One of the other comments mentioned myomer, and almost hit the nail on the head. Myomer *combined with* the neurohelmet and gyro were the groundbreaking tech. It made one person able to do the work of 3+, and allowed a humanoid tank to be stronger, faster and more agile than anything that had come before.
'Mechs are *strong*, stronger than anything running on hydraulics can be, and the neurohelmet gives an experienced pilot a level of control and dexterity impossible with traditional control systems.
I really wish there was more consistency in the fluff for how agile a 'Mech is. They shouldn't be anime Mecha agile, but knight in armor agile is where a 50 tonner *should* sit. A *Griffon* being able to advance fluidly, use cover and either crouch or crawl would remove basically every advantage a tank has over a 'Mech. It would also put a final end to all the "it's just a worse tank!" comments that do the rounds here regularly. It's not a tank, it's a SOLDIER who is just very tall and carries a shitload of armor and weapons.
IIRC, there is a world in the Lyran Commonwealth that hosted 'Mech based Games up to an including calisthenics and agility trials. 'Mechs doing obstacle courses, jumping jacks and such. Hopefully someone can help me out with the name, I think I remember reading the Sarna article about it a couple of years ago?
EDIT: thanks to u/spolieris for suggesting Noisiel as the planet. Definitely the world I was thinking of!
Honestly, while I love the video games dearly, I think they're more than a little responsible for the perception and continuation in the fiction that 'Mechs move like walking tanks. The engine and hardware limitations of the older games meant they couldn't show 'Mechs doing anything more than cruising around like tanks with legs, and that seems to have stuck.
EDIT: formatting.
The planet is Noisiel.
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Noisiel
The Noisiel Summer Mech Games. The Battletech books Chaos Born and Chaos Forged about the Merc unit the Chaos Irregulars had them go to Noisiel and join the Games playing Mech Chess to attract clients.
But in the book they watch Mech Soccer, obstacle course races, and other sports as well as Light Mechs with modified actuators and suped up gyros, that could do gymnastics and martial arts.
Not gonna lie, you describing mech calisthenics reminds me so much of episode 1 of gunbuster. The damned robots doing jumping Jack's and jump rope at the high school track and field.
I haven't seen it but I can imagine it. And it's making my BattleTech nerd brain fizz in nice ways.
If 'Mechs *can't* achieve this level of agility, honestly the "just a walking tank" naysayers would be right. That isn't allowed to be true, otherwise what's the point of BattleTech..? 😅
The world you are thinking of is probably Noisel (https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Noisiel) which featured in a battlecorps short story (part of the Chaos Irregulars series) and has since been fleshed out in other publications (including a Touring the Stars pdf)
I think the 'worse tank' POV comes from a lot of people who are imagining mechs moving the way they do in the MechWarrior games, since that is many peoples first exposure to mechs.
Agreed! See the final paragraph of my original comment. As I said, engine and hardware limitations made it impossible for videogame 'Mechs to be presented "properly" so they went with the best they could do. Again, I absolutely love the games. Microsoft, if you're listening, release a remaster collection of ***all*** the old MechWarrior and MechCommander games and expansions to run on modern hardware and OS and you can charge me $1000 and I'll pay it no question.
I believe you might be talking about Outreach (could be wrong) and was formally a Capellan world before being taken by the Federated Commonwealth, then granted to the Wolf Dragoons.
It might be - the SLDF Martial Olympiad might have included these competitions... Maybe it was in one of Sven van der Plank's videos then, because the Sarna pages on Outreach and the Olympiad don't mention such events directly.
I had a feeling it might have featured in a novel somewhere too, maybe a Merc commander looking for recruits or a recruit Merc looking to get hired, but that turned up no easy leads.
There are at least a few worlds that have or had Mech contests of various sorts. I remember at least one mentioned somewhere in the old Periphery sourcebook, and I know I've stumbled across more randomly following links on Sarna.
Well, it's right there in the fluff:
> A BattleMech is an armoured combat vehicle. That's right. Don't be fooled by the sculpted armor and lifelike motions of the limbs. A BattleMech is just a tank on legs.
\- Techmanual p.31. (2022 edition)
The TechManual is also quite outspoken about the fact that conventional tanks are by no means inferior(p. 90f).
As so often in military tactics it's less about "strenght" but more about roles, as mechs can manage very difficult terrain even difficult for vehicles.
Tex made in his video about the Mackie a very good point that psychology was a key factor. Thanks to it's very light build a mech is quite large compared to it's weight and these things strike fear into the OpFor lowering the moral.
Your quote undermines the very point you are trying to use it to make:
> A BattleMech is an armoured combat vehicle. That's right. ***Don't be fooled by the sculpted armor and lifelike motions of the limbs.*** A BattleMech is just a tank on legs.
Emphasis mine. If the limbs move in a lifelike way, then the 'Mech is *much more agile than a tank*. I would also want more of the context around the quote - it reads like it's an *in universe* quote from someone, and as such could be biased or incomplete.
I didn't say that conventional vehicles were inferior. I was criticising the view of a (to me) surprising number of people on this sub, that *'Mechs* should be inferior due to their height, ground pressure, etc.
As I said in my original post, the inconsistency in the fluff regarding 'Mechs' movements is a serious problem for this discussion. Canon examples, e.g. the Noisiel Games, 'Mechwarriors being able to use 'Mech hands to pick up people without hurting them, etc., completely defy the legged tank depiction in the video games. Even the fact that the tabletop rules allow for a 'Mechwarrior to sift through building debris to find a girder to use as a club suggests a significant level of dexterity and fine control. If 'Mechs are as agile and dextrous as they are, in my opinion, *properly* described, they are far more than "tanks on legs".
>Emphasis mine. If the limbs move in a lifelike way, then the 'Mech is
>
>much more agile than a tank
>
>. I would also want more of the context around the quote - it reads like it's an
>
>in universe
>
> quote from someone, and as such could be biased or incomplete.
The quote is from an in universe lecture of the character Prof. Dietrich Mathers on in introduction into BattleMechs and also trying to debunk myths about it.
To give some more context on the quote:
> Your recent problems originate not only from people shouting at you for technical errors, but also for violating cultural taboos about the BattleMech. For example, in some 'net halls, I would be wise to wear asbestos undies if I dared to call those shining magnificent titans of war something so crass as "giant armored robots toting huge guns". So to strip away the cultural baggage that BattleMechs have acquired over the past-half millennium let me give you this enhanced definition of the BattleMech: A BattleMech is an armored combat vehicle. That's right. Don't be fooled by the sculpted armor and lifelike motions of the limbs. A BattleMech is just a tank on legs. The arms are complicated turrets but turrets nonetheless. The legs are a complicated all-terrain propulsion system. And a BattleMech's armor guns and armor do not significantly differ from those found on any other combat vehicles use today.
> I didn't say that conventional vehicles were inferior. I was criticising the view of a (to me) surprising number of people on this sub, that 'Mechs should be inferior due to their height, ground pressure, etc.
I actually agree with you on that, but the point I make here is, that the fluff is making the point as well that mechs are just a special kind of tank, but this is not meant in a degrading sense either.
The real problem is the "inferior" part as this is the very thing of the Total Warfare and TechManual books try to explain: Namely combined arms warfare. Each piece of the puzzle plays a key role. Mechs are more versatile on difficult terrain and as you pointed out can do things normal tanks couldn't like using a tree as weapon. But on the other hand they can't outrun a vehicle with 200+ km/h, and even foot soldiers play still a role in the big picture.
