Might I suggest that if a company needs a bailout, they seek it from the Shareholders? If they are unwilling to bail it out and the Government does, the Government should have equity in the company bailed out.
Even an interest free loan with generous repayment terms would of been better , absolutely terrible deal.
Of course he won’t pay it back it effects
Profitability and thus his bonus structure.
Both parties like the wallets of the elite and neither are doing anything significant to combat rising inequality and off shoring of corporate profit. Both parties still agree to subsidize many of the 600 multinationals who pay no tax in Australia
This is what smaller companies often do, they dilute stock to raise capital. I raised this point several times and have been downvoted for it. The government should not be giving freebies to large corporations, even during extreme circumstances like COVID. If your company hasn't prepared itself for shocks to the system, that's their problem (poor management), not ours.
That easily solved though. Build some independent bailout entity with a clear charter and disposal policy, and give the shares to them with revenue from dividends and sales come back into general revenue.
Hell could just let the RBA manage it, give them another lever to pull.
Did anyone actually read the article? The money from the government came in the form of a contract to fly their planes for patients during Covid, and then the jobseeker payments.
Are we calling for any other businesses to repay money they received from the government to continue operations during Covid? Or to repay jobseeker?
The money will be recouped over the next 5 years in tax with ease.
Shouldn't have been a "bailout", should have been a "buy in". If the public money had been used to buy a (non-voting) stake in the company, it would have been repayable (by selling that stake later) and could have generated dividends in the interim.
Exactly.
TBF this is the governments mistake. Why would Qantas pay back something that wasn’t a loan? That takes money out of shareholder pockets, and most of those shareholders are the Australian public (either directly or through super, etc…)
My personal favourite was when the onion eating prick replaced the parliamentary fleet of Holden's with new BMWs and his daughter got a contact with BMW.... shady bastards.
I don’t know anything about the contract, but I will take your word for it. As I understood though, Holden submitted a non-conforming tender submission for the comcars.
Well was it? If I am putting out a tender for a multimillion dollar contract, do you think that this should be considered in tender evaluation?
Unless you have something concrete to bring to the discussion table?
Again, as bad the optics are every member of parliament who gets a chairman’s lounge membership gets to nominate a family member who also gets it.
Hate the system, hate qantas schmoozing, hate our surprisingly lax gift rules, but don’t think albo is doing anything special.
>In fact, it’s probably more instructive to list who is not a member.
>Labor senator and former national secretary of the Transport Workers’ Union, Tony Sheldon, has not accepted a membership. Greens MP Max Chandler-Mather is an outlier in his party because he is not a member. Nor is independent Tasmanian senator Jacqui Lambie (although she didn’t reject a membership - it was reportedly revoked after she lost her cool at a Qantas staffer).
Like him or not Chandler- Mather walks the talk. Props to Sheldon as well.
https://www.afr.com/politics/federal/what-exactly-is-the-qantas-chairman-s-lounge-and-how-do-you-join-20230803-p5dtp3?btis
Let me rephrase; I am not aware of any other PM who has had membership gifted to family members. Just because we are talking about Albanese doesn’t mean that we need to go searching for dirt on Morrison. If he did, let’s hear specifically what he did. Don’t just leave a floating implication.
I’m not even calling this dirt on Morrison. It’s a “fringe benefit” of no cost to the taxpayer that comes with that level of membership, Qantas allows that level of membership to nominate a family member. Not using it is giving Qantas more free money.
Okay, thanks. I am just saying that the Qatar Air, the public support for the ‘yes’ campaign and the Chairman’s Lounge is really bad optics for a bloke who has ‘integrity’ as his public perception.
The fact that you’re calling out the integrity of a man for supporting the Yes campaign he pledged to bring to the people in his election campaign for actually supporting said campaign honestly says enough about your views here.
I only brought up the support for the yes campaign because this happened at the same time as the other two events. Try this technique; calmly read what is in front of you and resist the urge to leap to the conclusion that you have already made subconsciously.
And the fact that your theory on this is IDENTICAL to a statement made by the Greens an hour earlier (which I was unaware of at the time) says enough about YOUR views here.
