned work habits, we probably won’t see any change.
Nevertheless, don’t stop talking about it or bringing it up any chance you get. Everyone having a healthier work life balance is worth fighting for.
It would make a difference and has been proven over and over again in trials that a shorter work day and week increases productivity as well as overall mental health for employees. I swear every time a new study pops up that talks about the benefits of shorter time at work I immediately start seeing an influx of articles about how more work is better, actually and that we'd be sad if we spent less time at work.
I work at a large insurance company in Europe with a decent ethical sense regarding work conditions. In the past few years they have gradually reduced the 40 hour workweek to 34, while maintaining the same monthly salary. So far they have found that employees have been producing the same amount of value in a 34h week as in a 40h week (albeit that in white collar jobs that can be hard to measure). We also have the freedom to spread those 34 hours over 4 or 5 days.
To be fair, we just don’t have managers who count hours, they trust us that we put in the required time. The point is that it changes the attitude of employees: if they don’t mind that I take off a few hours earlier once in a while, I also don’t mind when they ask me to put in some more hours at another time.
Unfortunately, even in Europe this is not very common. Too many managers still don’t understand that paying a decent salary and giving people enough autonomy can change the whole corporate culture to something that is more pleasant for everyone, including management
That sounds amazing despite being basically the bare minimum change a company would be willing to do. Part of why I stay at my job is because I'm given slight autonomy with my work day, I can choose if I want to just do basic maintenance work all night or if I want to do other people's parts or I can put inspection stickers on cars all night. I appreciate that level of autonomy as it keeps my job from stagnating too much and although I dread going to work it isn't as bad as it could be if I were being micromanaged for my full shift. My job could really benefit from a shorter work day and week because it's labor-intensive and we're all completely exhausted by the end of our work day and so worn out at the end of the week most of us spend our time off sleeping.
Because it’s a stupid idea to have a 5 day/40 hour work week. That’s why we have it here in the US. Don’t get sick either… you definitely don’t want to get sick here. You’ll be bankrupt from the ambulance ride.
Because it means you don't have the time and energy left to realize how hard you're getting fucked, because if you did have the time, then you'd probably start doing things like realizing that there are people who are the root cause and facilitators of this situation and that people can be found at physical locations.
There are other options. Plenty of jobs that run 4/10s as in 4, 10hour shifts. They fucking rule if you don’t mind your blue collar job. Gives you just enough rest to rejuvenate your patience for your foreman for the following week.
But I forgot. I’m in the wrong sub.
Brain go burrrrrrr
I think four 10 hour days is the next step we're going to see companies take rather than outright reducing the work day and week. They think they need us there for 40 hours to squeeze every ounce of productivity they can out of while working a shorter day and week would actually be what makes us more productive.
It does work, lots of projects run on 4/10s depending your trade. With plenty of over time as well. I have always been more inclined to do overtime if I already hit 40 hours in 4 days. That extra day of dragging out bullshit, fuck that if I’m going to come in on a 6th day for OT. That’s the thing about blue collar, it’s the pay and scheduling that keeps us around as long as we are IMO.
Exactly and I've talked about that in other replies here. I do agree with you. I would definitely be more inclined to work OT if I worked four 10s because I'm already programmed to work five days anyway.
We've had to fight tooth and nail to get a 40 hour work week as opposed to longer shifts, and the american public has not yet been able to effectively organize together for their collective interests. Not entirely peoples own fault, the powers that be have put quite a lot of work into keeping us as divided as possible. The tide seems to be starting to turn with the wave of strikes happening, so maybe there's hope yet.
France switched decades ago to a 35 hour week, similar to your 6 hour shifts proposal. It was directly to reduce unemployment, exactly like you point out. The US has a labor shortage AND issues with healthcare being tied to full time work. These are issues France didn't have any would be a large part of why there would be push back from a lot of folks.
Because the only thing corporate officers and shareholders care about is "more." No amount of profit is enough, you have to exceed the last quarter's profits. How can you exceed profits if you can't sell more products? Cut costs! If your expenses go down and your revenue stays level, your profit margin goes up! Shortsighted? Yes. Effective? Also yes.
Allowing people to work fewer hours would reduce productivity, which would reduce profits. Hiring more workers means increasing the wage budget, which increases expenses and reduces profits.
Long story short, we work a 40 hour work week because it's illegal to make us work *more* than 40 hours without paying overtime and companies *hate* paying overtime (since that cuts into profits)
Yeah. Recent studies have shown that employees working less hours actually increased their productivity which I mean, I can only imagine corporate's reaction to that news. I haven't heard much about that over the past couple months though so I'm sure they're doing everything they can to squash that news. As a matter of fact, right after that news started to drop, I noticed an increase in articles about "benefits of going back to the office", "why remote work is actually bad for you" or "your boss isn't mean or demanding, they're just under more stress than you are".