Too many people think that weapon type X is better than Y although neither of them are, as there is not "Wunderwaffe" only different tools of war for different situations, and that's why we have this discussions here in the first place. The BattleMech makes perfect sense in the context of intergalactic warfare on many different terrains and by extension psychological warfare in a time were just bombing your enemy into the stone age was outlawed.
To finalize I add another good quote from the Techmanual
> There are two types of MechWarriors - those who believe the myths and those who survive.
(Fun fact though: IIRC the first editions of the rules had to nerf vehicles to make mechs viable).
You make excellent points, and I really appreciate your taking the extra time to explain!
I very much agree with you, Combined Arms is the way - as evidenced in-universe by the Regimental Combat Teams and on the tabletop by how cheap a *Demolisher* is when you need something that will absolutely wreck an *Atlas* in urban warfare.
On the rest, we seem to be putting forward aligned but not allied points - we agree that 'Mechs don't *move* like tanks (despite their videogame depiction) but are a complementary side-grade that serves an equally important battlefield role?
>On the rest, we seem to be putting forward aligned but not allied points - we agree that 'Mechs don't
>
>move
>
> like tanks (despite their videogame depiction) but are a complementary side-grade that serves an equally important battlefield role?
Yes, definitely.
That quote reads as sarcasm to me. "Don't be fooled by these traits that are obviously different and superior to other armored combat vehicles, it's \*just\* an armored combat vehicle \*wink wink\*"
It wasn't meant as sarcasm though. It is a lore segment in the TechManual were an academic of the field (Prof. Dietrich Mathers) explains the technical buildup and misconceptions people have about BattleMechs. They also go in the segment on a long elaborate rant that Fusion engines don't "explode".
In general the TechManual is a great ressource if you want to engage in science side of the science fiction of the BT lore.
Two things to correct. Everything the mechs have that let one person do the work of 3-7 is 100% applicable to tanks. There is literally no reason for battletech tanks to require more than a single pilot.
Second, while I find the idea of the neuro helmet to be gamechanging to be viable, that's not really perfect as we can already make gyros to keep something like a mech upright. It's been done in the real world as pure mechanics, not even requiring computers nor electronics much less brain scanning.
Edit: Oh, third thing, a knight in armor is more agile than anime mecha. People's idea of how restrictive full plate armor is, is way off. A knight in full plate can absolutely run through obstacle courses, do dodge rolls, etc. Interestingly enough, a knight in full plate has one major weakness, which is the same as mechs, heat.
>There is literally no reason for battletech tanks to require more than a single pilot.
Agreed, *to an extent*. There was an excellent and underrated sci-fi videogame released 1999 called "Recoil" that illustrated this perfectly. However;
>Everything the mechs have that let one person do the work of 3-7 is 100% applicable to tanks.
There are some pretty significant things 'Mechs allow a person to do that tanks *can't*, especially the humanoid 'Mechs. Limbs and hands allow for dynamic movements; a commando roll under a flight of incoming missiles, sidestepping right before you anticipate the locked on enemy firing weapons, etc.
>Second, while I find the idea of the neuro helmet to be gamechanging to be viable, that's not really perfect as we can already make gyros to keep something like a mech upright. It's been done in the real world as pure mechanics, not even requiring computers nor electronics much less brain scanning.
I believe that the neurohelmet/gyro combination is specifically supposed to allow the pilot to fluidly and deliberately override the gyro. Several novels describe things like Mechwarriors leaning their 'Mechs or even deliberately falling as a tactic. A purely computer controlled gyro that didn't have the option of direct input or override would make this tricky. I realise that current control systems could allow for exactly this kind of override, but it's not as easy or precise as being able to *think it* would be. For example, the "Lane Assist" in most modern vehicles which will gently fight the driver over not hugging too tight on the curb. Imagine instead of having to use muscle to keep the steering wheel in position against the Assist, being able to tell it "just for a moment, stop nagging" at the speed of thought.
The 'Mech gyros also **do** allow for purely computer controlled operation in "maintenance mode" so that Techs can walk the 'Mechs around repair facilities without having to bother a MechWarrior.
>Oh, third thing, a knight in armor is more agile than anime mecha. People's idea of how restrictive full plate armor is, is way off. A knight in full plate can absolutely run through obstacle courses, do dodge rolls, etc. Interestingly enough, a knight in full plate has one major weakness, which is the same as mechs, heat.
We have seen some different Mecha anime then. I have argued before in different subs that platemail is wildly misunderstood by most people - having actually worn recreations before I know how freely you can move while wearing it! My point was **not** to suggest that knights were sluggish, because they were not, but I don't think they could fly or use their jump-jets to skim across the ground at super sonic speed like some Mecha do... 😉😅
It’s mentioned in the tech manual that a mechwarrior can, with a little care, do a handstand fairly easily, at least in mechs whose build allows for it.
The original rules of Alpha Strike allowed for that idea. The modifier to hit a mech wasn't based on the distance moved but on its mobility, so even if it didn't move much it could still "dodge" hits. There was an outcry from many players used to how standard Battletech does it so they modified it.
I dunno about the games, but in the last book of the Legend of the Jade Phoenix trilogy Aiden's punishes a poor training performance for the Falcon Guards by having them out joining the Trinary's Elementals in their morning calisthenics in their mechs. The passage where it talks about someone thinking there was a minor Earthquake only to look out the window and see a full Trinary of mechs doing jumping jacks is quite entertaining.
"Honestly, while I love the video games dearly, I think they're more than a little responsible for the perception and continuation in the fiction that 'Mechs move like walking tanks. The engine and hardware limitations of the older games meant they couldn't show 'Mechs doing anything more than cruising around like tanks with legs, and that seems to have stuck."
That's honestly what I like about the setting and why I never liked Gundam.
To be fair all that tech also makes Mechs way more expensive, not to mention much harder to manufacture and maintain. Mechwarriors arent easy to train either, a lot of people arent suited for it, while virtually everyone can be trained as a tank crewman because there are no special requirements.
Logistics wise, tanks win hands down except in some niche scenarios.
The bigger size of mechs should also make them much easier to hit...when you have a mech the size of a building, the odds of hitting it shouldnt be exactly the same as a car. But thats an example of how game rules favor mechs on purpose.
But I have to wonder what the Mackie test would have been like if the tanks had been given the same level of tech and been able to crit something important. It would have been awfully embarrassing if a tank had managed to crit the Gyro and caused it to fall flat on its face, or hit a leg actuator that did the same thing.
Because it was all the new toys and it capped off the show with a melee stomp. They wanted something to change the way wars were fought and here it was, running, gunning and curb stomping the competition.
So its a fun topic, but basically while mechs, even today, have advantages in certian types of terrain, the Terran Military wanted to show off. The engagement was a commercial, scripted to sell the mech. The commercial was a success by all accounts, every house scrambled to have the new tech based on those results.
The actual new tech? Bar10 armor, advances in structure, advances in portable fusion engines, mature Laser and eventually Particle weaponry. Coupled with dropships that allowed you to wage interstellar war, but put a strict limit on how much you could carry, making the need for an antieverything ground unit in an easy to transport package.
Transporting and feeding a small force like an infantry battalion uses too much space. A mech just happened to be an all terrain ground unit, with automated controls linked to a single pilot and 7ish strong technical crew. They could have made a 100 ton 1 person tank with better specs in some areas, but while that would cover 90% of what you want for open ground, as soon as the exotic environments come out the tank stops working. Tank on an airless moon to attack a moon base? Even if it's sealed, the dust in a terran desert were a problem, it's 10x worse for a tank with lunar regolith and craters.