I have been pretty even handed on this threads. You are reciting party slogans.
Did you give membership to chairman lounge to ALL politicians and their families? Do you give lucrative cushy jobs to retired politicians? Didn't think so /s
I mean, the whole point of capitalism is to strip everyone of their money. It's evil and completely unnecessary but in the end you don't have to spend your money on flights.
Our next holiday is a road trip. Fuck Qantas. Fuck Jetstar and fuck airports in general. Everything is too expensive overseas now anyway.
Time to introduce a bailout tax on every company that ever received a bailout. Let em try to spin that and convince the gullible Murdoch-reading muppets that that's unfair.
There’s a phd in the wealth transfer that occurred during the pandemic, both here and abroad.
I suspect there’d be a fair amount of protesting that would arise with the findings
All this while Qantas steals my money. Double charged for international flights for a family, and they won't refund it. They've acknowledged the charge many times, promised refunds over and over. We've spent 10s of hours now on the phone navigating their fucking useless customer service teams, still no money. Absolutely unacceptable to be out of pocket $2500 in this economic climate because they can't be arsed to pay it back. And they have the audacity to still market as the Spirit of Australia.
OK sure. I'm ruling out paying back my university fee 'bailout'. I'm ruling out paying back my society participant 'bailout'. Scummy fuck should be jailed and Qantas should be nationalised.
A company on its knees begging and the government can’t come up with term of a low interest pay back scheme should the company hit certain performance targets and executive payout scrutiny?
We do that deal with hecs/help that once you make a certain amount you make greater payments back to individuals but we somehow cannot get that deal from big business?
One point is to keep Australians employed so why isn’t that also a stipulation of the loan somewhere in there that x amount of jobs will remain onshore such as service/maintenance and even catering/cleaning contracts etc going to Aussie owned ?
yeah i was doing a bunch of work for the airlines at the time and went through this weird situation of having to just mass delete thousands of accounts as they were just mass sacking people
glad this little goblin still makes like 20+ million a year and expects the public to bail them out whenever shit goes wrong
Maybe the little cunt can add a surcharge on tickets to pay it back. The execs and shareholders will need a slice of it - for helping aussie taxpayers and champagne spas etc.
Fuck QANTAS, open up the skies to all.
the other stealth handout during covid was the state gov hired mostly the Qantas air crew and so on for “contact tracing” etc so Qantas did not have to pay them anything while airline work ceased. the moment things got back to normal Joyce could pick them all up again, thanks for the free ride, taxpayers.
Harvey Norman, Honda and Mercedes among many other giant corps that took billions in handouts over Covid but actually made profits AND DID NOT PAY AUSTRALIANS BACK.
Imagine if a wage earner claimed an extra $500 from the ATO! Gaol time.
Morrison and his cronies created this terrible Jobkeeper legislation without a claw back clause.
Criminals.
Alan Joyce is an elitist PoS. Of course his company will use shareholder money to campaign for the voice to please Albo whilst not returning taxpayer dollars.
Of course. I cancelled my 2 tickets, and they kept $400 per ticket as a fee. Which is bullshit cause they will resell those seats at the same or higher price and double dip.
Singapore Airlines reported record profits and paid their staff bonuses to the equivalent of 6 months wages. I wonder if Qantas will do the same , I highly doubt it
I applied for a job at Qantas and they wanted me to pay $400 out of my own pocket for a pre employment medical. Not tax deductible either as it is pre employment. I told the recruiter why should I have to pay to get a job with a company that makes multi billion dollar profits year on year. The talent recruiter's response. "We cannot make exceptions for people that don't want to pay". I withdrew my application. To this day I see they are still advertising the role. Not many takers I guess.
Most big reputable corporations and even smaller businesses pay for your pre employment medicals but not Qantas.
This is purely on the government to hold them to account. If they want the money back they should ask for it. If he/ they say no, then make their corporate life a mess.
I am sure the ATO is willing to slap on the rubber gloves and go to work on all the execs.
To play the devil’s advocate, if they lost say 5 billion during covid, then the profit they made this year might still not put them in the black. That said, they should 100% be made to pay back the bailout even if it takes years.