There is no plan. The government lacks the motivation and power to enforce something like this. Businesses are just copycats. Why do schools still have summer breaks? These kind of norms won't change unless something drastic, along the lines of a world war or great depression, happens, and maybe not even then. No one is in control, the only thing in control is complacency.
They calculated the most efficient use of human labour and decided it's that. They haven't adjusted for 150 years of industrial revolution. Once they do that, it'll be 50 hours per week.
Edit to add:
Once everybody gets used to working from home, they'll be open to living at work, thus eliminating ten hours travel time, from your weekly schedule.
Because with unions having become rare in this country business owners and shareholders have no reason to consider worker’s interests when making decisions. If unions were the standard and not the exception here companies would actually have to compete to attract employees. But we refuse to unionize and so we work longer hours for less money. But in my opinion pizza parties make it all worth it. Lol
Ignoring the fact that the population has grown, technology has also significantly advanced making overall productivity of a single worker increase exponentially each decade.
A worker today could probably do 40 hours worth of 1920’s work in a single 8 hour shift.
Instead we continue to work the same hours for the same pay (or less sometimes when you adjust for inflation) and the owner of the company pockets allllll the extra productivity.
This is so true , I work in retail and we have so much down time that I literally sit and watch Netflix half the time. My coworker be knocking out sometimes two movies or or a series. We probably work like 4 of those 8 hours , its so slow it's ridiculous. Lol
Its because they have been printing too much money making inflation skyrocket and to keep up with that they made the American house hold its slaves. First only one person of the couple needed to work, then both, then get second jobs, then work more than 40 hours , then weekends, work while sick , through a crisis or disaster (worked through a flood and a fire) … they just push the debt onto us without thinking we have a breaking point.
My solution , raise minimum wage 20 hr, and make a full time job only 28 hours a week, reduce income tax, with two weeks paid vacation. meaning overtime is 40 , meaning you will have more time to enjoy your time here and be wealthy.
With the time not working being the mode for creating jobs( though i hope people work for themselves and not corps) as well as “paying for” the deficit for national vacation time
There’s a labor shortage in basically every industry right now… we can barely staff the shifts we have let alone drop everyone’s hours and bring in a whole new shift
Yes absolutely they should. Maybe they shouldn’t have let over a million people die from Covid too. But if you are asking, “why haven’t we shortened the working day” the answer in part is the persistent labor shortage, and particularly the skilled labor shortage
My workplace is starting maintenance techs at 38$ an hour and can’t even get applications. It’s not just pay, there just isn’t enough skilled labor to go around.
Yep, places like that are happy to pay skilled workers well but are rarely willing to train them, while the apprenticeships unions run are always competitive to get into. They all complain about the labor shortage but aren’t willing to do anything about it
Most of our labor force is union, and we will pay for education. Not sure what else there is to do. I’m recommended people I know who need work and a few told me they didn’t want to work with “a bunch of dumb rednecks”. With that attitude they can stay poor.
I am wondering what the number of people have to do with it? You make the money you make based on the hours and production you earn the business. Without the production you earn the business, the business would not operate the way it does and employ the people it does. My business, like all businesses exist because the person at the top is taking a huge risk to own and operate said business. They only do it, because they have the opportunity to make large sums of money that makes "their" lives more comfortable.
You work there because your other options are not as good or profitable. You don't have to work there. You can work somewhere else. But again, if you do not have the skills it is all going to be similar for the rest of your life, unless you are the one willing to take on the giant risk of business ownership.
So either get damn good at what you do, or go out on a limb and start your own gigg. Either way, those are the two only paths to success.
That's pretty much exactly what I tell any newcomers to my field. I'm an auto tech. I tell them there isn't much money in just regular auto repair. Sure, the place I'm at currently starts techs off at 18/hr with no certs or insp. licenses. You can easily make over 20/hr just by getting your state insp./emissions licenses and an ASE or two. But nowadays, 18-22/hr is a survival wage, not a livable wage, depending on where you live, at least. Regardless, I tell the new hires that the need to either get very, very good at one specific specialty or they need to open their own shop, that's really the only ways to make good money in this industry.
The people are fine, i have lots of relatives and friends there, but so many unique silly things. 2 eighty year olds competing for President hahaha, most democracies elect people in their 40s
We're allowed to complain. We're allowed to talk about how we feel about the world. We're allowed to point out flaws in the systems that govern us. Talking about things is a hell of a lot better than holding it all in.
In my field it’s because the plant runs 24-7. The work is never done, and I work over occasionally, though on slow days I’ll leave early or come in late. The production workers work on 4 on/ 4 off, 12 he shifts with 4 separate shifts for full coverage. I’d like a 4 day work week but I also don’t want to be here for 10 hours.
Could be worse; in the service industry, managers are expected to work 50 hour weeks, with no overtime payment after 40 hours.
Why?
The FLSA has definitions for exempt and nonexempt employees. Hourly employees are ALWAYS nonexempt, meaning they're supposed to be paid overtime for hours over 40. Salary employees are almost ALWAYS exempt, meaning overtime is meaningless in terms of additional pay.