So in the end, while they could have made a much much better tank with few of the modern tanks drawbacks, when transport is the bottleneck the battlemech hit the 'all terrain anti-everything' first, and that meant tank technology stagnated and tanks were chosen to take on a cheap, low tech role as a support tool.
In other settings , instead of the battlemech its the hovertank using anti-grav, which is more fantasy then myomer on the scifi to science fantasy scale. Or, instead of a grav tank they use supermassive rolling ground battleships, using multiple feet of armor to bounce attacks amd justify themselves. Starship troopers/Avatar/Matrix used minimechs/protomechs, keeping the all terrain bit from battlemechs but with even smaller reactors to make smaller, more managable mechs.
>the way wars were foug
Shout-out to Hammer's Slammers and the Dinochrome Brigade. I wonder how well early Bolo's would work in Battletech? Later Mk. units would be too op I think.
The test Mackie gets shat on, but what it really represented was the synthesis of multiple advancements into something truly superior. The idea of the "walking (tall, easily visible) tank" makes knowledgeable military chaps shake their heads because they fail to realize two things:
1) Battletech armor, including BAR9 and 10 as of the Mackie test, are highly resistant to long-rod penetration.
2) That same armor is an EW emissions surface, that has e.g. anti-desigator adaptive capabilities even without special EW packages, is networked to an EW battle computer and the whole package powered by enough output to run a small city.
That three-story robot BLANKETS the battlespace in EW when at full power, and can be picked out easily from space. It's fighting your tank's budget sensor package to the death even before you can pull the trigger.
This is one of the reasons battletech ranges are short.
And yes, this is inductive reasoning. We are people looking through a peephole into a future dimension where fusion robots are a thing and we only partly understand why.
Yeah, while the 80s when battletech got started didnt factor in GPS to increase range, it also didnt factor in jamming; blanket EW just as a byproduct from powering a Fusion engine could be quite intense. The reactor might be clean-ish, but all those high energy transfers throughout the mech via myomere cables are pretty intense.
Honestly, the emissions from lasers and particle cannons constantly striking hard surfaces would probably turn cameras grainy due to all the radiation, and pilots would have very high occupational radiation doses. I dont think there is a 'clean' way to have a Particle Cannon strike a hardened metal target without it causing a ton of radiation and a massive jamming signal explosion. Same with lasers creating plasma explosions.
Medical science has improved in battltech, so since radiation isnt often cited as a problem, including the massive dose you get just BEING in space, and who KNOWS what you get dosed with for a hyperspace jump, its likely riding around while sitting on a fusion engine firing particle weapons would be fatal to us today, but just a trip to sickbay for the mechwarriors in 3050.
Yes, and those really heavy computers are likely either from extensive hardening and/or analogue adaptations of advanced learning products (you need much less power to run an AI model than to train it). Seven tons of EW equipment on a Raven, to match an advanced SLDF suite? Ok.
The mind-boggling power of EW that Battletech lightly glosses over in realizing pen and paper assumptions is also why drones are very heavy vehicles--unshielded equipment would be hacked or disabled even by induction currents of directed beams. No one runs a pocket radio near military hardware in the setting
Another point, tangential to all this, but relevant to battletech capability: the Mackie test showed the neural helmet link went both ways--the pilot could take in warnings from the mech and respond to reduce damage or engage targets much, much faster than even the designers anticipated.
In battletech, this is a reason only a fully shutdown mech gets the massive -4 bonus to hit. When running, the computers and helmet make mech operation a lot more natural than a "walking tank". It will roll with shots and use motions to reduce the severity of injury.
Addendum: blue shield tech was introduced by the fedcom in 3051, so it had to be based on well-known principles. Likely a form of such particle shielding is used to keep radiation out of cockpits and spacecraft.
It's in a scaled-up version versus PPC blasts that makes it both new and prone to breakdowns.
(Obviously this is theory.)
Mechs also have myomer, which is like the muscle of the mech. Myomer is contained completely within the armor shell of the mech, vehicles like tanks or cars need their tracks or wheels at least a little bit outside the armor to contact the ground. That's why in the game it's so easy to immobilize a combat vehicle compared to a mech. You can't spin wheels or treads using muscle-like movement so vehicles can't have myomer.
I'll grant, it would be pretty funny.
>Also, what if the cat had just chewed through the USB-M(ech) cable?
<*sigh*> If it's my current cat, he'll get zapped, hiss at the cable, start chewing again, get zapped, hiss at the cable, maybe swat the cable, repeat ad nauseum until the cable has been severed.
With wheels that can be blown off, immobilizing it. The point is you can blow a mech's foot clean off and it can keep advancing, limping along on the stump.
Don't think of the 'Mech as the "New Hotness."
Think of the 'Mech instead as what it is: the new battle cruiser.
BattleMechs were not developed to provide a good weapon platform. They were in fact, a fairly bad one. But they're robots, so they're awesome. Look up the trope "Awesome, but Impractical" on tvtropes.org
But the reason they were **REALLY** developed was to allow the Terran Hegemony a new type of weapon that was not subject to the bureaucratically, legally, and definitionally bloated Ares Conventions of 2412, which at 320 pages went to great length to define all types of mechanical weapon and vehicular weapon carrier.
Except the 'Mech, because why would you include a piloted industrial robot in the volumes as a *weapon* subject to regulation?
Thus, IndustrialMechs were **NOT** included, a fact the TerraHeg was blatantly aware of when it developed the Mackie as the first BattleMech, and sidestepped entirely the Ares Convention restrictions on weapon development and deployment.
The armor and weaponry tested on the Mackie *did* get used in tank design, including later versions of the Merkava the Mackie squished in the trial. It was a general test bed for a whole bunch of different pieces of tech, the actual game change was the humanoid design's agility and the neurohelmet/DIC allowing a single soldier to control such a large mechanism.
Also it's a robot setting, not a tank setting.
Because even with the new armor, the tanks would still be susceptible to mobility kills that *allowed* for that melee stomp. Meanwhile, the Mackie is immune to those past armor mobility kills. So they had an advantage.
A 70ton tank is going to have thicker armor than a 70ton mech any day of the week, making them less susceptible to mobility kills than a mech(take out the knee cap).
Now, is this how it's played out in game lore and mechanics?
No, and that's okay, because this is a game about big stompy robots.
Exposed tracks. There are other reasons why 'Mechs realistically wouldn't do so well, but assuming handwavium armor on both the kneecap is gonna be a lot more durable than a side skirt and track.
What, as opposed to exposed knees with far thinner armor? That are high up and visible to everyone with a man portable AT missile?
But the answer is you use combined arms to keep infantry away from using tread-fethers on tracked vehicles. In contrast, in lore mechs are notorious for being basically independent operators that run into real problems with even a squad size infantry element knows anti-mech tactics(GDL, Clan toads).
But that's okay, because this is about robots where everything is ablative armor instead of "you either pierce the armor or you don't" in the RL and the cube square law doesn't exist or otherwise impact movement.
The knees actuators aren't exposed. The visibility is one of the better reasons why 'Mechs aren't used. The ablative armor is part of the handwavium that makes the setting work, as well as myomer and fusion engines. Without those, yeah, Mechs don't work. Funnily enough, the square cube law isn't as relevant as you'd think with how much 'Mechs weigh in-setting. I remember somebody doing the math for their density and determining that they'd float in water.
