Disagree, Ian showed a very high level of grappling imo.
He quickly advanced to mvp's back after taking him down and almost got the Rnc. He showed great ability with his guard when he failed his takedown, not letting mvp get any offence going. He had a good entry and went for the leglock, but bailed on it safely when he didnt get it. And finally he showed good control on mvp's back winning him the final round and thus the fight even though he didn't have both hooks in and he was high up.
The back control at the end was more a display of how bad mvp is grappling-wise IMO.
Anyway, he lost me when he didn't finish the rnc, it was there for the taking very easily. Shit fight all round but exactly what I expected.
I dislike Ian… like, a lot.
But! I have to say, yeah, I agree with this comment. For me, it’s not even about good/bad at the level he’s at, it’s more so that it is totally surprising that he showed that high of a tier of grappling for himself.
The problem is he couldn’t effectively counter MVP, and was significantly slower than a guy who’s career is nearer to the back end.
I don’t know how much longer that 0 holds in a deep division, but he did surprise me last night.
Idk man I train with a few people who've easily shat on elite MMA fighters in grappling, and people like that do use Reddit, they're not exactly uncommon
I gotta say, this sub reddit is an interesting place. Redditors range from black belts that say they suck and get crushed by XYZ to people saying of course redditors would take on top UFC fighters that train with some of the best grapplers.
Idk if you just don’t train in any good gyms but it’s not unusual for local mma fighters that compete in the UFC or similar orgs to train BJJ at BJJ clubs and not be the best there.
No shade to the guy, but it's clear he doesn't train in any good places just because of how he threw out "he's a judo black belt!"
Like, I've rolled with dozens of Judo black belts and there isn't any I haven't been able to submit at some point, and I am only slightly above mid-tier in my gym's hierarchy.
I'm not talking about the local "elite" hero. If you train at a big bjj gym it's not unlikely you've got competitors there that would beat most UFC fighters in straight grappling. I don't know why you think that wouldn't be the case- it's a specialist thing. Same with boxers, obviously. UFC fighters would beat up nearly all hobbyist boxers, but not even most elite amateurs in straight boxing (unless they were one themselves, uncommon)
Rich Clementi lives in my town and has a gym literally right across the street from the Gracie United my daughter goes to. I've seen Rich around. I feel like he bodies Ian today still.
There is money in boxing. Not in grappling. You can never compare the talentpool in boxing with jiu jitsu. 😂 You guys are all waaaay too overconfident. Good luck fucking any ufc top 15 fighters up in a nogi, maybe the women’s flyweight division you will have a chance
I disagree. Maybe one guy if you're at an academy with really high level guys who are nationally competitive, but that's way less common than you're making it seem here. I'd best most UFC guys without a black belt could out grapple most black belts. They're just so much more athletic, stronger, faster, smarter, etc on the mat. Same way that they're beating a lot of college wrestlers in wrestling if the rules are modified to make sense for them in grappling like the Ryan v. Nickal match.
I know Poreira gets memed for his grappling but I know he probably ragdolls 90+% of black belts and I've never even seen him take to the canvas
No I'm not 😎
I've grappled for 10 years. I've seen very high levels in both wrestling and bjj. Anyone who is an elite athlete and even a purple belt shits on most black belts
You think the best in the world are better than me, a random middle aged hobbyist? I just fuckin see red bro. I bet a multi-discipline black belt elite professional who is 40lbs larger than me and 20 years younger would get his ass handed to him. I’ve grappled with savages, bro.
Agree. But I never compared Ian Gary to an adcc competitor, I just said that he would still fuck up you and all the other local Gold Winners in grappling
And the best arm triangle defense is "answering the phone".
I'm sure Joe is a formidable grappler and still has an inquisitive mind, but he seems to have stopped learning new techniques a very long time ago.
Firas zahabi and craig jones both have pretty similar youtube videos on arm triangle escape, which both mirror what you are describing. That's my go to escape for arm triangle.
Agreed, used to answer the phone to no avail, now with that defense i have much more success at escapes. Still suck in that position, just not as much 😅
Yes and this is a great option for a lot of submissions where only your upper body is controlled. The force you generate from your legs/hips is incredible once you start drilling it. I use this method to get out of late stage kimuras and now I don’t rly fear them
Excellent escape. You *should* be aware there is a follow-up in-sleeve Ezekiel they can hit in the gi from you doing this escape.
Luckily none of my training partners have to worry about that cause I’m rarely thinking ahead.
I don’t think Daniel Cormier has ever had to defend a body triangle in his life for obvious, and rotund, reasons and Rogan hasn’t been on the mats in years, ofc neither of them know how to defend a body triangle bro.
The commentary is so bad these days man. DC does zero research. Joe just rambles on about Calf Kicks. He's like a parody of himself. Anik and Sanko are the only decent broadcasters
Maybe, but considering how he was completely unable to utilise his reach advantage standing I have come to believe that his long limbs were, in fact, just illusions.
How would it NOT? You think that counter doesn't work in MMA? Just because MVP isn't slick enough to catch it doesn't mean you should be crossing your feet.
Lol. No. The move works. Have you not had it done to you? Have you ever let go of a sub because you were being punched? Have you fought MMA? One time I ate u elbows to the ear for a guard pass and I didn't feel ANY of them because I was so focused on the pass. You think I'd let go of a sub from a couple punches? If you are connected to your opponent, it's VERY hard to throw a knockout strike. From any position. Knockouts are dynamic and happen from distance. And non-ko strikes in MMA are often completely ignored.