It's why most restaurant managers are salaried; you can then mandate 50-60-70 hour work weeks, without paying a cent more.
To be fair, this is true in many industries, but it's more prevalent in the restaurant world.
I can't speak for the restaurant industry but at the company I work for, managers are expected to show up an hour before their shift starts and stay for at least one hour after their shift ends to ensure smooth shift transitions. Many times they end up staying for 2-3 hours after their shift ends because there is just so much bullshit work to be done. I'm not calling it bullshit work - they do. It's kind of a shame because the managers are salaried meaning they're expected to work all these extra hours and they still only get paid 40 hours, there is no overtime pay for managers. So even the managers are getting screwed by corporate.
Just a couple of reasons I can think of. More employees creates more costs for a company. Like more benefits payed to employees. Higher workman's comp insurance just to name a couple. Also most companies can't find enough people to work now, never mind trying to fill another whole shift. I personally would rather work 4 10 hour shifts.
The whole reason companies can't find enough people to work are because they aren't paying enough or giving good enough benefits. They cry that no one wants to work anymore while not providing an environment that anyone would want to sacrifice their time in.
Well...I'm pretty sure a big reason is that unions managed to get it systematized at that schedule a hundred years ago then unions lost power due to many BS and so when it became productively possible to argue it lower, there was no power to do so legitimately.
Here's my pitch-
36 hour work week **But** lunch breaks are paid.
That means you could have four 9 hour days, but they're really only 30 minutes longer than you're working right now.
Other amounts of time are possible. You get 15 minutes of paid break for every 2 hours worked.
It's also easy to split for people who work 12 hour shifts.
I consider myself lucky that at my current job I get a paid half hour lunch break so I only technically work seven and a half hours (eight hour work day) compared to the more average eight and half hour work day with an unpaid lunch.
Who works 40 hours? The last three manufacturing companies I’ve done consulting at, their line employees were all working 12 hours a day 6 days a week. And then they hired me to figure out why they have a “retention problem” lmao
At some point the system will crash and probably we are closer than we think.
Birth rates are crashing in the western world simply because everyone are overworked and have no time or money to raise the next generation. And no one in power wants to admit that this is the main reason, instead they write stupid articles wondering what could have caused it. People used to be able to have a nice house and several children on one income. Now that’s hard even on two incomes, and if both parents work full time who will take care of the home and the children?
Exactly. I'm 36 and have already decided that I'm not having children. I'm struggling to get by myself, there's no way I could afford a child and I wouldn't want to bring one into this current world anyway.
The forty hour work week was established in labor reform and was seen as a compromise between workers and capitalists. As productivity has gone up, capitalists have sought to keep the forty hour work week because those forty hours are now more profitable for them than they used to be. Workers are accomplishing more but aren’t sharing in the spoils of those accomplishments so their forty hours are worth less. Capitalists are not interested in steady profits, just growth in the next quarter. And the next. And the next, always.
And since most companies ban unions nowadays there's really nothing workers can even do to dispute that, correct? Back in the day workers could strike but if you tried that at a non-union company nowadays they'd basically fire or lay off anyone participating. I feel sick.
Don't lose hope! Unionization movements are popping up all over the country. We can demand better conditions and we will claw back the profit they've been withholding from us.
Unions were the agreement between striking labourers and bosses who say bosses of other companies beaten dead in front of their house because they didn't pay enough and on time. Unions aren't a privlige, they are a safetynet for everyone to start talking before the bashing happens.
Back in the day being in a union meant you could've been shot/killed...
And that is how the Detroit auto workers got assistance from the Mob. Did not work out terribly well. But they needed protection from Ford gunmen and Pinkerton Detective agency I think it was. There were terrible things that happened in Colorado with mine workers being machine gunned in tents by national guard as well if I remember correctly. I met a guy years ago, his parents were there, and he later owned a gun shop for some reason.
😂
Ah the good old days /s
There’s no banning unions. Workers hold the power and always will, and there’s no way for a company to stop every one of their employees from walking out in an effort to fight for better working conditions.
Well it’s not your company. No reason you should dictate how to things when you lack knowledge in how to run a business
Unions are there primarily to prevent the owners from abusing you. You *are* being abused American workers.
[удалено]
My minimum wage job gives me 42 days off a year. 25 days annual leave, 12 Bank Holidays and five sick days. I can promise you that this was not given by a benevolent employer but beacause we have unions. Obviously our socialist past gave us free at the point of use medical care. Look, the UK is a fucking idiotic country but even we Brits managed to get this shit right. What happened to you America?
Maybe once upon a time. Now they are basically political fund raisers
😪
This is a huge part of the problem. They’ve convinced a decent segment of the population that unions are the problem and are just hurting workers. They have downsides, sure, but they still usually do way more good than harm.