I mean they are definitely exposed in the sense you can see them real easy, compared to, say, a tank which might have all sorts of intervening objects at hull level.
Well, I can't really argue the weight thing, other than pointing out that others have speculated about a possible "Star League Ton" measurement system, because there is no real way a Atlas weighs less than a Maus, for instance.
>What, as opposed to exposed knees with far thinner armor? That are high up and visible to everyone with a man portable AT missile?
If you shoot someone in the knee and they cannot feel pain, how much have you likely reduced their effectiveness? You blow a tank's track off it's a turret, you shoot a soldier in a leg they can continue to limp towards an objective. That's the big advantage a mech has.
Battlemechs had some distinct advantages over tanks.
In lore, they're far more maneuverable and nimble, tough this isn't really expressed in the tabletop.
Battlemechs are able to shoot over a single height-level of cover.
Battlemechs are way more durable. Unlike tanks, they can survive getting a section destroyed.
Battlemechs can punch or kick and pick things up with their hands.
Because the game centered around giant stompy death-robots would be really weird if it didn't focus on the giant stompy death-robots. Your suspension of disbelief is required for any kind of mecha entertainment.
A battlemech can go where a tank cant and can cover more ground than most tanks. It needs only one well trained pilot rather than a tank crew. The armor and weapons require a big fusion reactor to move around, can't do that in most tanks. Mechs are more durable than tanks, which are vulnerable to motive hits which render them useless very quickly. The mech was the answer to the new style of warfare created by the Ares Conventions.
In addition to neurohelmet which allowed one person to do the work of a whole vehicle crew, mechs can simply walk where vehicles can't even think about going
You can't just drive a tank across the mountain range but mech can walk across it no problem
This completely changes the whole concept of military strategy
I think we’re all forgetting the psychological impact of a battlemech being the *ultimate* equalizer. A battlemech can turn a farmboy into a one man goddamn army with a bit of training and experience. Tanks are crew serviced, so is artillery, infantry of any sort rarely work alone, even hovercraft and VTOL are crew serviced. Only aerospace fighters and battlemechs are single-operator weapons systems. (Yes there ARE twin cockpit mechs but that’s mainly so Capellans don’t lose battlemechs to pilots who suddenly realize THEY are the state’s answer to “you and what army” and decide to go somewhere less Liao; because who wants to be a Capellan.).
Name me another weapon that can turn any *single* person into a small force of nature after training. (Blah blah blah you could operate an artillery piece on your own. Arty’s great until someone with a baseball bat enters minimum range)
THAT is why battlemechs caught on and that’s why we love them. They’re the ultimate Big Stick. And brother, there’s no walking soft in 20+ tons of steel.
Well the out of universe answer is "Giant robots. Now cue the Megas XLR theme". The setting's bread and butter is the Mechs, once that's established a lot of the reasons why have to fit that.
Now in universe reasons are various:
1. House Cameron, the Terran Hegemony, needed to keep up to date and excel at various technologies against the other Houses. Its not like they can just expand in a direction with everyone at their borders. So they needed a "what the hell" moment and making a new weapons platform like a Mech would do it.
2. If you put the new weapons and armor on a tank, which eventually they did, you're still stuck with just that: a tank. Tanks require crews of more than 1 person. Tanks don't handle various terrains well. Tanks can't be used for stuff like construction easily. Tanks don't have a versatility like a Mech. With a Mech, you could send one warrior out with some supplies, energy based weapons and have them go dark, scouting and harassing far better than a small tank. Then you can have said Mech (if it has hands) to run, blow up stuff, snatch items, or overall be a menace. Afterwards it can be used for helping with things like construction or search and rescue better than a tank.
3. Going back to point 1, if you have successfully pulled off this "what the hell" moment on the enemy, you've also given yourself a great propoganda tool for your own people. Now you can have posters of the lone Mechwarrior, guarding the frontier, doing what they can to protect Terra. This sells well compared to a tanker crew I bet, really pulls on the heart strings of the people. Plus the other Houses will beg borrow or steal to get this stuff, giving you a revenue stream in time.
Well in the game and in universe they still require multiple people for the bigger ones.
In game its something like 1 per 15 tons.
You're still dealing with the fact a Mech is taller, so it can see over hills better, able to be used outside of combat presuming it has hands, and handles various terrains better.
The tanks had auto cannons 5, their armor was only bar 7 so it was behind even the Mackie's primitive armor , but they were not worthless by any measure
The mackies fusion powered large laser was the game changer. Cause it could slice through their armor and inflict crits.
Their srm 4s and machine guns could still damage the Mackie.
But since they got engaged in an open field by a more maneuverable enemy they got wasted.
Obviously remote controlled machines were less prompt to react.
But it was an exhibition, 1 machine with 1 pilot
Vs 4 tanks and 12 crew.
Logistics wise it's a game changer.
Another element to consider is the terror effect of seeing a Mackie on the battlefield.
It's a huge highly visible robot armed to the teeth with high tech weapons, and it takes more than one direct hit to even slow it down. It takes a lot of cool nerves to remember you outnumber it, and even after you defeat one you have to ask yourself how many more of those monsters you will face before the war ends?
When first deployed the Mackie tanked enemy morale, and won several battles by its mere presence. When enemy commanders and troops decided they really didn't want to find out if it lives up to its reputation.
One of the guys in my gaming group says it's stupid that mechs can just flip over tanks and rip turrets off in games. He's right, they should be able to do thaf.
Because of the Hegemony's military-industrial complex.
'Mechs were more expensive than tanks, so the designers of 'Mechs could be paid more per unit than if they just put the same tech on tanks.
Plus, they had a monopoly on the design, and they could prevent other designers/factions (specifically the Great Houses) from emulating them, and thus the designers and the Hegemony could maintain their monopoly on this new technology.
Probably more a proof of concept thing. Yeah they were remote controlled tanks but they’re still packing 120mm cannons. Until that point the only thing to counter armor is better armor. Adding that same amount of armor to a tank would require a larger engine. That’s going to leave less space for weapons systems so you just end up chasing that balance. Also, lore reasons.
Logically the Mackie wouldn’t have been evolutionary for battlefield conditions unless it packed the hand actuators that later battlemechs have to allow them to assist in large scale logistical movements.
Battlemechs require stabilizers and because of the extreme ground pressure given their high center of gravity, weight, and of course weight distribution they’re honestly wasteful as hell outside of the benefit of Myomer fibers not applicable to vehicles. You could fit more armor on a tank, with a weaker engine, alongside greater weapon systems, and have a vehicle capable of fighting across a much greater variety of difficult terrain given lower ground pressure. That is of course considering more realistic factors.
One of the other comments mentioned myomer, and almost hit the nail on the head. Myomer *combined with* the neurohelmet and gyro were the groundbreaking tech. It made one person able to do the work of 3+, and allowed a humanoid tank to be stronger, faster and more agile than anything that had come before. 'Mechs are *strong*, stronger than anything running on hydraulics can be, and the neurohelmet gives an experienced pilot a level of control and dexterity impossible with traditional control systems. I really wish there was more consistency in the fluff for how agile a 'Mech is. They shouldn't be anime Mecha agile, but knight in armor agile is where a 50 tonner *should* sit. A *Griffon* being able to advance fluidly, use cover and either crouch or crawl would remove basically every advantage a tank has over a 'Mech. It would also put a final end to all the "it's just a worse tank!" comments that do the rounds here regularly. It's not a tank, it's a SOLDIER who is just very tall and carries a shitload of armor and weapons. IIRC, there is a world in the Lyran Commonwealth that hosted 'Mech based Games up to an including calisthenics and agility trials. 'Mechs doing obstacle courses, jumping jacks and such. Hopefully someone can help me out with the name, I think I remember reading the Sarna article about it a couple of years ago? EDIT: thanks to u/spolieris for suggesting Noisiel as the planet. Definitely the world I was thinking of! Honestly, while I love the video games dearly, I think they're more than a little responsible for the perception and continuation in the fiction that 'Mechs move like walking tanks. The engine and hardware limitations of the older games meant they couldn't show 'Mechs doing anything more than cruising around like tanks with legs, and that seems to have stuck. EDIT: formatting.