I don't understand this whole "bailout" idea circulating in the media. Part of the money Qantas got was to keep planes flying during covid for essential medicine and patient transfer when literally no one was on the plane due to lockdowns.
The other part of the bailout is jobkeeper which I'm not opposed to the idea of now profitable companies paying some of that back but it's not exactly a Qantas specific issue. All of those combined don't really sound like a bailout to me
You can’t be serious. Hundreds of large corporations took money during Covid and made profits but because Morrison did not put a clawback clause in the legislation, they never have to pay it back. it is criminal.
My small to medium size business did not claim because I believed I would be too close to the line. And I did not want to pay it back or do the wrong thing. What an idiot I was when there was wholesale fraud going on promoted by Morrison’s government.
Hence why I said in my original comment that the paying back of jobkeeper by profitable businesses is something I'm supportive of but not a specific issue to Qantas.
So many companies that claimed the jobkeeper subsidy have been posting record profits these last couple of weeks but this idea of paying back the "covid bailout" has only come up when Qantas is discussed
Edit: spelling
Why would he pay it back if it’s a choice?
If the government gave me a loan and said pay it back if you want to…. I’d keep the money!
Imo they should take equity in the company.
Qantas has a cartel like grip on Australian air travel industry and provides a text book example of how regulatory capture works.
Same with our banks and major supermarket chains.
The legislation that enabled the handouts had no provision to recover anything over time. This is comes down to the 'good economic managers' not having any idea on how to manage. So as frustrating as it is Joyce is correct , there is no obligation to pay any of this back.
There is no option other than to recover the funds via targeted super profits taxation. To retrospectivly amendment the covid stimulus legislation and force a repayment by all would have unintended consequences.
I find it hard to believe that any government payment with Centrelink or in this case stimulus payments would lack such a provision being this is really a bread and butter government function.
I get the impression though they haven't paid any corporate tax since covid.
'Mr Joyce said he believed Qantas would be paying corporate tax again in 2025.'
Might I suggest that if a company needs a bailout, they seek it from the Shareholders? If they are unwilling to bail it out and the Government does, the Government should have equity in the company bailed out.
that's sounds like capitalism
socialise the losses, privatise the profits.
That sounds great if you're on the right side of it. Doesn't sound great if you're on the other end though. Does it. 90% of us are on the wrong end.
I’d say it’s closer to 99%. capitalism for the plebs, socialism for the billionaires.
Bloody joke they didn't do it as a loan or at least acquire some equity in the company... Now record profits and more share buybacks, what a rort.
Even an interest free loan with generous repayment terms would of been better , absolutely terrible deal. Of course he won’t pay it back it effects Profitability and thus his bonus structure.
Well maybe not interest-free, they could index it, like they did to every student with a HELP loan
Yeah … our poor kids have to pay for an education, but not a commercial business
Would have
Just more money for their donors and the big end of town
The sooner people realise gov protect business profits before the general population the better.
Which party was head of the government at the time?
Two heads of the same snake
Neoliberalism is only subscribed to by the LNP, Labor at least realise that it needs some form of counterbalance, instead of unlimited handouts
Both parties like the wallets of the elite and neither are doing anything significant to combat rising inequality and off shoring of corporate profit. Both parties still agree to subsidize many of the 600 multinationals who pay no tax in Australia
This is what smaller companies often do, they dilute stock to raise capital. I raised this point several times and have been downvoted for it. The government should not be giving freebies to large corporations, even during extreme circumstances like COVID. If your company hasn't prepared itself for shocks to the system, that's their problem (poor management), not ours.
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That easily solved though. Build some independent bailout entity with a clear charter and disposal policy, and give the shares to them with revenue from dividends and sales come back into general revenue. Hell could just let the RBA manage it, give them another lever to pull.
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Smaller ones aren't really getting specific targeted bailouts though. They're getting legitimate general programmes.
Correct. If the government bails it out then they deserve a stake back in said company.
Did anyone actually read the article? The money from the government came in the form of a contract to fly their planes for patients during Covid, and then the jobseeker payments. Are we calling for any other businesses to repay money they received from the government to continue operations during Covid? Or to repay jobseeker? The money will be recouped over the next 5 years in tax with ease.