The unions did that to themselves
The unions did that to themselves
I’m not going to say they were completely innocent, but maybe look at who gained by unions being maligned before you cast all the blame. There are plenty of business and political interests that gain more power by weakening unions
I’ve been part of unions before and seems all they do is protect awful employees and then the rest of us who actually give a damn end up doing all the work. And those other idiots end up still getting paid the exact same. They’ve made the workplace completely dysfunctional. They also prevented management from helping when we were short because they saw it as they were taking away hours from employees. We were short a lot because the shitty employees called out all of the time. It’s ridiculous. Unions should honestly make it easier to get rid of dead beat employees because it hurts all the other workers when they are allowed to stay and misbehave and call out all the time. I never want to work in a union environment ever again.
10000000% agreed on these dysfunctional policies of all (or most) unions to protect bad employees and not make it part of union culture to encourage excellence. That shit is obnoxious, along with purely seniority based rules where basically being mediocre forever gives you more power than being good at your job. I’ve always thought those policies were the union unintentionally undercutting their own value. I think if you look you’ll find lots of examples where workers were able to use unions to balance out the power imbalance and achieve fair treatment from their employers when they otherwise couldn’t. If you look at sectors like farm workers that are treated terribly and can’t unionize you see better how bad it can be without it
Very interested to see what impact AI and robotics will have on the future of unions.
Unions aren't really all that. They take your money and do nothing.
Something that grows for the sake of growth at all costs is a cancer- we recognize that in modern medicine. Why does our society find it so easy to ignore the same in the marketplace? Our country has such a weird focus on the individual but could give a shit about groups of peoples. Most of our Senators and Congresspersons don't really give a damn about anything except reelection and the capitalists are tax free and legally protected to crash the economy as many times as they want- The Fed will ALWAYS bail out the banks and brokers. But everyday people struggling to afford the bare necessities of life because of the circus that is Wall Street? "fuck em- they spend all their money on avocado toast and finding ways to avoid work".
Exactly. American individualism is the greatest con ever. Makes a virtue of people turning on their community for their own personal gain while cutting their own throats in the long run as humans have always survived as a collectivist species.
Yep. And the best part is that they're only afforded their individuality because they have none.
Because we work for dinosaurs.
I've said it before and I'll say it again but I hope I live long enough to see all these ancient motherfuckers in charge of how we live our lives finally die off and the younger generation start to take over. I just want to see meaningful change for once in my life.
I don't think the generation shift will help. I'm spanish and we have the same conditions (some more social welfare like government provided free healthcare and stuff). When old company owners died, their heirs inherit it and keep the same conditions which by the way are lately getting worse. You're right to make that question, but the people who own the companies and means of production, who are the only ones able to make that shift without violence, don't want the change because it would diminish their ability to exploit the rest of people. edit: typo
That's depressing. Someday, the masses are going to have to get tired of being exploited. I don't think we'll see it in our lifetimes but I really hope we do.
'The masses' are 10 ways divided and big money pays a pretty penny to keep it that way...
By the time the masses mobilize it will be too late. Hell it's already too late. The halls of power are well corrupt at this point. The capitalists are all in bed with the politicians. It'll be the fall of Rome again. By the way besides invasion and war this is the way that empires always go. Isn't that funny? As a species we keep making the same mistake and letting these fuckers get into power. And all it takes every time is our complacency.
Why don't you start your company an then tell me why you hire people? Do you hire them to make sure they have a good living, or do you hire people because you need to expand your business to handle demand and make yourself more money?
If I started my own business my first priority would be the well-being of my employees and that's exactly why I would fail in this world we live in. There are no benefits to watching out for people - only for making more and more money and then hoarding that money for yourself.
If you started your own business, you wouldn't even have employees yet. Once you get to a size that requires more time than you are willing to put in or something requires specific skills you do not have, you then start hiring either that time or skills required. Now there are plenty of awesome perks to having an employee pool that is happy and feels like they are an important part of the overall endeavor. They produce more if they see worth. They work harder if they directly see how it benefits them. They have loyalty to the business' needs and requirements. They protect the brand and advocate to the outside world on behalf of the company. All of these things are fantastic and we all should strive to have that relationship with the standard employees as it only makes since. Now in saying all of that, it goes back to the original truth.... people do not start businesses so their employees reap the benefits and extra earnings. They take on all the financial risk, they have the relationships required for their business to succeed, they reap the rewards. If they share those rewards, it is usually after they made all they needed to manage that risk. Almost all of my employees have standard competitive salaries. Their bonuses put them in the top 10% earners in my state. We do profit sharing at the end of the year which adds 10% of their earnings into their 401k, and we automatically put 3% in their 401K regardless. My employees basically earn double their salary after bonuses. But..... that is only possible because I make 5X my salary.
absolutely. Your first responsibility is to meet payroll. But you are kidding yourself if your second thought isn't how much money can I make after I meet payroll.
The next generation have already been programmed to continue the plan.
If you are able to find a way to stop it, please share.
Will do lol
Seriously, this subreddit has devolved to the same circle talking like this post, ffs.
You could move to Europe. Instant fix.