The planet is Noisiel. https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Noisiel The Noisiel Summer Mech Games. The Battletech books Chaos Born and Chaos Forged about the Merc unit the Chaos Irregulars had them go to Noisiel and join the Games playing Mech Chess to attract clients. But in the book they watch Mech Soccer, obstacle course races, and other sports as well as Light Mechs with modified actuators and suped up gyros, that could do gymnastics and martial arts.
Thanks Mundane-Librarian! Spolieris got there first but your info was more detailed! 🎉
Not gonna lie, you describing mech calisthenics reminds me so much of episode 1 of gunbuster. The damned robots doing jumping Jack's and jump rope at the high school track and field.
I haven't seen it but I can imagine it. And it's making my BattleTech nerd brain fizz in nice ways. If 'Mechs *can't* achieve this level of agility, honestly the "just a walking tank" naysayers would be right. That isn't allowed to be true, otherwise what's the point of BattleTech..? 😅
The world you are thinking of is probably Noisel (https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Noisiel) which featured in a battlecorps short story (part of the Chaos Irregulars series) and has since been fleshed out in other publications (including a Touring the Stars pdf)
YES! You legend! If I could give awards I would!
Np :)
That's just Gunbuster! they can't keep stealing anime like this (slams fist into ground) FASA!!!
Go home, Harmony Gold, you lost already... 😉
I think the 'worse tank' POV comes from a lot of people who are imagining mechs moving the way they do in the MechWarrior games, since that is many peoples first exposure to mechs.
Agreed! See the final paragraph of my original comment. As I said, engine and hardware limitations made it impossible for videogame 'Mechs to be presented "properly" so they went with the best they could do. Again, I absolutely love the games. Microsoft, if you're listening, release a remaster collection of ***all*** the old MechWarrior and MechCommander games and expansions to run on modern hardware and OS and you can charge me $1000 and I'll pay it no question.
I'd love either a remaster or a new take on a Mechcommander game. I enjoy MechWarrior, but the MC series was my favorite.
While I have some fondness for the Mechwarrior games, this is the one aspect about them that annoys me (i.e. the way the mechs move in those games)
I believe you might be talking about Outreach (could be wrong) and was formally a Capellan world before being taken by the Federated Commonwealth, then granted to the Wolf Dragoons.
It might be - the SLDF Martial Olympiad might have included these competitions... Maybe it was in one of Sven van der Plank's videos then, because the Sarna pages on Outreach and the Olympiad don't mention such events directly. I had a feeling it might have featured in a novel somewhere too, maybe a Merc commander looking for recruits or a recruit Merc looking to get hired, but that turned up no easy leads.
There are at least a few worlds that have or had Mech contests of various sorts. I remember at least one mentioned somewhere in the old Periphery sourcebook, and I know I've stumbled across more randomly following links on Sarna.
Well, it's right there in the fluff: > A BattleMech is an armoured combat vehicle. That's right. Don't be fooled by the sculpted armor and lifelike motions of the limbs. A BattleMech is just a tank on legs. \- Techmanual p.31. (2022 edition) The TechManual is also quite outspoken about the fact that conventional tanks are by no means inferior(p. 90f). As so often in military tactics it's less about "strenght" but more about roles, as mechs can manage very difficult terrain even difficult for vehicles. Tex made in his video about the Mackie a very good point that psychology was a key factor. Thanks to it's very light build a mech is quite large compared to it's weight and these things strike fear into the OpFor lowering the moral.
Your quote undermines the very point you are trying to use it to make: > A BattleMech is an armoured combat vehicle. That's right. ***Don't be fooled by the sculpted armor and lifelike motions of the limbs.*** A BattleMech is just a tank on legs. Emphasis mine. If the limbs move in a lifelike way, then the 'Mech is *much more agile than a tank*. I would also want more of the context around the quote - it reads like it's an *in universe* quote from someone, and as such could be biased or incomplete. I didn't say that conventional vehicles were inferior. I was criticising the view of a (to me) surprising number of people on this sub, that *'Mechs* should be inferior due to their height, ground pressure, etc. As I said in my original post, the inconsistency in the fluff regarding 'Mechs' movements is a serious problem for this discussion. Canon examples, e.g. the Noisiel Games, 'Mechwarriors being able to use 'Mech hands to pick up people without hurting them, etc., completely defy the legged tank depiction in the video games. Even the fact that the tabletop rules allow for a 'Mechwarrior to sift through building debris to find a girder to use as a club suggests a significant level of dexterity and fine control. If 'Mechs are as agile and dextrous as they are, in my opinion, *properly* described, they are far more than "tanks on legs".
>Emphasis mine. If the limbs move in a lifelike way, then the 'Mech is > >much more agile than a tank > >. I would also want more of the context around the quote - it reads like it's an > >in universe > > quote from someone, and as such could be biased or incomplete. The quote is from an in universe lecture of the character Prof. Dietrich Mathers on in introduction into BattleMechs and also trying to debunk myths about it. To give some more context on the quote: > Your recent problems originate not only from people shouting at you for technical errors, but also for violating cultural taboos about the BattleMech. For example, in some 'net halls, I would be wise to wear asbestos undies if I dared to call those shining magnificent titans of war something so crass as "giant armored robots toting huge guns". So to strip away the cultural baggage that BattleMechs have acquired over the past-half millennium let me give you this enhanced definition of the BattleMech: A BattleMech is an armored combat vehicle. That's right. Don't be fooled by the sculpted armor and lifelike motions of the limbs. A BattleMech is just a tank on legs. The arms are complicated turrets but turrets nonetheless. The legs are a complicated all-terrain propulsion system. And a BattleMech's armor guns and armor do not significantly differ from those found on any other combat vehicles use today. > I didn't say that conventional vehicles were inferior. I was criticising the view of a (to me) surprising number of people on this sub, that 'Mechs should be inferior due to their height, ground pressure, etc. I actually agree with you on that, but the point I make here is, that the fluff is making the point as well that mechs are just a special kind of tank, but this is not meant in a degrading sense either. The real problem is the "inferior" part as this is the very thing of the Total Warfare and TechManual books try to explain: Namely combined arms warfare. Each piece of the puzzle plays a key role. Mechs are more versatile on difficult terrain and as you pointed out can do things normal tanks couldn't like using a tree as weapon. But on the other hand they can't outrun a vehicle with 200+ km/h, and even foot soldiers play still a role in the big picture. Too many people think that weapon type X is better than Y although neither of them are, as there is not "Wunderwaffe" only different tools of war for different situations, and that's why we have this discussions here in the first place. The BattleMech makes perfect sense in the context of intergalactic warfare on many different terrains and by extension psychological warfare in a time were just bombing your enemy into the stone age was outlawed. To finalize I add another good quote from the Techmanual > There are two types of MechWarriors - those who believe the myths and those who survive. (Fun fact though: IIRC the first editions of the rules had to nerf vehicles to make mechs viable).