That's why I made it a question, because I didn't know if my answer was correct.
To answer your questions - no I haven't fought mma, but I'd imagine I'd probably let go of a mediocre sub from a shit position like back ankle lock to avoid getting punched in the ear repeatedly.
From a jiu jitsu standpoint, there's a pretty effective defense to this sub (push their head away and down to prevent them from hipping into your ankles) so even without striking not a lot of high level people are tapping to back ankle locks.
It's a completely different situation than a good sub from a good position. I could see eating punches to get the tap if I have a mounted triangle locked in.
You would let go of the sub... and still get punched in the ear. Dude is on your back. Letting go of the sub doesn't escape back control.
High level people aren't tapping to those back ankle locks because they don't get trapped in them. Not because they don't work on them.
I guess we just disagree about whether the back ankle lock is an effective submission. We agree it's from a poor position. Here's why I wouldn't tank punches to finish that sub: I'm not that great at jiu jitsu; I'm a blue belt with about 2.5 years experience, but I already, at this point in my jiu jitsu development, don't get too worried if someone catches my ankles crossed. I push their head away and uncross my feet, then try for rnc again or transition to something else.
It's possinle something about my body type or strength or something makes my defense to this sub more effective than most, but i would be surprised if it were so.
You will if they cross their feet... you act like the move just doesn't work if you have pain tolerance or something. It doesn't work on black belts because they don't cross their feet.
It's a common way to think about black belts and pros as some invincible creatures lol. Everybody makes mistakes and if you have a human body it cam be broken no matter how many degrees there are on your black belt
In my experience, the most likely way you're gonna catch a blackbelt is on some bullshit move where you catch them slipping. Feet crossed is one of the best ways out there! You think you're gonna armbar them from guard? Or just hit them with your favorite triangle entry? They seen't it! They might have not thought about that calf slicer though!
Even if an upper belt crosses their feet, it’s still super easy to escape the submission by releasing upper body control momentarily
Obvi not ideal, but any upper level practitioner should know this and can easily regain upper body control and still have hooks
If you train with upper belts that sometimes get caught with this move then they’re dumb
It doesn’t work on upper belts bc they know where to place their feet when their crossed. Crossing your feet isn’t an issue unless you do it like a dummy. Then you get tapped
You won't.
Any half competent black belt will apply stiff-arm pressure to the back of your head and make bridging into the break impossible.
Then, in MMA, they'll punch the fuck out of you with their free hand.
Obviously it will work mechanically but black belts won’t cross their feet in the wrong spots or will be aware of the attack coming. There’s a reason nobody has ever been caught with this in the UFC or in ADCC
I believe this is the case simply because in his old pods he would talk about his training regimen and always include BJJ, now he never mentions it despite having Roka, new wave, b team, and wherever Tim Kennedy trains all in his backyard.
I wonder if he's got some joint issues he doesn't mention or if because of his fame he only wants to do privates or something, but it is curious that he doesn't bring it up like he used to
I remember Rogan talking about a neck injury he had because of bjj and going around the world the get palette injections, stem cell injections and not sure what else. He also talked about using a neck traction device while writing comedy. At about the same time eddie bravo was having a ton of back problems because he had several discs that had just sort of dissapeared and he ended up getting some titanium discs which didnt work out. If I recall there was a video of Rogan returning to the mats to do gi at the machados. Since that time period i believe Rogan hasnt been evangelizing bjj as much as before. I think there is a certain point when its best to hang up the gi instead of having fused vertabrates. Im coming up on 44 and Im almost at that point. Its been enough injuries. I wish I had started sooner and hadnt taken as many breaks from bjj but being a small business owner amd having kids requires a lot.
52 years old and no desire to hang up my gi. I roll slower and more methodical now. Partly an age thing, but also the more I learn and the cleaner my technique gets, the less explosive I need to be.
Man most black belts don’t even know how to escape a body triangle. My last gym I asked about how to get out of a body triangle and I was shown the fucking ankle lock trap bullshit.
Gordon Ryan’s back escapes instructional exists, people! There is no reason to be ignorant of back escapes in 2024.
This was a world champion black belt.
Yeah I like the elbow wedge as needed as well. She showed it decently.
There are a bunch of great escapes. I almost prefer the triangle to hooks because at least then I know the legs aren't moving anymore. Almost.
I agree on the elbow as well but idk man most of the time this and similar escapes fail. It’s good to know, and cool when it works but body lock from the back is and should be gg go next most of the time.
You’re not wrong. When I get a body triangle on someone else, they are almost always fucked. Someone gets a body triangle on me I SHOULD be fucked.
But I spent about 3 months training back escapes for an hour after class 5 days a week with some training partners, and I’m very confident in my back escapes. Couple that with the fact that most people have garbage back control and rely on the opponent not knowing how to get out of a body triangle or how to fight off a mid/late stage RNC.
I have tons of training partners that will tap when I get an arm across their neck. There is so much more there to train - tuck the chin, peel the hand, get a hand inside, shrug the shoulders, turn the head, roll, turn the shoulders, remove hooks, the list goes on.
Plus the mentality that a lot of people have and espouse of “the best way to defend your back is to not let people take your back” which is obviously not correct. Its a different mentality, but it leads to having shit back defense and good everything else.