Bro we got the same 40hrs what you talking about.
Employment protection laws, annual leave and the NHS.
Until the large wooden and metal French invention is rolled out into the square and used once again, the downward trajectory of the plebeians will continue unabated. We have long past the tipping point. Sadly. It doesn’t matter if you vote left or right because the parties are prioritizing the agendas of the billionaire class. Sure they pander to different sensibilities superficially, that only serves to divide us though, it is merely a defensive strategy for that he plutocracy. Our offspring are fucked. They will never ever do anything but tighten the screws further. They will never even consider improving the lives of the majority who are just disposable tools in there global game of wealth and power accumulation and hoarding. Sorry.
I always laugh when people I know say everyone's favorite line, "I'm socially liberal but financially conservative" or "I agree with liberal values but I gotta say, I made more money when Trump was president) and yet they only have a couple thousand dollars in their bank accounts.
I got to pocket an extra couple grand during the Trump presidency because of the Temporary tax cuts us plebes got while the rich got permanent tax cuts. Sadly the cost turned out to be the normalization of wretched awfulness ironically praised and worshiped as the second coming of Jesus by the Cristo fascists. Lol. We kind of deserve what’s happening to us, if you think about it
I really don't want to play the victim and say we deserve it but sometimes I feel like we do. That we ended up in a reality where that fucking weirdo is worshipped should be all the proof I need. Also, I didn't make any extra money under his orange ass so fuck me I guess lol
Of course you deserve it. You allowed that monster to become president. He had never even held political office! What the actual fuck were you thinking?
The alternative was a servant of the plutocrat class. The choice was the plutocrat or it’s servant…. “Left wing” television gave the plutocrat his power….. its all so dumb.
I maintain that Ms Clinton would have been greatly preferential to Mr Trump.
She was a terrible choice, but it was her turn. The thing is that she was so terrible that the right would have used her to catapult the same shit show we are in now. Trump TV would have been a thing, the alternative reality would be just as prominent in right wing plebs. And the billionaires would have been served the same silver platter. It would have been a shit show that made the left look really bad, right now the left simply looks inept (they are, on purpose) and the right looks down right evil. In the end neither one of these parties serves the interest of the masses, it is simply not their priority. Sure they will pander and those people who are gullible enough will fall for team a or team b, and they will turn their attention away from the source of their problems and at each other as the rich summer together in the Hamptons while their haul summers in the Caymans tax free.
That was all well said.
Idle time is time that could be spent organizing and plotting. They *really* don't want us to have that power.
It wouldn't be too difficult to get a whole bunch of celebrities and the like to call for a general strike. I know it would be scarey and people would lose jobs but if you love your children then you need to do something.
I wish we did a 4 day / 40 hour work week. Getting Friday - Sunday off would be amazing.
My last company did 4x10. It’s a fair middle ground for some service jobs. You’re clearly not doing your best work by the end, but then again for service you don’t really need to be 100%. Warm bodies serve for the vast majority of customer service. Besides, adding on a couple more hours to the end doesn’t feel that much more after a acclimation period, and getting a 3 day weekend every week is more than worth it for some.
Well said.
FUCK 4 10's, I want 4 6's
4/7s would be perfect with 30 mins break ofc
I think most employers would be down for this, if you can make it easy. Half the staff off on Monday. Half the staff off on Friday.
4 day 36 hour is the future imo
My buddy works four 10's on that exact schedule and in a way I'm envious of him for the long weekend, though the 7am-5:30pm shift he works kinda sucks in my opinion. Currently, I'm on a bit of a weird schedule but I like it for the weekend I get - I work third shift (11pm-7am) from Monday night to Friday morning and then I work a day shift on Saturday. So basically my first day of work is Monday night at 11pm and my fourth day is done Friday morning at 7am. I get the majority of Friday off and I tend to stay up all day and sleep that night (whereas I'd normally sleep from 2pm-10pm on a weekday work night). Then, I work 7am-3pm on Saturday which isn't a big deal to me because what are you actually doing on a Saturday during that time? Then I have Saturday late afternoon and evening and then I'm off all day Sunday. Finally, I have off Monday all day until 11pm. So it's a bit of an odd schedule but I get almost 3 full days off and get a super easy work day on Saturday (very small shift, usually less work to do). Even third shift is great because it's a small shift and we're the only people there plus our supervisor to it's a very chill work environment. Gross, I'm making it sound like I enjoy work now. I don't, I just don't mind my job and I like being around several of my coworkers.
Short answer - old fashioned mindset of CEOs and business owners who don’t want the status quo to change. We could switch to a 4 day work week and not even notice a difference in productivity loss. In fact [it has been done before](https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2021/07/06/iceland-four-day-work-week/) and was successful, in some cases even seeing boosts in productivity. But as long as we have boomers running the majority of businesses and ass kissers supporting their old fashioned work habits, we probably won’t see any change. Nevertheless, don’t stop talking about it or bringing it up any chance you get. Everyone having a healthier work life balance is worth fighting for.