Shouldn't have been a "bailout", should have been a "buy in". If the public money had been used to buy a (non-voting) stake in the company, it would have been repayable (by selling that stake later) and could have generated dividends in the interim.
We’ve got frydenberg (does anyone remember him?) to thank for that. 100% should have been a buy-in
Are you implying that the liberal government aren't that good with economical management?
Never have been. Even Howard sold the sheep leaving us with no wool.
They are. Just not for the Australian public.
Exactly. TBF this is the governments mistake. Why would Qantas pay back something that wasn’t a loan? That takes money out of shareholder pockets, and most of those shareholders are the Australian public (either directly or through super, etc…)
What a cunt of a so called human... Cunt needs to take a long walk off a short plank.... Bring on Qatar airlines
No more flights for Qatar, Albo’s son gets membership to the Qantas Chairman’s Lounge. Nothing to see here.
My personal favourite was when the onion eating prick replaced the parliamentary fleet of Holden's with new BMWs and his daughter got a contact with BMW.... shady bastards.
I don’t know anything about the contract, but I will take your word for it. As I understood though, Holden submitted a non-conforming tender submission for the comcars.
Never heard that bit about non conforming tender. She was definitely being paid by them as a brand ambassador.
Okay. I am certain I read at the time that that Holden submitted a non-conforming tender.
Ah the old "nonconforming tender" excuse 🙄 When did Australia become so gullible.
Well was it? If I am putting out a tender for a multimillion dollar contract, do you think that this should be considered in tender evaluation? Unless you have something concrete to bring to the discussion table?
Again, as bad the optics are every member of parliament who gets a chairman’s lounge membership gets to nominate a family member who also gets it. Hate the system, hate qantas schmoozing, hate our surprisingly lax gift rules, but don’t think albo is doing anything special.
Yeah, but just imagine the heightened integrity the pollie would get by turning down such an obvious bribe. I really thought Albo was different.
>In fact, it’s probably more instructive to list who is not a member. >Labor senator and former national secretary of the Transport Workers’ Union, Tony Sheldon, has not accepted a membership. Greens MP Max Chandler-Mather is an outlier in his party because he is not a member. Nor is independent Tasmanian senator Jacqui Lambie (although she didn’t reject a membership - it was reportedly revoked after she lost her cool at a Qantas staffer). Like him or not Chandler- Mather walks the talk. Props to Sheldon as well. https://www.afr.com/politics/federal/what-exactly-is-the-qantas-chairman-s-lounge-and-how-do-you-join-20230803-p5dtp3?btis
Good point, I didn't know this.
No, they all have some form of grift. As you say, the optics on this aren’t great.
Who did ScoMo gift his family membership to? Jenny I presume?
I am unaware of any other PMs who have got their kids into the Chairman’s Lounge.
That wasn’t the question. Would it also be a drama if he nominated his girlfriend as she’s not his wife?
Let me rephrase; I am not aware of any other PM who has had membership gifted to family members. Just because we are talking about Albanese doesn’t mean that we need to go searching for dirt on Morrison. If he did, let’s hear specifically what he did. Don’t just leave a floating implication.
I’m not even calling this dirt on Morrison. It’s a “fringe benefit” of no cost to the taxpayer that comes with that level of membership, Qantas allows that level of membership to nominate a family member. Not using it is giving Qantas more free money.
Okay, thanks. I am just saying that the Qatar Air, the public support for the ‘yes’ campaign and the Chairman’s Lounge is really bad optics for a bloke who has ‘integrity’ as his public perception.
The fact that you’re calling out the integrity of a man for supporting the Yes campaign he pledged to bring to the people in his election campaign for actually supporting said campaign honestly says enough about your views here.
I only brought up the support for the yes campaign because this happened at the same time as the other two events. Try this technique; calmly read what is in front of you and resist the urge to leap to the conclusion that you have already made subconsciously.
And the fact that your theory on this is IDENTICAL to a statement made by the Greens an hour earlier (which I was unaware of at the time) says enough about YOUR views here. I have been pretty even handed on this threads. You are reciting party slogans.