You make excellent points, and I really appreciate your taking the extra time to explain! I very much agree with you, Combined Arms is the way - as evidenced in-universe by the Regimental Combat Teams and on the tabletop by how cheap a *Demolisher* is when you need something that will absolutely wreck an *Atlas* in urban warfare. On the rest, we seem to be putting forward aligned but not allied points - we agree that 'Mechs don't *move* like tanks (despite their videogame depiction) but are a complementary side-grade that serves an equally important battlefield role?
>On the rest, we seem to be putting forward aligned but not allied points - we agree that 'Mechs don't > >move > > like tanks (despite their videogame depiction) but are a complementary side-grade that serves an equally important battlefield role? Yes, definitely.
That quote reads as sarcasm to me. "Don't be fooled by these traits that are obviously different and superior to other armored combat vehicles, it's \*just\* an armored combat vehicle \*wink wink\*"
It wasn't meant as sarcasm though. It is a lore segment in the TechManual were an academic of the field (Prof. Dietrich Mathers) explains the technical buildup and misconceptions people have about BattleMechs. They also go in the segment on a long elaborate rant that Fusion engines don't "explode". In general the TechManual is a great ressource if you want to engage in science side of the science fiction of the BT lore.
Two things to correct. Everything the mechs have that let one person do the work of 3-7 is 100% applicable to tanks. There is literally no reason for battletech tanks to require more than a single pilot. Second, while I find the idea of the neuro helmet to be gamechanging to be viable, that's not really perfect as we can already make gyros to keep something like a mech upright. It's been done in the real world as pure mechanics, not even requiring computers nor electronics much less brain scanning. Edit: Oh, third thing, a knight in armor is more agile than anime mecha. People's idea of how restrictive full plate armor is, is way off. A knight in full plate can absolutely run through obstacle courses, do dodge rolls, etc. Interestingly enough, a knight in full plate has one major weakness, which is the same as mechs, heat.
>There is literally no reason for battletech tanks to require more than a single pilot. Agreed, *to an extent*. There was an excellent and underrated sci-fi videogame released 1999 called "Recoil" that illustrated this perfectly. However; >Everything the mechs have that let one person do the work of 3-7 is 100% applicable to tanks. There are some pretty significant things 'Mechs allow a person to do that tanks *can't*, especially the humanoid 'Mechs. Limbs and hands allow for dynamic movements; a commando roll under a flight of incoming missiles, sidestepping right before you anticipate the locked on enemy firing weapons, etc. >Second, while I find the idea of the neuro helmet to be gamechanging to be viable, that's not really perfect as we can already make gyros to keep something like a mech upright. It's been done in the real world as pure mechanics, not even requiring computers nor electronics much less brain scanning. I believe that the neurohelmet/gyro combination is specifically supposed to allow the pilot to fluidly and deliberately override the gyro. Several novels describe things like Mechwarriors leaning their 'Mechs or even deliberately falling as a tactic. A purely computer controlled gyro that didn't have the option of direct input or override would make this tricky. I realise that current control systems could allow for exactly this kind of override, but it's not as easy or precise as being able to *think it* would be. For example, the "Lane Assist" in most modern vehicles which will gently fight the driver over not hugging too tight on the curb. Imagine instead of having to use muscle to keep the steering wheel in position against the Assist, being able to tell it "just for a moment, stop nagging" at the speed of thought. The 'Mech gyros also **do** allow for purely computer controlled operation in "maintenance mode" so that Techs can walk the 'Mechs around repair facilities without having to bother a MechWarrior. >Oh, third thing, a knight in armor is more agile than anime mecha. People's idea of how restrictive full plate armor is, is way off. A knight in full plate can absolutely run through obstacle courses, do dodge rolls, etc. Interestingly enough, a knight in full plate has one major weakness, which is the same as mechs, heat. We have seen some different Mecha anime then. I have argued before in different subs that platemail is wildly misunderstood by most people - having actually worn recreations before I know how freely you can move while wearing it! My point was **not** to suggest that knights were sluggish, because they were not, but I don't think they could fly or use their jump-jets to skim across the ground at super sonic speed like some Mecha do... 😉😅
It’s mentioned in the tech manual that a mechwarrior can, with a little care, do a handstand fairly easily, at least in mechs whose build allows for it.
The original rules of Alpha Strike allowed for that idea. The modifier to hit a mech wasn't based on the distance moved but on its mobility, so even if it didn't move much it could still "dodge" hits. There was an outcry from many players used to how standard Battletech does it so they modified it.
I dunno about the games, but in the last book of the Legend of the Jade Phoenix trilogy Aiden's punishes a poor training performance for the Falcon Guards by having them out joining the Trinary's Elementals in their morning calisthenics in their mechs. The passage where it talks about someone thinking there was a minor Earthquake only to look out the window and see a full Trinary of mechs doing jumping jacks is quite entertaining.
My go to for Battlemech visualization is Mobile Suit Gundam the 08th MS Team. Even the boosters functioning like jump jets.
"Honestly, while I love the video games dearly, I think they're more than a little responsible for the perception and continuation in the fiction that 'Mechs move like walking tanks. The engine and hardware limitations of the older games meant they couldn't show 'Mechs doing anything more than cruising around like tanks with legs, and that seems to have stuck." That's honestly what I like about the setting and why I never liked Gundam.
To be fair all that tech also makes Mechs way more expensive, not to mention much harder to manufacture and maintain. Mechwarriors arent easy to train either, a lot of people arent suited for it, while virtually everyone can be trained as a tank crewman because there are no special requirements. Logistics wise, tanks win hands down except in some niche scenarios. The bigger size of mechs should also make them much easier to hit...when you have a mech the size of a building, the odds of hitting it shouldnt be exactly the same as a car. But thats an example of how game rules favor mechs on purpose. But I have to wonder what the Mackie test would have been like if the tanks had been given the same level of tech and been able to crit something important. It would have been awfully embarrassing if a tank had managed to crit the Gyro and caused it to fall flat on its face, or hit a leg actuator that did the same thing.
Because it was all the new toys and it capped off the show with a melee stomp. They wanted something to change the way wars were fought and here it was, running, gunning and curb stomping the competition.
So its a fun topic, but basically while mechs, even today, have advantages in certian types of terrain, the Terran Military wanted to show off. The engagement was a commercial, scripted to sell the mech. The commercial was a success by all accounts, every house scrambled to have the new tech based on those results. The actual new tech? Bar10 armor, advances in structure, advances in portable fusion engines, mature Laser and eventually Particle weaponry. Coupled with dropships that allowed you to wage interstellar war, but put a strict limit on how much you could carry, making the need for an antieverything ground unit in an easy to transport package. Transporting and feeding a small force like an infantry battalion uses too much space. A mech just happened to be an all terrain ground unit, with automated controls linked to a single pilot and 7ish strong technical crew. They could have made a 100 ton 1 person tank with better specs in some areas, but while that would cover 90% of what you want for open ground, as soon as the exotic environments come out the tank stops working. Tank on an airless moon to attack a moon base? Even if it's sealed, the dust in a terran desert were a problem, it's 10x worse for a tank with lunar regolith and craters. So in the end, while they could have made a much much better tank with few of the modern tanks drawbacks, when transport is the bottleneck the battlemech hit the 'all terrain anti-everything' first, and that meant tank technology stagnated and tanks were chosen to take on a cheap, low tech role as a support tool. In other settings , instead of the battlemech its the hovertank using anti-grav, which is more fantasy then myomer on the scifi to science fantasy scale. Or, instead of a grav tank they use supermassive rolling ground battleships, using multiple feet of armor to bounce attacks amd justify themselves. Starship troopers/Avatar/Matrix used minimechs/protomechs, keeping the all terrain bit from battlemechs but with even smaller reactors to make smaller, more managable mechs.