Exactly - can't disagree with any of this. We have to keep talking about it.
(Fiddler on the roof guy) It's Tradition
I just wanna add that the company I work for makes so much fucking money that they make my entire yearly salary every 7 seconds.
Amazon?
Nah, not Amazon.
To control and grind us down to nothingness. Ive found it’s better to stop wondering these things lol.
I wish I could stop.
Lol same no idea how though I mean I hope for a 4 day week one day because I really do think it would make a difference. But I have little hope.
It would make a difference and has been proven over and over again in trials that a shorter work day and week increases productivity as well as overall mental health for employees. I swear every time a new study pops up that talks about the benefits of shorter time at work I immediately start seeing an influx of articles about how more work is better, actually and that we'd be sad if we spent less time at work.
Hopefully one day!
I work at a large insurance company in Europe with a decent ethical sense regarding work conditions. In the past few years they have gradually reduced the 40 hour workweek to 34, while maintaining the same monthly salary. So far they have found that employees have been producing the same amount of value in a 34h week as in a 40h week (albeit that in white collar jobs that can be hard to measure). We also have the freedom to spread those 34 hours over 4 or 5 days. To be fair, we just don’t have managers who count hours, they trust us that we put in the required time. The point is that it changes the attitude of employees: if they don’t mind that I take off a few hours earlier once in a while, I also don’t mind when they ask me to put in some more hours at another time. Unfortunately, even in Europe this is not very common. Too many managers still don’t understand that paying a decent salary and giving people enough autonomy can change the whole corporate culture to something that is more pleasant for everyone, including management
That sounds amazing despite being basically the bare minimum change a company would be willing to do. Part of why I stay at my job is because I'm given slight autonomy with my work day, I can choose if I want to just do basic maintenance work all night or if I want to do other people's parts or I can put inspection stickers on cars all night. I appreciate that level of autonomy as it keeps my job from stagnating too much and although I dread going to work it isn't as bad as it could be if I were being micromanaged for my full shift. My job could really benefit from a shorter work day and week because it's labor-intensive and we're all completely exhausted by the end of our work day and so worn out at the end of the week most of us spend our time off sleeping.
Because it’s a stupid idea to have a 5 day/40 hour work week. That’s why we have it here in the US. Don’t get sick either… you definitely don’t want to get sick here. You’ll be bankrupt from the ambulance ride.
Because it means you don't have the time and energy left to realize how hard you're getting fucked, because if you did have the time, then you'd probably start doing things like realizing that there are people who are the root cause and facilitators of this situation and that people can be found at physical locations.
There are other options. Plenty of jobs that run 4/10s as in 4, 10hour shifts. They fucking rule if you don’t mind your blue collar job. Gives you just enough rest to rejuvenate your patience for your foreman for the following week. But I forgot. I’m in the wrong sub. Brain go burrrrrrr
I think four 10 hour days is the next step we're going to see companies take rather than outright reducing the work day and week. They think they need us there for 40 hours to squeeze every ounce of productivity they can out of while working a shorter day and week would actually be what makes us more productive.
It does work, lots of projects run on 4/10s depending your trade. With plenty of over time as well. I have always been more inclined to do overtime if I already hit 40 hours in 4 days. That extra day of dragging out bullshit, fuck that if I’m going to come in on a 6th day for OT. That’s the thing about blue collar, it’s the pay and scheduling that keeps us around as long as we are IMO.
Exactly and I've talked about that in other replies here. I do agree with you. I would definitely be more inclined to work OT if I worked four 10s because I'm already programmed to work five days anyway.
Yea well, that’s the problem. The typical “that makes way too much sense, let’s not do it”
Because most Americans have been brainwashed since birth. It's Time to deprogram!
We've had to fight tooth and nail to get a 40 hour work week as opposed to longer shifts, and the american public has not yet been able to effectively organize together for their collective interests. Not entirely peoples own fault, the powers that be have put quite a lot of work into keeping us as divided as possible. The tide seems to be starting to turn with the wave of strikes happening, so maybe there's hope yet.
France switched decades ago to a 35 hour week, similar to your 6 hour shifts proposal. It was directly to reduce unemployment, exactly like you point out. The US has a labor shortage AND issues with healthcare being tied to full time work. These are issues France didn't have any would be a large part of why there would be push back from a lot of folks.
Salaried is the indentured servant of this work era - they expect 50/60 hours so 40 is slacking - why you ask? Capitalism and greed….