This bloke is a little goblin. He has always been a prick.
Fucking cunt.
Socialism for the oligarchs, capitalism for the plebs.
If I do it the govt will want the money back with interest. Big corporations do it, govt goes yes my lord this is all yours.
Did you give membership to chairman lounge to ALL politicians and their families? Do you give lucrative cushy jobs to retired politicians? Didn't think so /s
Don’t need the /s
Seems many large companies have profited post COVID. Just sayin'..
Just remember their profits go up, your savings go down.
I mean, the whole point of capitalism is to strip everyone of their money. It's evil and completely unnecessary but in the end you don't have to spend your money on flights. Our next holiday is a road trip. Fuck Qantas. Fuck Jetstar and fuck airports in general. Everything is too expensive overseas now anyway.
Time to introduce a bailout tax on every company that ever received a bailout. Let em try to spin that and convince the gullible Murdoch-reading muppets that that's unfair.
There’s a phd in the wealth transfer that occurred during the pandemic, both here and abroad. I suspect there’d be a fair amount of protesting that would arise with the findings
Dirty cunt.
CEO of CUNTAS
Complete cunt, and the latest example of /r/LateStageCapitalism
Ah yes, a government pissing away our tax money without even a single share to show for it - classic capitalism.
I didn't realise we were governed by Qantas. I do agree however that Qantas never should have had a bailout.
We aren't. Qantas couldn't get tax money unless the people we're governed by chose to give it to them.
All this while Qantas steals my money. Double charged for international flights for a family, and they won't refund it. They've acknowledged the charge many times, promised refunds over and over. We've spent 10s of hours now on the phone navigating their fucking useless customer service teams, still no money. Absolutely unacceptable to be out of pocket $2500 in this economic climate because they can't be arsed to pay it back. And they have the audacity to still market as the Spirit of Australia.
Someone on another forum said lodge a small claim costs $100 or so, then Qantas takes it seriously
OK sure. I'm ruling out paying back my university fee 'bailout'. I'm ruling out paying back my society participant 'bailout'. Scummy fuck should be jailed and Qantas should be nationalised.
And when you increase your earnings and pay more income tax, it will be paid back quicker. Edit: s/
A company on its knees begging and the government can’t come up with term of a low interest pay back scheme should the company hit certain performance targets and executive payout scrutiny? We do that deal with hecs/help that once you make a certain amount you make greater payments back to individuals but we somehow cannot get that deal from big business? One point is to keep Australians employed so why isn’t that also a stipulation of the loan somewhere in there that x amount of jobs will remain onshore such as service/maintenance and even catering/cleaning contracts etc going to Aussie owned ?
Arsehole does arsehole thing
yeah i was doing a bunch of work for the airlines at the time and went through this weird situation of having to just mass delete thousands of accounts as they were just mass sacking people glad this little goblin still makes like 20+ million a year and expects the public to bail them out whenever shit goes wrong
Maybe the little cunt can add a surcharge on tickets to pay it back. The execs and shareholders will need a slice of it - for helping aussie taxpayers and champagne spas etc. Fuck QANTAS, open up the skies to all.
australian leaders keep proving how low they think of the population
Greedy twat should fuckoff. Australian government should own 2 billion dollars worth of Qantas at pandemic prices, so about 3.14 billion worth today.
So do you think that any company that was handed out jobkeeper during covid, the government should now take some of their profit as their own?
the other stealth handout during covid was the state gov hired mostly the Qantas air crew and so on for “contact tracing” etc so Qantas did not have to pay them anything while airline work ceased. the moment things got back to normal Joyce could pick them all up again, thanks for the free ride, taxpayers.
TIL Alan Joyce is a cunt.
The word 'gobshite' was coined just for such an individual as this.
Alan's been drinking at the same wine bar as Gerry Harvey,huh?
Profits should be rolled into standing up an alternative called Ansett, can't believe they don't have to pay back the bailout, Fkn bullshit
Harvey Norman, Honda and Mercedes among many other giant corps that took billions in handouts over Covid but actually made profits AND DID NOT PAY AUSTRALIANS BACK. Imagine if a wage earner claimed an extra $500 from the ATO! Gaol time. Morrison and his cronies created this terrible Jobkeeper legislation without a claw back clause. Criminals.