>the way wars were foug Shout-out to Hammer's Slammers and the Dinochrome Brigade. I wonder how well early Bolo's would work in Battletech? Later Mk. units would be too op I think.
The test Mackie gets shat on, but what it really represented was the synthesis of multiple advancements into something truly superior. The idea of the "walking (tall, easily visible) tank" makes knowledgeable military chaps shake their heads because they fail to realize two things: 1) Battletech armor, including BAR9 and 10 as of the Mackie test, are highly resistant to long-rod penetration. 2) That same armor is an EW emissions surface, that has e.g. anti-desigator adaptive capabilities even without special EW packages, is networked to an EW battle computer and the whole package powered by enough output to run a small city. That three-story robot BLANKETS the battlespace in EW when at full power, and can be picked out easily from space. It's fighting your tank's budget sensor package to the death even before you can pull the trigger. This is one of the reasons battletech ranges are short. And yes, this is inductive reasoning. We are people looking through a peephole into a future dimension where fusion robots are a thing and we only partly understand why.
Yeah, while the 80s when battletech got started didnt factor in GPS to increase range, it also didnt factor in jamming; blanket EW just as a byproduct from powering a Fusion engine could be quite intense. The reactor might be clean-ish, but all those high energy transfers throughout the mech via myomere cables are pretty intense. Honestly, the emissions from lasers and particle cannons constantly striking hard surfaces would probably turn cameras grainy due to all the radiation, and pilots would have very high occupational radiation doses. I dont think there is a 'clean' way to have a Particle Cannon strike a hardened metal target without it causing a ton of radiation and a massive jamming signal explosion. Same with lasers creating plasma explosions. Medical science has improved in battltech, so since radiation isnt often cited as a problem, including the massive dose you get just BEING in space, and who KNOWS what you get dosed with for a hyperspace jump, its likely riding around while sitting on a fusion engine firing particle weapons would be fatal to us today, but just a trip to sickbay for the mechwarriors in 3050.
Yes, and those really heavy computers are likely either from extensive hardening and/or analogue adaptations of advanced learning products (you need much less power to run an AI model than to train it). Seven tons of EW equipment on a Raven, to match an advanced SLDF suite? Ok. The mind-boggling power of EW that Battletech lightly glosses over in realizing pen and paper assumptions is also why drones are very heavy vehicles--unshielded equipment would be hacked or disabled even by induction currents of directed beams. No one runs a pocket radio near military hardware in the setting Another point, tangential to all this, but relevant to battletech capability: the Mackie test showed the neural helmet link went both ways--the pilot could take in warnings from the mech and respond to reduce damage or engage targets much, much faster than even the designers anticipated. In battletech, this is a reason only a fully shutdown mech gets the massive -4 bonus to hit. When running, the computers and helmet make mech operation a lot more natural than a "walking tank". It will roll with shots and use motions to reduce the severity of injury.
Addendum: blue shield tech was introduced by the fedcom in 3051, so it had to be based on well-known principles. Likely a form of such particle shielding is used to keep radiation out of cockpits and spacecraft. It's in a scaled-up version versus PPC blasts that makes it both new and prone to breakdowns. (Obviously this is theory.)
Mechs also have myomer, which is like the muscle of the mech. Myomer is contained completely within the armor shell of the mech, vehicles like tanks or cars need their tracks or wheels at least a little bit outside the armor to contact the ground. That's why in the game it's so easy to immobilize a combat vehicle compared to a mech. You can't spin wheels or treads using muscle-like movement so vehicles can't have myomer.
>You can't spin wheels or treads using muscle-like movement so vehicles can't have myomer. Unless you're a bicycle.
Now I’m picturing a mech pedaling on a massive bicycle frame connected to a dynamo. How much electricity would that generate?
Probably significantly less than you'd get just hooking directly into the 'Mechs fusion engine.
Well obviously, but where’s the fun in that? Also, what if the cat had just chewed through the USB-M(ech) cable?
I'll grant, it would be pretty funny. >Also, what if the cat had just chewed through the USB-M(ech) cable? <*sigh*> If it's my current cat, he'll get zapped, hiss at the cable, start chewing again, get zapped, hiss at the cable, maybe swat the cable, repeat ad nauseum until the cable has been severed.
Oh, he sounds adorable! Your own little smoking jaguar.
I'm (hopefully) pretty sure entropy and the laws of conservation of energy still exist in the battletech universe...
New ilClan tech release. Game changer.
Yeah how does a steam engine works?
With wheels that can be blown off, immobilizing it. The point is you can blow a mech's foot clean off and it can keep advancing, limping along on the stump.
Don't think of the 'Mech as the "New Hotness." Think of the 'Mech instead as what it is: the new battle cruiser. BattleMechs were not developed to provide a good weapon platform. They were in fact, a fairly bad one. But they're robots, so they're awesome. Look up the trope "Awesome, but Impractical" on tvtropes.org But the reason they were **REALLY** developed was to allow the Terran Hegemony a new type of weapon that was not subject to the bureaucratically, legally, and definitionally bloated Ares Conventions of 2412, which at 320 pages went to great length to define all types of mechanical weapon and vehicular weapon carrier. Except the 'Mech, because why would you include a piloted industrial robot in the volumes as a *weapon* subject to regulation? Thus, IndustrialMechs were **NOT** included, a fact the TerraHeg was blatantly aware of when it developed the Mackie as the first BattleMech, and sidestepped entirely the Ares Convention restrictions on weapon development and deployment.
And I **JUST** realized I dropped that simile without explanation!
Ah heck yeah, nothing more heavy metal than GRAMMAR!
I mean, like, 25000 long tons is pretty heavy metal!
The armor and weaponry tested on the Mackie *did* get used in tank design, including later versions of the Merkava the Mackie squished in the trial. It was a general test bed for a whole bunch of different pieces of tech, the actual game change was the humanoid design's agility and the neurohelmet/DIC allowing a single soldier to control such a large mechanism. Also it's a robot setting, not a tank setting.
Because even with the new armor, the tanks would still be susceptible to mobility kills that *allowed* for that melee stomp. Meanwhile, the Mackie is immune to those past armor mobility kills. So they had an advantage.
A 70ton tank is going to have thicker armor than a 70ton mech any day of the week, making them less susceptible to mobility kills than a mech(take out the knee cap). Now, is this how it's played out in game lore and mechanics? No, and that's okay, because this is a game about big stompy robots.
Exposed tracks. There are other reasons why 'Mechs realistically wouldn't do so well, but assuming handwavium armor on both the kneecap is gonna be a lot more durable than a side skirt and track.
What, as opposed to exposed knees with far thinner armor? That are high up and visible to everyone with a man portable AT missile? But the answer is you use combined arms to keep infantry away from using tread-fethers on tracked vehicles. In contrast, in lore mechs are notorious for being basically independent operators that run into real problems with even a squad size infantry element knows anti-mech tactics(GDL, Clan toads). But that's okay, because this is about robots where everything is ablative armor instead of "you either pierce the armor or you don't" in the RL and the cube square law doesn't exist or otherwise impact movement.