While I agree you should train all facets and understand that nothing is truly inescapable prevention is still the best defense. Doesn’t mean you won’t end up there sometimes and should definitely know how to defend yourself while on your back. I personally hate someone as equally skilled/experienced having side control on me because I have short arms so have probably trained the most in preventing it. I know how to get out still should someone be there but I don’t think the emphasis on prevention vs defense is necessarily a bad thing.
It's still fucking annoying when you ask how to defend something and the response is basically don't get there
Man I'm not very good and it's something I'll aim for but I'm going to end up there
Funny enough I have a partner who is GREAT at escaping the back. So good that I don't even use the straight jacket anymore with him. So I double down on the body triangle and he almost never escapes if I don't take too much risks
>But I spent about 3 months training back escapes for an hour after class 5 days a week with some training partners, and I’m very confident in my back escapes.
Okay now add someone elbowing and punching you in the head and lets watch all that technique go out the window as you go unconscious and bleed from your ears.
you can basically do the same kind of things stomping your feet on the side of the hips.
it's obviously not as good but it works. Double hooks are terrible aside back mount
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Yeah of course, if the opponent does not adress it, it's quite easy.
The thing is, a good guy will always hook the leg and make the start of the escape super difficult. And this is while having to defend strong attacks at the same time.
I think a lot of people who find success in the gym with this do not have training partners who do not hesitate at strangling through the jaw
It takes a while to strangle someone over their jaw/chin, and when the chin is tucked the strangle hand is usually necessarily further forward and easier to grab and peel. Getting a nice lock with both hands, without interference, over the jaw, is tough if the person is savvy and skilled enough to tuck and handfight.
But yeah, end of the day you’re probably fucked so might as well try!
If it were self defense or a real fight, you wouldn’t tell the guy to just give up. Gotta try to get out so you don’t die. (I don’t get in street fights)
Because it’s incredibly easy to switch the lock side in transition. You should be escaping with the lock on top, by scissoring your legs and scooping the top side lock foot with the inside of your top knee, and passing it off to your hand, getting your back to the floor
https://youtube.com/shorts/dtG7Mqoqax0?si=97nLOGDthpyjJ8OX
This is how you get out of a body triangle.
Yea like I get most of us know these escapes and the mechanisms and have pulled them off here and there but people are being really unreasonable suggesting this was some no brainer thing to get out of. He just failed and doing the one thing he had to do which is a little silly given belt and experience level.
I agree. Its a good heuristic to share with casual fans, but I think the criticism is just a symptom of Joe not being super up to date with the latest developments.
I usually get the lock to the bottom and as soon as it hits the mat i turn into the lock. Seems to work for me. Plus if its a strong body triangle getting the lock gets you just enough room for it to be not as comfortable.
With that said there's still stuff that can be done with the lock not on the mat. The calf slicer is one of them.
You CAN, get out doing that. But anyone good is going to continuously swap too a top lock when you do that in transition. It’s not reliable at all. Getting out that way also depends on ankle flexibility. You would not break my body triangle getting it to the floor…
https://youtube.com/shorts/dtG7Mqoqax0?si=97nLOGDthpyjJ8OX this is the only way you should be escaping a body triangle
Correct this is the ONLY WAY and anyone saying otherwise is getting tapped 99/100 times with the other crap I’m seeing here. Literally have drilled and been in this position hundreds of times and like even knowing how to get out it just ain’t working sometimes. There is a very good reason that giving your back up is considered the worst possible thing you can do…
Umm... They have to unlock the triangle to swap sides... That's your time to escape. I think you missed the whole point of the "get the lock to the bottom" escape.
Really sounds to me like most of you guys should be fighting in the UFC, or in the corner of UFC fighters instead of working at Applebees full time whilst training BJJ 4 hours a week.
I remember Jacare locking up body triangle from the guard in one of his UFC fights and Jake Shields did it too against Lombard. Maybe it was to prevent opponent for posturing up?
MVP survived on the mat with Holland who’s legitimately a very good grappler. He fought off all Garry’s choke attempts too. He’s a much better grappler especially defensively than most give him credit for
Maybe. I've never seen a bottom triangle amount to anything but more so Gary attempted the absolute worst short choke any of us have ever seen. Under the chin, dead to rights and couldn't get a lick of torque. The fact he's a UFC fighter and trains at Chute Box doesn't prove he can actually grapple, nor does one submission on the regional scene in 15 fights. Could he sub two stripe white belt guy hella? This fight didn't give me a lot of confidence for it.
MMA guy here, lot of bjj-only comments in here forgetting it’s an mma fight lol. DC’s comments weren’t accurate but what Rogan was saying was true.
Body lock around the hips keeps them from both posturing up and hitting you and also keeps them from being able to force half guard and hit you more. It also keeps them at a distance to not be able to reach your head and is a good set up for you on bottom to start landing elbows.
In jiujitsu yeah I can see why you’d think it’s pointless, but when strikes are involved a lot of guys do this.
Is it effective? Sometimes. But if it works it works
Not referring to closed guard. Referring to back control.
As you can see when i say “every fight, every time” Body triangles from the back occur every card all the time, and that’s when DC and Rogan consistently talk about them. a closed guard body triangle does not.