Fuck hes a grub, take our money when their in trouble but wont share the ritches when they make a profit or pay back their dues... pathetic
i can see logic in his response - which part of the money do they pay back??
Alan Joyce is a cunt.
Alan Joyce is an elitist PoS. Of course his company will use shareholder money to campaign for the voice to please Albo whilst not returning taxpayer dollars.
this guy has been a scourge on our country since he shut down the airline to break to unions, leaving thousands of people stranded
Of course. I cancelled my 2 tickets, and they kept $400 per ticket as a fee. Which is bullshit cause they will resell those seats at the same or higher price and double dip.
Singapore Airlines reported record profits and paid their staff bonuses to the equivalent of 6 months wages. I wonder if Qantas will do the same , I highly doubt it
I applied for a job at Qantas and they wanted me to pay $400 out of my own pocket for a pre employment medical. Not tax deductible either as it is pre employment. I told the recruiter why should I have to pay to get a job with a company that makes multi billion dollar profits year on year. The talent recruiter's response. "We cannot make exceptions for people that don't want to pay". I withdrew my application. To this day I see they are still advertising the role. Not many takers I guess. Most big reputable corporations and even smaller businesses pay for your pre employment medicals but not Qantas.
Of course Country ain't gonna fix itself
Bring back the Gallows
This is purely on the government to hold them to account. If they want the money back they should ask for it. If he/ they say no, then make their corporate life a mess. I am sure the ATO is willing to slap on the rubber gloves and go to work on all the execs.
To play the devil’s advocate, if they lost say 5 billion during covid, then the profit they made this year might still not put them in the black. That said, they should 100% be made to pay back the bailout even if it takes years.
Fair enough. That makes sense.
Sleazy little shit.
I don't understand this whole "bailout" idea circulating in the media. Part of the money Qantas got was to keep planes flying during covid for essential medicine and patient transfer when literally no one was on the plane due to lockdowns. The other part of the bailout is jobkeeper which I'm not opposed to the idea of now profitable companies paying some of that back but it's not exactly a Qantas specific issue. All of those combined don't really sound like a bailout to me
You can’t be serious. Hundreds of large corporations took money during Covid and made profits but because Morrison did not put a clawback clause in the legislation, they never have to pay it back. it is criminal. My small to medium size business did not claim because I believed I would be too close to the line. And I did not want to pay it back or do the wrong thing. What an idiot I was when there was wholesale fraud going on promoted by Morrison’s government.
Hence why I said in my original comment that the paying back of jobkeeper by profitable businesses is something I'm supportive of but not a specific issue to Qantas. So many companies that claimed the jobkeeper subsidy have been posting record profits these last couple of weeks but this idea of paying back the "covid bailout" has only come up when Qantas is discussed Edit: spelling
Why would he pay it back if it’s a choice? If the government gave me a loan and said pay it back if you want to…. I’d keep the money! Imo they should take equity in the company.
What makes it worse is, he has that fucking face
Privatise the profits, Socialise the losses Welcome to capitalism. Time for the government to seize the asset they paid for
Ah, another company enjoying the fuck around phase. Well, I think we might actually reach a point in this country where you may start to find out...
Qantas has a cartel like grip on Australian air travel industry and provides a text book example of how regulatory capture works. Same with our banks and major supermarket chains.
Of course he does. He's a fucking scumbag.
The legislation that enabled the handouts had no provision to recover anything over time. This is comes down to the 'good economic managers' not having any idea on how to manage. So as frustrating as it is Joyce is correct , there is no obligation to pay any of this back. There is no option other than to recover the funds via targeted super profits taxation. To retrospectivly amendment the covid stimulus legislation and force a repayment by all would have unintended consequences. I find it hard to believe that any government payment with Centrelink or in this case stimulus payments would lack such a provision being this is really a bread and butter government function. I get the impression though they haven't paid any corporate tax since covid. 'Mr Joyce said he believed Qantas would be paying corporate tax again in 2025.'