Because the only thing corporate officers and shareholders care about is "more." No amount of profit is enough, you have to exceed the last quarter's profits. How can you exceed profits if you can't sell more products? Cut costs! If your expenses go down and your revenue stays level, your profit margin goes up! Shortsighted? Yes. Effective? Also yes. Allowing people to work fewer hours would reduce productivity, which would reduce profits. Hiring more workers means increasing the wage budget, which increases expenses and reduces profits. Long story short, we work a 40 hour work week because it's illegal to make us work *more* than 40 hours without paying overtime and companies *hate* paying overtime (since that cuts into profits)
Yeah. Recent studies have shown that employees working less hours actually increased their productivity which I mean, I can only imagine corporate's reaction to that news. I haven't heard much about that over the past couple months though so I'm sure they're doing everything they can to squash that news. As a matter of fact, right after that news started to drop, I noticed an increase in articles about "benefits of going back to the office", "why remote work is actually bad for you" or "your boss isn't mean or demanding, they're just under more stress than you are".
Because we’re stupid
There is no plan. The government lacks the motivation and power to enforce something like this. Businesses are just copycats. Why do schools still have summer breaks? These kind of norms won't change unless something drastic, along the lines of a world war or great depression, happens, and maybe not even then. No one is in control, the only thing in control is complacency.
They calculated the most efficient use of human labour and decided it's that. They haven't adjusted for 150 years of industrial revolution. Once they do that, it'll be 50 hours per week. Edit to add: Once everybody gets used to working from home, they'll be open to living at work, thus eliminating ten hours travel time, from your weekly schedule.
Because with unions having become rare in this country business owners and shareholders have no reason to consider worker’s interests when making decisions. If unions were the standard and not the exception here companies would actually have to compete to attract employees. But we refuse to unionize and so we work longer hours for less money. But in my opinion pizza parties make it all worth it. Lol
I do like pizza...wait fuck, they got me
Ignoring the fact that the population has grown, technology has also significantly advanced making overall productivity of a single worker increase exponentially each decade. A worker today could probably do 40 hours worth of 1920’s work in a single 8 hour shift. Instead we continue to work the same hours for the same pay (or less sometimes when you adjust for inflation) and the owner of the company pockets allllll the extra productivity.
Can't disagree with any of this at all.
This is why I refuse to stop doing shift work. Yeah, 12s suck, but having 4 days off a week is always nice.
Me cries in 5 day/50 hrs work week with occasional night wake-up due to system support
Fuck that!
Because you guys had to fight INSANELY hard to get that, and as culture you aren't willing to fight again
This is so true , I work in retail and we have so much down time that I literally sit and watch Netflix half the time. My coworker be knocking out sometimes two movies or or a series. We probably work like 4 of those 8 hours , its so slow it's ridiculous. Lol
1. tradition 2. a lack of representation in the workplace and government.
Its because they have been printing too much money making inflation skyrocket and to keep up with that they made the American house hold its slaves. First only one person of the couple needed to work, then both, then get second jobs, then work more than 40 hours , then weekends, work while sick , through a crisis or disaster (worked through a flood and a fire) … they just push the debt onto us without thinking we have a breaking point. My solution , raise minimum wage 20 hr, and make a full time job only 28 hours a week, reduce income tax, with two weeks paid vacation. meaning overtime is 40 , meaning you will have more time to enjoy your time here and be wealthy. With the time not working being the mode for creating jobs( though i hope people work for themselves and not corps) as well as “paying for” the deficit for national vacation time
How dare you take away from a billionaires yacht fund!
Too much free time would mean we get to invest in our own businesses and have enough time to think about how we will overthrow the capitalist regime
There’s a labor shortage in basically every industry right now… we can barely staff the shifts we have let alone drop everyone’s hours and bring in a whole new shift
Maybe those industries should pay their workers better, give them proper paid leave and benefits.
And cut into their profits? How dare you suggest such a thing! /s
Yes absolutely they should. Maybe they shouldn’t have let over a million people die from Covid too. But if you are asking, “why haven’t we shortened the working day” the answer in part is the persistent labor shortage, and particularly the skilled labor shortage
My workplace is starting maintenance techs at 38$ an hour and can’t even get applications. It’s not just pay, there just isn’t enough skilled labor to go around.
Yep, places like that are happy to pay skilled workers well but are rarely willing to train them, while the apprenticeships unions run are always competitive to get into. They all complain about the labor shortage but aren’t willing to do anything about it
Most of our labor force is union, and we will pay for education. Not sure what else there is to do. I’m recommended people I know who need work and a few told me they didn’t want to work with “a bunch of dumb rednecks”. With that attitude they can stay poor.
Not gonna lie, you had me in the first half. Figured you for a pro-work person lurking the antiwork sub lol
I'm sorry I don't understand the question... I don't think we do. I think most people's schedules are random and capricious in their inconsistency.
I am wondering what the number of people have to do with it? You make the money you make based on the hours and production you earn the business. Without the production you earn the business, the business would not operate the way it does and employ the people it does. My business, like all businesses exist because the person at the top is taking a huge risk to own and operate said business. They only do it, because they have the opportunity to make large sums of money that makes "their" lives more comfortable. You work there because your other options are not as good or profitable. You don't have to work there. You can work somewhere else. But again, if you do not have the skills it is all going to be similar for the rest of your life, unless you are the one willing to take on the giant risk of business ownership. So either get damn good at what you do, or go out on a limb and start your own gigg. Either way, those are the two only paths to success.