I wasn’t surprised to see mvp not making the correct moves for the body triangle bc like others have said I don’t think a lot of people even really know the technical way to handle it. What I did notice was that he was really putting his attention on hand control to stop the choke and the strikes from Ian which I thought was interesting. Strikes definitely change how you’re going to react
You do see it, constantly. There was literally a fighter on tonight’s card switching his triangle to the other side when his opponent tried to land on the lock side. Lopez did it multiple times when he had back control.
Are you saying that no one’s ever switched the body triangle side when someone’s landed on the lock side? If so, my previous comment addresses that. It’s comically easy to just switch the lock before your opponent lands on it, making joes advice stupid. You can also apply pressure to the back of the head, make room, and relock even if the opponent fully lands on it. Whatever point you’re trying to make is really stupid.
Not once have I disputed changing the lock from bottomside to topside.
I thoroughly suggest you reread my original question then carefully think about your response.
MAKE. SENSE.
Rogan's been saying the same thing about the body triangle since I started watching mma circa 2007 (and likely before). Not to mention that MVP had wrist control and was pinning Garry's right arm to the mat. If he turned to the other side, it becomes a lot easier for Garry to free that arm.
Someone should tell them to be better at their jobs, because half the time they are chatting like they’re catching up over a beer and the other half they are sharing biased takes and half assed mma opinions.
I wasn’t primarily referring to you, but can you explain to me what was said about the body triangle? I can’t imagine they would say anything too outlandish.
Mvp's grappling so bad it didnt really matter.
Ian Garry’s is only slightly better.
“IVE BEEN TRAINING WITH THE BEST GRAPPLER EVER”
He been doing hip escapes and in bottom Mount with the best grapplers in the game! Lmao
Both were absolute dog shit on the ground
Disagree, Ian showed a very high level of grappling imo. He quickly advanced to mvp's back after taking him down and almost got the Rnc. He showed great ability with his guard when he failed his takedown, not letting mvp get any offence going. He had a good entry and went for the leglock, but bailed on it safely when he didnt get it. And finally he showed good control on mvp's back winning him the final round and thus the fight even though he didn't have both hooks in and he was high up.
The back control at the end was more a display of how bad mvp is grappling-wise IMO. Anyway, he lost me when he didn't finish the rnc, it was there for the taking very easily. Shit fight all round but exactly what I expected.
I dislike Ian… like, a lot. But! I have to say, yeah, I agree with this comment. For me, it’s not even about good/bad at the level he’s at, it’s more so that it is totally surprising that he showed that high of a tier of grappling for himself. The problem is he couldn’t effectively counter MVP, and was significantly slower than a guy who’s career is nearer to the back end. I don’t know how much longer that 0 holds in a deep division, but he did surprise me last night.
It was classic British MMA grappling
They would still fuck all of you up in grappling 🤷♀️
Idk man I train with a few people who've easily shat on elite MMA fighters in grappling, and people like that do use Reddit, they're not exactly uncommon
I gotta say, this sub reddit is an interesting place. Redditors range from black belts that say they suck and get crushed by XYZ to people saying of course redditors would take on top UFC fighters that train with some of the best grapplers.
Well Ian Garry for example, is a judo black belt. You dont think he would toss your local dudes around?
...no. having a judo black belt doesn't give you much of an edge over an elite bjj guy
Aka. You just sit on the floor and accept the bottom position.
As is tradition.
Having a judo black belt will give you an edge when you are a top 15 mma fighter and you grappling the local ‘elite’ hero. Come on man 😂
Idk if you just don’t train in any good gyms but it’s not unusual for local mma fighters that compete in the UFC or similar orgs to train BJJ at BJJ clubs and not be the best there.
No shade to the guy, but it's clear he doesn't train in any good places just because of how he threw out "he's a judo black belt!" Like, I've rolled with dozens of Judo black belts and there isn't any I haven't been able to submit at some point, and I am only slightly above mid-tier in my gym's hierarchy.
I'm not talking about the local "elite" hero. If you train at a big bjj gym it's not unlikely you've got competitors there that would beat most UFC fighters in straight grappling. I don't know why you think that wouldn't be the case- it's a specialist thing. Same with boxers, obviously. UFC fighters would beat up nearly all hobbyist boxers, but not even most elite amateurs in straight boxing (unless they were one themselves, uncommon)
Rich Clementi lives in my town and has a gym literally right across the street from the Gracie United my daughter goes to. I've seen Rich around. I feel like he bodies Ian today still.
Rich submitted Anthony Rumble…
There is money in boxing. Not in grappling. You can never compare the talentpool in boxing with jiu jitsu. 😂 You guys are all waaaay too overconfident. Good luck fucking any ufc top 15 fighters up in a nogi, maybe the women’s flyweight division you will have a chance
I disagree. Maybe one guy if you're at an academy with really high level guys who are nationally competitive, but that's way less common than you're making it seem here. I'd best most UFC guys without a black belt could out grapple most black belts. They're just so much more athletic, stronger, faster, smarter, etc on the mat. Same way that they're beating a lot of college wrestlers in wrestling if the rules are modified to make sense for them in grappling like the Ryan v. Nickal match. I know Poreira gets memed for his grappling but I know he probably ragdolls 90+% of black belts and I've never even seen him take to the canvas
You seriously have no idea what you’re talking about lol
I've grappled for a decade
You’re a white belt
No I'm not 😎 I've grappled for 10 years. I've seen very high levels in both wrestling and bjj. Anyone who is an elite athlete and even a purple belt shits on most black belts
You think the best in the world are better than me, a random middle aged hobbyist? I just fuckin see red bro. I bet a multi-discipline black belt elite professional who is 40lbs larger than me and 20 years younger would get his ass handed to him. I’ve grappled with savages, bro.