The knees actuators aren't exposed. The visibility is one of the better reasons why 'Mechs aren't used. The ablative armor is part of the handwavium that makes the setting work, as well as myomer and fusion engines. Without those, yeah, Mechs don't work. Funnily enough, the square cube law isn't as relevant as you'd think with how much 'Mechs weigh in-setting. I remember somebody doing the math for their density and determining that they'd float in water.
I mean they are definitely exposed in the sense you can see them real easy, compared to, say, a tank which might have all sorts of intervening objects at hull level. Well, I can't really argue the weight thing, other than pointing out that others have speculated about a possible "Star League Ton" measurement system, because there is no real way a Atlas weighs less than a Maus, for instance.
>What, as opposed to exposed knees with far thinner armor? That are high up and visible to everyone with a man portable AT missile? If you shoot someone in the knee and they cannot feel pain, how much have you likely reduced their effectiveness? You blow a tank's track off it's a turret, you shoot a soldier in a leg they can continue to limp towards an objective. That's the big advantage a mech has.
Battlemechs had some distinct advantages over tanks. In lore, they're far more maneuverable and nimble, tough this isn't really expressed in the tabletop. Battlemechs are able to shoot over a single height-level of cover. Battlemechs are way more durable. Unlike tanks, they can survive getting a section destroyed. Battlemechs can punch or kick and pick things up with their hands.
Because the game centered around giant stompy death-robots would be really weird if it didn't focus on the giant stompy death-robots. Your suspension of disbelief is required for any kind of mecha entertainment.
The bar for excitement at the Yakima Firing Center is set very low.
I think Tex had a lot to say about this subject. I recommend his essay on the Mackie.
A battlemech can go where a tank cant and can cover more ground than most tanks. It needs only one well trained pilot rather than a tank crew. The armor and weapons require a big fusion reactor to move around, can't do that in most tanks. Mechs are more durable than tanks, which are vulnerable to motive hits which render them useless very quickly. The mech was the answer to the new style of warfare created by the Ares Conventions.
In addition to neurohelmet which allowed one person to do the work of a whole vehicle crew, mechs can simply walk where vehicles can't even think about going You can't just drive a tank across the mountain range but mech can walk across it no problem This completely changes the whole concept of military strategy
Thoose new armors and guns where developed for the mech.
I think we’re all forgetting the psychological impact of a battlemech being the *ultimate* equalizer. A battlemech can turn a farmboy into a one man goddamn army with a bit of training and experience. Tanks are crew serviced, so is artillery, infantry of any sort rarely work alone, even hovercraft and VTOL are crew serviced. Only aerospace fighters and battlemechs are single-operator weapons systems. (Yes there ARE twin cockpit mechs but that’s mainly so Capellans don’t lose battlemechs to pilots who suddenly realize THEY are the state’s answer to “you and what army” and decide to go somewhere less Liao; because who wants to be a Capellan.). Name me another weapon that can turn any *single* person into a small force of nature after training. (Blah blah blah you could operate an artillery piece on your own. Arty’s great until someone with a baseball bat enters minimum range) THAT is why battlemechs caught on and that’s why we love them. They’re the ultimate Big Stick. And brother, there’s no walking soft in 20+ tons of steel.
Well the out of universe answer is "Giant robots. Now cue the Megas XLR theme". The setting's bread and butter is the Mechs, once that's established a lot of the reasons why have to fit that. Now in universe reasons are various: 1. House Cameron, the Terran Hegemony, needed to keep up to date and excel at various technologies against the other Houses. Its not like they can just expand in a direction with everyone at their borders. So they needed a "what the hell" moment and making a new weapons platform like a Mech would do it. 2. If you put the new weapons and armor on a tank, which eventually they did, you're still stuck with just that: a tank. Tanks require crews of more than 1 person. Tanks don't handle various terrains well. Tanks can't be used for stuff like construction easily. Tanks don't have a versatility like a Mech. With a Mech, you could send one warrior out with some supplies, energy based weapons and have them go dark, scouting and harassing far better than a small tank. Then you can have said Mech (if it has hands) to run, blow up stuff, snatch items, or overall be a menace. Afterwards it can be used for helping with things like construction or search and rescue better than a tank. 3. Going back to point 1, if you have successfully pulled off this "what the hell" moment on the enemy, you've also given yourself a great propoganda tool for your own people. Now you can have posters of the lone Mechwarrior, guarding the frontier, doing what they can to protect Terra. This sells well compared to a tanker crew I bet, really pulls on the heart strings of the people. Plus the other Houses will beg borrow or steal to get this stuff, giving you a revenue stream in time.
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Well in the game and in universe they still require multiple people for the bigger ones. In game its something like 1 per 15 tons. You're still dealing with the fact a Mech is taller, so it can see over hills better, able to be used outside of combat presuming it has hands, and handles various terrains better.
The tanks had auto cannons 5, their armor was only bar 7 so it was behind even the Mackie's primitive armor , but they were not worthless by any measure The mackies fusion powered large laser was the game changer. Cause it could slice through their armor and inflict crits. Their srm 4s and machine guns could still damage the Mackie. But since they got engaged in an open field by a more maneuverable enemy they got wasted. Obviously remote controlled machines were less prompt to react. But it was an exhibition, 1 machine with 1 pilot Vs 4 tanks and 12 crew. Logistics wise it's a game changer.
The Large Laser’s introduction year is 133 years before the Mackie test.
Another element to consider is the terror effect of seeing a Mackie on the battlefield. It's a huge highly visible robot armed to the teeth with high tech weapons, and it takes more than one direct hit to even slow it down. It takes a lot of cool nerves to remember you outnumber it, and even after you defeat one you have to ask yourself how many more of those monsters you will face before the war ends? When first deployed the Mackie tanked enemy morale, and won several battles by its mere presence. When enemy commanders and troops decided they really didn't want to find out if it lives up to its reputation.
One of the guys in my gaming group says it's stupid that mechs can just flip over tanks and rip turrets off in games. He's right, they should be able to do thaf.
Because of the Hegemony's military-industrial complex. 'Mechs were more expensive than tanks, so the designers of 'Mechs could be paid more per unit than if they just put the same tech on tanks. Plus, they had a monopoly on the design, and they could prevent other designers/factions (specifically the Great Houses) from emulating them, and thus the designers and the Hegemony could maintain their monopoly on this new technology.
Just good marketing. Didn't hurt that the thing actually worked as advertised.
Marketing.
Because it needed to be for the setting to happen.
Probably more a proof of concept thing. Yeah they were remote controlled tanks but they’re still packing 120mm cannons. Until that point the only thing to counter armor is better armor. Adding that same amount of armor to a tank would require a larger engine. That’s going to leave less space for weapons systems so you just end up chasing that balance. Also, lore reasons.
Logically the Mackie wouldn’t have been evolutionary for battlefield conditions unless it packed the hand actuators that later battlemechs have to allow them to assist in large scale logistical movements. Battlemechs require stabilizers and because of the extreme ground pressure given their high center of gravity, weight, and of course weight distribution they’re honestly wasteful as hell outside of the benefit of Myomer fibers not applicable to vehicles. You could fit more armor on a tank, with a weaker engine, alongside greater weapon systems, and have a vehicle capable of fighting across a much greater variety of difficult terrain given lower ground pressure. That is of course considering more realistic factors.
There wouldn't have been a successful IP. Dude.