Well said. But it is a wasted effort here.
Well someone has to say it. People believe the working world should just spread their legs for them when they arrive. Doesn't work that way.
That's pretty much exactly what I tell any newcomers to my field. I'm an auto tech. I tell them there isn't much money in just regular auto repair. Sure, the place I'm at currently starts techs off at 18/hr with no certs or insp. licenses. You can easily make over 20/hr just by getting your state insp./emissions licenses and an ASE or two. But nowadays, 18-22/hr is a survival wage, not a livable wage, depending on where you live, at least. Regardless, I tell the new hires that the need to either get very, very good at one specific specialty or they need to open their own shop, that's really the only ways to make good money in this industry.
Never assume the rest of the world does anything the same as the USA lol we all just laugh at your country.
As you should. I love living here but there's no denying we've basically become the laughingstock of the world.
The people are fine, i have lots of relatives and friends there, but so many unique silly things. 2 eighty year olds competing for President hahaha, most democracies elect people in their 40s
because complaining on reddit wont have any real effect
ok
u disagree?
We're allowed to complain. We're allowed to talk about how we feel about the world. We're allowed to point out flaws in the systems that govern us. Talking about things is a hell of a lot better than holding it all in.
u are allowed but it does not lead to solutions, only temporary relief
In my field it’s because the plant runs 24-7. The work is never done, and I work over occasionally, though on slow days I’ll leave early or come in late. The production workers work on 4 on/ 4 off, 12 he shifts with 4 separate shifts for full coverage. I’d like a 4 day work week but I also don’t want to be here for 10 hours.
Agreed. I want either four eight hour shifts or 4 six hour shifts to become the new full time norm.
Could be worse; in the service industry, managers are expected to work 50 hour weeks, with no overtime payment after 40 hours. Why? The FLSA has definitions for exempt and nonexempt employees. Hourly employees are ALWAYS nonexempt, meaning they're supposed to be paid overtime for hours over 40. Salary employees are almost ALWAYS exempt, meaning overtime is meaningless in terms of additional pay. It's why most restaurant managers are salaried; you can then mandate 50-60-70 hour work weeks, without paying a cent more. To be fair, this is true in many industries, but it's more prevalent in the restaurant world.
I can't speak for the restaurant industry but at the company I work for, managers are expected to show up an hour before their shift starts and stay for at least one hour after their shift ends to ensure smooth shift transitions. Many times they end up staying for 2-3 hours after their shift ends because there is just so much bullshit work to be done. I'm not calling it bullshit work - they do. It's kind of a shame because the managers are salaried meaning they're expected to work all these extra hours and they still only get paid 40 hours, there is no overtime pay for managers. So even the managers are getting screwed by corporate.
I do a 36/48 hr work week and it’s amazing. I only work 14 days a month
Just a couple of reasons I can think of. More employees creates more costs for a company. Like more benefits payed to employees. Higher workman's comp insurance just to name a couple. Also most companies can't find enough people to work now, never mind trying to fill another whole shift. I personally would rather work 4 10 hour shifts.
The whole reason companies can't find enough people to work are because they aren't paying enough or giving good enough benefits. They cry that no one wants to work anymore while not providing an environment that anyone would want to sacrifice their time in.
Because they don't do anything that will benefit you unless you force them to, and right now we can't force them to do shit.
Because any less and no one would be able to eat or pay bills
Well...I'm pretty sure a big reason is that unions managed to get it systematized at that schedule a hundred years ago then unions lost power due to many BS and so when it became productively possible to argue it lower, there was no power to do so legitimately.
I wish I only worked 40 hours a week.🥲
Me in Turkey: You only work 40 hrs?
Why would we not allow it? We do not mandate it either.
Here's my pitch- 36 hour work week **But** lunch breaks are paid. That means you could have four 9 hour days, but they're really only 30 minutes longer than you're working right now. Other amounts of time are possible. You get 15 minutes of paid break for every 2 hours worked. It's also easy to split for people who work 12 hour shifts.
I consider myself lucky that at my current job I get a paid half hour lunch break so I only technically work seven and a half hours (eight hour work day) compared to the more average eight and half hour work day with an unpaid lunch.
Who works 40 hours? The last three manufacturing companies I’ve done consulting at, their line employees were all working 12 hours a day 6 days a week. And then they hired me to figure out why they have a “retention problem” lmao
At some point the system will crash and probably we are closer than we think. Birth rates are crashing in the western world simply because everyone are overworked and have no time or money to raise the next generation. And no one in power wants to admit that this is the main reason, instead they write stupid articles wondering what could have caused it. People used to be able to have a nice house and several children on one income. Now that’s hard even on two incomes, and if both parents work full time who will take care of the home and the children?
Exactly. I'm 36 and have already decided that I'm not having children. I'm struggling to get by myself, there's no way I could afford a child and I wouldn't want to bring one into this current world anyway.