Why are we acting like there’s nobody in this subreddit who isn’t an out of shape 40 year old dad?
Lmao idk what was that guy thinking when he weote that
There's a big difference between elite MMA fighter and elite grappler. A judo black belt doesn't change that dynamic
Agree. But I never compared Ian Gary to an adcc competitor, I just said that he would still fuck up you and all the other local Gold Winners in grappling
Gogo gaga
May also tell them that there’s no reason to excuse any MMA fighter at this point in history for lacking a jab.
And the best arm triangle defense is "answering the phone". I'm sure Joe is a formidable grappler and still has an inquisitive mind, but he seems to have stopped learning new techniques a very long time ago.
I don’t think he’s actually trained consistently in about a decade now.
You may not know it, but this is what peak nipperformance looks like. https://i.imgur.com/9JoFODb.jpeg
im curious what actually is the best defense to arm triangle? I only know the one where you swing your thumb down and pendulum your legs
Firas zahabi and craig jones both have pretty similar youtube videos on arm triangle escape, which both mirror what you are describing. That's my go to escape for arm triangle.
Agreed, used to answer the phone to no avail, now with that defense i have much more success at escapes. Still suck in that position, just not as much 😅
Yea I think that’s the one i was thinking about, saw it on craig jones instructional aswell (just stand up)
Yes and this is a great option for a lot of submissions where only your upper body is controlled. The force you generate from your legs/hips is incredible once you start drilling it. I use this method to get out of late stage kimuras and now I don’t rly fear them
Excellent escape. You *should* be aware there is a follow-up in-sleeve Ezekiel they can hit in the gi from you doing this escape. Luckily none of my training partners have to worry about that cause I’m rarely thinking ahead.
Chama 🗿
I don’t think Daniel Cormier has ever had to defend a body triangle in his life for obvious, and rotund, reasons and Rogan hasn’t been on the mats in years, ofc neither of them know how to defend a body triangle bro.
“Rotund reasons” lmaoo
The commentary is so bad these days man. DC does zero research. Joe just rambles on about Calf Kicks. He's like a parody of himself. Anik and Sanko are the only decent broadcasters
DC at least has the occasional good wrestling insights. Felder is good too
Imagine how long someone’s legs would need to be to get a body triangle on DC now
I don’t think slenderman could even do it
Hahaha
Stefan Struve could do it. He'd never actually get that position but he might be able to lock it.
Maybe, but considering how he was completely unable to utilise his reach advantage standing I have come to believe that his long limbs were, in fact, just illusions.
Semmy Schilt!
Rogan doesn’t train anymore?
But he does tren
So does his nipples.
It’s gender affirming care and helps out da tiddies
Listen to his commentary, he doesn't know modern grappling. Homeboy is stuck in 2002
I laughed so hard when he shouted "don't cross the feet!" when Garry had MVP's back, as if that would ever matter in an mma fight.
Joe edged me with rage bait leg kick comments just to finish me with the feet crossed comment
How would it NOT? You think that counter doesn't work in MMA? Just because MVP isn't slick enough to catch it doesn't mean you should be crossing your feet.
I guess because you can just punch your opponent in the side of the head if they try that crossed foot leg lock?
Lol. No. The move works. Have you not had it done to you? Have you ever let go of a sub because you were being punched? Have you fought MMA? One time I ate u elbows to the ear for a guard pass and I didn't feel ANY of them because I was so focused on the pass. You think I'd let go of a sub from a couple punches? If you are connected to your opponent, it's VERY hard to throw a knockout strike. From any position. Knockouts are dynamic and happen from distance. And non-ko strikes in MMA are often completely ignored.
That's why I made it a question, because I didn't know if my answer was correct. To answer your questions - no I haven't fought mma, but I'd imagine I'd probably let go of a mediocre sub from a shit position like back ankle lock to avoid getting punched in the ear repeatedly. From a jiu jitsu standpoint, there's a pretty effective defense to this sub (push their head away and down to prevent them from hipping into your ankles) so even without striking not a lot of high level people are tapping to back ankle locks. It's a completely different situation than a good sub from a good position. I could see eating punches to get the tap if I have a mounted triangle locked in.
You would let go of the sub... and still get punched in the ear. Dude is on your back. Letting go of the sub doesn't escape back control. High level people aren't tapping to those back ankle locks because they don't get trapped in them. Not because they don't work on them.
I guess we just disagree about whether the back ankle lock is an effective submission. We agree it's from a poor position. Here's why I wouldn't tank punches to finish that sub: I'm not that great at jiu jitsu; I'm a blue belt with about 2.5 years experience, but I already, at this point in my jiu jitsu development, don't get too worried if someone catches my ankles crossed. I push their head away and uncross my feet, then try for rnc again or transition to something else. It's possinle something about my body type or strength or something makes my defense to this sub more effective than most, but i would be surprised if it were so.
You won’t catch a black belt or professional fighter with that basic white belt counter
You will if they cross their feet... you act like the move just doesn't work if you have pain tolerance or something. It doesn't work on black belts because they don't cross their feet.
It's a common way to think about black belts and pros as some invincible creatures lol. Everybody makes mistakes and if you have a human body it cam be broken no matter how many degrees there are on your black belt
In my experience, the most likely way you're gonna catch a blackbelt is on some bullshit move where you catch them slipping. Feet crossed is one of the best ways out there! You think you're gonna armbar them from guard? Or just hit them with your favorite triangle entry? They seen't it! They might have not thought about that calf slicer though!
Even if an upper belt crosses their feet, it’s still super easy to escape the submission by releasing upper body control momentarily Obvi not ideal, but any upper level practitioner should know this and can easily regain upper body control and still have hooks If you train with upper belts that sometimes get caught with this move then they’re dumb
Thankyou.too many egos here
It doesn’t work on upper belts bc they know where to place their feet when their crossed. Crossing your feet isn’t an issue unless you do it like a dummy. Then you get tapped
You won't. Any half competent black belt will apply stiff-arm pressure to the back of your head and make bridging into the break impossible. Then, in MMA, they'll punch the fuck out of you with their free hand.
Bro when they go for the attack you just uncross them lmao
Dude... that's either the most white belt shit I have ever heard or the most black belt shit I have ever heard but it's nowhere in between.
Obviously it will work mechanically but black belts won’t cross their feet in the wrong spots or will be aware of the attack coming. There’s a reason nobody has ever been caught with this in the UFC or in ADCC
My man said ADC instead of ADCC
I believe this is the case simply because in his old pods he would talk about his training regimen and always include BJJ, now he never mentions it despite having Roka, new wave, b team, and wherever Tim Kennedy trains all in his backyard. I wonder if he's got some joint issues he doesn't mention or if because of his fame he only wants to do privates or something, but it is curious that he doesn't bring it up like he used to
Joint issues? More like joint surplus 🚬🚬🚬
Yeah that's a surprise to me. After a certain point there is no quitting.
He’s 56, his ride ended. I think he rolls too hard and always injures himself.
I think he hurt his shoulders with all the kettle bell swings and stuff. I saw him doing it and it hurt my shoulders.
Money
I remember Rogan talking about a neck injury he had because of bjj and going around the world the get palette injections, stem cell injections and not sure what else. He also talked about using a neck traction device while writing comedy. At about the same time eddie bravo was having a ton of back problems because he had several discs that had just sort of dissapeared and he ended up getting some titanium discs which didnt work out. If I recall there was a video of Rogan returning to the mats to do gi at the machados. Since that time period i believe Rogan hasnt been evangelizing bjj as much as before. I think there is a certain point when its best to hang up the gi instead of having fused vertabrates. Im coming up on 44 and Im almost at that point. Its been enough injuries. I wish I had started sooner and hadnt taken as many breaks from bjj but being a small business owner amd having kids requires a lot.
52 years old and no desire to hang up my gi. I roll slower and more methodical now. Partly an age thing, but also the more I learn and the cleaner my technique gets, the less explosive I need to be.
Rogan's torso is pretty similar to DC tbh...
Got that HGH gut.
It’s pasta bro
Yeah. Pasta HGH I need another jab.
Dave Palumbo has entered the chat…
rogans head is bigger and bigger every ppv he’s almost looking like shrek
🤣🤣🤣
He also cannot apply a body triangle for stumpy reasons
Should’ve calf sliced that mf
I was looking at that too. Garry tucked his foot in there for MVP to calf slice him.
Man most black belts don’t even know how to escape a body triangle. My last gym I asked about how to get out of a body triangle and I was shown the fucking ankle lock trap bullshit. Gordon Ryan’s back escapes instructional exists, people! There is no reason to be ignorant of back escapes in 2024. This was a world champion black belt.
I agree. It is surprising. And agree to gordon’s instructional on it.
Hilarious I just opened insta and got this reel. https://www.instagram.com/reel/C7Ukt4MvcgB/?igsh=ZTIxdzhnemFiaWxn It's a body triangle escape.
Yup. You want to scissor the legs more, and when really tight place your bottom side bicep under the knee, but basically it
Yeah I like the elbow wedge as needed as well. She showed it decently. There are a bunch of great escapes. I almost prefer the triangle to hooks because at least then I know the legs aren't moving anymore. Almost.
I agree on the elbow as well but idk man most of the time this and similar escapes fail. It’s good to know, and cool when it works but body lock from the back is and should be gg go next most of the time.
You’re not wrong. When I get a body triangle on someone else, they are almost always fucked. Someone gets a body triangle on me I SHOULD be fucked. But I spent about 3 months training back escapes for an hour after class 5 days a week with some training partners, and I’m very confident in my back escapes. Couple that with the fact that most people have garbage back control and rely on the opponent not knowing how to get out of a body triangle or how to fight off a mid/late stage RNC. I have tons of training partners that will tap when I get an arm across their neck. There is so much more there to train - tuck the chin, peel the hand, get a hand inside, shrug the shoulders, turn the head, roll, turn the shoulders, remove hooks, the list goes on. Plus the mentality that a lot of people have and espouse of “the best way to defend your back is to not let people take your back” which is obviously not correct. Its a different mentality, but it leads to having shit back defense and good everything else.
While I agree you should train all facets and understand that nothing is truly inescapable prevention is still the best defense. Doesn’t mean you won’t end up there sometimes and should definitely know how to defend yourself while on your back. I personally hate someone as equally skilled/experienced having side control on me because I have short arms so have probably trained the most in preventing it. I know how to get out still should someone be there but I don’t think the emphasis on prevention vs defense is necessarily a bad thing.
It's still fucking annoying when you ask how to defend something and the response is basically don't get there Man I'm not very good and it's something I'll aim for but I'm going to end up there
Funny enough I have a partner who is GREAT at escaping the back. So good that I don't even use the straight jacket anymore with him. So I double down on the body triangle and he almost never escapes if I don't take too much risks
>But I spent about 3 months training back escapes for an hour after class 5 days a week with some training partners, and I’m very confident in my back escapes. Okay now add someone elbowing and punching you in the head and lets watch all that technique go out the window as you go unconscious and bleed from your ears.
This. It's super hard to escape aside very obvious mistakes. And you have to deal with this while trying to not get choked out
I'm kinda hsort, I can't really body triangle almost anyone :-( ALAS.
you can basically do the same kind of things stomping your feet on the side of the hips. it's obviously not as good but it works. Double hooks are terrible aside back mount
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I am very guilty of this myself. I find the body triangle incredibly hard to escape tbh
https://youtu.be/RscLPT0F-DE?si=hj8_Wmn_9jVOBpDj
Yeah I saw it at the time but I have never watched the whole instructional
I’m gonna find you and body triangle you
lol. Fun fact most of my training taps come frome people who manage to do exactly this So you would have a very good chance
It's definitely difficult to perform against a good player, but is not technically complex or difficult to teach, I've found.
Yeah of course, if the opponent does not adress it, it's quite easy. The thing is, a good guy will always hook the leg and make the start of the escape super difficult. And this is while having to defend strong attacks at the same time. I think a lot of people who find success in the gym with this do not have training partners who do not hesitate at strangling through the jaw
I like to think my training partner trying to take my jaw off my face gives me extra incentive to work fast! But yes, its definitely hard to escape.
TBF even in this position it should be game over so it really does not hurt to try to do something about it...
It takes a while to strangle someone over their jaw/chin, and when the chin is tucked the strangle hand is usually necessarily further forward and easier to grab and peel. Getting a nice lock with both hands, without interference, over the jaw, is tough if the person is savvy and skilled enough to tuck and handfight. But yeah, end of the day you’re probably fucked so might as well try! If it were self defense or a real fight, you wouldn’t tell the guy to just give up. Gotta try to get out so you don’t die. (I don’t get in street fights)
I would like to see a bodytriangle escape video in the Gi.
What did they say? I missed the fight
What they say every fight. “You need to get the lock on the bottom”. You do not. Nor should you bother
Why shouldn’t you? I always do that
Because it’s incredibly easy to switch the lock side in transition. You should be escaping with the lock on top, by scissoring your legs and scooping the top side lock foot with the inside of your top knee, and passing it off to your hand, getting your back to the floor https://youtube.com/shorts/dtG7Mqoqax0?si=97nLOGDthpyjJ8OX This is how you get out of a body triangle.
I really need to work this instructional. Gordon is really a genius
The keyword here is need, and if they trap an arm the lock on the bottom is often death sentence.
Yea like I get most of us know these escapes and the mechanisms and have pulled them off here and there but people are being really unreasonable suggesting this was some no brainer thing to get out of. He just failed and doing the one thing he had to do which is a little silly given belt and experience level.
I agree. Its a good heuristic to share with casual fans, but I think the criticism is just a symptom of Joe not being super up to date with the latest developments.
Because it locks you in place. You want the lock on the open side and to get your top knee behind their outside foot.
They've been saying that for decades I swear. A surprising amount of ppl still believe in it because they've heard it so much on UFC broadcasts lol.
I usually get the lock to the bottom and as soon as it hits the mat i turn into the lock. Seems to work for me. Plus if its a strong body triangle getting the lock gets you just enough room for it to be not as comfortable. With that said there's still stuff that can be done with the lock not on the mat. The calf slicer is one of them.
You CAN, get out doing that. But anyone good is going to continuously swap too a top lock when you do that in transition. It’s not reliable at all. Getting out that way also depends on ankle flexibility. You would not break my body triangle getting it to the floor… https://youtube.com/shorts/dtG7Mqoqax0?si=97nLOGDthpyjJ8OX this is the only way you should be escaping a body triangle
Correct this is the ONLY WAY and anyone saying otherwise is getting tapped 99/100 times with the other crap I’m seeing here. Literally have drilled and been in this position hundreds of times and like even knowing how to get out it just ain’t working sometimes. There is a very good reason that giving your back up is considered the worst possible thing you can do…
Umm... They have to unlock the triangle to swap sides... That's your time to escape. I think you missed the whole point of the "get the lock to the bottom" escape.
You don’t know what you’re talking about
really? Id always assumed that was true but don't get into the position enough to know.
because these two goons continuously give the wrong advice every UFC card lol
I’m on it chief
Body lock in guard would be almost a complete stall if it weren’t for the striking aspect in MMA. The fight sucked, no aggression on either end.
Referring to the body triangle from the back
Which he also used in guard…..
Correct. Which also very rarely gets used, and clearly wasn’t what i was referring to if you chose to read the post “Every fight, every time”
Ohhh excuse me lol
So far all of these fights have been terrible.
One Pyfer KO and just dancing
Really sounds to me like most of you guys should be fighting in the UFC, or in the corner of UFC fighters instead of working at Applebees full time whilst training BJJ 4 hours a week.
I dunno why you are dissing working at Applebee's full time when that's what half the UFC roster does to make a living while they fight.
Because I’m a Chili’s guy.
That's where the other half of the UFC roster works.
Dammit
Great response
They really should. Nothing more cringey than some hobbyist brown or black belt thinking they know more than a ufc fighter about anything mma related
It's very evident that Joe has lost touch with BJJ, was a tough listen on tonights card.
Body triangle from closed guard lol dude is lucky mvp is a negative stripe white belt
I remember Jacare locking up body triangle from the guard in one of his UFC fights and Jake Shields did it too against Lombard. Maybe it was to prevent opponent for posturing up?
Carlos condit did it to versus miura
He taps you repeatedly btw lol
MVP survived on the mat with Holland who’s legitimately a very good grappler. He fought off all Garry’s choke attempts too. He’s a much better grappler especially defensively than most give him credit for
Maybe. I've never seen a bottom triangle amount to anything but more so Gary attempted the absolute worst short choke any of us have ever seen. Under the chin, dead to rights and couldn't get a lick of torque. The fact he's a UFC fighter and trains at Chute Box doesn't prove he can actually grapple, nor does one submission on the regional scene in 15 fights. Could he sub two stripe white belt guy hella? This fight didn't give me a lot of confidence for it.
I was hoping mvp would get the ankle lock when Ian body triangled him in closed guard .
MMA guy here, lot of bjj-only comments in here forgetting it’s an mma fight lol. DC’s comments weren’t accurate but what Rogan was saying was true. Body lock around the hips keeps them from both posturing up and hitting you and also keeps them from being able to force half guard and hit you more. It also keeps them at a distance to not be able to reach your head and is a good set up for you on bottom to start landing elbows. In jiujitsu yeah I can see why you’d think it’s pointless, but when strikes are involved a lot of guys do this. Is it effective? Sometimes. But if it works it works
Not referring to closed guard. Referring to back control. As you can see when i say “every fight, every time” Body triangles from the back occur every card all the time, and that’s when DC and Rogan consistently talk about them. a closed guard body triangle does not.
Somebody needs to get him to see why tf his hands are purple.
Hahah, I was thinking exactly the same
So glad someone said this
We had music blasting. What did they say?
What they always say. “You HAVE to switch hips get the lock to the mat”
Just gonna leave this here: https://youtu.be/lmmFp3b5RMM?si=hENFxoR1YitVqjvI
I wasn’t surprised to see mvp not making the correct moves for the body triangle bc like others have said I don’t think a lot of people even really know the technical way to handle it. What I did notice was that he was really putting his attention on hand control to stop the choke and the strikes from Ian which I thought was interesting. Strikes definitely change how you’re going to react
Yup.
Why’s no fighter ever switched their topside body triangle to bottomside then?
You do see it, constantly. There was literally a fighter on tonight’s card switching his triangle to the other side when his opponent tried to land on the lock side. Lopez did it multiple times when he had back control.
Not from top to bottom.
What do you even mean “from top to bottom”?
seriously bro...?
If you don’t mean switching the triangle from side to side I have zero idea what you mean in a context relevant to this post
TOPSIDE TO BOTTOMSIDE! I cannot be anymore clearer. Do you speak English?
Are you saying that no one’s ever switched the body triangle side when someone’s landed on the lock side? If so, my previous comment addresses that. It’s comically easy to just switch the lock before your opponent lands on it, making joes advice stupid. You can also apply pressure to the back of the head, make room, and relock even if the opponent fully lands on it. Whatever point you’re trying to make is really stupid.
Not once have I disputed changing the lock from bottomside to topside. I thoroughly suggest you reread my original question then carefully think about your response. MAKE. SENSE.
???? That makes zero sense. That would allow your opponent to immediately get their back to the floor. lol
If you’ve never seen someone switch the body triangle side, I don’t know what to tell you.
I have. But suggesting switching to a bottom side body triangle is even a possibility shows you know nothing about jiu jitsu.
I never suggested it; wtf you talking about?
Did anyone Els notice Ian Garry put himself in a calf slicer lol then he quickly undid his leg 🤣🤣
Was thinking the same thing. They kept trying to tell MVP how to get out completely wrong, it was driving me crazy.
For those curious: straight from the jackass’s mouth https://youtu.be/RscLPT0F-DE?si=hj8_Wmn_9jVOBpDj
Rogan's been saying the same thing about the body triangle since I started watching mma circa 2007 (and likely before). Not to mention that MVP had wrist control and was pinning Garry's right arm to the mat. If he turned to the other side, it becomes a lot easier for Garry to free that arm.
lol shut up
Did really want to see a calf splicer or even a toe hold.. but damn... call that fight a =
Someone should tell them to be better at their jobs, because half the time they are chatting like they’re catching up over a beer and the other half they are sharing biased takes and half assed mma opinions.
I don’t understand how you can possibly get on here and say that Joe Rogan and Daniel Cormier know nothing about BJJ
I didn’t say that, now did i?
I wasn’t primarily referring to you, but can you explain to me what was said about the body triangle? I can’t imagine they would say anything too outlandish.